<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Susan --</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>The film is one of Naruse's rare child-oriented films, with a low-status school boy and a more well-to-do school girl becoming friends and then parting (presumably forever).</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style:
normal;"><span>Definitely a harder title to construe than Naruse's earlier "Haru no mezame". ;~}</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">Thanks<br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>Michael</span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr
size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Susan Klein <sbklein@uci.edu><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> kinejapan@lists.service.ohio-state.edu <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 6, 2013 8:51 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [KineJapan] Naruse's "Aki tachinu"<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv7408116068"><div>
<div class="yiv7408116068moz-cite-prefix">Dick is correct that there are two "nu"
in Classical Japanese, one indicating negation (following the
mizenkei, <i>tatanu</i>) and one indicating completion (following
the renyokei, <i>tachinu</i>). So this has to be completion. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The confusion in the translation may come from the fact that the
completion nu is not necessarily past tense -- it could be
"began," "begins," or "will begin" -- it simply indicates
completion of the act. So without context, the translation could
be "Autumn has begun/arrived" (Autumn has Already Started) or
"Autumn begins/arrives" (The Approach/Arrival of Autumn). The
latter translated title nominalizes the verb, but that is just the
translator taking license.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Note also that the underlying sense of <i>tachinu</i> used with
seasonal phrases is often that you have just realized that the
seasons have changed. If used with autumn, metaphorically this
will often be linked to a realization that old age is creeping up,
etc. etc. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
This does not answer the question of which translated title better
fits the film, only that it is possible to see how the translators
would have arrived at their translations using nu as completion,
not negation.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
~~Susan<br clear="none">
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<pre class="yiv7408116068moz-signature">Susan Blakeley Klein
Associate Professor of Japanese Literature and Culture
HIB 479
Department of East Asian Languages and Literatures
University of California
Irvine, CA 92697-6000
email: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7408116068moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:sbklein@uci.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sbklein@uci.edu">sbklein@uci.edu</a></pre>
On 10/6/13 3:07 AM, Dick Stegewerns wrote:<br clear="none">
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<blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div><div><div class="yiv7408116068moz-cite-prefix">Dear Michael,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
My classical Japanese classes are quite some time ago, but since
this is the verb '<i>tatsu</i>' you would need 'tata-' (<i>izenkei</i>
or <i>mizenkei</i>, forgot which one) to make a negation
(modern <i>tatanai</i>, or slightly older <i>tatanu</i>),
while this more archaic form where -nu is added to 'tachi-'
(probably <i>renyokei</i>) is affirmative and thus should mean
that something has come about. Although '<i>tatsu</i>' can also
mean 'to leave'...<br clear="none">
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Best, <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Dick<br clear="none">
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Op 6-10-2013 6:46, Michael Kerpan schreef:<br clear="none">
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">I
think this may have come up before...<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The former standard translation of this film's tile seems to
have been something like "The Approach of Autumn" (and
something similar in French). IMDB now lists the English
title as "Autumn Has Already Started". Apparently the -nu in
tachinu can indicate either negation or that something is
starting... How on earth does one figure out which is the
correct meaning?<br clear="none">
<div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> </div>
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</blockquote>
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