From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 1 02:39:19 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:39:19 -0400 Subject: Why Mitoura? Message-ID: <00a701c132b0$d65c7160$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> "gwang" wrote > Hi Ron, > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? In Butterflies of Canada, the authors > give the following reason for regarding Mitoura as a subgenus of > Callophrys: "The tenuous nature of the characters separating these > 'genera' were illustrated by Warren and Robbins (1993) in their report > of a hybrid between 'Incisalia' augustinus and 'Callophrys' sheridanii. > In particualr, the valve 'cap' (a sclerotized thickened area at the apex > of the male valve), used to characterize Incisalia, is shown to be > present also in Mitoura and Callophrys, but expressed to a lesser > degree." (page 25) Is this somehow incorrect, or has some new evidence > been discovered which justifies this split? Are the other 'subgenera' > really separate genera? > > Peace, > Xi Wang > Hi, Good topic. I have actually been wondering when this topic would be brought up. No I have not addressed this publicly but am happy to do so - although email style dictates some brevity which is not my forte. This is such an important topic I want to answer your post to the general audience. You have asked the wrong question. The question is not- why is Mitoura a genus - but why the heck are some not recognizing it as a genus and lumping it (and other genera) under Callophrys? In the B.of Canada they give their reason - which is pretty lame. They base their decision primarily on the _"report"_ they referred to by Warren and Robbins. So lets look at this "report". 1) Why is it called a report? Because it is _not_ an article. 2) It is a "general note" - a secondary type of "report" below a truly professional level but just above a Newsletter type of report. And way way below the type of definitive scientific systematic paper that deals with taxa at the generic level. 3) The Note is basically one page of text, one page of pictures and one page of a chart. 4) The Note has nothing to do with assessing and concluding a generic level matter. It is the simple reporting of what the authors themselves called a "presumed hybrid" between what they referred to as Incisalia augustinus and Callophrys sheridanii. They _never_ call augustinus a Callophrys. The word Mitoura is mentioned once - in passing. They never render a verdict relative to generic rank or alignment - simply because it is not an "article" about that topic but a "note" on a "presumed hybrid". (Which by its picture looks much like a simple augustinus aberation to me.) Here is the very last sentence in that paper - their conclusion if you will. "While the presumed hybrid provides no information on phylogeny within Callophrys (genetic similarity is shared primative traits derived from the last common ancestor), it indicates that Incisalia and Callophrys are genetically very simalar, whether they are considered subgenera or genera." 5) This Note makes no congeneric conclusion WHATSOEVER. "Incisalia AND callophrys" is how they leave it. It is apparent that between the lines Warren and Robbins _opinion_ is that they lean to (or consider) these various species congeneric. Many others do not share that opinion. Nor is anyone obligated by any rule (i.e. ICZN) to follow it. Genera and subgenera are very subjective taxonomic categories. The question is _not_ why are Incisalia, Mitoura and others split out - the question is why the heck were they lumped after decades of stability as full genera based on some "note" on a "presumed" hybrid? There are various kinds of intergeneric etc hybrids. Just because one can cross Troides with Ornithoptera are we to now just eliminate one genus? Are we to just return to the days of only Thecla and Papilio? An augustinus X sheridanii cross in and of itself means nothing. Which, by the way, is not even a fact. The specimen was collected amid a 100% colony of augustinus. The authors acknowledged that the nearest sheridanii were a good 100 meters away. You should see a couple of the wild grynea aberrations I have - especially one which will be in our next TILS Newsletter. Let's talk about real Elfin science. In 1992 Dr. Kurt Johnson published a 141 page research paper on the Palaearctic "Elfin" Butterflies. In this European published generic level monograph he also briefly touched on the Elfins of the new world. Here is a real good question. Why did the authors of B. of Canada ignore this science? I bet they did not ever know of it - that's why. I have discussed this paper before on Leps-l and at one point posted the paper's entire generic layout of the North American species. It is Deciduphagus augustinus by the way since Johnson's paper. Butterflies of British Columbia 2001 by Guppy and Shepard utilizes Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The Massive 1998 Systematics of Western North Ameircan Butterflies utilizes Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The 1997 Butterfies of West Virginia by Allen employs Mitoura not Callophrys as the appropriate genus. Nielsen in the 1999 Butterflies & Skippers of Michigan likewise does not use Callophrys but Incisalia for the relative eastern taxa. There are several larger questions here. The informed opinion of some of us is that way too much taxonomy is now being presented in books for public consumption based only on the opinion of a "click" and not published science. This is taxonomy by decree - not research. Don't be surprised if science demonstrates that siva and grynea really are different species too. And people think they are getting stability. Xi, thanks again for opening up this topic. Don't be surprised if some professional jealously now pops its head up and the clicks begin to butt heads - or be butt heads. Ron Gatrelle, president The International Lepidoptera Survey http://tils-ttr.org ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 1 02:44:18 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:44:18 -0400 Subject: Alex Grkovich - personal Message-ID: <00d301c132b1$865c9860$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Alex, I have sent you a couple emails that have been returned as undeliverable. Please contact me if there has been a change in your mail system or I have something off here. Ron ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mjs323 at aol.com Sat Sep 1 02:11:42 2001 From: mjs323 at aol.com (MJS323) Date: 01 Sep 2001 06:11:42 GMT Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB3F0@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <20010901021142.04304.00005655@mb-mh.aol.com> To the Lep listers; Regarding the listing of the Cloudcroft Variable Checkerspot, Euphydryas anicia cloudcrofti, there was some communication in the the Lep Society News a few years ago explaining the thinking behind the listing. My memory of that is that at the time, there were very few known populations of the butterfly, and there was some potentially planned development of the community of Cloudcroft which could impact the best and biggest know population of the butterfly, near a campground near Cloudcroft. The decision was made to try to protect the butterfly because of this potential threat to this population, and the generally poorly known status of other populations of the subspecies. I have not heard any more info on this study, nor the results of the studies, and am not aware of any other actions regarding this subspecies. Mike Smith ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 1 03:43:16 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 03:43:16 -0400 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB3F0@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> <20010901021142.04304.00005655@mb-mh.aol.com> Message-ID: <000f01c132b9$c37444c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "MJS323" Subject: RE: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS > To the Lep listers; > Regarding the listing of the Cloudcroft Variable Checkerspot, Euphydryas > anicia cloudcrofti, there was some communication in the the Lep Society News a > few years ago explaining the thinking behind the listing. My memory of that is > that at the time, there were very few known populations of the butterfly, and > there was some potentially planned development of the community of Cloudcroft > which could impact the best and biggest know population of the butterfly, near > a campground near Cloudcroft. The decision was made to try to protect the > butterfly because of this potential threat to this population, and the > generally poorly known status of other populations of the subspecies. I have > not heard any more info on this study, nor the results of the studies, and am > not aware of any other actions regarding this subspecies. > > Mike Smith > Hi Mike, Is it not true that some do not consider cloudcrofti a valid subspecies? It seems I remember some associating it with hermosa? I know Scott lumps all kinds of western Euphydryas. My main reason for posting on this is in ref. to State law and responsibility. Should not the States be listing and protecting organisms - esp. when not on "Federal property"? States rights - and responsibilities. New Mexico has a reputation as a non Federal friendly state. Comments, anyone. Ron ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From idleweed at tusco.net Sat Sep 1 06:17:45 2001 From: idleweed at tusco.net (David Smith) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:17:45 GMT Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2@tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us> Message-ID: Hello, What everyone seems to overlook in these debates is that someone owns the land that you are talking about and very reasonably has plans for it. If that person cannot use the land in the way that they want to then the government should reemburse him (or her) for their loss. That is the way things have historically worked (at least in the U. S.) and that is the only honest way to do it. If the government does not reemburse the owner then they are thieves. Why should one person or organisation bear the burden of preserving a species, subspecies, or local population of an organism? Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of habitat preservation but I don't think another should bear the burden for what I want done. David Smith "Mike Quinn" wrote in message news:22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2 at tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us... > -----Original Message----- > From: NEWS at fws.gov [mailto:NEWS at fws.gov] > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:03 PM > To: fws-news at lists.fws.gov > Subject: [fws-news] SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT TO LIST > NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > ************************************************************** > This message is from the fws-news listserver. > ************************************************************** > > Chris Tollefson 202-208-5634 > > SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT > TO LIST NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > Interior Secretary Gale Norton today announced that the U.S. Fish and > Wildlife Service and several conservation organizations have reached an > agreement in principle that will enable the Service to complete work on > evaluations of numerous species proposed for listing under the Endangered > Species Act. > > Under this agreement with the Center for Biological Diversity, Southern > Appalachian Biodiversity Project, California Native Plant Society, and the > Biodiversity Legal Foundation, the Service will issue final listing > decisions for 14 species and propose eight more species for listing. The > Service also will be able to take action on four citizen petitions to list > species under the Act. The Service and the organizations have agreed to > extend deadlines for eight other critical habitat designations, thereby > making funds available for these actions. > > > > Carson wandering skipper (Nevada and California): Emergency Listing > > This species of skipper butterfly, Pseudocopaeodes eunus, is the only one > in it genus. It is found locally distributed in grassland habitats on > alkaline substrates in Nevada and California. The skipper depends on > saltgrass communities with a freshwater source nearby to support nectar > sources. This subspecies is threatened by habitat fragmentation, > degradation, and loss primarily due to agriculture, livestock grazing, and > urban development. Non-native plant invasion and impacts from proposed > water development projects which can alter local hydrology are also > threats. The genus of skipper butterfly is believed to include five > subspecies: One of the subspecies, P. e. obscurus, currently found in only > two populations, one in Washoe County, Nevada and the other in Lassen > County, California. A third population of P.e. obscurus known from Carson > City, Nevada is believed to have been extirpated from that site in recent > years. > > > Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly (New Mexico): Proposed Listing > Rule > > The Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly is restricted to the > vicinity of Cloudcroft in the Sacramento Mountains in Otero County, New > Mexico. The species is threatened by destruction and fragmentation of > habitat from private and commercial development, habitat degradation and > loss of host plants from grazing, encroachment of conifers and non-native > vegetation into non- forested openings, over-collection, and, due to its > limited range, vulnerability to local extirpations from extreme weather > events or catastrophic wildfire including fire suppression activities. > > Miami blue butterfly (Florida): 90-day Finding > > The Miami blue is a small butterfly with bright blue forewings on both > sexes, a wide dark outer border on the forewing in females, and an > orange-capped eyespot on the hindwing. This subspecies once occurred from > mainland peninsular Florida, as far north as Hillsborough and Volusia > counties, southward to south Florida and the Keys, including the Dry > Tortugas. > > *************************************************************************** > News releases are also available on the World Wide Web at > http://news.fws.gov > > Questions concerning a particular news release or item of > information should be directed to the person listed as the > contact. General comments or observations concerning the > content of the information should be directed to Mitch Snow > (Mitch_Snow at fws.gov) in the Office of Public Affairs. > > To unsubscribe from the fws-news listserver, send e-mail to > fws-news-request at lists.fws.gov. Enter "unsubscribe" in the subject field. > *************************************************************************** > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From 1_iron at msn.com Sat Sep 1 09:45:03 2001 From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:45:03 -0400 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2@tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us> Message-ID: <000601c132ec$4f901d80$54890a3f@1swch01> A heartfelt and big AMEN. Jim Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Smith" To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 6:17 AM Subject: Re: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS > Hello, > What everyone seems to overlook in these debates is that someone owns > the land that you are talking about and very reasonably has plans for it. If > that person cannot use the land in the way that they want to then the > government should reemburse him (or her) for their loss. That is the way > things have historically worked (at least in the U. S.) and that is the only > honest way to do it. If the government does not reemburse the owner then > they are thieves. Why should one person or organisation bear the burden of > preserving a species, subspecies, or local population of an organism? Don't > get me wrong, I am in favor of habitat preservation but I don't think > another should bear the burden for what I want done. > David Smith > "Mike Quinn" wrote in message > news:22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2 at tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: NEWS at fws.gov [mailto:NEWS at fws.gov] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:03 PM > > To: fws-news at lists.fws.gov > > Subject: [fws-news] SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT TO LIST > > NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > > > > ************************************************************** > > This message is from the fws-news listserver. > > ************************************************************** > > > > Chris Tollefson 202-208-5634 > > > > SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT > > TO LIST NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > > Interior Secretary Gale Norton today announced that the U.S. Fish and > > Wildlife Service and several conservation organizations have reached an > > agreement in principle that will enable the Service to complete work on > > evaluations of numerous species proposed for listing under the Endangered > > Species Act. > > > > Under this agreement with the Center for Biological Diversity, Southern > > Appalachian Biodiversity Project, California Native Plant Society, and the > > Biodiversity Legal Foundation, the Service will issue final listing > > decisions for 14 species and propose eight more species for listing. The > > Service also will be able to take action on four citizen petitions to list > > species under the Act. The Service and the organizations have agreed to > > extend deadlines for eight other critical habitat designations, thereby > > making funds available for these actions. > > > > > > > > Carson wandering skipper (Nevada and California): Emergency Listing > > > > This species of skipper butterfly, Pseudocopaeodes eunus, is the only one > > in it genus. It is found locally distributed in grassland habitats on > > alkaline substrates in Nevada and California. The skipper depends on > > saltgrass communities with a freshwater source nearby to support nectar > > sources. This subspecies is threatened by habitat fragmentation, > > degradation, and loss primarily due to agriculture, livestock grazing, and > > urban development. Non-native plant invasion and impacts from proposed > > water development projects which can alter local hydrology are also > > threats. The genus of skipper butterfly is believed to include five > > subspecies: One of the subspecies, P. e. obscurus, currently found in > only > > two populations, one in Washoe County, Nevada and the other in Lassen > > County, California. A third population of P.e. obscurus known from > Carson > > City, Nevada is believed to have been extirpated from that site in recent > > years. > > > > > > Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly (New Mexico): Proposed Listing > > Rule > > > > The Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly is restricted to the > > vicinity of Cloudcroft in the Sacramento Mountains in Otero County, New > > Mexico. The species is threatened by destruction and fragmentation of > > habitat from private and commercial development, habitat degradation and > > loss of host plants from grazing, encroachment of conifers and non-native > > vegetation into non- forested openings, over-collection, and, due to its > > limited range, vulnerability to local extirpations from extreme weather > > events or catastrophic wildfire including fire suppression activities. > > > > Miami blue butterfly (Florida): 90-day Finding > > > > The Miami blue is a small butterfly with bright blue forewings on both > > sexes, a wide dark outer border on the forewing in females, and an > > orange-capped eyespot on the hindwing. This subspecies once occurred from > > mainland peninsular Florida, as far north as Hillsborough and Volusia > > counties, southward to south Florida and the Keys, including the Dry > > Tortugas. > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > News releases are also available on the World Wide Web at > > http://news.fws.gov > > > > Questions concerning a particular news release or item of > > information should be directed to the person listed as the > > contact. General comments or observations concerning the > > content of the information should be directed to Mitch Snow > > (Mitch_Snow at fws.gov) in the Office of Public Affairs. > > > > To unsubscribe from the fws-news listserver, send e-mail to > > fws-news-request at lists.fws.gov. Enter "unsubscribe" in the subject field. > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From nardoz at earthlink.net Sat Sep 1 10:10:00 2001 From: nardoz at earthlink.net (Dale Clark) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:10:00 -0500 Subject: William H. Howe Message-ID: <008901c132ef$ca8b8bc0$93e9f5d1@dalesmachine> Does anyone know how to get in contact with William H. Howe, author of Butterflies of Northe America? I met him a couple of years ago in Dallas when he was at the Museum of Natural History and he had illustrations from his book for sale. I wasn't able to purchase any at that time but would like to see if he has any available. Anyone have a mailing address for him? Thanks Dale Clark Dallas County Lepidopterists' Society Dallas, TX www.dallasbutterflies.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010901/d6a2ef85/attachment.html From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 1 13:39:15 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 13:39:15 -0400 Subject: Heathii aberations Message-ID: <003e01c1330d$054b58e0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> When looking at the J. of the Lepid. Society Vol. 47:3 general notes section, I saw that in addition to the note by Warren and Robbins on a hybrid there is one by John Calhoun figuring a heathii aberration of Mitoura grynea sweadneri. This reminded me that about 25 years ago Steve Roman and I were collecting grynea smialcis on Edisto Island South Carolina and came across two such individuals. Steve caught a specimen and called to me and said hey look at this. I felt awe at the specimen followed by envy. He had come up from Florida and this was "in my back yard". Less than a minute later the next specimen I netted was also the same basic aberation! They were both males and almost identical - his was more symetrical. One can only speculate that these two were not the only ones present. I mean, what are the odds that only two existed there and two Lepsters caught both - within 60 seconds? A couple years later in 1977 while collecting smilacis in Bryan Co., GA I took a very unusual aberation that words could not do justice to. The best comparison I can make is to the ventral of Callophrys s. comstocki - with tails. Ron ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Sat Sep 1 21:22:07 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:22:07 -0500 Subject: Why Mitoura? In-Reply-To: <00a701c132b0$d65c7160$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901195953.00a6dde0@mail.utexas.edu> Ron, In 1982 (JLS36:10) I noted a ventrally-green-scaled var. of *C. (Incisalia) solatus* in Austin TX. At the time I seriously considered the possibility that it was a wild hybrid of *solatus* with *C. (Mitoura) sweadneri*. I discarded this possibility because there were no morphological characters other than the structurally colored scales, that would support this. I regret that this specimen was an influence in my deciding to follow the "conservative" course of considering both species congeneric in *Callophrys*, but in separate subgenera. Since that time a lot of "Callophri" have passed under my eyes, coming from points between Guatemala and Quebec (including many produced by that gifted collector, John Kemner) and I too am astounded by the plasticity of the genera in this complex and the frequent expression of parallel traits. Those two species from the 1982 report I now determine as *Deciduphagus solatus* and *Mitoura siva*? undescribed subspecies. .............Chris Durden (Representing my current opinion, not the consensus of a clique.) At 02:39 AM 9/1/2001 -0400, you wrote: >"gwang" wrote > > Hi Ron, > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? In Butterflies of Canada, the authors > > give the following reason for regarding Mitoura as a subgenus of > > Callophrys: "The tenuous nature of the characters separating these > > 'genera' were illustrated by Warren and Robbins (1993) in their report > > of a hybrid between 'Incisalia' augustinus and 'Callophrys' sheridanii. > > In particualr, the valve 'cap' (a sclerotized thickened area at the apex > > of the male valve), used to characterize Incisalia, is shown to be > > present also in Mitoura and Callophrys, but expressed to a lesser > > degree." (page 25) Is this somehow incorrect, or has some new evidence > > been discovered which justifies this split? Are the other 'subgenera' > > really separate genera? > > > > Peace, > > Xi Wang > > > >Hi, >Good topic. I have actually been wondering when this topic would be brought >up. >good 100 meters away. You should see a couple of the wild grynea >aberrations I have - especially one which will be in our next TILS >Newsletter. > Let's talk about real Elfin science. In 1992 Dr. Kurt Johnson published >a 141 page research paper on the Palaearctic "Elfin" Butterflies. In this >European published generic level monograph he also briefly touched on the >Elfins of the new world. Here is a real good question. Why did the authors >of B. of Canada ignore this science? I bet they did not ever know of it - >that's why. I have discussed this paper before on Leps-l and at one point >posted the paper's entire generic layout of the North American species. It >is Deciduphagus augustinus by the way since Johnson's paper. > Butterflies of British Columbia 2001 by Guppy and Shepard utilizes >Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The Massive 1998 Systematics of Western >North Ameircan Butterflies utilizes Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The >1997 Butterfies of West Virginia by Allen employs Mitoura not Callophrys as >the appropriate genus. Nielsen in the 1999 Butterflies & Skippers of >Michigan likewise does not use Callophrys but Incisalia for the relative >eastern taxa. > There are several larger questions here. The informed opinion of some >of us is that way too much taxonomy is now being presented in books for >public consumption based only on the opinion of a "click" and not published >science. This is taxonomy by decree - not research. Don't be surprised if >science demonstrates that siva and grynea really are different species too. >And people think they are getting stability. > Xi, thanks again for opening up this topic. Don't be surprised if some >professional jealously now pops its head up and the clicks begin to butt >heads - or be butt heads. > >Ron Gatrelle, president >The International Lepidoptera Survey >http://tils-ttr.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From beebuzz at kiva.net Sun Sep 2 02:10:53 2001 From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 01:10:53 -0500 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220@b.pop.kiva.net> Just returned from a "collecting" trip (really an "oh my, looky at that!") trip, in which I identified some larvae using the Caterpillars of Eastern Forests book. This book makes me wonder: Just how did the authors, or anyone else, obtain some of these larvae? For instance, I have never seen a Tiger Swallowtail larva, and of most sphinx moths, and have no idea how I could do so (besides buying them). The female TS won't lay eggs in a paper bag like a moth. Some butterflies you can follow her and pick up the eggs, but I never see TS engaged in egg-laying, just flying rapidly along way up in the trees (usually I can't even keep them in view very long). With cherry and other host trees, 99% of the plant is out of reach, so I don't think searching for larvae would work well, unless you could do it from a cherry picker. So how the heck do people ever see this caterpillar, other than by pure chance? Same question, for those kinds of moths that won't lay eggs in a paper bag, and whose larvae feed up in trees. I'm having caterpillar envy! Thanks, Liz Day Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA daylight at kiva.net Larvae seen in Posey Co., extreme SW Indiana: monarch on that vining milkweed silver-spotted skipper (egg, too) viceroy question mark buckeye (chrysalis too) painted lady (??) unknown lycaenid on wingstem attended by ants smeared dagger moth (?) on polygonum Virginia bear arctiid moth (unbelievably abundant) poplar tentmaker prominent moth (defoliating everything in sight) 2 different large twig-mimicking inchworms on sandbar willow At New Harmony, IN, across from the Atheneum, is a field with apple trees and oodles of 6 or 7 kinds of nymphalids feeding on the rotting fruit including tawny emperor. These butterflies were easy to pick up on your finger. Nearby a garden with balsam is loaded with pipevine swallowtails. At Mt. Vernon, IN, I had a dramatic look at a pink-spotted sphinx moth drinking from evening primrose around midnight after a rain. Its eyes blazed like neon rubies in my flashlight beam through 20 feet of fog and mist. It flew and hovered with the tongue hanging out like an elephant's trunk. This tongue must have been 3-4" long; the moth barely needed to approach to reach the masses of flowers, which smelled faintly like honeysuckle. Amazing. ------------------------------------------------------------- Liz Day Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA (40 N, ~86 W) Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia miserulata). USDA zone 5b. Winters ~20F, summers ~85F. Formerly temperate deciduous forest. daylight at kiva.net www.kiva.net/~daylight ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mungojeerie at hotmail.com Sun Sep 2 03:12:11 2001 From: mungojeerie at hotmail.com (Ryan Vandermoor) Date: 2 Sep 2001 07:12:11 GMT Subject: Questions about Arizona Mothing Message-ID: <9msm4b$l9k$0@206.97.58.71> Hello all, I'm currently staying in s.e. Arizona and will be until the 3 of October. I'm staying in Fairbank which is between whetstone and tombstone. Unfortunately I have limited vehicle access. We were planning on setting up a light trap somewhere and have a few questions. Can anyone suggest a decent place that is within 1.5-2 hours driving distance from when I am? As well is it really beneficial to run both white and UV light? I do not have much in the way of night collecting gear but was thinking of renting a generator and if possible a merc of multi vapor light... not sure where from though. If worse comes to worse I can use a regular light bulb. I run a light trap in our yard everynight but don't seem to get too much of interest. Another thing I was wondering about is if anyone knows how or where I can get my hands on Black witch larvae. I have seen a few adults but understand that they are largely immigrants. Any suggestions of ideas would be of great assistance. Thanks in advance. Ryan Vandermoor mungojeerie at hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Sun Sep 2 12:29:52 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 09:29:52 -0700 Subject: Economy Class Curatorial Award Message-ID: <3B925E7F.34696D8D@mail.mcn.org> Hi: The following is my semi-fatuous submission for this years Economy Class Curatorial Award: Are you tired of having to maintain a constant humidity for the entire basement? Are you tired of the rising cost of metal cabinets? Does your Board of Trustees wince when you give your quarterly report? Try ?Used Refrigerators?! They have those bug proof magnetic gasket doors. They?re cheap or free, pull out the guts & a little tub caulking or Bondo on the various flashings will make them bug proof, & they can be linked in series or parallel with flexible conduit or stovepipe to a single small dehumidifier. They also come in assorted colors to take that tired grey-green curse off the storage room. (a few pictures of kitties & duckies on the doors helps too). So if YOUR board of trustees moans every time you ask for more storage, Tell them about ?Used Refrigerators? and be ready for the applause! Another advantage is that the interiors usually have room left over for LARGE trays of silica gel, the summer storage of your winter woolens, or for other nighttime projects. (ask about my recipe for Museum Jerky, regular Napthalene flavor or new Classic Natron) Bill PS: the interior plastic is affected by napthalene, (if you use it), but enameled tin liners w/ plywood doorskin to replace the trim works arn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jrlyons at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 2 13:58:59 2001 From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:58:59 -0500 Subject: Unusual lepidoptera behavior Message-ID: <3B927363.478CB95B@bellsouth.net> but perhaps understandable ... http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jrlyons/vwp?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.dnm=The+Day.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/jrlyons/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bPhoto%2bAlbum%26.src=ph%26.view=t ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From xiwang at sprint.ca Sun Sep 2 15:15:51 2001 From: xiwang at sprint.ca (Xi_Wang) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:15:51 -0400 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220@b.pop.kiva.net> Message-ID: <3B928567.4634@sprint.ca> Actually, I've wondered about that too. Does anyone know how one can induce a female tiger swallowtail to lay eggs in captivity? Peace, Xi Wang Liz Day wrote: > > Just returned from a "collecting" trip (really an "oh my, looky at that!") > trip, in which I identified some larvae using the Caterpillars of Eastern > Forests book. > > This book makes me wonder: Just how did the authors, or anyone else, > obtain some of these larvae? > > For instance, I have never seen a Tiger Swallowtail larva, and of most > sphinx moths, and have no idea how I could do so (besides buying > them). The female TS won't lay eggs in a paper bag like a moth. Some > butterflies you can follow her and pick up the eggs, but I never see TS > engaged in egg-laying, just flying rapidly along way up in the trees > (usually I can't even keep them in view very long). With cherry and other > host trees, 99% of the plant is out of reach, so I don't think searching > for larvae would work well, unless you could do it from a cherry > picker. So how the heck do people ever see this caterpillar, other than by > pure chance? > > Same question, for those kinds of moths that won't lay eggs in a paper bag, > and whose larvae feed up in trees. I'm having caterpillar envy! > > Thanks, > Liz Day > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA > daylight at kiva.net > > Larvae seen in Posey Co., extreme SW Indiana: > monarch on that vining milkweed > silver-spotted skipper (egg, too) > viceroy > question mark > buckeye (chrysalis too) > painted lady (??) > unknown lycaenid on wingstem attended by ants > smeared dagger moth (?) on polygonum > Virginia bear arctiid moth (unbelievably abundant) > poplar tentmaker prominent moth (defoliating everything in sight) > 2 different large twig-mimicking inchworms on sandbar willow > > At New Harmony, IN, across from the Atheneum, is a field with apple trees > and oodles of 6 or 7 kinds of nymphalids feeding on the rotting fruit > including tawny emperor. These butterflies were easy to pick up on your > finger. Nearby a garden with balsam is loaded with pipevine swallowtails. > > At Mt. Vernon, IN, I had a dramatic look at a pink-spotted sphinx moth > drinking from evening primrose around midnight after a rain. Its eyes > blazed like neon rubies in my flashlight beam through 20 feet of fog and > mist. It flew and hovered with the tongue hanging out like an elephant's > trunk. This tongue must have been 3-4" long; the moth barely needed to > approach to reach the masses of flowers, which smelled faintly like > honeysuckle. Amazing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Liz Day > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA (40 N, ~86 W) > Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia > miserulata). > USDA zone 5b. Winters ~20F, summers ~85F. Formerly temperate deciduous > forest. > daylight at kiva.net > www.kiva.net/~daylight > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Sun Sep 2 20:54:02 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:54:02 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae Message-ID: > Does anyone know how one can induce a female tiger swallowtail to lay > eggs in captivity? The usual method is to cage the butterfly with the foodplant, and provide warmth and sunlight. That doesn't always work--but it works in many cases. I've had good luck with _Nymphalis antiopa_ (Mourning Cloak), _Polygonia faunus_ (Green Comma), _P. gracilis_ (Hoary Anglewing), and _Papilio machaon_ (Old World Swallowtail). The only problem is finding out what an acceptable foodplant might be for the species involved, but there's a lot of information on that topic in the literature. Tiger Swallowtail larvae will feed on a wide variety of plants, including poplar, willow, alder, birch, ash, cherry, sassafras, heaths, and others. There will be regional variations in preferred foods. Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From beebuzz at kiva.net Sun Sep 2 21:05:13 2001 From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 20:05:13 -0500 Subject: Caterpillars of Eastern Forests, how to get In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010902200245.00a904b0@b.pop.kiva.net> It's a govt booklet. Call 970-295-5839 and order it, publication # FHTET 96-34. It's free. To order on the web: http://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/technology/publications.html. Specify order no. FHTET-96-34 It's outstanding. Cheers, Liz ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Sun Sep 2 22:40:15 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 21:40:15 -0500 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae In-Reply-To: <3B928567.4634@sprint.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220@b.pop.kiva.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010902213801.00a5a380@mail.utexas.edu> I think you need a room-sized insectary in sunlight for part of the day with potted saplings of a selection of candidate larval foodplants. I have not built mine yet. .............Chris Durden At 03:15 PM 9/2/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Actually, I've wondered about that too. Does anyone know how one can >induce a female tiger swallowtail to lay eggs in captivity? > >Peace, >Xi Wang > >Liz Day wrote: > > > > Just returned from a "collecting" trip (really an "oh my, looky at that!") > > trip, in which I identified some larvae using the Caterpillars of Eastern > > Forests book. > > > > This book makes me wonder: Just how did the authors, or anyone else, > > obtain some of these larvae? > > > > For instance, I have never seen a Tiger Swallowtail larva, and of most > > sphinx moths, and have no idea how I could do so (besides buying > > them). The female TS won't lay eggs in a paper bag like a moth. Some > > butterflies you can follow her and pick up the eggs, but I never see TS > > engaged in egg-laying, just flying rapidly along way up in the trees > > (usually I can't even keep them in view very long). With cherry and other > > host trees, 99% of the plant is out of reach, so I don't think searching > > for larvae would work well, unless you could do it from a cherry > > picker. So how the heck do people ever see this caterpillar, other than by > > pure chance? > > > > Same question, for those kinds of moths that won't lay eggs in a paper bag, > > and whose larvae feed up in trees. I'm having caterpillar envy! > > > > Thanks, > > Liz Day > > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA > > daylight at kiva.net > > > > Larvae seen in Posey Co., extreme SW Indiana: > > monarch on that vining milkweed > > silver-spotted skipper (egg, too) > > viceroy > > question mark > > buckeye (chrysalis too) > > painted lady (??) > > unknown lycaenid on wingstem attended by ants > > smeared dagger moth (?) on polygonum > > Virginia bear arctiid moth (unbelievably abundant) > > poplar tentmaker prominent moth (defoliating everything in sight) > > 2 different large twig-mimicking inchworms on sandbar willow > > > > At New Harmony, IN, across from the Atheneum, is a field with apple trees > > and oodles of 6 or 7 kinds of nymphalids feeding on the rotting fruit > > including tawny emperor. These butterflies were easy to pick up on your > > finger. Nearby a garden with balsam is loaded with pipevine swallowtails. > > > > At Mt. Vernon, IN, I had a dramatic look at a pink-spotted sphinx moth > > drinking from evening primrose around midnight after a rain. Its eyes > > blazed like neon rubies in my flashlight beam through 20 feet of fog and > > mist. It flew and hovered with the tongue hanging out like an elephant's > > trunk. This tongue must have been 3-4" long; the moth barely needed to > > approach to reach the masses of flowers, which smelled faintly like > > honeysuckle. Amazing. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Liz Day > > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA (40 N, ~86 W) > > Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia > > miserulata). > > USDA zone 5b. Winters ~20F, summers ~85F. Formerly temperate deciduous > > forest. > > daylight at kiva.net > > www.kiva.net/~daylight > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Sun Sep 2 23:03:08 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:03:08 -0400 Subject: Unbiased souls Message-ID: <3B92F2EB.5C2015A0@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Ron wrote compellingly about his taxonomic committee and the membership of "unbiased" persons. I am always skeptical about "unbiased" . I wonder if he has a definition of this with which all could aggree. Do it mean "without opinion" or "without experience" or "unsure of what is right or wrong". I suspect that most of us have biases. Perhaps it would be useful to be assured that individuals laid their biases on the table rather than pretending that they were checked at the door. Being aware of ones biases and acknowledging them is particularly helpful. For example, can someone be truly unbiased about being a lumper or a splitter. For example, my bias is, "when in doubt split". Lumping invariably (I think) results in a loss of information [even if the lumper turns out to be right]. Who wants to study a subspecies anyways [yet that's what we usually study when we think we are studying behavior or physiology or ecology of "a species". And one the molecular systematists tell us that taxon a is or isn't specifically distinct from taxon b because of x % genome difference, isn't that mere inserting a new bias (that there is a relatively constant criterion across taxa, based on a fragment of the genomic differentiation). Mike Gochfeld . ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Sun Sep 2 23:06:12 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:06:12 -0400 Subject: South East Message-ID: <3B92F3A3.5359494E@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Ron wrote that the southeastern U.S. isn't as homogenous as some people think. IN collect ecology I learned about the intricate physiognomy of the western states with mountain ranges and canyons isolating populations and turning them into species. This was presented in marked contrast to the homogeneous Eastern Deciduous Forest and the Prairies. After working for several years at the Savannah River site (unfortunately not on leps), I can second Ron's email about the mosaidc of habitats that occur in that vicinity. Mike Gochfeld ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From SUNSOL at prodigy.net Sun Sep 2 22:44:20 2001 From: SUNSOL at prodigy.net (Sunsol) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 02:44:20 GMT Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220@b.pop.kiva.net> Message-ID: <88Ck7.23286$yG5.3257902333@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com> Liz, maybe short trees would work. :) I have a neighbor with willow out in front of her house. She has raised Western Tiger Swallowtails several times. I planted a cherry leaved holly years ago. I finally found Pale swallowtail eggs last year. This year, I actually saw a female laying eggs and was able to collect two. I have a caterpillar on my kitchen window sill right now. It seems late in the season. I hope it will develop okay. Sally Liz Day wrote in message news:4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220 at b.pop.kiva.net... > Just returned from a "collecting" trip (really an "oh my, looky at that!") > trip, in which I identified some larvae using the Caterpillars of Eastern > Forests book. > > This book makes me wonder: Just how did the authors, or anyone else, > obtain some of these larvae? > > For instance, I have never seen a Tiger Swallowtail larva, and of most > sphinx moths, and have no idea how I could do so (besides buying > them). The female TS won't lay eggs in a paper bag like a moth. Some > butterflies you can follow her and pick up the eggs, but I never see TS > engaged in egg-laying, just flying rapidly along way up in the trees > (usually I can't even keep them in view very long). With cherry and other > host trees, 99% of the plant is out of reach, so I don't think searching > for larvae would work well, unless you could do it from a cherry > picker. So how the heck do people ever see this caterpillar, other than by > pure chance? > > Same question, for those kinds of moths that won't lay eggs in a paper bag, > and whose larvae feed up in trees. I'm having caterpillar envy! > > Thanks, > Liz Day > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA > daylight at kiva.net > > > Larvae seen in Posey Co., extreme SW Indiana: > monarch on that vining milkweed > silver-spotted skipper (egg, too) > viceroy > question mark > buckeye (chrysalis too) > painted lady (??) > unknown lycaenid on wingstem attended by ants > smeared dagger moth (?) on polygonum > Virginia bear arctiid moth (unbelievably abundant) > poplar tentmaker prominent moth (defoliating everything in sight) > 2 different large twig-mimicking inchworms on sandbar willow > > At New Harmony, IN, across from the Atheneum, is a field with apple trees > and oodles of 6 or 7 kinds of nymphalids feeding on the rotting fruit > including tawny emperor. These butterflies were easy to pick up on your > finger. Nearby a garden with balsam is loaded with pipevine swallowtails. > > At Mt. Vernon, IN, I had a dramatic look at a pink-spotted sphinx moth > drinking from evening primrose around midnight after a rain. Its eyes > blazed like neon rubies in my flashlight beam through 20 feet of fog and > mist. It flew and hovered with the tongue hanging out like an elephant's > trunk. This tongue must have been 3-4" long; the moth barely needed to > approach to reach the masses of flowers, which smelled faintly like > honeysuckle. Amazing. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Liz Day > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA (40 N, ~86 W) > Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia > miserulata). > USDA zone 5b. Winters ~20F, summers ~85F. Formerly temperate deciduous > forest. > daylight at kiva.net > www.kiva.net/~daylight > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Mon Sep 3 00:17:01 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 00:17:01 -0400 Subject: Unbiased souls Message-ID: <023401c1342f$487021a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Mike Gochfeld wrote: Ron wrote compellingly about his taxonomic committee and the membership of "unbiased" persons. I am always skeptical about "unbiased" . I wonder if he has a definition of this with which all could aggree. Do it mean "without opinion" or "without experience" or "unsure of what is right or wrong". I suspect that most of us have biases. Perhaps it would be useful to be assured that individuals laid their biases on the table rather than pretending that they were checked at the door. Being aware of ones biases and acknowledging them is particularly helpful. For example, can someone be truly unbiased about being a lumper or a splitter. For example, my bias is, "when in doubt split". Lumping invariably (I think) results in a loss of information [even if the lumper turns out to be right]. Who wants to study a subspecies anyways [yet that's what we usually study when we think we are studying behavior or physiology or ecology of "a species". And one the molecular systematists tell us that taxon a is or isn't specifically distinct from taxon b because of x % genome difference, isn't that mere inserting a new bias (that there is a relatively constant criterion across taxa, based on a fragment of the genomic differentiation). Mike Gochfeld _________________________ Very good. Two things. It may have been premature to bring this subject up - but it is up. Second, most should know by now I am certainly biased. So where to start. As much as I have a problem with common names I am also a realist and think the inevitable is that we (all of us) are moving toward a "standardized" list for common names. One of the three on line TILS names sections will be that list. If it were to be posted today most of the scientific (to subspecies) names would have "none" or "multiple" beside them in ref to The common name of that taxon. In other words until a name really is The one "everyone" agrees on it will not qualify for the TILS listing. Therefore the decision of what name in listed there really has nothing to do with TILS as in a position or decision. It will be only a mirror of what YOU ALL decide is The common name. Monarch and Mourning Cloak may be the only ones there for a long time :-) (It is for the N. American Common names only.) This is not in competition with anyone or any group. It is somewhat naive and idealistic but we are in no rush. The TC-ISBN (Technically Correct - Index to Scientific Butterfly Names) is totally under the supervision of Harry Pavulaan. (I have personally disassociated myself from all of the actual listing processes on all three lists - that is the first step in taking bias out of the mix - get rid of the opinionated strong willed leader - me.) However and whoever Harry accomplishes this is his business. It was his idea not mine. He has been working toward this for a long time and TILS is simply the black board. The technically correct part - and this is what takes away the bias - is that all ranks and alignments will be totally and simply based on the latest published scientific research. There are some what ifs here - you all will have to ask him about those. The WUDBN (WEBsters' Unabridged Dictionary of Butterfly Names) is a huge project under the auspices of Chris Durden. It automatically has no bias as it is "just" every name ever applied to a given taxon - and in chronological order and frequency sections. It is the WEBsters' as it will depend heavily on your (the www. websters) contributions. He has been working on this for some time and TILS simply provides the facilitation. We need and want lots of input and help. The best way bias is removed - is to have all biases represented at the table - and to have a meaningful voice. They neutralize each other and a rational consensus is the result. I suppose that the good thing about being a little premature in letting folks know about all this is allay suspicions and to encourage everyone to swamp Harry and Chris with letters and emails :-) Glad it is not me - it would take away from my online editorializing time. Ronnie G. PS TILS is open and willing to have these lists expanded to the rest of the world's regions. We have already made some contacts in that direction. As TILS president, I will help Chris and Harry screen individuals to insure they are also as unbiased as possible - and simply want a fair, broad and on line accessable list of names. If others are doing similar or the same thing - it does not matter to us. We are not trying to be the only voice nor say that only "our" lists are correct - except the WUDBN as it is impossible for it to be incorrect. It can only be incomplete as it includes all names and synonymies. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From beebuzz at kiva.net Mon Sep 3 00:26:17 2001 From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:26:17 -0500 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010902213801.00a5a380@mail.utexas.edu> References: <3B928567.4634@sprint.ca> <4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220@b.pop.kiva.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010902230743.00a9c560@b.pop.kiva.net> >I think you need a room-sized insectary in sunlight for part of the day with potted saplings of a selection of candidate larval foodplants. Apparently so, from the replies I've gotten. You need to cage the female with some of the food plant and hope she acts naturally (I'm not clear on the size of the cage, but it's bigger than a large paper bag). This is way past what is worth trying to undertake in an apartment unless you are really hellbent. I already went through this with exotic plants - you can successfully raise demanding organisms, or you can have a life, but you can't have both. The other method is to look through lots and lots of host trees outdoors and eventually find one. *sigh* You sure would think that just by chance eventually one would see a female tiger swallowtail laying eggs, even if they were out of reach. They lead a mysterious life, like fish do underwater, in which they are never in view for long enough to tell what they're doing. You need a tree house. Liz ------------------------------------------------------------- Liz Day Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA (40 N, ~86 W) Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia miserulata). USDA zone 5b. Winters ~20F, summers ~85F. Formerly temperate deciduous forest. daylight at kiva.net www.kiva.net/~daylight ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From conlan at adnc.com Mon Sep 3 02:30:36 2001 From: conlan at adnc.com (Chris Conlan) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 22:30:36 -0800 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae Message-ID: <200109030658.XAA04325@mailq.adnc.com> Maybe I just get lucky a lot but even a rather small cage (12 - 18 inches square) has worked just fine for me with many butterflies including several swallowtails. The trick is to keep them fed and make sure they are given warmth and sunshine. You also need to place just enough of the foodplant in the cage so that they are frequently bumping into it when flying around in the cage (usually this means a few sprigs spaced around the inside perimeter and top of the cage). Within a few days I usually get enough eggs to work with. The females get banged up in the smaller cages but they usually still lay. As for finding the larvae in the wild....it's not that hard with a little practice. The tiger swallowtail larvae (and many other swallowtails) just sit on top of the leaves and you can see the outline of the larva against the sky if standing under the tree looking up. When you know which hostplant to look on it's not that hard. Out here (So. Cal) the western tigers use a few plants but I used to find them on the willows in the canyons and also sometimes on the sycamores in suburbia. Another great way to find larvae is to just walk the canyons and look for frass on the ground below hostplants and then look directly above the "evidence" for feeding damage or the culprit. I find all kinds of Sphinx/Saturniid/Papilionid larvae this way. Practice practice practice! Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Mon Sep 3 05:22:21 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:22:21 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae Message-ID: >I think you need a room-sized insectary in sunlight for part of the day with potted saplings of a selection of candidate larval foodplants. Many years ago I built a 24"x18"x18" screen cage, which has worked fine for all the rearings I have tried. I gather a smaller one (even a one foot cube) will work too. Commercial cages are now very expensive-- BioQuip wants $94.50 for a 24"x12"x12" rearing cage--but anyone with a few hand tools can put such a cage together for a fraction of that cost. My cage, which is unnecessarily complex, used 4 feet of 1x10" board cut into 1/2" by 3/4" strips, one 18" square piece of 1/2" plywood, and some fiberglass screen. The strips were joined with half-lap joints at the cor- ners, and all screen panels are removable, with two hinged panels in the front. Panels mount to the frame with captive dowels. If you don't want removable panels, about half as much wood would be needed. This cage has met all my needs for the past 30 years. Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Mon Sep 3 07:20:11 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 07:20:11 -0400 Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range Message-ID: <3B93676B.30EFCF38@eohsi.rutgers.edu> With regard to the Queen of the Carolinas thread, Ron wrote about the "possibillity of overwintering in sheltered situations on the Carolina coast itself in the mildest years." I have made what I assume is the same assumption that winter temperature (or perhaps snow cover) limits the overwintering of southern species in the northern part of their range (or north of their normal range). The assumption follows that this accounts for the die off of species in the fall, and the re-invasion the following year (or at longer intervals) of southern species into (for example, NJ or New England). If this were the case, the overwintering stage of a species should be temperature sensitive with cold temp either killing outright or delaying development. But I wonder for how many of these northward invading species there is actual experimental evidence that cold in winter IS the proximate limiting factor. We do see adult survival limited by the early or delayed arrival of winter (but that seems to be a different question). For example, My wife, Joanna Burger, showed experimentally that summer temperature influencing incubation and development (rather than winter temperature influencing adult survival) might impose the northern range limit on a snake species. Or, how often do we see survival in the north (and early spring emergence) of such species after truly warm (snowless) winters (i.e. after 1999-2000 or 1998-1999). Mike Gochfeld ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Mon Sep 3 08:22:26 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 08:22:26 -0400 Subject: Still another code violation References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB3FB@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3B937601.AFEF0B09@eohsi.rutgers.edu> I really appreciate Norbert's clarificatrion of the "selenis" vs "cocyta" issue, since we got it at least 75% wrong in our book. We wrote for "Phyciodes selenis (Wright, 1905) "Also listed as Pyciodes pascoensis and as P. tharos type B. Scott (1994) revised the Crescents and provides compelling argument that the name with priority is P.cocyta (Cramer 1777). Listed as a subspecies of Pearl Crescent by Miller and Brown (1981). The nomenclature is still not settled." (p. 186 in Butterflies of New Jersey). So can we write a coda indicating that it is NOW SETTLED. Mike Gochfeld "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > On top of the names Phyciodes pratensis and Colias pseudochristina which > violate the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature; I just noticed > another error in Butterflies through Binoculars - the west. This one is > Phyciodes selenis. A thorough review of Phyciodes nomenclature that was > published some years ago made it clear that the correct name according to > the rules is Phyciodes cocyta. Cocyta has been used by most authors since > then, except for those few people who still like to lump cocyta with tharos > despite the evidence to the contrary. The reason is a simple matter of 60 > years priority of cocyta over selenis. There is an added issue which is not > yet widely known. Cocyta has a neotype. It is not known if selenis even has > any syntypes. It certainly does not have a lectotype nor neotype. Last > winter I read the original description of selenis and it is clearly a nomen > dubium (name of uncertain application). I pointed this out to a few other > people who then read the OD and also came to the same conclusion. Of course > people who do not want to play by the rules can continue to use pratensis > and selenis and whatever else they want to :-) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From bimi at dlc.fi Mon Sep 3 12:23:03 2001 From: bimi at dlc.fi (Marko Laakkonen & Pauliina Ehnqvist) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:23:03 +0300 Subject: identification help needed Message-ID: <9n0auh$sbi$1@tron.sci.fi> Hi everybody. I have some butterfly pictures on my homepage the species of which I have been unable to identify. Mostly from Uganda and Brazil. Please have a look and offer your knowledgeable hand. Go to: http://www.saunalahti.fi/bimi/Butterflies/butterflies.html Thanks in advance Yours, Marko ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From beebuzz at kiva.net Mon Sep 3 12:55:18 2001 From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:55:18 -0500 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010903114943.00aa7350@b.pop.kiva.net> >a 24"x18"x18" screen cage has worked fine for all the rearings I have tried. I gather a smaller one (even a one foot cube) will work too. Why don't the butterflies just flap around trying to escape until they are dead? I don't understand what makes the difference, if it's not size. I have an 8x8x16" cage. Liz ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Mon Sep 3 13:36:25 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 13:36:25 -0400 Subject: seeing larvae References: Message-ID: <02a301c1349e$f5406600$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Kenelm Philip" wrote: > Many years ago I built a 24"x18"x18" screen cage, which has worked > fine for all the rearings I have tried. I gather a smaller one (even a one > foot cube) will work too. ______________________ I have used a Cricket cage for many years for various lycaenids (M. grynea smilacis, M. h. hesseli & angulata, Deciduphagus irus arsace) ovipositions. I have also used sleeving for small leps like Phyciodes batesii maconensis and hesseli & angulata. The Cricket cage is a 4 and 3/4 inch square by 6 and 1/2 tall fine metal wire screen enclosure with a round hole in the plastic top the size of small margarine tub. This can be purchased at a fishing bait shop. It is used to house your live Cricket bait. (I get mine without the Crickets). I turn mine up side down so the round hole is at the base. I set this on top of a margarine tub that is also up side down. The tub is over another smaller container (what ever I can dig out of the trash). The small container is filled with water. The inverted margarine tub has a hole cut into the center of it to fit the size of the stem of what ever host plant I am using. The plant goes in the hole and into the water. I feed my females powdered sugar water and place them into the container (they fly up) and lower this over the plant in set up. I place this in full sun. (the solid plastic bottom of the Cricket cage is now on top and provides shade. Within about 1 to 4 hours the female hairstreaks have laid a bunch of eggs. For sleeving I just use a regular large butterfly net bag. Feed females with sugar water and place in bag. This is a hotter set up. I sleeve on outdoor plants. I have a good stand of Aster undulatus - and many other Asters in my "bug garden" (weed patch - or crappy-looking-place-in-the-yard as my wife and friends call it), and a White Cedar too. I once had a problem with an undetected spider munching out on hesseli or smilacis larvae on the sleeved Cedar. (I rear both on this with no problem and forget which it was the spider got most of.) With one clutch of maconensis left to hatch and feed on a sleeved undulatus - I lost about all of 100 + second instars to what was probably a roach that had gotten in at the bottom where the tie off had gotten loose. Most of my interest is in skippers and hairstreaks so I don't do much with the bigger stuff. When I reared hordes of Asterocampa for a research project several years ago I just gathered clutches of larvae off area Celtis trees - can be easily found on low shaded scraggly saplings. Satyrium kingi, D. henrici yahwehus were reared by the old beating method of getting larvae off host plants in the spring. Swallowtails like asterius and troilus from low larvae found on their low hosts. I attempted to get the undescribed southern Tiger Swallowtail species to oviposit this year - but they are very uncooperative - plus no one knows what they oviposit/feed on in the wild - except that they reject ALL know glaucus hosts and canadensis host are not in its (southern) range. A couple things are suspected - one highly. I did get one egg and one 1st instar larvae - via prayer. I tried to get the female to oviposit on a bunch of different plants to no avail. I said to God that I really needed at least one egg. She laid one on the foam spreading board! I thought she was dead and did not notice the egg till I was about ready to remove her. The egg was ready to hatch. (This is not my project - I am just a reviewer. Since it lives "near" my area of the country I decided to review the research in the field - what better way to "know" the data is correct?.) Or does this mean I know too much now and am in too much contact with the authors? TTR has found that interactive review is much better than anonymous. Boy, I changed the subject fast there didn't I. :-) Ron ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Mon Sep 3 14:19:04 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:19:04 -0400 Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range References: <3B93676B.30EFCF38@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <02ae01c134a4$ea429ec0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> (I am passing this along to carolina leps group as the subject matter will be of interest to many of them.) Charleston SC is the type locality of Phoebus sennae eubule (Cloudless Sulphur). Is this based on a resident or dispersed population? I have gone back and forth for this for a long time. Having done no structured study on this I have come to an opinion. All stages of eubule survive the mild winter here just fine - it rarely snows here and seldom gets below freezing (or far below) in the dead of winter. (Charleston is a great place.) The problem is host plants. If we have a few days of really cold for us - below 32 for a couple of nights and into mid 40's in the days - followed by 70s for two or three days one is apt to see eubule out on those warm days all winter. In spring there are often many freshly emerged eubule that obviously came from "overwintering" pupae. Then as early summer comes around there is a big drop off. The weedy hosts are not up and subspecies eubule "dies out" - except in warmer winters where more southern specimens are now coming back into the area - so adults are seen but oviposition is not occurring. There is quite possibly some secondary plant(s) that may be used as host in early summer - not known to me though. This is related to the temp factor on range as eubule is certainly able in all stages (which the most?) to cope with cold. A good college research project here. How far north are eubule found in winter? Which stage is the most cold resistant? How many other southern leps may fit the same scenario. We think they are limited by cold but actually "die out" due to lack of host plant rather than "retreat south" due to drop in temps. ???? Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Gochfeld" To: "lepslist" Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range > With regard to the Queen of the Carolinas thread, Ron wrote about the > "possibillity of overwintering in sheltered situations on the Carolina > coast itself in the mildest years." > > I have made what I assume is the same assumption that winter temperature > (or perhaps snow cover) limits the overwintering of southern species in > the northern part of their range (or north of their normal range). > > The assumption follows that this accounts for the die off of species in > the fall, and the re-invasion the following year (or at longer > intervals) of southern species into (for example, NJ or New England). > > If this were the case, the overwintering stage of a species should be > temperature sensitive with cold temp either killing outright or delaying > development. > > But I wonder for how many of these northward invading species there is > actual experimental evidence that cold in winter IS the proximate > limiting factor. We do see adult survival limited by the early or > delayed arrival of winter (but that seems to be a different question). > > For example, My wife, Joanna Burger, showed experimentally that summer > temperature influencing incubation and development (rather than winter > temperature influencing adult survival) might impose the northern range > limit on a snake species. > > Or, how often do we see survival in the north (and early spring > emergence) of such species after truly warm (snowless) winters (i.e. > after 1999-2000 or 1998-1999). > > Mike Gochfeld > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From dsw2364 at netreach.net Mon Sep 3 14:51:05 2001 From: dsw2364 at netreach.net (Chuck Steer) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:51:05 -0400 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae References: , <4.3.2.7.1.20010903114943.00aa7350@b.pop.kiva.net> Message-ID: <3B93D119.CAF29E26@netreach.net> Liz and group: I have had the same problem with trying to keep and mate butterflies. They just flap around trying to escape. Last year I tried to raise Eastern Black Swallowtails with some luck just by keeping them outside. I also use a fish tank that is good for when I find cocoons in winter. Chuck Liz Day wrote: > > >a 24"x18"x18" screen cage has worked fine for all the rearings I have > tried. I gather a smaller one (even a one foot cube) will work too. > > Why don't the butterflies just flap around trying to escape until they are > dead? I don't understand what makes the difference, if it's not size. I > have an 8x8x16" cage. > > Liz > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > -- Sincerely, Chuck "I would rather be a real nobody, then a fake somebody" www.qsl.net/wa3iac/ FAX: 1-209-885-9213 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rjparcelles at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:35:14 2001 From: rjparcelles at yahoo.com (Bob Parcelles,Jr.) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unusual lepidoptera behavior In-Reply-To: <3B927363.478CB95B@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20010903193514.54819.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joel Lyons wrote: > but perhaps understandable ... > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jrlyons/vwp?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.dnm=The+Day.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/jrlyons/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bPhoto%2bAlbum%26.src=ph%26.view=t > CERTAINLY OUTSTANDING...:-) HAPPY HOLIDAY TO ALL. ===== Bob Parcelles, Jr Pinellas Park, FL rjparcelles at yahoo.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876 "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin." --William Shakespeare __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From stanlep at extremezone.com Mon Sep 3 16:01:36 2001 From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:01:36 -0700 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2@tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us> Message-ID: <3B93E1A0.16F270BE@extremezone.com> With regard to anyone having the 'right' to do whatever they darn well want to, simply because for a short, very short, segment of evolutionary time they happen to have been 'given' a so called 'right' by only one of many other species on this planet (which has, by the way, evolved to its present evolutionary development in a relatively short evolutionary period of time) it seems to me that there must be some sort of compromise made of this so called 'right'. My feelings on this stem from the following events. I own property near Prescott, Arizona. When I constructed on it I consciously made an effort to disturb the land as little as possible. I love to see the quail, rabbits, horned toads, tarantula's, blue birds, road runners, insects, etc., and above all the butterflies in my living area. I did not want this to disappear. This is a high desert area, but I really like the grassy shrub oak terrain, and like to hear and see the wind blowing the grass. Recently, a neighbor bought the property next to me and then proceeded to bulldoze all the the surface of over two acres of land. There was no apparent reason to do this. He will not actively use this area, but I imagine to him he has 'improved' the property. To me it is an eye sore, and in the process of bulldozing his land he has destroyed the habitat of many vertebrate and invertebrate species. Another neighbor near me who moved in about two years ago proceeded to again defoliate and make barren the acres him and his wife owns. First they fenced it in, and then his wife spent weeks actually BY HAND pulling the natural vegetation (they look upon natural vegetation as 'weeds' - really weird) on this 2+ acre parcel of land. When that did not work because of regrowth, they then hauled in truck loads of sand to cover the area in the hope that that will keep these so called 'weeds' down. These people are absolutely insane!!!! I see this kind of stuff over and over in the area of my property. I consider it paradise, but it seems like most property owners do not see this or do not have any appreciation of nature. They seem to be motivated by some misguided value that if they haven't scarred and mauled their property sufficiently, they may not be looked upon favorably by their neighbors. If they are not well-to-do enough to own a small dozer, they get out their weed eater on a Sunday to mow down these so called 'weeds'. All these activities go way-way beyond fire safety considerations. They seem to consider 'nature' as an enemy, and, thus, are themselves enemies of nature. Give man/woman the means, and they will use these means to destroy, e.g., if the two property owners I mentioned could not have afforded a small dozer, or pay to have it done, it would not be done. What the ability to blast and destroy the mountainous area near Prescott is doing to the beauty of the area to simply put in a Wall Mart, or some other shopping center, instead of being more environmentally conscious, is another story. Because I see this over and over, it does seem to me that there needs to be some compromise made to this so called 'right', which most interpret as a god given 'right', or some kind of 'right' in the sense of a natural law. I am continually dumbfounded over the way people destroy the natural treasures they have. With respect to the property owner near Cloudcroft, based on the prevalent human behaviour I have observed around my property, it seems safe to predict that the owner will scrape, scar, and destroy much more habitat than necessary to use the land as he/she wants to use it. Stan David Smith wrote: > > Hello, > What everyone seems to overlook in these debates is that someone owns > the land that you are talking about and very reasonably has plans for it. If > that person cannot use the land in the way that they want to then the > government should reemburse him (or her) for their loss. That is the way > things have historically worked (at least in the U. S.) and that is the only > honest way to do it. If the government does not reemburse the owner then > they are thieves. Why should one person or organisation bear the burden of > preserving a species, subspecies, or local population of an organism? Don't > get me wrong, I am in favor of habitat preservation but I don't think > another should bear the burden for what I want done. > David Smith > "Mike Quinn" wrote in message > news:22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2 at tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: NEWS at fws.gov [mailto:NEWS at fws.gov] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:03 PM > > To: fws-news at lists.fws.gov > > Subject: [fws-news] SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT TO LIST > > NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > > > > ************************************************************** > > This message is from the fws-news listserver. > > ************************************************************** > > > > Chris Tollefson 202-208-5634 > > > > SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT > > TO LIST NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > > Interior Secretary Gale Norton today announced that the U.S. Fish and > > Wildlife Service and several conservation organizations have reached an > > agreement in principle that will enable the Service to complete work on > > evaluations of numerous species proposed for listing under the Endangered > > Species Act. > > > > Under this agreement with the Center for Biological Diversity, Southern > > Appalachian Biodiversity Project, California Native Plant Society, and the > > Biodiversity Legal Foundation, the Service will issue final listing > > decisions for 14 species and propose eight more species for listing. The > > Service also will be able to take action on four citizen petitions to list > > species under the Act. The Service and the organizations have agreed to > > extend deadlines for eight other critical habitat designations, thereby > > making funds available for these actions. > > > > > > > > Carson wandering skipper (Nevada and California): Emergency Listing > > > > This species of skipper butterfly, Pseudocopaeodes eunus, is the only one > > in it genus. It is found locally distributed in grassland habitats on > > alkaline substrates in Nevada and California. The skipper depends on > > saltgrass communities with a freshwater source nearby to support nectar > > sources. This subspecies is threatened by habitat fragmentation, > > degradation, and loss primarily due to agriculture, livestock grazing, and > > urban development. Non-native plant invasion and impacts from proposed > > water development projects which can alter local hydrology are also > > threats. The genus of skipper butterfly is believed to include five > > subspecies: One of the subspecies, P. e. obscurus, currently found in > only > > two populations, one in Washoe County, Nevada and the other in Lassen > > County, California. A third population of P.e. obscurus known from > Carson > > City, Nevada is believed to have been extirpated from that site in recent > > years. > > > > > > Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly (New Mexico): Proposed Listing > > Rule > > > > The Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly is restricted to the > > vicinity of Cloudcroft in the Sacramento Mountains in Otero County, New > > Mexico. The species is threatened by destruction and fragmentation of > > habitat from private and commercial development, habitat degradation and > > loss of host plants from grazing, encroachment of conifers and non-native > > vegetation into non- forested openings, over-collection, and, due to its > > limited range, vulnerability to local extirpations from extreme weather > > events or catastrophic wildfire including fire suppression activities. > > > > Miami blue butterfly (Florida): 90-day Finding > > > > The Miami blue is a small butterfly with bright blue forewings on both > > sexes, a wide dark outer border on the forewing in females, and an > > orange-capped eyespot on the hindwing. This subspecies once occurred from > > mainland peninsular Florida, as far north as Hillsborough and Volusia > > counties, southward to south Florida and the Keys, including the Dry > > Tortugas. > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > News releases are also available on the World Wide Web at > > http://news.fws.gov > > > > Questions concerning a particular news release or item of > > information should be directed to the person listed as the > > contact. General comments or observations concerning the > > content of the information should be directed to Mitch Snow > > (Mitch_Snow at fws.gov) in the Office of Public Affairs. > > > > To unsubscribe from the fws-news listserver, send e-mail to > > fws-news-request at lists.fws.gov. Enter "unsubscribe" in the subject field. > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jrlyons at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 3 17:57:26 2001 From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:57:26 -0500 Subject: Neil Jones Message-ID: <3B93FCC6.D8911FFE@bellsouth.net> Neil, drop me an E-Mail. I have something I believe you can relate to (unless you've already seen it). Orion Society, Summer 2000 issue, Ted Williams article, re: Blue Ribbon Committee, etc. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From bmw60 at aol.com Mon Sep 3 18:02:39 2001 From: bmw60 at aol.com (BMW60) Date: 03 Sep 2001 22:02:39 GMT Subject: Questions about Arizona Mothing References: <9msm4b$l9k$0@206.97.58.71> Message-ID: <20010903180239.04506.00000922@mb-bh.aol.com> Ryan, Hi, this is Bill in Tucson. I suppose your not familiar with Arizona, but Pena Blanca Canyon is the Holy Grail of United States moth collecting. The only bad thing is you missed the real show which is in July. What kind of moths are you interested in? The sphingids hold on a lot longer than the saturnids and there should be some left. I was planning a trip, probable Wednesday to Pena Blanca and you would be welcome to meet me there. I've got all the Mercury Vapor and black light stuff needed. As far as renting any stuff, a generator may be available at a tool rental shop but I would say you would be out of luck getting light equipment. The Chiracahua Mountains just East of you is well known for mothing. If I can help you with anything else just E-Mail me at BMW60 at MSN.COM Dont pay any attention to the address I sent this to you on. Take Care, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Mon Sep 3 20:43:25 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:43:25 -0400 Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range References: <3B93676B.30EFCF38@eohsi.rutgers.edu> <02ae01c134a4$ea429ec0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Message-ID: <3B9423AC.E7B7C060@eohsi.rutgers.edu> I think that the phenomenohn Ron describes for Phoebis sennae is an example of my question. Range limited by some other ecologic factor than cold temperature (i.e. the die off of the hosts). But why should Cassia disappear in South Carolina or is it a problem of leaves dying in some years but not others. The plants themselves should be cold tolerant. P. sennae comes to NJ in most years (rare as early as June, more often not until mid-summer). Some years they're abundant, other years unrecorded in NJ (and Long Island). I don't think anyone has identified a pattern of abundance related to cold winters in the Carolinas. However, on the 64 Fourth of July Counts, held through 1996, the only records for Cloudless Sulfurs occurred in 1992 after an unusually mild winter in the southern states. Art Shapiro wrote in 1966 that it occurred in NJ Sept-Oct, so perhaps it actually is occurring earlier now than 30 years ago (so phenology, i.e. arrival time, if not abundance) seems to be related to mild winters elsewhere). . MIKE GOCHFELD =================================================== Ron Gatrelle wrote: > (I am passing this along to carolina leps group as the subject matter will > be of interest to many of them.) > > Charleston SC is the type locality of Phoebus sennae eubule (Cloudless > Sulphur). Is this based on a resident or dispersed population? I have gone > back and forth for this for a long time. Having done no structured study on > this I have come to an opinion. All stages of eubule survive the mild > winter here just fine - it rarely snows here and seldom gets below freezing > (or far below) in the dead of winter. (Charleston is a great place.) > > The problem is host plants. If we have a few days of really cold for us - > below 32 for a couple of nights and into mid 40's in the days - followed by > 70s for two or three days one is apt to see eubule out on those warm days > all winter. In spring there are often many freshly emerged eubule that > obviously came from "overwintering" pupae. Then as early summer comes > around there is a big drop off. The weedy hosts are not up and subspecies > eubule "dies out" - except in warmer winters where more southern specimens > are now coming back into the area - so adults are seen but oviposition is > not occurring. There is quite possibly some secondary plant(s) that may be > used as host in early summer - not known to me though. > > This is related to the temp factor on range as eubule is certainly able in > all stages (which the most?) to cope with cold. A good college research > project here. How far north are eubule found in winter? Which stage is the > most cold resistant? How many other southern leps may fit the same > scenario. We think they are limited by cold but actually "die out" due to > lack of host plant rather than "retreat south" due to drop in temps. ???? > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Gochfeld" > To: "lepslist" > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 7:20 AM > Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range > > > With regard to the Queen of the Carolinas thread, Ron wrote about the > > "possibillity of overwintering in sheltered situations on the Carolina > > coast itself in the mildest years." > > > > I have made what I assume is the same assumption that winter temperature > > (or perhaps snow cover) limits the overwintering of southern species in > > the northern part of their range (or north of their normal range). > > > > The assumption follows that this accounts for the die off of species in > > the fall, and the re-invasion the following year (or at longer > > intervals) of southern species into (for example, NJ or New England). > > > > If this were the case, the overwintering stage of a species should be > > temperature sensitive with cold temp either killing outright or delaying > > development. > > > > But I wonder for how many of these northward invading species there is > > actual experimental evidence that cold in winter IS the proximate > > limiting factor. We do see adult survival limited by the early or > > delayed arrival of winter (but that seems to be a different question). > > > > For example, My wife, Joanna Burger, showed experimentally that summer > > temperature influencing incubation and development (rather than winter > > temperature influencing adult survival) might impose the northern range > > limit on a snake species. > > > > Or, how often do we see survival in the north (and early spring > > emergence) of such species after truly warm (snowless) winters (i.e. > > after 1999-2000 or 1998-1999). > > > > Mike Gochfeld > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From patrice.gill at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 3 21:18:47 2001 From: patrice.gill at sympatico.ca (Patrice gill) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:18:47 -0400 Subject: bugs eating my drum PLEASE HELP Message-ID: <3B942BF6.47F3F9F1@sympatico.ca> Hi, I got my djembe two years ago and have not used it for a month or soo...mental note have to quit job to get more drumming time...any how I have noticed saw dust on the ground around my drum and have observed small bug in the dust and in the drum.The drum was imported from africa. The bug are about 1mm long (1/32th of an inch). Little holes have now appered on the outside of the drum. I have tried isecticides to no avail, some one has suggested to freeze my drum for a week?!! PLEASE HELP ME MY DRUM IS MELTING FAST. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jtuttle at theriver.com Mon Sep 3 21:29:19 2001 From: jtuttle at theriver.com (James and Margaret Tuttle) Date: 4 Sep 2001 01:29:19 GMT Subject: Dolbogene hartwegii (Sphingidae) in Arizona? Message-ID: <9n1apf$d2n$0@208.164.96.67> In 2000, there were three adults of Dolbogene hartwegii (Sphingidae) taken in Pena Blanca Canyon. I have not heard of any reports this summer. Is anyone aware of captures in 2001?? Thanks. Jim Tuttle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From monarch at saber.net Mon Sep 3 22:26:01 2001 From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:26:01 -0500 Subject: bugs eating my drum PLEASE HELP References: <3B942BF6.47F3F9F1@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3B943BB9.3652@saber.net> Patrice gill wrote: > have noticed saw dust on the ground around my drum and have observed > small bug in the dust and in the drum.The drum was imported from africa. > The bug are about 1mm long (1/32th of an inch). Little holes have now > appered on > the outside of the drum. I have tried isecticides to no avail, some one > has suggested to freeze my drum for a week?!! PLEASE HELP ME MY DRUM IS > MELTING FAST. Put drum in the back seat of your car on a warm sunny day and roll up the windows tight until sunset. Paul Cherubini. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Tue Sep 4 05:04:21 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 01:04:21 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range Message-ID: This probably has little to do with the situation in the SE U.S., but in the arctic the limiting factor for the distribution of butterflies appears to be the number of degree-months above 0 C in the summer, and not anything to do with winter temperatures. The major exception to that rule is involved with the amount of summer cloudiness--but that is still unre- lated to winter temperatures. Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Tue Sep 4 07:00:03 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 07:00:03 -0400 Subject: is temp the limiting factor on range References: Message-ID: <3B94B432.AA675264@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Interesting. My botany professor who did his PhD at UNiv Chicago in the 1920's put thermocouples in tree buds and showed that bud opening was related to (dependent on???) the cumulative degree days above some threshold (which I have forgotten). I think he was working with American Elm (Ulmus americana). The implication (if I remember correctly) was that two days at 10 degrees above threshold had the same effect as 20 days of one degree above threshold. There's probably a literature on this for insect physiology as well. Mike Gochfeld Kenelm Philip wrote: > This probably has little to do with the situation in the SE U.S., > but in the arctic the limiting factor for the distribution of butterflies > appears to be the number of degree-months above 0 C in the summer, and not > anything to do with winter temperatures. The major exception to that rule > is involved with the amount of summer cloudiness--but that is still unre- > lated to winter temperatures. > > Ken Philip > fnkwp at uaf.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From kevin.caley at nottingham.ac.uk Tue Sep 4 07:53:34 2001 From: kevin.caley at nottingham.ac.uk (Kevin J Caley) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:53:34 +0100 Subject: Sigmascan Message-ID: <3B94C0BD.674A5600@nottingham.ac.uk> Hi All! I am using sigma scan to teach diversity in metapopulations of Slver-studded blue butterflies and wondered if anyone else on the newsgroup has had any interaction with this software? Incidentally, we're getting some interesting results out of it on the taxonomic & 'recognition' front...... Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Tue Sep 4 08:40:15 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:40:15 -0400 Subject: Still another code violation Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C2B@NTFS2> The other thing is that, at least here onthe North Shore of Boston, P. cocyta is being almost totally overlooked by MassLep people who are calling EVERY Crescent they see here "Pearls". Despite the obvious differences of appearance between the two. Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Gochfeld [SMTP:gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU] > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 8:22 AM > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > Cc: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: Re: Still another code violation > > I really appreciate Norbert's clarificatrion of the "selenis" vs "cocyta" > issue, since we got it at least 75% wrong in our book. We wrote for > > "Phyciodes selenis (Wright, 1905) > > "Also listed as Pyciodes pascoensis and as P. tharos type B. > Scott (1994) revised the Crescents and provides compelling argument that > the > name with priority is P.cocyta (Cramer 1777). Listed as a subspecies of > Pearl > Crescent by Miller and Brown (1981). The nomenclature is still not > settled." > (p. 186 in Butterflies of New Jersey). > > So can we write a coda indicating that it is NOW SETTLED. Mike Gochfeld > > > "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > > > On top of the names Phyciodes pratensis and Colias pseudochristina which > > violate the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature; I just > noticed > > another error in Butterflies through Binoculars - the west. This one is > > Phyciodes selenis. A thorough review of Phyciodes nomenclature that was > > published some years ago made it clear that the correct name according > to > > the rules is Phyciodes cocyta. Cocyta has been used by most authors > since > > then, except for those few people who still like to lump cocyta with > tharos > > despite the evidence to the contrary. The reason is a simple matter of > 60 > > years priority of cocyta over selenis. There is an added issue which is > not > > yet widely known. Cocyta has a neotype. It is not known if selenis even > has > > any syntypes. It certainly does not have a lectotype nor neotype. Last > > winter I read the original description of selenis and it is clearly a > nomen > > dubium (name of uncertain application). I pointed this out to a few > other > > people who then read the OD and also came to the same conclusion. Of > course > > people who do not want to play by the rules can continue to use > pratensis > > and selenis and whatever else they want to :-) > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > > Phone 250-365-8610 > > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From harry.legrand at ncmail.net Tue Sep 4 09:08:07 2001 From: harry.legrand at ncmail.net (Harry Legrand) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:08:07 -0400 Subject: Danaus gilippus bernice References: <200108312020.QAA10275@anderson.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: <3B94D237.327D65BC@ncmail.net> As record keeper of butterfly records for North Carolina, I wish to weigh in on the recent reports of Queens in DC. In NC, the Queen is a rare species. Nearly all of our recent records are from the immediate southern coast. There is actually a semi-resident population at Fort Fisher, where the hostplant -- Cynanchum palustris -- is present. (This plant is present along most of the coastal marshes and thickets of the state). We see fresh Queens at Fort Fisher in summer and fall, but hurricanes perhaps knock back or knock out the population. This is the only place in NC I have seen Queens, and I have covered the state for 11 years. For most other active folks, the same can be said, though there are some other recent coastal sightings. I do not believe there are any sightings/specimens of Queen for Virginia. I would personally suspect fresh Queen(s) in DC, at the Arboretum, no less, to likely have been reared on-site, such as from plants at the arboretum. I say this for the following reasons: 1) relative lack of recent far-inland records in the mid-Atlantic, 2) complete lack of records from Virginia, I believe, 3) the fresh condition of the individuals reported on the NABA sightings page, and 4) the specific location -- a garden/arboretum. Note that if the sightings been made from along the immediate coast, I would be more likely to believe that the butterflies came from wild stock farther south. Of course, Queens breed in TX and the individuals could have come to DC from the SW or west. I have had to deal with the same sort of thing with Zebra Heliconians (Heliconius charitonius) in NC. There are a few coastal records, which are almost certainly legitimate strays, as it is regular along the SC coast in small numbers. But, we have a cluster of records from the Durham/Triangle area, where there is a butterfly house, many nurseries, etc. This is clearly a bimodal distribution, and an unlikely one at that. No one knows for sure the origin of these Piedmont records, but I really wonder if they are legit, as some coastal folks have never seen one in NC, nor have I (living in the Triangle). Yes, strays do occur -- Marine Blues in the n.e., Dainty Sulphur in many areas, etc. We even had a photograph of a Soldier at Fort Fisher a few years ago, perched on the Cynanchum! Harry LeGrand NC Natural Heritage Program Ron Gatrelle wrote: > > Rob, Alex & all, > In the recent thread on "Queens" in the DC area I mentioned remembering > an article by John Burns (USNM) on this butterfly in the Carolinas. Well, > since the thread is still alive on leps-l, I decided to dig for it. Not > only did I find the reprint of it but another reprint of a paper on this > taxon in Mississippi by Bryant Mather. First let me say that those who > don't ever look at research papers or subscribe to things like the Journal > of the Lepidopterists' Society or The Taxonomic Report that you are missing > a lot of fascinating information. > Burns' paper was published in 1983 in Proclamations of the > Entomological Society of Washington. The title is "Queen of the Carolinas > (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae: Danainae: Danus Gilippus). It gives the > intriguing history of probably all records of Danaus gilippus bernice in > North and South Carolina. > Mather's paper does the same for Mississippi. It was published in the > Lepidopterists' News in 1955. That paper is titled "Danaus Gilippus in > Mississippi". > I wish I could just relay everything in these two papers - they are > that jam packed and interesting. But... Just some highlights. Burns > uncovered records from 1899 to 1982 in SC and from 1904 to 1982 in NC. > Burns also found a record for Martha's Vineyard, Mass 8 July 1934. Mather's > Mississippi records are from 198? to 1953. > The earliest Miss. record is 12 May 1952. The earliest SC record is 19 > April 1934. The earliest NC record is 4 May 1908 Moore County. Burns > concludes, "I believe that the Queen is neither the casual visitor some > think it is nor a potential endangered species now 'Rare in S.C.' though > 'common in S.C. to the 1930's ' (Brooks et.al., 1979:51) but, instead, a > species that actually breeds in the coastal Carolinas in most years." > Also, "...possibility of overwintering in sheltered situations on the > Carolina coast itself in the mildest years." > Burns records finding larvae and pupae on Cynanchum palustre in beach > environs in N. and S. Carolina. He also laments - as I continue to > lament - the widespread destruction of the unique flora and fauna of the > Carolinas' coast to make way for expensive resorts and housing. He found > this to be wiping out the breeding habitat of both D. gilippus and D. > plexippus along the coastal islands. > In relation to plexippus, he noted that in his many personal visits to > the coastal areas of N. and S. Carolina he found gilippus bernice more > frequent. The historical records from Brimley, 1923 also state the same for > NC. Sharpe 1914 found the Queen "common" in Charleston in 1912 and 13. > The Martha's Vineyard specimens was in fresh condition indicating it > had not traveled a great distance. Burns stated that the Queen is a very > "mobile species" - contrary to various published reports to it not being a > "wanderer". This makes sense to me too as its host plants are of disturbed > and changing environs dictating that the species continually be in movement > to locate and colonize new areas or perish. > Well, there is more but this is email. One does not find this kind of > info in the shallow field guides of current sales. One has to get out of > print books like Clark and Clark's Butterflies of Virginia, Forbes' > Butterflies of New York and Neighboring States, or back to Scudder or > Edwards. > Ron > > PS Yes, those were the days when there were loads of real lepidopterists. > State books like Gochfeld's on NJ, Allen's on WVA, Harris' Butterflies of > Gerogia and other such books have good information - which is why I do not > need (own) many of the "popular" guides. > > PPS I just cringe every time I see D. g. bernice and D. g. strigosus both > called "Queen". This is like calling all your kids (boys and girls) "Ed" > just because they are all in your family. Evolutionally and biologically > strigosus and bernice are greatly different - and of EQUAL RANK. If people > insist on common names then please use them correctly. Bernice is the > "Queen" and strigosus is "Striated Queen". The Queen does not occur in > California!!!!!!!!!! -- Harry LeGrand NC Natural Heritage Program 1615 MSC Raleigh, NC 27699-1615 (919) 715-8687 (work) FAX: 919-715-3085 e-mail: harry.legrand at ncmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Tue Sep 4 09:24:17 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:24:17 -0400 Subject: Still another code violation References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C2B@NTFS2> Message-ID: <3B94D601.A9A6379B@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Alex, I worry about that a lot. Particularly up in the Albany area I keep hoping to find cocyta, but haven't yet. We did see one individual in northern NJ which we were confident was cocyta, but it eluded us. But you mention obvious differences. What are they in your view. I'm not surprised that observers take for granted that everything is tharos. The odds are certainly in its favor in many places. In NJ virtually no one thinks of cocyta. But the same could be said for the tiger swallowtails, large fritillaries, etc. I'm sure lots of things get overlooks by being taken for more common species. MIKE GOCHFELD "Grkovich, Alex" wrote: > > The other thing is that, at least here onthe North Shore of Boston, P. > cocyta is being almost totally overlooked by MassLep people who are calling > EVERY Crescent they see here "Pearls". Despite the obvious differences of > appearance between the two. > Alex > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Gochfeld [SMTP:gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU] > > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 8:22 AM > > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > > Cc: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > > Subject: Re: Still another code violation > > > > I really appreciate Norbert's clarificatrion of the "selenis" vs "cocyta" > > issue, since we got it at least 75% wrong in our book. We wrote for > > > > "Phyciodes selenis (Wright, 1905) > > > > "Also listed as Pyciodes pascoensis and as P. tharos type B. > > Scott (1994) revised the Crescents and provides compelling argument that > > the > > name with priority is P.cocyta (Cramer 1777). Listed as a subspecies of > > Pearl > > Crescent by Miller and Brown (1981). The nomenclature is still not > > settled." > > (p. 186 in Butterflies of New Jersey). > > > > So can we write a coda indicating that it is NOW SETTLED. Mike Gochfeld > > > > > > "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > > > > > On top of the names Phyciodes pratensis and Colias pseudochristina which > > > violate the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature; I just > > noticed > > > another error in Butterflies through Binoculars - the west. This one is > > > Phyciodes selenis. A thorough review of Phyciodes nomenclature that was > > > published some years ago made it clear that the correct name according > > to > > > the rules is Phyciodes cocyta. Cocyta has been used by most authors > > since > > > then, except for those few people who still like to lump cocyta with > > tharos > > > despite the evidence to the contrary. The reason is a simple matter of > > 60 > > > years priority of cocyta over selenis. There is an added issue which is > > not > > > yet widely known. Cocyta has a neotype. It is not known if selenis even > > has > > > any syntypes. It certainly does not have a lectotype nor neotype. Last > > > winter I read the original description of selenis and it is clearly a > > nomen > > > dubium (name of uncertain application). I pointed this out to a few > > other > > > people who then read the OD and also came to the same conclusion. Of > > course > > > people who do not want to play by the rules can continue to use > > pratensis > > > and selenis and whatever else they want to :-) > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > > > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > > > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > > > Phone 250-365-8610 > > > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > > > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > -- ================================================ Michael Gochfeld, MD, PhD Professor of Environmental and Community Medicine UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute 170 Frelinghuysen Road Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA 732-445-0123 X627 fax 732-445-0130 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com Tue Sep 4 09:36:00 2001 From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:36:00 -0400 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2@tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us> <3B93E1A0.16F270BE@extremezone.com> Message-ID: <005a01c13546$897c6ba0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> Stan - You're right, people do things that seem absolutely nuts to us, but by their frame of reference they are perfectly correct. Have you ever invited your neighbors over into your "paradise" and shown then a family of quail, the butterflies coming to native wildflowers, and all of the other things that make your yard special? Perhaps they think all those critters just "show up", or even worse, think that their property only harbors scorpions and rattlesnakes and the only way to make it "safe" is to kill every living thing in it. Clay Taylor ctaylor at att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley A. Gorodenski" Cc: Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS > With regard to anyone having the 'right' to do whatever they darn well > want to, simply because for a short, very short, segment of evolutionary > time they happen to have been 'given' a so called 'right' by only one of > many other species on this planet (which has, by the way, evolved to its > present evolutionary development in a relatively short evolutionary > period of time) it seems to me that there must be some sort of > compromise made of this so called 'right'. My feelings on this stem > from the following events. > > I own property near Prescott, Arizona. When I constructed on it I > consciously made an effort to disturb the land as little as possible. I > love to see the quail, rabbits, horned toads, tarantula's, blue birds, > road runners, insects, etc., and above all the butterflies in my living > area. I did not want this to disappear. This is a high desert area, > but I really like the grassy shrub oak terrain, and like to hear and see > the wind blowing the grass. Recently, a neighbor bought the property > next to me and then proceeded to bulldoze all the the surface of over > two acres of land. There was no apparent reason to do this. He will > not actively use this area, but I imagine to him he has 'improved' the > property. To me it is an eye sore, and in the process of bulldozing his > land he has destroyed the habitat of many vertebrate and invertebrate > species. > > Another neighbor near me who moved in about two years ago proceeded to > again defoliate and make barren the acres him and his wife owns. First > they fenced it in, and then his wife spent weeks actually BY HAND > pulling the natural vegetation (they look upon natural vegetation as > 'weeds' - really weird) on this 2+ acre parcel of land. When that did > not work because of regrowth, they then hauled in truck loads of sand to > cover the area in the hope that that will keep these so called 'weeds' > down. These people are absolutely insane!!!! > > I see this kind of stuff over and over in the area of my property. I > consider it paradise, but it seems like most property owners do not see > this or do not have any appreciation of nature. They seem to be > motivated by some misguided value that if they haven't scarred and > mauled their property sufficiently, they may not be looked upon > favorably by their neighbors. If they are not well-to-do enough to own > a small dozer, they get out their weed eater on a Sunday to mow down > these so called 'weeds'. All these activities go way-way beyond fire > safety considerations. They seem to consider 'nature' as an enemy, and, > thus, are themselves enemies of nature. Give man/woman the means, and > they will use these means to destroy, e.g., if the two property owners I > mentioned could not have afforded a small dozer, or pay to have it done, > it would not be done. What the ability to blast and destroy the > mountainous area near Prescott is doing to the beauty of the area to > simply put in a Wall Mart, or some other shopping center, instead of > being more environmentally conscious, is another story. > > Because I see this over and over, it does seem to me that there needs to > be some compromise made to this so called 'right', which most interpret > as a god given 'right', or some kind of 'right' in the sense of a > natural law. I am continually dumbfounded over the way people destroy > the natural treasures they have. With respect to the property owner > near Cloudcroft, based on the prevalent human behaviour I have observed > around my property, it seems safe to predict that the owner will scrape, > scar, and destroy much more habitat than necessary to use the land as > he/she wants to use it. > > Stan > > > David Smith wrote: > > > > Hello, > > What everyone seems to overlook in these debates is that someone owns > > the land that you are talking about and very reasonably has plans for it. If > > that person cannot use the land in the way that they want to then the > > government should reemburse him (or her) for their loss. That is the way > > things have historically worked (at least in the U. S.) and that is the only > > honest way to do it. If the government does not reemburse the owner then > > they are thieves. Why should one person or organisation bear the burden of > > preserving a species, subspecies, or local population of an organism? Don't > > get me wrong, I am in favor of habitat preservation but I don't think > > another should bear the burden for what I want done. > > David Smith > > "Mike Quinn" wrote in message > > news:22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD1A3A2 at tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us... > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: NEWS at fws.gov [mailto:NEWS at fws.gov] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:03 PM > > > To: fws-news at lists.fws.gov > > > Subject: [fws-news] SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT TO LIST > > > NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************** > > > This message is from the fws-news listserver. > > > ************************************************************** > > > > > > Chris Tollefson 202-208-5634 > > > > > > SERVICE, CONSERVATION GROUPS REACH AGREEMENT > > > TO LIST NEW SPECIES UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT > > > > > > Interior Secretary Gale Norton today announced that the U.S. Fish and > > > Wildlife Service and several conservation organizations have reached an > > > agreement in principle that will enable the Service to complete work on > > > evaluations of numerous species proposed for listing under the Endangered > > > Species Act. > > > > > > Under this agreement with the Center for Biological Diversity, Southern > > > Appalachian Biodiversity Project, California Native Plant Society, and the > > > Biodiversity Legal Foundation, the Service will issue final listing > > > decisions for 14 species and propose eight more species for listing. The > > > Service also will be able to take action on four citizen petitions to list > > > species under the Act. The Service and the organizations have agreed to > > > extend deadlines for eight other critical habitat designations, thereby > > > making funds available for these actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carson wandering skipper (Nevada and California): Emergency Listing > > > > > > This species of skipper butterfly, Pseudocopaeodes eunus, is the only one > > > in it genus. It is found locally distributed in grassland habitats on > > > alkaline substrates in Nevada and California. The skipper depends on > > > saltgrass communities with a freshwater source nearby to support nectar > > > sources. This subspecies is threatened by habitat fragmentation, > > > degradation, and loss primarily due to agriculture, livestock grazing, and > > > urban development. Non-native plant invasion and impacts from proposed > > > water development projects which can alter local hydrology are also > > > threats. The genus of skipper butterfly is believed to include five > > > subspecies: One of the subspecies, P. e. obscurus, currently found in > > only > > > two populations, one in Washoe County, Nevada and the other in Lassen > > > County, California. A third population of P.e. obscurus known from > > Carson > > > City, Nevada is believed to have been extirpated from that site in recent > > > years. > > > > > > > > > Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly (New Mexico): Proposed Listing > > > Rule > > > > > > The Sacramento Mountains checkerspot butterfly is restricted to the > > > vicinity of Cloudcroft in the Sacramento Mountains in Otero County, New > > > Mexico. The species is threatened by destruction and fragmentation of > > > habitat from private and commercial development, habitat degradation and > > > loss of host plants from grazing, encroachment of conifers and non-native > > > vegetation into non- forested openings, over-collection, and, due to its > > > limited range, vulnerability to local extirpations from extreme weather > > > events or catastrophic wildfire including fire suppression activities. > > > > > > Miami blue butterfly (Florida): 90-day Finding > > > > > > The Miami blue is a small butterfly with bright blue forewings on both > > > sexes, a wide dark outer border on the forewing in females, and an > > > orange-capped eyespot on the hindwing. This subspecies once occurred from > > > mainland peninsular Florida, as far north as Hillsborough and Volusia > > > counties, southward to south Florida and the Keys, including the Dry > > > Tortugas. > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > > News releases are also available on the World Wide Web at > > > http://news.fws.gov > > > > > > Questions concerning a particular news release or item of > > > information should be directed to the person listed as the > > > contact. General comments or observations concerning the > > > content of the information should be directed to Mitch Snow > > > (Mitch_Snow at fws.gov) in the Office of Public Affairs. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the fws-news listserver, send e-mail to > > > fws-news-request at lists.fws.gov. Enter "unsubscribe" in the subject field. > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu Tue Sep 4 10:16:48 2001 From: JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu (DR. JAMES ADAMS) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:16:48 -0400 Subject: genera In-Reply-To: <3B901784.3465@mb.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200109041412.KAA07164@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> Xi, > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor Day weekend), but I may have a different one. The answer to this question is simple. Differences of interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of some kind of ecological connection). So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. James Dr. James K. Adams Dept. of Natural Science and Math Dalton State College 213 N. College Drive Dalton, GA 30720 Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) U of Michigan's President James Angell's Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jshuey at tnc.org Tue Sep 4 10:14:14 2001 From: jshuey at tnc.org (John Shuey) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:14:14 -0500 Subject: Economy Class Curatorial Award References: <3B925E7F.34696D8D@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: <3B94E1B6.D16BC420@tnc.org> I know this is in jest (at least partially), but I've actually seen this done for a personal collection here in Indiana. Ernie Shull (author of the Butterflies of Indiana) explained to me that new refrigerators are cheaper than cabinets, in fact about 1/3rd the price. So he has his refrigerators lined up in the basement (energy efficiency stickers still attached) full of insects. I'm reasonably sure none of these units have ever been plugged in. John Shuey Bill Cornelius wrote: > Hi: > The following is my semi-fatuous submission for this years Economy Class > Curatorial Award: > > Are you tired of having to maintain a constant humidity for the entire > basement? > > Are you tired of the rising cost of metal cabinets? > > Does your Board of Trustees wince when you give your quarterly report? > > Try ?Used Refrigerators?! They have those bug proof magnetic gasket > doors. They?re cheap or free, pull out the guts & a little tub caulking > or Bondo on the various flashings will make them bug proof, & they can > be linked in series or parallel with flexible conduit or stovepipe to a > single small dehumidifier. They also come in assorted colors to take > that tired grey-green curse off the storage room. (a few pictures of > kitties & duckies on the doors helps too). > > So if YOUR board of trustees moans every time you ask for more storage, > Tell them about ?Used Refrigerators? and be ready for the applause! > > Another advantage is that the interiors usually have room left over for > LARGE trays of silica gel, the summer storage of your winter woolens, or > for other nighttime projects. (ask about my recipe for Museum Jerky, > regular Napthalene flavor or new Classic Natron) > > Bill > > PS: the interior plastic is affected by napthalene, (if you use it), but > enameled tin liners w/ plywood doorskin to replace the trim works arn't. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Jeffrey.Oliver at Colorado.EDU Tue Sep 4 11:44:43 2001 From: Jeffrey.Oliver at Colorado.EDU (OLIVER JEFFREY CATLIN) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:44:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: genera In-Reply-To: <200109041412.KAA07164@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> Message-ID: Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some trait which may have lead to it's radiation. Jeff Oliver jeffrey.oliver at colorado.edu On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, DR. JAMES ADAMS wrote: > Xi, > > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? > > There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this > question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor > Day weekend), but I may have a different one. > > The answer to this question is simple. Differences of > interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying > idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is > concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all > higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by > humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, > etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case > of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. > Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other > evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no > importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of > some kind of ecological connection). > > So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. > > James > > Dr. James K. Adams > Dept. of Natural Science and Math > Dalton State College > 213 N. College Drive > Dalton, GA 30720 > Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 > http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) > U of Michigan's President James Angell's > Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Tue Sep 4 11:43:34 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:43:34 -0400 Subject: Why Mitoura? Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C33@NTFS2> Ron's writings on taxa, systematics, and the classification of Lepidoptera are always insightful, informative, based on fact wherever possible, and followed up with references. They are always in keeping with the methodology that we grew up with. The recent, "modern" systematics can be summed up in three words: "Red Spotted Admiral". Alex Grkovich P.S. One more comment: Recent writings almost totally ignore Life Zones, Rainfall Zones and other important and interesting factors related to butterfly distributions to the point where one might suppose that different species/subspecies have range limitations based upon chance or "personal decision"; as if a Hoary Comma is not found south of, say, the White Mountains of New Hampshire because it is too lazy to fly southward. Naturally, there would be no reason to point out that such a species might not range south of the Canadian Zone forest. God forbid that we "modern" scientists get that highly technical. Why doesn't someone finally inform the "masses" the very simple fact that if one leaves the Lower Austral Zone he or she will probably not see Palamedes Swallowtails? Is this too difficult? > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 2:39 AM > To: Leps-l; gwang at mb.sympatico.ca > Subject: Why Mitoura? > > > "gwang" wrote > > Hi Ron, > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? In Butterflies of Canada, the authors > > give the following reason for regarding Mitoura as a subgenus of > > Callophrys: "The tenuous nature of the characters separating these > > 'genera' were illustrated by Warren and Robbins (1993) in their report > > of a hybrid between 'Incisalia' augustinus and 'Callophrys' sheridanii. > > In particualr, the valve 'cap' (a sclerotized thickened area at the apex > > of the male valve), used to characterize Incisalia, is shown to be > > present also in Mitoura and Callophrys, but expressed to a lesser > > degree." (page 25) Is this somehow incorrect, or has some new evidence > > been discovered which justifies this split? Are the other 'subgenera' > > really separate genera? > > > > Peace, > > Xi Wang > > > > Hi, > Good topic. I have actually been wondering when this topic would be > brought > up. > No I have not addressed this publicly but am happy to do so - although > email style dictates some brevity which is not my forte. This is such an > important topic I want to answer your post to the general audience. > > You have asked the wrong question. The question is not- why is Mitoura a > genus - but why the heck are some not recognizing it as a genus and > lumping > it (and other genera) under Callophrys? In the B.of Canada they give > their > reason - which is pretty lame. > They base their decision primarily on the _"report"_ they referred to by > Warren and Robbins. So lets look at this "report". > > 1) Why is it called a report? Because it is _not_ an article. > 2) It is a "general note" - a secondary type of "report" below a truly > professional level but just above a Newsletter type of report. And way > way below the type of definitive scientific systematic paper that deals > with taxa at the generic level. > 3) The Note is basically one page of text, one page of pictures and one > page of a chart. > 4) The Note has nothing to do with assessing and concluding a generic > level matter. It is the simple reporting of what the authors themselves > called a "presumed hybrid" between what they referred to as Incisalia > augustinus and Callophrys sheridanii. They _never_ call augustinus a > Callophrys. The word Mitoura is mentioned once - in passing. They never > render a verdict relative to generic rank or alignment - simply because it > is not an "article" about that topic but a "note" on a "presumed hybrid". > (Which by its picture looks much like a simple augustinus aberation to > me.) > Here is the very last sentence in that paper - their conclusion if you > will. > "While the presumed hybrid provides no information on phylogeny within > Callophrys (genetic similarity is shared primative traits derived from the > last common ancestor), it indicates that Incisalia and Callophrys are > genetically very simalar, whether they are considered subgenera or > genera." > 5) This Note makes no congeneric conclusion WHATSOEVER. "Incisalia AND > callophrys" is how they leave it. > > It is apparent that between the lines Warren and Robbins _opinion_ is > that they lean to (or consider) these various species congeneric. Many > others do not share that opinion. Nor is anyone obligated by any rule > (i.e. > ICZN) to follow it. Genera and subgenera are very subjective taxonomic > categories. The question is _not_ why are Incisalia, Mitoura and others > split out - the question is why the heck were they lumped after decades of > stability as full genera based on some "note" on a "presumed" hybrid? > There are various kinds of intergeneric etc hybrids. Just because one > can cross Troides with Ornithoptera are we to now just eliminate one > genus? > Are we to just return to the days of only Thecla and Papilio? An > augustinus > X sheridanii cross in and of itself means nothing. Which, by the way, is > not even a fact. The specimen was collected amid a 100% colony of > augustinus. The authors acknowledged that the nearest sheridanii were a > good 100 meters away. You should see a couple of the wild grynea > aberrations I have - especially one which will be in our next TILS > Newsletter. > Let's talk about real Elfin science. In 1992 Dr. Kurt Johnson > published > a 141 page research paper on the Palaearctic "Elfin" Butterflies. In this > European published generic level monograph he also briefly touched on the > Elfins of the new world. Here is a real good question. Why did the authors > of B. of Canada ignore this science? I bet they did not ever know of it - > that's why. I have discussed this paper before on Leps-l and at one point > posted the paper's entire generic layout of the North American species. > It > is Deciduphagus augustinus by the way since Johnson's paper. > Butterflies of British Columbia 2001 by Guppy and Shepard utilizes > Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The Massive 1998 Systematics of Western > North Ameircan Butterflies utilizes Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The > 1997 Butterfies of West Virginia by Allen employs Mitoura not Callophrys > as > the appropriate genus. Nielsen in the 1999 Butterflies & Skippers of > Michigan likewise does not use Callophrys but Incisalia for the relative > eastern taxa. > There are several larger questions here. The informed opinion of some > of us is that way too much taxonomy is now being presented in books for > public consumption based only on the opinion of a "click" and not > published > science. This is taxonomy by decree - not research. Don't be surprised if > science demonstrates that siva and grynea really are different species > too. > And people think they are getting stability. > Xi, thanks again for opening up this topic. Don't be surprised if some > professional jealously now pops its head up and the clicks begin to butt > heads - or be butt heads. > > Ron Gatrelle, president > The International Lepidoptera Survey > http://tils-ttr.org ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu Tue Sep 4 11:53:50 2001 From: JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu (DR. JAMES ADAMS) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:53:50 -0400 Subject: genera In-Reply-To: References: <200109041412.KAA07164@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> Message-ID: <200109041549.LAA07409@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010904/8c0d291c/attachment.bin From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Tue Sep 4 12:52:48 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:52:48 -0700 Subject: Why Mitoura? Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB408@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Just to add to Alex's PS re the importance of placing organisms in their ecological and geographic context. It is a sad fact that some people take a brief look at museum specimens and conclude that name Y is intermediate between name X and name Z. They then further conclude that therefore these are all the same species or that there is no point in recognizing them as subspecies. Unfortunately people who do such things all too frequently have zero knowledge of the geography and ecology of the areas that the named taxa inhabit and they make the erroneous assumption that visual 'intermediacy' equates to taxonomic 'intermediacy'. A quick example comes to mind. One correspondent has expressed the view that Polygonia oreas threatfuli is intermediate between Polygonia oreas silenus and Polygonia oreas oreas and therefore it does not deserve a subspecies name. This is bizarre logic. The published record is quite clear that all three taxa are geographically isolated (ignore the published range maps because they join the distribution records on the basis of assumption;use the published distribution maps) and live in quite different ecosytems with distinct biogeographic histories and there is no evidence of any interaction that could produce 'intermediate' specimens/populations. The published distribution information in terms of spatial deployment on the landscape makes it perfectly clear that threafuli cannot be intermediate in a real biological or ecological sense. If someone is sitting on evidence of continuous populations linking these taxa then I would sure like to see that published. Further, silenus is grossly and obviously different from both oreas and threatfuli. My recollection (subject to a literature check) is that silenus was published as a distinct species and nothing has ever been published to demonstrate otherwise. Of course we should not discount the influence of differing color and pattern discrimination skills as a driver on some of these taxonomic issues :-) -----Original Message----- From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:44 AM To: 'Ron Gatrelle'; Leps-l; gwang at mb.sympatico.ca Subject: RE: Why Mitoura? Ron's writings on taxa, systematics, and the classification of Lepidoptera are always insightful, informative, based on fact wherever possible, and followed up with references. They are always in keeping with the methodology that we grew up with. The recent, "modern" systematics can be summed up in three words: "Red Spotted Admiral". Alex Grkovich P.S. One more comment: Recent writings almost totally ignore Life Zones, Rainfall Zones and other important and interesting factors related to butterfly distributions to the point where one might suppose that different species/subspecies have range limitations based upon chance or "personal decision"; as if a Hoary Comma is not found south of, say, the White Mountains of New Hampshire because it is too lazy to fly southward. Naturally, there would be no reason to point out that such a species might not range south of the Canadian Zone forest. God forbid that we "modern" scientists get that highly technical. Why doesn't someone finally inform the "masses" the very simple fact that if one leaves the Lower Austral Zone he or she will probably not see Palamedes Swallowtails? Is this too difficult? > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 2:39 AM > To: Leps-l; gwang at mb.sympatico.ca > Subject: Why Mitoura? > > > "gwang" wrote > > Hi Ron, > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? In Butterflies of Canada, the authors > > give the following reason for regarding Mitoura as a subgenus of > > Callophrys: "The tenuous nature of the characters separating these > > 'genera' were illustrated by Warren and Robbins (1993) in their report > > of a hybrid between 'Incisalia' augustinus and 'Callophrys' sheridanii. > > In particualr, the valve 'cap' (a sclerotized thickened area at the apex > > of the male valve), used to characterize Incisalia, is shown to be > > present also in Mitoura and Callophrys, but expressed to a lesser > > degree." (page 25) Is this somehow incorrect, or has some new evidence > > been discovered which justifies this split? Are the other 'subgenera' > > really separate genera? > > > > Peace, > > Xi Wang > > > > Hi, > Good topic. I have actually been wondering when this topic would be > brought > up. > No I have not addressed this publicly but am happy to do so - although > email style dictates some brevity which is not my forte. This is such an > important topic I want to answer your post to the general audience. > > You have asked the wrong question. The question is not- why is Mitoura a > genus - but why the heck are some not recognizing it as a genus and > lumping > it (and other genera) under Callophrys? In the B.of Canada they give > their > reason - which is pretty lame. > They base their decision primarily on the _"report"_ they referred to by > Warren and Robbins. So lets look at this "report". > > 1) Why is it called a report? Because it is _not_ an article. > 2) It is a "general note" - a secondary type of "report" below a truly > professional level but just above a Newsletter type of report. And way > way below the type of definitive scientific systematic paper that deals > with taxa at the generic level. > 3) The Note is basically one page of text, one page of pictures and one > page of a chart. > 4) The Note has nothing to do with assessing and concluding a generic > level matter. It is the simple reporting of what the authors themselves > called a "presumed hybrid" between what they referred to as Incisalia > augustinus and Callophrys sheridanii. They _never_ call augustinus a > Callophrys. The word Mitoura is mentioned once - in passing. They never > render a verdict relative to generic rank or alignment - simply because it > is not an "article" about that topic but a "note" on a "presumed hybrid". > (Which by its picture looks much like a simple augustinus aberation to > me.) > Here is the very last sentence in that paper - their conclusion if you > will. > "While the presumed hybrid provides no information on phylogeny within > Callophrys (genetic similarity is shared primative traits derived from the > last common ancestor), it indicates that Incisalia and Callophrys are > genetically very simalar, whether they are considered subgenera or > genera." > 5) This Note makes no congeneric conclusion WHATSOEVER. "Incisalia AND > callophrys" is how they leave it. > > It is apparent that between the lines Warren and Robbins _opinion_ is > that they lean to (or consider) these various species congeneric. Many > others do not share that opinion. Nor is anyone obligated by any rule > (i.e. > ICZN) to follow it. Genera and subgenera are very subjective taxonomic > categories. The question is _not_ why are Incisalia, Mitoura and others > split out - the question is why the heck were they lumped after decades of > stability as full genera based on some "note" on a "presumed" hybrid? > There are various kinds of intergeneric etc hybrids. Just because one > can cross Troides with Ornithoptera are we to now just eliminate one > genus? > Are we to just return to the days of only Thecla and Papilio? An > augustinus > X sheridanii cross in and of itself means nothing. Which, by the way, is > not even a fact. The specimen was collected amid a 100% colony of > augustinus. The authors acknowledged that the nearest sheridanii were a > good 100 meters away. You should see a couple of the wild grynea > aberrations I have - especially one which will be in our next TILS > Newsletter. > Let's talk about real Elfin science. In 1992 Dr. Kurt Johnson > published > a 141 page research paper on the Palaearctic "Elfin" Butterflies. In this > European published generic level monograph he also briefly touched on the > Elfins of the new world. Here is a real good question. Why did the authors > of B. of Canada ignore this science? I bet they did not ever know of it - > that's why. I have discussed this paper before on Leps-l and at one point > posted the paper's entire generic layout of the North American species. > It > is Deciduphagus augustinus by the way since Johnson's paper. > Butterflies of British Columbia 2001 by Guppy and Shepard utilizes > Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The Massive 1998 Systematics of Western > North Ameircan Butterflies utilizes Mitoura and Callophrys as genera. The > 1997 Butterfies of West Virginia by Allen employs Mitoura not Callophrys > as > the appropriate genus. Nielsen in the 1999 Butterflies & Skippers of > Michigan likewise does not use Callophrys but Incisalia for the relative > eastern taxa. > There are several larger questions here. The informed opinion of some > of us is that way too much taxonomy is now being presented in books for > public consumption based only on the opinion of a "click" and not > published > science. This is taxonomy by decree - not research. Don't be surprised if > science demonstrates that siva and grynea really are different species > too. > And people think they are getting stability. > Xi, thanks again for opening up this topic. Don't be surprised if some > professional jealously now pops its head up and the clicks begin to butt > heads - or be butt heads. > > Ron Gatrelle, president > The International Lepidoptera Survey > http://tils-ttr.org ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Tue Sep 4 13:15:44 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:15:44 -0700 Subject: Economy Class Curatorial Award References: <3B925E7F.34696D8D@mail.mcn.org>, <3B94E1B6.D16BC420@tnc.org> Message-ID: <3B950C40.4B65D51C@mail.mcn.org> Alas, another invention undone, but I'm gratified. I'd bet that refrigerator manufacturers would make up a short run without all the compressors, etc. for even less. I was making a salmon smoker from one found on the side of the road; (Jeez! & people just throw these things away...). Land fills charge to take them, an add in the paper (with minimum dimensions) would give one a choice. Bill John Shuey wrote: > I know this is in jest (at least partially), but I've actually seen this > done for a personal collection here in Indiana. Ernie Shull (author of the > Butterflies of Indiana) explained to me that new refrigerators are cheaper > than cabinets, in fact about 1/3rd the price. So he has his refrigerators > lined up in the basement (energy efficiency stickers still attached) full > of insects. I'm reasonably sure none of these units have ever been plugged > in. > > John Shuey > > Bill Cornelius wrote: > > > Hi: > > The following is my semi-fatuous submission for this years Economy Class > > Curatorial Award: > > > > Are you tired of having to maintain a constant humidity for the entire > > basement? > > > > Are you tired of the rising cost of metal cabinets? > > > > Does your Board of Trustees wince when you give your quarterly report? > > > > Try ?Used Refrigerators?! They have those bug proof magnetic gasket > > doors. They?re cheap or free, pull out the guts & a little tub caulking > > or Bondo on the various flashings will make them bug proof, & they can > > be linked in series or parallel with flexible conduit or stovepipe to a > > single small dehumidifier. They also come in assorted colors to take > > that tired grey-green curse off the storage room. (a few pictures of > > kitties & duckies on the doors helps too). > > > > So if YOUR board of trustees moans every time you ask for more storage, > > Tell them about ?Used Refrigerators? and be ready for the applause! > > > > Another advantage is that the interiors usually have room left over for > > LARGE trays of silica gel, the summer storage of your winter woolens, or > > for other nighttime projects. (ask about my recipe for Museum Jerky, > > regular Napthalene flavor or new Classic Natron) > > > > Bill > > > > PS: the interior plastic is affected by napthalene, (if you use it), but > > enameled tin liners w/ plywood doorskin to replace the trim works arn't. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > >  > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >  For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > >  http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl >  ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Tue Sep 4 14:44:14 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:44:14 -0400 Subject: Economy Class Curatorial Award References: <3B925E7F.34696D8D@mail.mcn.org>, <3B94E1B6.D16BC420@tnc.org> <3B950C40.4B65D51C@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: <3B9520FE.21FCF0A9@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Alas, if you let the refrigerator companies know your intention, they'll charge you extra for taking out the compressors. Better stick with your roadside treasures. Mike Gochfeld Bill Cornelius wrote: > > Alas, another invention undone, but I'm gratified. I'd bet that refrigerator > manufacturers would make up a short run without all the compressors, etc. for > even less. I was making a salmon smoker from one found on the side of the > road; (Jeez! & people just throw these things away...). Land fills charge to > take them, an add in the paper (with minimum dimensions) would give one a > choice. > > Bill > > John Shuey wrote: > > > I know this is in jest (at least partially), but I've actually seen this > > done for a personal collection here in Indiana. Ernie Shull (author of the > > Butterflies of Indiana) explained to me that new refrigerators are cheaper > > than cabinets, in fact about 1/3rd the price. So he has his refrigerators > > lined up in the basement (energy efficiency stickers still attached) full > > of insects. I'm reasonably sure none of these units have ever been plugged > > in. > > > > John Shuey > > > > Bill Cornelius wrote: > > > > > Hi: > > > The following is my semi-fatuous submission for this years Economy Class > > > Curatorial Award: > > > > > > Are you tired of having to maintain a constant humidity for the entire > > > basement? > > > > > > Are you tired of the rising cost of metal cabinets? > > > > > > Does your Board of Trustees wince when you give your quarterly report? > > > > > > Try ?Used Refrigerators?! They have those bug proof magnetic gasket > > > doors. They?re cheap or free, pull out the guts & a little tub caulking > > > or Bondo on the various flashings will make them bug proof, & they can > > > be linked in series or parallel with flexible conduit or stovepipe to a > > > single small dehumidifier. They also come in assorted colors to take > > > that tired grey-green curse off the storage room. (a few pictures of > > > kitties & duckies on the doors helps too). > > > > > > So if YOUR board of trustees moans every time you ask for more storage, > > > Tell them about ?Used Refrigerators? and be ready for the applause! > > > > > > Another advantage is that the interiors usually have room left over for > > > LARGE trays of silica gel, the summer storage of your winter woolens, or > > > for other nighttime projects. (ask about my recipe for Museum Jerky, > > > regular Napthalene flavor or new Classic Natron) > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > PS: the interior plastic is affected by napthalene, (if you use it), but > > > enameled tin liners w/ plywood doorskin to replace the trim works arn't. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > >  > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >  For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > >  http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > >  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > -- ================================================ Michael Gochfeld, MD, PhD Professor of Environmental and Community Medicine UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute 170 Frelinghuysen Road Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA 732-445-0123 X627 fax 732-445-0130 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From barb at birdnut.obtuse.com Tue Sep 4 14:49:24 2001 From: barb at birdnut.obtuse.com (Barb Beck) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:49:24 -0600 Subject: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS - The Alberta Monster In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB3FA@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: Hi, I really need to point out that Norbert Kondla was dead wrong on a couple points he made concerning the Alberta butterfly counts The Alberta monster was created by much more than work done by my husband and I and a bunch of volunteer compilers and counters. It is based on some good books which allow amateur naturalists to learn relatively easily how to identify our butterflies. The key is that we have books which show our regional forms of the butterflies and field marks which work here. General books which try to only describe a species by its general characteristics ignoring or downplaying subspecies or in our case several probable species which have been lumped for convenience just frustrate beginner and intermediate butterfly watchers. We have books that can for the most part allow us to identify the field identifiable forms we meet in our butterfly counts. Our first book was a great little book to start with, Butterflies of Alberta, which was published about 10 years ago by our very own Nature Nut, John Acorn In it part of the butterflies are photographed in natural poses and the rest depicted by line drawings. He started our provincial butterfly counts and started us butterflying the way we do today with a combination of nets and binoculars. He even went so far as to promote a method devised by Carroll Perkins to convert compact binoculars into close focus binoculars for butterflying before close focus butterfly binoculars were generally available. Johns book has sold between 6000 and 7000 copies - pretty good interest from such a small province. That book was followed shortly by an excellent book by Charlie Bird, Norbert Kondla, Felix Sperling, Jerry Hilchie and Ted Pike, Alberta Butterflies, which describes all of our butterflies and describes the forms we are likely to encounter. For the first time we had pictures of all of our butterflies. It is a valuable asset and the main reference most of us use. The monster is currently being fed even more by hard work done on another book by Chris Guppy and Jon Shepard, The Butterflies of British Columbia , which covers most of the Alberta butterflies. Because this book carefully illustrates the subspecies of the butterflies, our specific form or forms are illustrated in the book giving us another excellent reference. These people put in a lot of time to create regional books for us so we can start to learn what took them years and years of patient study and collecting to master. People do not make money off such books they are labours of love and essentially these guys are important volunteers behind the Alberta Monster. I can only imagine the work it took these people to sort out our species without having their books as a reference. Just as Peterson's field guides stimulated birders to get out and learn their birds these books have done that for Albertans. Furthermore the authors of our butterfly books particularly Norbert Kondla and John Acorn have gone out of their way answer questions and identify specimens and pictures of butterflies which stumped participants. Many of the authors including Norbert participate in our mailing list and are our online help desk. The second point on which Norbert is wrong on is that we do not have 36 counts, we have a few more 8-) Cheers Barb Beck Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca -----Original Message----- From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX [mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca] Sent: August 31, 2001 2:08 PM To: 'rjparcelles at yahoo.com'; VA-MD-DE-Bugs at yahoogroups.com; LEPSrUS; Butterfly-Pixs Cc: Leps-List; Audubon Chat List; Tim Adams; Clay Black; John Calhoun; Patricia Cracraft; KeithSueEllen Kelver; Shirley Don Koerner; Sue Kralojansky; Hattie Lee; Kevin Murrell; Lynda Roger Peters; Laura Schmidt; Anna Terry; Pamela Traas; Bonnie Valentine; Dixie Vassiliou; Lois Weber; Richard Mae Wiggins; 'altabugs'; 'Barb' Subject: RE: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS By Tim Adams Hi Bob. Yes it is great that more and more people are getting out to enjoy butterflies and I am a keen supporter of butterfly counts due to the many good things that come from this activity. However I want to spark a little friendly rivalry and also recognize the work being done along these lines in Alberta, Canada. Please bear with me and do not take this as criticism. I read the article you referenced with interest. I saw with interest that it referred to 421 counts in the USA and then made passing reference to "several" counts in Canada. No sale on the picture painted by this info :-) My understanding is that this year the province of Alberta will have about 36 counts to report on and I think that the numbers have also been substantial the past few years. So this province with a tiny little population has been able to produce almost 10% of the counts produced in an entire country with a population more than 100 times its size. This is a stirling achievement that needs to be recognized. My hat is off to Barb Beck and others who have been leading the charge on butterfly counts in that province. So is there another state or province that has the work ethic and energy to even approach the results achieved by our friends in Alberta, Canada :-) I do not live in Alberta but the guantlet has been dropped anyway :-) Have a good weekend, one and all. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Parcelles,Jr. [mailto:rjparcelles at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 12:38 PM To: VA-MD-DE-Bugs at yahoogroups.com; LEPSrUS; Butterfly-Pixs Cc: Leps-List; Audubon Chat List; Tim Adams; Clay Black; John Calhoun; Patricia Cracraft; KeithSueEllen Kelver; Shirley Don Koerner; Sue Kralojansky; Hattie Lee; Kevin Murrell; Lynda Roger Peters; Laura Schmidt; Anna Terry; Pamela Traas; Bonnie Valentine; Dixie Vassiliou; Lois Weber; Richard Mae Wiggins Subject: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS By Tim Adams Hi, Check out NATURE POTPOURRI ISSUE # 32 for an excellent article on Butterfly Counting by Tim Adams...lots of other bug stuff too! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri/messages naturepotpourri-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ===== Bob Parcelles, Jr Pinellas Park, FL rjparcelles at yahoo.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876 "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin." --William Shakespeare __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From janature at compusmart.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 14:58:49 2001 From: janature at compusmart.ab.ca (John Acorn) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:58:49 -0600 Subject: BUGS: RE: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS - The Alberta Monster Message-ID: <20010904185810Z69364-19852+11264@mail.compusmart.ab.ca> Hi Barb, Thanks for the kind words, but do take credit for your leadership role! We have a great thing here in Alberta, and it is surely a tradition to be proud of. John Acorn ---------- >From: "Barb Beck" >To: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" , "Leps-List" >Cc: "Tim Adams" , "Clay Black" , "John Calhoun" , "Patricia Cracraft" , "KeithSueEllen Kelver" , "Shirley Don Koerner" , "Sue Kralojansky" , "Hattie Lee" , "Kevin Murrell" , "Lynda Roger Peters" , "Laura Schmidt" , "Anna Terry" , "Pamela Traas" , "Bonnie Valentine" , "Dixie Vassiliou" , "Lois Weber" , "Richard Mae Wiggins" , "'altabugs'" , "'Barb'" >Subject: BUGS: RE: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS - The Alberta Monster >Date: Tue, Sep 4, 2001, 12:49 PM > >Hi, > >I really need to point out that Norbert Kondla was dead wrong on a couple >points he made concerning the Alberta butterfly counts > >The Alberta monster was created by much more than work done by my husband >and I and a bunch of volunteer compilers and counters. It is based on some >good books which allow amateur naturalists to learn relatively easily how to >identify our butterflies. The key is that we have books which show our >regional forms of the butterflies and field marks which work here. General >books which try to only describe a species by its general characteristics >ignoring or downplaying subspecies or in our case several probable species >which have been lumped for convenience just frustrate beginner and >intermediate butterfly watchers. We have books that can for the most part >allow us to identify the field identifiable forms we meet in our butterfly >counts. > >Our first book was a great little book to start with, Butterflies of >Alberta, which was published about 10 years ago by our very own Nature Nut, >John Acorn In it part of the butterflies are photographed in natural poses >and the rest depicted by line drawings. He started our provincial butterfly >counts and started us butterflying the way we do today with a combination >of nets and binoculars. He even went so far as to promote a method devised >by Carroll Perkins to convert compact binoculars into close focus binoculars >for butterflying before close focus butterfly binoculars were generally >available. Johns book has sold between 6000 and 7000 copies - pretty good >interest from such a small province. That book was followed shortly by an >excellent book by Charlie Bird, Norbert Kondla, Felix Sperling, Jerry >Hilchie and Ted Pike, Alberta Butterflies, which describes all of our >butterflies and describes the forms we are likely to encounter. For the >first time we had pictures of all of our butterflies. It is a valuable asset >and the main reference most of us use. The monster is currently being fed >even more by hard work done on another book by Chris Guppy and Jon Shepard, >The Butterflies of British Columbia , which covers most of the Alberta >butterflies. Because this book carefully illustrates the subspecies of the >butterflies, our specific form or forms are illustrated in the book giving >us another excellent reference. These people put in a lot of time to create >regional books for us so we can start to learn what took them years and >years of patient study and collecting to master. People do not make money >off such books they are labours of love and essentially these guys are >important volunteers behind the Alberta Monster. I can only imagine the >work it took these people to sort out our species without having their books >as a reference. Just as Peterson's field guides stimulated birders to get >out and learn their birds these books have done that for Albertans. >Furthermore the authors of our butterfly books particularly Norbert Kondla >and John Acorn have gone out of their way answer questions and identify >specimens and pictures of butterflies which stumped participants. Many of >the authors including Norbert participate in our mailing list and are our >online help desk. > >The second point on which Norbert is wrong on is that we do not have 36 >counts, we have a few more 8-) > >Cheers > >Barb Beck >Edmonton, Alberta, Canada >Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX [mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca] >Sent: August 31, 2001 2:08 PM >To: 'rjparcelles at yahoo.com'; VA-MD-DE-Bugs at yahoogroups.com; LEPSrUS; >Butterfly-Pixs >Cc: Leps-List; Audubon Chat List; Tim Adams; Clay Black; John Calhoun; >Patricia Cracraft; KeithSueEllen Kelver; Shirley Don Koerner; Sue >Kralojansky; Hattie Lee; Kevin Murrell; Lynda Roger Peters; Laura Schmidt; >Anna Terry; Pamela Traas; Bonnie Valentine; Dixie Vassiliou; Lois Weber; >Richard Mae Wiggins; 'altabugs'; 'Barb' >Subject: RE: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS By Tim Adams > >Hi Bob. Yes it is great that more and more people are getting out to enjoy >butterflies and I am a keen supporter of butterfly counts due to the many >good things that come from this activity. However I want to spark a little >friendly rivalry and also recognize the work being done along these lines in >Alberta, Canada. Please bear with me and do not take this as criticism. I >read the article you referenced with interest. I saw with interest that it >referred to 421 counts in the USA and then made passing reference to >"several" counts in Canada. No sale on the picture painted by this info :-) >My understanding is that this year the province of Alberta will have about >36 counts to report on and I think that the numbers have also been >substantial the past few years. So this province with a tiny little >population has been able to produce almost 10% of the counts produced in an >entire country with a population more than 100 times its size. This is a >stirling achievement that needs to be recognized. My hat is off to Barb Beck >and others who have been leading the charge on butterfly counts in that >province. So is there another state or province that has the work ethic and >energy to even approach the results achieved by our friends in Alberta, >Canada :-) I do not live in Alberta but the guantlet has been dropped anyway >:-) Have a good weekend, one and all. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Parcelles,Jr. [mailto:rjparcelles at yahoo.com] >Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 12:38 PM >To: VA-MD-DE-Bugs at yahoogroups.com; LEPSrUS; Butterfly-Pixs >Cc: Leps-List; Audubon Chat List; Tim Adams; Clay Black; John Calhoun; >Patricia Cracraft; KeithSueEllen Kelver; Shirley Don Koerner; Sue >Kralojansky; Hattie Lee; Kevin Murrell; Lynda Roger Peters; Laura >Schmidt; Anna Terry; Pamela Traas; Bonnie Valentine; Dixie Vassiliou; >Lois Weber; Richard Mae Wiggins >Subject: COUNTING BUTTERFLYS By Tim Adams > > > >Hi, > >Check out NATURE POTPOURRI ISSUE # 32 for an excellent article >on Butterfly Counting by Tim Adams...lots of other bug stuff >too! > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri/messages >naturepotpourri-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > >===== >Bob Parcelles, Jr >Pinellas Park, FL >rjparcelles at yahoo.com >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri >http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876 > "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin." > --William Shakespeare > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger >http://im.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Tue Sep 4 15:30:52 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:30:52 -0500 Subject: genera In-Reply-To: References: <200109041412.KAA07164@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010904142752.00a79760@mail.utexas.edu> Yes. The clustering of morphological traits is the result of this fractal clumping. ...........Chris Durden At 09:44 AM 9/4/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is >biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some >trait which may have lead to it's radiation. > >Jeff Oliver >jeffrey.oliver at colorado.edu > >On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, DR. JAMES ADAMS wrote: > > > Xi, > > > > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? > > > > There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this > > question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor > > Day weekend), but I may have a different one. > > > > The answer to this question is simple. Differences of > > interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying > > idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is > > concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all > > higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by > > humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, > > etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case > > of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. > > Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other > > evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no > > importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of > > some kind of ecological connection). > > > > So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a > > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. > > > > James > > > > Dr. James K. Adams > > Dept. of Natural Science and Math > > Dalton State College ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Tue Sep 4 15:28:18 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:28:18 -0700 Subject: color scanning problem Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB412@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> I recently plopped a couple of butterflies on a scanner to illustrate the differences between two species and was intrigued to find that the ventral surface of one butterfly which is gray, came out as brown on the scanned image. Any suggestions on how this can be overcome, if possible ?? Get a better scanner ?? fix the color with software afterwards ?? don't use a scanner where color rendition is really important ?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 15:56:53 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:56:53 -0400 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E87@hqmail.gensym.com> Neil Jones wrote: < some really interesting stuff on the life cycle of Euphydryas> and then provided He also said, > > The second reason why, I believe, the USFWS is worried about > overcollection > is THIS LIST. > Over the years there have been people prepared to defend even > the worst > and craziest philatelic collectors. Conswequently it is > hardly surprising that people > are worried. There are just as many, if not more, people on this list who worry about an entirely different evil. I find it increasingly difficult to respect laws that are supposed to be protecting species, when they fail to accomplish their goal. When you suggest that overcollecting (or human predation, or whatever else you want to call it) might be the underlying cause for the elimination of a species (or sub-species), you are seriously downplaying the role played by habitat fragmentation and destruction. You are wrongly shifting the focus away from this obvious problem, and onto the notorious butterfly collector. The result is an intoxication of the public which lullabies them into thinking that as long as the collectors are at bay, the beautiful butterflies are safe. The reality is that 99% of the butterflies are safe anyway, and the other 1% are doomed because their habitat requirements are no longer met - be it due to human or environmental pressures. I don't disagree that there are many cases of "endangered" lepidopteron colonies throughout even unpopulated areas. I don't disagree that local populations under significant threat should potentially be controlled. But please, let's first secure the necessary habitat and give both the leps and the collectors a chance. I'd like to think that El Segundo is an example of where listing has worked. On the other hand, I don't have a lot of confidence that that property is sheltered enough from real estate valuation, nor am I convinced that it's large enough to allow for the various normal spatial fluctuations that you yourself describe. Mark Walker > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 15:59:23 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:59:23 -0400 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E88@hqmail.gensym.com> Neil wrote: > > Listing does work. Not all the time. It is just like chemotherapy but > would you refuse that? Perhaps a better analogy is "it is just like amputation. Would you refuse that?". The answer is: probably. Mark Walker > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Tue Sep 4 16:24:18 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:24:18 -0400 Subject: genera References: Message-ID: <01cb01c1357f$938d1520$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> James Adams wrote: Xi, > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor Day weekend), but I may have a different one. The answer to this question is simple. Differences of interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of some kind of ecological connection). So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. To which Jeffery Oliver replied. Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some trait which may have lead to it's radiation. New stuff from Ron. In these short posts are some very important statments - which perhaps can easily be missed. James first. "A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness." And Jeff. "...it is biologically informative..." There we have it. It is all about humans trying to understand, define and communicate to each other the what, how and why of the natural world. In our interest - Lepidoptera. Isn't more communication better than less? More knowledge and understading? Is this only for a scientific elete - or is it OK for all of us to "know"? Why have we come up with words like clade and grade, geography and panbiogeography, Danaus and gilippus and strigosus and berenice and thersippus and...? To communicate "our" understanding of the natural world. We have discovered fire, the wheel, and even genes. We are suposed to have gone beyond "Me Tarzan, u Jane" "butterfly on pretty thing". Jeff is absolutely correct - the terms inform. Subgenera? Subspecies? Absolutamente! James is almost on the money - "Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of _that_ [newly forming] lineage." The statment should be: Once a _sub_species is genetically arrived into being, what happens to other subspecies of that species (still connected _only_ because they can still reproduce viable X subspecific offspring) are of no importance to the _evolution_ of the new forming linage. Species do not become species. Subspecies become species. Not "in a way" but in factual and intellectual truth, "our" terms of subfamily, subgenera, and subspecies are the most _informative_ areas of study and communication. No wonder folks just see Pearls and not tharos and coyta (heck selenis would do). The new communication is toward ignorance not information. Strigosus, berenice and gilippus are evolutionally far apart - gilippus is only stuck in the following ( D. _g._ strigosus, D. _g._ berenice, D. _g._ gilippus) to "tell us" "by us" they all came from the same parent (not gilippus). We have no idea where each are GOING to. To apply "Queen" to all three of these very different organisms in wrong because it is confusing via dumbing down. Striated Queen has been used in may popular books for years - so who scrapped it? Callophrys, Mitoura, Loranthomitoura are all modes of communication _but_ based on some rational _published_ definition and explanation. Full circle back to Xi's question. Why Mitoura? His question was _specifically_ relative to it not being used in the Butterflies of Canada. The lack of use there was pointed out by Xi per the authors ref to the Warren and Robbins article. Which I in turn pointed out was only a tiny note about a "presumed" hybrid with absolutely _no_ definition let alone explanation of any generic conclusions whatsoever. The B. of Canada's basing their generic usage or lack thereof is thus based on nothing. BUT, is not this all just, as James and many other often say, just a matter of "...differences of interpretation and opinion."? A yes and an emphatic _no_! For there to be an interpretation there must first be something to interpret - data - scientific data. Where there are published papers there can be, will be and should be interpretation but not _alteration_. One can not read something into a paper that is not there. Re opinion. There is no place for opinion without evidence in science period. Hypotheses and theory are informed questions based on rational observations that point to a _suspected_ fact. Well, the earth is flat looked like a good theory - till someone went around it. Once something has been proved as fact NO ONE is free to have an opinion contrary to it - except religious zealots and idiots. Email - how unsuited to this. I'll quit. One other thing though. If all these ranks etc are really just man made (professor so n so made) and there is "no such thing as" like James said, _and_ if all our taxonomy and systematics is just "interpretation and opinion" anyway ---- then why all the fuss (from Dr. so n so or so-s ) about Peer Review??????? It is either crap or science. And if science it has to have rules and absolutes as well as theory. This can not always be communicated to the masses in its most fine frog hair splitting elements - but it should be reflected as much as possible. Thus, Mitoura and Striated Queen. Ron PS James and I agree "So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs." I am just saying let's have more Constructs not less (technical and popular), and let's make sure new Constructs actually have a blue print published someplace. James and I have discussed this in private too -- I don't sweat the load any more than he does - I just come across on line like I do ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 17:20:05 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:20:05 -0400 Subject: Saving a population Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E89@hqmail.gensym.com> Clay Taylor wrote: > Mark - > > Instead of wishing you had pinned all of a population that was > eventually doomed (I agree, dead is dead, and it doesn't > matter why), why > didn't you do something to protect / relocate the local > population? It's > not like the developers snuck in under cover of darkness and > bulldozed the > area overnight. Your "silent monitoring" was more like > silent murdering. > You are right, you should be pissed - but at yourself, not the site > developers or failures in the process of listing and > protecting threatened > organisms. > > I will apologize in advance if you and others made > serious efforts that > failed to save that population, but from your letter, it sure > doesn't sound > like it. If there is ANY threatened organism in our backyard that the > public will rally around, it's a butterfly - look at all the > posts recently > describing how the general public flocks to butterfly houses in zoos, > museums, etc., and virtually ignores other exhibits of equal > or greater > natural history value. > > I, for one, would have been pissed long before the > habitat was gone. Perhaps surprisingly, I'll give Clay a concurring nod for much of what he is getting at. On the other hand, I was duped by the existing "butterfly conservation" entities that already exist out here. My "silent monitoring" was simply an occasional and opportunistic drive-by check of the habitat that was supposedly already being monitored and (at least I believed) protected. The bottom line here is not that I didn't do more to save it - but that there was apparently nothing that the existing laws could provide to ensure that money and financial interest wouldn't prevail. So, while I as an individual can always do more, I shoulder no guilt over my actions or lack thereof in this case. As for population/habitat relocation, well now there's a concept. I can just imagine what response I would have solicited had I been caught on the site with a shovel. Hopefully, Clay WAS already pissed about this Checkerspot, as it's existence on the Endangered List is well known and the bug has _enjoyed_ significant press over recent years. I hope he's not suggesting that "collectors secrets" are one of the contributors to species demise. If not for the data from field entomologists (including collectors), we wouldn't likely have known that these endangered populations even existed. Mark Walker > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 18:33:36 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:33:36 -0400 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E8B@hqmail.gensym.com> David Smith wrote: > Hello, > What everyone seems to overlook in these debates is that > someone owns > the land that you are talking about and very reasonably has > plans for it. If > that person cannot use the land in the way that they want to then the > government should reemburse him (or her) for their loss. That > is the way > things have historically worked (at least in the U. S.) and > that is the only > honest way to do it. If the government does not reemburse the > owner then > they are thieves. Why should one person or organisation bear > the burden of > preserving a species, subspecies, or local population of an > organism? Don't > get me wrong, I am in favor of habitat preservation but I don't think > another should bear the burden for what I want done. Valid and pertinent. I contend that this was exactly the case with the described Quino habitat in Murrieta. So Clay is correct - "we" screwed up in not securing the habitat. It was obvious what the outcome would be, given the extent of growth and expansion in the immediate area. Mark Walker. > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 18:54:45 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:54:45 -0400 Subject: how do they do it? seeing larvae Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E8C@hqmail.gensym.com> Yes, I agree - small trees are key. I've watched Papilio rutulus oviposit on small yard trees from the kitchen window of my sisters house. I've also _attempted_ the rearing of both Papilio eurymedon and Papilio multicaudata from eggs and larvae collected from smallish cherry bushes (I qualify the attempt, as I am a particularly bad parent - especially when it comes to lepidoptera). It's possible, for sure, and once you've got a viable population, you can use the screened approach described by others to propagate it. Mark Walker. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sunsol [mailto:SUNSOL at prodigy.net] > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 7:44 PM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: how do they do it? seeing larvae > > > Liz, maybe short trees would work. :) I have a neighbor with > willow out in > front of her house. She has raised Western Tiger Swallowtails > several times. > I planted a cherry leaved holly years ago. I finally found > Pale swallowtail > eggs last year. This year, I actually saw a female laying > eggs and was able > to collect two. I have a caterpillar on my kitchen window > sill right now. It > seems late in the season. I hope it will develop okay. > > Sally > Liz Day wrote in message > news:4.3.2.7.1.20010902000545.00a9e220 at b.pop.kiva.net... > > Just returned from a "collecting" trip (really an "oh my, > looky at that!") > > trip, in which I identified some larvae using the > Caterpillars of Eastern > > Forests book. > > > > This book makes me wonder: Just how did the authors, or > anyone else, > > obtain some of these larvae? > > > > For instance, I have never seen a Tiger Swallowtail larva, > and of most > > sphinx moths, and have no idea how I could do so (besides buying > > them). The female TS won't lay eggs in a paper bag like a > moth. Some > > butterflies you can follow her and pick up the eggs, but I > never see TS > > engaged in egg-laying, just flying rapidly along way up in > the trees > > (usually I can't even keep them in view very long). With > cherry and > other > > host trees, 99% of the plant is out of reach, so I don't > think searching > > for larvae would work well, unless you could do it from a cherry > > picker. So how the heck do people ever see this > caterpillar, other than > by > > pure chance? > > > > Same question, for those kinds of moths that won't lay eggs > in a paper > bag, > > and whose larvae feed up in trees. I'm having caterpillar envy! > > > > Thanks, > > Liz Day > > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA > > daylight at kiva.net > > > > > > Larvae seen in Posey Co., extreme SW Indiana: > > monarch on that vining milkweed > > silver-spotted skipper (egg, too) > > viceroy > > question mark > > buckeye (chrysalis too) > > painted lady (??) > > unknown lycaenid on wingstem attended by ants > > smeared dagger moth (?) on polygonum > > Virginia bear arctiid moth (unbelievably abundant) > > poplar tentmaker prominent moth (defoliating everything in sight) > > 2 different large twig-mimicking inchworms on sandbar willow > > > > At New Harmony, IN, across from the Atheneum, is a field > with apple trees > > and oodles of 6 or 7 kinds of nymphalids feeding on the > rotting fruit > > including tawny emperor. These butterflies were easy to > pick up on your > > finger. Nearby a garden with balsam is loaded with pipevine > swallowtails. > > > > At Mt. Vernon, IN, I had a dramatic look at a pink-spotted > sphinx moth > > drinking from evening primrose around midnight after a > rain. Its eyes > > blazed like neon rubies in my flashlight beam through 20 > feet of fog and > > mist. It flew and hovered with the tongue hanging out like > an elephant's > > trunk. This tongue must have been 3-4" long; the moth > barely needed to > > approach to reach the masses of flowers, which smelled faintly like > > honeysuckle. Amazing. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Liz Day > > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA (40 N, ~86 W) > > Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm > (Eupithecia > > miserulata). > > USDA zone 5b. Winters ~20F, summers ~85F. Formerly > temperate deciduous > > forest. > > daylight at kiva.net > > www.kiva.net/~daylight > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From teri.beiriger at att.net Tue Sep 4 22:57:43 2001 From: teri.beiriger at att.net (Robert Beiriger) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 19:57:43 -0700 Subject: Bugs in drum Message-ID: <00fc01c135b6$89a69400$7c004e0c@terib> Patrice Gill Your best bet is to put the drum in the freezer for about a week, take it out and let it sit around for about a week and then refreeze for about a week. In most cases you will kill all the adults and larvae the first time, but I have had some survival (esp. larvae after the first freeze). Any idea what is feeding on the drum? Just curious Robert Beiriger Loxahatchee, FL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010904/cc19177b/attachment.html From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 20:13:42 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:13:42 -0400 Subject: last weeks field reports - resent Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E96@hqmail.gensym.com> Again, apologies for the repost - but I wanted to make sure the species lists were successfully transmitted. Believe it or not, there are a few who like to keep track of what I'm seeing and where. I further apologize if this fails to transmit again. I don't know what the story is on these phantom posts, but it's frustrating, to say the least. Ignore if uninterested: --------------------------------- Saturday, August 25 Northern California includes some of my favorite countryside. I have relatives in Plumas County, and I almost moved there once. My wife would have no part of it. Back to the road trip at hand - I left Reno kind of late, and decided to put some highway behind me. About 20 miles north, I was detoured momentarily by a man who was having a heart attack on the side of the road. There were at least 15 people assisting - working frantically to revive the poor guy. These were all motorists who decided that a man lying beside his truck parked on the shoulder of the road was a reason to change their whole daily plan. It's an amazing sight to see people working together for a noble cause - when you know that any one of them alone might be more prone to fretting. We really can do good things - when we put our heads together. I'm refreshed to know that it can still happen - I almost forgot. The man was amazingly still alive when professional help arrived. The police responded rather quickly - about 15 minutes (not bad for this part of the country). A fire truck was about 5 minutes behind, and an ambulance another 5. I don't know what the outcome was. Soon I was back on the road, wondering about the high cholesterol warning I had just received last week - and the bear claw pastries sitting on the passenger seat. Hmmmm. Warner Mountains, Modoc County, CA My first time in Modoc. I'll be back. The Warner Mountains are incredible. On the road up to Cedar Pass you can see Mount Shasta in the distance - over 14,000 ft. and still covered with snow. The habitat is mostly evergreen, and the pass is just above 6000 ft. - the highest peaks close to 10,000 ft. Because of the late start, I didn't arrive until almost noon. The leps were already quite busy. Not much nectar - other than the rabbitbrush, which was plentiful, blooming, and sufficient. It turns out that this far north, the stuff is pretty appealing - if you're a lep, at least. More Fritillaries! They abound - several on virtually every rabbitbrush plant. Easily spooked, but nettable. The Fritts up here confound me. You check the literature, and virtually every species has a light form, a dark form, a marginal banded form, silvered, unsilvered - depending on what mountain range you're standing in. Applying my best Fritillary id'ing skills (which pretty much suck), I believe that I have at least three different species. A very large Speyeria coronis, and a somewhat smaller Speyeria zerene - both silvered, the latter with a dark purplish brown ventral ground color. There were also female Speyeria cybele on the wing - ssp. leto. This is unmistakingly different - almost black and white. I spooked one out of the grass in a wet meadow. I didn't see any males. There were also tons and tons of skippers. The most common was Ochlodes sylvanoides. Also common was Hesperia comma. There were Pine Whites floating about the pines, occasionally coming down for nectar. Also Hoary Commas and California Tortoiseshells. I drove over the pass into Surprise Valley, where agriculture is alive and well. When I saw the familiar yellow of swarming of Colias philodice, I couldn't help myself - and stopped for a swing on Old McDonalds Farm. Even with all the travel I do, these are the first Common Sulphurs I've seen since I left Vermont in 1998. Unfortunately, I made a spectacle of myself. I have a nagging pinched nerve in my back that has rendered my left side numb and immobile (thoughts of laying in the side of the road with various motorists scrambling above). The ailment has rendered a clumsy lepidopterist even more particularly goofy looking. Miss after miss, I danced like a drunken sailor (I used to be one of these, so I know) about Ol' McDonalds pasture. I finally bagged a few, but that was pretty bad considering how plentiful they were. Ol' McDonald must have had quite the entertaining experience - over yonder on front-porch swing. I'm half surprised he didn't greet me with his shotgun. Other leps were in the old timers pasture - including Purplish Coppers and Checkered Skippers. From jjcardinal at aol.com Tue Sep 4 19:56:32 2001 From: jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) Date: 04 Sep 2001 23:56:32 GMT Subject: bugs eating my drum PLEASE HELP References: <3B942BF6.47F3F9F1@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20010904195632.01645.00002571@mb-cc.aol.com> >I got my djembe two years ago and have not used it for a month or >soo...mental note have to quit job to get more drumming time...any how I > >have noticed saw dust on the ground around my drum and have observed >small bug in the dust and in the drum.The drum was imported from africa. >The bug are about 1mm long (1/32th of an inch). Little holes have now >appered on >the outside of the drum. I have tried isecticides to no avail, some one >has suggested to freeze my drum for a week?!! PLEASE HELP ME MY DRUM IS >MELTING FAST. > I had this happen with imported, wooden statuary. When I called the local FDA they said to burn the items immediately. They were concerned with infestation of a non-native species. Being I had quite a shipment of these items I was required to acquire a burn permit. These permits are given out first come-first served. I was allowed to burn them the afternoon I called. They could be very serious pests. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 4 21:11:28 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:11:28 -0400 Subject: last weeks field reports - resent Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E99@hqmail.gensym.com> Wow - that pisses me off. The data is still getting chopped off. I'm going to have to rewrite the whole thing. Let me know if you're particularly interested in species sightings from Grant, Co. Oregon and Modoc County, California. Perhaps by the time I rewrite these, I'll have specific information on Fritillary species/ssp. Thanks for your patience. Mark Walker. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Walker [mailto:MWalker at gensym.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 5:14 PM > To: 'leps-l at lists.yale.edu' > Subject: last weeks field reports - resent > > > Again, apologies for the repost - but I wanted to make sure > the species > lists were successfully transmitted. Believe it or not, > there are a few who > like to keep track of what I'm seeing and where. I further > apologize if > this fails to transmit again. I don't know what the story is on these > phantom posts, but it's frustrating, to say the least. > > Ignore if uninterested: > > --------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From ghg3 at aol.com Tue Sep 4 21:07:05 2001 From: ghg3 at aol.com (GHG3) Date: 05 Sep 2001 01:07:05 GMT Subject: My Darapsa pholus pupa Message-ID: <20010904210705.00482.00004050@mb-fd.aol.com> On July 21 this year, I was sitting on my northern Rhode Island deck puffing on a cuban that was snuck back from Paris by my loving sister. For some stupid reason, I set it down on the railing, and next thing I new it was over the edge, lost in the vinca. I went searching, and never found it. The sun was going down. But while on my hands and knees, I had the pleasure of watching a female Darapsa pholus laying eggs on my Viburnum carlesii. I snagged a couple leaves that she had daintily touched her abdomen to, and through the month of August raised two larva on V. carlesii and V. prunifolium. Both made it to the last instar, but only one has formed a pupa. This is my first attempt. What do I do now? Put it in the Fridge? George ghg3 at aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From webmaster at insectnet.com Tue Sep 4 21:28:55 2001 From: webmaster at insectnet.com (Clark) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:28:55 GMT Subject: Here's a list of 23 specimen suppliers with URL's Message-ID: http://www.insectnet.com/suppliers.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Tue Sep 4 23:22:13 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:22:13 -0700 Subject: color scanning problem References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB412@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3B959A65.A22999CF@mail.mcn.org> Norbert: correct the color afterward with some program like Adobe Photoshop. it's better than relying on scanners, especially if you have the origional right there. Bill "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > I recently plopped a couple of butterflies on a scanner to illustrate the > differences between two species and was intrigued to find that the ventral > surface of one butterfly which is gray, came out as brown on the scanned > image. Any suggestions on how this can be overcome, if possible ?? Get a > better scanner ?? fix the color with software afterwards ?? don't use a > scanner where color rendition is really important ?? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca >  > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >  For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > >  http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl >  ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Tue Sep 4 23:35:14 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:35:14 -0700 Subject: Bugs in drum References: <00fc01c135b6$89a69400$7c004e0c@terib> Message-ID: <3B959D71.FD855DF6@mail.mcn.org> --------------DA2CEA0648F4DF99591AC0AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrice: Suspend the drum in a metal barrel with a top. Pour in a quart of lacquer thinner, leave it in the sun for a few days. (I hope it's not painted) Bill > --------------DA2CEA0648F4DF99591AC0AF Content-Type: text/html; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Patrice:
Suspend the drum in a metal barrel with a top. Pour in a quart of lacquer thinner, leave it in the sun for a few days. (I hope it's not painted)
Bill
 
--------------DA2CEA0648F4DF99591AC0AF-- ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 00:29:18 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:29:18 -0400 Subject: September's FREE TTR issues Message-ID: <001201c135c3$54acf340$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> We had 5 responces to last month's offer of free PDF copies of select TTR issues. So we are going to make a couple more issues available this month. (Issues offered last month are no longer available by this method.) Just email me by reply to this post and I'll email the article(s) listed below to you. Check the size of the file and be sure you allow the time etc. to down load it. VOl. 2 # 1 by Dr Kurt Johnson. "A New Elfin Butterfly (Lycaenidae: Eumaeini) from Northern China with Comments on the Nomenclature of Palaearctic Elfins" (published 1 Jan. 2000) This may be especially of interest to those of you in Asia. This PDF file is only 655KB (half a megabyte). VOL. 2 # 7 by Laurence Crabtree and Ron Leuschner. "Records for the Utilization of Prunus as a Larval Foodplant by 71 Species of Lepidoptera in Northeast California." (published 7 December 2000) This is a significant paper that took over a decade to compile. It has color photos of several moth species. This file is only 259 KB. Ron Gatrelle http://www.tils-ttr.org PS For those who may not know, TTR stands for The Taxonomic Report. It is the main publication of The International Lepidoptera Survey (TILS). ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From ricardo at ans.com.au Wed Sep 5 01:58:07 2001 From: ricardo at ans.com.au (Vr. Richard Bejsak-Colloredo-Mansfeld) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:58:07 +1000 Subject: Old maps on net Message-ID: <000701c135cf$edf2cfa0$4a0484cb@ricardo> I have some problems to find place names - localities from the past. I have found some old maps from 1910 and I just make a scan and they are now available on my website www.coleoptera.org in
Zoogeography. I like to hear your comment... Keep care and be of good cheer. Regards (name) Vratislav Richard Eugene Maria John Baptist (surname) of Bejsak (Bayshark)-Colloredo-Mansfeld website: http://www.coleoptera.org listserver: coleoptera on www.egroup.com/group/coleoptera/info.html Coleoptera - Australia, Tenebrionidae of World (incl. Lagriinae, Alleculinae) University of Sydney The Wentworth Bldg., Box 62 NSW 2006 AUSTRALIA phone : +61 414 540 465 email: vratislav at bigfoot.com ricardo at ans.com.au (before Ricardo at compuserve.com and ricardo at login.cz ) Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money can not be eaten.' CREE INDIAN PROPHECY. Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Wed Sep 5 04:38:19 2001 From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:38:19 -0300 Subject: pholus storage Message-ID: <002d01c135e6$1dbc1460$04f3b18e@oehlke> On September 5, George wrote concerning Darapsa pholus pupa: > I went searching, and never found it. The sun was going down. But while on my > hands and knees, I had the pleasure of watching a female Darapsa pholus laying > eggs on my Viburnum carlesii. I snagged a couple leaves that she had daintily > touched her abdomen to, and through the month of August raised two larva on V. > carlesii and V. prunifolium. > > Both made it to the last instar, but only one has formed a pupa. This is my > first attempt. What do I do now? Put it in the Fridge? > George, There are pics and info about Darapsa pholus at http://www.members.home.com/wwsats1/indexsp.htm including pupa storage info. There is additional overwintering info at http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew/zpupae.htm Put it in cold storage in mid September as per instructions on websites and you should have a nice specimen next spring. Good luck! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010905/a2305793/attachment.html From sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com Wed Sep 5 03:48:46 2001 From: sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com (Pierre A Plauzoles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:48:46 -0700 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E8B@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <3B95D8DE.6B895251@bigfoot.com> Mark Walker wrote: > David Smith wrote: > > > Hello, > > What everyone seems to overlook in these debates is that > > someone owns > > the land that you are talking about and very reasonably has > > plans for it. If > > that person cannot use the land in the way that they want to then the > > government should reemburse him (or her) for their loss. That > > is the way > > things have historically worked (at least in the U. S.) and > > that is the only > > honest way to do it. If the government does not reemburse the > > owner then > > they are thieves. Why should one person or organisation bear > > the burden of > > preserving a species, subspecies, or local population of an > > organism? Don't > > get me wrong, I am in favor of habitat preservation but I don't think > > another should bear the burden for what I want done. > > Valid and pertinent. I contend that this was exactly the case with the > described Quino habitat in Murrieta. So Clay is correct - "we" screwed up > in not securing the habitat. It was obvious what the outcome would be, > given the extent of growth and expansion in the immediate area. There is another overlooked aspect to this whole debate. How many of us (in the general sense, not just entomologists) have a knowledge of entomology sufficient to assess a piece of land for its need for this that or the other action to be taken in the direction of preservation? I would be willing to bet that not even 1% of the general population has taken even a single semester of field ecology or any other field course in the natural sciences, either in high school or in college. Why then should it be any surprise that there is such ignorance of the needs of wildlife in general, let alone a particular species such as the Stephens Kangaroo Rat, the El Segundo Blue, or the Quino Checkerspot? All a developer looks at is what his (and his contractors') machinery can do with the land he is looking at and how much leaner his pocket book will be when the work is finished, not what it will do to what is unfortunate enough to reside on that land when he gets there to start work. Pierre A Plauzoles sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com Wed Sep 5 03:33:52 2001 From: sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com (Pierre A Plauzoles) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:33:52 -0700 Subject: Butterflies (3 spp.) and the F&WS References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E87@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <3B95D560.DC008D3C@bigfoot.com> Mark Walker wrote: > Neil Jones wrote: > > < some really interesting stuff on the life cycle of Euphydryas> > > and then provided > > extinction due to overcollecting> > > He also said, > > > > > The second reason why, I believe, the USFWS is worried about > > overcollection > > is THIS LIST. > > Over the years there have been people prepared to defend even > > the worst > > and craziest philatelic collectors. Conswequently it is > > hardly surprising that people > > are worried. > > There are just as many, if not more, people on this list who worry about an > entirely different evil. > > I find it increasingly difficult to respect laws that are supposed to be > protecting species, when they fail to accomplish their goal. When you > suggest that overcollecting (or human predation, or whatever else you want > to call it) might be the underlying cause for the elimination of a species > (or sub-species), you are seriously downplaying the role played by habitat > fragmentation and destruction. You are wrongly shifting the focus away from > this obvious problem, and onto the notorious butterfly collector. The > result is an intoxication of the public which lullabies them into thinking > that as long as the collectors are at bay, the beautiful butterflies are > safe. The reality is that 99% of the butterflies are safe anyway, and the > other 1% are doomed because their habitat requirements are no longer met - > be it due to human or environmental pressures. I don't disagree that there > are many cases of "endangered" lepidopteron colonies throughout even > unpopulated areas. I don't disagree that local populations under > significant threat should potentially be controlled. But please, let's > first secure the necessary habitat and give both the leps and the collectors > a chance. > > I'd like to think that El Segundo is an example of where listing has worked. > On the other hand, I don't have a lot of confidence that that property is > sheltered enough from real estate valuation, nor am I convinced that it's > large enough to allow for the various normal spatial fluctuations that you > yourself describe. I agree with both Neil and Mark -- to an extent. The one serious flaw I see is the percentages. It may well be true that only 1% of the lepidopteran population of the world is truly threatened, but I think that probably closer to 20%, possibly even 40 or 50% of the populations in some parts of the world, such as the US and the tropical rainforests is in some level of danger for one reason or another, especially from habitat loss by either destruction for real estate development (either for housing or for industrial use) or alteration by removal of water supply or conversion to agricultural use (I am here thinking of what happened to Owens Valley when Los Angeles started taking water from the Owens River, and of the deforestation of the tropics). As for the Fish and Wildlife Service, if the Passport Service and Immigration and Naturalization Service can establish a foothold in Paris' Charles de Gaulle Airport for American citizens returning home to clear the goods we buy overseas through Customs, why can't the FWS do likewise and have someone at least on an on-call basis to assist in clearing items over which they have jurisdiction? Have the Powers That Be in Washington found a way to predict before we leave what we will find on our research trips to Brazil or Zanzibar or Andorra (or wherever else) that we don't know about yet? If so, they should tell us so that we can do a better job filling out the forms they so dearly want done right. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Wed Sep 5 05:06:57 2001 From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:06:57 -0300 Subject: Eacles imperialis Message-ID: <004001c135ea$1d859e40$04f3b18e@oehlke> My father, Don Oehlke, in New Jersey is currently having great success with pupation of Eacles imperialis imperialis. Pics of and info about adults and larval stages are now posted at http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/lepslseimpimp.htm Included at the site is a picture of a gynandromorph imperialis taken in at one of our black lights in 1962. For pupation, he takes the mature larvae (reared in sleeves), which have left foliage, and places them indoors in covered buckets with several layers of paper towels on the bottom. Once the larvae become cmpletely still, he moves them to small individual plastic chambers (no paper towels) in a fishing tackle box. Larvae usually pupate within a few days. If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites. Thankyou! Bill Oehlke Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0 http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Phone: 902-838-3455 fax: 902-838-0866 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010905/09b3e851/attachment.html From 1_iron at msn.com Wed Sep 5 05:47:55 2001 From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:47:55 -0400 Subject: genera References: <01cb01c1357f$938d1520$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Message-ID: <006601c135ef$d876ba40$9a890a3f@1swch01> Listers: Haaalllpp!! Will someone please produce a simple, black-or-white, definition of "species?" Seems to me all else is as James states: artificial. Jim Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Gatrelle" To: "Leps-l" Cc: "James Adams" Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:24 PM Subject: Re: genera > James Adams wrote: > > Xi, > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? > > There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this > question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor > Day weekend), but I may have a different one. > > The answer to this question is simple. Differences of > interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying > idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is > concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all > higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by > humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, > etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case > of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. > Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other > evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no > importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of > some kind of ecological connection). > > So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. > > To which Jeffery Oliver replied. > > Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is > biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some > trait which may have lead to it's radiation. > > New stuff from Ron. > > In these short posts are some very important statments - which perhaps can > easily be missed. James first. > "A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* > constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness." > > And Jeff. > "...it is biologically informative..." > > There we have it. It is all about humans trying to understand, define and > communicate to each other the what, how and why of the natural world. In > our interest - Lepidoptera. Isn't more communication better than less? > More knowledge and understading? Is this only for a scientific elete - or > is it OK for all of us to "know"? > > Why have we come up with words like clade and grade, geography and > panbiogeography, Danaus and gilippus and strigosus and berenice and > thersippus and...? To communicate "our" understanding of the natural world. > We have discovered fire, the wheel, and even genes. We are suposed to have > gone beyond > "Me Tarzan, u Jane" > "butterfly on pretty thing". > > Jeff is absolutely correct - the terms inform. Subgenera? Subspecies? > Absolutamente! James is almost on the money - "Once species are > genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that they > once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of _that_ > [newly forming] lineage." The statment should be: Once a _sub_species is > genetically arrived into being, what happens to other subspecies of that > species (still connected _only_ because they can still reproduce viable X > subspecific offspring) are of no importance to the _evolution_ of the new > forming linage. > > Species do not become species. Subspecies become species. Not "in a way" > but in factual and intellectual truth, "our" terms of subfamily, subgenera, > and subspecies are the most _informative_ areas of study and communication. > No wonder folks just see Pearls and not tharos and coyta (heck selenis > would do). The new communication is toward ignorance not information. > Strigosus, berenice and gilippus are evolutionally far apart - gilippus is > only stuck in the following ( D. _g._ strigosus, D. _g._ berenice, D. _g._ > gilippus) to "tell us" "by us" they all came from the same parent (not > gilippus). We have no idea where each are GOING to. To apply "Queen" to all > three of these very different organisms in wrong because it is confusing > via dumbing down. Striated Queen has been used in may popular books for > years - so who scrapped it? > > Callophrys, Mitoura, Loranthomitoura are all modes of communication _but_ > based on some rational _published_ definition and explanation. Full circle > back to Xi's question. Why Mitoura? His question was _specifically_ > relative to it not being used in the Butterflies of Canada. The lack of > use there was pointed out by Xi per the authors ref to the Warren and > Robbins article. Which I in turn pointed out was only a tiny note about a > "presumed" hybrid with absolutely _no_ definition let alone explanation of > any generic conclusions whatsoever. The B. of Canada's basing their generic > usage or lack thereof is thus based on nothing. > > BUT, is not this all just, as James and many other often say, just a matter > of "...differences of interpretation and opinion."? A yes and an emphatic > _no_! For there to be an interpretation there must first be something to > interpret - data - scientific data. Where there are published papers there > can be, will be and should be interpretation but not _alteration_. One can > not read something into a paper that is not there. Re opinion. There is no > place for opinion without evidence in science period. Hypotheses and theory > are informed questions based on rational observations that point to a > _suspected_ fact. Well, the earth is flat looked like a good theory - till > someone went around it. Once something has been proved as fact NO ONE is > free to have an opinion contrary to it - except religious zealots and > idiots. > > Email - how unsuited to this. I'll quit. One other thing though. If all > these ranks etc are really just man made (professor so n so made) and there > is "no such thing as" like James said, _and_ if all our taxonomy and > systematics is just "interpretation and opinion" anyway ---- then why all > the fuss (from Dr. so n so or so-s ) about Peer Review??????? It is > either crap or science. And if science it has to have rules and absolutes > as well as theory. This can not always be communicated to the masses in its > most fine frog hair splitting elements - but it should be reflected as much > as possible. Thus, Mitoura and Striated Queen. > > Ron > > PS James and I agree "So there will *always be* disagreement on what > constitutes a > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs." I am > just saying let's have more Constructs not less (technical and popular), > and let's make sure new Constructs actually have a blue print published > someplace. James and I have discussed this in private too -- I don't sweat > the load any more than he does - I just come across on line like I do ;-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From danart20 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 5 06:07:12 2001 From: danart20 at hotmail.com (Dankultur) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:07:12 GMT Subject: Help in Noctuid larvae Message-ID: <3B9616EF.91C353C8@hotmail.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C44CFBEA7E44572C31EE8055 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody For two years I collect this Caterpillar and cannot fint it anywere in commercial books: Character: -------------------------------------------------------------- 3" long (7 Cm) Skin not hairy (very glabrous except the ordinary setae) Completely black but two interrupted orange lateral stipes and another thinner dorsal one ----------------------------------------------------------- As far as i looked at the setal map it's a Noctuid Thanks for answer Daniel danart20 at hotmail.com -- Un grand bonjours des Iles St pierre et Miquelon http://danart.free.fr/ --------------C44CFBEA7E44572C31EE8055 Content-Type: image/jpeg; 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I am aware that this is not a Lep, but in my regular surveys of butterfly nectar sources in my yard, I came across this beetle. After 20 years of residence in a suburban New JERSEY yard we are seeing large numbers of Chauliognathus pennsylvanicus (Pennsylvania Leather-wing beetles---common name from Audubon Society Field Guide). They are in the family Cantharidae. It is strange that I don't recall seeing this here in previous years and I wonder how widespread this outbreak is. They were first noted on August 18 when dozens of mating pairs were noted, mainly on Agastache plants. Still common now (Sept 5). Michael Gochfeld ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Wed Sep 5 08:18:01 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:18:01 -0400 Subject: genera Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C41@NTFS2> Please refer to Klots (1951), "Some Principles of Classification", page (approx.) 280 (near the rear of the book)., for a pretty good account. > -----Original Message----- > From: 1_iron [SMTP:1_iron at msn.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 5:48 AM > To: Ron Gatrelle; Leps-l > Cc: James Adams > Subject: Re: genera > > Listers: > > Haaalllpp!! Will someone please produce a simple, black-or-white, > definition > of "species?" Seems to me all else is as James states: artificial. > > Jim Taylor > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Gatrelle" > To: "Leps-l" > Cc: "James Adams" > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:24 PM > Subject: Re: genera > > > > James Adams wrote: > > > > Xi, > > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? > > > > There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this > > question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor > > Day weekend), but I may have a different one. > > > > The answer to this question is simple. Differences of > > interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying > > idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is > > concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all > > higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by > > humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, > > etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case > > of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. > > Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other > > evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no > > importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of > > some kind of ecological connection). > > > > So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a > > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. > > > > To which Jeffery Oliver replied. > > > > Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is > > biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some > > trait which may have lead to it's radiation. > > > > New stuff from Ron. > > > > In these short posts are some very important statments - which perhaps > can > > easily be missed. James first. > > "A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* > > constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness." > > > > And Jeff. > > "...it is biologically informative..." > > > > There we have it. It is all about humans trying to understand, define > and > > communicate to each other the what, how and why of the natural world. In > > our interest - Lepidoptera. Isn't more communication better than less? > > More knowledge and understading? Is this only for a scientific elete - > or > > is it OK for all of us to "know"? > > > > Why have we come up with words like clade and grade, geography and > > panbiogeography, Danaus and gilippus and strigosus and berenice and > > thersippus and...? To communicate "our" understanding of the natural > world. > > We have discovered fire, the wheel, and even genes. We are suposed to > have > > gone beyond > > "Me Tarzan, u Jane" > > "butterfly on pretty thing". > > > > Jeff is absolutely correct - the terms inform. Subgenera? Subspecies? > > Absolutamente! James is almost on the money - "Once species are > > genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that > they > > once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of _that_ > > [newly forming] lineage." The statment should be: Once a _sub_species > is > > genetically arrived into being, what happens to other subspecies of that > > species (still connected _only_ because they can still reproduce viable > X > > subspecific offspring) are of no importance to the _evolution_ of the > new > > forming linage. > > > > Species do not become species. Subspecies become species. Not "in a way" > > but in factual and intellectual truth, "our" terms of subfamily, > subgenera, > > and subspecies are the most _informative_ areas of study and > communication. > > No wonder folks just see Pearls and not tharos and coyta (heck selenis > > would do). The new communication is toward ignorance not information. > > Strigosus, berenice and gilippus are evolutionally far apart - gilippus > is > > only stuck in the following ( D. _g._ strigosus, D. _g._ berenice, D. > _g._ > > gilippus) to "tell us" "by us" they all came from the same parent (not > > gilippus). We have no idea where each are GOING to. To apply "Queen" to > all > > three of these very different organisms in wrong because it is confusing > > via dumbing down. Striated Queen has been used in may popular books for > > years - so who scrapped it? > > > > Callophrys, Mitoura, Loranthomitoura are all modes of communication > _but_ > > based on some rational _published_ definition and explanation. Full > circle > > back to Xi's question. Why Mitoura? His question was _specifically_ > > relative to it not being used in the Butterflies of Canada. The lack of > > use there was pointed out by Xi per the authors ref to the Warren and > > Robbins article. Which I in turn pointed out was only a tiny note about > a > > "presumed" hybrid with absolutely _no_ definition let alone explanation > of > > any generic conclusions whatsoever. The B. of Canada's basing their > generic > > usage or lack thereof is thus based on nothing. > > > > BUT, is not this all just, as James and many other often say, just a > matter > > of "...differences of interpretation and opinion."? A yes and an > emphatic > > _no_! For there to be an interpretation there must first be something > to > > interpret - data - scientific data. Where there are published papers > there > > can be, will be and should be interpretation but not _alteration_. One > can > > not read something into a paper that is not there. Re opinion. There is > no > > place for opinion without evidence in science period. Hypotheses and > theory > > are informed questions based on rational observations that point to a > > _suspected_ fact. Well, the earth is flat looked like a good theory - > till > > someone went around it. Once something has been proved as fact NO ONE is > > free to have an opinion contrary to it - except religious zealots and > > idiots. > > > > Email - how unsuited to this. I'll quit. One other thing though. If all > > these ranks etc are really just man made (professor so n so made) and > there > > is "no such thing as" like James said, _and_ if all our taxonomy and > > systematics is just "interpretation and opinion" anyway ---- then why > all > > the fuss (from Dr. so n so or so-s ) about Peer Review??????? It is > > either crap or science. And if science it has to have rules and > absolutes > > as well as theory. This can not always be communicated to the masses in > its > > most fine frog hair splitting elements - but it should be reflected as > much > > as possible. Thus, Mitoura and Striated Queen. > > > > Ron > > > > PS James and I agree "So there will *always be* disagreement on what > > constitutes a > > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs." I am > > just saying let's have more Constructs not less (technical and popular), > > and let's make sure new Constructs actually have a blue print published > > someplace. James and I have discussed this in private too -- I don't > sweat > > the load any more than he does - I just come across on line like I do > ;-) > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spm23 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 5 09:16:57 2001 From: spm23 at cornell.edu (Sean Patrick Mullen) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:16:57 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is inherently subjective because the process that generate these fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. I find it difficult to imagine a definition that would satisfy everyone. Speciation occurs over long geographic time scales, sometimes relatively quickly and other times relatively slowly. In either case, one population begins to diverge and is eventually recognized as two separate biological entities. Much of the debate over species concepts is driven by differences in opinion about when the "recognition" should occur. Is it enough to be able to distinguish among geographic variants of an organism? Is the evolution of reproductive isolation a more appropriate landmark on the road to speciation? Even assuming that you can personally come to believe in one species concept over another, you'll still have to deal with other peoples differing opinions and other organisms steadfast refusal to be so classified by your scheme of choice:). I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack of agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by life and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such amazing variety. Just my two cents. -Sean --- begin forwarded text Status: U From: "1_iron" <1_iron at msn.com> To: "Ron Gatrelle" , "Leps-l" Cc: "James Adams" Subject: Re: genera Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:47:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2001 09:47:19.0804 (UTC) FILETIME=[C1355BC0:01C135EF] Reply-To: 1_iron at msn.com Sender: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu Listers: Haaalllpp!! Will someone please produce a simple, black-or-white, definition of "species?" Seems to me all else is as James states: artificial. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 10:35:33 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:35:33 -0400 Subject: September's Free issue Message-ID: <009c01c13618$05c69560$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Upon getting up this "morning" ( I usually go to bed between 3 and 6 a.m and up at 9 to 11- last "night" it was 5 to 9) I found a flurry of requests for one or both of the free TTR issues posted yesterday. If there ever was a "tip of the iceberg" this is it. I'm talking about on line publishing. It is amazing to think that if a zillion requests came in for this over the next 500 years that the issues would still be "in stock". Occasionally someone will snicker at out paper product as it is on not too unusual of paper and stapled together. However, it is one of the world's most widely available scientific publications because of the internet. It is printed on high quality acid free paper, but our primary achievable media is our CDR for each volume at years end. TTR is a report - and our paper version is of that design. If we had a $100,000 printing budget we would still print on the same paper and in same format. But, back to the main subject. At the tap of a couple keys on a computer today publications can be sent or accessed - unlimited copies - and virtually no cost. WOW!!!! I want to recommend here again the Great White brand - Imaging and Photo paper if you print out pictures (including your TTR pdf file). This is by far the best all around paper for this purpose we have found. It is printable on both sides and I think renders better color etc then the expensive one side only glossy photo papers. It is a 37 lb paper and slightly "slick" which gives it a real rich feel. You can find it at any office supply store. (We use the highest quality 24 lb 96 white for our text pages. Several brands will do for this.) One can purchase our CDs on line at our web site http://www.tils-ttr.org If it were me I would just get the CD for $25 and print out and staple my own Volume at home :-) The CD has two versions of each issue - the pdf file which has compacted pictures - and a full size Word file. Print from the Word file if you can. But, be aware that your brand of printer will change the page breaks etc. and move things around some. What you see on your screen is dictated by your pinter's settings. Well, I didn't intend to get into all that. This was not a sales pitch. I was (am) just amazed when one thinks of all the opportunities and advantages of on line publications!!!!!!!!! Heck, let me make another pitch. If you want your taxonomically related research to be available to the world, published within two months of final review, usually no page charges, etc. - The Taxonomic Report is waiting. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Jeffrey.Oliver at Colorado.EDU Wed Sep 5 12:13:37 2001 From: Jeffrey.Oliver at Colorado.EDU (OLIVER JEFFREY CATLIN) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:13:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: genera In-Reply-To: <006601c135ef$d876ba40$9a890a3f@1swch01> Message-ID: Species are artificial. They are typological constructs created by a being (humans) with an undeniable need to have a name for everything. Of course, that won't prevent me from using species names to communicate with other folks... Jeff Oliver jeffrey.oliver at colorado.edu On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, 1_iron wrote: > Listers: > > Haaalllpp!! Will someone please produce a simple, black-or-white, definition > of "species?" Seems to me all else is as James states: artificial. > > Jim Taylor > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Gatrelle" > To: "Leps-l" > Cc: "James Adams" > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:24 PM > Subject: Re: genera > > > > James Adams wrote: > > > > Xi, > > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? > > > > There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this > > question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor > > Day weekend), but I may have a different one. > > > > The answer to this question is simple. Differences of > > interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying > > idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is > > concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all > > higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by > > humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, > > etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case > > of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. > > Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other > > evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no > > importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of > > some kind of ecological connection). > > > > So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a > > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. > > > > To which Jeffery Oliver replied. > > > > Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is > > biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some > > trait which may have lead to it's radiation. > > > > New stuff from Ron. > > > > In these short posts are some very important statments - which perhaps can > > easily be missed. James first. > > "A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* > > constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness." > > > > And Jeff. > > "...it is biologically informative..." > > > > There we have it. It is all about humans trying to understand, define and > > communicate to each other the what, how and why of the natural world. In > > our interest - Lepidoptera. Isn't more communication better than less? > > More knowledge and understading? Is this only for a scientific elete - or > > is it OK for all of us to "know"? > > > > Why have we come up with words like clade and grade, geography and > > panbiogeography, Danaus and gilippus and strigosus and berenice and > > thersippus and...? To communicate "our" understanding of the natural > world. > > We have discovered fire, the wheel, and even genes. We are suposed to have > > gone beyond > > "Me Tarzan, u Jane" > > "butterfly on pretty thing". > > > > Jeff is absolutely correct - the terms inform. Subgenera? Subspecies? > > Absolutamente! James is almost on the money - "Once species are > > genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that > they > > once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of _that_ > > [newly forming] lineage." The statment should be: Once a _sub_species is > > genetically arrived into being, what happens to other subspecies of that > > species (still connected _only_ because they can still reproduce viable X > > subspecific offspring) are of no importance to the _evolution_ of the new > > forming linage. > > > > Species do not become species. Subspecies become species. Not "in a way" > > but in factual and intellectual truth, "our" terms of subfamily, > subgenera, > > and subspecies are the most _informative_ areas of study and > communication. > > No wonder folks just see Pearls and not tharos and coyta (heck selenis > > would do). The new communication is toward ignorance not information. > > Strigosus, berenice and gilippus are evolutionally far apart - gilippus is > > only stuck in the following ( D. _g._ strigosus, D. _g._ berenice, D. _g._ > > gilippus) to "tell us" "by us" they all came from the same parent (not > > gilippus). We have no idea where each are GOING to. To apply "Queen" to > all > > three of these very different organisms in wrong because it is confusing > > via dumbing down. Striated Queen has been used in may popular books for > > years - so who scrapped it? > > > > Callophrys, Mitoura, Loranthomitoura are all modes of communication _but_ > > based on some rational _published_ definition and explanation. Full circle > > back to Xi's question. Why Mitoura? His question was _specifically_ > > relative to it not being used in the Butterflies of Canada. The lack of > > use there was pointed out by Xi per the authors ref to the Warren and > > Robbins article. Which I in turn pointed out was only a tiny note about a > > "presumed" hybrid with absolutely _no_ definition let alone explanation of > > any generic conclusions whatsoever. The B. of Canada's basing their > generic > > usage or lack thereof is thus based on nothing. > > > > BUT, is not this all just, as James and many other often say, just a > matter > > of "...differences of interpretation and opinion."? A yes and an > emphatic > > _no_! For there to be an interpretation there must first be something to > > interpret - data - scientific data. Where there are published papers there > > can be, will be and should be interpretation but not _alteration_. One can > > not read something into a paper that is not there. Re opinion. There is no > > place for opinion without evidence in science period. Hypotheses and > theory > > are informed questions based on rational observations that point to a > > _suspected_ fact. Well, the earth is flat looked like a good theory - > till > > someone went around it. Once something has been proved as fact NO ONE is > > free to have an opinion contrary to it - except religious zealots and > > idiots. > > > > Email - how unsuited to this. I'll quit. One other thing though. If all > > these ranks etc are really just man made (professor so n so made) and > there > > is "no such thing as" like James said, _and_ if all our taxonomy and > > systematics is just "interpretation and opinion" anyway ---- then why all > > the fuss (from Dr. so n so or so-s ) about Peer Review??????? It is > > either crap or science. And if science it has to have rules and absolutes > > as well as theory. This can not always be communicated to the masses in > its > > most fine frog hair splitting elements - but it should be reflected as > much > > as possible. Thus, Mitoura and Striated Queen. > > > > Ron > > > > PS James and I agree "So there will *always be* disagreement on what > > constitutes a > > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs." I am > > just saying let's have more Constructs not less (technical and popular), > > and let's make sure new Constructs actually have a blue print published > > someplace. James and I have discussed this in private too -- I don't > sweat > > the load any more than he does - I just come across on line like I do ;-) > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Wed Sep 5 12:23:38 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:23:38 -0700 Subject: genera Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB41B@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> As pointed out by Sean Mullen, there are plenty of definitions, some simple some not. Very little is black and white, despite the efforts of some people to make it so. Some selected definitions of species concepts are available at http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~kll1/speciesdef.html Also there are a number of links on this fascinating topic at http://www.biosis.org/zrdocs/zoolinfo/syst_tax.htm -----Original Message----- From: 1_iron [mailto:1_iron at msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:48 AM To: Ron Gatrelle; Leps-l Cc: James Adams Subject: Re: genera Listers: Haaalllpp!! Will someone please produce a simple, black-or-white, definition of "species?" Seems to me all else is as James states: artificial. Jim Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Gatrelle" To: "Leps-l" Cc: "James Adams" Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:24 PM Subject: Re: genera > James Adams wrote: > > Xi, > > Perhaps you've explained this already in a previous post and I missed > > it, but why is Mitoura a genus? > > There have undoubtedly been other responses already to this > question that I simply haven't read yet (catching up after a Labor > Day weekend), but I may have a different one. > > The answer to this question is simple. Differences of > interpretation and opinion. But there is a more basic underlying > idea that must be understood. As far as the biological world is > concerned, there *is no such thing* as a genus. A genus, and all > higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* constructs used by > humans to represent some level of relatedness. Genera, families, > etc. cannot evolve (with the rare hybridization being the only case > of some fuzziness) -- only species and populations of species. > Once species are genetically isolated, what happens to other > evolutionary lineages that they once were connected to are of no > importance to the evolution of that lineage (with the exception of > some kind of ecological connection). > > So there will *always be* disagreement on what constitutes a > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs. > > To which Jeffery Oliver replied. > > Although if a genus defines a recipocally monophyletic linneage, it is > biologically informative, especially if that clade is defined by some > trait which may have lead to it's radiation. > > New stuff from Ron. > > In these short posts are some very important statments - which perhaps can > easily be missed. James first. > "A genus, and all higher taxonomic catergories are *artificial* > constructs used by humans to represent some level of relatedness." > > And Jeff. > "...it is biologically informative..." > > There we have it. It is all about humans trying to understand, define and > communicate to each other the what, how and why of the natural world. In > our interest - Lepidoptera. Isn't more communication better than less? > More knowledge and understading? Is this only for a scientific elete - or > is it OK for all of us to "know"? > > Why have we come up with words like clade and grade, geography and > panbiogeography, Danaus and gilippus and strigosus and berenice and > thersippus and...? To communicate "our" understanding of the natural world. > We have discovered fire, the wheel, and even genes. We are suposed to have > gone beyond > "Me Tarzan, u Jane" > "butterfly on pretty thing". > > Jeff is absolutely correct - the terms inform. Subgenera? Subspecies? > Absolutamente! James is almost on the money - "Once species are > genetically isolated, what happens to other evolutionary lineages that they > once were connected to are of no importance to the evolution of _that_ > [newly forming] lineage." The statment should be: Once a _sub_species is > genetically arrived into being, what happens to other subspecies of that > species (still connected _only_ because they can still reproduce viable X > subspecific offspring) are of no importance to the _evolution_ of the new > forming linage. > > Species do not become species. Subspecies become species. Not "in a way" > but in factual and intellectual truth, "our" terms of subfamily, subgenera, > and subspecies are the most _informative_ areas of study and communication. > No wonder folks just see Pearls and not tharos and coyta (heck selenis > would do). The new communication is toward ignorance not information. > Strigosus, berenice and gilippus are evolutionally far apart - gilippus is > only stuck in the following ( D. _g._ strigosus, D. _g._ berenice, D. _g._ > gilippus) to "tell us" "by us" they all came from the same parent (not > gilippus). We have no idea where each are GOING to. To apply "Queen" to all > three of these very different organisms in wrong because it is confusing > via dumbing down. Striated Queen has been used in may popular books for > years - so who scrapped it? > > Callophrys, Mitoura, Loranthomitoura are all modes of communication _but_ > based on some rational _published_ definition and explanation. Full circle > back to Xi's question. Why Mitoura? His question was _specifically_ > relative to it not being used in the Butterflies of Canada. The lack of > use there was pointed out by Xi per the authors ref to the Warren and > Robbins article. Which I in turn pointed out was only a tiny note about a > "presumed" hybrid with absolutely _no_ definition let alone explanation of > any generic conclusions whatsoever. The B. of Canada's basing their generic > usage or lack thereof is thus based on nothing. > > BUT, is not this all just, as James and many other often say, just a matter > of "...differences of interpretation and opinion."? A yes and an emphatic > _no_! For there to be an interpretation there must first be something to > interpret - data - scientific data. Where there are published papers there > can be, will be and should be interpretation but not _alteration_. One can > not read something into a paper that is not there. Re opinion. There is no > place for opinion without evidence in science period. Hypotheses and theory > are informed questions based on rational observations that point to a > _suspected_ fact. Well, the earth is flat looked like a good theory - till > someone went around it. Once something has been proved as fact NO ONE is > free to have an opinion contrary to it - except religious zealots and > idiots. > > Email - how unsuited to this. I'll quit. One other thing though. If all > these ranks etc are really just man made (professor so n so made) and there > is "no such thing as" like James said, _and_ if all our taxonomy and > systematics is just "interpretation and opinion" anyway ---- then why all > the fuss (from Dr. so n so or so-s ) about Peer Review??????? It is > either crap or science. And if science it has to have rules and absolutes > as well as theory. This can not always be communicated to the masses in its > most fine frog hair splitting elements - but it should be reflected as much > as possible. Thus, Mitoura and Striated Queen. > > Ron > > PS James and I agree "So there will *always be* disagreement on what > constitutes a > genus, family, etc. because they are subjective human constructs." I am > just saying let's have more Constructs not less (technical and popular), > and let's make sure new Constructs actually have a blue print published > someplace. James and I have discussed this in private too -- I don't sweat > the load any more than he does - I just come across on line like I do ;-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 13:00:21 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:00:21 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: Message-ID: <00ad01c1362c$403a2d60$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> I left the senders name off this and mailed to "group" to give body language to this post that I am not attacking or even addressing a person. Can people have intelligent debate without everything having to be taken "personally." It was written: > Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, > black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is > inherently subjective because the process that generate these > fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. > This is not true. As Alex pointed out there is some pretty good info on this in the old Peterson Klots' field guide (and lots of other places). Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? If so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - even though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. 2) Are there, and do we know - that Insects and Fish are very different? If so, then the rank of Phylum is clearly defined to a 4 year old - even though they don't know the terms, Arthropoda/Chordata. 3) Is there, and do we know - the difference between Butterflies and Lobsters? If so, the rank of Class is clearly defined to a 5 year old - even though they do not know the terms, Hexapoda/Crustacea. 4) Are there, and do we know - that butterflies/moths and beetles are different? If so, the rank of Order is clearly defined to a 6 year old - even though they do not know the terms, Lepidoptera/Coleoptera. 5) How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. 6) And among the butterflies, does a 8 year old now notice skippers are different from other butterflies? If so, then the taxonomic rank of Superfamily is acknowledged even though the terms Papilionoidea/Hesperioidea are yet unknown to them. 7) Does the budding lepidopterist of 9 clearly see that hairstreaks and swallowtails are different - even their larva? Ditto to the rank of Family. 8) If the youngster lived in the 1960's by 10 he would observe and also know the terms and parameters of Subfamily, Tribe, Genus and definitely species. His parents would have given him/her Klots and Holland or Comstock for their birthday and they would be well aware of it all. 9) But back when they were 2 they would have known what species are. Cow says moooo, pig says oink and dog says woof woof. They may not know that Mama's name is Hazeleen but they know she is not the dog or cat. 10) Unfortunately by the time they hit 35 and get a PhD they will have unlearned all this as they have now found that as extensions from the primeval ooze we are all the same 'thing" and nothing has really even gone extinct it has all just morphed into something(s) else. We have now "intellectualized" and "philosophized" the obvious to the point of asking silly questions like how do we know what a species is. Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (replicate) themselves (their population) over and over. See any child's encyclopedia and you will find this answer. Or, just do what Alex said and check Klots page 296. Since most today don't have this I'll quote in part. "...In the first place a species is a population, composed of individuals. These have certain inheritable, distinctive characters in common, which set them apart from all other populations. They usually vary somewhat in minor expressions of these and other characters, but the variation is within definite limits. The species as a whole must reproduce itself, through the reproductive activities of the individuals. This must be done successfully enough for the survival of the species, which otherwise will become extinct. The reproductive power of the species must balance the destructive powers of its enemies and of other environmental forces. The species must, moreover, reproduce itself not only successfully but naturally. We are not concerned with man-made "hybrids." "There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, black-or-white, definition of species." Really. Lets see... Yup, the paper is still white and the ink black in my _old_ Klots guide. Looks clear, simple and in black and white- and 1951 qualifies as "has been". Of course, many of our new genetically engineered academia just see Klots (and the rest of us old times) as plain has beens. SNIP > I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack of > agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding > experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by life > and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such amazing > variety. > Just my two cents. > Is this the 60's? Let's put flowers in our hair and smoke dope. Why pay thousands to go to college? To learn to have no absolutes? No clear definitions? To learn to be one with the cosmos and just lay back and enjoy it all? Yes, there is a marvelous diversity, and a great evolutionary complexity too. I do enjoy it. And I enjoy it more and more as I learn and understand it more and more. If the idiots making parking lots out of habitat could see that trees are oak AND pine, then kinds of oak and pine, Quercus and .... Perhaps they would enjoy it more than the mall. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Wed Sep 5 13:16:45 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:16:45 -0400 Subject: My Darapsa pholus pupa Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279E9A@hqmail.gensym.com> George wrote: > > On July 21 this year, I was sitting on my northern Rhode > Island deck puffing on > a cuban that was snuck back from Paris by my loving sister. > For some stupid > reason, I set it down on the railing, and next thing I new it > was over the > edge, lost in the vinca. > > I went searching, and never found it. The sun was going > down. But while on my > hands and knees, I had the pleasure of watching a female > Darapsa pholus laying > eggs on my Viburnum carlesii. I snagged a couple leaves that > she had daintily > touched her abdomen to, and through the month of August > raised two larva on V. > carlesii and V. prunifolium. > > Both made it to the last instar, but only one has formed a > pupa. This is my > first attempt. What do I do now? Put it in the Fridge? Who cares what you do now, all I know is that this is true poetry! I highly recommend that you get this published! Thanks, Mark Walker > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 13:23:24 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:23:24 -0400 Subject: genera References: Message-ID: <00bf01c1362f$7893cec0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "OLIVER JEFFREY CATLIN" Subject: Re: genera > Species are artificial. They are typological constructs created by a > being (humans) with an undeniable need to have a name for everything. > > Of course, that won't prevent me from using species names to communicate > with other folks... > > Jeff Oliver > jeffrey.oliver at colorado.edu > Now I switch to the other side of the debate table. While the above may seem totally screwy to us average farm people - Jeffery knows what most of us don't. The interconnectivity of living things is just that VERY connected. (Of course as a Bible believer this plays right to my way of thinking - same designer working in all.) I will now quote from Klots again. "The question 'what is a species?' cannot be answered fully without extremely lengthy discussion. Let us, however, try to work out a general answer for our purposes." (You know someone likes to debate when they argue with themselves.) What Klots said is true (both posts). This can't be done with email :-0 is what he says here. The bottom line to me is this. In understanding the connectivity one has to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water - get so intellectual we loose site of common since. (I know I can't spell either.) Cheers Ronnie ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Wed Sep 5 13:23:26 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:23:26 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C53@NTFS2> Ron, Thanks for quoting Klots directly; I would have in my earlier post today but my copy of the book is at home and I am now at work. It seems unfortunate that we have to harken constantly back to Klots but reality is reality. There were many things that Klots pointed out and discussed that we see very little (or nothing) about today. Another is his discussion on the acid bogs in the Canadian Life Zone, and how they are "extensions of Arctic and Hudsonian Zone plants and animals into the low-lying Canadian areas..." Nowadays, too much mention is made of Bolorias, for examples, occurring in "bogs" without any discussion as to how and why. This is an example of one of the mysteries that is being lost. Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:00 PM > To: Leps-l > Subject: Re: Species definitions! > > > I left the senders name off this and mailed to "group" to give body > language to this post that I am not attacking or even addressing a person. > Can people have intelligent debate without everything having to be taken > "personally." > > It was written: > > Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, > > black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is > > inherently subjective because the process that generate these > > fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. > > > > This is not true. As Alex pointed out there is some pretty good info on > this in the old Peterson Klots' field guide (and lots of other places). > Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. > 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? If > so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - even > though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. > 2) Are there, and do we know - that Insects and Fish are very different? > If so, then the rank of Phylum is clearly defined to a 4 year old - even > though they don't know the terms, Arthropoda/Chordata. > 3) Is there, and do we know - the difference between Butterflies and > Lobsters? If so, the rank of Class is clearly defined to a 5 year old - > even though they do not know the terms, Hexapoda/Crustacea. > 4) Are there, and do we know - that butterflies/moths and beetles are > different? If so, the rank of Order is clearly defined to a 6 year old - > even though they do not know the terms, Lepidoptera/Coleoptera. > 5) How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. > 6) And among the butterflies, does a 8 year old now notice skippers are > different from other butterflies? If so, then the taxonomic rank of > Superfamily is acknowledged even though the terms > Papilionoidea/Hesperioidea are yet unknown to them. > 7) Does the budding lepidopterist of 9 clearly see that hairstreaks and > swallowtails are different - even their larva? Ditto to the rank of > Family. > 8) If the youngster lived in the 1960's by 10 he would observe and also > know the terms and parameters of Subfamily, Tribe, Genus and definitely > species. His parents would have given him/her Klots and Holland or > Comstock for their birthday and they would be well aware of it all. > 9) But back when they were 2 they would have known what species are. Cow > says moooo, pig says oink and dog says woof woof. They may not know that > Mama's name is Hazeleen but they know she is not the dog or cat. > 10) Unfortunately by the time they hit 35 and get a PhD they will have > unlearned all this as they have now found that as extensions from the > primeval ooze we are all the same 'thing" and nothing has really even gone > extinct it has all just morphed into something(s) else. We have now > "intellectualized" and "philosophized" the obvious to the point of asking > silly questions like how do we know what a species is. > > Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (replicate) > themselves (their population) over and over. See any child's encyclopedia > and you will find this answer. Or, just do what Alex said and check Klots > page 296. Since most today don't have this I'll quote in part. "...In the > first place a species is a population, composed of individuals. These have > certain inheritable, distinctive characters in common, which set them > apart > from all other populations. They usually vary somewhat in minor > expressions > of these and other characters, but the variation is within definite > limits. > The species as a whole must reproduce itself, through the reproductive > activities of the individuals. This must be done successfully enough for > the survival of the species, which otherwise will become extinct. The > reproductive power of the species must balance the destructive powers of > its enemies and of other environmental forces. The species must, moreover, > reproduce itself not only successfully but naturally. We are not concerned > with man-made "hybrids." > > "There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, black-or-white, > definition of species." Really. Lets see... Yup, the paper is still > white > and the ink black in my _old_ Klots guide. Looks clear, simple and in > black and white- and 1951 qualifies as "has been". Of course, many of our > new genetically engineered academia just see Klots (and the rest of us old > times) as plain has beens. > > SNIP > > > I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack of > > agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding > > experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by life > > and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such amazing > > variety. > > Just my two cents. > > > > Is this the 60's? Let's put flowers in our hair and smoke dope. Why pay > thousands to go to college? To learn to have no absolutes? No clear > definitions? To learn to be one with the cosmos and just lay back and > enjoy > it all? Yes, there is a marvelous diversity, and a great evolutionary > complexity too. I do enjoy it. And I enjoy it more and more as I learn and > understand it more and more. If the idiots making parking lots out of > habitat could see that trees are oak AND pine, then kinds of oak and pine, > Quercus and .... Perhaps they would enjoy it more than the mall. > > Ron Gatrelle > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Wed Sep 5 13:28:51 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:28:51 -0700 Subject: Klots and species --- Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB41F@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> I do have one bone to pick with what Klots published. It is the notion that "a species is a population". If one defines them as the same then the statement is acceptable. But my view is that a population and a species are not at all the same 'thing'. Here is my understanding: a population is a number of organisms that exchange genes on a regular basis. The total of all populations with defined similarities are treated as a species from a taxonomic perspective. Example: a bunch of Cabbage Whites live near San Francisco on the west coast and another bunch lives near New York on the east coast of North America. I view them as the same species but certainly not the same population. Neither populations nor species are static in space and time. I accept the notion that evolution does happen so one contributor to gray vs black/white is that the differences and similarities are not fixed and it becomes unclear at what point in time (level of difference/similarity) to call 'same species' or 'different species'. A classic line on this topic is "A species is what a good taxonomist says it is". Of course this begs the question of how to define a good vs a bad taxonomist. Is there a good field guide that I can use to recognize a good taxonomist ?? Maybe eye color is a good field mark :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Wed Sep 5 13:28:45 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:28:45 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C55@NTFS2> I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep mysteries have been replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs and 15 Common Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, since when has it become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? > -----Original Message----- > From: Grkovich, Alex > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:23 PM > To: 'Ron Gatrelle'; Leps-l > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > Ron, > > Thanks for quoting Klots directly; I would have in my earlier post today > but my copy of the book is at home and I am now at work. It seems > unfortunate that we have to harken constantly back to Klots but reality is > reality. > > There were many things that Klots pointed out and discussed that we see > very little (or nothing) about today. Another is his discussion on the > acid bogs in the Canadian Life Zone, and how they are "extensions of > Arctic and Hudsonian Zone plants and animals into the low-lying Canadian > areas..." Nowadays, too much mention is made of Bolorias, for examples, > occurring in "bogs" without any discussion as to how and why. This is an > example of one of the mysteries that is being lost. > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:00 PM > To: Leps-l > Subject: Re: Species definitions! > > > I left the senders name off this and mailed to "group" to give body > language to this post that I am not attacking or even addressing a > person. > Can people have intelligent debate without everything having to be > taken > "personally." > > It was written: > > Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, > simple, > > black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is > > inherently subjective because the process that generate these > > fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. > > > > This is not true. As Alex pointed out there is some pretty good > info on > this in the old Peterson Klots' field guide (and lots of other > places). > Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. > 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are > different? If > so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - > even > though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. > 2) Are there, and do we know - that Insects and Fish are very > different? > If so, then the rank of Phylum is clearly defined to a 4 year old - > even > though they don't know the terms, Arthropoda/Chordata. > 3) Is there, and do we know - the difference between Butterflies and > Lobsters? If so, the rank of Class is clearly defined to a 5 year > old - > even though they do not know the terms, Hexapoda/Crustacea. > 4) Are there, and do we know - that butterflies/moths and beetles > are > different? If so, the rank of Order is clearly defined to a 6 year > old - > even though they do not know the terms, Lepidoptera/Coleoptera. > 5) How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her > even > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. > 6) And among the butterflies, does a 8 year old now notice skippers > are > different from other butterflies? If so, then the taxonomic rank of > Superfamily is acknowledged even though the terms > Papilionoidea/Hesperioidea are yet unknown to them. > 7) Does the budding lepidopterist of 9 clearly see that hairstreaks > and > swallowtails are different - even their larva? Ditto to the rank of > Family. > 8) If the youngster lived in the 1960's by 10 he would observe and > also > know the terms and parameters of Subfamily, Tribe, Genus and > definitely > species. His parents would have given him/her Klots and Holland or > Comstock for their birthday and they would be well aware of it all. > 9) But back when they were 2 they would have known what species are. > Cow > says moooo, pig says oink and dog says woof woof. They may not know > that > Mama's name is Hazeleen but they know she is not the dog or cat. > 10) Unfortunately by the time they hit 35 and get a PhD they will > have > unlearned all this as they have now found that as extensions from > the > primeval ooze we are all the same 'thing" and nothing has really > even gone > extinct it has all just morphed into something(s) else. We have now > "intellectualized" and "philosophized" the obvious to the point of > asking > silly questions like how do we know what a species is. > > Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce > (replicate) > themselves (their population) over and over. See any child's > encyclopedia > and you will find this answer. Or, just do what Alex said and check > Klots > page 296. Since most today don't have this I'll quote in part. > "...In the > first place a species is a population, composed of individuals. > These have > certain inheritable, distinctive characters in common, which set > them apart > from all other populations. They usually vary somewhat in minor > expressions > of these and other characters, but the variation is within definite > limits. > The species as a whole must reproduce itself, through the > reproductive > activities of the individuals. This must be done successfully > enough for > the survival of the species, which otherwise will become extinct. > The > reproductive power of the species must balance the destructive > powers of > its enemies and of other environmental forces. The species must, > moreover, > reproduce itself not only successfully but naturally. We are not > concerned > with man-made "hybrids." > > "There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, > black-or-white, > definition of species." Really. Lets see... Yup, the paper is > still white > and the ink black in my _old_ Klots guide. Looks clear, simple and > in > black and white- and 1951 qualifies as "has been". Of course, many > of our > new genetically engineered academia just see Klots (and the rest of > us old > times) as plain has beens. > > SNIP > > > I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack > of > > agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding > > experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by > life > > and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such > amazing > > variety. > > Just my two cents. > > > > Is this the 60's? Let's put flowers in our hair and smoke dope. Why > pay > thousands to go to college? To learn to have no absolutes? No clear > definitions? To learn to be one with the cosmos and just lay back > and enjoy > it all? Yes, there is a marvelous diversity, and a great > evolutionary > complexity too. I do enjoy it. And I enjoy it more and more as I > learn and > understand it more and more. If the idiots making parking lots out > of > habitat could see that trees are oak AND pine, then kinds of oak and > pine, > Quercus and .... Perhaps they would enjoy it more than the mall. > > Ron Gatrelle > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From carol.lemmon at po.state.ct.us Wed Sep 5 13:49:12 2001 From: carol.lemmon at po.state.ct.us (Carol Lemmon) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:49:12 -0400 Subject: bugs eating my drum PLEASE HELP References: <3B942BF6.47F3F9F1@sympatico.ca> <20010904195632.01645.00002571@mb-cc.aol.com> <83DA54E2.3494@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <009a01c13633$12a63900$7ee3f79f@q8e2s8> If you take an item at room temperature and toss it in a freezer for 72 hours.....should take care of any critters. I don't know the size of your drum, but perhaps someone you know has a chest freezer. Otherwize you might enclose it in plastic with a couple of those shell pest strips inside for a week or two. Carol Lemmon ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Cherubini To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1903 8:22 PM Subject: Re: bugs eating my drum PLEASE HELP > JJCardinal wrote: > > > I had this happen with imported, wooden statuary. When I called the local FDA > > they said to burn the items immediately. They were concerned with infestation > > of a non-native species. Being I had quite a shipment of these items I was > > required to acquire a burn permit. These permits are given out first > > come-first served. I was allowed to burn them the afternoon I called. > > > > They could be very serious pests. > > Not likely a unique or serious pest. It's very likely one of the 15 common > stored product insect pests (mainly beetles) that have near world wide distributions. > > Some flour mills (e.g. General Mills) heat up their plants to 130-140 degrees > with heaters to kill off stored product insect pest infestations in food processing > machinery. That's why I suggested putting the drum inside a hot car in the sun > for a day. > > Paul Cherubini, Placerville, Calif. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 14:10:05 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:10:05 -0400 Subject: Klots and species --- References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB41F@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <010601c13635$fdecb680$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" Subject: Klots and species --- > I do have one bone to pick with what Klots published. It is the notion that > "a species is a population". If one defines them as the same then the > statement is acceptable. But my view is that a population and a species are > not at all the same 'thing'. Well, that was my thought exactly when typing in the statement. I think it is inevitable the as we get more and more curious about the stuff in our back yard - that we see the local population is "different" from another local population. For the brave, we jump in and at times see a definable evolutionary line and place the populations on that side of the line in one subspecies and the other side in another. Idle curiosity gone wild? The importance will be how this reads far into the future. Do we need to give names to all these? Yes. But only as a means of communication toward the future - not some ego of I got my name on something. Some folks have questioned a couple things I have described subspecifically. I really don't care if they all get shot down or some even turn out to be species (which it looks like one is). This is just communication to me - as I know it is to Norbert. But, but, but. Norbert and I are both big on going back into the lit to make sure the communication is accurate - and into the current lit to make sure they checked it out before they wrote. If we are going to communicate on X level then research it and do it as accurately as possible. Ron I'm going to try and shut up for a while - at least till tonight. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Wed Sep 5 14:26:19 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:26:19 -0700 Subject: Klots and species --- Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB423@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Yes, and to those that like to whine and complain about taxa with names that have in their opinion "minor" differences I would offer the following two observations and then I too will hopefully clam up for the day :-) One: species are defined by who breeds with who, the animals decide, the opinion of a taxonomist who thinks the difference is minor is really irrelevant. Two: I am reminded of the line that I stole from someplace "If you do not know the name of a thing, your knowledge of it perishes" Of course that is not a problem when there is no knowledge to perish :-) -----Original Message----- From: Ron Gatrelle [mailto:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:10 AM To: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX; Leps-l Subject: Re: Klots and species --- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" Subject: Klots and species --- > I do have one bone to pick with what Klots published. It is the notion that > "a species is a population". If one defines them as the same then the > statement is acceptable. But my view is that a population and a species are > not at all the same 'thing'. Well, that was my thought exactly when typing in the statement. I think it is inevitable the as we get more and more curious about the stuff in our back yard - that we see the local population is "different" from another local population. For the brave, we jump in and at times see a definable evolutionary line and place the populations on that side of the line in one subspecies and the other side in another. Idle curiosity gone wild? The importance will be how this reads far into the future. Do we need to give names to all these? Yes. But only as a means of communication toward the future - not some ego of I got my name on something. Some folks have questioned a couple things I have described subspecifically. I really don't care if they all get shot down or some even turn out to be species (which it looks like one is). This is just communication to me - as I know it is to Norbert. But, but, but. Norbert and I are both big on going back into the lit to make sure the communication is accurate - and into the current lit to make sure they checked it out before they wrote. If we are going to communicate on X level then research it and do it as accurately as possible. Ron I'm going to try and shut up for a while - at least till tonight. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Wed Sep 5 14:33:31 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:33:31 -0400 Subject: Klots and species --- Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C58@NTFS2> But "a population" may refer to the population of my neighborhood, or of the city, or of the county, or of the state (or province - I grew up in Canada), or of the country. The "population" of the nation is, for example, made up numerous "populations" on the local level, i.e. all individuals ultimately are Americans (in the USA) or Canadians (in Canada). The same way, a population of Boloria eunomia dawsonii may refer to the single colony north of Errol, New Hampshire, or to the single colony north of St. Ignace, Michigan, or ultimately to all of the colonies of eastern North America, which collectively, comprise the "population" of the subspecies. I have read this particular statement by Klots many times over the years, and have always understood it as such. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:10 PM > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; Leps-l > Subject: Re: Klots and species --- > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" > Subject: Klots and species --- > > > > I do have one bone to pick with what Klots published. It is the notion > that > > "a species is a population". If one defines them as the same then the > > statement is acceptable. But my view is that a population and a species > are > > not at all the same 'thing'. > > Well, that was my thought exactly when typing in the statement. I think it > is inevitable the as we get more and more curious about the stuff in our > back yard - that we see the local population is "different" from another > local population. For the brave, we jump in and at times see a definable > evolutionary line and place the populations on that side of the line in > one > subspecies and the other side in another. Idle curiosity gone wild? > > The importance will be how this reads far into the future. Do we need to > give names to all these? Yes. But only as a means of communication toward > the future - not some ego of I got my name on something. Some folks have > questioned a couple things I have described subspecifically. I really > don't > care if they all get shot down or some even turn out to be species (which > it looks like one is). This is just communication to me - as I know it is > to Norbert. But, but, but. Norbert and I are both big on going back into > the lit to make sure the communication is accurate - and into the current > lit to make sure they checked it out before they wrote. If we are going to > communicate on X level then research it and do it as accurately as > possible. > Ron > > I'm going to try and shut up for a while - at least till tonight. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Wed Sep 5 14:54:59 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:54:59 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EA2@hqmail.gensym.com> Ron wrote: > > This is not true. As Alex pointed out there is some pretty > good info on > this in the old Peterson Klots' field guide (and lots of > other places). > Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. > 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are > different? If > so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - even > though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. > 2) Are there, and do we know - that Insects and Fish are > very different? > If so, then the rank of Phylum is clearly defined to a 4 year > old - even > though they don't know the terms, Arthropoda/Chordata. > 3) Is there, and do we know - the difference between Butterflies and > Lobsters? If so, the rank of Class is clearly defined to a 5 > year old - > even though they do not know the terms, Hexapoda/Crustacea. > 4) Are there, and do we know - that butterflies/moths and beetles are > different? If so, the rank of Order is clearly defined to a > 6 year old - > even though they do not know the terms, Lepidoptera/Coleoptera. > 5) How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. > 6) And among the butterflies, does a 8 year old now notice > skippers are > different from other butterflies? If so, then the taxonomic rank of > Superfamily is acknowledged even though the terms > Papilionoidea/Hesperioidea are yet unknown to them. > 7) Does the budding lepidopterist of 9 clearly see that > hairstreaks and > swallowtails are different - even their larva? Ditto to the rank of > Family. > 8) If the youngster lived in the 1960's by 10 he would > observe and also > know the terms and parameters of Subfamily, Tribe, Genus and > definitely > species. His parents would have given him/her Klots and Holland or > Comstock for their birthday and they would be well aware of it all. > 9) But back when they were 2 they would have known what > species are. Cow > says moooo, pig says oink and dog says woof woof. They may > not know that > Mama's name is Hazeleen but they know she is not the dog or cat. > 10) Unfortunately by the time they hit 35 and get a PhD they will have > unlearned all this as they have now found that as extensions from the > primeval ooze we are all the same 'thing" and nothing has > really even gone > extinct it has all just morphed into something(s) else. We have now > "intellectualized" and "philosophized" the obvious to the > point of asking > silly questions like how do we know what a species is. Amen, brother. I love the description of progression of awareness in a child. So very (and personally) true. Of course, I did wonder myself once or twice whether you hadn't been smoking some hashish yourself when writing it! Shalom, Mark Walker. > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spm23 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 5 15:07:27 2001 From: spm23 at cornell.edu (Sean Patrick Mullen) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:07:27 -0400 Subject: species definitions! Message-ID: Hey listers, I wrote the original note that Ron so recently retorted to. I appreciate his effort to make clear that his remarks were not a personal attack. Fortunately, I love to hear other opinions and I have a no fear of public embarrassment...I guess my experience in high school taught me something after all:). Actually, Ron is sensitive to an issue that I've run across repeatedly with email..tone! You really have a difficult time inferring what tone an author is taking and this can frequently lead to problems. Now back to the issue at hand. I suppose first I should apologize. My first inclination when I read Jim Taylor's request for a clear cut species definition was to simply delete the message. Unfortunately, I never really read past his one sentence request. Perhaps he was only asking of a species concept that we could agree upon for Lepidoptera? My mistake. I decide to post my rather casual reply to Jim for two reasons: 1) to start a debate and 2) to suggest that while there are undoubted benefits to thinking deeply about species concepts, it can be easy to get lost in the semantical details of the various definitions rather than appreciate the fact that most of us simply use a more functional concept based on simple, and subjective, personal recognition. No, if you care to read further I will address Ron's specific critiques :). It was written: > Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, > black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is > inherently subjective because the process that generate these > fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. > This is not true. Here, I take it that Ron feels my statement about there never being a clear definition of species is untrue, rather than disagreeing with the idea that speciation is a continuous process from undifferentiated to discrete. He's right, of course. There have been many clearly presented definitions of species. None of them works for all groups of organisms and there is no general agreement across life's diversity about the equivalence of a species of ant versus a species of bat but we'll let that go. If you're restricting you definition to the order Lepidoptera, then maybe you have a chance of agreement but I doubt it. As for the below points about Kingdom, Phylum, etc. Well, yes, clearly you can place plants and animals in a hierarchical system of organization and, yes, it can be very useful but that doesn't make those categories have any real biological basis. Now I didn't argue that the Linnean system wasn't clearly definable or useful but apparently that's how I came across. My only point was that endless debates about species definitions are often less interesting than the organisms themselves. I would point out here, again, that a genus of butterflies bears little or no comparable biological reality to a genus of whales or bats or hominids. Hence the limitation with the Linnean system. As Alex pointed out there is some pretty good info on this in the old Peterson Klots' field guide (and lots of other places). Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? If so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - even though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. 2) Are there, and do we know - that Insects and Fish are very different? If so, then the rank of Phylum is clearly defined to a 4 year old - even though they don't know the terms, Arthropoda/Chordata. 3) Is there, and do we know - the difference between Butterflies and Lobsters? If so, the rank of Class is clearly defined to a 5 year old - even though they do not know the terms, Hexapoda/Crustacea. 4) Are there, and do we know - that butterflies/moths and beetles are different? If so, the rank of Order is clearly defined to a 6 year old - even though they do not know the terms, Lepidoptera/Coleoptera. 5) How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. 6) And among the butterflies, does a 8 year old now notice skippers are different from other butterflies? If so, then the taxonomic rank of Superfamily is acknowledged even though the terms Papilionoidea/Hesperioidea are yet unknown to them. 7) Does the budding lepidopterist of 9 clearly see that hairstreaks and swallowtails are different - even their larva? Ditto to the rank of Family. 8) If the youngster lived in the 1960's by 10 he would observe and also know the terms and parameters of Subfamily, Tribe, Genus and definitely species. His parents would have given him/her Klots and Holland or Comstock for their birthday and they would be well aware of it all. 9) But back when they were 2 they would have known what species are. Cow says moooo, pig says oink and dog says woof woof. They may not know that Mama's name is Hazeleen but they know she is not the dog or cat. 10) Unfortunately by the time they hit 35 and get a PhD they will have unlearned all this as they have now found that as extensions from the primeval ooze we are all the same 'thing" and nothing has really even gone extinct it has all just morphed into something(s) else. We have now "intellectualized" and "philosophized" the obvious to the point of asking silly questions like how do we know what a species is. As for the below bit of wisdom: What about hybridization? Are you suggesting a biological species concept that requires absolute reproductive isolation or is a little hybridization OK? Yes, check any encyclopedia and you'll find this simplified answer, it is just too bad that most organisms do not fit into this definition. As for Klots suggestion that they share inheritable, distinctive characters: Sure, they're called synapomorphies and depending upon what taxonomic level your interested in, they group individuals, populations, species, genera, etc. That, however, is a phylogenetic species concept, slightly different that the BSC. The PSC refers to independent evolutionary lineages, not the easiest thing to identify given horizontal gene transfer, hybridization, and lineage sorting. Anyway, my point here is that the classical definitions found in general texts and encyclopedias would fall short in almost any field. Again, though, Ron has a valid point that Lepidoptera is a sexual group of organisms that may be amenable to a more general species concept. By this thinking bacteria, that reproduce by fission, are all species...every single bacterium. So clearly, not the best concept for them. Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (replicate) themselves (their population) over and over. See any child's encyclopedia and you will find this answer. Or, just do what Alex said and check Klots page 296. Since most today don't have this I'll quote in part. "...In the first place a species is a population, composed of individuals. These have certain inheritable, distinctive characters in common, which set them apart from all other populations. They usually vary somewhat in minor expressions of these and other characters, but the variation is within definite limits. The species as a whole must reproduce itself, through the reproductive activities of the individuals. This must be done successfully enough for the survival of the species, which otherwise will become extinct. The reproductive power of the species must balance the destructive powers of its enemies and of other environmental forces. The species must, moreover, reproduce itself not only successfully but naturally. We are not concerned with man-made "hybrids." I addressed this earlier. Clearly, Ron felt I meant that no one actually ever wrote down a definition. I actually meant that there has never been a definition that is unadulterated by examples of taxa that fall outside its requisite boundaries. As for the rest of the statement, I take exception to the idea that I'm genetically engineered...OK, maybe a little bionic but certainly not designed:). Actually, Ron will be quite pleased to know that I have a lot of respect for both his opinions and age. That's why I've asked for his advice before! "There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, black-or-white, definition of species." Really. Lets see... Yup, the paper is still white and the ink black in my _old_ Klots guide. Looks clear, simple and in black and white- and 1951 qualifies as "has been". Of course, many of our new genetically engineered academia just see Klots (and the rest of us old times) as plain has beens. SNIP > I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack of > agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding > experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by life > and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such amazing > variety. > Just my two cents. > Ron, this is my favorite part, you really out did yourself on this one! I can't say much about the 60's, I was born in 1973. I spent thousands to go to college to realize that an inflexible definition is as rigid as the mind that conceived it. I don't have any problems with absolutes, that's my job to find the facts and truth about the process of speciation. I spent almost all of my time trying to understand how a population of organisms becomes two discrete evolutionary lineages. In fact, I work on our old favorite the "Red-Spotted Admiral". I'm a evolutionary biologists whose specialty is speciation. So, yes, I have thought long and hard about species and what I've learned is that putting rigid boundaries on a continuous process doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm more interested in understanding the mechanisms driving the process that defining its subjective endpoint. But, again, I'd be surprised if Ron didn't agree with me on that. I think the misunderstanding here is that he somehow things I don't appreciate the functionality of the Linnean system...well, Ron, I do. Sean Mullen Is this the 60's? Let's put flowers in our hair and smoke dope. Why pay thousands to go to college? To learn to have no absolutes? No clear definitions? To learn to be one with the cosmos and just lay back and enjoy it all? Yes, there is a marvelous diversity, and a great evolutionary complexity too. I do enjoy it. And I enjoy it more and more as I learn and understand it more and more. If the idiots making parking lots out of habitat could see that trees are oak AND pine, then kinds of oak and pine, Quercus and .... Perhaps they would enjoy it more than the mall. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010905/94c6fb8e/attachment.html From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Wed Sep 5 15:06:04 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:06:04 -0700 Subject: Klots and species --- Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB425@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Yes, clearly that is how Klots used the word population. The only point is that there are other ways/definitions to use the word population and we need to be aware that these differences exist so that we do not think we are communicating with someone else who has an entirely different understanding or use of the word. Are there any population biologists on this list that would take 2 minutes to advise us how population biologists tend to use the word. Of course I am not saying that any one definition is right or wrong. We have the metapopulation word/concept that would be worth commenting on for example. -----Original Message----- From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:34 AM To: 'Ron Gatrelle'; Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX; Leps-l Subject: RE: Klots and species --- But "a population" may refer to the population of my neighborhood, or of the city, or of the county, or of the state (or province - I grew up in Canada), or of the country. The "population" of the nation is, for example, made up numerous "populations" on the local level, i.e. all individuals ultimately are Americans (in the USA) or Canadians (in Canada). The same way, a population of Boloria eunomia dawsonii may refer to the single colony north of Errol, New Hampshire, or to the single colony north of St. Ignace, Michigan, or ultimately to all of the colonies of eastern North America, which collectively, comprise the "population" of the subspecies. I have read this particular statement by Klots many times over the years, and have always understood it as such. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:10 PM > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; Leps-l > Subject: Re: Klots and species --- > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" > Subject: Klots and species --- > > > > I do have one bone to pick with what Klots published. It is the notion > that > > "a species is a population". If one defines them as the same then the > > statement is acceptable. But my view is that a population and a species > are > > not at all the same 'thing'. > > Well, that was my thought exactly when typing in the statement. I think it > is inevitable the as we get more and more curious about the stuff in our > back yard - that we see the local population is "different" from another > local population. For the brave, we jump in and at times see a definable > evolutionary line and place the populations on that side of the line in > one > subspecies and the other side in another. Idle curiosity gone wild? > > The importance will be how this reads far into the future. Do we need to > give names to all these? Yes. But only as a means of communication toward > the future - not some ego of I got my name on something. Some folks have > questioned a couple things I have described subspecifically. I really > don't > care if they all get shot down or some even turn out to be species (which > it looks like one is). This is just communication to me - as I know it is > to Norbert. But, but, but. Norbert and I are both big on going back into > the lit to make sure the communication is accurate - and into the current > lit to make sure they checked it out before they wrote. If we are going to > communicate on X level then research it and do it as accurately as > possible. > Ron > > I'm going to try and shut up for a while - at least till tonight. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Wed Sep 5 15:14:32 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:14:32 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EA3@hqmail.gensym.com> Alex wrote: > I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep > mysteries have been > replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs and 15 Common > Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, > since when has it > become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? Ahhh, yes, but I guess it IS more important to encourage field work of any sort - even if the notion of counting does seem a bit less interesting (not to mention accurate) than sampling. I, for one, would like to know when someone sees hordes of Juvenal's Duskywings. In fact, I'm sorry I don't provide more information on frequency in my field posts - I've mostly stopped putting comments like 'common' or 'numerous' in them. A lot of this information is just as, if not more, important than the fact that the species was sighted at all (which I guess is Alex's point anyway - we don't talk about it like Klots did - at least not much, anymore). For example, on my most recent trip (while in Grant, Co. OR), I found lots of Fritillaries. One of them was Speyeria hydaspe. All the other species of Speyeria were fresh. Absolutely none of the S. hydaspe were fresh, and in fact there were few with whole wings at all. This would tell me that S. hydaspe flies quite a bit earlier than the other Speyeria (along with S. cybele leto), a simple enough conclusion - but one of significant interest nonetheless. Incidentally, I'm looking over the races of Speyeria according to Howe. Awesome. I don't care what you call them specifically, there's little more fascinating then a drawer showcasing ecologically induced Speyeria variation. Mark Walker Oceanside, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Wed Sep 5 15:18:05 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:18:05 -0400 Subject: bugs eating my drum PLEASE HELP Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EA4@hqmail.gensym.com> Carol Lemmon wrote: > > If you take an item at room temperature and toss it in a > freezer for 72 > hours.....should take care of any critters. I don't know the > size of your > drum, but perhaps someone you know has a chest freezer. > Otherwize you might > enclose it in plastic with a couple of those shell pest > strips inside for a > week or two. I agree with the No-Pest strip idea. That should definitely work, if you can seal it up somehow for a period of time. Of course, the possibility of a second generation needs to be guarded against as well. Mark Walker. > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Wed Sep 5 15:25:07 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:25:07 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C5C@NTFS2> Oh, I'm not saying the field work is not necessary. Quite the contrary! But if we observe the countless Fritillaries with the intent of merely drawing up a tally of "245 X, 126 Y, 57 Z... etc." without progressing beyond this level of study, then what is the worth of the field work, either to ourselves or to science? The poor fellow who has taken the time and spent the energy to determine that there were "223" instead of "225" Juvenal's Duskywings (and I'm using an example of a posting I saw from this past May- and the poor fellow reported them as "Juvenile's") himself is probably unaware of the treasures that exist on the other side of the door of understanding. That's what I'm talking about. This is why someone taking the time to count the actual number of Cabbages seems worthless to me while the person may be at same time being blind to the observation of the degree of white banding on an astyannax or the degree of hybridization between weidemeyerii and rubrofasciata etc. etc. Or even to the understanding of why some astyannax have bands and others don't. And the worst factor is that some people in leadership capacities permit or even propagate ignorance in others. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Walker [SMTP:MWalker at gensym.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:15 PM > To: 'agrkovich at tmpeng.com'; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > Alex wrote: > > > I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep > > mysteries have been > > replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs and 15 Common > > Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, > > since when has it > > become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? > > Ahhh, yes, but I guess it IS more important to encourage field work of any > sort - even if the notion of counting does seem a bit less interesting > (not > to mention accurate) than sampling. I, for one, would like to know when > someone sees hordes of Juvenal's Duskywings. In fact, I'm sorry I don't > provide more information on frequency in my field posts - I've mostly > stopped putting comments like 'common' or 'numerous' in them. A lot of > this > information is just as, if not more, important than the fact that the > species was sighted at all (which I guess is Alex's point anyway - we > don't > talk about it like Klots did - at least not much, anymore). For example, > on > my most recent trip (while in Grant, Co. OR), I found lots of > Fritillaries. > One of them was Speyeria hydaspe. All the other species of Speyeria were > fresh. Absolutely none of the S. hydaspe were fresh, and in fact there > were > few with whole wings at all. This would tell me that S. hydaspe flies > quite > a bit earlier than the other Speyeria (along with S. cybele leto), a > simple > enough conclusion - but one of significant interest nonetheless. > > Incidentally, I'm looking over the races of Speyeria according to Howe. > Awesome. I don't care what you call them specifically, there's little > more > fascinating then a drawer showcasing ecologically induced Speyeria > variation. > > > Mark Walker > Oceanside, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 15:42:38 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:42:38 -0400 Subject: species definitions! References: Message-ID: <013801c13642$eb9f1f60$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> species definitions!Sean -- THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!! Your check will be in the mail soon! I agree with everything you said. No exceptions - including my ending hyperbole. It did have a ring to it though you have to admit. I am a hyper, arm waving preacher for heavens sake - well sometimes the other place - as I am not always welcome in heaven. (For obvious reasons.) This was so good I had to break my vow of silence for the rest of the day and post to all. My points are sometimes flamboyantly presented but (like everyone else's) are actual perspectives and perceived truths. Flamboyant does not mean frivolous. It really is too bad this does not happen in person - over beverages. Again thanks for objectivity! Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean Patrick Mullen To: Leps-L at lists.yale.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: species definitions! Hey listers, I wrote the original note that Ron so recently retorted to. I appreciate his effort to make clear that his remarks were not a personal attack. Fortunately, I love to hear other opinions and I have a no fear of public embarrassment...I guess my experience in high school taught me something after all:). Actually, Ron is sensitive to an issue that I've run across repeatedly with email..tone! You really have a difficult time inferring what tone an author is taking and this can frequently lead to problems. Now back to the issue at hand. I suppose first I should apologize. My first inclination when I read Jim Taylor's request for a clear cut species definition was to simply delete the message. Unfortunately, I never really read past his one sentence request. Perhaps he was only asking of a species concept that we could agree upon for Lepidoptera? My mistake. I decide to post my rather casual reply to Jim for two reasons: 1) to start a debate and 2) to suggest that while there are undoubted benefits to thinking deeply about species concepts, it can be easy to get lost in the semantical details of the various definitions rather than appreciate the fact that most of us simply use a more functional concept based on simple, and subjective, personal recognition. No, if you care to read further I will address Ron's specific critiques :). It was written: > Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, > black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is > inherently subjective because the process that generate these > fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. > This is not true. Here, I take it that Ron feels my statement about there never being a clear definition of species is untrue, rather than disagreeing with the idea that speciation is a continuous process from undifferentiated to discrete. He's right, of course. There have been many clearly presented definitions of species. None of them works for all groups of organisms and there is no general agreement across life's diversity about the equivalence of a species of ant versus a species of bat but we'll let that go. If you're restricting you definition to the order Lepidoptera, then maybe you have a chance of agreement but I doubt it. As for the below points about Kingdom, Phylum, etc. Well, yes, clearly you can place plants and animals in a hierarchical system of organization and, yes, it can be very useful but that doesn't make those categories have any real biological basis. Now I didn't argue that the Linnean system wasn't clearly definable or useful but apparently that's how I came across. My only point was that endless debates about species definitions are often less interesting than the organisms themselves. I would point out here, again, that a genus of butterflies bears little or no comparable biological reality to a genus of whales or bats or hominids. Hence the limitation with the Linnean system. As Alex pointed out there is some pretty good info on this in the old Peterson Klots' field guide (and lots of other places). Sometimes we make things more complicated than they are. 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? If so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - even though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. 2) Are there, and do we know - that Insects and Fish are very different? If so, then the rank of Phylum is clearly defined to a 4 year old - even though they don't know the terms, Arthropoda/Chordata. 3) Is there, and do we know - the difference between Butterflies and Lobsters? If so, the rank of Class is clearly defined to a 5 year old - even though they do not know the terms, Hexapoda/Crustacea. 4) Are there, and do we know - that butterflies/moths and beetles are different? If so, the rank of Order is clearly defined to a 6 year old - even though they do not know the terms, Lepidoptera/Coleoptera. 5) How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. 6) And among the butterflies, does a 8 year old now notice skippers are different from other butterflies? If so, then the taxonomic rank of Superfamily is acknowledged even though the terms Papilionoidea/Hesperioidea are yet unknown to them. 7) Does the budding lepidopterist of 9 clearly see that hairstreaks and swallowtails are different - even their larva? Ditto to the rank of Family. 8) If the youngster lived in the 1960's by 10 he would observe and also know the terms and parameters of Subfamily, Tribe, Genus and definitely species. His parents would have given him/her Klots and Holland or Comstock for their birthday and they would be well aware of it all. 9) But back when they were 2 they would have known what species are. Cow says moooo, pig says oink and dog says woof woof. They may not know that Mama's name is Hazeleen but they know she is not the dog or cat. 10) Unfortunately by the time they hit 35 and get a PhD they will have unlearned all this as they have now found that as extensions from the primeval ooze we are all the same 'thing" and nothing has really even gone extinct it has all just morphed into something(s) else. We have now "intellectualized" and "philosophized" the obvious to the point of asking silly questions like how do we know what a species is. As for the below bit of wisdom: What about hybridization? Are you suggesting a biological species concept that requires absolute reproductive isolation or is a little hybridization OK? Yes, check any encyclopedia and you'll find this simplified answer, it is just too bad that most organisms do not fit into this definition. As for Klots suggestion that they share inheritable, distinctive characters: Sure, they're called synapomorphies and depending upon what taxonomic level your interested in, they group individuals, populations, species, genera, etc. That, however, is a phylogenetic species concept, slightly different that the BSC. The PSC refers to independent evolutionary lineages, not the easiest thing to identify given horizontal gene transfer, hybridization, and lineage sorting. Anyway, my point here is that the classical definitions found in general texts and encyclopedias would fall short in almost any field. Again, though, Ron has a valid point that Lepidoptera is a sexual group of organisms that may be amenable to a more general species concept. By this thinking bacteria, that reproduce by fission, are all species...every single bacterium. So clearly, not the best concept for them. Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (replicate) themselves (their population) over and over. See any child's encyclopedia and you will find this answer. Or, just do what Alex said and check Klots page 296. Since most today don't have this I'll quote in part. "...In the first place a species is a population, composed of individuals. These have certain inheritable, distinctive characters in common, which set them apart from all other populations. They usually vary somewhat in minor expressions of these and other characters, but the variation is within definite limits. The species as a whole must reproduce itself, through the reproductive activities of the individuals. This must be done successfully enough for the survival of the species, which otherwise will become extinct. The reproductive power of the species must balance the destructive powers of its enemies and of other environmental forces. The species must, moreover, reproduce itself not only successfully but naturally. We are not concerned with man-made "hybrids." I addressed this earlier. Clearly, Ron felt I meant that no one actually ever wrote down a definition. I actually meant that there has never been a definition that is unadulterated by examples of taxa that fall outside its requisite boundaries. As for the rest of the statement, I take exception to the idea that I'm genetically engineered...OK, maybe a little bionic but certainly not designed:). Actually, Ron will be quite pleased to know that I have a lot of respect for both his opinions and age. That's why I've asked for his advice before! "There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, black-or-white, definition of species." Really. Lets see... Yup, the paper is still white and the ink black in my _old_ Klots guide. Looks clear, simple and in black and white- and 1951 qualifies as "has been". Of course, many of our new genetically engineered academia just see Klots (and the rest of us old times) as plain has beens. SNIP > I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack of > agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding > experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by life > and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such amazing > variety. > Just my two cents. > Ron, this is my favorite part, you really out did yourself on this one! I can't say much about the 60's, I was born in 1973. I spent thousands to go to college to realize that an inflexible definition is as rigid as the mind that conceived it. I don't have any problems with absolutes, that's my job to find the facts and truth about the process of speciation. I spent almost all of my time trying to understand how a population of organisms becomes two discrete evolutionary lineages. In fact, I work on our old favorite the "Red-Spotted Admiral". I'm a evolutionary biologists whose specialty is speciation. So, yes, I have thought long and hard about species and what I've learned is that putting rigid boundaries on a continuous process doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm more interested in understanding the mechanisms driving the process that defining its subjective endpoint. But, again, I'd be surprised if Ron didn't agree with me on that. I think the misunderstanding here is that he somehow things I don't appreciate the functionality of the Linnean system...well, Ron, I do. Sean Mullen Is this the 60's? Let's put flowers in our hair and smoke dope. Why pay thousands to go to college? To learn to have no absolutes? No clear definitions? To learn to be one with the cosmos and just lay back and enjoy it all? Yes, there is a marvelous diversity, and a great evolutionary complexity too. I do enjoy it. And I enjoy it more and more as I learn and understand it more and more. If the idiots making parking lots out of habitat could see that trees are oak AND pine, then kinds of oak and pine, Quercus and .... Perhaps they would enjoy it more than the mall. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010905/a0d53ea4/attachment.html From MWalker at gensym.com Wed Sep 5 15:45:34 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:45:34 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EA7@hqmail.gensym.com> You're right, of course. No comment on the 'showcase of ecologically induced Speyeria variation'?. Mark Walker > -----Original Message----- > From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 12:25 PM > To: 'Mark Walker'; Grkovich, Alex; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > Oh, I'm not saying the field work is not necessary. Quite the > contrary! But > if we observe the countless Fritillaries with the intent of > merely drawing > up a tally of "245 X, 126 Y, 57 Z... etc." without > progressing beyond this > level of study, then what is the worth of the field work, either to > ourselves or to science? The poor fellow who has taken the > time and spent > the energy to determine that there were "223" instead of > "225" Juvenal's > Duskywings (and I'm using an example of a posting I saw from > this past May- > and the poor fellow reported them as "Juvenile's") himself is probably > unaware of the treasures that exist on the other side of the door of > understanding. That's what I'm talking about. This is why > someone taking the > time to count the actual number of Cabbages seems worthless > to me while the > person may be at same time being blind to the observation of > the degree of > white banding on an astyannax or the degree of hybridization between > weidemeyerii and rubrofasciata etc. etc. Or even to the > understanding of why > some astyannax have bands and others don't. And the worst > factor is that > some people in leadership capacities permit or even propagate > ignorance in > others. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Walker [SMTP:MWalker at gensym.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:15 PM > > To: 'agrkovich at tmpeng.com'; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > > Alex wrote: > > > > > I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep > > > mysteries have been > > > replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs > and 15 Common > > > Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, > > > since when has it > > > become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? > > > > Ahhh, yes, but I guess it IS more important to encourage > field work of any > > sort - even if the notion of counting does seem a bit less > interesting > > (not > > to mention accurate) than sampling. I, for one, would like > to know when > > someone sees hordes of Juvenal's Duskywings. In fact, I'm > sorry I don't > > provide more information on frequency in my field posts - > I've mostly > > stopped putting comments like 'common' or 'numerous' in > them. A lot of > > this > > information is just as, if not more, important than the > fact that the > > species was sighted at all (which I guess is Alex's point > anyway - we > > don't > > talk about it like Klots did - at least not much, anymore). > For example, > > on > > my most recent trip (while in Grant, Co. OR), I found lots of > > Fritillaries. > > One of them was Speyeria hydaspe. All the other species of > Speyeria were > > fresh. Absolutely none of the S. hydaspe were fresh, and > in fact there > > were > > few with whole wings at all. This would tell me that S. > hydaspe flies > > quite > > a bit earlier than the other Speyeria (along with S. cybele leto), a > > simple > > enough conclusion - but one of significant interest nonetheless. > > > > Incidentally, I'm looking over the races of Speyeria > according to Howe. > > Awesome. I don't care what you call them specifically, > there's little > > more > > fascinating then a drawer showcasing ecologically induced Speyeria > > variation. > > > > > > Mark Walker > > Oceanside, CA > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Wed Sep 5 16:36:42 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:36:42 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Merriam life zones Message-ID: There is a reason why the Merriam life zones that Klots made such good use of are not being mentioned as much these days. The basic concept of 'climax vegetation' is no longer so firmly in place as it once was, and Merriam's zones do not play a major role in modern ecology. The situation appears to be a bit more complex... Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Wed Sep 5 16:47:07 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:47:07 -0700 Subject: Merriam life zones Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB42A@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> --- certainly more complex in those areas where the landscape has not been substantially altered by our human activity. But certainly way more simple in the large areas of the planet where the 'climax vegetation' for the forseeable future consists of species-depauperate crops for ingestion by humans directly or indirectly through livestock :-) -----Original Message----- From: Kenelm Philip [mailto:fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:37 PM To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Subject: Merriam life zones There is a reason why the Merriam life zones that Klots made such good use of are not being mentioned as much these days. The basic concept of 'climax vegetation' is no longer so firmly in place as it once was, and Merriam's zones do not play a major role in modern ecology. The situation appears to be a bit more complex... Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From 1_iron at msn.com Wed Sep 5 16:49:41 2001 From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:49:41 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: Message-ID: <001201c1364c$4b5d3aa0$278a0a3f@1swch01> Folks: I don't know where I got the notion (I was an econ major), but I have always thought if two critters bred - and produced fertile offspring - they were of the same species. Are you telling me this is simplistic? Jim Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Patrick Mullen" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: Species definitions! > Sorry Jim! There never has been and never will be a clear, simple, > black-or-white, definition of species. The concept of species is > inherently subjective because the process that generate these > fascinating units of taxonomy is exactly that, a process. > > I find it difficult to imagine a definition that would satisfy > everyone. Speciation occurs over long geographic time scales, > sometimes relatively quickly and other times relatively slowly. In > either case, one population begins to diverge and is eventually > recognized as two separate biological entities. Much of the debate > over species concepts is driven by differences in opinion about when > the "recognition" should occur. Is it enough to be able to > distinguish among geographic variants of an organism? Is the > evolution of reproductive isolation a more appropriate landmark on > the road to speciation? > > Even assuming that you can personally come to believe in one species > concept over another, you'll still have to deal with other peoples > differing opinions and other organisms steadfast refusal to be so > classified by your scheme of choice:). > > I think that instead of feeling frustrated and discouraged by lack of > agreement on what a "species" is, it would be a more rewarding > experience to enjoy the truly marvelous diversity presented by life > and appreciate the complexity of processes that generate such amazing > variety. > > > Just my two cents. > > -Sean > > > > > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Status: U > From: "1_iron" <1_iron at msn.com> > To: "Ron Gatrelle" , "Leps-l" > Cc: "James Adams" > Subject: Re: genera > Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:47:55 -0400 > X-Priority: 3 > X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2001 09:47:19.0804 (UTC) > FILETIME=[C1355BC0:01C135EF] > Reply-To: 1_iron at msn.com > Sender: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu > > Listers: > > Haaalllpp!! Will someone please produce a simple, black-or-white, definition > of "species?" Seems to me all else is as James states: artificial. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Wed Sep 5 17:15:03 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:15:03 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: > Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? What about the single-celled organisms that may, or may not, contain chlorophyll? Back when there were only two kingdoms, it was totally unclear as to whether these were plants or animals. The hypothetical 3 year old might have a bit of trouble dealing with five kingdoms, let alone the Woese system of domains with _lots_ of kingdoms. > How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. The Heterocera/Rhopalocera split is outmoded taxonomy, since Heterocera do not form a monophyletic group. And note that the family Hedylidae now is included in the Rhopalocera, although they do not have clubbed antennae, and are not primarily diurnal--thus causing a problem for the hypothetical 7 year old. As far as the concept of species goes, we have a number of differ- ent and incompatible species concepts wandering around. Most of us were pre- sumably brought up on the BSC (biological species concept), according to which reproductive isolation is the key factor involved. Before that there was what one might call a morpholgical species concept. However, we cur- rently have the phylogenetic species concept (PSC), a close relation of the ESC (evolutionary species concept). See Zink & McKitrick: 'The Debate over Species Concepts and its Implications for Ornithology'. The Auk 112(3):701- 719, 1995. These concepts will yield different breakdowns of organisms into species--a problem which may appear in the courts as more laws and regulations are keyed to species, with respected taxonomists arguing for both sides of various issues. The trouble is that taxonomy is not simple, nor free from contro- versy. And the controversies will not be solved by appealing to the abil- ities of young children who are unaquainted with the full diversity to be found within any group of organisms. :-) Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Wed Sep 5 17:35:53 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:35:53 -0700 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB42B@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> I really do feel guilty about being so unusually mouthy today but gosh, the postings have been too interesting to let sleeping dogs lay :-) Further to the multitude of explicitly defined species concepts I have noticed two species concepts that some people have used, seemingly without even knowing that they are doing so. One is what I call the genitalic species concept, wherein some people take plainly different looking butterflies living in different places and even on different continents, look at the genitalia (sometimes not very carefully) and then pronounce them to be one species. Bogus logic at best and junk science at worst :-). Another is what I call the chemical species concept. Looking at the chemistry of selected gene segments is growing increasingly fashionable. Certainly gene chemistry, like genitalia, can provide some potentially useful data but there is always room for interpretation. The chemical species concept might argue that two butterflies with, for example, less than 3% difference in gene chemistry are the same species. Extending this logic to mammals would result in chimpanzies and humans being declared the same species. I have some difficulty accepting that there is some magic level of similarity in gene chemistry that defines what is or is not a species. -----Original Message----- From: Kenelm Philip [mailto:fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:15 PM To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Subject: Re: Species definitions! > Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? What about the single-celled organisms that may, or may not, contain chlorophyll? Back when there were only two kingdoms, it was totally unclear as to whether these were plants or animals. The hypothetical 3 year old might have a bit of trouble dealing with five kingdoms, let alone the Woese system of domains with _lots_ of kingdoms. > How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. The Heterocera/Rhopalocera split is outmoded taxonomy, since Heterocera do not form a monophyletic group. And note that the family Hedylidae now is included in the Rhopalocera, although they do not have clubbed antennae, and are not primarily diurnal--thus causing a problem for the hypothetical 7 year old. As far as the concept of species goes, we have a number of differ- ent and incompatible species concepts wandering around. Most of us were pre- sumably brought up on the BSC (biological species concept), according to which reproductive isolation is the key factor involved. Before that there was what one might call a morpholgical species concept. However, we cur- rently have the phylogenetic species concept (PSC), a close relation of the ESC (evolutionary species concept). See Zink & McKitrick: 'The Debate over Species Concepts and its Implications for Ornithology'. The Auk 112(3):701- 719, 1995. These concepts will yield different breakdowns of organisms into species--a problem which may appear in the courts as more laws and regulations are keyed to species, with respected taxonomists arguing for both sides of various issues. The trouble is that taxonomy is not simple, nor free from contro- versy. And the controversies will not be solved by appealing to the abil- ities of young children who are unaquainted with the full diversity to be found within any group of organisms. :-) Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Wed Sep 5 17:47:16 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:47:16 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EAD@hqmail.gensym.com> Kenelm wrote: > The trouble is that taxonomy is not simple, nor free > from contro- > versy. And the controversies will not be solved by appealing > to the abil- > ities of young children who are unaquainted with the full diversity to > be found within any group of organisms. :-) Ahhh, but Ken is a spoil sport. The notion that taxonomy is as basic as the classification skills of a nine-year old is pretty significant. Now granted, these skills are not to be underestimated - they are indicative of an extremely high degree of intelligence - but nevertheless it would suggest that the whole thing is perhaps made more difficult than necessary within academia. Ken speaks of the difficulties in successfully separating even Heterocera and Rhopalocera. This is true - given the sets of differentiators we have at our disposal. But nevertheless the nine year old (or was that six year old?) can indeed infer a difference. It is the challenge of the taxonomist to figure out why or how. In doing so, we must not fool ourselves into thinking that our explanations are more inspired or intellectual. There is still so much more to learn from the child's perspective. I, personally, long for the perspective I had as a child. The bottom line, I suppose, is that our 'language' isn't as rich as it needs to be to do the whole thing proper justice. Mark Walker Oceanside, CA > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 5 18:04:15 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:04:15 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: Message-ID: <015b01c13656$b4822540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenelm Philip" Subject: Re: Species definitions! > Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? What about the single-celled organisms that may, or may not, contain chlorophyll? Back when there were only two kingdoms, it was totally unclear as to whether these were plants or animals. The hypothetical 3 year old might have a bit of trouble dealing with five kingdoms, let alone the Woese system of domains with _lots_ of kingdoms. RG - This is why I said "Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (replicate) themselves ...." By our Order I meant Lepidoptera ( the Order at hand - not one of the 5 current Kingdoms) > How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. The Heterocera/Rhopalocera split is outmoded taxonomy, since Heterocera do not form a monophyletic group. And note that the family Hedylidae now is included in the Rhopalocera, although they do not have clubbed antennae, and are not primarily diurnal--thus causing a problem for the hypothetical 7 year old. RG -- Ken you're an old guy what are you doing binging this up - I figured one of the youngsters would. At least someone did though - just not who I expected. As far as the concept of species goes, we have a number of differ- ent and incompatible species concepts wandering around. Most of us were pre- sumably brought up on the BSC (biological species concept), according to which reproductive isolation is the key factor involved. Before that there was what one might call a morpholgical species concept. However, we cur- rently have the phylogenetic species concept (PSC), a close relation of the ESC (evolutionary species concept). See Zink & McKitrick: 'The Debate over Species Concepts and its Implications for Ornithology'. The Auk 112(3):701- 719, 1995. These concepts will yield different breakdowns of organisms into species--a problem which may appear in the courts as more laws and regulations are keyed to species, with respected taxonomists arguing for both sides of various issues. RG -- As I said in rephrasing Klots. This can not all be dealt with on email. But hopefully some are being inspired to make a trip to the local library. Or, sit down over some beverages and discuss it all. > > The trouble is that taxonomy is not simple, nor free from contro- > versy. And the controversies will not be solved by appealing to the abil- > ities of young children who are unaquainted with the full diversity to > be found within any group of organisms. :-) > > Ken Philip > fnkwp at uaf.edu RG -- Ah! But they instinctively know "it all". This is why little kids so soon in life find their own genitalia. My almost 3 year old grandson is being potty trained. He has been allowed some extra nude time as a result. He came running to may daughter (that's his mom for the technically correct) the other day equipment in hand ".....Mommy, Mommy it get big." How proud he was. As we all know he will find this very useful later to help preserve our species. and some etc too. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From robert.beiriger at worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 5 23:50:47 2001 From: robert.beiriger at worldnet.att.net (robert beiriger) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:50:47 -0700 Subject: bugs in drums Message-ID: <009e01c13687$1e5a3e00$c4034e0c@terib> >JJCardinal wrote: >> I had this happen with imported, wooden statuary. When I called the local FDA >> they said to burn the items immediately. They were concerned with infestation >> of a non-native species. Being I had quite a shipment of these items I was >> required to acquire a burn permit. These permits are given out first >> come-first served. I was allowed to burn them the afternoon I called. >> >> They could be very serious pests. >Not likely a unique or serious pest. It's very likely one of the 15 common >stored product insect pests (mainly beetles) that have near world wide distributions. >Some flour mills (e.g. General Mills) heat up their plants to 130-140 degrees >with heaters to kill off stored product insect pest infestations in food processing >machinery. That's why I suggested putting the drum inside a hot car in the sun >for a day. >Paul Cherubini, Placerville, Calif. Generally, heat of 120 to 140 degrees will kill stored product pest infections, if mantained for 24-48 hrs. Even in sunny South Florida, a car on a hot day would not be able to maintan enough heat to kill all the pest. Robert Beiriger Loxahatchee, FL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010905/29bb9e3e/attachment.html From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 5 21:17:19 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:17:19 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: The Words Essay in NATURE Sept 6, 2001] Message-ID: <3B96CE9E.1563FDD8@eohsi.rutgers.edu> I'll gtake a chance on forwarding this satire (I think it's a satire) to THE LIST. It runs on a bit too long for my literary taste, but covers familiarf ground in an unfamiliar way. MIKE GOCHFELD Neal Smith wrote: > I have seen this done before, but never as well........... Not only do they have the most beautiful language in the world, but these people excel in their ability to take a non-native guttural tongue and run with it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > A tale from Bioutopia > > PIER LUIGI NIMIS > > Pier Luigi Nimis ielvetica, arial, sans serif" size=1>Pier Luigi Nimis is in the Department of Biology, University of Trieste, Via L. Giorgieri 10, I-34127 Trieste, Italy, and is president of the International Association of Lichenology. > ( I HAVE WRITTEN THIS DOWN EXACTLY AS I RECEIVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) > > Could a change of nomenclature bring peace to biology's warring tribes? > > THE CASTLE BY MARK BARING. PRIVATE COLLECTION/BRIDGEMAN ART LIBRARY > > Tower of power: the exalted Real Taxonomists, armed with knowledge, can change the Names. > > Once upon a time, two tribes dominated Bioutopia. The small but powerful tribe of Real Taxonomists occupied several scattered ivory towers in the mountains. The huge but poor tribe of Name-users lived in the swamps. They both worshipped Names, but with different rites. The Name-users peacefully adored a huge book made of granite, in which billions of Names were inscribed for Eternity. The favourite occupation of the cruel Real Taxonomists was sacrificing a few Names every day, just by changing them. This they did after consulting their Oracle, Phylogenia, who lived in a cloudy forest. > > One day, Phylogenia started to worship a new God, called DNA, and uttered the following words: "Why should Lichenia splendens stay together with L. tristis and those other 347 species in the same genus? DNA has spoken. The Names must change!" None of the Name-users had complained when L. tristis was transferred from the family Licheniaceae to the Tristidaceae, but they all got upset when the Real Taxonomists decided that these 348 species must be called Thundertenthronckia, because DNA had spoken. The trouble started at a meeting of the Parliament of Bioutopia. They had to change the law protecting L. tristis, the official state organism, and they refused to rename it Thundertenthronckia tristis. > > Then the war started. Billions of Name-users on one side, the few Real Taxonomists on the other. A fire was burning all around that cruel battle, the same fire that all of us quietly host in the warm shelter of our beloved binomial system. > > Generic epithets are indeed like viruses. They are carriers of dangerous phylogenetic implications that kill names. As a sin of my old age, three years ago I tried to warn against the rash acceptance of new generic names. I was so naive as to suggest that the Real Taxonomists should consider the needs of the poor Name-users. > > When I reread that article recently, I saw myself as an old Victorian lady fighting against the outrageous trend of wearing skirts so short as to expose the knee. Now, after three years of molecular brainstorming, even the nuns of Bioutopia go around in miniskirts. The thin umbrellas of Victorian ladies cannot fight against the hurricane of generic changes that is ahead. And why should they try? Why should one fight against something fresh, exciting and so scientifically sound? Those who worship books of granite cannot hinder a free development of (r)evolutionary taxonomy. > > There is a sentence engraved on the stone cover of the Name-users' book: "Nomina si nescis, perit et cognitio rerum", which means: "If you do not know the Names, Knowledge is also dead for you." The Name-users explained to me that humans, the only animal to develop language, cannot worship a dictionary from which 10% of the names are scraped out every year. This made me think. Name-users gain knowledge by learning and using names. But the Real Taxonomists produce brand new knowledge for mankind. Why should these tribes fight against each other? Do we really need this conflict? Do we really need generic names? > > I therefore consulted another Oracle, called Logic, and she dictated: "Get rid of the binomial." Every species in Bioutopia could be designated by a single epithet: a number, or a barcode, the best food for computers. Surely Name-users ? such as curators of collections and databases, authors of books and identification keys, legislators and teachers ? should be happy with something like: "It's an X157YR22297!" The Real Taxonomists could then concentrate on more important matters than scraping Names off granite, and Phylogenia would be free to change her mind whenever she liked. The Name would remain the same. Peace would return to Bioutopia. > > Yet I wonder how many amateurs, having found a rare L. splendens on an old oak, will exclaim joyfully to their companions: "Wow! Look at this! I've found X157YR22297!" I also wonder what they should say when, more cautiously, they think they've found just "a Lichenia". Surely not "I've found something starting with X157...". > > Last week I read an article about the pressure from public authorities in the United Kingdom to create vernacular names for organisms. That article has come to my mind now, but in association with a different question: "Is L. splendens better than X157YR22297 for an amateur who reads only Chinese?" Perhaps L. splendens, although not a 'vernacular' name, could find a place in the list of 'mid-level names' ? those that exist for half-educated people, like most of us, who would have problems in remembering what X157YR22297 is. > > As a citizen of Bioutopia, I have an identity card. It bears my social security number (NMSPLGP09etc., I always forget it) plus my Name (Pier Luigi Nimis), although my parents call me "Pil" (my vernacular name). I do not see anything wrong in being named 'NMSPLGP09etc.' in all official transactions with my government. If this works for people, why should it not work for organisms? > > There is an alternative solution: let things continue the way they're going. The war will eventually stop when every single species belongs to a monospecific genus. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 5 21:23:58 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:23:58 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378C5C@NTFS2> Message-ID: <3B96D02E.D0F6F50@eohsi.rutgers.edu> The following is written with subdued tone. Although I applaud going beyond the numbers to examine ecology, ethology, physiology, morphology and variation etc, I think there is something that must be said in support of numbers, if they are systematically (and more or less accurately) obtained. "245 X, 126 Y, 57 Z when collected over time and space can provide important information about the populations in question. MIKE GOCHFELD > Oh, I'm not saying the field work is not necessary. Quite the contrary! But > if we observe the countless Fritillaries with the intent of merely drawing > up a tally of "245 X, 126 Y, 57 Z... etc." without progressing beyond this > level of study, then what is the worth of the field work, either to > ourselves or to science? The poor fellow who has taken the time and spent > the energy to determine that there were "223" instead of "225" Juvenal's > Duskywings (and I'm using an example of a posting I saw from this past May- > and the poor fellow reported them as "Juvenile's") himself is probably > unaware of the treasures that exist on the other side of the door of > understanding. That's what I'm talking about. This is why someone taking the > time to count the actual number of Cabbages seems worthless to me while the > person may be at same time being blind to the observation of the degree of > white banding on an astyannax or the degree of hybridization between > weidemeyerii and rubrofasciata etc. etc. Or even to the understanding of why > some astyannax have bands and others don't. And the worst factor is that > some people in leadership capacities permit or even propagate ignorance in > others. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Walker [SMTP:MWalker at gensym.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:15 PM > > To: 'agrkovich at tmpeng.com'; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > > Alex wrote: > > > > > I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep > > > mysteries have been > > > replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs and 15 Common > > > Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, > > > since when has it > > > become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? > > > > Ahhh, yes, but I guess it IS more important to encourage field work of any > > sort - even if the notion of counting does seem a bit less interesting > > (not > > to mention accurate) than sampling. I, for one, would like to know when > > someone sees hordes of Juvenal's Duskywings. In fact, I'm sorry I don't > > provide more information on frequency in my field posts - I've mostly > > stopped putting comments like 'common' or 'numerous' in them. A lot of > > this > > information is just as, if not more, important than the fact that the > > species was sighted at all (which I guess is Alex's point anyway - we > > don't > > talk about it like Klots did - at least not much, anymore). For example, > > on > > my most recent trip (while in Grant, Co. OR), I found lots of > > Fritillaries. > > One of them was Speyeria hydaspe. All the other species of Speyeria were > > fresh. Absolutely none of the S. hydaspe were fresh, and in fact there > > were > > few with whole wings at all. This would tell me that S. hydaspe flies > > quite > > a bit earlier than the other Speyeria (along with S. cybele leto), a > > simple > > enough conclusion - but one of significant interest nonetheless. > > > > Incidentally, I'm looking over the races of Speyeria according to Howe. > > Awesome. I don't care what you call them specifically, there's little > > more > > fascinating then a drawer showcasing ecologically induced Speyeria > > variation. > > > > > > Mark Walker > > Oceanside, CA > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 5 21:30:45 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:30:45 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB42B@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3B96D1C4.C57C2FDF@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Like Norbert I remain to be convinced that genetic distance (represented as percent) means the same thing in different taxa (or for that matter in diffrerent fragments of the same two taxa). But then I was weaned in an era where neutral mutations were anathema. Mike Gochfeld Mike Gochfeld "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > I really do feel guilty about being so unusually mouthy today but gosh, the > postings have been too interesting to let sleeping dogs lay :-) Further to > the multitude of explicitly defined species concepts I have noticed two > species concepts that some people have used, seemingly without even knowing > that they are doing so. One is what I call the genitalic species concept, > wherein some people take plainly different looking butterflies living in > different places and even on different continents, look at the genitalia > (sometimes not very carefully) and then pronounce them to be one species. > Bogus logic at best and junk science at worst :-). Another is what I call > the chemical species concept. Looking at the chemistry of selected gene > segments is growing increasingly fashionable. Certainly gene chemistry, like > genitalia, can provide some potentially useful data but there is always room > for interpretation. The chemical species concept might argue that two > butterflies with, for example, less than 3% difference in gene chemistry are > the same species. Extending this logic to mammals would result in > chimpanzies and humans being declared the same species. I have some > difficulty accepting that there is some magic level of similarity in gene > chemistry that defines what is or is not a species. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenelm Philip [mailto:fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:15 PM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: Species definitions! > > > Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? > > What about the single-celled organisms that may, or may not, contain > chlorophyll? Back when there were only two kingdoms, it was totally unclear > as to whether these were plants or animals. The hypothetical 3 year old > might have a bit of trouble dealing with five kingdoms, let alone the > Woese system of domains with _lots_ of kingdoms. > > > How about moths and butterflies? Does a 7 year old know they are > > different? If so, then the rank of Suborder is evident to him/her even > > though they likely do not know the terms Heterocera/Rhopalocera. > > The Heterocera/Rhopalocera split is outmoded taxonomy, since Heterocera > do not form a monophyletic group. And note that the family Hedylidae now > is included in the Rhopalocera, although they do not have clubbed antennae, > and are not primarily diurnal--thus causing a problem for the hypothetical > 7 year old. > > As far as the concept of species goes, we have a number of differ- > ent and incompatible species concepts wandering around. Most of us were pre- > sumably brought up on the BSC (biological species concept), according to > which reproductive isolation is the key factor involved. Before that there > was what one might call a morpholgical species concept. However, we cur- > rently have the phylogenetic species concept (PSC), a close relation of the > ESC (evolutionary species concept). See Zink & McKitrick: 'The Debate over > Species Concepts and its Implications for Ornithology'. The Auk 112(3):701- > 719, 1995. These concepts will yield different breakdowns of organisms > into species--a problem which may appear in the courts as more laws and > regulations are keyed to species, with respected taxonomists arguing for > both sides of various issues. > > The trouble is that taxonomy is not simple, nor free from contro- > versy. And the controversies will not be solved by appealing to the abil- > ities of young children who are unaquainted with the full diversity to > be found within any group of organisms. :-) > > Ken Philip > fnkwp at uaf.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From xiwang at sprint.ca Wed Sep 5 20:38:41 2001 From: xiwang at sprint.ca (Xi Wang) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:38:41 -0400 Subject: Unidentified chrysalis Message-ID: <3B96C591.2731@sprint.ca> Hi all, I founnd a chrysalis today while searching for monarch larvae, and have been unable to ID it. Morphologically, it closely resembles the pupa of Vanessa cardui, except it's a golden colour. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Xi Wang ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gganweiler at sprint.ca Wed Sep 5 22:23:42 2001 From: gganweiler at sprint.ca (Gary Anweiler Edmonton Alberta Canada) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:23:42 -0600 Subject: Unidentified chrysalis References: <3B96C591.2731@sprint.ca> Message-ID: Sounds like maybe a Euptoieta claudia, the Variegated Fritillary - gorgeous little things. -- Gary Anweiler, Edmonton Alberta Canada Xi Wang wrote in message news:3B96C591.2731 at sprint.ca... > Hi all, > > I founnd a chrysalis today while searching for monarch larvae, and have > been unable to ID it. Morphologically, it closely resembles the pupa of > Vanessa cardui, except it's a golden colour. Any comments would be > greatly appreciated. > > TIA, > Xi Wang ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Thu Sep 6 01:43:10 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:43:10 -0500 Subject: species definitions! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010905234351.00a75ec0@mail.utexas.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010906/d1755156/attachment.html From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Thu Sep 6 02:07:51 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 01:07:51 -0500 Subject: Species definitions! In-Reply-To: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EA7@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010906005238.00a85dc0@mail.utexas.edu> Mark, I shall risk a comment on the 'showcase of ecologically induced Speyeria variation'. Back in July of '66 I had a very interesting visit from Bill Howe at East Rosebud Lake, Carbon Co., MT (aka Alpine). We talked at length over specimens of the 14 OTUs of *Speyeria* found in East Rosebud Canyon and the 2 to 5 percent incidence of intermediates that I was finding between most possible combinations (including genitalic characters where these are significant). I encouraged him to illustrate as many of the described subspecies as possible, because of the diversity hidden in this genus, that had (then) recently been reduced to 13 species in North America by L. P. Grey in Ehrlich & Ehrlich 1961 (How to Know the Butterflies. Pictured Key Nature Series). (Yes this was a high powered taxonomic treatment by the leading expert. New genera were described by other experts in this publication.) I am glad Bill Howe went ahead and did illustrate a spectrum of *Speyeria* even though I strongly disagree with some of his identifications. ..............Chris Durden At 03:45 PM 9/5/2001 -0400, you wrote: >You're right, of course. > >No comment on the 'showcase of ecologically induced Speyeria variation'?. > >Mark Walker > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 12:25 PM > > To: 'Mark Walker'; Grkovich, Alex; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > > > > Oh, I'm not saying the field work is not necessary. Quite the > > contrary! But > > if we observe the countless Fritillaries with the intent of > > merely drawing > > up a tally of "245 X, 126 Y, 57 Z... etc." without > > progressing beyond this > > level of study, then what is the worth of the field work, either to > > ourselves or to science? The poor fellow who has taken the > > time and spent > > the energy to determine that there were "223" instead of > > "225" Juvenal's > > Duskywings (and I'm using an example of a posting I saw from > > this past May- > > and the poor fellow reported them as "Juvenile's") himself is probably > > unaware of the treasures that exist on the other side of the door of > > understanding. That's what I'm talking about. This is why > > someone taking the > > time to count the actual number of Cabbages seems worthless > > to me while the > > person may be at same time being blind to the observation of > > the degree of > > white banding on an astyannax or the degree of hybridization between > > weidemeyerii and rubrofasciata etc. etc. Or even to the > > understanding of why > > some astyannax have bands and others don't. And the worst > > factor is that > > some people in leadership capacities permit or even propagate > > ignorance in > > others. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mark Walker [SMTP:MWalker at gensym.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:15 PM > > > To: 'agrkovich at tmpeng.com'; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > > > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > > > > Alex wrote: > > > > > > > I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep > > > > mysteries have been > > > > replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs > > and 15 Common > > > > Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, > > > > since when has it > > > > become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? > > > > > > Ahhh, yes, but I guess it IS more important to encourage > > field work of any > > > sort - even if the notion of counting does seem a bit less > > interesting > > > (not > > > to mention accurate) than sampling. I, for one, would like > > to know when > > > someone sees hordes of Juvenal's Duskywings. In fact, I'm > > sorry I don't > > > provide more information on frequency in my field posts - > > I've mostly > > > stopped putting comments like 'common' or 'numerous' in > > them. A lot of > > > this > > > information is just as, if not more, important than the > > fact that the > > > species was sighted at all (which I guess is Alex's point > > anyway - we > > > don't > > > talk about it like Klots did - at least not much, anymore). > > For example, > > > on > > > my most recent trip (while in Grant, Co. OR), I found lots of > > > Fritillaries. > > > One of them was Speyeria hydaspe. All the other species of > > Speyeria were > > > fresh. Absolutely none of the S. hydaspe were fresh, and > > in fact there > > > were > > > few with whole wings at all. This would tell me that S. > > hydaspe flies > > > quite > > > a bit earlier than the other Speyeria (along with S. cybele leto), a > > > simple > > > enough conclusion - but one of significant interest nonetheless. > > > > > > Incidentally, I'm looking over the races of Speyeria > > according to Howe. > > > Awesome. I don't care what you call them specifically, > > there's little > > > more > > > fascinating then a drawer showcasing ecologically induced Speyeria > > > variation. > > > > > > > > > Mark Walker > > > Oceanside, CA > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Thu Sep 6 02:03:28 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:03:28 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chrysalis References: <3B96C591.2731@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3B9711B0.E25E8FF4@mail.mcn.org> Xi: I found a gold/ tan cardui larva last (?) month & decided it was from feeding on a bush that was drying up. It eventually hatched. Bill Xi Wang wrote: > Hi all, > > I founnd a chrysalis today while searching for monarch larvae, and have > been unable to ID it. Morphologically, it closely resembles the pupa of > Vanessa cardui, except it's a golden colour. Any comments would be > greatly appreciated. > > TIA, > Xi Wang ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Thu Sep 6 02:17:08 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 01:17:08 -0500 Subject: Merriam life zones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010906010955.00a64870@mail.utexas.edu> Ken is right. Klots mixed and confused Merriam Life Zones with Wallacean/Blairian Biotic Provinces. In the field, Life Zones are sharpest where Biotic Provinces meet and the genetic diversity of the component species is thinned. Near the middle of a mature Biotic Province it is difficult or impossible to map life zones because the ecotypic diversity of the component species is so rich that their altitudinal range is amplified. ..........Chris Durden At 12:36 PM 9/5/2001 -0800, you wrote: > There is a reason why the Merriam life zones that Klots made such >good use of are not being mentioned as much these days. The basic concept >of 'climax vegetation' is no longer so firmly in place as it once was, >and Merriam's zones do not play a major role in modern ecology. The >situation appears to be a bit more complex... > > Ken Philip >fnkwp at uaf.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Thu Sep 6 05:39:01 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:39:01 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: I'm a bit confused now. When I quoted the first sentence of Ron's paragraph: >> 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? >> If so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - >> even though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. and commented: > What about the single-celled organisms that may, or may not, contain > chlorophyll? Back when there were only two kingdoms, it was totally > unclear as to whether these were plants or animals. The hypothetical > 3 year old might have a bit of trouble dealing with five kingdoms, let > alone the Woese system of domains with _lots_ of kingdoms. Ron's reply was: > RG - This is why I said > "Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (repli- > cate) themselves ...." By our Order I meant Lepidoptera ( the Order > at hand - not one of the 5 current Kingdoms) That reply does not address my comment--which is limited to plants versus animals, and has nothing to say about Lepidoptera--which I mentioned later on in my note. Then to my comment on Rhopalocera/Heterocera Ron said: > RG -- Ken you're an old guy what are you doing b[r]inging this up Old I may be, but I've learned a few things since I read Klots excellent field guide... No one ever called me a cladist--but it's been fairly obvious for a long time that the butterflies are merely a rather small part of the order, and do not form a clearly demarcated suborder with all the remaining families in one other suborder. The taxonomic differences within the so-called Heterocera are far greater than those between Rhopalocera and the most closely related groups of moths, and if butterflies were to be considered a suborder then there must be a _number_ of other suborders within Lepidoptera. For example, the Hodges checklist has 5 suborders in Lepidoptera, and butterflies form 2 of 18 superfamilies within the suborder Ditrysia. Scoble has 12 suborders, but still has the butterflies in Ditrysia, as 3 superfamilies, along with the macro moths and a number of microlepidopteran groups. You can't break the butterflies alone out of the rest of the order--butterflies are just slightly odd moths... One can't just dismiss all taxonomy since Holland as 'dumbing down' the field (presumably no one actually _does_ that!)--a lot has been learned since those days, and more is being found out all the time. Insect taxonomy will be changing for a long time to come... Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From SUNSOL at prodigy.net Thu Sep 6 08:18:20 2001 From: SUNSOL at prodigy.net (Sunsol) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 12:18:20 GMT Subject: Unidentified chrysalis References: <3B96C591.2731@sprint.ca> Message-ID: Red admirals have golden chrysalids. But I think the word "chrysalis" means gold in Greek, so maybe many chrysalids are gold. Sally Xi Wang wrote in message news:3B96C591.2731 at sprint.ca... > Hi all, > > I founnd a chrysalis today while searching for monarch larvae, and have > been unable to ID it. Morphologically, it closely resembles the pupa of > Vanessa cardui, except it's a golden colour. Any comments would be > greatly appreciated. > > TIA, > Xi Wang ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jhimmel at connix.com Thu Sep 6 08:54:57 2001 From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:54:57 -0400 Subject: polyphemus in CT Message-ID: <003201c136d3$22987260$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel> Hi All - I had reared out some Antheraea polyphemus from some eggs laid by a female I found in early July. I fed them chestnut and chestnut oak. They went into cocoon at various times ranging from early to late August. So far, four of them have eclosed over the last two days! I never even had a chance to get them out to their cocoonery to overwinter! In CT, it would be expected that they wouldn't eclose until late next spring. Any idea of what may have caused their accelerated their development? With the windows open in my studio, and they always are, it is about the same temperature as outdoors. The moths are all about 60% of their normal size. I wonder if this falls in the category of "pioneering". It's well known that Actias Luna is double brooded in CT, so that's one large saturniid that can pull off that feat. I would expect that other species "try" to exand their flight time and range and will continue to throughout their existance, not unlike Eurema lisa's fruitless egg laying in this state in the fall. John Himmelman PS - I only reared out half of the 50 or so eggs. The other half I left in the wild. Every single one of them died via the pointy, or chewing, end of various hymenoptera after reaching the 3rd (or so) instar. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: John Himmelman Killingworth, CT USA jhimmel at connix.com ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Visit my websites at: http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html www.ctamphibians.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010906/da343490/attachment.html From Citheronia at aol.com Thu Sep 6 10:23:04 2001 From: Citheronia at aol.com (Citheronia at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:23:04 EDT Subject: Lepidopterists in NY Message-ID: <14d.85153a.28c8e0c9@aol.com> Hello everyone, I was wondering if any of you know of any Lepidopterists in the Potsdam/Canton/etc. area of New York state (St. Lawerence County). I'm attending S.U.N.Y. at Potsdam (Crane School of Music) and I'd like to meet some local collectors/enthusiasts, if there are any. Thank you for any information! Randy Lyttle Citheronia at aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From lutzrun at avalon.net Thu Sep 6 11:44:14 2001 From: lutzrun at avalon.net (Martha Rosett Lutz) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:44:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: polyphemus in CT Message-ID: John Himmelman wrote: "I had reared out some Antheraea polyphemus from some eggs laid by a female I found in early July. I fed them chestnut and chestnut oak. They went into cocoon at various times ranging from early to late August. So far, four of them have eclosed over the last two days! I never even had a chance to get them out to their cocoonery to overwinter! In CT, it would be expected that they wouldn't eclose until late next spring. Any idea of what may have caused their accelerated their development?" Were they reared indoors, under artificial light? I can 'force' multivoltine Saturniids to go through 'extra' generations by rearing the larvae under long day-lengths using artificial light. The only univoltine species I have worked with is H. cecropia, and no matter what I do I only get one generation per year. But I can start (i.e. cause adults to emerge, mate, and lay eggs) lunas or other multivoltine species in early March and keep them going until November (this is part of a project related to taking these pretty moths into grade schools for the kids to work with--not just a mindless attempt to mess up the moths). If your larvae were outdoors and/or under natural light conditions . . . maybe just pioneers, seeing if they can get away with one more generation! In Stride, Martha Rosett Lutz P.S. A. polyphemus larvae will eat--and may thrive on--autumn leaves, even ones that are changing color, as long as the leaves are well hydrated and the insects are kept warm. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com Thu Sep 6 13:42:26 2001 From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:42:26 -0400 Subject: polyphemus in CT References: <003201c136d3$22987260$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel> Message-ID: <000201c136fc$9b79e500$10e3fea9@s0022921733> John - Back in the 80's when I worked as a naturalist at Hammonasset Beach State Park, we regularly found adult Polyphemus moths in mid-to-late August - never very many, but it was a regular occurrence. I always wondered if they were locals or maybe they flew in / blew in from elsewhere (Long Island?). Clay ----- Original Message ----- From: JH To: Leps-to-all Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:54 AM Subject: polyphemus in CT Hi All - I had reared out some Antheraea polyphemus from some eggs laid by a female I found in early July. I fed them chestnut and chestnut oak. They went into cocoon at various times ranging from early to late August. So far, four of them have eclosed over the last two days! I never even had a chance to get them out to their cocoonery to overwinter! In CT, it would be expected that they wouldn't eclose until late next spring. Any idea of what may have caused their accelerated their development? With the windows open in my studio, and they always are, it is about the same temperature as outdoors. The moths are all about 60% of their normal size. I wonder if this falls in the category of "pioneering". It's well known that Actias Luna is double brooded in CT, so that's one large saturniid that can pull off that feat. I would expect that other species "try" to exand their flight time and range and will continue to throughout their existance, not unlike Eurema lisa's fruitless egg laying in this state in the fall. John Himmelman PS - I only reared out half of the 50 or so eggs. The other half I left in the wild. Every single one of them died via the pointy, or chewing, end of various hymenoptera after reaching the 3rd (or so) instar. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: John Himmelman Killingworth, CT USA jhimmel at connix.com ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Visit my websites at: http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html www.ctamphibians.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010906/8088dfaa/attachment.html From JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu Thu Sep 6 13:51:03 2001 From: JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu (DR. JAMES ADAMS) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:51:03 -0400 Subject: Klots and species --- In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB423@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <200109061750.NAA04271@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> Listers, Jeepers. I certainly didn't mean to start all this. Not that I'm necessarily complaining, as it is good to have this type of conversation from time to time. I'm glad Norbert said what he said about species (see below), as it is really the best species definition there is (although not one that is necessarily useful to us humans). Norbert said: > animals decide, the opinion of a taxonomist who thinks the difference > is minor is really irrelevant. This is really the whole point. A species consist of those individuals who can recognize (in some fashion) conspecifics, and distinguish them from non-conspecifics. Ron might say consubspecifics, and I'm willing to give him that one. Species (and certainly some named subspecies) are real; just because *humans* have a difficult time with defining species boundaries, and even the species themselves have the same difficulty, makes them no less real. And Jim, unfortunately there is no one easy definition for species, especially when you start looking at plants, as species maintain reproductive isolation in so many different ways and, as was pointed out, we are in a constantly changing environment where species are redefining themselves (hence subspecies, "semispecies" and the like). Geez, I hope I haven't opened another can of worms. I haven't come close to reading all the responses to this yet, but I do have a few *opinions* about some of the stuff that has been said. Excuse me if others have already made the following points. One: it is remarkable how picky some people can be about what is said (I include myself here). In my original message, I said something about "species or *populations of* species evolve", not any of the higher taxonomic categories. My meaning was that, if a species consists of just one population, its entire evolution is therefore connected. Clearly for most species, it is the individual populations that are the evolutionary units, not the whole species. I then stated something to the effect that "once a *species* is separate from any other formerly connected species, it is irrelevant to that species what happens to those other lineages." Ron called me on this, saying I was "almost on the money" as it was "subspecies that evolve, not species". Well, excu-use me! (tongue in cheek). Species almost invariably will *first exist as single populations*, and because of this the entire species evolution is at least initially tied together. Obviously, I'm being picky now. Two: subspecies. I have made it abundantly clear in the past my feelings about this category, or perhaps I should say the *application of this category*. I have seen this taxonomic category so misused and misapplied in the past that I have a tendency to be very skeptical when new subspecies are named. This is by no fault of the concept itself -- obviously. But an incredibly clear understanding of existing populations, named or not, and gene flow between them is necessary before the subspecific, or specific status of a population can be understood. All I'm going to say on this topic for now. Three: I'll restate what I said before; any taxonomic category not connected currently by some sort of gene flow (subspecies/species) is an artificial *biological* construct. I never said that genera/families/orders/classes/phyla (or any super-/sub- categories thereof) were not useful or biologically informative. But a child being able to recognize an arthropod, mammal, primate, or cat does not make the taxa we call "phyla", "class", "order" or "family" any more non-subjective. And, no, I'm not saying that the subjectivity is uneducated subjectivity. How do we decide whether to call a certain group of species a genus or a tribe or a family? By some level of perceived relatedness based upon a *lot* of research. It is through all this research that we've come to a tremendous amount of agreement on classification schemes. However, *people* are involved, and as such *we cannot* escape some differences of opinion and interpretation, *some or all* of which may be well researched, educated opinions!! James Dr. James K. Adams Dept. of Natural Science and Math Dalton State College 213 N. College Drive Dalton, GA 30720 Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) U of Michigan's President James Angell's Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Thu Sep 6 14:12:57 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:12:57 -0400 Subject: Merriam life zones Message-ID: Maybe that is true, but that still is no reason to ignore the concept as if it doesn't exist. Ignoring the concept has resulted in an obvious ignorance in many many people as to why some species do or do not range occur in a given area. Here is perhaps a very good example. Anyone who has lived in the northeast has heard about "Water Moccasins" swimming in the swamps and waters of southern New England. Just last Monday there was a very large Northern Water Snake lying with a large catfish in its mouth by the water's edge at the Ashley Reservoir, Holyoke, MA. I got asked by at least 6 people as to whether it was a moccasin or whether it had venom. How easy it would be to understand that the Cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus) is a snake of the Lower Austral Zone (an examination of the species range reveals this fact) and that as such it could opt possibly be found in the north (unless someone would be dumb enough to introduce them). In 20 years living in New England I have had to inform numerous people of this fact, including fisherman, hunters, people who routinely hike, etc. I once had to inform a local park ranger and several times have informed individuals involved in conservation up here that, don't worry, they are not found here. I'm sorry but I would have to expect people to be more knowledgeable. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenelm Philip [SMTP:fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:37 PM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Merriam life zones > > > There is a reason why the Merriam life zones that Klots made such > good use of are not being mentioned as much these days. The basic concept > of 'climax vegetation' is no longer so firmly in place as it once was, > and Merriam's zones do not play a major role in modern ecology. The > situation appears to be a bit more complex... > > Ken Philip > fnkwp at uaf.edu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Thu Sep 6 14:35:49 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:35:49 -0700 Subject: Klots and species --- Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43A@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Perfectly OK to be picky; it is how we humans slowly and sometimes painfully move from the transmitting of words to something that approximates real communication :-) When you have the time please do share your thoughts on how the subspecies concept should be applied. We all benefit from an open exhange of perspectives on such or even any topic. -----Original Message----- From: DR. JAMES ADAMS [mailto:JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:51 AM To: Leps-l at lists.yale.edu Subject: RE: Klots and species --- Listers, Jeepers. I certainly didn't mean to start all this. Not that I'm necessarily complaining, as it is good to have this type of conversation from time to time. I'm glad Norbert said what he said about species (see below), as it is really the best species definition there is (although not one that is necessarily useful to us humans). Norbert said: > animals decide, the opinion of a taxonomist who thinks the difference > is minor is really irrelevant. This is really the whole point. A species consist of those individuals who can recognize (in some fashion) conspecifics, and distinguish them from non-conspecifics. Ron might say consubspecifics, and I'm willing to give him that one. Species (and certainly some named subspecies) are real; just because *humans* have a difficult time with defining species boundaries, and even the species themselves have the same difficulty, makes them no less real. And Jim, unfortunately there is no one easy definition for species, especially when you start looking at plants, as species maintain reproductive isolation in so many different ways and, as was pointed out, we are in a constantly changing environment where species are redefining themselves (hence subspecies, "semispecies" and the like). Geez, I hope I haven't opened another can of worms. I haven't come close to reading all the responses to this yet, but I do have a few *opinions* about some of the stuff that has been said. Excuse me if others have already made the following points. One: it is remarkable how picky some people can be about what is said (I include myself here). In my original message, I said something about "species or *populations of* species evolve", not any of the higher taxonomic categories. My meaning was that, if a species consists of just one population, its entire evolution is therefore connected. Clearly for most species, it is the individual populations that are the evolutionary units, not the whole species. I then stated something to the effect that "once a *species* is separate from any other formerly connected species, it is irrelevant to that species what happens to those other lineages." Ron called me on this, saying I was "almost on the money" as it was "subspecies that evolve, not species". Well, excu-use me! (tongue in cheek). Species almost invariably will *first exist as single populations*, and because of this the entire species evolution is at least initially tied together. Obviously, I'm being picky now. Two: subspecies. I have made it abundantly clear in the past my feelings about this category, or perhaps I should say the *application of this category*. I have seen this taxonomic category so misused and misapplied in the past that I have a tendency to be very skeptical when new subspecies are named. This is by no fault of the concept itself -- obviously. But an incredibly clear understanding of existing populations, named or not, and gene flow between them is necessary before the subspecific, or specific status of a population can be understood. All I'm going to say on this topic for now. Three: I'll restate what I said before; any taxonomic category not connected currently by some sort of gene flow (subspecies/species) is an artificial *biological* construct. I never said that genera/families/orders/classes/phyla (or any super-/sub- categories thereof) were not useful or biologically informative. But a child being able to recognize an arthropod, mammal, primate, or cat does not make the taxa we call "phyla", "class", "order" or "family" any more non-subjective. And, no, I'm not saying that the subjectivity is uneducated subjectivity. How do we decide whether to call a certain group of species a genus or a tribe or a family? By some level of perceived relatedness based upon a *lot* of research. It is through all this research that we've come to a tremendous amount of agreement on classification schemes. However, *people* are involved, and as such *we cannot* escape some differences of opinion and interpretation, *some or all* of which may be well researched, educated opinions!! James Dr. James K. Adams Dept. of Natural Science and Math Dalton State College 213 N. College Drive Dalton, GA 30720 Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) U of Michigan's President James Angell's Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Thu Sep 6 15:23:57 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 12:23:57 -0700 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43C@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this season. I have put an image and a request for comments on http://www.norbert.eboard.com under the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of butterflies to deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. The image is large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your mouse to copy the image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes and to see all four specimens in one view. Enjoy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Thu Sep 6 15:47:45 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:47:45 -0400 Subject: Species definitions References: Message-ID: <006301c1370c$cce9e3a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Hello again. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenelm Philip" Re: Species definitions! I'm a bit confused now. When I quoted the first sentence of Ron's paragraph: > 1) Are there, and do we know - that plants and animals are different? > If so, then the rank of Kingdom is clearly defined to a 3 year old - > even though they don't know the terms, Plantae/Animalia. and commented: What about the single-celled organisms that may, or may not, contain chlorophyll? Back when there were only two kingdoms, it was totally unclear as to whether these were plants or animals. The hypothetical 3 year old might have a bit of trouble dealing with five kingdoms, let alone the Woese system of domains with _lots_ of kingdoms. Ron's reply was: > RG - This is why I said > "Simple, in our Order, they have sex all the time and reproduce (repli- > cate) themselves ...." By our Order I meant Lepidoptera ( the Order > at hand - not one of the 5 current Kingdoms) That reply does not address my comment--which is limited to plants versus animals, and has nothing to say about Lepidoptera--which I mentioned later on in my note. __________________ New stuff RG - That is because the "what about" was to me a deviation from the subject of species definitions, specifically re Lepidoptera. I was moving through a series of _broad_ examples to address Leps species - not refined peripheral what ifs - not some exception to a rule. I was not trying to take us to the edge of home plate to discuss when a strike becomes a ball. I was trying to direct the focus to the center of the plate - to common knowledge where not even an umpire (=cladist) is needed. Perhaps I should have said "..plants (trees, grass, flowers) and animals (dogs, cats, people)..." Let me rephrase. _Within_ the animal Kingdom is an Order called Lepidoptera which is made up of species - the center of the contextual plate. The ten examples I gave are all just parts of a single illustration. The injection of how many Kingdoms, other theoretical systems, etc. is like bringing up how baseballs are manufactured into a discussion on where the center of the strike zone is. From this perspective my reply makes sense - I was saying the one celled organism is irrelevant to the topic of sexually reproductive species _within_ the Order Lepidoptera _within_ the Animal Kingdom. Perhaps my problem is that in the original question I read it as "What makes a _butterfly or moth_ a species?" Rather than - " In dealing with mitochondrial DNA sequences, specifically in relation to understudied areas like COI or ND5 (at least in Lepidoptera) -- and considered exclusive of any nuclear protein coding -- how are species defined, assuming they can be delineated from such limited material examination, and at what point or loci absent of additional examination of other amino acids? " > > Then to my comment on Rhopalocera/Heterocera Ron said: > > > RG -- Ken you're an old guy what are you doing b[r]inging this up > I was just being light and social = not serious. I had also posted a lot of verbiage that day and was self-conscious about hogging the Kbytes. I also just didn't want to get into that at that time - or now. Someone else can do that :-) Cheery Ronnie PS I guess my problem is that I think to much like a 3 year old. Must be because I am around one so much - my well hung grandson of last post. 8^) ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Leptraps at aol.com Thu Sep 6 15:48:12 2001 From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:48:12 EDT Subject: polyphemus in CT Message-ID: <44.12e6aa3d.28c92cfd@aol.com> When I lived in Florida (Both times) A. polyphemus was on the wing year round in Palm Beach and Broward Couunty. One of the first moths I encountered after Hurricane Irene blew through in October of 1999, was A. polyphemus. Automeris io and Anisota virginiensis were both on the wing all year long as well. Cheers, Leroy C. Koehn 202 Redding Rd. Georgetown, KY 40324 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jhimmel at connix.com Thu Sep 6 16:11:17 2001 From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:11:17 -0400 Subject: polyphemus in CT Message-ID: <004401c13710$1743ac80$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel> A few people emailed me suggesting artificial light as the culprit for the "polyphemi" early emergence. The larvae were reared indoors, but by an open window under natural light. It was in a corner of the room that doesn't receive a lot of light at night - some ambient light would reach them, but not so much as to make a big difference. It will be interesting to see if more come out this evening. I had given one to a friend about a week ago. He hadn't gotten around to preparing for its overwintering it either. Shocked the living @#$!! out of him when it emerged and flew into his head while he was watching TV in the livingroom last night! ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: John Himmelman Killingworth, CT USA jhimmel at connix.com ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Visit my websites at: http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html www.ctamphibians.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> -----Original Message----- From: Martha Rosett Lutz To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Date: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:03 PM Subject: Re: polyphemus in CT >John Himmelman wrote: > >"I had reared out some Antheraea polyphemus from some eggs laid by a female >I found in early July. I fed them chestnut and chestnut oak. They went >into cocoon at various times ranging from early to late August. So far, >four of them have eclosed over the last two days! I never even had a >chance to get them out to their cocoonery to overwinter! In CT, it would >be expected that they wouldn't eclose until late next spring. >Any idea of what may have caused their accelerated their development?" > > >Were they reared indoors, under artificial light? I can 'force' >multivoltine Saturniids to go through 'extra' generations by rearing the >larvae under long day-lengths using artificial light. The only univoltine >species I have worked with is H. cecropia, and no matter what I do I only >get one generation per year. But I can start (i.e. cause adults to emerge, >mate, and lay eggs) lunas or other multivoltine species in early March and >keep them going until November (this is part of a project related to taking >these pretty moths into grade schools for the kids to work with--not just a >mindless attempt to mess up the moths). > >If your larvae were outdoors and/or under natural light conditions . . . >maybe just pioneers, seeing if they can get away with one more generation! > >In Stride, >Martha Rosett Lutz > >P.S. A. polyphemus larvae will eat--and may thrive on--autumn leaves, even >ones that are changing color, as long as the leaves are well hydrated and >the insects are kept warm. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Thu Sep 6 16:15:50 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:15:50 -0700 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43D@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> OK, I confess :-). I do indeed have a bandwagon/agenda. There is so much that we do not know about even such a tiny part of the biodiversity on this planet as my friends the butterflies. There is a lot of really speculative stuff and just plain goofy stuff in the literature on butterfly taxonomy that needs to be researched and reconsidered under a different light and new information. We desperately need more people with energy and open minds looking into these affairs. The idea that we intelligent human beings should continue to repeat past errors in nomenclature and taxonomy just because some people like to have stable names is highly abhorent to me. There cannot be progress without change and there cannot be change without people questioning the status quo as perpetrated by those who are willing to subvert science for reasons of name stability or databasing technicalities. That is my secret agenda - lets learn more about butterflies, lets have fun doing it, lets correct the errors of the past, lets share what we learn with other people who may be interested. As usual, everyone else is most welcome to pursue their agenda as well :-) -----Original Message----- From: DR. JAMES ADAMS [mailto:JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:52 PM To: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX Subject: RE: Species definitions! Listers, I'm still catching up, but I have a couple more things to say. I think I'm also jumping on Norbert's bandwagon (sorry, Norbert for presuming that you *have* a bandwagon). He's saving me a lot of writing! Norbert said: . . . The chemical species > concept might argue that two butterflies with, for example, less than > 3% difference in gene chemistry are the same species. Extending this > logic to mammals would result in chimpanzies and humans being declared > the same species. I have some difficulty accepting that there is some > magic level of similarity in gene chemistry that defines what is or is > not a species. This gets back to my point about subjectivity of taxonomic categories. 3% differences is certain traits may be incredibly important to certain organisms and represent what we humans might call even generic differences (or family differences when it comes to humans and chimps), but in other groups of organisms, 3% difference in a trait may be completely insignificant and fall within normal variation even within a population. What happens in insects may be in no way directly comparable to what happens in mammals, or monocots, or sponges (I'm purposely mixing taxonomic categories to make a point). When you say a child can recognize the differences between moths and butterflies (even if this was a natural division), that is *all you can say*. That child does *not* recognize the suborder level of taxonomic nomenclature, only names we have applied to what we *call* a suborder. A subtle, but incredibly important distinction. What constitutes suborders in one group of organisms might be perceived as families in a different group of organisms. It *is* to an extent, no matter how much we don't want to think it is, *arbitrary*! James Dr. James K. Adams Dept. of Natural Science and Math Dalton State College 213 N. College Drive Dalton, GA 30720 Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) U of Michigan's President James Angell's Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Thu Sep 6 16:41:30 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:41:30 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: The Good Lord has given us who were created in His image so much to do, so much to learn, and so much to know in this Life and this World. I realize that, with everything that I do understand and know, that I am only scratching at the surface. There is so much more to know and so much more is known by others than that which is known by me. I will confess this freely. When we do willingly shut our eyes and ears and close our hearts, then we are in truth no longer alive even though we continue to walk this earth. As far as the Limenitis are concerned, it may very well be that the entire arthemis/rubrofasciata/astyannax/weidemeyerii/lorquini complex is in fact conspecific since they all freely hybridize in their contact zones and produce fertile offspring. Their ranges fit one another quite nicely. Structurally they are nearly similar, are they not? Archippus does hybridize with astyannax in the Mississippi Valley at least, but apparently produces only sterile male offspring, and also does rarely hybridizes with arthemis. It is obviously very closely related to them. What about arizonensis? Is there any known hybridization with either weidemeyerii or archippus? What is its true relationship with astyannax? This whole group seems to be in a very fluid and ongoing continuous evolutionary state. There is obviously genetic transfer between all of them. And then we come to the subject of the Buckeyes? What are they? I have a "Common" Buckeye from Dayton, Ohio that bears a striking resemblance to the Dark Buckeye (it isn't one, I won't exaggerate, but it certainly resembles it). Anyone care to elaborate? > -----Original Message----- > From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX [SMTP:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca] > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:16 PM > To: 'jadams at em.daltonstate.edu' > Cc: 'lepsl' > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > OK, I confess :-). I do indeed have a bandwagon/agenda. There is so much > that we do not know about even such a tiny part of the biodiversity on > this > planet as my friends the butterflies. There is a lot of really > speculative > stuff and just plain goofy stuff in the literature on butterfly taxonomy > that needs to be researched and reconsidered under a different light and > new > information. We desperately need more people with energy and open minds > looking into these affairs. The idea that we intelligent human beings > should > continue to repeat past errors in nomenclature and taxonomy just because > some people like to have stable names is highly abhorent to me. There > cannot > be progress without change and there cannot be change without people > questioning the status quo as perpetrated by those who are willing to > subvert science for reasons of name stability or databasing > technicalities. > That is my secret agenda - lets learn more about butterflies, lets have > fun > doing it, lets correct the errors of the past, lets share what we learn > with > other people who may be interested. As usual, everyone else is most > welcome > to pursue their agenda as well :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: DR. JAMES ADAMS [mailto:JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu] > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:52 PM > To: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > Listers, > > I'm still catching up, but I have a couple more things to say. I > think I'm also jumping on Norbert's bandwagon (sorry, Norbert for > presuming that you *have* a bandwagon). He's saving me a lot of > writing! > > Norbert said: > > . . . The chemical species > > concept might argue that two butterflies with, for example, less than > > 3% difference in gene chemistry are the same species. Extending this > > logic to mammals would result in chimpanzies and humans being declared > > the same species. I have some difficulty accepting that there is some > > magic level of similarity in gene chemistry that defines what is or is > > not a species. > > This gets back to my point about subjectivity of taxonomic > categories. 3% differences is certain traits may be incredibly > important to certain organisms and represent what we humans > might call even generic differences (or family differences when it > comes to humans and chimps), but in other groups of organisms, > 3% difference in a trait may be completely insignificant and fall > within normal variation even within a population. What happens in > insects may be in no way directly comparable to what happens in > mammals, or monocots, or sponges (I'm purposely mixing > taxonomic categories to make a point). When you say a child can > recognize the differences between moths and butterflies (even if > this was a natural division), that is *all you can say*. That child > does *not* recognize the suborder level of taxonomic > nomenclature, only names we have applied to what we *call* a > suborder. A subtle, but incredibly important distinction. What > constitutes suborders in one group of organisms might be > perceived as families in a different group of organisms. It *is* to an > extent, no matter how much we don't want to think it is, *arbitrary*! > > James > > Dr. James K. Adams > Dept. of Natural Science and Math > Dalton State College > 213 N. College Drive > Dalton, GA 30720 > Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 > http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) > U of Michigan's President James Angell's > Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Thu Sep 6 17:17:50 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:17:50 -0700 Subject: The Limenitis question Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43F@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Alex raises some questions on Limenitis: "As far as the Limenitis are concerned, it may very well be that the entire arthemis/rubrofasciata/astyannax/weidemeyerii/lorquini complex is in fact conspecific since they all freely hybridize in their contact zones and produce fertile offspring. Their ranges fit one another quite nicely. Structurally they are nearly similar, are they not? Archippus does hybridize with astyannax in the Mississippi Valley at least, but apparently produces only sterile male offspring, and also does rarely hybridizes with arthemis. It is obviously very closely related to them. What about arizonensis? Is there any known hybridization with either weidemeyerii or archippus? What is its true relationship with astyannax? This whole group seems to be in a very fluid and ongoing continuous evolutionary state. There is obviously genetic transfer between all of them." My comments: This is a really fascinating example which unlike most butterflies has had a good deal of research and we have some data. But everything is still open to how one defines a species and how one interprets that data and whether or not one accepts that the data is even relevant to the issue; eg. some people think that UV reflectance or lack thereof has taxonomic value while others do not think that way. Adam Porter (1989 Am. Nat.) published on his look at the arizonensis/weidemeyerii contact in New Mexico. Hybrids of these apparently exist but on the basis of electrophoretic comparison of 19 presumptive loci he concluded that these taxa are fully reproductively isolated. The perhaps shocking conclusion that I came to after looking at Limenitis literature is that arizonensis has no business being placed as a ssp of arthemis/astyanax and should be treated as a full species.. Porter even mentions this in his paper. Further the history of treating arthemis and astyanax as conspecific may come to an end eventually. See for example the work of Waldbauer et al in Can. J. Zool. 1988. It was not that many years ago when everyone blindly accepted Papilio canadensis and Papilio glaucus as one species on the basis of a perceived 'blending' zone. If we accepted hybrids as proof of conspecific status then many species of ducks and geese would disappear from our bird lists :-) I personally have no problem with good species hybridizing in narrow/relatively narrow contact zones. Hey, Colias philodice and euytheme are alleged to do this over much of their range :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Thu Sep 6 18:16:53 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:16:53 -0700 Subject: Pieris Pictures Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB441@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Some recent butterfly books are not reliable as aids to identifying three Pieris species in western Canada. This is because of errors in the photographs (wrong species illustrated)or color distortion from the photography and printing process. I just quickly put some images on http://www.norbert.eboard.com under the heading of Western Canada Pieris. Apologies for them being uncropped and eventually I want to add some females and 'flava' phenotypes but this will give you an idea of what they look like in case you want to watch some butterflies in the northwest part of the continent. I cannot resist the snotty comment that anyone looking for pictures of Pieris napi should consult a European website or book. We do not have that species in North America :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Thu Sep 6 18:47:55 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 18:47:55 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: Message-ID: <3B97FD1B.188F70C@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Alex, I think I understand your point. But as a Cabbage-counter, let me defend my point. I do regular censuses of butterflies in our yard. The number of Cabbages (probably the only species that will allow statistical analysis) varies dramatically from 0 (rarely) to over 100 (rarely), usually in the 6 to 20 range. What governs this variability: year to year variation seasonal phenology daily cycles immediate weather conditions (particularly sunshine and temperature) weather the preceeding week, month, or winter (needs too many samples) chance How much variation is there on counts taken 30 min apart, 1 hr, 4 hrs. I wish I could say that over the 10 years, I have gotten enough "samples" to address all of these variables. But it is clearly interesting. Whether it matters to the Cabbages, or not, I can't say. It's not that I care much about Cabbages, but that no other species is consistent enough to provide the statistical variability to analyze. There are other techniques (logistic regression on presence or absence) that I'll use for other species. You will be pleased to know that the number of Uncomphagre Fritillaries in the yard does not show the same degree of variability (probably for other reasons). Mike Gochfeld "Grkovich, Alex" wrote: > > No argument, Michael. But when counting numbers becomes the total focus, > then something is wrong. All summer I have seen countless e-mails of that > type: endless numbers and numbers. Then I began to ask: "OK, but what > actually did you see? Did the "Red Spotted Admiral" (Michael, I am dead > against that name for individuals of the species; I don't mind referring > that name to the entire species as a whole) you say you saw have blue HW or > bands, or what % of bands" etc. "Were there any Northern Crescents among the > 43 Pearl Crescents?" Did any of your 157 Common Wood Nymphs lack orange > bands? Or were any with yellow bands? Reduced FW eyespot?" etc. etc. etc. > > Unless we're talking about the Uncompaghre Fritillary, it shouldn't make any > difference as to whether there are 235 or 254 specimens in a large field. > There should be more important things to focus on. > > Michael, do you not understand what it is that I'm trying to express? Who > should care whether there are 25 or 35 Cabbages flying around? Klots said > that his new book "was necessary to reflect the change in our science, that > it has progressed beyond the rigid and static, and has become more fluid > and dynamic" something like that. What I'm seeing is a subtle return to what > Klots spoke of that had passed. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Gochfeld [SMTP:gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:24 PM > > To: agrkovich at tmpeng.com; 'Leps-l' > > Cc: 'Mark Walker' > > Subject: Re: Species definitions! > > > > The following is written with subdued tone. Although I applaud going > > beyond the > > numbers to examine ecology, ethology, physiology, morphology and variation > > etc, > > I think there is something that must be said in support of numbers, if > > they are > > systematically (and more or less accurately) obtained. "245 X, 126 Y, 57 > > Z > > when collected over time and space can provide important information about > > the > > populations in question. MIKE GOCHFELD > > > > > Oh, I'm not saying the field work is not necessary. Quite the contrary! > > But > > > if we observe the countless Fritillaries with the intent of merely > > drawing > > > up a tally of "245 X, 126 Y, 57 Z... etc." without progressing beyond > > this > > > level of study, then what is the worth of the field work, either to > > > ourselves or to science? The poor fellow who has taken the time and > > spent > > > the energy to determine that there were "223" instead of "225" Juvenal's > > > Duskywings (and I'm using an example of a posting I saw from this past > > May- > > > and the poor fellow reported them as "Juvenile's") himself is probably > > > unaware of the treasures that exist on the other side of the door of > > > understanding. That's what I'm talking about. This is why someone taking > > the > > > time to count the actual number of Cabbages seems worthless to me while > > the > > > person may be at same time being blind to the observation of the degree > > of > > > white banding on an astyannax or the degree of hybridization between > > > weidemeyerii and rubrofasciata etc. etc. Or even to the understanding of > > why > > > some astyannax have bands and others don't. And the worst factor is that > > > some people in leadership capacities permit or even propagate ignorance > > in > > > others. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Mark Walker [SMTP:MWalker at gensym.com] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:15 PM > > > > To: 'agrkovich at tmpeng.com'; 'Ron Gatrelle'; 'Leps-l' > > > > Subject: RE: Species definitions! > > > > > > > > Alex wrote: > > > > > > > > > I guess what bothers me the most is that such very deep > > > > > mysteries have been > > > > > replaced by endless reports of "I saw 23 Orange Sulphurs and 15 > > Common > > > > > Sulphurs and 223 Juvenals Duskywings and ...." And anyway, > > > > > since when has it > > > > > become so important to actually count Cabbage Butterflies???? > > > > > > > > Ahhh, yes, but I guess it IS more important to encourage field work of > > any > > > > sort - even if the notion of counting does seem a bit less interesting > > > > (not > > > > to mention accurate) than sampling. I, for one, would like to know > > when > > > > someone sees hordes of Juvenal's Duskywings. In fact, I'm sorry I > > don't > > > > provide more information on frequency in my field posts - I've mostly > > > > stopped putting comments like 'common' or 'numerous' in them. A lot > > of > > > > this > > > > information is just as, if not more, important than the fact that the > > > > species was sighted at all (which I guess is Alex's point anyway - we > > > > don't > > > > talk about it like Klots did - at least not much, anymore). For > > example, > > > > on > > > > my most recent trip (while in Grant, Co. OR), I found lots of > > > > Fritillaries. > > > > One of them was Speyeria hydaspe. All the other species of Speyeria > > were > > > > fresh. Absolutely none of the S. hydaspe were fresh, and in fact > > there > > > > were > > > > few with whole wings at all. This would tell me that S. hydaspe flies > > > > quite > > > > a bit earlier than the other Speyeria (along with S. cybele leto), a > > > > simple > > > > enough conclusion - but one of significant interest nonetheless. > > > > > > > > Incidentally, I'm looking over the races of Speyeria according to > > Howe. > > > > Awesome. I don't care what you call them specifically, there's little > > > > more > > > > fascinating then a drawer showcasing ecologically induced Speyeria > > > > variation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark Walker > > > > Oceanside, CA > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > -- ================================================ Michael Gochfeld, MD, PhD Professor of Environmental and Community Medicine UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute 170 Frelinghuysen Road Piscataway, NJ 08854 USA 732-445-0123 X627 fax 732-445-0130 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Thu Sep 6 19:25:25 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:25:25 -0700 Subject: Unidentified chrysalis References: <3B96C591.2731@sprint.ca>, Message-ID: <3B9805E5.7B4FA8B8@mail.mcn.org> Xi: wait till it hatches to see for shure, (then tell us). Another guess might be a parasitized vanessa. I picked up several that were larger than normal and lighter color (goldish), they all hatched out Braconid wasps. Bill Gary Anweiler Edmonton Alberta Canada wrote: > Sounds like maybe a Euptoieta claudia, the Variegated Fritillary - gorgeous > little things. > -- > Gary Anweiler, Edmonton Alberta Canada > Xi Wang wrote in message news:3B96C591.2731 at sprint.ca... > > Hi all, > > > > I founnd a chrysalis today while searching for monarch larvae, and have > > been unable to ID it. Morphologically, it closely resembles the pupa of > > Vanessa cardui, except it's a golden colour. Any comments would be > > greatly appreciated. > > > > TIA, > > Xi Wang ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Thu Sep 6 23:19:26 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:19:26 -0400 Subject: Species definitions! References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43D@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3B983CBD.CADACAF1@eohsi.rutgers.edu> I agree that it would be great to have energetic people with open minds exploring the biology and relationships among butterflies. But I am reminded of the elementary school "joke" to whit: Or perhaps the blind men and the elephant. Some of the new researchers will examine morphology (and yes probably genitalia) Some will study behavior, some may even find a solid way of analyzing pheromone signals. Some will study biochemical variables and others gene products or gene sequences themselves. Each will proudly produce a tree, but how congruent will the trees be. My experience with birds indicates only so-so. The late Charles Sibley began his study of relationships among birfds at the morphological level and progressed slowly to egg white proteins, serum protein electrophoresis, and eventually DNA hybridization (with probably a few other technological forays) with which he was able to characterize relationshipos and some traits proved more useful at the species than at higher levels. However, in many cases the congruence among the different treees was poor. Since I suspect we can probably all agree that selection act on organisms rather than on the individual genes or codons, He once told me that it was troublesome that the different suites of traits yielded different understandings, but he was confident that the current technique (DNA hybridization) would prove infallible if it's secrets can be interpreted. (at least until the next technology comes along). Fortunately for Charles he didn't live to put up with learning yet a new system. Mike Gochfeld ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Fri Sep 7 01:02:05 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 00:02:05 -0500 Subject: The Limenitis question In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43F@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc .ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010906234634.00a5ddf0@mail.utexas.edu> Norbert, I think you are on the right track. .........Chris Durden See notes below - At 02:17 PM 9/6/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Alex raises some questions on Limenitis: >"As far as the Limenitis are concerned, it may very well be that the entire >arthemis/rubrofasciata/astyannax/weidemeyerii/lorquini complex is in fact >conspecific since they all freely hybridize in their contact zones and >produce fertile offspring. Their ranges fit one another quite nicely. >Structurally they are nearly similar, are they not? Archippus does hybridize >with astyannax in the Mississippi Valley at least, but apparently produces >only sterile male offspring, and also does rarely hybridizes with arthemis. >It is obviously very closely related to them. What about arizonensis? Is >there any known hybridization with either weidemeyerii or archippus? What is >its true relationship with astyannax? This whole group seems to be in a very >fluid and ongoing continuous evolutionary state. There is obviously genetic >transfer between all of them." >My comments: >This is a really fascinating example which unlike most butterflies has had a >good deal of research and we have some data. But everything is still open to >how one defines a species and how one interprets that data and whether or >not one accepts that the data is even relevant to the issue; eg. some people >think that UV reflectance or lack thereof has taxonomic value while others >do not think that way. Adam Porter (1989 Am. Nat.) published on his look at >the arizonensis/weidemeyerii contact in New Mexico. Hybrids of these >apparently exist but on the basis of electrophoretic comparison of 19 >presumptive loci he concluded that these taxa are fully reproductively >isolated. The perhaps shocking conclusion that I came to after looking at >Limenitis literature is that arizonensis has no business being placed as a >ssp of arthemis/astyanax and should be treated as a full species.. Porter >even mentions this in his paper. I agree, based on my studies of *astyanax* in Central Texas, and nearly to the Rio Grande (Sycamore Creek), and on my studies of *arizonensis* in The Davis Mts, of Texas, Animas Mts. of New Mexico and in E Arizona, and on my studies of *arizonensis* subsp. in the Serranias del Burros of Coahuila and on the SMO of Nuevo Leon, SE Coahuila and W Tamaulipas. I think this Mexican supspecies has picked up the underside red flush through ongoing low level introgression with *obsoleta hoffmanni*. >Further the history of treating arthemis >and astyanax as conspecific may come to an end eventually. See for example >the work of Waldbauer et al in Can. J. Zool. 1988. It was not that many >years ago when everyone blindly accepted Papilio canadensis and Papilio >glaucus as one species on the basis of a perceived 'blending' zone. If we >accepted hybrids as proof of conspecific status then many species of ducks >and geese would disappear from our bird lists :-) I personally have no >problem with good species hybridizing in narrow/relatively narrow contact >zones. Hey, Colias philodice and euytheme are alleged to do this over much >of their range :-) Yes just like *arthemis* and *astyanax* the blending occurs in the most disturbed part of their range contact. Farther west where both species meet in the wild, they do not seem to be as prone to hybridize. I suspect that when the Allegheny/Appalachian forest was in all its pre-Columbian glory neither pair of species met each other in the East. ........... >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. >Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management >845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 >Phone 250-365-8610 >Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca >http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mazzeip at tin.it Fri Sep 7 04:40:24 2001 From: mazzeip at tin.it (Paolo Mazzei) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:40:24 +0100 Subject: Unidentified chrysalis Message-ID: <000601c13778$beb4d5d0$0b00000a@01.DYN_DOMAIN> Yes, many chrysalids are gold: here are chrysalids of Painted Lady, Vanessa cardui (the first one) and of Red Admiral, Vanessa atalanta from my web site: Paolo Mazzei mailto:mazzeip at tin.it Webmaster of "Moths and Butterflies of Europe" http://digilander.iol.it/leps/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/51c35a41/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/51c35a41/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 9959 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/51c35a41/attachment-0001.jpe From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 7 04:21:48 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:21:48 -0400 Subject: Species II Message-ID: <010701c13776$23b7c800$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> In what ever I end up saying below my main focus is how the various calssifications, human perspecitves, realities, whatever - relate specifically to Lepidoptera. James Adams wrote: But a child being able to recognize an arthropod, mammal, primate, or cat does not make the taxa we call "phyla", "class", "order" or "family" any more non-subjective. Children are very keen observers. A small child's recognition of the above as different establishes the profundity of their observation - though they don't understand it and can thus not even explain it. The broad wisdom in their recognition does make the reality of what they observed more non-subjective (less subjective). What they observe and comment on without knowning the ramifications, is that living things really are existant is very different groups or levels of relationship. Don't try to analyze to death the child and his statement*(footnote) - just appreciate the profound reality of their _observation_. All living things are clearly manifest as being in related groups of greater or lesser complexity. Even a 10 year old can see that. Thus, adult humans who are engaged in systematic taxonomy are not just "making things up" or creating "arbitrary" ranks or groups or species etc. Nature exists within a highly refined interrelated and interactive structure. There is nothing arbitrary about IT. We talk of the theory of evoultion - one day we will uncover and put down on paper the Laws of Evolution. At the same time the simple observaion does not diminish any of the enormous complexity that can only be recognized by an adult mind engaged in uncoverng the parameters of such relationships and groups. This is the view of the Elephant James was referring to. He is correct of course in that our adult explanitons are very subjective. But why? Because we are studying something inherently chaotic? No. The word subjective means - subject to. Things are so subjective to us and in or communications simply because our observations, detections, etc. are subject to the fact that we still know so little about it - THEM. For us here the them are butterflies and moths (and what ever else we may later call or not call them = determine them to actually be). The wind blows! is a child's Fact. Where does it come from? is something a professional adult gets paid to surmise about. Just because we do not know where it came from does not mean it is not blowing. Just because _we_ can not professionally and precisely delineate genera or subgenera, species or subspecies does not mean they in fact do not exist in precisely layered ranks and within well defined parameters in nature. How does one accurately - according to the reality of nature - define a butterfly species? Well, I guess we are all still waiting for the human who actually knows to step up to the microphone. Klots and many others have done this to this extent. They sexually reproduce their own kind - and not another - when left alone in their natural environment. Hybrids don't count (factor in). Ron *(footnote) This will sound like a change of subject, but I want to point something out. The cultural mind of Western humanity is programmed from birth to "think" is various ways that are quite different from the Eastern or Far Eastern cultural mind. I surely can not get into all of this, but for example. To the Eastern mind a thing of beauty is simply acknowledge as such - not only is no explanation based on analyzation of the beauty sought - none is even wanted. To the Western mind we have to define it. Actually, insist that the Easterner not just tell us "she is beautiful" to also tell us why. American's are the worst at this. Which is why most in the US eat to live - unlike those in say Greece who live to eat. This is also why American men are historically poor lovers. When the woman partner says "do" or "don't" the American male without fail will not respond in doing or not doing but in asking "why?" This is why American women learn as little girls to not ask men anything as they will usually not get cooperation just interrogation. It is also why so many American women are so domineering and unsubmissive.Where are you going? What are you doing? Why do you ask? We are a nation of know it alls which is why more often than not Americans condescendingly look down on the rest of the world. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From 1_iron at msn.com Fri Sep 7 04:40:10 2001 From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:40:10 -0400 Subject: Definition of "species" Message-ID: <00cc01c13778$b61c5d80$e5890a3f@1swch01> Folks: I am somewhat aghast at the responses to what I consider a simple question. Mathematics, for example, begins with definitions - and progresses no further until each definition is set in stone. "A point is that which has no parts." begins Euclid, and goes on to define lines and the like. Upon these definitions are built an elegant structure. Why should the science of Biology be any different? I can understand the filing of similar species in genera folders, similar genera into families, etc., as an attempt to understand kinships about which reasonable people might disagree. However, the basic (and as I requested, black-and-white) definition of "species" MUST be something all can agree - or we are not talking about the same thing. Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be defined by fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a subspecies. How can there be under the above definition? And I shall go on in my ignorance and isolation enjoying my moths. Jim Taylor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/17fc5c47/attachment.html From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 7 05:44:55 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:44:55 -0400 Subject: Definition of "species" References: <00cc01c13778$b61c5d80$e5890a3f@1swch01> Message-ID: <012f01c13781$c099d360$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: 1_iron To: Leps-L Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:40 AM Subject: Definition of "species" Snips of some good stuff. Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be defined by fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a subspecies. How can there be under the above definition? ____________________________ Jim, you have hit a clear note. Precisely. It is the lack of a clear understanding of what a species is - that prevents some from having a clue to what subspecies are. The first thing is that there is nothing "sub" about them. Actually, they are just the opposite. They are that "new" part of the species that is going up to the next reproductively isolated step on the ladder toward becoming another species. No new species has ever come into its own without first being a "sub" (new part) of something else. This is the third Law of Evolution. "To come into being an organism must first exist as part of something else. This something else must be a stabilized replicating entity. The advancing part becomes the new organism." Don't even ask what Ron's first Law of Evolution is. Most won't even want to hear it as they would probably get upset by it. This law would then apply to single organisms or groups of them. One individual or group replicating after its kind gives rise to another individual or group(s) replicating after its(their) kind. This also means that all living things exist as either past parental parts (subs) or advancing parts (subs) of the entire biota. Ron There are only three Laws of Evolution. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/5a59721e/attachment.html From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Fri Sep 7 05:23:25 2001 From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:23:25 -0300 Subject: golden chryslid Message-ID: <003601c1377e$bf68adc0$04f3b18e@oehlke> There is nice pic of three Nymphalis milberti pupae at http://www3.pei.sympatico.ca/david.fraser They are a shiny gold colour and look like little real gold. They might be your mystery find. If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites. Thankyou! Bill Oehlke Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0 http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Phone: 902-838-3455 fax: 902-838-0866 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/2662a4f7/attachment.html From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Fri Sep 7 08:24:59 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:24:59 -0400 Subject: The Limenitis question Message-ID: See comment below. > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris J. Durden [SMTP:drdn at mail.utexas.edu] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:02 AM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: The Limenitis question > > Norbert, > I think you are on the right track. > .........Chris Durden > See notes below - > > At 02:17 PM 9/6/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >Alex raises some questions on Limenitis: > >"As far as the Limenitis are concerned, it may very well be that the > entire > >arthemis/rubrofasciata/astyannax/weidemeyerii/lorquini complex is in > fact > >conspecific since they all freely hybridize in their contact zones and > >produce fertile offspring. Their ranges fit one another quite nicely. > >Structurally they are nearly similar, are they not? Archippus does > hybridize > >with astyannax in the Mississippi Valley at least, but apparently > produces > >only sterile male offspring, and also does rarely hybridizes with > arthemis. > >It is obviously very closely related to them. What about arizonensis? Is > >there any known hybridization with either weidemeyerii or archippus? What > is > >its true relationship with astyannax? This whole group seems to be in a > very > >fluid and ongoing continuous evolutionary state. There is obviously > genetic > >transfer between all of them." > >My comments: > >This is a really fascinating example which unlike most butterflies has > had a > >good deal of research and we have some data. But everything is still open > to > >how one defines a species and how one interprets that data and whether or > >not one accepts that the data is even relevant to the issue; eg. some > people > >think that UV reflectance or lack thereof has taxonomic value while > others > >do not think that way. Adam Porter (1989 Am. Nat.) published on his look > at > >the arizonensis/weidemeyerii contact in New Mexico. Hybrids of these > >apparently exist but on the basis of electrophoretic comparison of 19 > >presumptive loci he concluded that these taxa are fully reproductively > >isolated. The perhaps shocking conclusion that I came to after looking at > >Limenitis literature is that arizonensis has no business being placed as > a > >ssp of arthemis/astyanax and should be treated as a full species.. Porter > >even mentions this in his paper. > > I agree, based on my studies of *astyanax* in Central Texas, and nearly to > > the Rio Grande (Sycamore Creek), and on my studies of *arizonensis* in The > > Davis Mts, of Texas, Animas Mts. of New Mexico and in E Arizona, and on my > > studies of *arizonensis* subsp. in the Serranias del Burros of Coahuila > and > on the SMO of Nuevo Leon, SE Coahuila and W Tamaulipas. I think this > Mexican supspecies has picked up the underside red flush through ongoing > low level introgression with *obsoleta hoffmanni*. > > > >Further the history of treating arthemis > >and astyanax as conspecific may come to an end eventually. See for > example > >the work of Waldbauer et al in Can. J. Zool. 1988. It was not that many > >years ago when everyone blindly accepted Papilio canadensis and Papilio > >glaucus as one species on the basis of a perceived 'blending' zone. If we > >accepted hybrids as proof of conspecific status then many species of > ducks > >and geese would disappear from our bird lists :-) I personally have no > >problem with good species hybridizing in narrow/relatively narrow contact > >zones. Hey, Colias philodice and euytheme are alleged to do this over > much > >of their range :-) > > Yes just like *arthemis* and *astyanax* the blending occurs in the most > disturbed part of their range contact. Farther west where both species > meet > in the wild, they do not seem to be as prone to hybridize. I suspect that > when the Allegheny/Appalachian forest was in all its pre-Columbian glory > neither pair of species met each other in the East. [AG] This is > exactly what some, including Klots, have written. ........... Although > they do blend in the Upper Midwest. I have good examples in sw Ontario, > Michigan, Wisconsin etc. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > >Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > >845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > >Phone 250-365-8610 > >Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > >http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Fri Sep 7 08:29:01 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:29:01 -0400 Subject: Species II Message-ID: A child most resembles his Creator. The Fathers of the Early Christian Church have written that they believe that an infant is speaking to His Angel (which he or she alone can perceive) when he or she seems to laughing and "cooing" to no one in particular in his (or her) crib. Children perceive the World as it is, they see it in its simple and uncomplicated (howevfer complex) essence. It is the adults that are confused...... > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:22 AM > To: Leps-l > Subject: Species II > > In what ever I end up saying below my main focus is how the various > calssifications, human perspecitves, realities, whatever - relate > specifically to Lepidoptera. > > James Adams wrote: But a child being able to recognize an arthropod, > mammal, primate, or cat does not make the taxa we call "phyla", "class", > "order" or "family" any more non-subjective. > > Children are very keen observers. A small child's recognition of the > above > as different establishes the profundity of their observation - though they > don't understand it and can thus not even explain it. The broad wisdom in > their recognition does make the reality of what they observed more > non-subjective (less subjective). What they observe and comment on without > knowning the ramifications, is that living things really are existant is > very different groups or levels of relationship. > > Don't try to analyze to death the child and his statement*(footnote) - > just > appreciate the profound reality of their _observation_. All living things > are clearly manifest as being in related groups of greater or lesser > complexity. Even a 10 year old can see that. Thus, adult humans who are > engaged in systematic taxonomy are not just "making things up" or creating > "arbitrary" ranks or groups or species etc. Nature exists within a highly > refined interrelated and interactive structure. There is nothing arbitrary > about IT. We talk of the theory of evoultion - one day we will uncover and > put down on paper the Laws of Evolution. > > At the same time the simple observaion does not diminish any of the > enormous complexity that can only be recognized by an adult mind engaged > in > uncoverng the parameters of such relationships and groups. This is the > view > of the Elephant James was referring to. He is correct of course in that > our > adult explanitons are very subjective. But why? Because we are studying > something inherently chaotic? No. The word subjective means - subject to. > Things are so subjective to us and in or communications simply because our > observations, detections, etc. are subject to the fact that we still know > so little about it - THEM. For us here the them are butterflies and moths > (and what ever else we may later call or not call them = determine them to > actually be). > > The wind blows! is a child's Fact. Where does it come from? is something > a > professional adult gets paid to surmise about. Just because we do not know > where it came from does not mean it is not blowing. Just because _we_ can > not professionally and precisely delineate genera or subgenera, species or > subspecies does not mean they in fact do not exist in precisely layered > ranks and within well defined parameters in nature. How does one > accurately - according to the reality of nature - define a butterfly > species? Well, I guess we are all still waiting for the human who > actually > knows to step up to the microphone. Klots and many others have done this > to > this extent. They sexually reproduce their own kind - and not another - > when left alone in their natural environment. Hybrids don't count (factor > in). > Ron > > *(footnote) > This will sound like a change of subject, but I want to point something > out. The cultural mind of Western humanity is programmed from birth to > "think" is various ways that are quite different from the Eastern or Far > Eastern cultural mind. I surely can not get into all of this, but for > example. To the Eastern mind a thing of beauty is simply acknowledge as > such - not only is no explanation based on analyzation of the beauty > sought - none is even wanted. To the Western mind we have to define it. > Actually, insist that the Easterner not just tell us "she is beautiful" to > also tell us why. American's are the worst at this. Which is why most in > the US eat to live - unlike those in say Greece who live to eat. This is > also why American men are historically poor lovers. When the woman partner > says "do" or "don't" the American male without fail will not respond in > doing or not doing but in asking "why?" This is why American women learn > as little girls to not ask men anything as they will usually not get > cooperation just interrogation. It is also why so many American women are > so domineering and unsubmissive.Where are you going? What are you doing? > Why do you ask? We are a nation of know it alls which is why more often > than not Americans condescendingly look down on the rest of the world. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Fri Sep 7 10:11:05 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:11:05 -0400 Subject: Definition of "species" Message-ID: Just a thought: If there are no subspecies, then in fact there is no evolution. And if there is no evolution, there is only a static, dead, dull, and dying world. > -----Original Message----- > From: 1_iron [SMTP:1_iron at msn.com] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:40 AM > To: Leps-L > Subject: Definition of "species" > > Folks: > > I am somewhat aghast at the responses to what I consider a simple > question. > Mathematics, for example, begins with definitions - and progresses no > further until each definition is set in stone. "A point is that which has > no > parts." begins Euclid, and goes on to define lines and the like. Upon > these > definitions are built an elegant structure. Why should the science of > Biology be any different? > > I can understand the filing of similar species in genera folders, similar > genera into families, etc., as an attempt to understand kinships about > which > reasonable people might disagree. However, the basic (and as I requested, > black-and-white) definition of "species" MUST be something all can agree - > or we are not talking about the same thing. > > Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be defined by > fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a subspecies. > How can there be under the above definition? > > And I shall go on in my ignorance and isolation enjoying my moths. > > Jim Taylor > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Fri Sep 7 10:45:36 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:45:36 -0700 Subject: Definition of "species" Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB447@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Fair points. Here are a couple of additional thoughts: - even the most elegant structure, if built on a rotten foundation, will eventually crumble and cease to be useful - Kondla's First Law of Human Behaviour: people will always disagree about everything; some will do so with decorum and respect for other people while some will get obnoxious or even vicious in the process of trying to prove they are right - biology is an infinitely more complex science that mathematics :-) -----Original Message----- From: 1_iron [mailto:1_iron at msn.com] Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:40 AM To: Leps-L Subject: Definition of "species" Folks: I am somewhat aghast at the responses to what I consider a simple question. Mathematics, for example, begins with definitions - and progresses no further until each definition is set in stone. "A point is that which has no parts." begins Euclid, and goes on to define lines and the like. Upon these definitions are built an elegant structure. Why should the science of Biology be any different? I can understand the filing of similar species in genera folders, similar genera into families, etc., as an attempt to understand kinships about which reasonable people might disagree. However, the basic (and as I requested, black-and-white) definition of "species" MUST be something all can agree - or we are not talking about the same thing. Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be defined by fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a subspecies. How can there be under the above definition? And I shall go on in my ignorance and isolation enjoying my moths. Jim Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From droberts03 at snet.net Fri Sep 7 11:57:18 2001 From: droberts03 at snet.net (bill and Dale) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:57:18 -0400 Subject: "Species?" Message-ID: <3B98EE5E.A25FA034@snet.net> Hi all. Before I begin this post I should say that my background is not entomology but rather mycology (fungi) and my ideas about species concepts come from that field. However the discussion has been so good and provocative I wanted to contribute. Since the species thing has gone on so extensively I thought I'd give my humble opinion- The only "real" species is the individual you are holding in your hand that was extracted from a wild population. The species concept is an intellectual corral that we attempt to erect around wild populations that share, 1. A common ancestor. 2. A common gene pool. 3. A high degree of morphological (also chemical, molecular, etc.) similarity 4. The ability to sexually reproduce with others within the corral. Individuals that we extract and examine from within the corral we say belong to "that species." Individuals that we examine that are outside the corral we say belong to "another species". Individuals that are on the fence somewhere we say are "subspecies". Those on the fence may struggle off the fence and wind up outside the corral and then a taxonomists comes along and says "hey this is a new species, I'm going to describe it." The individual on the fence may stubble and fall back inside the corral and get reabsorbed into the wild population there: It does not become a new species or a subspecies. Sometimes a number of individuals on the fence intact sexually only with each other and form a sub specific population, whose weight eventually breaks the fence and they become a new species. Sometimes the corral is so large geographically or the area within the corral is so diverse that the members within the coral look different. This is a cline. Sometimes widely separated corralled populations are determined to be same in terms of the description of the originally described population. They are the same species. Sometimes an individual from outside the corral jumps the fence and can interbreed with the individuals within the corral. This individual may have a genetic trait that is adaptive and that gene may spread through the population to the point where the whole population changes into something that no longer resembles the other populations that were once called the same species. The point of it all is that species, subspecies are constructs that represent the opinion (hopefully based on good science and sound research) of taxonomists about where to erect the conceptual fences that will surround the individuals of a population of naturally occurring sexually compatible individuals that the taxonomist wants to call by a specific Latinized binomial (or trinomial). The fact that the characteristics that serve as the model for this name are based on one individual (the "Type") or a small series of individual sometimes leads to a lot of confusion. If you think that the taxonomy of lepidoptera is sticky take a stab at fungi! Forget about it! Anyway that's my small contribution to this discussion and I'm sure some will disagree but that's all right with me. Bill Yule ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Fri Sep 7 12:12:00 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:12:00 -0500 Subject: Definition of "species" In-Reply-To: <00cc01c13778$b61c5d80$e5890a3f@1swch01> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010907111045.00a79540@mail.utexas.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/5d178147/attachment.html From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Fri Sep 7 12:29:32 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:29:32 -0700 Subject: Remote Boloria Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB44D@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Two Boloria taxa, butleri and arctica, were described from rather remote locations: Cape Thompson, Alaska and Greenland. Study material or even color images are not as widely available as they should be. Some images of these beasties are now available at http://www.norbert.eboard.com The taxonomy of this group of butterflies is in total shambles so you can safely place these taxa wherever you wish and nobody can prove you wrong :-) Thanks to Don Lafontaine for making these images possible. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 7 12:43:06 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:43:06 -0400 Subject: "Species?" References: <3B98EE5E.A25FA034@snet.net> Message-ID: <013f01c137bc$2bb5d240$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Hi. Bill - and all I've been down with a bad sinus headache and am just freeing myself from the grips of that subspecific type of headache - I have rarely encountered its sister subspecies, migraine. :-) Ouch, it still hurts even to smile. Well, this is the first email I have opened in a long list of incoming fire. The last is first. Such a good post I had to send this brief (for me) post saying I like the examples - most of us common country types relate to things like that. They make sense because we can relate. Your last line was. > Anyway that's my small contribution to this discussion and I'm > sure some will disagree but that's all right with me. > Bill Yule We are like a group of people trapped down in a dark mine shaft. Our disagreements, while at times loud and intense, are only for the common good. Our end purpose is the same. All of one's idea will be accepted, half of that persons, only a tiny part of the kids, and most will just be quite and hope the activists will get them out of the darkness too and into the light. But all are necessary for us all to reach the light of day and breather fresh (fungi free) air again. I love all this type of stuff and everyone, especially those who care enough to risk being disagreed with or even yelled at - these are the ones who will reach the top and get everyone else out. After the fact (argument and struggle), in the fresh air, we will all sit down and laugh and realize we have not only been a team -- but become life long friends. Carolina love to ya Bill. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From barb at birdnut.obtuse.com Fri Sep 7 12:54:59 2001 From: barb at birdnut.obtuse.com (Barb Beck) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:54:59 -0600 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB43C@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Norbert for the pages on Pieris and Speyeria. Question to Norbert and others. I can see differences in the butterflies pictured but being a novice cannot differentiate individual variation from variation between the species/subspecies/whatever. The references I have are somewhat confusing. Specifically what field marks are you using to differentiate these butterflies? My question about field marks is not just for my own curiosity but because even with my limited knowledge of these insects I am involved in teaching others how to identify them in the field I fully appreciate that my question is hardest to those of you intimately familiar with these butterflies. You just know the butterfly because it simply looks like that butterfly. You no longer have to think in terms of field marks that beginners must use to get a handle on the butterfly before they can identify the butterfly by "looks". I am struggling hard preparing a learning CD of bird sounds from my recordings for my students. I am unfortunately to the point where a song just sounds like the song of a particular species. My student need pointers to listen for until they reach that level... which they are never going to do if I do not quit looking at butterflies and get the earphones back on so I at least have the first CD cut for them on Monday. Barb Beck Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca -----Original Message----- From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX Sent: September 6, 2001 1:24 PM To: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this season. I have put an image and a request for comments on http://www.norbert.eboard.com under the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of butterflies to deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. The image is large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your mouse to copy the image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes and to see all four specimens in one view. Enjoy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Fri Sep 7 13:07:17 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:07:17 -0700 Subject: Taxonomy and biology Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB450@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Something in the back of my feeble old mind crept to the front and caused me to reflect on taxonomy and nomenclature with the perhaps erroneous recollection that these noble tools were originally invented to facilitate communication among biologists (and everyone else with biological/natural history interests) and to facilitate the study of living organisms. I sometimes think these pursuits have taken on a life of their own and are pursued as an end onto themselves. Perhaps we need to remind ourselves of their "proper" place in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes it is indeed easy to lose sight of the forest because of all the trees :-) I wonder at times if the tail is wagging the dog :-) Blast away with impunity and gusto if you see it differently :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Fri Sep 7 13:17:43 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:17:43 -0400 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris Message-ID: Someone asked me not long ago about how I distinguish a Northern (cocyta) from a Pearl (tharos) Crescent. I gave a brief account of the field marks I use (which I believe to be quite reliable), qualifying my description with 1. The males are much easier than the females, and 2. The field marks are much easier to distinguish in fresher than in worn specimens. But, I should have also pointed out that the field marks of cocyta males "add up to a look", which is exactly the terminology used by Klots to describe the field marks of Boloria freija. So again, sometimes it is better to see the forest rather than the trees, so to speak. Remembering that the "look" is sometimes the key and then learning to recognize it is useful. By the way, has anyone out there seen recently or know of a locality in New England for the Silvery Checkerspot? I last saw one in 1980 in Lewiston, Maine. > -----Original Message----- > From: Barb Beck [SMTP:barb at birdnut.obtuse.com] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 12:55 PM > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > > Thanks Norbert for the pages on Pieris and Speyeria. > > Question to Norbert and others. I can see differences in the butterflies > pictured but being a novice cannot differentiate individual variation from > variation between the species/subspecies/whatever. The references I have > are somewhat confusing. Specifically what field marks are you using to > differentiate these butterflies? > > My question about field marks is not just for my own curiosity but because > even with my limited knowledge of these insects I am involved in teaching > others how to identify them in the field > > I fully appreciate that my question is hardest to those of you intimately > familiar with these butterflies. You just know the butterfly because it > simply looks like that butterfly. You no longer have to think in terms of > field marks that beginners must use to get a handle on the butterfly > before > they can identify the butterfly by "looks". I am struggling hard > preparing > a learning CD of bird sounds from my recordings for my students. I am > unfortunately to the point where a song just sounds like the song of a > particular species. My student need pointers to listen for until they > reach > that level... which they are never going to do if I do not quit looking at > butterflies and get the earphones back on so I at least have the first CD > cut for them on Monday. > > Barb Beck > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On > Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > Sent: September 6, 2001 1:24 PM > To: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans > > > I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this season. I have > put > an image and a request for comments on http://www.norbert.eboard.com under > the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of butterflies to > deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and > interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to > inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. The image is > large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your mouse to copy the > image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes and to see all > four > specimens in one view. Enjoy. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Fri Sep 7 13:54:51 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:54:51 -0700 Subject: Pieris characters Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB451@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> The most distinctive visual differences that I have noted so far are on the ventral hindwing. Definition: veins are the structures in the wings; vein borders are the dark scaling beside the veins. In oleracea I see very narrow and sharply defined brown vein borders that do not differ much in width from the basal to the distal part of the wing. I also see that the location of the actual veins within the dark scaling is frequently visible as a pale line. In angelika I see wider but still sharply defined blackish brown vein borders that narrow dramatically toward the distal part of the wing. I also see that the actual vein location is normally obscured by the dark scaling and not visible. In marginalis I see grayish/greenish vein borders that are wide but diffuse rather than sharply defined. I see that the actual vein location is visible and not obscured by dark scaling. There are of course other visible characters that eventually need to be committed to words. I think there are some wing shape differences but need to look at this more closely before venturing further down that path. Regrettably none of what I said above will help with the summer broods of oleracea and marginalis with their white (or yellow in flava forms) ventral hindwings and no vein borders. We will have to resort to other identification characters once we figure out what they are. People living in the Colorado/New Mexico area should be actively looking for and documenting some evidence that Pieris mogollon does or does not blend into Pieris marginalis. There is no evidence at the moment that I am aware of. It was pointed out in the literature 40 years ago that there is a structural difference in the androconial scales of mogollon vs napi so it would certainly be interesting for someone to compare the androconial scales of mogollon and the neighboring 'marginalis' populations. Maybe these two even fly sympatrically somewhere. Unfortunately we have a history of people seeing such phenomena and dismissing them as blend zones without really researching the question. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From barb at birdnut.obtuse.com Fri Sep 7 14:33:56 2001 From: barb at birdnut.obtuse.com (Barb Beck) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:33:56 -0600 Subject: BUGS: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alex, The "LOOK" is the IMPORTANT key to identifying it. But to gain the "look" you must first know precisely what you are dealing with and how to look at it. Sorry about the birding example but that is my forte. I know instantly the identity of a Hairy or Downy Woodpecker that I see. Students see two very similar birds. By giving them the handle that the bill of one is (I think) half the length of the head and that of the other is 3/4 the length of the head - I always have to check these numbers with a picture before that class. The students have something concrete with which they can correctly identify the bird when encountered and start to build their knowledge of the look. It makes it so that when the classic field mark is obscured you still know what you are looking at. My silly answer when faced with a photo of a bird or one in hand which has the classic field marks obscured is that I know what it is by the way it smells because I do not honestly see what part of the "look" I am using. I usually have to stew on the problem for some time until I think see how I am differentiating it from similar species. Field marks are not easy things to work out. Birders have been at it for years and years and still with the publication of the latest field guide many new good marks have been introduced. When the Dowitchers were split many long time birders thought that there was no way to differentiate them in the field or in hand. Now there are excellent field marks developed to not only differentiate the species but the subspecies of these birds. Barb Beck Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca -----Original Message----- From: owner-albertabugs at majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca [mailto:owner-albertabugs at majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca]On Behalf Of Grkovich, Alex Sent: September 7, 2001 11:18 AM To: 'barb at birdnut.obtuse.com'; Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' Subject: BUGS: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris Someone asked me not long ago about how I distinguish a Northern (cocyta) from a Pearl (tharos) Crescent. I gave a brief account of the field marks I use (which I believe to be quite reliable), qualifying my description with 1. The males are much easier than the females, and 2. The field marks are much easier to distinguish in fresher than in worn specimens. But, I should have also pointed out that the field marks of cocyta males "add up to a look", which is exactly the terminology used by Klots to describe the field marks of Boloria freija. So again, sometimes it is better to see the forest rather than the trees, so to speak. Remembering that the "look" is sometimes the key and then learning to recognize it is useful. By the way, has anyone out there seen recently or know of a locality in New England for the Silvery Checkerspot? I last saw one in 1980 in Lewiston, Maine. > -----Original Message----- > From: Barb Beck [SMTP:barb at birdnut.obtuse.com] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 12:55 PM > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > > Thanks Norbert for the pages on Pieris and Speyeria. > > Question to Norbert and others. I can see differences in the butterflies > pictured but being a novice cannot differentiate individual variation from > variation between the species/subspecies/whatever. The references I have > are somewhat confusing. Specifically what field marks are you using to > differentiate these butterflies? > > My question about field marks is not just for my own curiosity but because > even with my limited knowledge of these insects I am involved in teaching > others how to identify them in the field > > I fully appreciate that my question is hardest to those of you intimately > familiar with these butterflies. You just know the butterfly because it > simply looks like that butterfly. You no longer have to think in terms of > field marks that beginners must use to get a handle on the butterfly > before > they can identify the butterfly by "looks". I am struggling hard > preparing > a learning CD of bird sounds from my recordings for my students. I am > unfortunately to the point where a song just sounds like the song of a > particular species. My student need pointers to listen for until they > reach > that level... which they are never going to do if I do not quit looking at > butterflies and get the earphones back on so I at least have the first CD > cut for them on Monday. > > Barb Beck > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On > Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > Sent: September 6, 2001 1:24 PM > To: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans > > > I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this season. I have > put > an image and a request for comments on http://www.norbert.eboard.com under > the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of butterflies to > deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and > interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to > inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. The image is > large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your mouse to copy the > image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes and to see all > four > specimens in one view. Enjoy. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From barb at birdnut.obtuse.com Fri Sep 7 14:58:10 2001 From: barb at birdnut.obtuse.com (Barb Beck) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:58:10 -0600 Subject: Pieris characters In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB451@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: Norbert, Thank you very much for letting me pick your brain again. I see the differences you are referring to and will try my best to pass them on correctly. Barb -----Original Message----- From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX Sent: September 7, 2001 11:55 AM To: 'Barb'; 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' Subject: Pieris characters The most distinctive visual differences that I have noted so far are on the ventral hindwing. Definition: veins are the structures in the wings; vein borders are the dark scaling beside the veins. In oleracea I see very narrow and sharply defined brown vein borders that do not differ much in width from the basal to the distal part of the wing. I also see that the location of the actual veins within the dark scaling is frequently visible as a pale line. In angelika I see wider but still sharply defined blackish brown vein borders that narrow dramatically toward the distal part of the wing. I also see that the actual vein location is normally obscured by the dark scaling and not visible. In marginalis I see grayish/greenish vein borders that are wide but diffuse rather than sharply defined. I see that the actual vein location is visible and not obscured by dark scaling. There are of course other visible characters that eventually need to be committed to words. I think there are some wing shape differences but need to look at this more closely before venturing further down that path. Regrettably none of what I said above will help with the summer broods of oleracea and marginalis with their white (or yellow in flava forms) ventral hindwings and no vein borders. We will have to resort to other identification characters once we figure out what they are. People living in the Colorado/New Mexico area should be actively looking for and documenting some evidence that Pieris mogollon does or does not blend into Pieris marginalis. There is no evidence at the moment that I am aware of. It was pointed out in the literature 40 years ago that there is a structural difference in the androconial scales of mogollon vs napi so it would certainly be interesting for someone to compare the androconial scales of mogollon and the neighboring 'marginalis' populations. Maybe these two even fly sympatrically somewhere. Unfortunately we have a history of people seeing such phenomena and dismissing them as blend zones without really researching the question. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 7 16:02:45 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris References: Message-ID: <017a01c137d8$0fe64f60$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Norbert's stuff is so good we are going to include it as a regular reference on our TILS website links page. While I have ya all, I am going to get with Joe to find out why the hesseli hesseli and hesseli angulata photos have not yet been posted in our Photos section. I will try to get them him to put them up tonight or tomorrow. Ron. http://www.tils-ttr.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barb Beck" To: ; "'lepsl'" ; "'altabugs'" Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > Thanks Norbert for the pages on Pieris and Speyeria. > > Question to Norbert and others. I can see differences in the butterflies > pictured but being a novice cannot differentiate individual variation from > variation between the species/subspecies/whatever. The references I have > are somewhat confusing. Specifically what field marks are you using to > differentiate these butterflies? > > My question about field marks is not just for my own curiosity but because > even with my limited knowledge of these insects I am involved in teaching > others how to identify them in the field > > I fully appreciate that my question is hardest to those of you intimately > familiar with these butterflies. You just know the butterfly because it > simply looks like that butterfly. You no longer have to think in terms of > field marks that beginners must use to get a handle on the butterfly before > they can identify the butterfly by "looks". I am struggling hard preparing > a learning CD of bird sounds from my recordings for my students. I am > unfortunately to the point where a song just sounds like the song of a > particular species. My student need pointers to listen for until they reach > that level... which they are never going to do if I do not quit looking at > butterflies and get the earphones back on so I at least have the first CD > cut for them on Monday. > > Barb Beck > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On > Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > Sent: September 6, 2001 1:24 PM > To: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans > > > I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this season. I have put > an image and a request for comments on http://www.norbert.eboard.com under > the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of butterflies to > deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and > interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to > inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. The image is > large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your mouse to copy the > image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes and to see all four > specimens in one view. Enjoy. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rcmelvin at ~nospam~oxfordaerospace.com Fri Sep 7 15:27:51 2001 From: rcmelvin at ~nospam~oxfordaerospace.com (R Melvin) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:27:51 GMT Subject: ID Please Message-ID: ID Please: This little fellow was found Sept 8th in North Central Mississippi. Sorry for the poor picture, but I only had a disposable digital with me. He's a bit over 10cm long and as girthy as your index finger. Very precise, eh? He has uniformly distributed clusters of tiny cilia across his back and sides. He has an inverted "V" on his posterior which is gray in color. Thanks in advance! Russ begin 666 cat.jpg M_]C_X `02D9)1@`!`0```0`!``#_VP!#``$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$! M`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0'_ MVP!#`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$! M`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0$!`0'_P `1" '@`H #`2(``A$!`Q$!_\0` M'P```04!`0$!`0$```````````$"`P0%!@<("0H+_\0`M1 ``@$#`P($`P4% M! 0```%]`0(#``01!1(A,4$&$U%A!R)Q%#*!D:$((T*QP152T? D,V)R@@D* M%A<8&1HE)B7J#A(6&AXB)BI*3E)66EYB9FJ*CI*6FIZBIJK*SM+6VM[BYNL+#Q,7& MQ\C)RM+3U-76U]C9VN'BX^3EYN?HZ>KQ\O/T]?;W^/GZ_\0`'P$``P$!`0$! 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Where I live on the flat prairie they put zigs in the roads going straight north/south. We call them correction lines. You see, the Earth is curved and roads that would go endlessly in straight lines don't work. And then there is the airplane. Plot a direct course from here to there when going east/west - but don't forget about the horizon. It even gets more peculiar in outer space. I am told that parallel lines meet there. (Unfortunately, this is not from personal experience.) Even, today, centuries after mathematics came up with the concept of zero, we routinely use number systems that do not accurately measure where zero is. The daily weather report giving the temperature in Fahrenheit(only in America) or Celius uses a zero point that ain't zero. And then there is non-parametric statistics used to measure the variability in human attitude. Plato may have thought that he could sit on the ideal chair, but that probably was because his student Aristotle - the biologist - fed him one of those mushrooms which are best taken in small doses. Euclidean geometry is just one of many models to help us describe and better understand the world we walk on. Successful mathematical models are no different than biological constructs, they are conceived and made to adapt to changing environmental conditions. Martin Bailey, where on a clear day you can see 32 miles to the horizon. --- Original Message ----- From: Chris J. Durden To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:12 AM Subject: Re: Definition of "species" Sure. And the Cosmological "Constant" is constant! ..............Chris Durden At 04:40 AM 9/7/2001 -0400, you wrote: Folks: I am somewhat aghast at the responses to what I consider a simple question. Mathematics, for example, begins with definitions - and progresses no further until each definition is set in stone. "A point is that which has no parts." begins Euclid, and goes on to define lines and the like. Upon these definitions are built an elegant structure. Why should the science of Biology be any different? I can understand the filing of similar species in genera folders, similar genera into families, etc., as an attempt to understand kinships about which reasonable people might disagree. However, the basic (and as I requested, black-and-white) definition of "species" MUST be something all can agree - or we are not talking about the same thing. Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be defined by fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a subspecies. How can there be under the above definition? And I shall go on in my ignorance and isolation enjoying my moths. Jim Taylor ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/bb957c26/attachment.html From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Fri Sep 7 18:10:26 2001 From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:10:26 -0300 Subject: R Melvin ID Please Message-ID: <004301c137e9$e5f179c0$04f3b18e@oehlke> Russ, The caterpillar is Antheraea polyphemus. Pics and info at http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites. Thankyou! Bill Oehlke Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0 http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Phone: 902-838-3455 fax: 902-838-0866 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/97507b53/attachment.html From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Fri Sep 7 18:13:20 2001 From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:13:20 -0300 Subject: ID Please: Antheraea polyphemus Message-ID: <002901c137ea$4de34720$04f3b18e@oehlke> Russ wrote: ID Please: This little fellow was found Sept 8th in North Central Mississippi. Sorry for the poor picture, but I only had a disposable digital with me. He's a bit over 10cm long and as girthy as your index finger. Very precise, eh? He has uniformly distributed clusters of tiny cilia across his back and sides. He has an inverted "V" on his posterior which is gray in color. That is an Antheraea polyphemus caterpillar. Pics and info at http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites. Thankyou! Bill Oehlke Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0 http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew oehlkew at islandtelecom.com Phone: 902-838-3455 fax: 902-838-0866 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010907/a25db333/attachment.html From TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us Fri Sep 7 19:56:16 2001 From: TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us (Tiser, Gene M) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:56:16 -0500 Subject: Definition of "species" Message-ID: <93262E125E75D5119EC60003476BEAD80AD190@GREENBAYML00> First, thank you , thank you, thank you for a wonderful and enlightening discussion - I have enjoyed the points and counter-points enormously! Regarding the comments about math, I believe there is a math format which is enlightening in this discussion. That is the relatively new Chaos theory. To simplify part of the chaos theory to an extreme (a must since I am NOT a mathematician!) - any straight line border only looks that way from a distance. The closer you inspect it, the more variations and deviations you find in the edge. If you print this line ____________ it will look straight and precise. But look at it under a microscope and the edge looks much different due to variations in the paper fibers as well as the way the ink was sprayed on the paper. I think the same rule applies to taxonomy - Ron's child looked at big groups of things and saw clear, precise lines (boundaries). However, when we examine the things closely, we begin to see the little minute differences that were not apparent at first (swims in the water it is a fish, wait, what about whales and dolphins). Thus, the layman may not see two butterfly species where the expert might see a clear cut difference (or not!). That we devise systems to tell them apart would not matter to the butterflies one iota - they go on their merry way reproducing and producing new variants that either survive or die. So, chaos theory tells us that we can not devise a system that will perfectly define all situations and groupings - there will always be that imperfect edge that will defy us! As I like to tell my staff - the first rule of biology appears to be: There is an exception to every rule, including this one! { ;>) Thus, we need to be flexible in any system or definition that we mere humans devise! Hope this makes sense and is not too much rambling for late on a Friday that finds me still in the office! Feel free to flame away - I have a three day weekend and will not know until I come back on Tuesday! Hope you all have a good weekend yourselves! Gene Tiser Education Coordinator NE Region Hdqtrs PO Box 10448 1125 N. Military Ave. Green Bay, WI 54307-0448 phone: (920) 492-5836 fax: (920) 492-5913 tiserg at dnr.state.wi.us > ---------- > From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX[SMTP:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca] > Reply To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:45 AM > To: '1_iron at msn.com'; Leps-L > Subject: RE: Definition of "species" > > Fair points. Here are a couple of additional thoughts: > - even the most elegant structure, if built on a rotten foundation, will > eventually crumble and cease to be useful > - Kondla's First Law of Human Behaviour: people will always disagree about > everything; some will do so with decorum and respect for other people > while > some will get obnoxious or even vicious in the process of trying to prove > they are right > - biology is an infinitely more complex science that mathematics :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: 1_iron [mailto:1_iron at msn.com] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 1:40 AM > To: Leps-L > Subject: Definition of "species" > > > Folks: > > I am somewhat aghast at the responses to what I consider a simple > question. > Mathematics, for example, begins with definitions - and progresses no > further until each definition is set in stone. "A point is that which has > no > parts." begins Euclid, and goes on to define lines and the like. Upon > these > definitions are built an elegant structure. Why should the science of > Biology be any different? > > I can understand the filing of similar species in genera folders, similar > genera into families, etc., as an attempt to understand kinships about > which > reasonable people might disagree. However, the basic (and as I requested, > black-and-white) definition of "species" MUST be something all can agree - > or we are not talking about the same thing. > > Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be defined by > fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a subspecies. > How can there be under the above definition? > > And I shall go on in my ignorance and isolation enjoying my moths. > > Jim Taylor > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mbpi at juno.com Fri Sep 7 20:57:17 2001 From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:57:17 -0500 Subject: Fw: Re: Definition of "species" Message-ID: <20010907.195732.-196427.3.mbpi@juno.com> Drat! I always mean to send my comments to the list, but I send them to the individual instead... (I know Ron can take it...) M.B.P. --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: To: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:45:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Definition of "species" Message-ID: <20010907.194653.-196427.1.mbpi at juno.com> It's all very simple and clear to me: "Species" is an arbitrary "common name" applied to a number of individuals with shared characteristics. It really doesn't matter what those shared characteristics are: the definition can change with the perception, study and research of the person(s) equating it. Hence all the disaggreements :-) Mary Beth Prondzinski USA On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:44:55 -0400 "Ron Gatrelle" writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: 1_iron > To: Leps-L > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:40 AM > Subject: Definition of "species" > > Snips of some good stuff. > > Until you get your act together, I shall deem a species to be > defined by > fertile offspring, and I shall deny there is such a thing as a > subspecies. > How can there be under the above definition? > ____________________________ > > Jim, you have hit a clear note. Precisely. It is the lack of a > clear understanding of what a species is - that prevents some from > having a clue to what subspecies are. The first thing is that there > is nothing "sub" about them. Actually, they are just the opposite. > They are that "new" part of the species that is going up to the next > reproductively isolated step on the ladder toward becoming another > species. No new species has ever come into its own without first > being a "sub" (new part) of something else. > > This is the third Law of Evolution. "To come into being an > organism must first exist as part of something else. This something > else must be a stabilized replicating entity. The advancing part > becomes the new organism." Don't even ask what Ron's first Law of > Evolution is. Most won't even want to hear it as they would probably > get upset by it. This law would then apply to single organisms or > groups of them. One individual or group replicating after its kind > gives rise to another individual or group(s) replicating after > its(their) kind. This also means that all living things exist as > either past parental parts (subs) or advancing parts (subs) of the > entire biota. > Ron > > There are only three Laws of Evolution. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From xiwang at sprint.ca Fri Sep 7 19:44:18 2001 From: xiwang at sprint.ca (Xi Wang) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:44:18 -0400 Subject: Unidentified chrysalis References: <3B96C591.2731@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3B995BD2.A56@sprint.ca> Well, I have some bad news. It was parasitized. I took a chance and cut it open cuz it felt very light, and the pupal skin was unusually flexible, and in it was a developing wasp which I immediately killed. I suppose in retrospect I should've kept it and such, but well, hindsight is 20/20. On the other hand, I was able to find 4 larvae later amongst the Cirsium spp.. Peace, Xi Wang ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From asmodean2501 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 21:34:38 2001 From: asmodean2501 at yahoo.com (Discord) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:34:38 -0400 Subject: Polyphemus die off... Message-ID: It has been about two weeks since the original 46 caterpillars hatched. I estimate I am down to a 1/4 of the original population. Is this normal? Adrian Wright ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From penkite at kenkraft.freeserve.co.uk Fri Sep 7 20:02:25 2001 From: penkite at kenkraft.freeserve.co.uk (ken perry) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:02:25 +0100 Subject: Elephant hawks head moth Message-ID: <9nbmro$iiv$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> Hi All My daughter has recently been given 2ehhm's.....desperate for some info. Food? How long before the pupate? Where is it best for them to pupate-twig/soil medium? Where to keep them over winter-inside,outside? Any special needs? Any suggestions appreciated. Looking foward in anticipation to your replies. Ken Perry ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Fri Sep 7 23:02:42 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:02:42 -0400 Subject: BIOLOGY is too complex for some Message-ID: <3B998A52.8646FCF1@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Norbert wrote: - biology is an infinitely more complex science that mathematics :-) In college, while we were deciding on our major, we were advised to consider a larger picture of how comfortable we were with uncertainty. We were told that people often switched from biology to chemistry, where things seemed more predictable. Some switched into physics, where they were so proud of their laws. Those still troubled by imperfections such as "chance" became mathematicians, while others went on to theology (Oberlin had a theological seminary in those days). It was perhaps not a coincidence that two of the physics faculty were also ministers while none of the biologists were (small sample size, to be sure). Mike Gochfeld ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 7 23:32:42 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:32:42 -0400 Subject: Species specifics exercise 1 Message-ID: <003001c13816$ebae7700$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> A few days ago I noted that all our discussion is conceptual and no actual examples. All theories - a verbal contest, no specific application - a test. Feniseca (the Harvester genus). Is that a human idea? The word is a human construct, but what about what its finger points to? Does this group exist only on paper because we built a nomenclatorial fence around it? Or, is it a real thing in nature and our "name" is but a human acknowledgment of the obvious? Is this thing we call a genus artificial - not real (that is what artificial means) or is it self evident and as such very real? Exceptions are real too, but they do not disprove rules. Intellectual, moral and other grays are disturbing and elusive, but they never cancel out black and white. Our material universe is very real and operates in a great order. We call these laws - because that is what they are. Fight them and it may cost you your life. Every new college freshman class is ripe and ready to reinvent the wheel and easy prey for those professors - theologians to mathematicians to biologists - who want to wash out anything that was parental or older. (Plenty of theologians believe with utter plasticity in nothing, and plenty of biologists believe rigidly in something - evolution, caldistics, genetics). Forget the Paramidea etc.counter points. Let's decide - is Feniscea a butterfly _genus_ or not? First, we have to go with the orthodox definition of a _genus_. The term genus refers to and acknowledges that one or more species is - in its current (time and space) state of being - unique from all other species or groups of species. This is not an artificial construct of man (humanity) - it is Man communicating to Man an actuality based on real life observation of a naturally occurring distinct entity. Ron ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From babilon at ucla.edu Fri Sep 7 23:30:54 2001 From: babilon at ucla.edu (Philip Walsh) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:30:54 -0700 Subject: Seeking info re. insect cage from 60's/70's Message-ID: <3B9990ED.95F42C3C@ucla.edu> This may be a bit off topic, but I figure that someone in this newsgroup will know what I'm talking about here. I'm looking for an insect cage made in the 60's or 70's. It had a clever design: it had a wide mouth and body, but a narrow neck, so that the insect, once in the body, would have less chance of escaping. I don't know the name of the product or the company that makes it--does anyone have this information, and does anyone have one to sell? ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 8 00:16:37 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:16:37 -0400 Subject: Species III References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB42B@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> <3B96D1C4.C57C2FDF@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <004501c1381d$0e32c5a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Michael Gochfeld wrote: Like Norbert I remain to be convinced that genetic distance (represented as percent) means the same thing in different taxa (or for that matter in diffrerent fragments of the same two taxa). Norbert Kondla wrote: Another is what I call the chemical species concept. Looking at the chemistry of selected gene segments is growing increasingly fashionable. Certainly gene chemistry, like genitalia, can provide some potentially useful data but there is always room for interpretation. The chemical species concept might argue that two butterflies with, for example, less than 3% difference in gene chemistry are the same species. Extending this logic to mammals would result in chimpanzies and humans being declared the same species. I have some difficulty accepting that there is some magic level of similarity in gene chemistry that defines what is or is not a species. ___________ Pterourus rutulus and P. eurymedon have the same mtDNA sequence. Yet they are obviously sympatric (co-occurring) species. This tells me that mtDNA analysis is just about worthless relative to these two species. It has recently been determined that Phyciodes batesii batesii and P. b. maconensis are "very different" in their mtDNA. Yet this does not yet release one to say that batesii batesii and maconensis are in fact two species. How many variables are there just like and in-between these extremes that _have_ been put forth to us as the Holy Grail final word on if X is a species or subspecies? Quite a bit I bet. What is going to happen when someone accidentally puts two chemically identical (or almost so) critters that live a long way from each other - and by chemical analysis have been "proven" to be the "same" species - together and finds they will not mate and if they are coerced to do not produce viable offspring? And what will be the explanation when the two very genetically different "species" that live a long way apart are for some reason put together and it is found that they mate and produce offspring like Gypsy moths? Genetics is not the all and all answer all at the specific and subspecific level. We already know that genitalia are not the magic bullet either. In some genera all the genitalia are basically the same. In some they vary with the subspecific morphology. There are likely differing reasons that Kondla, Gochfeld and Gatrelle all have a lack of total faith in what Norbert called the "chemical species concept." Perhaps others need to not just automatically swallow the whole hook, line and sinker of those who so elevate this area/means of analysis as the arrival point of taxonomic detecting and systematic discernment. With this area of argument I say there is lots of subjectivity. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 8 01:44:39 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:44:39 -0400 Subject: Species specifics exercise 2 Message-ID: <006401c13829$59f927c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Is Polites baracoa baracoa a species? If so, why? If not, why not? Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Sat Sep 8 02:50:41 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 01:50:41 -0500 Subject: Taxonomy and biology In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB450@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc .ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010908012048.00a89ec0@mail.utexas.edu> Sometimes I have the impression that the people with the strongest views on what constitutes a species have little hands on experience with many groups of species living together in the wild. I am thinking of a certain lush and knobby forest in central Rondonia where more than 1,800 butterfly species cavort in an area about 10 by 20 k. There each genus and species group presents a different challenge. I am also thinking of my home territory in Travis Co., Texas where more than 180 butterfly species cavort in a slightly larger area. I am also thinking of Atkasook on Mead River where nearly 18 species cavort in the millions. The styles of interspecific interactions and within-species variation are different under these three very different ecological regimens. In the high latitude sample there appears to be much more variation expressed within species, sometimes to the extent that one suspects ecotypes or cryptic species are present. The common species are very common and the rare species are very rare. In the low latitude sample the common species are not as common as one would suspect and the rare species are not as rare as one would expect. There appears to be far less within-species variation than found normally at higher latitudes. In the thousands of individuals examined there are almost no extreme variants. In the mid-latitude sample there is a tremendous amount of variation in the populations of most species. Perhaps this is a reflection of recent habitat disruption by changes in land use practises. In the thousands of individuals examined there have been a number of extreme variants seen in several species. Remarkably some of the tropical species that occur here in fall show much more variation than do comparable samples from tropical forest 500 miles to the south. There do appear to be different styles of speciation in different faunas. I interpret this as meaning that there are a number of different ways for an interbreding population of genetic material to fit a niche. I suggest that any species definition should be derived from the process that selects what survives, rather than the mechanics of what is put into the selective process. As good field practice, the habitat should be described along with the individuals of a species. Just as we build up a knowledge of what constitutes an individual species, we can build up a knowledge of what constitutes its niche. I have found that finding what looks like a familiar species in a different niche, is a red flag to look closer at the individual, which often turns out to be a related but different species. ..............Chris Durden At 10:07 AM 9/7/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Something in the back of my feeble old mind crept to the front and caused me >to reflect on taxonomy and nomenclature with the perhaps erroneous >recollection that these noble tools were originally invented to facilitate >communication among biologists (and everyone else with biological/natural >history interests) and to facilitate the study of living organisms. I >sometimes think these pursuits have taken on a life of their own and are >pursued as an end onto themselves. >Perhaps we need to remind ourselves of their "proper" place in the grand >scheme of things. Sometimes it is indeed easy to lose sight of the forest >because of all the trees :-) I wonder at times if the tail is wagging the >dog :-) Blast away with impunity and gusto if you see it differently :-) > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. >Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management >845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 >Phone 250-365-8610 >Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca >http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spm23 at cornell.edu Sat Sep 8 09:49:29 2001 From: spm23 at cornell.edu (Sean Patrick Mullen) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:49:29 -0400 Subject: Papilio disease and rearing challenges Message-ID: Hey Everyone, I need so butterfly rearing expertise. A good friend of mine, Shannon Murphy, is working on Swallowtail butterflies for her dissertation her at Cornell...I'll try to get the exact species name from her. She spent most of the summer in Alaska and Oregon collecting larvae. She kept them successfully all summer in the field but know that they're back in the greenhouse the "2nd generation" has begun to experience really high mortality. Shannon has had this problem before. She believes that it is a disease introduced from her advisor's lab colony of Black Swallowtails that he gets from outside breeders. My question is this: How many of you have faced the issue of disease? and how have you successfully or unsuccessfully tried to overcome it. Shannon's a close friend and I hate watching all her hard work go down the drain like this. Thanks all. -Sean Mullen ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Sat Sep 8 09:48:35 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:48:35 -0400 Subject: Species III References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB42B@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> <3B96D1C4.C57C2FDF@eohsi.rutgers.edu> <004501c1381d$0e32c5a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Message-ID: <3B9A21B3.C8B3E15D@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Ron's examples are great and reassuring to us skeptics. I like to know about how genetic distances are being used, and both of Ron's examples were new to me. At first the principle hinged, as I recall, on the work of Crow and Kimura who postulated neutral mutations (unseen by selection). That generated a lot of discussion about whether there was (or even could be in theory) such a thing. That set off a search for parts of the genome that were in places that couldn't be seen by selection. Mike Gochfeld Ron Gatrelle wrote: > Michael Gochfeld wrote: > Like Norbert I remain to be convinced that genetic distance (represented as > percent) means the same thing in different taxa (or for that matter in > diffrerent fragments of the same two taxa). > > Norbert Kondla wrote: > Another is what I call the chemical species concept. Looking at the > chemistry of selected gene segments is growing increasingly fashionable. > Certainly gene chemistry, like genitalia, can provide some potentially > useful data but there is always room for interpretation. The chemical > species concept might argue that two butterflies with, for example, less > than 3% difference in gene chemistry are the same species. Extending this > logic to mammals would result in chimpanzies and humans being declared the > same species. I have some difficulty accepting that there is some magic > level of similarity in gene chemistry that defines what is or is not a > species. > ___________ > > Pterourus rutulus and P. eurymedon have the same mtDNA sequence. Yet > they > are obviously sympatric (co-occurring) species. This tells me that mtDNA > analysis is just about worthless relative to these two species. It has > recently been determined that Phyciodes batesii batesii and P. b. > maconensis are "very different" in their mtDNA. Yet this does not yet > release one to say that batesii batesii and maconensis are in fact two > species. How many variables are there just like and in-between these > extremes that _have_ been put forth to us as the Holy Grail final word on > if X is a species or subspecies? Quite a bit I bet. > What is going to happen when someone accidentally puts two chemically > identical (or almost so) critters that live a long way from each other - > and by chemical analysis have been "proven" to be the "same" species - > together and finds they will not mate and if they are coerced to do not > produce viable offspring? And what will be the explanation when the two > very genetically different "species" that live a long way apart are for > some reason put together and it is found that they mate and produce > offspring like Gypsy moths? > Genetics is not the all and all answer all at the specific and > subspecific level. > We already know that genitalia are not the magic bullet either. In some > genera all the genitalia are basically the same. In some they vary with the > subspecific morphology. > There are likely differing reasons that Kondla, Gochfeld and Gatrelle > all have a lack of total faith in what Norbert called the "chemical species > concept." Perhaps others need to not just automatically swallow the whole > hook, line and sinker of those who so elevate this area/means of analysis > as the arrival point of taxonomic detecting and systematic discernment. > With this area of argument I say there is lots of subjectivity. > > Ron Gatrelle > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jdillonaire at rcn.com Sat Sep 8 10:47:31 2001 From: jdillonaire at rcn.com (Jane Dillonaire) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:47:31 -0400 Subject: ID Please References: Message-ID: <9ndbhu$12q$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Looks like Antheraea polyphemus to me. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Sat Sep 8 17:55:54 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:55:54 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Species definitions! Message-ID: Mark Walker said: > Ken speaks of the difficulties in successfully separating even > Heterocera and Rhopalocera. Apparently I failed to make the point I was trying to make. I was _not_ concerned with _separating_ those two groups--but with the entire concept of breaking the order into those two groups. The entire thrust of recent higher-level taxonomy has been to say that this breakdown of Lepi- doptera is meaningless. The term 'Heterocera' does not occur in modern checklists/catalogues. 'Rhopalocera' can still be used (if one insists), but only to apply to a portion of the sub-order Ditrysia. Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From doctorkilmer at netscape.net Sat Sep 8 18:13:16 2001 From: doctorkilmer at netscape.net (Mark Etheridge) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:13:16 -0400 Subject: Hornets in my bait traps Message-ID: <0AB54094.3568E0EE.7285CD1F@netscape.net> I've had a few bait traps out here in northern Maryland all summer and have had a persistent problem with white-faced hornets feeding on the bait. If there are only a couple I usually don't worry too much about it, but sometimes there are so many that I am not comfortable approaching the trap (that's usually when there's something particularly good in there, naturally). Has anyone else had this experience? What is the best thing to do? I've tried relocating the traps, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. Any ideas would be appreciated. Mark Etheridge __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Sat Sep 8 19:57:23 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:57:23 -0700 Subject: Seeking info re. insect cage from 60's/70's References: <3B9990ED.95F42C3C@ucla.edu> Message-ID: <3B9AB062.40F19037@mail.mcn.org> Philip: try a mosquito cage, theyre all like that. see bioquip.com Bill Philip Walsh wrote: > This may be a bit off topic, but I figure that someone in this newsgroup > will know what I'm talking about here. I'm looking for an insect cage > made in the 60's or 70's. It had a clever design: it had a wide mouth > and body, but a narrow neck, so that the insect, once in the body, would > have less chance of escaping. I don't know the name of the product or > the company that makes it--does anyone have this information, and does > anyone have one to sell? ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Sat Sep 8 19:52:30 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:52:30 -0700 Subject: Polyphemus die off... References: Message-ID: <3B9AAF3D.89F603C4@mail.mcn.org> --------------53F0C84D6A04333176528961 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian: Nope, it's not normal (in a protected environment). The food may be contaminated by pesticide, fungus, virus, parasites or bacteria. If no other source is available or if you're feeling energetic and compulsive: wash the food in Cold water with bleach & unscented detergent, then rinse it 2 or 3 times. Then soak the plant in warm water with a capsule of fishtank or poultry antibiotic / fungicide (areomycin or tetracyclene). dry it with a towel. The temp. or humidity may be to high or low. should be less than 100% between 75 and 90 deg.F. out of direct sunlight. The cage should be ventilated, they gotta breathe. The batch may be inbred. check the DNA of both parents. Your neighbor may be irradiating your house with high levels of microwaves &/or acid rock while you're out. Put a tape recorder & bag of popcorn next to the cage when you go out, if the popcorn is puffed, install lead sheeting on the wall nearest to the neighbor & don't let them see you eating the popcorn. If the recorder catches any acid rock or polka, it's too late, their nervous systems are already destroyed. There are more causes of mortality but the odds of occurrence become unrealistic. Bill Discord wrote: > It has been about two weeks since the original 46 caterpillars hatched. I > estimate I am down to a 1/4 of the original population. Is this normal? > > Adrian Wright --------------53F0C84D6A04333176528961 Content-Type: text/html; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian:

Nope, it's not normal (in a protected environment).

The food may be contaminated by pesticide, fungus, virus, parasites or bacteria. If no other source is available or if you're feeling energetic and compulsive: wash the food in Cold water with bleach & unscented detergent, then rinse it 2 or 3 times. Then soak the plant in warm water with a capsule of fishtank or poultry antibiotic / fungicide (areomycin or tetracyclene). dry it with a towel.

The temp. or humidity may be to high or low. should be less than 100% between 75 and 90 deg.F. out of direct sunlight.

The cage should be ventilated, they gotta breathe.

The batch may be inbred. check the DNA of both parents.

Your neighbor may be irradiating your house with high levels of microwaves &/or acid rock while you're out. Put a tape recorder & bag of popcorn next to the cage when you go out, if the popcorn is puffed, install lead sheeting on the wall nearest to the neighbor & don't let them see you eating the popcorn. If the recorder catches any acid rock or polka, it's too late, their nervous systems are already destroyed.

There are more causes of mortality but the odds of occurrence become unrealistic.

Bill
 

Discord wrote:

It has been about two weeks since the original 46 caterpillars hatched.  I
estimate I am down to a 1/4 of the original population.  Is this normal?

Adrian Wright

--------------53F0C84D6A04333176528961-- ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Sat Sep 8 20:17:59 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 17:17:59 -0700 Subject: Hornets in my bait traps References: <0AB54094.3568E0EE.7285CD1F@netscape.net> Message-ID: <3B9AB537.3D63D649@mail.mcn.org> Mark: how about separate hornet traps, fishhead on a string in (but not touching the sides of) a coffee can 1/4 full of soapy water. leps hate fishheads. or even bait it with whatever you're using now. Bill Mark Etheridge wrote: > I've had a few bait traps out here in northern Maryland all summer and have had a persistent problem with white-faced hornets feeding on the bait. If there are only a couple I usually don't worry too much about it, but sometimes there are so many that I am not comfortable approaching the trap (that's usually when there's something particularly good in there, naturally). Has anyone else had this experience? What is the best thing to do? I've tried relocating the traps, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. Any ideas would be appreciated. > > Mark Etheridge > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ >  > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >  For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > >  http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl >  ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jjcardinal at aol.com Sat Sep 8 20:39:45 2001 From: jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) Date: 09 Sep 2001 00:39:45 GMT Subject: Polyphemus die off... References: <3B9AAF3D.89F603C4@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: <20010908203945.02130.00000705@mb-mf.aol.com> >Your neighbor may be irradiating your house with high levels of microwaves >&/or acid rock while you're out. Put a tape recorder & bag of popcorn next to >the cage when you go out, if the popcorn is puffed, install lead sheeting on >the wall nearest to the neighbor & don't let them see you eating the popcorn. >If the recorder catches any acid rock or polka, it's too late, their nervous >systems are already destroyed. > >There are more causes of mortality but the odds of occurrence become >unrealistic. > >Bill > > >Discord wrote: > >> It has been about two weeks since the original 46 caterpillars hatched. I >> estimate I am down to a 1/4 of the original population. Is this normal? >> >> Adrian Wright > >--------------53F0C84D6A04333176528961 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=x-user-defined >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Adrian: >Nope, it's not normal (in a protected environment). >The food may be contaminated by pesticide, fungus, virus, parasitesor >bacteria. If no other source is available or if you're feeling energeticand >compulsive: wash the food in Cold water with bleach &unscented detergent, >then rinse it 2 or 3 times. Then soak the plant inwarm water with a capsule >of fishtank or poultry antibiotic / fungicide(areomycin or tetracyclene). dry >it with a towel. >The temp. or humidity may be to high or low. should be less than 100%between >75 and 90 deg.F. out of direct sunlight. >The cage should be ventilated, they gotta breathe. >The batch may be inbred. check the DNA of both parents. >Your neighbor may be irradiating your house with high levels of >microwaves&/or acid rock while you're out. Put a tape recorder & bag of >popcornnext to the cage when you go out, if the popcorn is puffed, install >leadsheeting on the wall nearest to the neighbor & don't let them see >youeating the popcorn. If the recorder catches any acid rock or polka, >it'stoo late, their nervous systems are already destroyed. >There are more causes of mortality but the odds of occurrence >becomeunrealistic. >Bill I know the subject is serious, but this last paragraph gave me a good laugh! Thanks, Bill Louise Dawson www.jjcardinal.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jrg13 at psu.edu Sat Sep 8 22:37:19 2001 From: jrg13 at psu.edu (John Grehan) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:37:19 -0400 Subject: Species II In-Reply-To: <010701c13776$23b7c800$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010908222715.00d88340@127.0.0.1> > >This will sound like a change of subject, but I want to point something >out. The cultural mind of Western humanity is programmed from birth to >"think" is various ways that are quite different from the Eastern or Far >Eastern cultural mind. And I probably should not comment further as its probably too far from the list purpose, but to talk of a 'Western" cultural mind vs an 'Eastern' is to play into a mythology of mind as neither 'eastern' or 'western' are monotheistic entities, and neither do they have distinct boundaries. Within the 'west' there are distinctly different, and sometimes conflicting, perspectives, and in some ways the West might be defined by those particular philosophical conflicts if anything at all. >I surely can not get into all of this, but for >example. To the Eastern mind a thing of beauty is simply acknowledge as >such - not only is no explanation based on analyzation of the beauty >sought - none is even wanted. To the Western mind we have to define it. It seems to me that there are plenty of 'Western" minds content to accept rather than analyze. And it seems to me, from what little I know of the 'east' that there are enough eastern minds not content with acceptance without analysis. >Actually, insist that the Easterner not just tell us "she is beautiful" to >also tell us why. American's are the worst at this. Which is why most in >the US eat to live - unlike those in say Greece who live to eat. So the Greeks have 'eastern' minds? One thing all 'minds' seem to have in common is their willingness to destroy their natural environment - not to mention each other. I think I would rather concern myself over the future of the moths and butterflies and other organisms than the perceived deficiencies of purported cultural entities. John Grehan ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Sat Sep 8 23:53:42 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:53:42 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Definition of "species" Message-ID: Martin Bailey made a few statements I take issue with: > Where I live on the flat prairie they put zigs in the roads going > straight north/south. We call them correction lines. You see, the Earth > is curved and roads that would go endlessly in straight lines don't work. Those zigs may result from the peculiarities of the township/range system. Remember that the lines dividing sections do not run true N-S or true E-W. As a matter of actual fact, the shortest distance on the earth's surface between two points that are due north/south of each other _is_ a line (with no zigs in it) running due north/south. This is also a great circle. > where on a clear day you can see 32 miles to the horizon. In flat country, or on water, the distance to the horizon in statute miles is 1.32 times the square root of the distance of your eyes above the ground/water in feet. This holds for normal conditions of atmospheric refeaction--there will be exceptions during inversions or times when the surface is heated. So, if your eyes are 6 feet above the ground/water, your horizon is 3.2 miles away, not 32. Decimal point error? > The daily weather report giving the temperature in Fahrenheit (only in > America) or Celius uses a zero point that ain't zero Zero is the dividing point between positive and negative. If you think zero has to also convey some higher degree of the absence of everything, then you must have real problems with Greenwich being at zero longitude, or mean sea level being at zero elevation. And just to make things even more interesting, there is a possible variation on the Kelvin temperature scale that puts 'absolute zero' at minus infinity. These decisions are arbitrary, and do not reflect unarguable aspects of the natural world. Just like species... :-) Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com Sun Sep 9 00:57:16 2001 From: sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com (Pierre A Plauzoles) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:57:16 -0700 Subject: Merriam life zones References: Message-ID: <3B9AF6AC.78991DE2@bigfoot.com> "Grkovich, Alex" wrote: > Maybe that is true, but that still is no reason to ignore the concept as if > it doesn't exist. Ignoring the concept has resulted in an obvious ignorance > in many many people as to why some species do or do not range occur in a > given area. > > Here is perhaps a very good example. Anyone who has lived in the northeast > has heard about "Water Moccasins" swimming in the swamps and waters of > southern New England. Just last Monday there was a very large Northern Water > Snake lying with a large catfish in its mouth by the water's edge at the > Ashley Reservoir, Holyoke, MA. I got asked by at least 6 people as to > whether it was a moccasin or whether it had venom. How easy it would be to > understand that the Cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus) is a snake of the > Lower Austral Zone (an examination of the species range reveals this fact) > and that as such it could opt possibly be found in the north (unless someone > would be dumb enough to introduce them). In 20 years living in New England I > have had to inform numerous people of this fact, including fisherman, > hunters, people who routinely hike, etc. I once had to inform a local park > ranger and several times have informed individuals involved in conservation > up here that, don't worry, they are not found here. > > I'm sorry but I would have to expect people to be more knowledgeable. good example of just the opposite was found in the Sacramento/San Joaquin Rivers Delta of northern California a number of years ago -- so I have heard. Someone had found a large crocodilian (how many individuals, I don't recall, but it was either a crococdile or an alligator) in some of the delta's swampier areas (it has been quite a while, and I don't recall the details), and the thought was that the species might even be breeding in the area. While this may be a very far-fetched idea, consider the summer temperatures: they do reach upwards of 100F regularly and often over 110F, a fact that 1/ appeared to suit the "beastie" just fine, 2/ makes one think twice about rejecting the idea out of hand, and 3/ would definitely keep one on the lookout for strange movement in the water. :-) Pierre A Plauzoles sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kenelm Philip [SMTP:fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:37 PM > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > > Subject: Merriam life zones > > > > > > There is a reason why the Merriam life zones that Klots made such > > good use of are not being mentioned as much these days. The basic concept > > of 'climax vegetation' is no longer so firmly in place as it once was, > > and Merriam's zones do not play a major role in modern ecology. The > > situation appears to be a bit more complex... > > > > Ken Philip > > fnkwp at uaf.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From paul.naftzger at worldnet.att.net Sun Sep 9 13:13:05 2001 From: paul.naftzger at worldnet.att.net (Paul Naftzger) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 17:13:05 GMT Subject: raising swallowtails Message-ID: I am interested in raising Tiger Swallowtails with my kids, and releasing them each year. We live in Arkansas, USA. Is there anyplace I can purchase eggs? We did this once with Painted Ladies and now we would like to try it with T. Swallowtails. Paul Naftzger pnaftzger at hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From lawrence_turner at msn.com Sun Sep 9 15:13:40 2001 From: lawrence_turner at msn.com (Lawrence Turner) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 12:13:40 -0700 Subject: sparganothis in california Message-ID: Can anyone tell me how to tell the difference between senecionana, tunicana, striata, and xanthoides inconditana based on visual characteristics other than genitalia? Also, if anyone has any information on photographing micros and sending the photos over the internet, it would be appreciated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010909/079ebbc7/attachment.html From jhimmel at connix.com Sun Sep 9 16:22:18 2001 From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:22:18 -0400 Subject: raising swallowtails Message-ID: <001f01c1396d$2092e1c0$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel> I don't know if you can buy the eggs, but I always thought that the best experience for the kids, when it comes to rearing insects, is the hunt for the stock. Why don't you go out and search the cherries and tulip trees for the caterpillars? While there's a chance some may be parasitized, some may not be and you have the added satisfaction of giving the wild insects a better chance at completing the cycle. Then, if you'd like, you can get the eggs from the next generation and start from scratch. Just a thought... ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: John Himmelman Killingworth, CT USA jhimmel at connix.com ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Visit my websites at: http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html www.ctamphibians.com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Naftzger To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Date: Sunday, September 09, 2001 1:52 PM Subject: raising swallowtails >I am interested in raising Tiger Swallowtails with my kids, and releasing >them each year. We live in Arkansas, USA. Is there anyplace I can purchase >eggs? We did this once with Painted Ladies and now we would like to try it >with T. Swallowtails. > >Paul Naftzger >pnaftzger at hotmail.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From robert.beiriger at worldnet.att.net Sun Sep 9 22:49:45 2001 From: robert.beiriger at worldnet.att.net (robert beiriger) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:49:45 -0700 Subject: Hornets in my bait traps References: <0AB54094.3568E0EE.7285CD1F@netscape.net> Message-ID: <00b901c139a3$420a2c60$5cdb4d0c@terib> I was told by a great baiter, "If you are getting a lot of hornets in your bait traps, then you are using too much sugar in the mix". Try added less sugar to the bait and see if that helps. Robert Beiriger Loxahatchee, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Etheridge To: Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Hornets in my bait traps > I've had a few bait traps out here in northern Maryland all summer and have had a persistent problem with white-faced hornets feeding on the bait. If there are only a couple I usually don't worry too much about it, but sometimes there are so many that I am not comfortable approaching the trap (that's usually when there's something particularly good in there, naturally). Has anyone else had this experience? What is the best thing to do? I've tried relocating the traps, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. Any ideas would be appreciated. > > Mark Etheridge > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From webmaster at insectnet.com Sun Sep 9 20:55:21 2001 From: webmaster at insectnet.com (Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 00:55:21 GMT Subject: My technique for spreading butterflies - A photo essay Message-ID: http://www.insectnet.com/photoalbum_tech.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Leptraps at aol.com Sun Sep 9 22:02:09 2001 From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:02:09 EDT Subject: Hornets in my bait traps Message-ID: <83.fa62c7e.28cd7921@aol.com> Mark: Bait traps are much like light traps. What ever comes to the light or bait gets in the traps. However, hornets have two motives for entering your trap. The first, which is your problem, the hornets come to the bait in the trap. Once in the trap, they become disoriented and cannot get out. The second, they enter the trap in search of a meal, and for whatever reason, they follow the same path out. Sweet baits bring the hornets, less sugar will help. However, you need the sugar to begin fermenting. Less sugar will reduce the numbers of hornets, it reduces the effectiveness of the bait. Or, use some stale corn based beer. (Old Milwaukee). And another trick worth a shot, un-sulfured molasses. This one works for me. If you are worried about getting stung. A little of YOUR urine in the bait will reduce hornets, and some species of moths, especially Catocala's. My formula for bait will bring some hornets and yellow jackets. As it ages, the number of hornets will lessen. This recipe will make enough bait for 6 flat bottom bait traps. 3 pounds of cheap apples. 3 pound of bananas 3 pounds of nectarines/peaches. Cut apples and nectarines into 1 inch chunks, slice banana's and fill gallon ziplock bags. Add 1/2 cup of cane sugar. Add 1/2 cup of water. Mix contents (Shake the bag), and place in the sun. Once the bag swells up. The bait is ready. Let me know what happens. The master baiter has spoken! Cheers, Leroy C. Koehn 202 Redding Road Georgetown, Kentucky USA 40324-2622 Tele.: 502-570-9123 Cell: 502-803-5422 E-mail: Leptraps at aol.com "Let's get among them" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010909/b537c5ef/attachment.html From kent_72 at mail.ru Mon Sep 10 03:38:44 2001 From: kent_72 at mail.ru (DP) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:38:44 GMT Subject: Butterfly exchange Message-ID: <86_m7.14461$lB4.241532@news.easynews.com> Beginner collector from Russia looking for friends - for exchange butterflies :-))) I'm interesting for tropical Papilionidae, Nymphalidae, and have only collon russian butterflies. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Mon Sep 10 05:13:24 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 05:13:24 -0400 Subject: Throybes ID coming Message-ID: <005701c139d8$d8dbfee0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Sometime this month a TILS Newsletter will come out. This has been in the "works" since spring! One of the features is an article on how to tell Thorybes confusis from T. bathyllus (Southern Cloudywing). There are 18 pictures of all broods of both taxa. If a picture really is worth one thousand words there should not be anything left to say on telling these two apart. Over the last 30 years I have found these two probably the most misidentified skipper species in collections. The Newsletter only goes to our members/subscribers. However, the newsletters are eventually posted in their entirety on the TILS web site. So it will be awhile before it gets there - though well before the end of the year. (Of course someone can always subscribe if they can't wait :-). I'll doubtless let all lepsters know when that does happen. By next season everyone in the east and south should be ready to have these two down pat. Curators will probably be taken back by how many they have misidentified in their institutional collections - light marked bathyllus called confusis and heavily marked confusis labeled bathyllus - a 50/50 split. Ron Gatrelle http://www.tils-ttr.org ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Mon Sep 10 10:49:08 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:49:08 -0700 Subject: Pieris character caveat Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB469@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> While pecking away on the keyboard to articulate visual differences between P. oleracea, marginalis and angelika last week; I neglected to mention that I was describing what I see in the males. Females are another story which is in my job jar for winter works. Apologies for the oversight. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Mon Sep 10 11:10:49 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:10:49 -0700 Subject: Odd habitats -- Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB46A@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> After shoveling the black bear crap off my back lawn late Friday afternoon I fired up the lawnmower to attend to that domestic chore. Along the way a butterfly feebly fluttered up in front of the mower. It took a fraction of a second to recognize it as Neophasia menapia. Of course I dutifully pounced on it with both hands to provide a voucher for a future map dot for Genelle. Butterflies do wander but it never occurred to me that I would see this resident of tree tops in needle-leaved coniferous forests loitering on lawn grass in a semi-urban area surrounded by broad-leaved deciduous forest. Saturday I ran into a real shocker. Rambled along a logging road at mid elevation in classic cedar/hemlock etc conifer forest in valley bottom riparian situation to check out the nymphalids that frequent such areas. shocked to find freshly emerged males and females of Hesperia juba visiting the knapweed at the edge of the road. This butterfly is normally reported in the books to inhabit the low, xeric, non forest or open forest habitats. No such habitat was present anywhere close to where I found these. closest thing was a cutblock that was well on its way to being a new forest. I guess Dornfeld in Butterflies of Oregon was right in observing that juba "readily adapts to a wide variety of ecological environments". Appearance note: Some books say juba has yellow-brown or brown or green brown ventral hindwing. Maybe this fits somewhere in the range of this species. Now that I have examined over 100 BC specimens I can safely report that here they have a green ventral hindwing altho when flight worn they can look brownish green. PS. I have gotten used to living, working and recreating in bear habitat and I don't even mind their raids on my fruit trees but I do wish that bold bruin that dumped a load 6 feet from our bedroom window would go somewhere else :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Mon Sep 10 12:49:31 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:49:31 -0400 Subject: Species III Message-ID: Not to reincarnate a discussion that seems to have blown itself out, but I wanted to quote once more from Klots (I had intended to last week but didn't have the book with me at work): "...Again, a new book is needed because of the recent re-orientation of our attitude toward natural science. We are getting away from the old "descriptive" natural history that is concerned with naming things and describing them. The "new" natural history is dynamic by comparison in every way. It regards different kinds of plants and animals (different species) not as separate and fixed things, but as fluid and plastic products of evolutionary change. It probes for the relationships between species, not as a convenience in classification, but as a clue to their origins and past histories. In doing this it attaches almost greater importance to "subspecies" than to species which is why so much space has been given to these in this book. And it also recognizes the great importance as well as interest, of studying the living thing in the field; for it realizes that habits and behavior, and the relationships of an organism to the other organisms around it, are all major factors in its dynamic changes through the ages...." (Pg. xv) Does it need to be argued that many of us have gotten away from that of which Klots was speaking of? And that there has been, in recent years, a reversion to the "old attitude" to natural science, that which Klots had proclaimed as dead and past? We are back to the practice of naming and counting without regard for even what it is that we are naming and counting. And the consequences of such an attitude toward natural science can be disastrous: Witness a qualified and knowledgeable Lepidopterist as Opler, who it seems to me has been backed into a corner by this attitude and the recent aversion to subspecific discussion, to state that "Hackberry Emperors always have only one black FW ocellus". One can only imagine the confusion and mis-identifications resulting from this statement. However, if discussions on subspecies had still been in vogue, probably such a statement would never have been made. Never mind Texas and westward, I have specimens of celtis from Dayton, Ohio with two ocelli. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:17 AM > To: Leps-l > Subject: Species III > > > Michael Gochfeld wrote: > Like Norbert I remain to be convinced that genetic distance (represented > as > percent) means the same thing in different taxa (or for that matter in > diffrerent fragments of the same two taxa). > > Norbert Kondla wrote: > Another is what I call the chemical species concept. Looking at the > chemistry of selected gene segments is growing increasingly fashionable. > Certainly gene chemistry, like genitalia, can provide some potentially > useful data but there is always room for interpretation. The chemical > species concept might argue that two butterflies with, for example, less > than 3% difference in gene chemistry are the same species. Extending this > logic to mammals would result in chimpanzies and humans being declared the > same species. I have some difficulty accepting that there is some magic > level of similarity in gene chemistry that defines what is or is not a > species. > ___________ > > Pterourus rutulus and P. eurymedon have the same mtDNA sequence. Yet > they > are obviously sympatric (co-occurring) species. This tells me that mtDNA > analysis is just about worthless relative to these two species. It has > recently been determined that Phyciodes batesii batesii and P. b. > maconensis are "very different" in their mtDNA. Yet this does not yet > release one to say that batesii batesii and maconensis are in fact two > species. How many variables are there just like and in-between these > extremes that _have_ been put forth to us as the Holy Grail final word on > if X is a species or subspecies? Quite a bit I bet. > What is going to happen when someone accidentally puts two chemically > identical (or almost so) critters that live a long way from each other - > and by chemical analysis have been "proven" to be the "same" species - > together and finds they will not mate and if they are coerced to do not > produce viable offspring? And what will be the explanation when the two > very genetically different "species" that live a long way apart are for > some reason put together and it is found that they mate and produce > offspring like Gypsy moths? > Genetics is not the all and all answer all at the specific and > subspecific level. > We already know that genitalia are not the magic bullet either. In > some > genera all the genitalia are basically the same. In some they vary with > the > subspecific morphology. > There are likely differing reasons that Kondla, Gochfeld and Gatrelle > all have a lack of total faith in what Norbert called the "chemical > species > concept." Perhaps others need to not just automatically swallow the whole > hook, line and sinker of those who so elevate this area/means of analysis > as the arrival point of taxonomic detecting and systematic discernment. > With this area of argument I say there is lots of subjectivity. > > Ron Gatrelle > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Mon Sep 10 13:24:05 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:24:05 -0700 Subject: another trash name Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Just remembered this gem. Nymphalis vau-album is another violator of the code. I remember Joe Belicek mentioning to me some 12 or so years ago that vau-album is a nomen nudum (naked name). Sadly I forgot to follow up on that advice so we ended up using it in Alberta Butterflies. But it is now widely known that we need to use the species name l-album Esper (1780). This was pointed out Kocak in Priamus twenty years ago but it has taken a while for us to wake up and smell the coffee. The genus name is also very suspect from a taxonomic view even tho it is OK from a nomenclature perspective. A truely excellent piece of work by Nylin et al 2001 presents sufficient reasons to cause me to place it in the genus Polygonia. People who like very narrowly defined monotyypic genera will want to place it in Roddia. Nymphalis does not appear to be defensible any longer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi Mon Sep 10 13:02:00 2001 From: jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi (Jaakko Kullberg) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:02:00 +0300 Subject: Hornets in my bait traps References: <83.fa62c7e.28cd7921@aol.com> Message-ID: <9nis0e$d1v$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Hi there! I use basically the same kind of liquids in my bait traps in S-Finland (n=79). I take whatever sweet juices or wine available and as much sugar as possible. I had earlier problems with Vespula species in Finland and even with Vespa crabro when visiting in Estonia. However when I started to use winegar to improve catching the number of Vespids decreased. It won't work well more than one week. I have used tetrachloretane in the traps and when the trap is good you will find only killed ones there. With urine in the bait you will improve atleast the number of flies there - I?ve tried when catching Apatura... jaska ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi Mon Sep 10 15:39:55 2001 From: jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi (Jaakko Kullberg) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:39:55 +0300 Subject: another trash name References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <9nj58u$mp2$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Hi there! "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote in message news:60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476 at blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca... A truely > excellent piece of work by Nylin et al 2001 presents sufficient reasons to > cause me to place it in the genus Polygonia. People who like very narrowly > defined monotyypic genera will want to place it in Roddia. Nymphalis does > not appear to be defensible any longer. I agree that the work of Hylin et al. is excellent. However I feel that it would be the most informative way to join all these nearly monotypic genera to one entity - Nymphalis (= + Polygonia (=Roddia), Kanaske, Inachis, Aglais). These genera are merely different species groups. Even the Leps themselves have problems with relatioships to each other: Aglais urticae males are often very interested i to do "it" with Inachis io and N. antiopa. Lumping of all these genera together with each other is - as I remember - strongly supported in cladogram and undoubtly they form a nice monophyletic group. This lumping is much easier to understand if we look underside of wings and do not let the bright colour disturb. How you feel? jaska ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Mon Sep 10 16:26:01 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:26:01 -0700 Subject: another trash name Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB482@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Excellent point. Some people think that more data and better phylogenies will put to bed the differing interpretations about where to draw the genus/subgenus and species/subspecies line. Here we have a case where we have excellent data and what looks to me like a pretty darn good phylogeny. BUT we can all still examine this information and draw completely different taxonomic rank interpretations. By way of example we can treat these as one genus as outlined below. We can also have numerous finely divided genera. Thirdly we can use the subgenus category and for example treat Aglais as a subgenus of Nymphalis. Probably one can construct even other rank interpretations. I for one prefer to keep genus names to a minimum because they are an obligatory category. This still leaves the subgenus rank available for those who wish to communicate finer distinctions that the majority of people probably do not care about. Natural groups are a useful concept but there certainly is no requirement that all natural groups have a formal name in the name heirarchy. The eternal question in all these matters is: How big (or small) do we build that corral before we put the butterflies into it :-) and regardless of the size, do we need to put a formal name on the corral ?? -----Original Message----- From: Jaakko Kullberg [mailto:jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi] Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 12:40 PM To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Subject: Re: another trash name Hi there! "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote in message news:60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476 at blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca... A truely > excellent piece of work by Nylin et al 2001 presents sufficient reasons to > cause me to place it in the genus Polygonia. People who like very narrowly > defined monotyypic genera will want to place it in Roddia. Nymphalis does > not appear to be defensible any longer. I agree that the work of Hylin et al. is excellent. However I feel that it would be the most informative way to join all these nearly monotypic genera to one entity - Nymphalis (= + Polygonia (=Roddia), Kanaske, Inachis, Aglais). These genera are merely different species groups. Even the Leps themselves have problems with relatioships to each other: Aglais urticae males are often very interested i to do "it" with Inachis io and N. antiopa. Lumping of all these genera together with each other is - as I remember - strongly supported in cladogram and undoubtly they form a nice monophyletic group. This lumping is much easier to understand if we look underside of wings and do not let the bright colour disturb. How you feel? jaska ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mbpi at juno.com Mon Sep 10 16:41:58 2001 From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:41:58 -0500 Subject: The Shortage of Taxonomists Message-ID: <20010910.154201.-257741.1.mbpi@juno.com> Hi, all... There was an evocative article in the Sunday Chicago Tribune about the lack of young biologists choosing taxonomy as a profession, opting instead to become the more glamorous and lucrative "molecular biologist" which is currently in vogue. This article, along with the fact that the Chicago Field Museum is expanding their collection storage in an effort to preserve the thousands of specimens that are currently being kept in less than "optimum" conditions, got me thinking about what is fast becoming an "antiquated" professional pursuit in the field of Biology. At the risk of starting a "war," when one considers the amount of "space" required for storage of the thousands of collected specimens, and the number of undescribed specimens alone within these collections languishing for "want" of someone to acknowledge and define them, it appears that the current state of taxonomic research is going the way of the dinosaur (!) This is not to underestimate the numbers of dedicated taxonomists that have greatly contributed their painstaking expertise and research to the overall knowledge and understanding of species diversity and ecosystem dynamics. I can't tell you how much I've learned from this listserv alone, or the awsome respect I have for the time-consuming research represented by the many individuals on this listserv.... But in the context of reality and practicality: we live in a world that is on "fast forward," with little time to devote to what most people would consider the "minutia" of our intertwined existence. If one were to examine the dynamics of populations of human beings alone, it would be pretty obvious that the dynamics of established populations as recently as 100 years ago, have changed considerably in a relatively short amount of time. Pockets of former immigrant neighborhoods have been gentrified. New immigrants from vastly different cultures have established new neighborhoods of their own, replacing the once predominant ethnic population. If we were something other than Homo sapiens, this change would indicate a "red flag" to the population biologists as a break down in the once "established" ecological dynamics, for better or worse...judged by human standards. Personally, I don't think it's possible to collect and define "every living thing" on the planet earth, nor do I think it's "necessary." Species come and species go, which is not necessarily a bad thing! Certainly there are "indicator" species in the many diverse ecosystems that can tell us which direction their environmental existence is headed. These are the species that I would focus my research on rather than try to determine all the resident species within a defined ecosystem. If the indicator specie's relationship to its environment hinges on some undetermined factor...be it some other species of plant or insect or bacteria, then that would be the criteria for determining why the indicator species is doing well or doing poorly... This is not to underestimate the importance of recognizing the presence of "subspecies:" If several families of Indo-Pakistani, say, were to move into a previously all Euro-descended neighborhood, this would indicate a change in the dynamics of the former community, along with all the cultural differences and requirements that would make this a "distinct group" of individuals within the previously established ecosystem. The introduction of any change within an established ecosystem can also be interpreted as an "indicator" by the transitional effect that subsequently erupts. The importance of such a transitional effect can only be determined by whether or not it becomes an actual established impact on the prevailing "status quo." (Am I making sense, or am I getting off on a tangent?!) I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's the predominant "obvious" that asserts itself in the overall hierarchy of population dynamics and is what is most easily grasped by those who don't have the time or inclination to intellectually pursue the intricacies of the minutia. Somebody has to do the cooking, cleaning and caretaking!!! I'm sorry, but now that I'm out of a job, I've got too much time on my hands to ruminate (!) M.B. Prondzinski Evanston, IL USA ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Mon Sep 10 16:47:35 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:47:35 -0700 Subject: Natural Groups and Genera Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB484@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Just a quick blab on something I have mentioned before. The genus Loranthomitoura. This genus was erected on the basis of a host plant difference and a difference in the arrangement of hairs on the caterpillars. In comparing this new construct to the magnitude of differences used to justify many other butterfly genera I cannot help but observe that a genus on the grounds stated above is a really lonnngggg leap of faith :-) But of course if it makes sense to others they are welcome to use the name at the genus level. There is no law that prohibits such and the rules of zoological nomenclature do not impinge on anyones rights to form a taxonomic opinion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi Mon Sep 10 17:21:28 2001 From: jaakko.kullberg at helsinki.fi (Jaakko Kullberg) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:21:28 +0300 Subject: another trash name References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB482@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <001a01c13a3e$9061dac0$15b6d680@ltkm> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" To: ; ; "'altabugs'" Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 11:26 PM Subject: RE: another trash name > Excellent point. Some people think that more data and better phylogenies > will put to bed the differing interpretations about where to draw the > genus/subgenus and species/subspecies line. Here we have a case where we > have excellent data and what looks to me like a pretty darn good phylogeny. > BUT we can all still examine this information and draw completely different > taxonomic rank interpretations. By way of example we can treat these as one > genus as outlined below. We can also have numerous finely divided genera. > Thirdly we can use the subgenus category and for example treat Aglais as a > subgenus of Nymphalis. Probably one can construct even other rank > interpretations. I for one prefer to keep genus names to a minimum because > they are an obligatory category. This still leaves the subgenus rank > available for those who wish to communicate finer distinctions that the > majority of people probably do not care about. Natural groups are a useful > concept but there certainly is no requirement that all natural groups have a > formal name in the name heirarchy. The eternal question in all these matters > is: How big (or small) do we build that corral before we put the butterflies > into it :-) and regardless of the size, do we need to put a formal name on > the corral ?? Hi again Norbert! What I can say? You just read my mind. If we have an excellent work we have free choice to decide and discuss. And with that kind of data everybody will CITE the original publication and that is very (too) important today and quite rare in our field. My personal opinion is that the term genus should tell us something "more what is obvious". So, everybody can understand that all the Polygonia (even vaualbum) and Aglais are very related to each other. To lump them into the genus Nymphalis means that the word "genus" is not so synonymic to a species group. Splitting genera in Papilionoidea has been disasterous and a lot of cheap easy information have been lost because everything is splitted. Unfortunately people often forgot that genera were made to unite species which have common features. > > I agree that the work of Hylin et al. is excellent. However I feel that it I am AMAZED how I again managed to hit wrong letter it should NYLIN of course and greetings to Sweden for good work... jaska ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu Mon Sep 10 17:54:55 2001 From: JADAMS at em.daltonstate.edu (DR. JAMES ADAMS) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:54:55 -0400 Subject: another trash name In-Reply-To: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB482@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <200109102153.RAA03419@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> Listers, Norbert, even though we've never met, I could just about e-kiss you. Don't worry, my wife is secure in our relationship and she knows it would be a collegial kiss. It's just that you keep saying clearly what I've been trying to muddle through. Norbert and Jaakko wrote about the genus Nymphalis and other "genera" that could be included in Nymphalis (such as Aglais, Inachis, Polygonia, etc.): BUT we can all still examine this information and > draw completely different taxonomic rank interpretations. By way > of example we can treat these as one genus. . . We can also > have numerous finely divided genera. Thirdly we can use the > subgenus category and for example treat Aglais as a subgenus of Nymphalis. Norbert also wrote: I for one prefer to keep genus names to a minimum because they are an obligatory category. This still leaves the subgenus rank available for those who wish to communicate finer distinctions I agree wholeheartedly. The genus/subgenus distinctions are best used this way, because the larger "genus" Nymphalis allows you to know that these species are a nicely knit grouping of near closest relatives, and the subgenus name lets you delineate further the species groups within the genus. Lastly, Norbert said: Natural groups are a useful concept but there certainly is no requirement that all natural groups have a formal name in the name heirarchy. The eternal question in all these matters is: How big (or small) do we build that corral before we put the butterflies into it :-) and regardless of the size, do we need to put a formal name on the corral ?? What else is there to say? Names are great to have, and I'm all for familial/subfamilial/tribal/generic/subgeneric names to indicate perceived levels of relatedness, but you need not put names on each species pair, etc. No offense, Ron (we've disagreed before and know perfectly well it's nothing personal), but I still have to contend that there is no such thing as a genus (or any higher taxa) in nature, and Norbert's post explains perfectly why. Yes, there are some species that are certainly each other's closest relatives, but distances between species are not easy to delineate, and so are open to some interpretation . . . and the species themselves don't care!! James Dr. James K. Adams Dept. of Natural Science and Math Dalton State College 213 N. College Drive Dalton, GA 30720 Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) U of Michigan's President James Angell's Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jeff at primus.ca Mon Sep 10 20:27:15 2001 From: jeff at primus.ca (Jeff Crolla/Martha Hancock) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:27:15 -0400 Subject: Checkered White in Ontario Message-ID: <000701c13a58$bf114e40$e3a2fed8@default> On Sept.9 (Sunday) I caught a worn female Checkered White, Pontia protodice, in Toronto, Ontario (my first after ten years of habitually checking cabbage whites just in case!) in a small weedy gravel lot in the city, just north of downtown. She was far from gravid and I doubt she had any or many eggs left, although if any were laid locally perhaps there is a chance some will survive the winter. Also found a fresh female Buckeye (Junonia coenia) on the 9th, and this afternoon a worn Variegated Fritillary (E. claudia), all likely brought in by the southwesterly air flow over the weekend. Just wanted to pass this on as it may be worth taking a closer look at Pieris rapae in southern Ontario in case there are others around. Just took a look through past summaries of the TEA (Toronto Entomologists Assocation) and there do not appear to be any records from Toronto in the last ten years or more. Jeff Crolla ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Mon Sep 10 21:27:49 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:27:49 -0700 Subject: Odd habitats -- References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB46A@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3B9D6895.38081E15@mail.mcn.org> Norbert: I once found four L. lorquini on one pile of bear crap. They're un impressed by the tons of dog feces in suberbia, so count your blessings (though they may be large and grumpy). Bill "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > After shoveling the black bear crap off my back lawn late Friday afternoon I > fired up the lawnmower to attend to that domestic chore. Along the way a > butterfly feebly fluttered up in front of the mower. It took a fraction of a > second to recognize it as Neophasia menapia. Of course I dutifully pounced > on it with both hands to provide a voucher for a future map dot for Genelle. > Butterflies do wander but it never occurred to me that I would see this > resident of tree tops in needle-leaved coniferous forests loitering on lawn > grass in a semi-urban area surrounded by broad-leaved deciduous forest. > Saturday I ran into a real shocker. Rambled along a logging road at mid > elevation in classic cedar/hemlock etc conifer forest in valley bottom > riparian situation to check out the nymphalids that frequent such areas. > shocked to find freshly emerged males and females of Hesperia juba visiting > the knapweed at the edge of the road. This butterfly is normally reported in > the books to inhabit the low, xeric, non forest or open forest habitats. No > such habitat was present anywhere close to where I found these. closest > thing was a cutblock that was well on its way to being a new forest. I guess > Dornfeld in Butterflies of Oregon was right in observing that juba "readily > adapts to a wide variety of ecological environments". Appearance note: Some > books say juba has yellow-brown or brown or green brown ventral hindwing. > Maybe this fits somewhere in the range of this species. Now that I have > examined over 100 BC specimens I can safely report that here they have a > green ventral hindwing altho when flight worn they can look brownish green. > PS. I have gotten used to living, working and recreating in bear habitat and > I don't even mind their raids on my fruit trees but I do wish that bold > bruin that dumped a load 6 feet from our bedroom window would go somewhere > else :-) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca >  > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >  For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > >  http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl >  ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Mon Sep 10 23:47:51 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:47:51 -0500 Subject: another trash name In-Reply-To: <200109102153.RAA03419@dr-who.daltonstate.edu> References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB482@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010910222704.00a7c290@mail.utexas.edu> The genus and indeed all other supraspecific groups are merely artifacts of extinction. When a cluster of species survive we tend to call that cluster a genus. It is a very useful concept. It allows us to talk about a set of lineages that must be doing something right. When the extinction of intermediate lineages is incomplete and the groups resulting from cluster analysis are not clean, we tend to give up, throw away the information just gained, and lump into large genera. This is where subgenera and superspecies are useful concepts. Consider for a moment the arrangement: Homo (Homo) sapiens, Homo (Pan) troglodytes, and Homo (Pan) paniscus. Does that not seem comfortable to all but the most extreme lumpers and splitters? ..............Chris Durden At 05:54 PM 9/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Norbert and Jaakko wrote about the genus Nymphalis and other >"genera" that could be included in Nymphalis (such as Aglais, >Inachis, Polygonia, etc.): > > BUT we can all still examine this information and > > draw completely different taxonomic rank interpretations. By way > > of example we can treat these as one genus. . . We can also > > have numerous finely divided genera. Thirdly we can use the > > subgenus category and for example treat Aglais as a subgenus >of Nymphalis. > >Norbert also wrote: > >I for one prefer to keep genus names to a minimum because they >are an obligatory category. This still leaves the subgenus rank >available for those who wish to communicate finer distinctions > > I agree wholeheartedly. The genus/subgenus distinctions are >best used this way, because the larger "genus" Nymphalis allows >you to know that these species are a nicely knit grouping of near >closest relatives, and the subgenus name lets you delineate further >the species groups within the genus. > >Lastly, Norbert said: > >Natural groups are a useful concept but >there certainly is no requirement that all natural groups have a >formal name in the name heirarchy. The eternal question in all these >matters is: How big (or small) do we build that corral before we put >the butterflies into it :-) and regardless of the size, do we need to >put a formal name on the corral ?? > > What else is there to say? Names are great to have, and I'm >all for familial/subfamilial/tribal/generic/subgeneric names to >indicate perceived levels of relatedness, but you need not put >names on each species pair, etc. > > No offense, Ron (we've disagreed before and know perfectly well >it's nothing personal), but I still have to contend that there is no >such thing as a genus (or any higher taxa) in nature, and Norbert's >post explains perfectly why. Yes, there are some species that are >certainly each other's closest relatives, but distances between >species are not easy to delineate, and so are open to some >interpretation . . . and the species themselves don't care!! > >James > >Dr. James K. Adams >Dept. of Natural Science and Math >Dalton State College >213 N. College Drive >Dalton, GA 30720 >Phone: (706)272-4427; fax: (706)272-2533 >http://www.daltonstate.edu/galeps/ (Georgia Lepidoptera) >U of Michigan's President James Angell's > Secret of Success: "Grow antennae, not horns" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Tue Sep 11 04:51:51 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:51:51 -0400 Subject: "Species?" References: <3B98EE5E.A25FA034@snet.net> Message-ID: <00b601c13a9f$0189be60$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Bill Yule wrote: > The only "real" species is the individual you are holding in your > hand that was extracted from a wild population. The species concept is > an intellectual corral that we attempt to erect around wild populations > that share, 1. A common ancestor. 2. A common gene pool. 3. A high > degree of morphological (also chemical, molecular, etc.) similarity 4. > The ability to sexually reproduce with others within the corral. > Individuals that we extract and examine from within the corral we say > belong to "that species." Individuals that we examine that are outside Since we are concerned specifically with Lepidoptera I would deal with these four points as follows. I would have only two groupings. First and foremost would be point 4 - the ability to reproduce within the corral _only_ . This in fact is what makes the corral. Which is why there is no human subjectivity to it - only observation and documentation. The second delimiting natural species indicator (not human construct) is common gene pool (2). That's it. Factor 1 should be thrown out as ancestry is totally irrelevant to a butterfly/moths existence in the now as a species. It is no more relative than the next taxon or taxa or none that may arise in the future. Species are what is - period. Now, when we get into higher assemblages where human subjectivity (guesswork) becomes more of a factor, such factors as ancestry can become very important indicators. (The future would be good to know here too but we do not have crystal balls or time machines yet.) We can focus so much on the past link - evolutional species to species junctions - that we end up ignoring that which is clearly definable on each side of the link - species. This is a great flaw with evolutionists - they are linkitized. They are like a person at the tiny junction of the Mississippi and Missouri rivers trying to desperately figure out the "rivers" at their link, point of transition. In the mean time they miss _both_ of the whole rivers. They have been driven to this obsession by the creationists (beginning with Darwin) . Without links they have no evolution. Thus, the parts are philosophically more important than the whole. Creationists are just the opposite. They are obsessed with wholes. For if there are links they think there is no God and they are but a fancy monkey. This is why both groups so often use the word "believe". Factor 3 is too unstable for consistent use. In Heliconid species for example the phenotypes/morphology can be so varried that they will in and of themselves lead to false conclusions. Pharamones as chemicals are only partially good as my understanding is that some will draw multiple species. Molecular studies will differ in different groupings and in cases can not render a verdict solomente. These are most useful in assessing larger group relatonships - but even there things are not as organized or cut and dried and the average lay person has been led to believe. The best definition of a species remains within themselves. As has been pointed out by several here, the butterflies have no problem knowing what their species are. (Individual hormonally driven males prove noting other than some male leps would become rapists/perverts just like in every other animal group I know of.) Thus, determining what a leps species is, is only difficult for people. The easiest way is to just put some of those _we_ hold in question as to if they are conspecific or not from Europe, Asia, or North American in together and just see if they do what comes naturally. Why do DNA testing, rely on finger prints, or circumstantial evidence when the suspect is on the witness stand their self and is perfectly willing to admit to the crime! Or, already has confessed. (Hey, we are species _____ . See I reproduced easily with population Asia. Really, we are both _________es. Or the opposite. Look, I have told you a million times Asia and I are not the same species. We tried to have kids and it did not work. I don't care if all our genitalia look alike and fit (Atrytonopsis), our phenotype is the same (Celastrina), our DNA says we are a match (rutulus/eurymedon). Read my lips - we know we are not all species ______. She is a _____ and I am a ______. What is wrong with you people. AAH, of course that is the problem you are people and we are Leps. Hey, you all look just alike to us too. In fact we are thinking of starting a collection of people to find out what you already know about yourselves - but is a total mystery to us. :-) Normal reproductivity within specie and isolation or limitation extra species is the only 100% indicator. Natural hybrids are another subject. Close leps species will do this - yet they remain clearly specific. There is a whole different set of factors and tests by which to assess hybrids - like Haldane's rule. Maybe the problem, again, is with us humans - we need to develop better ways to understand hybridization as to what it indicates and what not. Our fence is wrong - not theirs. So let's try harder to locate theirs. It seems many today do not like a "biological" definition of a species - it is out of vogue. Well, they are biological units and that should be the _first_ means of definition. All biota posses chemicals - but they are not chemicals. They are organisms. Thus, their primary function is organic - biological - and with leps sexually reproductively delimited. > Individuals that we extract and examine from within the corral we say > belong to "that species." Individuals that we examine that are outside > the corral we say belong to "another species". Individuals that are on > the fence somewhere we say are "subspecies". Those on the fence may > struggle off the fence and wind up outside the corral and then a > taxonomists comes along and says "hey this is a new species, I'm going > to describe it." The individual on the fence may stubble and fall back > inside the corral and get reabsorbed into the wild population there: It > does not become a new species or a subspecies. I think I understand what Bill had in mind conceptually here and so my points which follow are not directly relative to what he actually had in mind. But that is OK as I am not writing any of this for the purpose of contradicting Bill or to undo his points. I am using his post as a spring board to put forth my own points and their own merits - for consideration. Like two lawyers who present their arguments and then go play golf together while the jury decides. This does remind me of something else though. There seems to be a philosophical contradiction in some of these posts. While there is talk of artificiality and subjectivity and thus freedom of alignments in ranks - the bottom line is intolerance of subspecies and splitting. One can not have it both ways. One can not say that all is just subjective human fence making and then turn around and scoff at others fences and virtually demand that theirs be torn down and the lumpers adopted. If all is a human construct then all is equally valid and it is just a matter of choice. In practice this is not the way it is. Back to this ..".The individual on the fence may stubble and fall back > inside the corral and get reabsorbed into the wild population there: It > does not become a new species or a subspecies." I think that Bill is saying here that the entity begins to leave the species nitch but does not make it out. It thus does not become a new species or subspecies as it didn't get out "far enough". But, if gray begins to evolve out of white and then becomes a black segregate that is divergent evolution. If the black begins to then return to mingle with the white and totally rejoins with it that is a type of convergent evolution. However, the phrase "fall back into" is evolutionally impossible if it means to return to the previous state of being. Once evolved _nothing_ can return to what it was. This is because of the second law of evolution - Everything is always advancing, becoming something new. It may be more or less primitive in this newness - but it can never be what it was. Thus, in this convergence both the white and the black have converged - not just that which went out (the black = new species/subspecies). One did not just "return" the other had to accept it. Thus, in this mutual convergence a new entity has been created as what came back into was not the same as what went out. It may not even look much different to us humans but it is a whole new evolutionary construct with entirely different potential than pre convergence. In fact, this is a new subspecies because what it is has never been before. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Guy_VdP at t-online.de Tue Sep 11 05:28:25 2001 From: Guy_VdP at t-online.de (Guy Van de Poel & A. Kalus) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:28:25 +0200 Subject: another trash name References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <003c01c13aa4$1c3ea680$1d1c58d9@server> Ko?ak, 1981 merely repeated what _Stichel in Seitz, 1909-09_, Die Gross-Schmetterlinge der Erde (1) 1. Die Palaearktischen Tagfalter. p. 206 : "Polygonia l-album (= vau-album Schiff., nom. nud.)" had already published. This has apparently been neglected/forgotten for over 70 years. So, you're not the only ones ... Guy. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX To: 'lepsl' ; 'altabugs' Sent: maandag 10 september 2001 19:24 Subject: another trash name > Just remembered this gem. Nymphalis vau-album is another violator of the > code. I remember Joe Belicek mentioning to me some 12 or so years ago that > vau-album is a nomen nudum (naked name). Sadly I forgot to follow up on that > advice so we ended up using it in Alberta Butterflies. But it is now widely > known that we need to use the species name l-album Esper (1780). This was > pointed out Kocak in Priamus twenty years ago but it has taken a while for > us to wake up and smell the coffee. The genus name is also very suspect from > a taxonomic view even tho it is OK from a nomenclature perspective. A truely > excellent piece of work by Nylin et al 2001 presents sufficient reasons to > cause me to place it in the genus Polygonia. People who like very narrowly > defined monotyypic genera will want to place it in Roddia. Nymphalis does > not appear to be defensible any longer. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Guy_VdP at t-online.de Tue Sep 11 05:45:22 2001 From: Guy_VdP at t-online.de (Guy Van de Poel & A. Kalus) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:45:22 +0200 Subject: another trash name - correction References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> <003c01c13aa4$1c3ea680$1d1c58d9@server> Message-ID: <005a01c13aa6$7a541f00$1d1c58d9@server> It's so easy to make mistakes below, it should have read : _Stichel, 1908 in Seitz, 1906-09_ Guy. > Ko?ak, 1981 merely repeated what _Stichel in Seitz, 1909-09_, > Die Gross-Schmetterlinge der Erde (1) > 1. Die Palaearktischen Tagfalter. > p. 206 : > "Polygonia l-album (= vau-album Schiff., nom. nud.)" > had already published. > This has apparently been neglected/forgotten for over 70 years. > So, you're not the only ones ... > > Guy. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > To: 'lepsl' ; 'altabugs' > > Sent: maandag 10 september 2001 19:24 > Subject: another trash name > > > > Just remembered this gem. Nymphalis vau-album is another violator of the > > code. I remember Joe Belicek mentioning to me some 12 or so years ago that > > vau-album is a nomen nudum (naked name). Sadly I forgot to follow up on > that > > advice so we ended up using it in Alberta Butterflies. But it is now > widely > > known that we need to use the species name l-album Esper (1780). This was > > pointed out Kocak in Priamus twenty years ago but it has taken a while for > > us to wake up and smell the coffee. The genus name is also very suspect > from > > a taxonomic view even tho it is OK from a nomenclature perspective. A > truely > > excellent piece of work by Nylin et al 2001 presents sufficient reasons to > > cause me to place it in the genus Polygonia. People who like very narrowly > > defined monotyypic genera will want to place it in Roddia. Nymphalis does > > not appear to be defensible any longer. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > > Phone 250-365-8610 > > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 11 09:06:14 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:06:14 -0400 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EC3@hqmail.gensym.com> Barbara asked about field marks. I'm not sure which butterflies she's specifically referring to (I think it's the Speyeria that Norbert has on his e-Board), but I can say that she's not the only one who struggles with these identifications. The Fritillaries I enjoyed in Oregon recently were also virtually impossible to separate. There's no question that there are various forms on the wing - especially when you consider both the ventral and dorsal views (which Norbert's page does not show), but there are also very many similarities. Size is a factor, along with the coloration (and extent of scaling) of the disc on the ventral hindwing. The degree and pattern of black scaling on the dorsal forewing is a good identifier, as well as the extent of silver spotting. The size and coloration of the submarginal band on the ventral hindwing is also a good identifier. Of course, one would like to think that identification might be as simple as knowing your location - but that isn't always enough. I, too, ran into what I'm sure map to multiple "subspecies" of S. zerene. With that much variation, it's difficult to isolate the differences. I did witness a number of mating pairs - and I think that outside of bringing them into captivity, it's only through field observation that we can gain any insight. It would appear that there is no cross breeding amongst species, but I can't prove that with my field observations alone. It's tempting to consider the possibility that all of these bugs are the same critter. On the other hand, it's truly overwhelming when you stumble into a Fritillary frenzy and you consider the possibility that they might just in fact all be different. I saw at least three frits that day which were totally unique from all of the others. When it's one in thousands you're looking at, you can't hardly afford to ignore even a single one. In 90 degree F. plus heat, it's not for the faint hearted, that's for sure. Mark Walker > -----Original Message----- > From: Barb Beck [mailto:barb at birdnut.obtuse.com] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 9:55 AM > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > > > Thanks Norbert for the pages on Pieris and Speyeria. > > Question to Norbert and others. I can see differences in the > butterflies > pictured but being a novice cannot differentiate individual > variation from > variation between the species/subspecies/whatever. The > references I have > are somewhat confusing. Specifically what field marks are > you using to > differentiate these butterflies? > > My question about field marks is not just for my own > curiosity but because > even with my limited knowledge of these insects I am involved > in teaching > others how to identify them in the field > > I fully appreciate that my question is hardest to those of > you intimately > familiar with these butterflies. You just know the butterfly > because it > simply looks like that butterfly. You no longer have to > think in terms of > field marks that beginners must use to get a handle on the > butterfly before > they can identify the butterfly by "looks". I am struggling > hard preparing > a learning CD of bird sounds from my recordings for my students. I am > unfortunately to the point where a song just sounds like the song of a > particular species. My student need pointers to listen for > until they reach > that level... which they are never going to do if I do not > quit looking at > butterflies and get the earphones back on so I at least have > the first CD > cut for them on Monday. > > Barb Beck > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu > [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On > Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > Sent: September 6, 2001 1:24 PM > To: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans > > > I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this > season. I have put > an image and a request for comments on > http://www.norbert.eboard.com under > the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of > butterflies to > deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and > interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to > inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. > The image is > large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your mouse > to copy the > image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes and > to see all four > specimens in one view. Enjoy. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Tue Sep 11 11:40:51 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:40:51 -0700 Subject: Pieris mogollon Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB495@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Looking for some local expertise/anyone with first hand knowledge of the New Mexico/Arizona area to answer the question whether Pieris 'marginalis' mogollon is single brooded or two brooded or ?? Also looking for documentation (published and unpublished) on the distribution of this butterfly. Especially interested in seeing any evidence for intergrading with the taxon macdunnoughi which reportedly has more than one brood. Thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 11 12:24:59 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:24:59 -0400 Subject: On the preservation of species Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279ECE@hqmail.gensym.com> In a similar vein to the post by Mary Beth, I'd like to chew on something public ally. We are expanding as a species, with no particular method to our procreation madness. As we continue to convert large sections of habitat into sterile or artificial life zones, I suppose we must be prepared to accept the possibility that we'll be displacing whole populations of interesting flora and fauna. So, the point is that there is probably a certain amount of species destruction that we have all grown to accept - if not vocally, then certainly by our lifestyles. I would argue, although I don't necessarily embrace this position, that as long as the damages are not catastrophic (elimination of estuaries, rain forest, etc.) to the environment, then this sort of loss is acceptable, and we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that we should police against it (less government IS better, BTW). Now, on the other hand it is clear that there will likely be huge and yet to be determined side effects of large scale habitat loss. Who's to say how delicately intertwined the whole thing truly is? Do our planet in fact depend on great diversity in order for the system to remain stable? Personally, I'd like to see us begin to act proactively, rather than reactively. I'd say it's probably a good thing to ensure that virtually every unique habitat is preserved in a large enough section to guarantee it's ongoing survival (at least from human consumption and sprawl). These sections of habitat should be networked together, with corridors sufficient to allow for movement. All human interaction should then be master planned to occur in pockets of concentrated population. There's plenty of room for all of us, if we just stop insisting on having so much "personal space". I fly a lot, and I hike a lot through all sorts of unique habitat. There's amazingly very little of it in many places, and there's no apparent concern about preventing it's continuing elimination. Parks and greenbelts are of little value. Native plants, many of which are considered unsightly, must prevail. I think of the incredible estuary that was once Southern California. An otherwise desert scrub land inundated with massive water drainages from the rather high mountain ranges that surround the coastland. This massive amount of water then collected in huge back bays which provided incredible protection for the breeding of large percentages of the birds, fish, and land mammals that inhabited the rest of the region. There were several species of butterfly that were quite common then that have been entirely eliminated or extirpated since. Of these, I think of the Coastal Arrowhead Blue (Glaucopsyche piasus) that used to enjoy the lowlands - but is now apparently long gone. Since the Arrowhead Blue still flies throughout much of montane California, I suppose it's not of great concern to many that the bug can no longer be found at sea level. Also, the loss of this bug is probably not significant to the well being of the planet - except by virtue of what else was lost in the process. But there are very few remnants of the estuaries that were once Southern California, and many of the native plants that thrived here (not to mention the native fauna) are virtually all but gone. Much of this destruction has occurred in my very short lifetime (42 years), and I recall very well the extent of countryside that I used to traverse when driving from my hometown Long Beach to Silverado Canyon - or San Diego (jeez, how much of that is gone now?). We should attempt to identify that portion of the planet that we can afford to destroy, deal with only that portion for our own inhabitation, and leave the rest connected so that it can be allowed to "evolve" (AKA "divine perturbation"). Instead, we're flying by the seat of our pants - listing and acting concerned until someone asks US to find another place to sit and spew. Mark Walker lamenting in Houston, wondering how and when I'll get home... > -----Original Message----- > From: mbpi at juno.com [mailto:mbpi at juno.com] > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 1:42 PM > To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: The Shortage of Taxonomists > > > Hi, all... > > There was an evocative article in the Sunday Chicago Tribune about the > lack of young biologists choosing taxonomy as a profession, opting > instead to become the more glamorous and lucrative "molecular > biologist" > which is currently in vogue. > > This article, along with the fact that the Chicago Field Museum is > expanding their collection storage in an effort to preserve > the thousands > of specimens that are currently being kept in less than "optimum" > conditions, got me thinking about what is fast becoming an > "antiquated" > professional pursuit in the field of Biology. > > At the risk of starting a "war," when one considers the > amount of "space" > required for storage of the thousands of collected specimens, and the > number of undescribed specimens alone within these collections > languishing for "want" of someone to acknowledge and define them, it > appears that the current state of taxonomic research is going > the way of > the dinosaur (!) This is not to underestimate the numbers of > dedicated > taxonomists that have greatly contributed their painstaking > expertise and > research to the overall knowledge and understanding of > species diversity > and ecosystem dynamics. I can't tell you how much I've > learned from this > listserv alone, or the awsome respect I have for the time-consuming > research represented by the many individuals on this listserv.... > > But in the context of reality and practicality: we live in a > world that > is on "fast forward," with little time to devote to what most people > would consider the "minutia" of our intertwined existence. > If one were > to examine the dynamics of populations of human beings alone, > it would be > pretty obvious that the dynamics of established populations > as recently > as 100 years ago, have changed considerably in a relatively > short amount > of time. Pockets of former immigrant neighborhoods have been > gentrified. > New immigrants from vastly different cultures have established new > neighborhoods of their own, replacing the once predominant ethnic > population. If we were something other than Homo sapiens, this change > would indicate a "red flag" to the population biologists as a > break down > in the once "established" ecological dynamics, for better or > worse...judged by human standards. > > Personally, I don't think it's possible to collect and define "every > living thing" on the planet earth, nor do I think it's "necessary." > Species come and species go, which is not necessarily a bad thing! > Certainly there are "indicator" species in the many diverse ecosystems > that can tell us which direction their environmental > existence is headed. > These are the species that I would focus my research on > rather than try > to determine all the resident species within a defined > ecosystem. If the > indicator specie's relationship to its environment hinges on some > undetermined factor...be it some other species of plant or insect or > bacteria, then that would be the criteria for determining why the > indicator species is doing well or doing poorly... > > This is not to underestimate the importance of recognizing > the presence > of "subspecies:" If several families of Indo-Pakistani, say, were to > move into a previously all Euro-descended neighborhood, this would > indicate a change in the dynamics of the former community, > along with all > the cultural differences and requirements that would make this a > "distinct group" of individuals within the previously established > ecosystem. The introduction of any change within an > established ecosystem > can also be interpreted as an "indicator" by the transitional > effect that > subsequently erupts. The importance of such a transitional effect can > only be determined by whether or not it becomes an actual established > impact on the prevailing "status quo." (Am I making sense, or am I > getting off on a tangent?!) > > I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's the predominant > "obvious" that asserts itself in the overall hierarchy of population > dynamics and is what is most easily grasped by those who > don't have the > time or inclination to intellectually pursue the intricacies of the > minutia. Somebody has to do the cooking, cleaning and caretaking!!! > > I'm sorry, but now that I'm out of a job, I've got too much time on my > hands to ruminate (!) > > M.B. Prondzinski > Evanston, IL > USA > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Tue Sep 11 12:38:57 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:38:57 -0400 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279ED0@hqmail.gensym.com> I spent three seasons in Vermont, covering virtually the entire state, and I never came across a single specimen of Chlosyne nycteis (Silvery Checkerspot). Lots of Chlosyne harrisii, though. It was in Tennessee that I ran into my first Silvery. I was like a kid in a candy store. Mark Walker. > -----Original Message----- > From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com] > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 10:18 AM > To: 'barb at birdnut.obtuse.com'; > Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; 'lepsl'; > 'altabugs' > Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > > > Someone asked me not long ago about how I distinguish a > Northern (cocyta) > from a Pearl (tharos) Crescent. I gave a brief account of the > field marks I > use (which I believe to be quite reliable), qualifying my > description with > 1. The males are much easier than the females, and 2. The > field marks are > much easier to distinguish in fresher than in worn specimens. > But, I should > have also pointed out that the field marks of cocyta males > "add up to a > look", which is exactly the terminology used by Klots to > describe the field > marks of Boloria freija. So again, sometimes it is better to > see the forest > rather than the trees, so to speak. Remembering that the > "look" is sometimes > the key and then learning to recognize it is useful. > > By the way, has anyone out there seen recently or know of a > locality in New > England for the Silvery Checkerspot? I last saw one in 1980 > in Lewiston, > Maine. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Barb Beck [SMTP:barb at birdnut.obtuse.com] > > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 12:55 PM > > To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca; 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > > Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > > > > Thanks Norbert for the pages on Pieris and Speyeria. > > > > Question to Norbert and others. I can see differences in > the butterflies > > pictured but being a novice cannot differentiate individual > variation from > > variation between the species/subspecies/whatever. The > references I have > > are somewhat confusing. Specifically what field marks are > you using to > > differentiate these butterflies? > > > > My question about field marks is not just for my own > curiosity but because > > even with my limited knowledge of these insects I am > involved in teaching > > others how to identify them in the field > > > > I fully appreciate that my question is hardest to those of > you intimately > > familiar with these butterflies. You just know the > butterfly because it > > simply looks like that butterfly. You no longer have to > think in terms of > > field marks that beginners must use to get a handle on the butterfly > > before > > they can identify the butterfly by "looks". I am struggling hard > > preparing > > a learning CD of bird sounds from my recordings for my > students. I am > > unfortunately to the point where a song just sounds like > the song of a > > particular species. My student need pointers to listen for > until they > > reach > > that level... which they are never going to do if I do not > quit looking at > > butterflies and get the earphones back on so I at least > have the first CD > > cut for them on Monday. > > > > Barb Beck > > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > > Barb.Beck at ualberta.ca > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu > [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On > > Behalf Of Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX > > Sent: September 6, 2001 1:24 PM > > To: 'lepsl'; 'altabugs' > > Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans > > > > > > I ran into some interesting Speyeria in southern BC this > season. I have > > put > > an image and a request for comments on > http://www.norbert.eboard.com under > > the heading of "BC Speyeria". This is not an easy group of > butterflies to > > deal with, in part due to the usual conflicting descriptions and > > interpretations presented in the literature and possibly also due to > > inadequacy in presently recognized species-level taxonomy. > The image is > > large when viewed on the web site. Right click on your > mouse to copy the > > image into your system and resize it to suit your tastes > and to see all > > four > > specimens in one view. Enjoy. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > > Phone 250-365-8610 > > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From ornithoptera at infonie.fr Tue Sep 11 13:09:06 2001 From: ornithoptera at infonie.fr (ornithoptera) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:09:06 +0200 Subject: NEW ARRIVALS UPDATED Message-ID: <1000228808.7897@remus.infonie.fr> ***NEW ARRIVALS FROM************************************** China, Cameroon, India and Indonesia. Amathusidae, Papilionidae, Pieridae, Nymphalidae, Saturnidae, Brahmaeidae... Consult http://www.ornithoptera.net ***INSECT FAIR******************************************** At Juvisy sur Orge (France) Next event 29 & 30 September 2001 Info : http://www.ornithoptera.net/bourgb.html ----------------------------------------------------------- ORNITHOPTERA 40, rue Emile Zola-62217-AGNY-FRANCE T?l / Fax : 03 21 51 57 42 E-mail : ornithoptera at ornithoptera.net ornithoptera at infonie.fr Web : www.ornithoptera.net ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Tue Sep 11 14:12:57 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:12:57 -0500 Subject: another trash name In-Reply-To: <003c01c13aa4$1c3ea680$1d1c58d9@server> References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB476@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911125112.00a91e30@mail.utexas.edu> For years I had used *l-album*, based on the statement in Langer, 1958 (Nordens Dagsommerfugle. Copenhagen) that *vau-album* ad been found to be a nomen nudum. I switched to *vau-album* when Miller & Brown, 1981 (A Catalogue/Checklist of the Butterflies of America North of Mexico. Lep. Soc. Mem. 2) chose to use *vau-album*. I assumed they had re-evaluated the original sources and had come to the conclusion that it was technically not a nomen nudum. They did not present details and do not mention *l-album*. Perhaps they followed Higgins, 1975 (The Classification of European Butterflies. London. Collins) who choses to use *vau-album*, without presenting reasoning. Kudrna, 1986 (Butterflies of Europe. V. 8. Wiesbaden, AULA) uses *l-album* without presenting the reason. This flip-flop history indicates the importance of examining original sources - becoming more and more difficult as our libraries move them into deep storage or dispose of them as no longer relevant to modern research. ............Chris Durden At 11:28 AM 9/11/2001 +0200, you wrote: >Ko?ak, 1981 merely repeated what _Stichel in Seitz, 1909-09_, >Die Gross-Schmetterlinge der Erde (1) >1. Die Palaearktischen Tagfalter. >p. 206 : >"Polygonia l-album (= vau-album Schiff., nom. nud.)" >had already published. >This has apparently been neglected/forgotten for over 70 years. >So, you're not the only ones ... > >Guy. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX >To: 'lepsl' ; 'altabugs' > >Sent: maandag 10 september 2001 19:24 >Subject: another trash name > > > > Just remembered this gem. Nymphalis vau-album is another violator of the > > code. I remember Joe Belicek mentioning to me some 12 or so years ago that > > vau-album is a nomen nudum (naked name). Sadly I forgot to follow up on >that > > advice so we ended up using it in Alberta Butterflies. But it is now >widely > > known that we need to use the species name l-album Esper (1780). This was > > pointed out Kocak in Priamus twenty years ago but it has taken a while for > > us to wake up and smell the coffee. The genus name is also very suspect >from > > a taxonomic view even tho it is OK from a nomenclature perspective. A >truely > > excellent piece of work by Nylin et al 2001 presents sufficient reasons to > > cause me to place it in the genus Polygonia. People who like very narrowly > > defined monotyypic genera will want to place it in Roddia. Nymphalis does > > not appear to be defensible any longer. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > > Phone 250-365-8610 > > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Tue Sep 11 14:20:52 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:20:52 -0500 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris In-Reply-To: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EC3@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911131651.00a90550@mail.utexas.edu> For distinguishing (in the field) small individuals of *Speyeria coronis* subspp. from similar-appearing average-sized *Speyeria "zerene"* subspp. I find body odor is a good key character. These small *coronis* smell like the other *coronis*, not like the *zerene*. ............Chris Durden At 09:06 AM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Barbara asked about field marks. I'm not sure which butterflies she's >specifically referring to (I think it's the Speyeria that Norbert has on his >e-Board), but I can say that she's not the only one who struggles with these >identifications. The Fritillaries I enjoyed in Oregon recently were also >virtually impossible to separate. There's no question that there are >various forms on the wing - especially when you consider both the ventral >and dorsal views (which Norbert's page does not show), but there are also >very many similarities. Size is a factor, along with the coloration (and >extent of scaling) of the disc on the ventral hindwing. The degree and >pattern of black scaling on the dorsal forewing is a good identifier, as >well as the extent of silver spotting. The size and coloration of the >submarginal band on the ventral hindwing is also a good identifier. Of >course, one would like to think that identification might be as simple as >knowing your location - but that isn't always enough. I, too, ran into what >I'm sure map to multiple "subspecies" of S. zerene. With that much >variation, it's difficult to isolate the differences. > >I did witness a number of mating pairs - and I think that outside of >bringing them into captivity, it's only through field observation that we >can gain any insight. It would appear that there is no cross breeding >amongst species, but I can't prove that with my field observations alone. > >It's tempting to consider the possibility that all of these bugs are the >same critter. On the other hand, it's truly overwhelming when you stumble >into a Fritillary frenzy and you consider the possibility that they might >just in fact all be different. I saw at least three frits that day which >were totally unique from all of the others. When it's one in thousands >you're looking at, you can't hardly afford to ignore even a single one. > >In 90 degree F. plus heat, it's not for the faint hearted, that's for sure. > >Mark Walker ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Tue Sep 11 14:35:19 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:35:19 -0500 Subject: On the preservation of species In-Reply-To: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279ECE@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911133020.00a7b780@mail.utexas.edu> Mark, You are quite correct about the magnitude of our changing of our habitats. We are indeed changing our niche. Our offspring that prosper will be those who do well in a niche that was not ours. There is a good chance that they may turn out to by different from us, perhaps even inhuman! This is evolution in progress. You may have to drive home on the back roads! ..........Chris Durden At 12:24 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote: >In a similar vein to the post by Mary Beth, I'd like to chew on something >public ally. We are expanding as a species, with no particular method to >our procreation madness. As we continue to convert large sections of >habitat into sterile or artificial life zones, I suppose we must be prepared >to accept the possibility that we'll be displacing whole populations of >interesting flora and fauna. So, the point is that there is probably a >certain amount of species destruction that we have all grown to accept - if >not vocally, then certainly by our lifestyles. I would argue, although I >don't necessarily embrace this position, that as long as the damages are not >catastrophic (elimination of estuaries, rain forest, etc.) to the >environment, then this sort of loss is acceptable, and we shouldn't fool >ourselves into thinking that we should police against it (less government IS >better, BTW). > >Now, on the other hand it is clear that there will likely be huge and yet to >be determined side effects of large scale habitat loss. Who's to say how >delicately intertwined the whole thing truly is? Do our planet in fact >depend on great diversity in order for the system to remain stable? > >Personally, I'd like to see us begin to act proactively, rather than >reactively. I'd say it's probably a good thing to ensure that virtually >every unique habitat is preserved in a large enough section to guarantee >it's ongoing survival (at least from human consumption and sprawl). These >sections of habitat should be networked together, with corridors sufficient >to allow for movement. All human interaction should then be master planned >to occur in pockets of concentrated population. There's plenty of room for >all of us, if we just stop insisting on having so much "personal space". > >I fly a lot, and I hike a lot through all sorts of unique habitat. There's >amazingly very little of it in many places, and there's no apparent concern >about preventing it's continuing elimination. Parks and greenbelts are of >little value. Native plants, many of which are considered unsightly, must >prevail. > >I think of the incredible estuary that was once Southern California. An >otherwise desert scrub land inundated with massive water drainages from the >rather high mountain ranges that surround the coastland. This massive >amount of water then collected in huge back bays which provided incredible >protection for the breeding of large percentages of the birds, fish, and >land mammals that inhabited the rest of the region. There were several >species of butterfly that were quite common then that have been entirely >eliminated or extirpated since. Of these, I think of the Coastal Arrowhead >Blue (Glaucopsyche piasus) that used to enjoy the lowlands - but is now >apparently long gone. Since the Arrowhead Blue still flies throughout much >of montane California, I suppose it's not of great concern to many that the >bug can no longer be found at sea level. Also, the loss of this bug is >probably not significant to the well being of the planet - except by virtue >of what else was lost in the process. But there are very few remnants of >the estuaries that were once Southern California, and many of the native >plants that thrived here (not to mention the native fauna) are virtually all >but gone. Much of this destruction has occurred in my very short lifetime >(42 years), and I recall very well the extent of countryside that I used to >traverse when driving from my hometown Long Beach to Silverado Canyon - or >San Diego (jeez, how much of that is gone now?). > >We should attempt to identify that portion of the planet that we can afford >to destroy, deal with only that portion for our own inhabitation, and leave >the rest connected so that it can be allowed to "evolve" (AKA "divine >perturbation"). Instead, we're flying by the seat of our pants - listing >and acting concerned until someone asks US to find another place to sit and >spew. > >Mark Walker >lamenting in Houston, wondering how and when I'll get home... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mbpi at juno.com [mailto:mbpi at juno.com] > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 1:42 PM > > To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu > > Subject: Re: The Shortage of Taxonomists > > > > > > Hi, all... > > > > There was an evocative article in the Sunday Chicago Tribune about the > > lack of young biologists choosing taxonomy as a profession, opting > > instead to become the more glamorous and lucrative "molecular > > biologist" > > which is currently in vogue. > > > > This article, along with the fact that the Chicago Field Museum is > > expanding their collection storage in an effort to preserve > > the thousands > > of specimens that are currently being kept in less than "optimum" > > conditions, got me thinking about what is fast becoming an > > "antiquated" > > professional pursuit in the field of Biology. > > > > At the risk of starting a "war," when one considers the > > amount of "space" > > required for storage of the thousands of collected specimens, and the > > number of undescribed specimens alone within these collections > > languishing for "want" of someone to acknowledge and define them, it > > appears that the current state of taxonomic research is going > > the way of > > the dinosaur (!) This is not to underestimate the numbers of > > dedicated > > taxonomists that have greatly contributed their painstaking > > expertise and > > research to the overall knowledge and understanding of > > species diversity > > and ecosystem dynamics. I can't tell you how much I've > > learned from this > > listserv alone, or the awsome respect I have for the time-consuming > > research represented by the many individuals on this listserv.... > > > > But in the context of reality and practicality: we live in a > > world that > > is on "fast forward," with little time to devote to what most people > > would consider the "minutia" of our intertwined existence. > > If one were > > to examine the dynamics of populations of human beings alone, > > it would be > > pretty obvious that the dynamics of established populations > > as recently > > as 100 years ago, have changed considerably in a relatively > > short amount > > of time. Pockets of former immigrant neighborhoods have been > > gentrified. > > New immigrants from vastly different cultures have established new > > neighborhoods of their own, replacing the once predominant ethnic > > population. If we were something other than Homo sapiens, this change > > would indicate a "red flag" to the population biologists as a > > break down > > in the once "established" ecological dynamics, for better or > > worse...judged by human standards. > > > > Personally, I don't think it's possible to collect and define "every > > living thing" on the planet earth, nor do I think it's "necessary." > > Species come and species go, which is not necessarily a bad thing! > > Certainly there are "indicator" species in the many diverse ecosystems > > that can tell us which direction their environmental > > existence is headed. > > These are the species that I would focus my research on > > rather than try > > to determine all the resident species within a defined > > ecosystem. If the > > indicator specie's relationship to its environment hinges on some > > undetermined factor...be it some other species of plant or insect or > > bacteria, then that would be the criteria for determining why the > > indicator species is doing well or doing poorly... > > > > This is not to underestimate the importance of recognizing > > the presence > > of "subspecies:" If several families of Indo-Pakistani, say, were to > > move into a previously all Euro-descended neighborhood, this would > > indicate a change in the dynamics of the former community, > > along with all > > the cultural differences and requirements that would make this a > > "distinct group" of individuals within the previously established > > ecosystem. The introduction of any change within an > > established ecosystem > > can also be interpreted as an "indicator" by the transitional > > effect that > > subsequently erupts. The importance of such a transitional effect can > > only be determined by whether or not it becomes an actual established > > impact on the prevailing "status quo." (Am I making sense, or am I > > getting off on a tangent?!) > > > > I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's the predominant > > "obvious" that asserts itself in the overall hierarchy of population > > dynamics and is what is most easily grasped by those who > > don't have the > > time or inclination to intellectually pursue the intricacies of the > > minutia. Somebody has to do the cooking, cleaning and caretaking!!! > > > > I'm sorry, but now that I'm out of a job, I've got too much time on my > > hands to ruminate (!) > > > > M.B. Prondzinski > > Evanston, IL > > USA > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Tue Sep 11 14:36:01 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:36:01 -0400 Subject: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EC3@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <00df01c13af0$9be93ac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Since I have spent a lot of time in the far tip of western North Carolina this year I have had the opportunity to observe a large number of Speyeria in that region at all mid to high elevations. Although this is well south of the known range of S. atlantis populations, I have been looking for smaller dark individuals in the "crowd" that might be that. While no recognizable atlantis segregate have turned up I have collected a small series of a "form" (both males and females) of a small dark Speyeria that I am not entirely comfortable in referring to Speyeria aphrodite cullasaja. Many cullasaja are very dark but there is a look and size to these odd individuals that solicits investigation. I just thought the first specimen was an aberration. Then I began to find more. Always small and always very dark but with wide ventral light band on the hind wing. Cullasaja has within it the normal subspecies variation of light to dark forms found in Aphrodite everywhere. The lightest cullasaja are just about like the darkest individuals of nominate aphrodite in the northeast US. But, both the dorsally light and dark forms of cullasaja have not to narrow light banding on the HW ventral margin. And when the band in wider it is diffuse and not sharp where it meets the basal color. In these odd specimens the band is wide, very light, and changes sharply at the row of silver spots at the edge of the basal dark brown. No conclusions, just observations. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Walker" Subject: RE: Speyeria Shenanigans and Pieris > Barbara asked about field marks. I'm not sure which butterflies she's > specifically referring to (I think it's the Speyeria that Norbert has on his > e-Board), but I can say that she's not the only one who struggles with these > identifications. The Fritillaries I enjoyed in Oregon recently were also > virtually impossible to separate. There's no question that there are > various forms on the wing - especially when you consider both the ventral > and dorsal views (which Norbert's page does not show), but there are also > very many similarities. Size is a factor, along with the coloration (and > extent of scaling) of the disc on the ventral hindwing. The degree and > pattern of black scaling on the dorsal forewing is a good identifier, as > well as the extent of silver spotting. The size and coloration of the > submarginal band on the ventral hindwing is also a good identifier. Of > course, one would like to think that identification might be as simple as > knowing your location - but that isn't always enough. I, too, ran into what > I'm sure map to multiple "subspecies" of S. zerene. With that much > variation, it's difficult to isolate the differences. > > I did witness a number of mating pairs - and I think that outside of > bringing them into captivity, it's only through field observation that we > can gain any insight. It would appear that there is no cross breeding > amongst species, but I can't prove that with my field observations alone. > > It's tempting to consider the possibility that all of these bugs are the > same critter. On the other hand, it's truly overwhelming when you stumble > into a Fritillary frenzy and you consider the possibility that they might > just in fact all be different. I saw at least three frits that day which > were totally unique from all of the others. When it's one in thousands > you're looking at, you can't hardly afford to ignore even a single one. > > In 90 degree F. plus heat, it's not for the faint hearted, that's for sure. > > Mark Walker > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Tue Sep 11 14:46:20 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:46:20 -0400 Subject: Pieris mogollon References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB495@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <00ea01c13af2$0c8abc80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> I have seen specimens of mogollon from July and August - so I assume that is a second or multiple brood. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" To: "'lepsl'" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:40 AM Subject: Pieris mogollon > Looking for some local expertise/anyone with first hand knowledge of the New > Mexico/Arizona area to answer the question whether Pieris 'marginalis' > mogollon is single brooded or two brooded or ?? Also looking for > documentation (published and unpublished) on the distribution of this > butterfly. Especially interested in seeing any evidence for intergrading > with the taxon macdunnoughi which reportedly has more than one brood. > Thanks. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From sorena at snet.net Tue Sep 11 19:41:44 2001 From: sorena at snet.net (Stephen J. Orena) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:41:44 GMT Subject: Looking for a good Moth id book Message-ID: <3B9EA367.B59E1AC1@snet.net> Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Wed Sep 12 05:15:59 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 05:15:59 -0400 Subject: On the preservation of species References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010911133020.00a7b780@mail.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <3B9F27CE.4489F0D2@eohsi.rutgers.edu> I found "Walker's Lament" very moving and hope he got home in a timely fashion. Michael Gochfeld "Chris J. Durden" wrote: > Mark, > You are quite correct about the magnitude of our changing of our > habitats. We are indeed changing our niche. Our offspring that prosper will > be those who do well in a niche that was not ours. There is a good chance > that they may turn out to by different from us, perhaps even inhuman! This > is evolution in progress. > You may have to drive home on the back roads! > ..........Chris Durden > > At 12:24 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote: > >In a similar vein to the post by Mary Beth, I'd like to chew on something > >public ally. We are expanding as a species, with no particular method to > >our procreation madness. As we continue to convert large sections of > >habitat into sterile or artificial life zones, I suppose we must be prepared > >to accept the possibility that we'll be displacing whole populations of > >interesting flora and fauna. So, the point is that there is probably a > >certain amount of species destruction that we have all grown to accept - if > >not vocally, then certainly by our lifestyles. I would argue, although I > >don't necessarily embrace this position, that as long as the damages are not > >catastrophic (elimination of estuaries, rain forest, etc.) to the > >environment, then this sort of loss is acceptable, and we shouldn't fool > >ourselves into thinking that we should police against it (less government IS > >better, BTW). > > > >Now, on the other hand it is clear that there will likely be huge and yet to > >be determined side effects of large scale habitat loss. Who's to say how > >delicately intertwined the whole thing truly is? Do our planet in fact > >depend on great diversity in order for the system to remain stable? > > > >Personally, I'd like to see us begin to act proactively, rather than > >reactively. I'd say it's probably a good thing to ensure that virtually > >every unique habitat is preserved in a large enough section to guarantee > >it's ongoing survival (at least from human consumption and sprawl). These > >sections of habitat should be networked together, with corridors sufficient > >to allow for movement. All human interaction should then be master planned > >to occur in pockets of concentrated population. There's plenty of room for > >all of us, if we just stop insisting on having so much "personal space". > > > >I fly a lot, and I hike a lot through all sorts of unique habitat. There's > >amazingly very little of it in many places, and there's no apparent concern > >about preventing it's continuing elimination. Parks and greenbelts are of > >little value. Native plants, many of which are considered unsightly, must > >prevail. > > > >I think of the incredible estuary that was once Southern California. An > >otherwise desert scrub land inundated with massive water drainages from the > >rather high mountain ranges that surround the coastland. This massive > >amount of water then collected in huge back bays which provided incredible > >protection for the breeding of large percentages of the birds, fish, and > >land mammals that inhabited the rest of the region. There were several > >species of butterfly that were quite common then that have been entirely > >eliminated or extirpated since. Of these, I think of the Coastal Arrowhead > >Blue (Glaucopsyche piasus) that used to enjoy the lowlands - but is now > >apparently long gone. Since the Arrowhead Blue still flies throughout much > >of montane California, I suppose it's not of great concern to many that the > >bug can no longer be found at sea level. Also, the loss of this bug is > >probably not significant to the well being of the planet - except by virtue > >of what else was lost in the process. But there are very few remnants of > >the estuaries that were once Southern California, and many of the native > >plants that thrived here (not to mention the native fauna) are virtually all > >but gone. Much of this destruction has occurred in my very short lifetime > >(42 years), and I recall very well the extent of countryside that I used to > >traverse when driving from my hometown Long Beach to Silverado Canyon - or > >San Diego (jeez, how much of that is gone now?). > > > >We should attempt to identify that portion of the planet that we can afford > >to destroy, deal with only that portion for our own inhabitation, and leave > >the rest connected so that it can be allowed to "evolve" (AKA "divine > >perturbation"). Instead, we're flying by the seat of our pants - listing > >and acting concerned until someone asks US to find another place to sit and > >spew. > > > >Mark Walker > >lamenting in Houston, wondering how and when I'll get home... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: mbpi at juno.com [mailto:mbpi at juno.com] > > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 1:42 PM > > > To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu > > > Subject: Re: The Shortage of Taxonomists > > > > > > > > > Hi, all... > > > > > > There was an evocative article in the Sunday Chicago Tribune about the > > > lack of young biologists choosing taxonomy as a profession, opting > > > instead to become the more glamorous and lucrative "molecular > > > biologist" > > > which is currently in vogue. > > > > > > This article, along with the fact that the Chicago Field Museum is > > > expanding their collection storage in an effort to preserve > > > the thousands > > > of specimens that are currently being kept in less than "optimum" > > > conditions, got me thinking about what is fast becoming an > > > "antiquated" > > > professional pursuit in the field of Biology. > > > > > > At the risk of starting a "war," when one considers the > > > amount of "space" > > > required for storage of the thousands of collected specimens, and the > > > number of undescribed specimens alone within these collections > > > languishing for "want" of someone to acknowledge and define them, it > > > appears that the current state of taxonomic research is going > > > the way of > > > the dinosaur (!) This is not to underestimate the numbers of > > > dedicated > > > taxonomists that have greatly contributed their painstaking > > > expertise and > > > research to the overall knowledge and understanding of > > > species diversity > > > and ecosystem dynamics. I can't tell you how much I've > > > learned from this > > > listserv alone, or the awsome respect I have for the time-consuming > > > research represented by the many individuals on this listserv.... > > > > > > But in the context of reality and practicality: we live in a > > > world that > > > is on "fast forward," with little time to devote to what most people > > > would consider the "minutia" of our intertwined existence. > > > If one were > > > to examine the dynamics of populations of human beings alone, > > > it would be > > > pretty obvious that the dynamics of established populations > > > as recently > > > as 100 years ago, have changed considerably in a relatively > > > short amount > > > of time. Pockets of former immigrant neighborhoods have been > > > gentrified. > > > New immigrants from vastly different cultures have established new > > > neighborhoods of their own, replacing the once predominant ethnic > > > population. If we were something other than Homo sapiens, this change > > > would indicate a "red flag" to the population biologists as a > > > break down > > > in the once "established" ecological dynamics, for better or > > > worse...judged by human standards. > > > > > > Personally, I don't think it's possible to collect and define "every > > > living thing" on the planet earth, nor do I think it's "necessary." > > > Species come and species go, which is not necessarily a bad thing! > > > Certainly there are "indicator" species in the many diverse ecosystems > > > that can tell us which direction their environmental > > > existence is headed. > > > These are the species that I would focus my research on > > > rather than try > > > to determine all the resident species within a defined > > > ecosystem. If the > > > indicator specie's relationship to its environment hinges on some > > > undetermined factor...be it some other species of plant or insect or > > > bacteria, then that would be the criteria for determining why the > > > indicator species is doing well or doing poorly... > > > > > > This is not to underestimate the importance of recognizing > > > the presence > > > of "subspecies:" If several families of Indo-Pakistani, say, were to > > > move into a previously all Euro-descended neighborhood, this would > > > indicate a change in the dynamics of the former community, > > > along with all > > > the cultural differences and requirements that would make this a > > > "distinct group" of individuals within the previously established > > > ecosystem. The introduction of any change within an > > > established ecosystem > > > can also be interpreted as an "indicator" by the transitional > > > effect that > > > subsequently erupts. The importance of such a transitional effect can > > > only be determined by whether or not it becomes an actual established > > > impact on the prevailing "status quo." (Am I making sense, or am I > > > getting off on a tangent?!) > > > > > > I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's the predominant > > > "obvious" that asserts itself in the overall hierarchy of population > > > dynamics and is what is most easily grasped by those who > > > don't have the > > > time or inclination to intellectually pursue the intricacies of the > > > minutia. Somebody has to do the cooking, cleaning and caretaking!!! > > > > > > I'm sorry, but now that I'm out of a job, I've got too much time on my > > > hands to ruminate (!) > > > > > > M.B. Prondzinski > > > Evanston, IL > > > USA > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From birdcr at concentric.net Thu Sep 13 20:47:12 2001 From: birdcr at concentric.net (Randy Emmitt) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:47:12 -0400 Subject: mystery cat on willow? Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010913204314.0285de30@pop3.concentric.net> Folks, A mild distraction from what is going on in the world. Last week I found several of these caterpillars on Black Willow near my pond in Durham, NC. I managed one nice photo and its at http://www.rlephoto.com/cats/mysterycat010.jpg I`m fairly sure its some kind of looper caterpillar but not which one. It was around 2 1/2 inches long. Thanks for any help! Randy Emmitt Rougemont, NC Randy Emmitt Photography http://www.rlephoto.com Carolina Butterfly Society webmaster http://www.carolinabutterflysociety.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca Fri Sep 14 07:51:28 2001 From: tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca (Thomas, Tony) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:51:28 -0400 Subject: Moth Report Message-ID: Fellow moth enthusiasts: The following publication is available, free of charge, by e-mail request to schevari at nrcan.gc.ca or by written request to: S. Chevari, Natural Resources Canada, Canadian Forest Service-Atlantic Forestry Centre, P.O. Box 4000, Fredericton, NB, E3B 5P7, CANADA Please do not send reprint requests to me. Thomas, A.W. 2001. Moth diversity in a northeastern, North American, red spruce forest. I. Baseline study. Information Report M-X-210E, Forest Biodiversity Network. 42 pages, including an 11 page checklist of species. Tony Dr. A.W. Thomas Research Scientist Canadian Forest Service - Atlantic Forestry Centre Natural Resources Canada PO Box 4000 1350 Regent Street Fredericton, NB E3B 5P7 e-mail: tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca 'phone (506) 452-3523 FAX (506) 452-3525 Illustrated Checklist of Fundy National Park Moths: http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/family_s-e.html Giant Silkmoths of Fundy National Park: http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/family-e.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From bimi at dlc.fi Fri Sep 14 10:08:45 2001 From: bimi at dlc.fi (Marko Laakkonen & Pauliina Ehnqvist) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:08:45 +0300 Subject: ID needed Message-ID: <9nt36h$hha$1@tron.sci.fi> Please have a look at my butterfly pictures and help me identify them. Most are from Uganda. The address: http://www.saunalahti.fi/bimi/Butterflies/butterflies.html Much obliged, Marko ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From josylvestre at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 14 17:39:19 2001 From: josylvestre at sympatico.ca (J o n a t h a n S y l v e s t r e) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:39:19 -0400 Subject: E. imperialis problems : viruses ? need help Message-ID: I have 20 to 30 3 or 4 instar caterpillar feeding on Pinus strobus. Today, I saw that 4 of them look like they were killed by a Hemiptera. But this is not the case because I rear them inside. Is it possible that viruses killed them ? What should I do to save the others ?is it too late? :( ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mungojeerie at hotmail.com Sat Sep 15 02:29:38 2001 From: mungojeerie at hotmail.com (Ryan Vandermoor) Date: 15 Sep 2001 06:29:38 GMT Subject: E. imperialis problems : viruses ? need help References: Message-ID: <9nusgi$fqn$0@206.97.58.230> I have had larva that look as healthy as ever one day then the next, limp sacs.... I assume that this is some type of nuclear polyhedrosis virus but am not sure.... if your not familiar with nuclear polyhedrosis virus .... its a virus which replicates within the cells of its host causing the cells to eventually burst. not pretty.... plenty of info on the web about it though... commonly associated with the forest tent caterpillar, Malacosoma disstria. But as I understand can effect any larva. Personally I don't have any ideas other than hope for the best... hopefully someone else can help..... best of luck, Ryan Vandermoor mungojeerie at hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From vapassoa at copper.net Sat Sep 15 12:52:05 2001 From: vapassoa at copper.net (Valerie Passoa) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:52:05 -0400 Subject: Caterpillar websites Message-ID: <003501c13e06$c2358da0$50491cd8@computer> Hello, The following website, http://www-cache.socs.uts.edu.au/~don/larvae/larvae.html, is entitled "Caterpillars: Especially Australian Ones". The site includes a ton of information and color photographs. Scroll down to find a wealth of links from all over the world for specifically caterpillars and Lepidoptera in general. Regards, Valerie Passoa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010915/38231743/attachment.html From josylvestre at sympatico.ca Sun Sep 16 08:52:32 2001 From: josylvestre at sympatico.ca (J o n a t h a n S y l v e s t r e) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:52:32 -0400 Subject: E. imperialis problems : viruses ? need help References: Message-ID: "J o n a t h a n S y l v e s t r e" a ?crit dans le message news: Lcvo7.25619$Ye2.3284115 at news20.bellglobal.com... > I have 20 to 30 3 or 4 instar caterpillar feeding on Pinus strobus. Today, I > saw that 4 of them look like they were killed by a Hemiptera. But this is > not the case because I rear them inside. Is it possible that viruses killed > them ? > > What should I do to save the others ?is it too late? :( > > For those that interest, I've found something about those viruses http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2153/np.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From simon at butterfly-guide.co.uk Sun Sep 16 14:42:42 2001 From: simon at butterfly-guide.co.uk (Simon Coombes) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:42:42 +0100 Subject: ID request Message-ID: <000701c13edf$5f563980$0782f8d4@net> Hi A couple of ID requests if anyone has the knowledge and time. Two European Grizzled skippers, Pyrgus species which I'm not sure about. Pictures here: http://www.butterfly-guide.co.uk/species/skippers/to_id.htm Thanks Simon Simon Coombes 1 Park Street, Plymouth, PL3 4BL, UK 01752 607854 http://www.butterfly-guide.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spruance at infinet.com Mon Sep 17 11:02:20 2001 From: spruance at infinet.com (Hi Y'all) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:02:20 -0400 Subject: Looking for a good Moth id book References: <3B9EA367.B59E1AC1@snet.net> Message-ID: <3ba61052$0$1530$ac966d11@news.raex.com> You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is especially good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. Louis's book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this geographical region. ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies of Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be common on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put in a want. I've this with much success over the years. Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in the air. Eric "Stephen J. Orena" wrote in message news:3B9EA367.B59E1AC1 at snet.net... > Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've > tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, > however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another > book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern > North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or > Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. > > Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mikayak at mdo.net Mon Sep 17 12:26:11 2001 From: mikayak at mdo.net (Mike Soukup) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:26:11 -0400 Subject: Looking for a good Moth id book References: <3B9EA367.B59E1AC1@snet.net> <3ba61052$0$1530$ac966d11@news.raex.com> Message-ID: <3BA62423.262651B8@mdo.net> I find that, while it is nice that Handfield's book has the photos and the Hodge's numbers....it lacks the latin names. You would think the people who wrote the books never actually use them for ID. For Covell's book, I had to go in and hand number all of the plates with the Hodges numbers. For Handfield, I had to take my database (in which I have been busy typing in ALL of the names and numbers from the checklist), print it off, and put all of the NAMES next to the plates (I put all of the plates in see thru page holders and put them in a binder) . It's rather frustrating on both counts. (Note to Mr. Covell and Mr' Handfield: we need both the latin names and the Hodges numbers right there next to the image) Also, I have found that you also need Covell in many cases as the colors in Handfield aren't all that good. I try to do separate ID's using both books. If they come out the same....then I call it a day. If they come out differently....well then the research starts. And, if it "don't come out at all", I put them in a special drawer to be photographed, uploaded to the web, and placed before this crowd - where most of you good folks race to beat each other to the id's. And, I have a few of them to be posted VERY soon (who's the Notodontid expert out there???) Hi Y'all wrote: > You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is especially > good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. Louis's > book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with > illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this geographical > region. > > ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 > > Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca > > Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies of > Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be common > on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put in a > want. I've this with much success over the years. > > Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in the > air. > > Eric > > "Stephen J. Orena" wrote in message > news:3B9EA367.B59E1AC1 at snet.net... > > Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've > > tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, > > however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another > > book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern > > North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or > > Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. > > > > Steve > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010917/3ef087ae/attachment.html From spruance at infinet.com Mon Sep 17 20:55:00 2001 From: spruance at infinet.com (Hi Y'all) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:55:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for a good Moth id book References: <3B9EA367.B59E1AC1@snet.net> <3ba61052$0$1530$ac966d11@news.raex.com> <3BA62423.262651B8@mdo.net> Message-ID: <003a01c13fdc$8be4fec0$922bfea9@eric> Bummer. My copy has Latin names. And the color is excellent. I'd return a defective copy for a replacement. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Soukup To: spruance at infinet.com Cc: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book I find that, while it is nice that Handfield's book has the photos and the Hodge's numbers....it lacks the latin names. You would think the people who wrote the books never actually use them for ID. For Covell's book, I had to go in and hand number all of the plates with the Hodges numbers. For Handfield, I had to take my database (in which I have been busy typing in ALL of the names and numbers from the checklist), print it off, and put all of the NAMES next to the plates (I put all of the plates in see thru page holders and put them in a binder) . It's rather frustrating on both counts. (Note to Mr. Covell and Mr' Handfield: we need both the latin names and the Hodges numbers right there next to the image) Also, I have found that you also need Covell in many cases as the colors in Handfield aren't all that good. I try to do separate ID's using both books. If they come out the same....then I call it a day. If they come out differently....well then the research starts. And, if it "don't come out at all", I put them in a special drawer to be photographed, uploaded to the web, and placed before this crowd - where most of you good folks race to beat each other to the id's. And, I have a few of them to be posted VERY soon (who's the Notodontid expert out there???) Hi Y'all wrote: You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is especially good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. Louis's book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this geographical region. ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies of Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be common on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put in a want. I've this with much success over the years. Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in the air. Eric "Stephen J. Orena" wrote in message news:3B9EA367.B59E1AC1 at snet.net... > Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've > tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, > however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another > book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern > North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or > Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. > > Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010917/55d75eae/attachment.html From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Mon Sep 17 21:44:25 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:44:25 -0400 Subject: Looking for a good Moth id book References: <3B9EA367.B59E1AC1@snet.net> <3ba61052$0$1530$ac966d11@news.raex.com> <3BA62423.262651B8@mdo.net> <003a01c13fdc$8be4fec0$922bfea9@eric> Message-ID: <000801c13fe3$743c00a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> I think he was just referring to the plates - which only have numbers and leaves one with the hassle of having to go back to the text to find the associated name. Ron Gatrelle PS... If PhyloCode goes full blast things will just have numbers period. So we can get used to it. Long lists of numbers for the splitters and hunks of broad common names for the lumpers. Is this the future? :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Hi Y'all To: Mike Soukup Cc: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book Bummer. My copy has Latin names. And the color is excellent. I'd return a defective copy for a replacement. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Soukup To: spruance at infinet.com Cc: leps-l at lists.yale.edu Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book I find that, while it is nice that Handfield's book has the photos and the Hodge's numbers....it lacks the latin names. You would think the people who wrote the books never actually use them for ID. For Covell's book, I had to go in and hand number all of the plates with the Hodges numbers. For Handfield, I had to take my database (in which I have been busy typing in ALL of the names and numbers from the checklist), print it off, and put all of the NAMES next to the plates (I put all of the plates in see thru page holders and put them in a binder) . It's rather frustrating on both counts. (Note to Mr. Covell and Mr' Handfield: we need both the latin names and the Hodges numbers right there next to the image) Also, I have found that you also need Covell in many cases as the colors in Handfield aren't all that good. I try to do separate ID's using both books. If they come out the same....then I call it a day. If they come out differently....well then the research starts. And, if it "don't come out at all", I put them in a special drawer to be photographed, uploaded to the web, and placed before this crowd - where most of you good folks race to beat each other to the id's. And, I have a few of them to be posted VERY soon (who's the Notodontid expert out there???) Hi Y'all wrote: You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is especially good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. Louis's book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this geographical region. ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies of Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be common on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put in a want. I've this with much success over the years. Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in the air. Eric "Stephen J. Orena" wrote in message news:3B9EA367.B59E1AC1 at snet.net... > Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've > tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, > however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another > book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern > North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or > Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. > > Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010917/b9ecb747/attachment.html From mikayak at mdo.net Mon Sep 17 22:17:07 2001 From: mikayak at mdo.net (Mike Soukup) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:17:07 -0400 Subject: ID-Notodontidae Message-ID: <3BA6AEA3.11C02C9C@mdo.net> Ok now....all of you "masters of the little grey moths" - I need your help. Last year I caught 3 Noto's in mid-august at my lights in Severn, MD (USA). I cannot figger out what these little buggers are. I'm sure somebody here can handle the job. If they turn out to be something easy (and in Covell and/or Handfield), I will call myself a dork and be embarrassed. But, I'm not totally stupid...and I have spent some time working on the ID's myself.....unless they are some "form" of another common Noto. Here's the web page for the photo. If you need another or better photos - email me, I can take them and email or post them. This is the first in a series of unknowns (for me....) http://www.mdonline.net/users/mikayak/notodontids-unknown.jpg thanks in advance...... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010917/116f4f87/attachment.html From jrlyons at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 18 05:59:42 2001 From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:59:42 -0500 Subject: Hi! Message-ID: <3BA71B0D.9D39F8BC@bellsouth.net> You guy see this? http://www.nature.com/nsu/010920/010920-5.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jrlyons at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 18 05:59:54 2001 From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:59:54 -0500 Subject: Hi! Message-ID: <3BA71B1A.99A38141@bellsouth.net> You guys see this? http://www.nature.com/nsu/010920/010920-5.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From pollinator at aol.comnospam Tue Sep 18 13:22:36 2001 From: pollinator at aol.comnospam (Dave Green) Date: 18 Sep 2001 17:22:36 GMT Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps Message-ID: <20010918132236.16331.00002079@mb-mq.aol.com> Closeup photos are the main feature of a new pollinator/plant database which has been started at The Pollination Home Page. I'm trying to document, as much as possible all visitors to flowers, including bees, leps, syrphid flies, beetles, etc. I'm primarily a bee person, and I have trouble identifying many of these, and I'm pretty much lost when it comes to leps, so many images will be going up without identification. If any lepidopterists want to take a shot at ID, and offer any other advice, I'd appreciate it. Here's one that has me stumped so far: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/bidens_laevis.htm I'm also going to be adding caterpillar/feed plant photos at this site: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/caterpillars/caterpillar.htm This is a brand new area for me, though I've often noted that caterpillars are beautiful and interesting photo subjects (and often much easier to photograph than their parents...). I hope you enjoy the photos, and if you can help, it will be appreciated. One of the reasons for this is to offer the images as a service to teachers and others who help educate people. As long as the use is nonprofit and educational, the images are available free of charge according to the terms at: http://pollinator.com/use_photos.htm If you want them for commercial use, please contact me. Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov Tue Sep 18 15:44:58 2001 From: TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov (Thomas Eichlin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:44:58 -0700 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps Message-ID: The moth is Helicoverpa zea (corn earworm), Noctuidae. Tom >>> Dave Green 09/18/01 10:22AM >>> Closeup photos are the main feature of a new pollinator/plant database which has been started at The Pollination Home Page. I'm trying to document, as much as possible all visitors to flowers, including bees, leps, syrphid flies, beetles, etc. I'm primarily a bee person, and I have trouble identifying many of these, and I'm pretty much lost when it comes to leps, so many images will be going up without identification. If any lepidopterists want to take a shot at ID, and offer any other advice, I'd appreciate it. Here's one that has me stumped so far: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/bidens_laevis.htm I'm also going to be adding caterpillar/feed plant photos at this site: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/caterpillars/caterpillar.htm This is a brand new area for me, though I've often noted that caterpillars are beautiful and interesting photo subjects (and often much easier to photograph than their parents...). I hope you enjoy the photos, and if you can help, it will be appreciated. One of the reasons for this is to offer the images as a service to teachers and others who help educate people. As long as the use is nonprofit and educational, the images are available free of charge according to the terms at: http://pollinator.com/use_photos.htm If you want them for commercial use, please contact me. Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov Tue Sep 18 15:51:16 2001 From: TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov (Thomas Eichlin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:51:16 -0700 Subject: moth ID Message-ID: I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. His moth feeding on the yellow flower is Helicoverpa zea (corn earworm), Noctuidae. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov Tue Sep 18 17:44:48 2001 From: TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov (Thomas Eichlin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:44:48 -0700 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps Message-ID: Liz, Yes, zea had been placed in Helicoverpa in 1965 by Hardwick. Poole, 1989, Lepidopterorum Catalogus, continued to use this combination in this world catalog of the Noctuidae. Tom >>> Liz Day 09/18/01 02:32PM >>> Not Heliothis zea? Name change? Liz >The moth is Helicoverpa zea (corn earworm), Noctuidae. > >Tom > >>>> Dave Green 09/18/01 10:22AM >>> > >Closeup photos are the main feature of a new pollinator/plant database which >has been started at The Pollination Home Page. I'm trying to document, as much >as possible all visitors to flowers, including bees, leps, syrphid flies, >beetles, etc. I'm primarily a bee person, and I have trouble identifying many >of these, and I'm pretty much lost when it comes to leps, so many images will >be going up without identification. If any lepidopterists want to take a shot >at ID, and offer any other advice, I'd appreciate it. > >Here's one that has me stumped so far: >http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/bidens_laevis.htm > >I'm also going to be adding caterpillar/feed plant photos at this site: >http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/caterpillars/caterpillar.htm >This is a brand new area for me, though I've often noted that caterpillars are >beautiful and interesting photo subjects (and often much easier to photograph >than their parents...). > > I hope you enjoy the photos, and if you can help, it will be appreciated. > > One of the reasons for this is to offer the images as a service to teachers >and others who help educate people. As long as the use is nonprofit and >educational, the images are available free of charge according to the terms at: >http://pollinator.com/use_photos.htm >If you want them for commercial use, please contact me. > > > > >Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA >The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com >Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions >presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rworth at oda.state.or.us Tue Sep 18 18:26:10 2001 From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:26:10 -0700 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps Message-ID: I didn't get through either. Rich Tom Eichlin wrote: >I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. His moth feeding on >the yellow flower is Helicoverpa zea (corn earworm), Noctuidae. > Tom Hi Dave, The sulphur butterfly is the Cloudless Sulphur, Phoebus(Phoebis?-check spelling) sennae. None of the three caterpillars shown as thumbnails become that butterfly. The first cat. on the left is for a different butterfly, the Buckeye, Junonia coenia. The other two are some kind of arctiid moths. Cheers, Rich > >I'm also going to be adding caterpillar/feed plant photos at this site: >http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/caterpillars/caterpillar.htm >This is a brand new area for me, though I've often noted that caterpillars are >beautiful and interesting photo subjects (and often much easier to photograph >than their parents...). Richard A. Worth Oregon Department of Agriculture Plant Division rworth at oda.state.or.us (503) 986-6461 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Wed Sep 19 01:10:33 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:10:33 -0400 Subject: 18th field report Message-ID: <004101c140c9$69727f00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> In some ways the last week seems like an eternity and yet it has been just 8 days. I was in the North Carolina mountains Tuesday the 18. Alone in the field it seemed nothing had changed - if that could only be true. I may make only one or two more trips to the Forest Service study site this year in Clay County. It had been three weeks since my last visit, which was a least a week longer than wanted. Three interesting observations then the species list. 1) A somewhat worn female Cercyonis pegala carolina was observe nectaring at Asters. At first I though it had just landed on one near me. But it proceeded to flit (fly would be a wrong descriptive term for this species) to 4 successive flower heads. I do not recall ever seeing an subspecies of pegala visiting flowers before. Anyone else? 2) I observed a male Polites peckius repeatedly trying to copulate with a female Euphyes vestris metacomet. I eventually lost track of these two. The male followed her around for the 4-5 minutes I was able to keep track of them. 3) I probably observed in excess of 50 Monarchs in Clay County. These were all very fresh and visiting flowers (mostly Goldenrods and Asters). They looked to be an emerging brood. This was at three sites in a three mile stretch along one road and associated clearings and roadway ditches. (Names in brief. Clay Co. NC 3100' to 3500') philenor (Pipevine) 2 troilus (Spicebush) 1 galucus (E. Tiger) 2 worn black females rapae (Cabbage) 4 Colias ( ? ) 1 white female nicippe (Sleepy) 2 lisa (Little Yellow) 1 eubule (Cloudless ) 2 females one "white" cecrops (Red-banded) 2 melinus (Gray) 2 comyntas (E. Tailed) dozens nigrior (Gulf Frit.) 3 claudia (Variegated) 2 cybele (Great Spangled) many - mostly females and worn. cullasaja (Cullasaja Frit.) less than 10 - all females diana 3 females tharos (Pearl ) several Phyciodes (Northern ?) odd ones vouchered (large with orange tipped antennae) Polygonia ( ? ) 1 fly by coenia (Buckeye) several plexippus (Monarch) 50+ sosybius (Carolina) 1 C. p. carolina (Carolina or Appalachian Wood Nymph) 2 females clarus (Silver-spotted) many horatius 1 male lherminier (Swathy) a few accius (Clouded) a few phyleus (Fiery) a few peckius several origines (Crossline) several campestris huron (Sachem) 1male metacomet (Dun) 2 ocola 2 33 taxa ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From beebuzz at kiva.net Wed Sep 19 01:20:36 2001 From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:20:36 -0500 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010919001707.00aaac40@b.pop.kiva.net> >>I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. >I didn't get through either. He has jiggered his email reply address. To mail him, you have to edit it from "@aol.comnospam" to "@aol.com". This is a common way of avoiding getting spam, although with some disadvantages as you can see. Liz ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From pollinator at aol.comnospam Wed Sep 19 05:33:49 2001 From: pollinator at aol.comnospam (Dave Green) Date: 19 Sep 2001 09:33:49 GMT Subject: moth ID References: Message-ID: <20010919053349.22521.00000292@mb-fc.aol.com> >I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. Look at the e-mail address and make the obvious changes. It's so the spam bots won't pick it up (hopefully). His moth feeding on the yellow >flower is Helicoverpa zea (corn earworm), Noctuidae. Ah, I think I've seen it in the cotton IPM traps. It never occurred to me that the adults would visit other flowers than cotton, so I didn't think of it. (Duh!) Is this the same species as bollworm, just a different common name, or are they very closely related species? Thanks for the help. Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From pollinator at aol.comnospam Wed Sep 19 05:26:59 2001 From: pollinator at aol.comnospam (Dave Green) Date: 19 Sep 2001 09:26:59 GMT Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010919001707.00aaac40@b.pop.kiva.net> Message-ID: <20010919052659.22521.00000290@mb-fc.aol.com> > >>I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. > > >I didn't get through either. > >He has jiggered his email reply address. To mail him, you have to edit it >from "@aol.comnospam" to "@aol.com". That's right, Liz. With all the blocks I've put up, they still come thru, 10-20 spams a day. I also (try to) block anyone who's sent me a virus. Thought it would be obvious. Should I add a note about it? Get one almost every day from Nigeria, that looks interesting, though....they say I could be rich...maybe I'll try it. Thank y'all for your help! I can't remember when I've had so much fun. These old brain cells are getting lots of stimulation. Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From AOLBuddyPics at aol.com Wed Sep 19 09:38:39 2001 From: AOLBuddyPics at aol.com (AOLBuddyPics at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:38:39 EDT Subject: Special Notice from AOL's "You've Got Pictures" Service Message-ID: <15f.11eb001.28d9f9df@aol.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010919/44491e74/attachment.html From colin.jones at mnr.gov.on.ca Wed Sep 19 09:49:38 2001 From: colin.jones at mnr.gov.on.ca (colin.jones at mnr.gov.on.ca) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:49:38 -0400 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps Message-ID: <3E33383796A3D411B6BA0008C7912DC035C597@rlc00aex007.rlc.gov.on.ca> > Here's one that has me stumped so far: > http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/bidens_laevis.htm Hi Dave, The humpbacked fly on the page is a member of the bee-fly family (Bombyliidae) in the genus "Lepidophora". So even though it is a fly you can see that there is relevance to this list since it shares a common root in the name - "Lepido". "Lepido" of course means "scale" and "phora", means "bearing". Although the scales are a little difficult to see in your photo, they can be seen quite well at: http://cedarcreek.umn.edu/insects/album/029040004ap.html Cheers, Colin Colin D. Jones Contract Biologist Ontario Natural Heritage Information Centre Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources 300 Water St., 2nd Floor N., P.O. Box 7000 Peterborough, Ontario K9J 8M5 Tel: 705-755-2166 Fax: 705-755-2168 colin.jones at mnr.gov.on.ca http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/nhic/nhic.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca Wed Sep 19 10:03:54 2001 From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:03:54 -0600 Subject: Irruptions Message-ID: <001c01c14113$fd355740$ae62a58e@allez123> This summer in southeast Saskatchewan three butterflies that may be seen here on occassion were found in vast numbers: Variegated Fritillary, Painted Lady (Vanessa cardui) and Checkered White. I was particularly fortunate in that I came across a "colony" of Checkered White in ditches filled with volunteer Alfalfa beside cultivated fields and cattle pastures going on for miles. Numbers were in the tens of thousands. This summer has been hot and dry with winds coming up from the southern U.S.A. The "traditional" view is that our summer weather comes from the west. But as the farm saying goes, "In a drought all signs fail." Martin Bailey, cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca Weyburn, SK., Canada. phone/fax 306-842-8936 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rworth at oda.state.or.us Wed Sep 19 11:27:55 2001 From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:27:55 -0700 Subject: moth ID In-Reply-To: <20010919053349.22521.00000292@mb-fc.aol.com> References: <20010919053349.22521.00000292@mb-fc.aol.com> Message-ID: Dave, Made the change this time! There are a few similar species of these noctuids. My first guess, when I saw the photo and the reference to cotton nearby, was Heliothis virescens, which is called by different common names depending on what it feeds on: Cotton Bollworm, Tomato Fruitworm, or Tobacco Budworm. At least that's how I learned it. I've also seen them often on petunias in gardens both in Calif. and Oregon. Tom has much more experience with noctuids than I do, so I'd go with him on this one. But some of the ones you see in the traps may still be virescens. Cheers, Rich > >I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. > >Look at the e-mail address and make the obvious changes. It's so the spam bots >won't pick it up (hopefully). > >His moth feeding on the yellow > >flower is Helicoverpa zea (corn earworm), Noctuidae. > > Ah, I think I've seen it in the cotton IPM traps. It never occurred to me >that the adults would visit other flowers than cotton, so I didn't >think of it. >(Duh!) > > Is this the same species as bollworm, just a different common name, or are >they very closely related species? > > Thanks for the help. > > > >Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA >The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com >Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions >presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > Richard A. Worth Oregon Department of Agriculture Plant Division rworth at oda.state.or.us (503) 986-6461 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From drdn at mail.utexas.edu Wed Sep 19 11:40:27 2001 From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:40:27 -0500 Subject: 18th field report In-Reply-To: <004101c140c9$69727f00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010919103337.00a91530@mail.utexas.edu> At 01:10 AM 9/19/2001 -0400, you (Ron G.) wrote: >proceeded to flit (fly would be a wrong descriptive term for this species) >to 4 successive flower heads. I do not recall ever seeing an subspecies of >pegala visiting flowers before. Anyone else? *C. "pegala" texana* regularly visits flowers of Frostweed in Central Texas. *C. "pegala" ino* and other species of *Cercyonis* visit Goldenrod and The-Dreaded-Spotted-Knapweed in Carbon Co., Montana. All these observations were in late summer and fall. The butterflies may have been in search of moisture rather than nectar, in dry habitat. ............Chris Durden ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Wed Sep 19 13:09:38 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:09:38 -0500 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010919001707.00aaac40@b.pop.kiva.net>, <20010919052659.22521.00000290@mb-fc.aol.com> Message-ID: <3BA8D152.7EB0E5C4@mail.mcn.org> Dave: I get some from Nigeria too occasionally I followed one up to where they wanted to meet me in Canada because they couldn't get a visa to the US. With all that money & political contacts, I doubt that was the reason. If they are so altruistic & honorable, why not invest the millions in some kind of Nigerian employment company like a conservation corp.? I sent one letter to the internet fraud website and they never answered, but I don't know why. it was either because: 1) the money is real, 2) I wasn't defrauded, 3) their scam analyst had seen it so many times he just glossed it over, or 4) he picked it up & is now retired in Bermuda. Bill Dave Green wrote: > > >>I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. > > > > >I didn't get through either. > > > >He has jiggered his email reply address. To mail him, you have to edit it > >from "@aol.comnospam" to "@aol.com". > > That's right, Liz. With all the blocks I've put up, they still come thru, > 10-20 spams a day. I also (try to) block anyone who's sent me a virus. > > Thought it would be obvious. Should I add a note about it? > > Get one almost every day from Nigeria, that looks interesting, though....they > say I could be rich...maybe I'll try it. > >  Thank y'all for your help! I can't remember when I've had so much fun. These > old brain cells are getting lots of stimulation. > > Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA > The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com > Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions > presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rlhardesty at risingwolf.com Wed Sep 19 16:21:04 2001 From: rlhardesty at risingwolf.com (Richard L. Hardesty) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:21:04 -0600 Subject: butterflies in Wyoming Message-ID: <3BA8FE30.E5AB2553@risingwolf.com> To anyone who has an interest: I've put "The Butterflies of the Laramie Mountains, Wyoming" by Hardesty & Groothuis on the Web at this address: http://risingwolf.com/html/BFLMT.htm Two other papers will follow -- when I manage to get around to it! -- Richard L. Hardesty ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rlhardesty at risingwolf.com Wed Sep 19 16:39:39 2001 From: rlhardesty at risingwolf.com (Richard L. Hardesty) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:39:39 -0600 Subject: Nigerian e-mails References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010919001707.00aaac40@b.pop.kiva.net>, <20010919052659.22521.00000290@mb-fc.aol.com> <3BA8D152.7EB0E5C4@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: <3BA9028B.8404E80B@risingwolf.com> Guys - These Nigerian e-mails you are getting are a known scam. Check it out at http://www.korova.com/virus/hoax20010729.htm#419 Hang on to your money!! -- R. L. Hardesty Bill Cornelius wrote: > Dave: > > I get some from Nigeria too occasionally I followed one up to where they wanted to > meet me in Canada because they couldn't get a visa to the US. With all that money > & political contacts, I doubt that was the reason. If they are so altruistic & > honorable, why not invest the millions in some kind of Nigerian employment company > like a conservation corp.? I sent one letter to the internet fraud website and > they never answered, but I don't know why. it was either because: 1) the money is > real, 2) I wasn't defrauded, 3) their scam analyst had seen it so many times he > just glossed it over, or 4) he picked it up & is now retired in Bermuda. > > Bill > > Dave Green wrote: > > > > >>I was unable to reply directly to Dave Green. > > > > > > >I didn't get through either. > > > > > >He has jiggered his email reply address. To mail him, you have to edit it > > >from "@aol.comnospam" to "@aol.com". > > > > That's right, Liz. With all the blocks I've put up, they still come thru, > > 10-20 spams a day. I also (try to) block anyone who's sent me a virus. > > > > Thought it would be obvious. Should I add a note about it? > > > > Get one almost every day from Nigeria, that looks interesting, though....they > > say I could be rich...maybe I'll try it. > > > >  Thank y'all for your help! I can't remember when I've had so much fun. These > > old brain cells are getting lots of stimulation. > > > > Pollinator at aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA > > The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com > > Disclaimer: Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions > > presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnjjk1 at uaf.edu Wed Sep 19 17:36:54 2001 From: fnjjk1 at uaf.edu (James Kruse) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:36:54 -0800 Subject: New photo database/unidentified leps In-Reply-To: <3BA8D152.7EB0E5C4@mail.mcn.org> Message-ID: on 9/19/01 9:09 AM, Bill Cornelius at billcor at mail.mcn.org wrote: > Dave: > > I get some from Nigeria too occasionally I followed one up to where they > wanted to meet me in Canada because they couldn't get a visa to the US. With > all that money & political contacts, I doubt that was the reason. If they are > so altruistic & honorable, why not invest the millions in some kind of > Nigerian employment company like a conservation corp.? I sent one letter to > the internet fraud website and they never answered, but I don't know why. it > was either because: 1) the money is real, 2) I wasn't defrauded, 3) their scam > analyst had seen it so many times he just glossed it over, or 4) he picked it > up & is now retired in Bermuda. > > Bill > This scam has been around for awhile. Here is some information. From: http://www.scambusters.com/Scambusters11.html Internet ScamBustersTM By Audri and Jim Lanford WZ.com Inc. Copyright 1996 WZ.com Inc. Issue #11 November 27, 1996 SCAM: The Nigerian Advance Fee Scheme The Nigerian Advance Fee Scam has been around for quite awhile, but despite many warnings, continues to draw in many victims. In fact, the Financial Crimes Division of the Secret Service receives approximately 100 telephone calls from victims/ potential victims and 300-500 pieces of related correspondence per day about this scam! Indications are that the advance fee fraud grosses hundreds of millions of dollars annually and the losses are continuing to escalate. The Nigerian Advance Fee Scheme (also known internationally as "4-1-9" fraud after the section of the Nigerian penal code which addresses fraud schemes) is generally targeted at small and medium sized businesses, as well as charities. This global scam (recently seen in Russia, Southeast Asia, Australia, and New Zealand, as well as the US) involves the receipt of an unsolicited letter purporting to come from someone who claims to work for the Nigerian Central Bank or from the Nigerian government. (The Central Bank of Nigeria denies all connection to those who promote this scheme.) In the letter, a Nigerian claiming to be a senior civil servant will inform the recipient that he is seeking a reputable foreign company into whose account he can deposit funds ranging from $10-$60 million which the Nigerian government overpaid on some procurement contract. The goal of the scam artist is to delude the victim into thinking that he or she has been singled out to participate in a very lucrative -- although questionable -- arrangement. The intended victim is reassured of the authenticity of the arrangement by forged or false documents bearing apparently official Nigerian government letterhead, seals, as well as false letters of credit, payment schedules and bank drafts. The scam artist may even establish the credibility of his contacts, and thereby his influence, by arranging a meeting between the victim and "government officials" in real or fake government offices. Once the victim becomes confident of the potential success of the deal, something goes wrong. The victim is then pressured or threatened to provide one or more large sums of money to save the venture. For example, an official will demand an up-front bribe or an unforeseen tax or fee to the Nigerian government will have to be paid before the money can be transferred. Each fee paid is described as the very last fee required. The scheme may be stretched out over many months. Here is a sample of a letter a victim may receive: (Note: The letter that is sent is all in capital letters.) Lagos, Nigeria. Attention: The President/CEO Dear Sir, Confidential Business Proposal Having consulted with my colleagues and based on the information gathered from the Nigerian Chambers Of Commerce And Industry, I have the privilege to request for your assistance to transfer the sum of $47,500,000.00 (forty seven million, five hundred thousand United States dollars) into your accounts. The above sum resulted from an over-invoiced contract, executed commissioned and paid for about five years (5) ago by a foreign contractor. This action was however intentional and since then the fund has been in a suspense account at The Central Bank Of Nigeria Apex Bank. We are now ready to transfer the fund overseas and that is where you come in. It is important to inform you that as civil servants, we are forbidden to operate a foreign account; that is why we require your assistance. The total sum will be shared as follows: 70% for us, 25% for you and 5% for local and international expenses incident to the transfer. The transfer is risk free on both sides. I am an accountant with the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation (NNPC). If you find this proposal acceptable, we shall require the following documents: (a) your banker's name, telephone, account and fax numbers. (b) your private telephone and fax numbers -- for confidentiality and easy communication. (c) your letter-headed paper stamped and signed. Alternatively we will furnish you with the text of what to type into your letter-headed paper, along with a breakdown explaining, comprehensively what we require of you. The business will take us thirty (30) working days to accomplish. Please reply urgently. Best regards What should you do if you receive a letter like this? The U.S. Secret Service has instructed anyone in the US who has lost funds because of this scam to forward appropriate written documentation to: U.S. Secret Service Financial Crimes Division 950 H Street, NW, Washington, DC 20001. (202) 406-5850 Or send email using the Secret Service form or direct to 419.fcd at usss.treas.gov If you have received a letter, but have not lost any monies to this scheme, please fax a copy of that letter to (202) 406-5031. If you are outside the United States, you should report it to your local authorities and send documention via fax to the U.S. Secret Service. Be careful. This scam can be physically dangerous as well as dangerous to your finances. Victims are almost always requested to travel to Nigeria or a border country to complete a transaction. Victims are often told that a visa will not be necessary to enter the country. The Nigerian scam artists may then bribe airport officials to pass the victims through Immigration and Customs. Because it is a serious offense in Nigeria to enter without a valid visa, the victim's illegal entry may be used by the scam artists as leverage to coerce the victims into releasing funds. Violence and threats of physical harm may be employed to further pressure victims. In June of 1995, an American was murdered in Lagos, Nigeria, while pursuing a 4-1-9 scam, and numerous other foreign nationals have been reported as missing. Recommendation: Avoid these scams like the plague! Don't let promises of large amounts of money impair your judgment. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From butrfly at epix.net Wed Sep 19 17:56:40 2001 From: butrfly at epix.net (R. Mikula) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:56:40 -0400 Subject: Nigerian e-mails References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010919001707.00aaac40@b.pop.kiva.net>, <20010919052659.22521.00000290@mb-fc.aol.com> <3BA8D152.7EB0E5C4@mail.mcn.org> <3BA9028B.8404E80B@risingwolf.com> Message-ID: <3BA91498.912FA9D0@epix.net> There are web sites set up to fight the Nigerian e-mails which to date has over 200 authors. I simply collect them and send them back and forth to the other Nigerians so they could compare notes and get their stories straight. If you want to get rid of them just reply that you will be forwarding their e-mails to the following; Nigerian Ambassador Embassy of Nigeria 1333 16th St., N.W., Washington, D.C., Federal Investigation & Intelligence Bureau, Alagbon Closc, Ikoi, Lagos Nigeria Fraud Defense Network The Fraud Information Center Trolls, Scams, Hackers, Hoaxes etc. Site International Scam Investigation Services International Scam and Fraud Information Board (ISFIB) (Canada) Internet Consumer Commission (ICC) Internet Consumer Fraud Information Service Internet Scambusters E-Zine Internet Scam Page Internet ScamBusters ScamWatch InterGOV Financial Scandals Website Nigerian National Petroleum Company Nigeria National Committee of the ICC Nigeria.Com Motherland Nigeria Nigeria Scam Alert The Nigerian Democratic Movement National Australian Security Providers Association South African Police Service (Even though you are central) U.S. Secret Service Financial Crimes Division United States Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs United States Department of the Treasury FinCEN United States Securities and Exchange Commission US Export Assistance Center, New York (USEAC: US Dept of Commerce, EX-IM Bank, SBA) United States Secret Service 419 Coalition Main Page Volker Securities & Investments Ltd. Web Police (US) ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From stanlep at extremezone.com Wed Sep 19 22:43:25 2001 From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:43:25 -0700 Subject: Message About Pictures Message-ID: <3BA957CD.FB8BD276@extremezone.com> I just received something that appears to have originated from Lep-L called: 'Special Notice from AOL's "You've Got Pictures" Service' I am sure I am being to cautious about viruses, but does anyone know anything about this before I access the web site? Stan ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mikayak at mdo.net Thu Sep 20 08:01:36 2001 From: mikayak at mdo.net (Mike Soukup) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:01:36 -0400 Subject: moth id - again. Message-ID: <3BA9DAA0.555470F4@mdo.net> OK.... it could be that my internet provider (who sucks) had my web site down for the past few days so nobody could see the photo. Or, it could be that nobody felt like clicking on my link (not that it would have worked). Maybe, nobody actually knows?? But, I only recieved one response (Thank you Dr. Adams) about my unknown Notodontid. Sure, somebody posts a photo of a polyphemus moth and everybody rushes in to ID it. But give you guys a tough one.... ;-) (just kidding!) Anyway, Dr. Adams feels that it is probably of the Genus Hyperaeschra. There are only 2 species according Hodges (georgica and tortuosa). H. georgica is very common and well known. However, I can't find a photo of H. tortuosa anywhere. There is not one at the "Moths of NA" site. And, Jeff Snyders list points to a non-existant photo. So, once again, the photo of my unknown Notodontid is at the site: http://www.mdonline.net/users/mikayak/notodontids-unknown.jpg Any help would be appreciated. It is 1 male and 2 females. All 3 caught in March and April of 1998 in Severn, MD - between Balto and DC. IF you want me to email you the photo...just ask. Thanks again... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010920/6d3151f6/attachment.html From mikayak at mdo.net Thu Sep 20 09:31:09 2001 From: mikayak at mdo.net (Mike Soukup) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:31:09 -0400 Subject: moth id Message-ID: <3BA9EF9D.8A959DA8@mdo.net> My useless, worthless ISP cannot keep the web site up long enough to allow anybody to access it. Sorry about that. Please keep trying. I have already sent them several nasty letters..... I will be switching ISP's shortly. If anybody wants, I can easily send them the photo directly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010920/53cea929/attachment.html From tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca Thu Sep 20 09:38:55 2001 From: tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca (Thomas, Tony) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:38:55 -0400 Subject: Notodontids Message-ID: With reference to Mike's mystery notodontid. Several years ago, maybe 10-15, I spent some time collecting at The Wedge Plantation in South Carolina. While there I was shown a complete set of colour plates of the notodontids destined for an upcoming fascicle in MONA. Apparently, the plates were waiting for someone to write the text. Are these plates still extant? If so, could they be put out as web pages in the near future? Tony Dr. A.W. Thomas Research Scientist Canadian Forest Service - Atlantic Forestry Centre Natural Resources Canada PO Box 4000 1350 Regent Street Fredericton, NB E3B 5P7 e-mail: tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca 'phone (506) 452-3523 FAX (506) 452-3525 Illustrated Checklist of Fundy National Park Moths: http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/family_s-e.html Giant Silkmoths of Fundy National Park: http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/family-e.html > ---------- > From: Mike Soukup[SMTP:mikayak at mdo.net] > To: Leps-l > Subject: moth id - again. > > However, I can't find a photo of H. tortuosa anywhere. There is not one > at the "Moths of NA" site. And, Jeff Snyders list points to a > non-existant photo. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Thu Sep 20 11:04:33 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:04:33 -0400 Subject: 18th field report Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279EF8@hqmail.gensym.com> Ron asked about nectaring pegala. The western ssp. can be found at nectar often, although they are usually encountered flopping about in the shady underbrush. Just a few weeks ago, while lepping in Northern California and Oregon, I enjoyed dozens of pegala sharing the Rabbitbrush with multiple Speyeria species. Mark Walker. Currently back in Richland, WA. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gatrelle [mailto:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org] > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:11 PM > To: Carolina Leps; Leps-l > Subject: 18th field report > > > In some ways the last week seems like an eternity and yet it > has been just > 8 days. I was in the North Carolina mountains Tuesday the > 18. Alone in the > field it seemed nothing had changed - if that could only be true. > > I may make only one or two more trips to the Forest Service > study site this > year in Clay County. It had been three weeks since my last > visit, which > was a least a week longer than wanted. > > Three interesting observations then the species list. > 1) A somewhat worn female Cercyonis pegala carolina was > observe nectaring > at Asters. At first I though it had just landed on one near > me. But it > proceeded to flit (fly would be a wrong descriptive term for > this species) > to 4 successive flower heads. I do not recall ever seeing an > subspecies of > pegala visiting flowers before. Anyone else? > > 2) I observed a male Polites peckius repeatedly trying to > copulate with a > female Euphyes vestris metacomet. I eventually lost track of > these two. > The male followed her around for the 4-5 minutes I was able > to keep track > of them. > > 3) I probably observed in excess of 50 Monarchs in Clay > County. These > were all very fresh and visiting flowers (mostly Goldenrods > and Asters). > They looked to be an emerging brood. This was at three sites > in a three > mile stretch along one road and associated clearings and > roadway ditches. > > (Names in brief. Clay Co. NC 3100' to 3500') > > philenor (Pipevine) 2 > troilus (Spicebush) 1 > galucus (E. Tiger) 2 worn black females > > rapae (Cabbage) 4 > Colias ( ? ) 1 white female > nicippe (Sleepy) 2 > lisa (Little Yellow) 1 > eubule (Cloudless ) 2 females one "white" > > cecrops (Red-banded) 2 > melinus (Gray) 2 > comyntas (E. Tailed) dozens > > nigrior (Gulf Frit.) 3 > claudia (Variegated) 2 > cybele (Great Spangled) many - mostly females and worn. > cullasaja (Cullasaja Frit.) less than 10 - all females > diana 3 females > tharos (Pearl ) several > Phyciodes (Northern ?) odd ones vouchered (large with > orange tipped > antennae) > Polygonia ( ? ) 1 fly by > coenia (Buckeye) several > plexippus (Monarch) 50+ > sosybius (Carolina) 1 > C. p. carolina (Carolina or Appalachian Wood Nymph) 2 females > > clarus (Silver-spotted) many > horatius 1 male > lherminier (Swathy) a few > accius (Clouded) a few > phyleus (Fiery) a few > peckius several > origines (Crossline) several > campestris huron (Sachem) 1male > metacomet (Dun) 2 > ocola 2 > > 33 taxa > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spm23 at cornell.edu Thu Sep 20 12:30:03 2001 From: spm23 at cornell.edu (spm23 at cornell.edu) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Message About Pictures In-Reply-To: <3BA957CD.FB8BD276@extremezone.com> Message-ID: Cornell issued a warning about that notice. They claim it is a virus that can wipe your hard drive. I would suggest NEVER opening any attachments not sent to you PERSONALLY be a friend. -Sean Mullen On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Stanley A. Gorodenski wrote: > I just received something that appears to have originated from Lep-L > called: > 'Special Notice from AOL's "You've Got Pictures" Service' > > I am sure I am being to cautious about viruses, but does anyone know > anything about this before I access the web site? > > Stan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From papnapa at jps.net Thu Sep 20 13:00:10 2001 From: papnapa at jps.net (napapen) Date: 20 Sep 2001 10:00:10 -0700 Subject: monarch catapillers Message-ID: I have 7 monarchs I am raising in the house. I have been reading alot of info on the internet about when they go into pupa stage. Mine are 47mm long (+or-) and are eating like pigs. I fear I will run out of milkweed before they change. Will putting a light over the area I am raising them in speed things up abit from the light and warmth. Right now it is cool and overcast in Napa and they are just sitting and not moving much. Thanks NapaPenny ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From 1_iron at msn.com Thu Sep 20 14:01:08 2001 From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:01:08 -0400 Subject: Message About Pictures References: Message-ID: <002a01c141fe$3b8bc980$be890a3f@1swch01> I would suggest we take Sean's warning up a notch; NEVER open ANY attachment. An attachment sent you personally by a friend is only as safe as your friend is cautious. Jim Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Stanley A. Gorodenski" Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Message About Pictures > Cornell issued a warning about that notice. They claim it is a virus > that can wipe your hard drive. I would suggest NEVER opening any > attachments not sent to you PERSONALLY be a friend. > > -Sean Mullen > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Stanley A. Gorodenski wrote: > > > I just received something that appears to have originated from Lep-L > > called: > > 'Special Notice from AOL's "You've Got Pictures" Service' > > > > I am sure I am being to cautious about viruses, but does anyone know > > anything about this before I access the web site? > > > > Stan > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From vapassoa at copper.net Thu Sep 20 15:11:36 2001 From: vapassoa at copper.net (Valerie Passoa) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:11:36 -0400 Subject: The Ohio Lepidopterists Message-ID: <006c01c14208$23378fe0$1a491cd8@computer> Hello Everyone, If you'd like to know more about The Ohio Lepidopterists, please view our new site at http://www.ohiolepidopterists.org/. Valerie Passoa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010920/d1aabb4c/attachment.html From viceroy at anu.ie Thu Sep 20 15:01:04 2001 From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:01:04 -0400 Subject: Unusual lepidoptera behavior References: <3B927363.478CB95B@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3BAA3CF0.EDEEE9B3@anu.ie> Joel Lyons wrote: > > but perhaps understandable ... > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jrlyons/vwp?.dir=/My+Photo+Album&.src=ph&.dnm=The+Day.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/jrlyons/lst%3f%26.dir=/My%2bPhoto%2bAlbum%26.src=ph%26.view=t > > giggle Anne Kilmer back in South Florida ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From lutzrun at avalon.net Thu Sep 20 17:31:07 2001 From: lutzrun at avalon.net (Martha Rosett Lutz) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:31:07 -0500 Subject: monarch caterpillars Message-ID: "I have 7 monarchs I am raising in the house. I have been reading alot of info on the internet about when they go into pupa stage. Mine are 47mm long (+or-) and are eating like pigs. I fear I will run out of milkweed before they change." Most of the larvae I have raised from eggs will pupate ten days after the egg hatches. If your larvae are 8-9 days old, you have only a day or so to go before they spin their little button, hang upside down, and feed no more on leaves. On the other hand, of the 20 or so larvae I reared this summer, almost half were parasitized with multiple tachinid larvae, which emerged when the monarchs hung upside down to pupate. In Stride, Martha Rosett Lutz ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From xiwang at sprint.ca Thu Sep 20 17:41:30 2001 From: xiwang at sprint.ca (Xi Wang) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:41:30 -0400 Subject: monarch caterpillars References: Message-ID: <3BAA628A.3394@sprint.ca> This year, my Monarch larvae took on avg 14 days to go from hatching to pupation at 25 Celsius. Peace, Xi Wang Martha Rosett Lutz wrote: > > "I have 7 monarchs I am raising in the house. I have been reading alot > of info on the internet about when they go into pupa stage. Mine are > 47mm long (+or-) and are eating like pigs. I fear I will run out of > milkweed before they change." > > Most of the larvae I have raised from eggs will pupate ten days after the > egg hatches. If your larvae are 8-9 days old, you have only a day or so to > go before they spin their little button, hang upside down, and feed no more > on leaves. > > On the other hand, of the 20 or so larvae I reared this summer, almost half > were parasitized with multiple tachinid larvae, which emerged when the > monarchs hung upside down to pupate. > > In Stride, > Martha Rosett Lutz > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From papnapa at jps.net Fri Sep 21 00:02:38 2001 From: papnapa at jps.net (napapen) Date: 20 Sep 2001 21:02:38 -0700 Subject: monarch caterpillars References: , <3BAA628A.3394@sprint.ca> Message-ID: How do these tachinid larvae do this - during catepillar stage. Since writing last night 1 has formed the J shape and the others are moving around but not eating. and 2 got out of the box somehow and must be somewhere in my sunroom. NapaPenny Xi Wang wrote in message news:<3BAA628A.3394 at sprint.ca>... > This year, my Monarch larvae took on avg 14 days to go from hatching to > pupation at 25 Celsius. > > Peace, > Xi Wang > > Martha Rosett Lutz wrote: > > > > "I have 7 monarchs I am raising in the house. I have been reading alot > > of info on the internet about when they go into pupa stage. Mine are > > 47mm long (+or-) and are eating like pigs. I fear I will run out of > > milkweed before they change." > > > > Most of the larvae I have raised from eggs will pupate ten days after the > > egg hatches. If your larvae are 8-9 days old, you have only a day or so to > > go before they spin their little button, hang upside down, and feed no more > > on leaves. > > > > On the other hand, of the 20 or so larvae I reared this summer, almost half > > were parasitized with multiple tachinid larvae, which emerged when the > > monarchs hung upside down to pupate. > > > > In Stride, > > Martha Rosett Lutz > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From lutzrun at avalon.net Fri Sep 21 08:27:38 2001 From: lutzrun at avalon.net (Martha Rosett Lutz) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:27:38 -0500 Subject: monarch caterpillars Message-ID: NapaPenny wrote: "How do these tachinid larvae do this - during catepillar stage. Since writing last night 1 has formed the J shape and the others are moving around but not eating." If the larva is parasitized with tachinids, it will usually be smaller than is typical for monarch larvae, but this may be hard to judge unless you have many others for comparison. After the parasitized larva hangs in its J, it will straighten out, become limp, and slender white strands will descend from its body; these appear to be the exit tubes for the maggots. (Can someone else comment on this? I've never actually seen them exiting, but as soon as I see the strands, I see the maggots on the floor of the cage.) The maggots pupate, and soon afterwards emerge as adult flies. There can be several maggots per monarch larva. I have had one case of a larva that did pupate in spite of being parasitized, but after the maggots exited from the chrysalis, it turned from green to brown and died (caved in on itself). In Stride, Martha Rosett Lutz ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jpm at sentex.net Fri Sep 21 16:58:45 2001 From: jpm at sentex.net (John Marechal) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:58:45 -0400 Subject: Monarch Metamorphosis Educational Poster Message-ID: <3BABAA05.D6B70F8C@sentex.net> I am a Ontario, Canada based Nature Photographer and have created a 24 x 36 Inch metamorphosis poster of the Monarch Butterfly (Danaus plexippus). I was wondering if you would be interested in making this Poster available to you're various customers, associations, or the general public. Cost is $8.00 per poster. Quantity discounts available. Shipping is extra. Prices are in Canadian funds. I am including a sample poster and a Link to my web site. [Image] If interested please contact me via Email or Fax: (905)389-9023 Address: John P. Marechal Wildlife Photographer 2-558 Upper Gage St, Suite 311 Hamilton, Ont. Canada L8V 4J6 Visit my site at http://www.sentex.net/~jpm Thank you for you're time. John P. Marechal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010921/63a8a767/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmail8Q.gif Type: image/gif Size: 69899 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010921/63a8a767/attachment.gif From papnapa at jps.net Fri Sep 21 19:16:58 2001 From: papnapa at jps.net (napapen) Date: 21 Sep 2001 16:16:58 -0700 Subject: monarch caterpillars References: Message-ID: I have 4 hanging in the j form but I can not see anything happening as far as the pupa forming. The rest are still restlessly moving around. Boy, if they all have the flies I may never want to help again!! NapaPenny > > In Stride, > Martha Rosett Lutz > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jjcardinal at aol.com Fri Sep 21 21:12:27 2001 From: jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) Date: 22 Sep 2001 01:12:27 GMT Subject: monarch catapillers References: Message-ID: <20010921211227.08361.00000135@mb-cv.aol.com> >they are just sitting and not moving much Sounds like thay may be ill? ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jjcardinal at aol.com Fri Sep 21 21:15:49 2001 From: jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) Date: 22 Sep 2001 01:15:49 GMT Subject: Monarch Metamorphosis Educational Poster References: <3BABAA05.D6B70F8C@sentex.net> Message-ID: <20010921211549.08361.00000137@mb-cv.aol.com> please send info in different format that does not require opening a file ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jjcardinal at aol.com Fri Sep 21 21:13:56 2001 From: jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) Date: 22 Sep 2001 01:13:56 GMT Subject: monarch caterpillars References: Message-ID: <20010921211356.08361.00000136@mb-cv.aol.com> >Since >writing last night 1 has formed the J shape and the others are moving >around but not eating. They do stop eating and become somewhat inactive just before J'ing. Things may be just fine. Have you raised monarchs before? ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Sat Sep 22 03:41:20 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 03:41:20 -0400 Subject: Odds and Sods Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279F04@hqmail.gensym.com> I'm back in Richland, WA to do some more consulting work. Long hours, and little time off. In the past two weeks, though, I have been able to steal away a minute here and there and have enjoyed some nice bugs. I thought I'd compile a list of the spots I've visited, and share with you some of what I've seen. It's nice to know that there's always something flying somewhere. Sunday, September 9th - Los Ebanos, Hidalgo Co., TX The Lower Rio Grande Valley was surprisingly green and lush - but there were few leps on the wing. I would be so bold as to make a prediction - it should be a great November/December there, and perhaps the larvae that are happily munching now will help spawn an active late winter and early spring. I haven't seen SoTexas so green in September since 1998. For me, the most common LRV sighting on this trip was a most attractive young lady on a popular "Wild on Texas" Budweiser billboard. She was everywhere. There were a few insects of interest, also. Asterocampa leilia (Empress Leilia) was common in the scrub areas near the River, most easily found flitting and resting on dirt roads. Mostly males, but there were a few females as well. I saw NO skippers in several stops. Pierids were on the wing, and could have a nice explosion soon. All the major players were present - Phoebis sennae (Cloudless Sulphur), Phoebis agarithe (Large Orange Sulphur), Phoebis philea (Orange Barred Sulphur), along with Eurema nicippe (Sleepy Orange), Eurema lisa (Little Yellow), and Nathalis iole (Dainty Sulphur). The only swallowtails seen were Papilo cresphontes (Giant Swallowtail) and Battus philenor (Pipevine Swallowtail). Hemiargus isola (Reakirt's Blue) was the most common Lycaenid. Calephelis nemesis (Fatal Metalmark) could be found bopping around in the underbrush. There were plenty of Agraulis vanillae (Gulf Fritillary), and Texola elada (Elada Checkerspot) is still flying through the grassy areas amongst the scrub. Phyciodes phaon (Phaon Crescentspot) is also flying near moisture. Danaus plexippus (Monarch) can be seen migrating south in numbers. Thursday, September 13 - Blanco, Blanco Co., TX In the aftermath of the tragedy that was September 11, I got in my rental car and headed for home (California). I stopped just outside of Austin, and had a look around. There were far more butterflies on the wing in central Texas than in the south. Things were equally green, but there was still a shortage of nectar. A common flowering plant with star shaped white blossoms was a pretty good attractant for Callophrys gryneus (Juniper Hairstreak), which was incredibly common. Not much of a surprise, given the extent of foodplant in this part of Texas. It's everywhere. And so was this gorgeous little bug. The gryneus that flies here (like so many other eastern locations) has a very deep and extensive green scaling on the underwing. There were also skippers flying here - including Erynnis horatius (Horace's Duskywing). Other skippers included Hesperia viridis (Viridis Skipper), Poanes zabulon (Zabulon Skipper), and Hylephila phyleus (Fiery Skipper). Battus philenor, Papilo cresphontes, and a single specimen of Papilio polyxenes (Black Swallowtail) were also seen. The Monarch was quite common at nectar here also - and obviously heading for Mexico. I stopped in nearby Fredericksburg, where there is a nice little Butterfly House and Garden. Even those of us who prefer the bugs and sweat and sunburn of the remotest of fields, personal interaction with leps in a controlled environment is always a joy. I wanted to introduce myself to the proprietor, but she was away at the time. Maybe next time. Friday, September 14 - Bard, Imperial Co., CA I considered stopping on my crazy cross country trip in the Southeast Arizona area, but on Friday the whole southwest was under dark cloud cover with occasional torrential rainfall. In fact, I was rained on all the way from Fort Stockton, TX to Yuma, CA. Too bad, cuz this is a great time of the year to do some lepping in Arizona (as Hank has so kindly shared of late). I had other problems, as well. I was driving like a madman so I could attend my son's second high school football game. It wasn't until I got to Tucson that I found out that his game had been cancelled. By the time I was driving across the California border, it was already past 2:00 p.m. I detoured briefly to Bard, near the Colorado River, and had a look around. No big surprise that I didn't find much, but I was excited to find Pyrgus scriptura (Small Checkered Skipper) flying along with the ever common Lerodea eufala (Eufala Skipper). There were also Pyrgus albescens (White Checkered Skipper) flying about the same irrigation canals. P. scriptura is a joy to experience - but can be easy to miss if you're not looking at the Checkered Skippers rather closely. They are certainly smaller, and have a somewhat distinguishable flight, but if you're not looking closely, you're likely to miss them. Saturday, September 15 - Oceanside, San Diego Co., CA Home for just a few short hours, and I couldn't help myself. I took the kids down to the beach to look for Panoquina errans (Wandering Skipper). We were not disappointed, and found the desperate little thing quite common in it's ever-shrinking native saltgrass habitat. You know you're sick with the disease when you categorize bugs like this as being beautiful - but that's an understatement. The bugs being beautiful, I mean - well, and the sick with the disease part, too, I guess. Monday, September 17 - Hyak, Kittitas Co., WA I flew to Seattle this time, and drove the Interstate four hours to Richland. My plane got in to SeaTac rather early, so I stopped to get off the highway in the Cascades. I found a logging road, and headed for higher pastures. I wasn't successful in finding decent habitat, but there were butterflies to be found at altitude. The most common by far was Nymphalis californica (California Tortoiseshell), which is flying strong with many fresh individuals (probably destined for spending the winter under snow). Speyeria hydaspe (Hydaspe Fritillary) was quite common, even though they appeared to be a few weeks past prime. There were still Neophasia menapia (Pine White) flying down from the pine trees to take brief nectar breaks. Lycaeides idas (Northern Blue) was common at nectar, and there were occasional Lycaena mariposa (Mariposa Copper) at the same flowers. I saw two stunning individuals of Polygonia faunus - almost red above, and with C-shaped "commas". Vanessa annabella (West Coast Lady) was common and immaculate, along with Vanessa atalanta (Red Admiral). The only skipper on this day was Ochlodes sylvandoides (Woodland Skipper). By 3:00 p.m., virtually all but the Nymphalis were nowhere to be seen. Thursday, September 20 - Richland, Franklin Co., WA For lunch I decided to take a walk along the Columbia River. I had been seeing numerous yellow sulphurs, and I was hoping I might find something interesting. While I'm sure there are Colias philodice and possibly even C. alexandra flying, all I found at lunch this day were C. eurytheme. The females have extensive black scaling, though, so even these common insects can be fascinating to examine. There was an absolute explosion of Atalopedes campestris (Sachem), though, so I was more than occupied anyway. I don't know if the Sachem is a breeding resident or not, but it sure is having a healthy brood up here now. Also found on Rabbitbrush (which is still blossoming here) were Hesperia juba (Juba Skipper). Pyrgus communis (Common Checkered Skipper) was also flying. ------------------------ Anyway, thanks for bearing with me. Scattering a few records here and there helps keep my mind off of the ongoing fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Mark Walker still visiting Richland, WA., where I am scratching from a combination of exposure to mosquito bites, poison sumac, poisonwood, and poison ivy. I'm a scratching fool. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Sat Sep 22 13:05:44 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:05:44 -0400 Subject: Odds and Sods References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279F04@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <3BACC4E7.9EE99C5F@eohsi.rutgers.edu> Mark Walker mentioned "There was an absolute explosion of Atalopedes campestris (Sachem), though, so I was more than occupied anyway. I don't know if the Sachem is a breeding resident or not, but it sure is having a healthy brood up here now. " Sachem is having a banner year in NJ as well. At our home in Somerset, NJ we have been finding 10-20 in the yard for the past 3 wks, nectaring on a variety of plants, but usually on Buddleia or on Black Knapweed. In the clearing behind our house where Knapweed is abundant, we have been finding 50-100 Sachems, mostly on Knapweed. They were common August, but particularly since early Sept, and they were quite fresh at the time they were first noted in large numbers. Yesterday (9/21/01) at the NJ Audubon Center in Goshen, NJ (near Cape May) we estimated about 150 Sachems on lots of different flowers. They were mostly on Pycnanthemum muticum (a Mountain Mint) and on a horticultural variety of New England Aster, and remarkably seemed to ignore the Buddleias. Mike Gochfeld ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mbpi at juno.com Sat Sep 22 14:31:21 2001 From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:31:21 -0500 Subject: Southerly Movement Message-ID: <20010922.133126.-244469.0.mbpi@juno.com> Hi all, Just wanted to report an observation of definite southward movement of many Leps here in the Chicago, Illinois area, on this last day of summer/first day of fall. Of those I could identify, it was mostly Vanessa A. (Red Admirals), with a few Monarchs mixed in... The extended forecast in this region is pretty bleak, though today is gorgeous! M.B. Prondzinski USA ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 11:48:25 2001 From: Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk (Neil Jones) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:48:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sacramento Mountains Checkerspot proposal Message-ID: <20010921.1548.86622snz@nwjones.demon.co.uk> The proposal to list the Sacramento Mountains Checkerspot as an Endangered Species is available on the web. It may be found at http://southwest.fws.gov/htopic.html -- Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/ "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog National Nature Reserve ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jlygrnmigt at hotmail.com Sun Sep 23 18:49:55 2001 From: jlygrnmigt at hotmail.com (Elisa Collins) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:49:55 -0400 Subject: odd caterpillar.. Message-ID: wandering the forests of sortof western michigan, I found a caterpillar (on a sugar maple- which they will eat, on a red oak, on a black cherry, and on a pignut hickory) which was very fuzzy white with longer tufts of black "hair" at the head and foot ends. I captured 3 and plan on raising two and preserving one as a larva, but i cannot figure out what they are. If anyone has seen these and can tell me something about them i.e. native/exotic, length of life cycle, etc. it would be much appreciated. thanks, elisa collins _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From droberts03 at snet.net Sun Sep 23 20:26:31 2001 From: droberts03 at snet.net (bill and Dale) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:26:31 -0400 Subject: odd caterpillar.. References: Message-ID: <3BAE7DB6.A4BA4333@snet.net> Hi Elisa, In Connecticut today I had the same cat or something very close. Probably the cat of the Banded Tussock Moth (Halysidota tessellaris) or a close relation. Bill Yule Elisa Collins wrote: > wandering the forests of sortof western michigan, I found a caterpillar (on > a sugar maple- which they will eat, on a red oak, on a black cherry, and on > a pignut hickory) which was very fuzzy white with longer tufts of black > "hair" at the head and foot ends. I captured 3 and plan on raising two and > preserving one as a larva, but i cannot figure out what they are. If anyone > has seen these and can tell me something about them i.e. native/exotic, > length of life cycle, etc. it would be much appreciated. > > thanks, elisa collins > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From papnapa at jps.net Sun Sep 23 19:10:51 2001 From: papnapa at jps.net (napapen) Date: 23 Sep 2001 16:10:51 -0700 Subject: monarch pupas injury Message-ID: While moving my pupa I accidently nicked one and fluid came out. I checked with my 14mm glass and it appears the nick has sealed. Have I lost this one or do they recover from nicks? NapaPenny ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From CATERPILLAR1 at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Sep 23 21:09:00 2001 From: CATERPILLAR1 at EARTHLINK.NET (SHARYN F. GALLOWAY) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:09:00 -0700 Subject: searching info Message-ID: Hello- It's been a while since I was on the list - Sorry folks - Mainly, I'm hoping to contact Sally Levinson? - if I remember your name correctly (from Berkeley). YOu had a table of butterfly plants when I gave my butterfly "habitat" making project at Berkeley's Lawrence Hall of Science a couple years back ... Just heard from the local Wild Birds Store that they are looking for a butterfly gardening presenter/presentation (October 28th). Please call or email me if you're out there and at all interested!!! -- Sharyn F. Galloway caterpillar1 at earthlink.net 925-691-4898 Concord CA ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Mon Sep 24 08:27:12 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:27:12 -0400 Subject: Looking for a good Moth id book Message-ID: And make certain you purchase the "Scientific Version"; $89 Canadian, a real bargain. > -----Original Message----- > From: Hi Y'all [SMTP:spruance at infinet.com] > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:02 AM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book > > You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is especially > good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. Louis's > book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with > illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this geographical > region. > > ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 > > Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca > > Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies of > Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be > common > on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put in > a > want. I've this with much success over the years. > > Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in > the > air. > > Eric > > "Stephen J. Orena" wrote in message > news:3B9EA367.B59E1AC1 at snet.net... > > Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've > > tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, > > however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another > > book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern > > North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or > > Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. > > > > Steve > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Wolfgang.Waegele at rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Mon Sep 24 10:55:16 2001 From: Wolfgang.Waegele at rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Wolfgang.Waegele at rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:55:16 +0200 Subject: taxonomy online Message-ID: <200109241354.f8ODswM27531@quickgr.its.yale.edu> For all those who are taxonomists and want to help to disseminate taxonomic information: New opportunity to PUBLISH TAXONOMY ONLINE! To disseminate taxonomic information world-wide, especially for countries/institutes with poor libraries, publication via the internet is the ideal medium. Taxonomic information is needed everywhere, and we hope that in future much of it will be available in any place of this planet wherever a PC is connected to the internet. To achieve this goal a new journal was founded that uses a normal peer-review system but publishes both electronically and on paper. Organisms, Diversity and Evolution is published by the Gesellschaft f?r Biologische Systematik (GfBS) (Society for Systematic Biology) and the Urban & Fischer Verlag. The Journal consists of a printed version and an electronic supplement. It is devoted to the understanding of organismal diversity and addresses an international audience. Purely taxonomic papers are published in the electronic supplement by GfBS. Extended abstracts of these publications will be contained in the printed Journal. The electronic supplement will be available free of charge on the internet independent of the printed Journal to everybody interested. Examples: see http://www.senckenberg.uni- frankfurt.de/odes/ To fulfill the rules of taxonomic nomenclature (botany/ zoology) diagnoses appear in the printed version and CDs are deposited in major libraries. Furthermore, a German institute responsible for the conservation of electronic data (Deusche Bibliothek, Frankfurt) will take care of the electronic version to keep the format of stored information up to date. For further information see: http://www.urbanfischer.de/journals/ode/ ************************ Prof. Dr. J. W. Waegele Lehrstuhl fuer Spezielle Zoologie Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum Universitaetsstr. 150 44780 Bochum Tel.: 0234/32-24563 FAX: 0234/32-14114 email: Wolfgang.Waegele at ruhr-uni-bochum.de http://www.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/spezzoo/ Association of Systematists (GfBS): http://www.gfbs-home.de NEW JOURNAL FOR SYSTEMATICS: Organisms, Diversity and Evolution see http://www.urbanfischer.de/journals/ode/ ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From sumairp at lycos.com Mon Sep 24 13:02:02 2001 From: sumairp at lycos.com (sumairp at lycos.com) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 17:02:02 GMT Subject: luminescent moths? References: Message-ID: <3baf6411.46785810@news.newzpig.com> On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:53:15 +0900, "Eric Larson" wrote: >I once saw what appeared to be a luminescent moth in the jungle in >Taman Negara National Park, Malaysia. Is there such a thing? If so, >what is the scientific name? > > I don't know of any "luminescent" lepidoptera at all. However, there are iridescent butterflies & moths. Sorry, but we are a pedantic lot in this newgroup.LOL Luminescent means to emit or give off light, whereas iridescent means rainbow-like color. There are quite a number of butterflies that have iridescent-like colors, but only a few moths. Of the moths, Urania ripheus (Madagascar) is probaby the most spectactular. cheers, Chris Hocking ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From ldmail at support.lockdown2000.com Mon Sep 24 04:44:38 2001 From: ldmail at support.lockdown2000.com (Lockdown Corp) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:44:38 -0400 Subject: REPLY REQUIRED: LockDown Security List - Online Subscription Confirmation Message-ID: <200109240844.EAA05941@support.lockdown2000.com> YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ADDED TO THE LIST YET! - YOU NEED TO REPLY! Thank you for your request to join the latest anti virus / trojan and Hacker news list! YOU MUST REPLY to this message if you want to be added to the LockDown Security Bulletin email list! For more information about this list, remove instructions or new articles soon to be released, click on the link below: http://support.lockdowncorp.com/cgi-bin/mailing-list This verification message is used to confirm that we are able to send you mail. It also protects you in case some well meaning person requested a subscription in your name without your knowledge or permission. If you do not wish to be a member of this list, simply ignore this message and you will not be added to the list or receive any future email. The LockDown list is not a list server that sends you hundreds of emails. It typically sends a couple of emails per month on important issues. We do not sell or lend out our email lists. Your information is kept private and only seen by our authorized support team. Visit This List Home Page At: http://www.lockdowncorp.com Visit This List Proxy Page At: http://WWW.LDproxy.com Sincerely, The LockDown Security Bulletin List Team List URL: http://support.lockdown2000.com/cgi-bin/mailing-list ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jjcardinal at aol.com Mon Sep 24 20:10:42 2001 From: jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) Date: 25 Sep 2001 00:10:42 GMT Subject: monarch pupas injury References: Message-ID: <20010924201042.07274.00000452@mb-mk.aol.com> >Have I >lost this one or do they recover from nicks? Maybe. We had one chrysalis split badly, and yet it emerged a beautiful butterfly with only a slightly crumpled lower hind wing. It later flew off into the daylight. You won't know the extent of the damage until it emerges, NapaPenny. Please share the outcome. Louise Dawson www.jjcardinal.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MWalker at gensym.com Mon Sep 24 23:30:21 2001 From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:30:21 -0400 Subject: Panoquina in Nevada? Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279F17@hqmail.gensym.com> Didn't I see something here recently about an endangered Panoquina skipper from the alkaline flats in Nevada? If so, and someone still has the info, I'd greatly appreciate seeing the info again. Thanks, Mark Walker. still hanging out here in Richland, WA. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spruance at infinet.com Tue Sep 25 09:20:02 2001 From: spruance at infinet.com (Hi Y'all) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:20:02 -0400 Subject: Don Lafointaine please help References: Message-ID: <3bb08463$0$1529$ac966d11@news.raex.com> Don Lafontaine: Help. The web site for Brouquet appears to be gone. A search of Amazon.com for the ISBN nets zero results. Can you contact Louis to find out how to buy his book. Please post answer here for all to see. Thanks, Eric "Grkovich, Alex" wrote in message news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE50D7011 at NTFS2... > And make certain you purchase the "Scientific Version"; $89 Canadian, a real > bargain. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hi Y'all [SMTP:spruance at infinet.com] > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:02 AM > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > > Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book > > > > You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is especially > > good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. Louis's > > book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with > > illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this geographical > > region. > > > > ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 > > > > Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca > > > > Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies of > > Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be > > common > > on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put in > > a > > want. I've this with much success over the years. > > > > Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in > > the > > air. > > > > Eric > > > > "Stephen J. Orena" wrote in message > > news:3B9EA367.B59E1AC1 at snet.net... > > > Hi! I'm new to lepidoptery and have a special interest in moths. I've > > > tried to find the book by Charles Covell and the one by William Holland, > > > however they appear to be out of print. Can anyone recommend another > > > book which is still in print? I'd like one that concentrates on eastern > > > North America if possible. Alternatively, if someone has a Covell or > > > Holland book for sale --- please let me know! Thanks. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From papnapa at jps.net Tue Sep 25 10:13:14 2001 From: papnapa at jps.net (napapen) Date: 25 Sep 2001 07:13:14 -0700 Subject: monarch pupas injury References: , <20010924201042.07274.00000452@mb-mk.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks so much for the encouragement. I will post to board when the kids fly away Napa Penny jjcardinal at aol.com (JJCardinal) wrote in message news:<20010924201042.07274.00000452 at mb-mk.aol.com>... > >Have I > >lost this one or do they recover from nicks? > > Maybe. > > We had one chrysalis split badly, and yet it emerged a beautiful butterfly with > only a slightly crumpled lower hind wing. It later flew off into the daylight. > You won't know the extent of the damage until it emerges, NapaPenny. Please > share the outcome. > > Louise Dawson > www.jjcardinal.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From papnapa at jps.net Tue Sep 25 12:52:41 2001 From: papnapa at jps.net (napapen) Date: 25 Sep 2001 09:52:41 -0700 Subject: more on monarch pupa Message-ID: Will light and warmth speed up the butterfly change over process? It has been cool in the Napa Valley and cloudy. Want to get my kids on their way to Pacific Grove. Would keeping pupa under a light make a difference? Napa Penny ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From too at much.spam Tue Sep 25 14:06:24 2001 From: too at much.spam (Alan Prignoli) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:06:24 +0100 Subject: UK caterpillar id? Message-ID: <9oqgvp$edp$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> I don't have a photo but this caterpillar (found in London) was pretty distinctive... 2 inches in length, body greenish coloured with a dense pattern of tiny dots. Light coloured, featureless, rounded triangular 'face mask' Thin, upward pointing, cylindrical, light blue 'tail', over orange 'buttocks'. Many thanks in advance... ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From LynnScott at heiconsulting.com Tue Sep 25 13:42:21 2001 From: LynnScott at heiconsulting.com (Lynn Scott) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:42:21 GMT Subject: Don Lafointaine please help References: , <3bb08463$0$1529$ac966d11@news.raex.com> Message-ID: Having just replied to someone else who had asked me about finding Handfield's Guide des Papillons, I think the problem has been that the publisher's name is misspelled in the messages below. The publisher's website is still active at http://www.broquet.qc.ca Both the popular and the scientific editions are still listed under titles in the Nature section, but I note the on-line order form appears to be truncated and does not include either title. Phone and fax numbers are provided on the site, however. I heartily endorse the recommendation to get the scientific edition if you can. Lynn Scott In article <3bb08463$0$1529$ac966d11 at news.raex.com>, spruance at infinet.com says... > Don Lafontaine: > > Help. > > The web site for Brouquet appears to be gone. A search of Amazon.com for > the ISBN nets zero results. Can you contact Louis to find out how to buy > his book. > > Please post answer here for all to see. > > Thanks, > > Eric > > > "Grkovich, Alex" wrote in message > news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE50D7011 at NTFS2... > > And make certain you purchase the "Scientific Version"; $89 Canadian, a > real > > bargain. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Hi Y'all [SMTP:spruance at infinet.com] > > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:02 AM > > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > > > Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book > > > > > > You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is > especially > > > good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. > Louis's > > > book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with > > > illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this > geographical > > > region. > > > > > > ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 > > > > > > Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca > > > > > > Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many copies > of > > > Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be > > > common > > > on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can put > in > > > a > > > want. I've this with much success over the years. > > > > > > Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are in -- = = = = = Lynn Scott LynnScott at heiconsulting.com Visit http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Tue Sep 25 14:57:31 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:57:31 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing Message-ID: Some of you may have received a mailing from the Mariposa Press describing some new books. I was interested to read that the book 'But- terflies of the World' by Sbordoni & Forestiero will answer the question "...why do Norwegians, Alaskans, and Manitobans see polar fritillary butterflies only every other year?" Alaska is a largeish state--1/5th the area of the contiguous 48 states, and nearly equal to them in linear extent. It's sometimes not safe to say that 'butterflies in Alaska' do thus and so--you have to add where _in_ Alaska. It's true that _Boloria polaris_ flies in odd years only in Interior Alaska (in alpine tundra)--but it flies every summer on the Seward Peninsula, in the Brooks Range, and on the North Slope. One may hope that the person at the publisher who wrote this blurb is the one who made the error, rather than the authors... Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Tue Sep 25 14:56:41 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:56:41 -0400 Subject: Don Lafointaine please help Message-ID: Here's a little tidbit record which came to me personally from Louis late last summer: Papilio machaon hudsonianus (Old World Swallowtail) taken at Radisson, Quebec (at the northern end of the James Bay Highway) on 23 July 2000. There is much of interest to find in the Province of Quebec (not the least of which is incredible natural beauty and miles and miles of bogland). > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynn Scott [SMTP:LynnScott at heiconsulting.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:42 PM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: Don Lafointaine please help > > Having just replied to someone else who had asked me about finding > Handfield's Guide des Papillons, I think the problem has been that the > publisher's name is misspelled in the messages below. The publisher's > website is still active at > > http://www.broquet.qc.ca > > Both the popular and the scientific editions are still listed under > titles in the Nature section, but I note the on-line order form appears > to be truncated and does not include either title. Phone and fax numbers > are provided on the site, however. > > I heartily endorse the recommendation to get the scientific edition if > you can. > > Lynn Scott > > > In article <3bb08463$0$1529$ac966d11 at news.raex.com>, spruance at infinet.com > says... > > Don Lafontaine: > > > > Help. > > > > The web site for Brouquet appears to be gone. A search of Amazon.com > for > > the ISBN nets zero results. Can you contact Louis to find out how to > buy > > his book. > > > > Please post answer here for all to see. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eric > > > > > > "Grkovich, Alex" wrote in message > > news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE50D7011 at NTFS2... > > > And make certain you purchase the "Scientific Version"; $89 Canadian, > a > > real > > > bargain. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Hi Y'all [SMTP:spruance at infinet.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:02 AM > > > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > > > > Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book > > > > > > > > You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is > > especially > > > > good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. > > Louis's > > > > book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with > > > > illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this > > geographical > > > > region. > > > > > > > > ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 > > > > > > > > Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca > > > > > > > > Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many > copies > > of > > > > Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be > > > > common > > > > on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can > put > > in > > > > a > > > > want. I've this with much success over the years. > > > > > > > > Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are > in > > -- > = = = = = > Lynn Scott LynnScott at heiconsulting.com > Visit http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Tue Sep 25 15:01:00 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:01:00 -0400 Subject: Don Lafointaine please help Message-ID: And, finally, the reason (or just one of them) for obtaining the Scientific Version is that specific localities for records are provided, in many cases pinpointed to a kilometer marker on a highway. This is simply an excellent book. > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynn Scott [SMTP:LynnScott at heiconsulting.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:42 PM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: Don Lafointaine please help > > Having just replied to someone else who had asked me about finding > Handfield's Guide des Papillons, I think the problem has been that the > publisher's name is misspelled in the messages below. The publisher's > website is still active at > > http://www.broquet.qc.ca > > Both the popular and the scientific editions are still listed under > titles in the Nature section, but I note the on-line order form appears > to be truncated and does not include either title. Phone and fax numbers > are provided on the site, however. > > I heartily endorse the recommendation to get the scientific edition if > you can. > > Lynn Scott > > > In article <3bb08463$0$1529$ac966d11 at news.raex.com>, spruance at infinet.com > says... > > Don Lafontaine: > > > > Help. > > > > The web site for Brouquet appears to be gone. A search of Amazon.com > for > > the ISBN nets zero results. Can you contact Louis to find out how to > buy > > his book. > > > > Please post answer here for all to see. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eric > > > > > > "Grkovich, Alex" wrote in message > > news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE50D7011 at NTFS2... > > > And make certain you purchase the "Scientific Version"; $89 Canadian, > a > > real > > > bargain. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Hi Y'all [SMTP:spruance at infinet.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:02 AM > > > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > > > > Subject: Re: Looking for a good Moth id book > > > > > > > > You must look up Louis Handfield's Papilions du Quebec. It is > > especially > > > > good for northeastern US, but also for the rest of North America. > > Louis's > > > > book is just like having a copy of the Hodges' Check List with > > > > illustrations. No other comes close to the coverage for this > > geographical > > > > region. > > > > > > > > ISBN: 2-89000-486-4 > > > > > > > > Published by Broquet. Visit their web site: www.brouquet.qc.ca > > > > > > > > Be sure to visit www.abebooks.com to look for used books. Many > copies > > of > > > > Holland's Moth Book are always listed. Covell is still too new to be > > > > common > > > > on used book lists, but www.abebooks.com has a place where you can > put > > in > > > > a > > > > want. I've this with much success over the years. > > > > > > > > Best wishes from Columbus Ohio where the cooler nights of Autumn are > in > > -- > = = = = = > Lynn Scott LynnScott at heiconsulting.com > Visit http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Tue Sep 25 16:33:33 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:33:33 -0400 Subject: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing References: Message-ID: <00e701c14601$58ae15c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Kenelm Philip wrote: > > Some of you may have received a mailing from the Mariposa Press > describing some new books. I was interested to read that the book 'But- > terflies of the World' by Sbordoni & Forestiero will answer the question > "...why do Norwegians, Alaskans, and Manitobans see polar fritillary > butterflies only every other year?" > > Alaska is a largeish state--1/5th the area of the contiguous 48 > states, and nearly equal to them in linear extent. It's sometimes not > safe to say that 'butterflies in Alaska' do thus and so--you have to add > where _in_ Alaska. It's true that _Boloria polaris_ flies in odd years > only in Interior Alaska (in alpine tundra)--but it flies every summer on > the Seward Peninsula, in the Brooks Range, and on the North Slope. > > One may hope that the person at the publisher who wrote this blurb > is the one who made the error, rather than the authors... > > Ken Philip > fnkwp at uaf.edu I think this is actually a fairly common error. Folks who live outside a region who have a good broad knowledge, but no or little specific knowledge of said region, end up putting out a good bit of misinformation due to assumptions. This is one reason why I endorse and use state and regional books so much - and have few on the eastern US, western US, or national scope. A "set" of books covering various states or areas of the eastern US, for example, basically renders owning an "eastern" field guide of little use - in my opinion. Post the publication of Butterflies of North America, James Scott has communicated with me more than one southeastern US species/subspecies treatment he would have done differently had he known more specifics. Specifics, often gained from our exchanges of information and specimens. One is A. midea midea being limited to the GA SC coast and A. midea annickae as a distinct ssp. The Butterflies of Canada is a very good book. But when compared to the Butterflies of British Columbia by Guppy and Shepard the differences are profound. In a way these are apples and oranges - but broad books (on any subject) can never supply the depth of information found in those of more limited scope. Thus, anyone who is interested in developing any kind of knowledgeable depth at all on Lepidoptera will have to invest in that great body of available literature that goes well beyond that the surface "guides" of today. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From OKaman at seznam.cz Tue Sep 25 16:31:58 2001 From: OKaman at seznam.cz (Ondrej) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:31:58 +0200 Subject: UK caterpillar id? References: <9oqgvp$edp$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Message-ID: <9oqpbm$hef$1@news.vol.cz> It must have been Mimas tiliae (Lime Hawkmoth). I think you should see http://tpittaway.tripod.com/sphinx/list.htm Ondrej ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Tue Sep 25 18:00:00 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:00:00 -0400 Subject: Gochfeld's West Nile op-ed] Message-ID: <3BB0FE60.B47083A2@eohsi.rutgers.edu> FYI----Since several people have asked me for my editorial on West Nile Virus, here is the first draft of my OP-ED piece. It was edited down to 600 words and published in the September 11, 2001 issue of the Newark Star Ledger. That was remarkably poor timing. Apparently no one saw it and no one has contacted me to complain about my callous treatment of this forlorn virus. Compared to the uncomprehensible events of that day, it's easy to forget West Nile (and many other public health problems). Michael Gochfeld wrote: > > ============================================================== > > THE NOT-SO-DEADLY WEST NILE VIRUS > > They sprayed Piscataway recently because a mosquito tested > positive for West Nile Virus. There was no fanfare, and only a modicum > of media coverage. What a difference two years make. West Nile Virus > burst upon the Western Hemisphere in 1999 with great fanfare, arousing > incredible anxiety and fear. > A combination of political expediency and media > hyperbole, captured and exploited this disease, before the public health > establishment could develop a clear understanding of how to respond. > This created a horror flick environment----an alien that attacks the > brain and can only be combated by airplanes spraying chemicals. > In the fall of 1999, virtually all media coverage referred to > it as the "Deadly West Nile Virus", thereby perpetuating the fear and > nullifying opposition to the aerial spray campaigns. Although public > health authorities soon issued advice to empower individuals to reduce > their risk by eliminating breeding places and avoiding mosquito bites, > media coverage focused instead on the body count and spray missions, > imparting the message, "you are helpless, stay indoors, and close the > windows." > There are indeed, deadly viruses, Ebola, is a well known > example which kills the vast majority of people who become infected and > spreads readily from person to person. And, "deadly" might apply to > Eastern Equine Encephalitis, which occurs sporadically in North America, > including New Jersey, and kills more than a quarter of those infected, > and may leave survivors permanently impaired. West Nile, however, is > better characterized as "a usually benign; very rarely fatal infection." > How do we know that West Nile does not deserve the name > "deadly". For one thing, there are many places in North Africa and the > Middle East, where more than half the population has antibodies > indicative of past infection with West Nile. These are all survivors. > Epidemiologic studies are more compelling. The first > well-studied European epidemic occurred in Romania in 1996; 352 people > were identified with the encephalitis or meningitis forms of West Nile > infection and 17 died (about 5%). That seems pretty severe. However, a > survey of blood samples estimated that about 94,000 people had been > infected. In other words less than half of one percent of infected > people got significantly sick, and few of those succumbed. I don't > mean to sound unsympathetic, but compared to many other public health > problems, West Nile was a meagre contributor to the death toll. > The New York epidemic of 1999 was similar. Of the 62 people > identified with serious manifestations of West Nile infection 7 died. > However, a serologic survey of people living in Queens and Staten Island > (both of which had a lot of cases), showed that many people had been > infected without even knowing it. In the main focus of disease in > northern Queens, extrapolation from the serological survey for > antibodies, yielded an estimate that 1288 out of about 46,000 > residents were infected, but only a tenth of one percent got severely > ill. Last year in Staten Island, the infection rate was about half of > one percent, yet only 10 people required hospitalization . This was > also half of one percent of those infected. And, none of these died. > Conclusion: very few were infected and very few of those who were > infected got sick. > Moreover, encephalitis and meningitis are not particularly rare > diseases in our area and there are many other causes besides West Nile. > But even in the last two years, West Nile has been responsible for only > a handful of cases (4% of 583 encephalitis cases tested in Connecticut, > New York, and New Jersey in 2000), Thus not only is West Nile rarely > deadly, but it is a relatively rare cause of these serious illnesses > which have been around for a long time. > Indeed, humans are not a normal host for West Nile virus and the > vast majority of people who are infected by the virus, never realize > that they are infected and have no symptoms at all. Of the less than > one percent of infected individuals who do get symptoms, only a small > percentage get the severe central nervous system syndrome of > encephalitis and/or meningitis. Only the latter condition, > West Nile Encephalitis, might warrant the designation of "deadly" since > somewhere between 5 and 15% of those who reach that point will succumb. > If people die of the disease at all, why does it matter how many > or what percent? It matters because the seriousness of the threat > determines the aggressiveness of the response. The greater the risk of > disease, the greater the risks we are willing to take to stop it. Back > in the dark ages of autumn 1999, the suggestion that aerial or broadcast > spraying of pesticides against adult mosquitoes was not only undesirable > but unnecessary was considered anaethema, a crackpot idea of the > environmental fringe. After all, the virus was "deadly". > By spring of 2000, howeer, the climate had changed. Public > health officials both at the federal Centers for Disease Control and > Prevention (CDC) and in state health departments, had rallied and began > delivering a common message. Spraying for adult mosquitoes was > relegated to its deserved last place among control methods. > The overall public health practices of eliminating mosquito > breeding places, treating standing water to kill larvae, and reducing > behavior conducive to mosquito bites, has finally won out and the > message is being gotten across. However, when NJDEP Commissioner Robert > Shinn announced a statewide tire cleanup, it garnered scant mention in > the press. > While all this debate over West Nile control goes on, about 2400 > people die each year of pneumonia and flu-like diseases in New Jersey, > not to mention over 300 dying from firearms-related events. The one > West Nile death in New Jersey in 2000, though tragic, doesn't begin to > approach the magnitude of these traditional public health problems which > rarely garner comparable media attention. > So what should we have learned from our misadventure with West > Nile virus. Health risks need to be understood in order to be balanced. > The intervention must be warranted by the risk. Despite reassurances > from pesticide manufacturers and applicators, the pesticides (both > active and inert ingredients) are not benign. Moreover, considering that > children rarely develops symptoms of West Nile infection, should parents > still be are urged to apply the neurotoxic repellant DEET to "protect" > their children. Now that one rarely hears the word "deadly" associated > with West Nile, it becomes much easier for individuals, health officials > and communities to make thoughtful decisions. West Nile Virus has now been detected over most of eastern North America. There have been several human cases and even one death (in Georgia) attributed to the virus. Its spread was predicted as early as 1999, yet health officials in Florida were beleagured by frantic calls to stop the invader. Proposals included wholesale destruction of bird populations, a draconian measure. Florida did report one case of Eastern Equine Encephalitis, a disease that warrants closer surveillance. > Individuals must feel empowered to control their own risk by > reducing exposure to mosquitoes through a combination of activities. > It's easier to make a house mosquito proof than spray proof. Most > mosquitoes that bite humans are not infected, and the vast majority of > people who become infected won't get sick. Spraying of adulticidal > pesticides are the LAST rather than FIRST measure for preventing an > outbreak of West Nile. Whether it can be justified for Eastern Equine, depends on the circumstance. Bird and mosquito surveillance are important and should cover multiple viruses. > Sound public health and effective risk communication remain important, > and West Nile has reinforced that lesson. All this is said while > extending sympathy to the victims of West Nile and their families, as > well as the victims of dozens of other more widespread, more serious and > preventable public health problems. Michael Gochfeld is a Professor of occupational medicine and environmental toxicology in the Department of Environmental and Community Medicine of UMDNJ's Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and a member of the Environmental and Occupational Health Institute. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Tue Sep 25 18:35:26 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:35:26 -0700 Subject: boloria eunomia/ossianus Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB525@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Anyone know of any published or unpublished evidence that supports treating ossianus as a subspecies of eunomia ?? Looking for anything other than genitalia since genitalic similarity (if in fact they are similar) only proves that the genitalia are similar and classifying genitalia is not the same as classifying butterflies. Thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca Tue Sep 25 18:46:28 2001 From: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca (Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:46:28 -0700 Subject: Aricia icarioides and J.C. Downey Message-ID: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB526@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Back in the 1960's Downey published some really interesting work on the biology of the nominal species Aricia icarioides. Also placed in other genera in the older literature but I am referring to that common blue butterfly that normally swarms in lupine patches in the west part of USA and SW Canada. Anyone have any citations that provide support for the taxonomic arrangement that has been in place for the past 30 or more years ? I can't find anything and field work this year makes me very suspicious of what I see in the literature. did Downey ever publish anything on the taxonomy of this group, other than what he wrote in Howe 1975 ? is there a thesis somewhere on this topic ?? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 Phone 250-365-8610 Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca http://www.env.gov.bc.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Walter.Schoen at t-online.de Tue Sep 25 18:30:46 2001 From: Walter.Schoen at t-online.de (Walter Schön) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:30:46 +0200 Subject: UK caterpillar id? References: <9oqgvp$edp$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Message-ID: <9or0oo$sh6$07$1@news.t-online.com> Hello, I think of Mimas tiliae (Lime Hawk-moth) as well. Have a look at http://www.schmetterling-raupe.de/tiliae.htm Walter Schoen www.schmetterling-raupe.de German Butterfly-Site with more than 170 portraits of butterflies and moths ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mjs323 at aol.com Tue Sep 25 18:40:38 2001 From: mjs323 at aol.com (MJS323) Date: 25 Sep 2001 22:40:38 GMT Subject: Panoquina in Nevada? References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279F17@hqmail.gensym.com> Message-ID: <20010925184038.11315.00000790@mb-fv.aol.com> Mark; The now endangered skipper from alkaline areas of Nevada is Pseucopaeodes eunus obscura. This was described from a once common location near the Carson City airport in western Nevada. This habitat is now destroyed due to development and alteration of the water table needed for the saltgrass, etc. Populations are apparently known near Honey Lake in Lassen Co., CA and Washoe Co., NV. The other subspecies of P. eunus, which is found throughout the Great Basin and Mojave Desert in appropriate habitat, are not under this protection. Mike Smith ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Leptraps at aol.com Tue Sep 25 20:37:37 2001 From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:37:37 EDT Subject: Don Lafointaine please help Message-ID: <133.225643a.28e27d51@aol.com> I contacted Broquet Publishing today and learned that Papilions du Quebec (Scientific Version) is now out of print. I have tried all the used boo websites and have been unable to locate a copy. Any suggestions? Or does anyone know of or have a copy for sale? Cheers, Leroy C. Koehn 202 Redding Road Georgetown, Kentucky USA 40324-2622 Tele.: 502-570-9123 Cell: 502-803-5422 E-mail: Leptraps at aol.com "Let's get among them" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010925/f275cfb9/attachment.html From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu Tue Sep 25 21:55:57 2001 From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:55:57 -0400 Subject: Genitalic phylogeny References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB525@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3BB135AC.F6EA79CD@eohsi.rutgers.edu> In response to Norbert's inquiry on S.boloria. At an International herp congress in the early 1990's there was a session on snake classification with a heated debate on whether the phylogeny based on hemipenis-morphology was superior to that based on other characters (biochemical but not molecular traits included). The hemipenis guys won on shear confidence in their moral authority. Mike Gochfeld "Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX" wrote: > Anyone know of any published or unpublished evidence that supports treating > ossianus as a subspecies of eunomia ?? Looking for anything other than > genitalia since genitalic similarity (if in fact they are similar) only > proves that the genitalia are similar and classifying genitalia is not the > same as classifying butterflies. Thanks. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Norbert Kondla P.Biol., RPBio. > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3 > Phone 250-365-8610 > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From LynnScott at heiconsulting.com Wed Sep 26 00:57:25 2001 From: LynnScott at heiconsulting.com (Lynn Scott) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 04:57:25 GMT Subject: Handfield's Le Guide des Papillons du Quebec References: <133.225643a.28e27d51@aol.com> Message-ID: I think the first printing of the first edition of Le Guide des Papillons du Quebec was a very small print run, at least for the scientific edition, so not surprising if it is sold out. If there is enough demand out there, why not try asking the publisher, Broquet, if it would be possible to do a second printing? I do know it will be a good long time before I'll be finished with my copy, by which time it would be in a very thoroughly used condition. Lynn Scott In article <133.225643a.28e27d51 at aol.com>, Leptraps at aol.com says... > I contacted Broquet Publishing today and learned that Papilions du Quebec > (Scientific Version) is now out of print. > > I have tried all the used boo websites and have been unable to locate a copy. > Any suggestions? Or does anyone know of or have a copy for sale? > > Cheers, > Leroy C. Koehn > 202 Redding Road > Georgetown, Kentucky > USA 40324-2622 > Tele.: 502-570-9123 > Cell: 502-803-5422 > E-mail: Leptraps at aol.com > > "Let's get among them" > -- = = = = = Lynn Scott LynnScott at heiconsulting.com Visit http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From agrkovich at tmpeng.com Wed Sep 26 07:50:55 2001 From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:50:55 -0400 Subject: Handfield's Le Guide des Papillons du Quebec Message-ID: It is my understanding that Louis intends to have revised issues published. > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynn Scott [SMTP:LynnScott at heiconsulting.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:57 AM > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu > Subject: Re: Handfield's Le Guide des Papillons du Quebec > > I think the first printing of the first edition of Le Guide des Papillons > du Quebec was a very small print run, at least for the scientific > edition, so not surprising if it is sold out. If there is enough demand > out there, why not try asking the publisher, Broquet, if it would be > possible to do a second printing? I do know it will be a good long time > before I'll be finished with my copy, by which time it would be in a very > thoroughly used condition. > > Lynn Scott > > In article <133.225643a.28e27d51 at aol.com>, Leptraps at aol.com says... > > I contacted Broquet Publishing today and learned that Papilions du > Quebec > > (Scientific Version) is now out of print. > > > > I have tried all the used boo websites and have been unable to locate a > copy. > > Any suggestions? Or does anyone know of or have a copy for sale? > > > > Cheers, > > Leroy C. Koehn > > 202 Redding Road > > Georgetown, Kentucky > > USA 40324-2622 > > Tele.: 502-570-9123 > > Cell: 502-803-5422 > > E-mail: Leptraps at aol.com > > > > "Let's get among them" > > > > -- > = = = = = > Lynn Scott LynnScott at heiconsulting.com > Visit http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mbpi at juno.com Wed Sep 26 10:18:39 2001 From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:18:39 -0500 Subject: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing Message-ID: <20010926.091842.-285719.5.mbpi@juno.com> Hi Ron, and All... I'm afraid that one has to "start" somewhere, whether or not it is the "full monty" or half-baked. It leads to questions by the discerning reader, and prompts them to delve further into the available literature...if they are so inclined. I think it is "unfair" to poo-poo any literature that doesn't state "all the facts" or back-up its assumptions or conjectures. Even Darwin didn't fully comprehend what he had discovered in his original "journal" pubication (!) So what! That doesn't discount his initial findings! It gave him, and others, an opportunity to expand on his discoveries, and obviously opened up countless other venues for research, speculation and argument. If I were to make a comparison in my humble opinion (ha!): I started learning computers when they first entered the mainstream, and despite the fact that just about any dolt can "point and click" a mouse button through a menu, how many people really "know" how a computer program works, much less the potential they have at their fingertips (!) I'd say few...VERY few. And that's because they didn't start at "ground zero." I can attest that there is so much superfluous BS ensconced in computer programming today, that even the most ignorant individual can work his/her way through the myriad of menus provided to obtain some semblance of "results" to satisfy his or her needs. I can also attest that much of what is available to the "average Joe" is unnecessary, and designed to "make money" in the lucrative field of computer technology. I lost interest in computer technology when it became glutted with exteraneous BS that rendered it impossible to actually "use it" to its fullest potential. And I feel sorry for those who don't realize that potential because they have had the technology "dictated" to them instead of having to figure it all out from its inception. You'd be surprised at what you've missed (!) Yes, I am a "computer snob," and you, Ron, are a "Lepidoptera snob" :-) So it is with learning about Lepidoptera. I may not be as "old as Methusala" or spent the last 10,000 years studying the evolution of "knowledge" on the aforementioned subject, but please don't discount the current "field guides" or lack of appropriate back-up research. They are just as relevant to the masses as our currently "dumbed down" computer technology... (!) M.B. Prondzinski USA On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:33:33 -0400 "Ron Gatrelle" writes: > > Kenelm Philip wrote: > > > > Some of you may have received a mailing from the Mariposa Press > > describing some new books. I was interested to read that the book > 'But- > > terflies of the World' by Sbordoni & Forestiero will answer the > question > > "...why do Norwegians, Alaskans, and Manitobans see polar > fritillary > > butterflies only every other year?" > > > > Alaska is a largeish state--1/5th the area of the contiguous 48 > > states, and nearly equal to them in linear extent. It's sometimes > not > > safe to say that 'butterflies in Alaska' do thus and so--you have > to add > > where _in_ Alaska. It's true that _Boloria polaris_ flies in odd > years > > only in Interior Alaska (in alpine tundra)--but it flies every > summer on > > the Seward Peninsula, in the Brooks Range, and on the North Slope. > > > > One may hope that the person at the publisher who wrote this blurb > > is the one who made the error, rather than the authors... > > > > Ken Philip > > fnkwp at uaf.edu > > I think this is actually a fairly common error. Folks who live > outside a > region who have a good broad knowledge, but no or little specific > knowledge > of said region, end up putting out a good bit of misinformation due > to > assumptions. This is one reason why I endorse and use state and > regional > books so much - and have few on the eastern US, western US, or > national > scope. A "set" of books covering various states or areas of the > eastern > US, for example, basically renders owning an "eastern" field guide > of > little use - in my opinion. > > Post the publication of Butterflies of North America, James Scott > has > communicated with me more than one southeastern US > species/subspecies > treatment he would have done differently had he known more > specifics. > Specifics, often gained from our exchanges of information and > specimens. > One is A. midea midea being limited to the GA SC coast and A. midea > annickae as a distinct ssp. > > The Butterflies of Canada is a very good book. But when compared to > the > Butterflies of British Columbia by Guppy and Shepard the differences > are > profound. In a way these are apples and oranges - but broad books > (on any > subject) can never supply the depth of information found in those of > more > limited scope. Thus, anyone who is interested in developing any > kind of > knowledgeable depth at all on Lepidoptera will have to invest in > that great > body of available literature that goes well beyond that the surface > "guides" of today. > > Ron Gatrelle > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spm23 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 26 11:18:32 2001 From: spm23 at cornell.edu (Sean Patrick Mullen) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:18:32 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema Message-ID: Hello everyone...perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY. I was wondering if anyone on the list has had success with digital photography? I'm planning to do some controlled crosses between phenotypically "pure" individuals of the Red-Spotted Admiral group. I want to take digital images of the resulting wing color patterns so that I can use a computer program to analyze them. Any suggestions? Ideally, I'd like to get a camera that could take nice pictures in the lab but also be useful for field photography but that may be asking too much. Oh yeah, if I could get one for less that a grand it would be nice too!!!! Thanks for your advice. -Sean Mullen P.S. -To everyone on the list who sent me specimens over the summer...THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. They have been invaluable as genetic samples. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnjjk1 at uaf.edu Wed Sep 26 12:18:42 2001 From: fnjjk1 at uaf.edu (James Kruse) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:18:42 -0800 Subject: Handfield's Le Guide des Papillons du Quebec In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Broquet says there will be another run in April or May. James J. Kruse, Ph.D. Curator of Entomology University of Alaska Museum 907 Yukon Drive Fairbanks, AK, USA 99775-6960 tel 907.474.5579 fax 907.474.1987 http://www.uaf.edu/museum/ento on 9/25/01 8:57 PM, Lynn Scott at LynnScott at heiconsulting.com wrote: > I think the first printing of the first edition of Le Guide des Papillons > du Quebec was a very small print run, at least for the scientific > edition, so not surprising if it is sold out. If there is enough demand > out there, why not try asking the publisher, Broquet, if it would be > possible to do a second printing? I do know it will be a good long time > before I'll be finished with my copy, by which time it would be in a very > thoroughly used condition. > > Lynn Scott > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From lutzrun at avalon.net Wed Sep 26 13:00:37 2001 From: lutzrun at avalon.net (Martha Rosett Lutz) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:00:37 -0500 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema Message-ID: For less than a grand? I suggest going to a reputable dealer (someone respected in the community, rather than a discount store) and asking to see what they've got by Olympus. Sean Mullen also wrote: "perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY" Hmmm. Gorgeous, high 50's and sunny with a little breeze here in Iowa, but I'd trade places in a heartbeat because the only way I can study entomology right now is to be a distance student at UNL. My older daughter (HS senior; the one with 1600/1600 on her SAT) wants to enroll at Cornell U., and if she does she'll find Mom a frequent visitor. On the leps front: a few weeks ago we had a lot of Monarchs in the area, but I haven't seen any this week. On September the 8th my youngest son picked up a lovely Eacles larva. I persuaded my husband to buy some nice potting soil and I helped my 7-year-old fill a 3-gallon ice cream bucket with dirt. Then we put the caterpillar in. It went underground with delightful promptness, and a week later we carefully dumped out the dirt and found the pupa. He understands that it has to be kept at outdoor temperatures and that it won't hatch until next spring. Insects can be a great way to teach deferred gratification and long-term goals. In Stride, Martha Rosett Lutz a.k.a. the old lady sprinter in Iowa ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From spruance at infinet.com Wed Sep 26 14:46:55 2001 From: spruance at infinet.com (Eric or Pat Metzler) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:46:55 -0400 Subject: Annual Meeting in Columbus Ohio features John Rawlins Message-ID: <3BB2229F.5070101@infinet.com> ANNUAL FALL MEETING OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY MUSEUM OF BIO-LOGICAL DIVERSITY, SATURDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2001, COLUMBUS, OHIO On Saturday October 20th, 2001, The Ohio Lepidopterists will hold its Annual Fall Meeting at the Museum of Biological Diversity at the Ohio State University. The Museum is at 1315 Kinnear Road on west campus (see map). The doors will open at 9:00 am. The morning is a good time to meet new people and visit with old friends and share tales of the season's adventures. Also there will be presentations all morning in the Auditorium of the museum presented by members of The Butterfly Observers Group. See the separate note about this later in this mailing. All are welcome to join the morning presentations as they wish. The sales program will be on hand, so bring your check book. The afternoon session begins at 1:30 pm in the Auditorium with our key note speaker Dr. John Rawlins from the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh. John is a world renown Lepidopterist who will present a slide talk on Caterpillars. This should help us all ID many of the caterpillars we see in the field or even in our own back yards. John, a long time member of The Ohio Lepidopterists, will speak for one hour after which members may give short presentations. Those wishing to give short presentations must contact Dave Parshall, so time can be planned. There will be a short business meeting followed by usual door prize drawings and dinner at a local restaurant. You can reach Dave Parshall at: 4424 Rosemary Parkway, Columbus OH 43214; 614 262 4943; 614.262.0058; or dpohlep at columbus.rr.com Be sure to bring a door prize. The board of The Ohio Lepidopterists hopes to see you all at our Fall Meeting this October. MORNING PROGRAM FOR THE ANNUAL FALL MEETING During the morning of the TOL fall meeting on October 20th., the following presentations sponsored by the BOG, the Butterfly Observers Group, will be presented for all who are interested. The presentations will be in the auditorium of the Museum of Biological Diversity. The program begins at 9:15 am. 9: 15 Introduction to the BOG group and the morning presentations. 9:30 Photographs of Lepidopterian life stages ____ by Leslie Angel. 10:00 Caterpillar Rearing _____ Valerie Passoa. 10:30 Preparing Butterfly Gardens for Winter ____ Jim Davidson. 11:00 Highlights and low lights of the 2001 BOG Field trips ____ Dave Parshall. 11:30 New "binoc" options for butterflies ____Wild Birds Unlimited. 12:00 Noon Lunch break before TOL afternoon session. SATURDAY, 20 OCTOBER 2001 IS FOOTBALL SATURDAY IN COLUMBUS, OHIO Because of the recent tragedy of terrorist attacks in America, an Ohio State University football game is rescheduled for Saturday, 20 October 2001 in Columbus, Ohio. Saturday football game days in Columbus usually create increased traffic, some motels and hotels being filled to capacity, and longer lines at restaurants Saturday evenings. The additional traffic is most noticeable about 1-2 hours before the game and after the game beginning in the 4th quarter until about 1 hour after the game is finished. The starting time of the game was not available when this announcement was prepared, so we could not predict times of most traffic. Usually, game time is announced on the Monday preceding the game. The Museum of Biological Diversity is on west campus and away from most game activity. Parking should be available at or near the Museum. Some of the main streets are switched to One Way traffic, or closed to all except game traffic during peak traffic hours, but other streets are unaffected. Some of us regularly travel to the Museum on home game days with little difficulty. So, come early, and stay until the end of the day. You'll have no difficulties. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From too at much.spam Wed Sep 26 14:39:33 2001 From: too at much.spam (Alan Prignoli) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:39:33 +0100 Subject: UK caterpillar id? References: <9oqgvp$edp$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, <9or0oo$sh6$07$1@news.t-online.com> Message-ID: <9ot7ae$et5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> Ah yes. The colours are a little different but that's a pretty good match otherwise. Thanks guys. "Walter Sch?n" wrote in message news:9or0oo$sh6$07$1 at news.t-online.com... > Hello, > > I think of Mimas tiliae (Lime Hawk-moth) as well. > > Have a look at > > http://www.schmetterling-raupe.de/tiliae.htm > > Walter Schoen > www.schmetterling-raupe.de > German Butterfly-Site with more than 170 portraits of butterflies and moths > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From viceroy at GATE.NET Wed Sep 26 16:05:55 2001 From: viceroy at GATE.NET (Anne Kilmer) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:05:55 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema References: Message-ID: <3BB23523.51134900@GATE.NET> Sean Patrick Mullen wrote: > > Hello everyone...perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY. > > I was wondering if anyone on the list has had success with digital photography? > > I'm planning to do some controlled crosses between phenotypically > "pure" individuals of the Red-Spotted Admiral group. I want to take > digital images of the resulting wing color patterns so that I can use > a computer program to analyze them. Any suggestions? > > Ideally, I'd like to get a camera that could take nice pictures in > the lab but also be useful for field photography but that may be > asking too much. Oh yeah, if I could get one for less that a grand > it would be nice too!!!! > > Thanks for your advice. > > -Sean Mullen > > I love my Nikon Coolpix 995. You can take a perfectly enormous photo with it, or a lot of little ones, and resolutions rival proper film. About a grand is what you'd be spending. And you'd want more batteries and more "film" so the price edges up. But oh, the little thing makes me so happy. And my husband can use it too; he is totally unmechanical and children laugh at him in the street, but he can point and shoot. Instant gratification, how lovely. Anne Kilmer South Florida ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From cwcook at duke.edu Wed Sep 26 15:29:56 2001 From: cwcook at duke.edu (Will Cook) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:29:56 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema References: Message-ID: <3BB22CB4.F823774F@duke.edu> There are plenty of great digital cameras available for less than $1000. The Nikon CoolPix series in particular is renowned for its macro capability without additional attachments and can focus down to about 2 cm. Here are some scaled-down butterfly shots I took with a Nikon CoolPix 995: http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/pix/butterflies.html - including one shot of a beat-up Red-spotted Purple. The originals are 2048 x 1536 pixels. The 995 is available for $800 or less and earlier (discontinued) models are much cheaper. See this site for the latest reviews and developments in the world of digital photography: http://www.dpreview.com/ Sean Patrick Mullen wrote: > > Hello everyone...perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY. > > I was wondering if anyone on the list has had success with digital photography? > > I'm planning to do some controlled crosses between phenotypically > "pure" individuals of the Red-Spotted Admiral group. I want to take > digital images of the resulting wing color patterns so that I can use > a computer program to analyze them. Any suggestions? > > Ideally, I'd like to get a camera that could take nice pictures in > the lab but also be useful for field photography but that may be > asking too much. Oh yeah, if I could get one for less that a grand > it would be nice too!!!! -- Charles W. "Will" Cook w 919-660-7423 http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook cwcook at duke.edu Box 90340, Biology Dept., Duke Univ., Durham, NC 27708 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From billcor at mail.mcn.org Wed Sep 26 14:21:39 2001 From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:21:39 -0500 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema References: Message-ID: <3BB21CB2.809D7E10@mail.mcn.org> Sean: The camera I use (sony dv w/ photo option) has an automatic light meter & white balance. (I got it on ebay) It takes beter pictures in less than full light. Full light is fine but the colors are stark without the white balance, with it, one needs a filter which takes time to attach, meanwhile the shot flies away. My solution is to catch the buggers and put them in a refrigerator till they're managable, then use a pre- selected location where I have time to set up right. Bill Sean Patrick Mullen wrote: > Hello everyone...perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY. > > I was wondering if anyone on the list has had success with digital photography? > > I'm planning to do some controlled crosses between phenotypically > "pure" individuals of the Red-Spotted Admiral group. I want to take > digital images of the resulting wing color patterns so that I can use > a computer program to analyze them. Any suggestions? > > Ideally, I'd like to get a camera that could take nice pictures in > the lab but also be useful for field photography but that may be > asking too much. Oh yeah, if I could get one for less that a grand > it would be nice too!!!! > > Thanks for your advice. > > -Sean Mullen > > P.S. -To everyone on the list who sent me specimens over the > summer...THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. They have been invaluable > as genetic samples. >  > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >  For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > >  http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl >  ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From koen.berwaerts at ua.ac.be Thu Sep 27 03:46:56 2001 From: koen.berwaerts at ua.ac.be (Koen Berwaerts) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:46:56 +0200 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema References: Message-ID: <3BB2D970.B3036CB@ua.ac.be> Hi, We have some experience in digital photography. We use an Olympus Camedia digital camera C-3030 zoom to make pictures of our (small) butterfly wings. Afterwards we measure some morphological characters on these images with an image analysing system (Optimas-software). If you want to measure colours or grey values, you have to standardize your light conditions. I'm afraid it is not easy to make reliable pictures in the field, just try and see ... . With kind regards, koen Sean Patrick Mullen wrote: > Hello everyone...perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY. > > I was wondering if anyone on the list has had success with digital photography? > > I'm planning to do some controlled crosses between phenotypically > "pure" individuals of the Red-Spotted Admiral group. I want to take > digital images of the resulting wing color patterns so that I can use > a computer program to analyze them. Any suggestions? > > Ideally, I'd like to get a camera that could take nice pictures in > the lab but also be useful for field photography but that may be > asking too much. Oh yeah, if I could get one for less that a grand > it would be nice too!!!! > > Thanks for your advice. > > -Sean Mullen > > P.S. -To everyone on the list who sent me specimens over the > summer...THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. They have been invaluable > as genetic samples. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > -- Koen Berwaerts Laboratory of Animal Ecology Department of Biology University of Antwerp (U.I.A.) Universiteitsplein 1 B-2610 Wilrijk (Antwerp) - Belgium Tel.: +32 3 820 22 93 - Fax.: +32 3 820 22 71 E-mail: koen.berwaerts at ua.ac.be Http://bio-www.uia.ac.be/bio/deco/butterfly ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se Thu Sep 27 03:47:21 2001 From: Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se (Niklas Wahlberg) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:47:21 +0200 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927093830.00ba0be8@mail.it.su.se> I've been using a Minolta Dimage 2330 Zoom (looks like a pitiful pocket camera!) to take pictures of all my Phyciodes voucher specimens. It focuses in to perhaps 5 cm (I haven't needed to try that close, Phyciodes are just too big!). I'm very happy with the resolution. I've also tested it in the field with live butterflies but the problem is that it's a bit slow to take the picture after pressing the button, but on the other hand, you're not wasting film! This one cost me 600-700 USD (can't remember the currency rate at the moment). Cheers, Niklas At 11:18 2001.09.26 -0400, Sean Patrick Mullen wrote: >Hello everyone...perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY. > >I was wondering if anyone on the list has had success with digital >photography? > >I'm planning to do some controlled crosses between phenotypically >"pure" individuals of the Red-Spotted Admiral group. I want to take >digital images of the resulting wing color patterns so that I can use >a computer program to analyze them. Any suggestions? > >Ideally, I'd like to get a camera that could take nice pictures in >the lab but also be useful for field photography but that may be >asking too much. Oh yeah, if I could get one for less that a grand >it would be nice too!!!! > >Thanks for your advice. > >-Sean Mullen > > >P.S. -To everyone on the list who sent me specimens over the >summer...THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. They have been invaluable >as genetic samples. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl Niklas Wahlberg Department of Zoology Stockholm University S-106 91 Stockholm SWEDEN Phone: +46 8 164047 Fax: +46 8 167715 http://www.zoologi.su.se/research/ihp/ ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From 1_iron at msn.com Thu Sep 27 05:25:08 2001 From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:25:08 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema References: Message-ID: <003401c14736$4ee633c0$fc890a3f@1swch01> I second Martha's suggestion. I did exactly that a couple of months ago - and I took a box of moths with me to the store. We tried various cameras, starting with the least expensive, until I was happy with the detail. I walked out with an Olympus. I have taken hundreds of pics of my bugs (using a small tripod) and have used it outdoors as well. By the way, digitals use about as much electricity as a medium-sized toaster; buy a transformer as well. Jim Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martha Rosett Lutz" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Digital Camera Dilema > For less than a grand? I suggest going to a reputable dealer (someone > respected in the community, rather than a discount store) and asking to see > what they've got by Olympus. > > > Sean Mullen also wrote: > > "perfectly dreary, and typical, day here in Ithaca, NY" > > Hmmm. Gorgeous, high 50's and sunny with a little breeze here in Iowa, but > I'd trade places in a heartbeat because the only way I can study entomology > right now is to be a distance student at UNL. My older daughter (HS > senior; the one with 1600/1600 on her SAT) wants to enroll at Cornell U., > and if she does she'll find Mom a frequent visitor. > > On the leps front: a few weeks ago we had a lot of Monarchs in the area, > but I haven't seen any this week. On September the 8th my youngest son > picked up a lovely Eacles larva. I persuaded my husband to buy some nice > potting soil and I helped my 7-year-old fill a 3-gallon ice cream bucket > with dirt. Then we put the caterpillar in. It went underground with > delightful promptness, and a week later we carefully dumped out the dirt > and found the pupa. He understands that it has to be kept at outdoor > temperatures and that it won't hatch until next spring. > > Insects can be a great way to teach deferred gratification and long-term goals. > > In Stride, > Martha Rosett Lutz > a.k.a. the old lady sprinter in Iowa > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From ievsikov at flowpath.com Thu Sep 27 09:51:18 2001 From: ievsikov at flowpath.com (Igor Evsikov) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:51:18 -0400 Subject: Scientific and engineering expresson calculator+grapher * unit converter/(MATRIX^COMPLEX) Message-ID: WiSCy99 v4.26 for (Windows'9x/NT/2000) is the complete and-to-use scientific calculator http://www.simtel.net/pub/pd/17596.shtml. The results of calculation can be visualization, printing as graphic, as text or saving to disk. Unit Converter is pre-configured to convert over 500 units in 30 categories and editor for custom units conversion.Periodic table of the elements utility provides basic and extended properties of the elements. Complex and MATRIX operations is available. - Arithmetic and logical operators and functions - Common functions such as exp, ln, sqrt, sqr, bnml etc. - Common, trigonometric, hyperbolic complex functions - Trigonometric, Hyperbolic functions - Numerical Integration - Equations can be solved - Special functions (Gamma, Bessel's, Si, Ci, erf, erfc, Fresnel's) - Statistic functions (Average, Standard deviation, Sum, Random, Gauss random, statistical variance, etc ) - FOR-type loop - if (...) then (...) else (...) function - Tape of results - Assistant and debug: error position fixed - Plot f(X), Contour Plot f(X,Y), Color Shading f(X,Y), real 3D-Plot f(X,Y), Derivative, Fit. - Print results, graphics and print preview - Save graphics to BMP, WMF, EMF formats - Matrix Operations(A+B=C, A-B=C, A*B=C, inverse(A)=C, Power(A,n)=C, det |A|=C[1.1], Solve A(X)=C) - Decimal, Hexadecimal and Binary bases - Fixed point, Scientific, Engineering and Sexagesimal notations - Radian and Degree modes for trigonometric functions - Precision: 10-12 significant digits. - Range: _(3.4E-4392 to 1.1E+4392) - 10 pre defined variables, user define variables - User define functions - 30 user defined constants (up to 16000), search and edit file with constants. - Stack for expressions (up to 16000) - Stack for results (up to 16000) - Unit Converter - Custom unit converter - Evaluate expressions from file - Simple tape calculator - Periodic table of the elements Special requirements: None. Changes: Added Periodic table of the elements More than 400 units in 20 categories Igor Evsikov ievsikov at flowpath.com ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Thu Sep 27 13:59:06 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:59:06 -0400 Subject: Digital camera Message-ID: <009b01c1477e$1a841640$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> I don't own a camera of any kind and obviously don't do pictures. Everyone else in my family from the 13 year to the 33 year old "kids" and the wife are all photo buffs ranging from beginner to semi-professional. I asked my son-in-law Joe about the digital camera question as for the last year and a half he has taken all the photos for The Taxonomic Report. His response is below. We take all our pictures outside in natural light. We use two set ups. One is in slight shade to eliminate shadows. The other is to place the insect pin on a long narrow wooden dowel ("sticky tack" on end of dowel) which takes the specimen far away from the background to eliminate shadows. The quality of these pictures can be seen in the photos section of the TILS web site http://www.tils-ttr,org All these on line photos have been significantly reduced from their original size. With a good zoom there is no need to get closer than 6 to 8 inches to the subject. Check out the Papilio joanae photos in particular - you can tell they were taken is sun light by the translucency of the wings. Ron Joe says: This is a link to the camera I have: Olympus D-460 Here is a link to an Olympus Filmless Digital Cameras product (D-460 Zoom) that may be of interest to you: http://www.olympus.com/product_email.asp?product=524&s=12&p=16&id=17047 At www.olympusamerica.com you can also learn about the full range of Olympus products, including digital and 35mm cameras, camera accessories, digital photo printers, binoculars and voice recorders. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From birdcr at concentric.net Thu Sep 27 18:29:56 2001 From: birdcr at concentric.net (Randy Emmitt) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:29:56 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema In-Reply-To: <003401c14736$4ee633c0$fc890a3f@1swch01> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010927180449.027a7d00@pop3.concentric.net> Folks, Here`s my take on digital cameras ( I own a Canon EOS1N 35mm film camera BTW). I`ve been looking at getting a digital because of the depth of field (DOF)being nearly 4 times greater than a 35 mm camera. The reason for the increased DOF is the small CCDs usually they are 1 1/8 inch CCDs. Granted these 3.3 megapixel cameras like the Nikon Coolpix 990 or 995 and Canon G1 can not come even close to the resolution of a 35 mm film camera. At best I think you can get a 8 mb file from these digitals and a 35 mm slide you can get 25 mb files with a 2700 dpi film scanner and nearly 100 mb files with a 4000 dpi film scanner. In other words printed at 300 dpi (production quality work) the 8 mb digital file might if lucky print to 8 x 10 @330 dpi (not 72 dpi) where as a 100 mb file should print nicely to 20 x 24 @300 dpi which is actually 4 times larger. If I was to buy a digital right now in the $1000 price range it would either be the Canon G2 3.92 megapixels priced at $900 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?cameras=canon_g2&method=sidebyside or the Nikon Coolpix 5000 4.92 megapixel priced at $1100 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?cameras=nikon_cp5000&method=sidebyside The Nikon looks real nice but the Canon is sweet too and I have various flashes already it could use too. I`m stalled on buying one because Canon is just releasing a new SLR type digital the EOS D! 4.1 megapixel for $7000 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?cameras=canon_g2&method=sidebyside and the awesome EOS D30 (SLR type)might drop from the $2800 a good bit when pros trade up for the EOS D! to hopefully under $1300 then I would snatch one up as my EOS lens could also be able to be used and at 1.6x there normal size, in other words my 100 mm macro lens would become a 160mm macro lens. Randy Emmitt Rougemont, NC Randy Emmitt Photography http://www.rlephoto.com Carolina Butterfly Society webmaster http://www.carolinabutterflysociety.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From cbird at heartland.ab.ca Thu Sep 27 18:43:16 2001 From: cbird at heartland.ab.ca (Charles Bird) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:43:16 -0600 Subject: Handfield's =?iso-8859-1?Q?"Le_guide_des_papillons_du_Q=FAebec"?= , Vol. II. Micromoths. Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010927163801.00a7a2e0@heartland.ab.ca> Does anyone know when Vol. II of Handfield's "Le guide des papillons du Q?ebec" will be out? I have found his Vol. I, Macromoths, to be very useful and I can hardly wait for Vol. II. Charles Bird, Box 22, Erskine, Alberta, Canada, T0C 1G0 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mtyner4 at home.com Thu Sep 27 22:25:03 2001 From: mtyner4 at home.com (Mike Tyner) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:25:03 -0500 Subject: digital cameras Message-ID: With all deference to those opinions already expressed I would tell anyone who is looking to look very seriously at the Nikon Coolpix cameras. I have a 990 (now out of production?current model is 995) and have no regrets about the resolution you can obtain. There are 4 different resolution settings available. The fine setting will give you a file that is 16 mb in size. I use the basic setting almost exclusively and have had some images (not leps though) published. These images in basic can be enlarged to 8 x 10 with no trouble at all. You can do close-up (macro) down to less than 1 inch. If you choose to go to the newest models at between 5 and 6 mega pixels you will pay considerably more. I paid $899.00 for mine a year ago and the new model can be found in the magazine ads for $500 to $600. A great advantage of this camera is the rotatable lense section. It makes for being able to get some shots you would otherwise pass up. In addition, there are add-on lenses available as well. Have a Great and Glorious Day Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010927/dc9e0dcf/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 530 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/private/leps-l/attachments/20010927/dc9e0dcf/attachment.gif From kevwiner at aol.com Thu Sep 27 23:13:42 2001 From: kevwiner at aol.com (Kevwiner) Date: 28 Sep 2001 03:13:42 GMT Subject: Insect ID Message-ID: <20010927231342.22370.00000581@mb-ck.aol.com> Dear Sir or Madam, I was hoping you could help me ID an apparent insect in my garden or direct me to someone who might. I observed (in the Kansas City, MO area) an insect with a hummingbird-like flight and was feeding on nectar. It was not a hummingbird. Wing tip to top was approx. 4-5 in. The color horizontal stripes on the back of its wings, from top to bottom, were white/black/white/and bright orange. The body was approx. 3 in. long. The back side of the upper body part was solid white and the remaining 2/3rds had narrow black and white horizontal stripes. Sincerely, Kevin Winer ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From webmaster at insectnet.com Fri Sep 28 01:59:12 2001 From: webmaster at insectnet.com (Clark) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:59:12 GMT Subject: Check out my photo album Message-ID: New photos have been added to the 'Photo' section at InsectNet.com in the last few weeks: http://www.insectnet.com/photoalbum.htm I have added some pictures of the Great Purple Hairstreak, Lorquin's Admiral, and California Sister in the 'Fauna' section, plus some related habitat photos and rearing photos in the 'In the Field' and 'Techniques' sections. Ron Nelson has contributed some larvae and pupae photos in the 'Fauna' section. Walter and Phil Torres have contributed some photos of their field trip to the Bartola River, Nicaragua in the 'In the Field' section, along with a full list of lep species they collected there. Chris Garcia has contributed his photo of a framed Morpho rhentenor in the 'Collections' section. Thanks all! - Clark ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From josylvestre at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 28 08:03:18 2001 From: josylvestre at sympatico.ca (J o n a t h a n S y l v e s t r e) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:03:18 -0400 Subject: Handfield's "Le guide des papillons du Qúebec" , Vol. II. Micromoths. References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010927163801.00a7a2e0@heartland.ab.ca> Message-ID: Hi, Maybe it will be next years If you want I can give you the e-mail of Louis Handfield I Know im personaly Jonathan Sylvestre http://storm.prohosting.com/lepido/ "Charles Bird" a ?crit dans le message news: 5.0.0.25.2.20010927163801.00a7a2e0 at heartland.ab.ca... > Does anyone know when Vol. II of Handfield's "Le guide des papillons du > Q?ebec" will be out? I have found his Vol. I, Macromoths, to be very useful > and I can hardly wait for Vol. II. > > Charles Bird, Box 22, Erskine, Alberta, Canada, T0C 1G0 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From CTaylor at worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 28 09:51:37 2001 From: CTaylor at worldnet.att.net ( Clay Taylor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:51:37 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field - NOT References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010927180449.027a7d00@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <002101c14824$b27f6340$10e3fea9@s0022921733> Hi all - I am only jumping in here to dispel the depth of field myth - the digital discussion is VERY fascinating. Depth of field is a mathematical constant for any lens system. If you take two lenses of different focal lengths (let's say a 50mm lens and a 500mm lens), set them at the same f/stop (let's say at f/8), and adjust the subject size so that it (the butterfly) is EXACTLY the same size on the film plane (let's say that it fills the frame from wingtip to wingtip), the depth of field will be EXACTLY the same for both images. Obviously, you will be 10 times farther away from the butterfly with the 500mm lens than you will be with the 50mm lens, and your background will be foreshortened, but the range of sharpness in front of and behind the center of focus (another way to describe depth of field) will be identical. If this sounds weird, it did to me, too, some 30 years ago. I took some matchsticks stuck in play-dough bases, positioned them on a tabletop, and setup two cameras on tripods (literally the 50mm and 500mm lenses) and monkeyed around with central focus points, and matchsticks both nearer and farther from the focus point. The depths of field were identical. My own messing around with digital cameras has been limited to field work, but those of you shooting controlled setups should use a Kodak 18% Gray Card either as a full background or positioned somewhere in the frame. If the color balance varies between photo sessions (shooting with natural light at two different times of the day will do it) at a later time, you should be able to use your photoshop system to change the gray card tones to the correct 18% gray, and the entire picture will now be correctly color balanced. Studio photographers use that system for matching colors between different film emulsions, and the digital world is no different. Clay Taylor Moodus, CT ctaylor at att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Emmitt" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Digital Camera Dilema > Folks, > > Here`s my take on digital cameras ( I own a Canon EOS1N 35mm film camera BTW). > > I`ve been looking at getting a digital because of the depth of field > (DOF)being nearly 4 times greater than a 35 mm camera. The reason for the > increased DOF is the small CCDs usually they are 1 1/8 inch CCDs. > > Granted these 3.3 megapixel cameras like the Nikon Coolpix 990 or 995 and > Canon G1 can not come even close to the resolution of a 35 mm film camera. > At best I think you can get a 8 mb file from these digitals and a 35 > mm slide you can get 25 mb files with a 2700 dpi film scanner and nearly > 100 mb files with a 4000 dpi film scanner. In other words printed at 300 > dpi (production quality work) the 8 mb digital file might if lucky print to > 8 x 10 @330 dpi (not 72 dpi) where as a 100 mb file should print nicely to > 20 x 24 @300 dpi which is actually 4 times larger. > > If I was to buy a digital right now in the $1000 price range it would > either be the > Canon G2 3.92 megapixels priced at $900 > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?cameras=canon_g2&method=sid ebyside > or the > Nikon Coolpix 5000 4.92 megapixel priced at $1100 > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?cameras=nikon_cp5000&method =sidebyside > > The Nikon looks real nice but the Canon is sweet too and I have various > flashes already it could use too. I`m stalled on buying one because Canon > is just releasing a new SLR type digital the EOS D! 4.1 megapixel for $7000 > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?cameras=canon_g2&method=sid ebyside > and the awesome EOS D30 (SLR type)might drop from the $2800 a good bit when > pros trade up for the EOS D! to hopefully under $1300 then I would snatch > one up as my EOS lens could also be able to be used and at 1.6x there > normal size, in other words my 100 mm macro lens would become a 160mm macro > lens. > > > Randy Emmitt > Rougemont, NC > > Randy Emmitt Photography > http://www.rlephoto.com > Carolina Butterfly Society webmaster > http://www.carolinabutterflysociety.org/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From rworth at oda.state.or.us Fri Sep 28 11:27:20 2001 From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:27:20 -0700 Subject: help with specimens Message-ID: Hi all, I was hoping someone out there might be able to help me out. I would like to get some samples of the Leek moth, Acrolepiopsis assectella Zeller, a significant pest of onions, from eastern Canada. It's an introduced pest but has been there for a few years it seems. See a bit more about this moth at: http://www.pestalert.org/Detail.CFM?recordID=25 They site Hanfield, 1997 as a source, but I don't have a copy yet. This moth is one we want to keep our eyes open for here in Oregon. Would anyone out there be able and willing to help me get some reference material for our collection here? TIA for any help. You can reply to me off the list. Cheers, Rich Richard A. Worth Oregon Department of Agriculture Plant Division rworth at oda.state.or.us (503) 986-6461 ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From monarch at saber.net Fri Sep 28 11:48:05 2001 From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:48:05 -0500 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field - NOT References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010927180449.027a7d00@pop3.concentric.net> <002101c14824$b27f6340$10e3fea9@s0022921733> Message-ID: <3BB49BB5.6096@saber.net> Clay Taylor wrote: > I am only jumping in here to dispel the depth of field myth - the > digital discussion is VERY fascinating. I've found the depth of field I can get with a digital camera (Olympus C-3000 $499.00) is far greater than with a 35mm camera. Here is an example: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/whitespeciosa.jpg Paul Cherubini ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From hankb at theriver.com Fri Sep 28 12:01:25 2001 From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:01:25 -0700 Subject: butterflies of az References: <000a01c1482e$463bbc60$3501a8c0@teneyckla.com> Message-ID: <3BB49ED5.6E47BC26@theriver.com> > Joanne Kasko wrote: > > I'd like to confirm - I sent a pre-order check in April for this > book. Originally it was due out in August. Can you let me know appr. > when it will be shipped and confirm I am on the list? > > Thanks! > > joanne kasko Joanne - Thanks for asking and sorry for the delay. the copies of "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" have been printed. We got a a copy by air from Hong Kong last week and the book is beautiful. The books are now on the freighter which is scheduled to dock in Oakland, California on October 3. The books then have to be unloaded, clear customs, and will trucked to Bob Stewart's house in Arcata, California around the the 10th of October. For those of you who ordered the book in advance - the shipping boxes have already been assembled and labeled so they all should be in the mail (UPS or however Bob is shipping them) soon after. Thanks for you patience. We are sure you will be pleased. -- Hank & Priscilla Brodkin Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due October 2001 http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From nschiff at asrr.arsusda.gov Fri Sep 28 12:31:28 2001 From: nschiff at asrr.arsusda.gov (Nathan Schiff) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Best Butterfly Gardening Book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear List, I am helping a grade school teacher plant a butterfly garden with pond (She obtained a couple of grants so this will happen). She knows very little about butterflies so I would like to get her a book of her own. What is the best butterfly garden book and why. Actually any other tips would be appreciated too. My plan is to have both host plants and nectar sources. The garden will be in a school in the Mississippi delta so we will only be looking for southern species. I don't have all the butterfly gardening books myself so I need your help. Thanks in advance. You may answer off list if you feel most people know the answers. Nathan P.S. anybody have some spare Aristolochia seeds, we do have Battus here. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From hankb at theriver.com Fri Sep 28 12:43:21 2001 From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:43:21 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field - NOT] Message-ID: <3BB4A8A9.5A3947BA@theriver.com> Hank & Priscilla Brodkin wrote: > > One thing I "discovered". If I set my digital camera (I have a Nikon > Coolpix 880 - which I like because I can wear it on my belt) on the "Hi" > or even "Fine" setting I can stand back a ways from the butterfly and > shoot with lens in normal mode (not telephoto) and by cropping can make > quite acceptable photos. Check the photo of the Dotted Roadside-Skipper > at: > http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/news.html > > Please keep in mind that I saved this as a low quality jpg so it would > download faster on teh web page. > -- > Hank & Priscilla Brodkin > Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ > Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com > SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association > http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html > "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" > by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due October 2001 > http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html - ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From dsc1 at cisunix.unh.edu Fri Sep 28 13:18:05 2001 From: dsc1 at cisunix.unh.edu (Donald S. Chandler) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:18:05 -0400 Subject: Callophrys (Incisalia) records in New Hampshire/Maine Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010928131805.007d02e0@cisunix.unh.edu> I have been trying to find the original publications that document the presence of the western pine elfin in northern New England (Coos Co. New Hampshire, and Oxford Co. Maine), wihout much luck (beyond splotches of color in field guides). The White Mountain National Forest wants to know if this species has been found in areas under their jurisdiction. If you could communicate to me the appropriate literature citation, or where to find it (it doesn't seem to be in Zoo Record), I would appreciate it. Don Chandler University of New Hampshire ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 28 13:47:41 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:47:41 -0400 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field - NOT References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010927180449.027a7d00@pop3.concentric.net> <002101c14824$b27f6340$10e3fea9@s0022921733> Message-ID: <004c01c14845$ac7cfc20$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: " Clay Taylor" To: ; Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field - NOT > Hi all - > > I am only jumping in here to dispel the depth of field myth - the > digital discussion is VERY fascinating. > snips > > My own messing around with digital cameras has been limited to field > work, but those of you shooting controlled setups should use a Kodak 18% > Gray Card either as a full background or positioned somewhere in the frame. > If the color balance varies between photo sessions (shooting with natural > light at two different times of the day will do it) at a later time, you > should be able to use your photoshop system to change the gray card tones to > the correct 18% gray, and the entire picture will now be correctly color > balanced. Studio photographers use that system for matching colors between > different film emulsions, and the digital world is no different. > > Clay Taylor > Moodus, CT > ctaylor at att.net Clay has injected another very important element of digital photography - computer editing. Then when you get and become familiar with an editing program ( I use Paint Shop Pro) you need to fight with paper and printers. All of these things need to work together. Camera, editing software, printer, paper -- a weak link along the way can and will alter the best equipment around it. For those who will not be printing their work the first two the main concern -- plus the very simple step of going into your computers "setting" and setting the color at 24 bit (or higher) color resolution. The bottom line is that there are MANY different way to get basically the same results. What will work for one may not work for another. As I said before, I don't know nuttin bout no photo- graphy. I do know a little about computer editing of pictures as I do all that for our publication. In all this I see that a person's ability to get good results is not based nearly so much on the kind of equipment one has - but how well one knows how to use it. The gray card reminds me of this. A while back Joe and I were taking some pictures in the back yard. For some reason the camera wanted to focus on the black writing on the white specimen label. To sure this I picked up my grandsons yellow sand shovel and put the edge of it in the cameras field of view on the same plain as the specimen. This worked to fix the focus. However, when I went to crop the picture (which eliminated the shovel edge from the picture) I noted that the entire left half of the picture had a yellow hue to it. The sun light reflecting off the shovel had bounced down to the white pinning surface and flooded the left half the picture with yellow color. I could not adjust this with the computer for if I got the left half "right" then the unaffected right side lost the yellow it needed. So we re-shot. Now, this translates to outdoor shots of specimens on yellow, red and blue flowers -- the reflected light from the flower can alter the natural hues of the specimen. This is another reason I like to shots in indirect sun light - slightly in shadows - at a different exposure rate. etc. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Fri Sep 28 15:08:56 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:08:56 -0400 Subject: Callophrys (Incisalia) records in New Hampshire/Maine References: <3.0.6.32.20010928131805.007d02e0@cisunix.unh.edu> Message-ID: <005f01c14851$0653f180$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald S. Chandler" To: Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: Callophrys (Incisalia) records in New Hampshire/Maine > I have been trying to find the original publications that document the > presence of the western pine elfin in northern New England (Coos Co. New > Hampshire, and Oxford Co. Maine), wihout much luck (beyond splotches of > color in field guides). The White Mountain National Forest wants to know > if this species has been found in areas under their jurisdiction. If you > could communicate to me the appropriate literature citation, or where to > find it (it doesn't seem to be in Zoo Record), I would appreciate it. > > Don Chandler > University of New Hampshire > Interesting. I went to check the lit on hand and here is what I found. First, I checked the 1974 publication by A.E. Brower "A List of the Lepidoptera of Maine - part 1 the Macrolepidoptera" published by U. of Maine at Orno - I found no mention of eryphon in Maine. I then went back to the 1960 "Lepidoptera of New York and Neighboring States" by W.T.M. Forbes and it is not there either. (This is an excellent publication by the way with lots of interesting info - so if anyone ever has a chance to get a copy of it do so.) Well, let's just check the 1951 Peterson Field Guide by Klots -- nothing there either. (Don, has likely checked all these already.) In Butterflies of North American (1975) by Howe eryphon is listed as eastward to N. Michigan. In Butterflies of North America (1986) by Scott the range map just gets into VT, NH, and extreme western ME. Scott notes: "The eastern N.A. records [of eryphon] are recent, possibly of introduction from transplanted trees or Christmas trees. " In the Butterflies of Canada (1998) by Layberry, Hall, and Lafontaine eryphon is cited as mainly western but "stretches sporadically east across Canada as far as northern New Brunswick." They note however a very interesting record of a 1912 specimen from southern Ontario (Port Hope) based on a specimen so labeled in the Canadian National Collection. The best place to check for historical records of this species in the northeastern US is in the season summaries of the Lepidopterists' Society News. This is issued every spring and goes back decades. It is the primary source and documentation of Lepidoptera of North America. It's reliability is great as the vast majority of species records are based on actual vouchered and professionally confirmed material. This source is 100% the source of the earliest records of eryphon in NH and ME. Lastly, I sure hope the White Mountain National Forest people are not looking to give some special status to a butterfly that is a transient and not an endemic part of the eastern fauna. A species that is sprayed as a pest in the west should not become a taxon one could be jailed for collecting in the east! Nor should any tax dollars be spent on it in the east - except for a survey to see if it might become a pest on some of the eastern Pines. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jjk65 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 28 15:43:33 2001 From: jjk65 at hotmail.com (JJK) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:43:33 GMT Subject: Wanted: Neophasia terlooti & Colias Message-ID: I am in need of Neophasia terlootii pairs, Colias nastes nastes, Colias nastes moina, Colias nastes aliaska, Colias nastes streckeri, Colias scudderii, Colias gigantea gigantea, Colias gigantea harroweri, Colias pelidne pelidne and Colias pelidne skinneri, western Agathymus and Megathymus. Will buy or exchange for Speyeria cybele charlotti females, Speyeria idalia males, Megathymus coloradensis, Agathymus mariae, Atlides halesus, Papilio palamedes, etc. Contact: jjk65 at hotmail.com Thank you! ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Fri Sep 28 16:45:01 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:45:01 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field Message-ID: Here is the situation with regard to depth of field, quoted from the _Handbook of Photography_ (Henney & Dudley, 1939): ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Depth of Focus, Including Enlargement of the Print. It can easily be shwon that if we photograph the same object with two lenses of different focal lengths and diamters, if we subsequently enlarge the smaller picture to make it the same size as the larger picture, and if we insist on equally sharp definition in the two final equal-sized pictures, then the depths of focus of the two cameras will be proportional solely to the _diameters_ of the two lenses. Thus an f/2 lens of 2-in. focus and an f/4 lens of 4-in. focus both have a diameter of 1 in. The 2-in.lens forms a picture half as large as the 4-in. lens, but after enlargement to make them equal in size, the depth of focus of each will turn out to be the same. This property constitutes the real advantage of the miniature camera, in that it permits the use of a fast lens without the loss of depth of focus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is thus true that digital cameras where the CCD is smaller than a 35mm film do indeed have a (theoretical) advantage in depth of field--provided that the resolution of the CCD is high enough to make use of the advan- tage. Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From jeff at primus.ca Fri Sep 28 18:07:52 2001 From: jeff at primus.ca (Jeff Crolla/Martha Hancock) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:07:52 -0400 Subject: Callophrys (Incisalia) records in New Hampshire/Maine References: <3.0.6.32.20010928131805.007d02e0@cisunix.unh.edu> Message-ID: <002901c1486a$05e96680$6f9efed8@default> Opler & Krizek (1984) in Butterflies East of the Great Plains have a short account for eryphon with the following: "It has been found locally in Maine, Minnesota and Michigan. In Maine the butterflies were found in a black spruce-sphagnum bog perching on young spruce trees...in the East, the single brood of adults flies from May 18 to June 9." The range map shows a small isolated area in Maine abutting the border with New Hampshire close to its north end pretty much the same as the small black bit extending into maine on Scott's Butt of NA map. In Butterflies of the Ottawa District (Layberry, Hall & Lafontaine1982) they mention that in Algonquin Park in eastern Ontario eryphon was found in sandy boreal forest areas around Pines. Butterflies of Canda and Handfield (Papillons du Quebec) both state that it occurs in bogs from adjacent pine (strobus and banksiana) stands. I think Ross Layberry published an account of the discovery of the species in Algonquin park in the Canadian Field Naturalist. I don't have the citation to hand but can dig it up if you want, maybe there are references to New England records.....AND also just found this in Handfield's list of citations under eryphon (probably what you are looking for): Warren J. Kiel, 1976, Callophrys eryphon (Lycaenidae) in Maine, Journal of the Lep Soc 30 (1): 16-18. Maybe Ron Gatrelle or someone has this issue on hand and can provide the details. Hope this helps Jeff Crolla ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald S. Chandler" To: Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 01:18 PM Subject: Callophrys (Incisalia) records in New Hampshire/Maine > I have been trying to find the original publications that document the > presence of the western pine elfin in northern New England (Coos Co. New > Hampshire, and Oxford Co. Maine), wihout much luck (beyond splotches of > color in field guides). The White Mountain National Forest wants to know > if this species has been found in areas under their jurisdiction. If you > could communicate to me the appropriate literature citation, or where to > find it (it doesn't seem to be in Zoo Record), I would appreciate it. > > Don Chandler > University of New Hampshire > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: > > http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From burnbank at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 28 18:57:28 2001 From: burnbank at sympatico.ca (Burnbank) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:57:28 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Handfield's__=22Le_guide_des_papillons_du_Q=FAebec?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22_=2C_Vol._II._Micromoths.?= References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010927163801.00a7a2e0@heartland.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00ac01c14870$f2e1b5e0$968be540@DON> Volume II of Handfields book is in the planning stage and will be a number of years before a probable year can be guessed at. There are many problems with micromoth classification and many of the identifications require confirmation. The hard copy of volume I is now out of print and plans are under way to reprint it and revise it as much as can be done. Don L. ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From monarch at saber.net Fri Sep 28 17:25:57 2001 From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:25:57 -0500 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field - NOT References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010927180449.027a7d00@pop3.concentric.net> <002101c14824$b27f6340$10e3fea9@s0022921733> Message-ID: <3BB4EAE5.6EBE@saber.net> With a $500 digital camera you can take a picture of a butterfly just 8 inches away and the background will still be in reasonably good focus. http://www.saber.net/~monarch/hwy2.jpg Paul Cherubini ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From ewilliam at hamilton.edu Fri Sep 28 20:49:20 2001 From: ewilliam at hamilton.edu (Ernest Williams) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:49:20 -0400 Subject: Citheronia regalis Message-ID: Lep folks, I received this request (with photos attached, which I'm not forwarding to the full leps list) from someone not in lep circles. Could someone please help her out? To her email, not the whole list - unless you have something general to add. Thanks. Ernest Williams At 1:27 PM -0400 9/28/01, Margaret_Carfioli at nps.gov wrote: >From: Margaret_Carfioli at nps.gov >Subject: Citheronia regalis >To: ewilliam at hamilton.edu >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:27:30 -0400 > >Dear Dr. Williams, > >I am the biologist at Valley Forge National Historical Park, Valley Forge, >PA. I am writing to report that a single Hickory Horned Devil (Citheronia >regalis) found on a trail in the park on 19 September 2001. It was >collected has progressed quite nicely. It began pupating on 25 Sept. I >have attached some photos. > >I would like to report this find as at Valley Forge National Historical >Park, PA. It was found just west of Valley Creek, which is the common >boundary of Chester and Montgomery Counties. So, technically it was found >in Chester County, PA. > >We currently have it housed in a terrarium in our Nature Center as an >environmental educational display for complete metamorphosis. I have >downloaded The Lepidopterists' Society Statement on Collecting Lepidoptera >and basic care instructions, but I would appreciate it if you could please >refer me to additional rearing information or a specialist contact. > >Please let me know if any additional information is needed. > >Thank you. >Meghan >---------------------------------------------------------- >Margaret A. Carfioli >Biologist >Natural Resource Management >Valley Forge National Historical Park >P.O. Box 953 >Valley Forge, PA 19482-0953 >Tel 610-783-1041 >Fax 610-783-1088 >E-mail Margaret_Carfioli at nps.gov >--- ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From mjs323 at aol.com Sat Sep 29 00:33:13 2001 From: mjs323 at aol.com (MJS323) Date: 29 Sep 2001 04:33:13 GMT Subject: Aricia icarioides and J.C. Downey References: <60F1FEB31CA3D211A1B60008C7A45F430EDAB526@blaze.bcsc.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: <20010929003313.09395.00001261@mb-ca.aol.com> Norbert; A couple of other references quoted in Emmel, etc. 1998 might be of worth to you. 1) Downey, Journal of the Lep Society 15(1): 34-42, 1961; and 2) Hovanitz, 1937, Pan-Pacific Entomologist 13(4), 184-189. Hope these will provide some info to help your research. Mike Smith ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sat Sep 29 05:27:05 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 05:27:05 -0400 Subject: Specimen request Message-ID: <000701c148c8$ee0a5c40$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> I am interested in borrowing specimens of Neonympha from Arkansas and Oklahoma. I would also like to see any photographs of specimens from these states. I am wanting to determine the ranges of N. areolata and N. helicta is that area. Ron Gatrelle http://tils-ttr.org ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From lynnscott at heiconsulting.com Sat Sep 29 18:57:44 2001 From: lynnscott at heiconsulting.com (Lynn Scott) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:57:44 GMT Subject: New moth images Message-ID: [This followup was posted to sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera and a copy was sent to the cited author.] Images of the following additional species have now been posted on my website at http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html Pyralidae: 4747 Nymphula ekthlipsis (Elophila ekthlipsis), 4748 Munroessa icciusalis, 4760 Paraponyx obscuralis, 4761 Paraponyx badiusalis, 4764a Paraponyx allionealis itealis, 4897 Evergestis pallidata, 4953a Phlyctaenia coronata tertialis, 4958a Anania funebris glomeralis, 5040 Pyrausta bicoloralis, 5143 Diacme adipaloides, 5159 Desmia funeralis, 5226 Palpita magniferalis, 5464 Urola nivalis, 5466 Vaxi critica, 6053 Peoria approximella Geometridae: 6272 Eumacaria latiferrugata, 6273 Itame pustularia, 6274 Itame ribearia, 6292 Itame exauspicata, 6299a Itame coortaria enigmata, 6303 Itame subcessaria, 7058a Synchlora aerata albolineata, 7071 Chlorochlamys chloroleucaria, 7084 Hethemia pistasciaria, 7139 Cyclophora pendulinaria, 7146 Haematopis grataria, 7157 Scopula cacuminaria, 7159 Scopula limboundata, 7189. Chloroclysta hersiliata (Dysstroma hersiliata), 7201 Eulithis testata, 7206 Eulithis explanata, 7213a Ecliptopera silaceata albolineata Changes have been made to the images posted for 2693 Prionoxystus robiniae, Pyrausta acrionalis and 7126 Idaea dimidiata, a group of "mystery moth" photos has been posted, and minor additions have been made to the text on some of the other pages. The site now illustrates about 180 species of approximately 375 identified to date from my location in Ottawa (Dunrobin), Ontario, Canada. -- = = = = = Lynn Scott LynnScott at heiconsulting.com Visit http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org Sun Sep 30 05:22:08 2001 From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 05:22:08 -0400 Subject: TILS news issue Message-ID: <000701c14991$61378a80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> Good day. For those who may not known, the September issue of TILS News has been available on line for about a week at http://www.tils-ttr.org , just click on "News". Our newsletters are posted in their entirety. One of the items in this issue is a brief text and 18 picture key to identifying Throybes confusis and T. bathyllus. This mini article should bring total clarity to the seasonal identification of these two species in the eastern US as it is the most definitive published analysis on these two anywhere. Not only will the information and pictures facilitate certain field identification, it will also allow museum curators to sort "odd" specimens of these two properly to species without dissection. Ron Gatrelle ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From wg at elmgrove2.freeserve.co.uk Sun Sep 30 10:37:35 2001 From: wg at elmgrove2.freeserve.co.uk (Bill Grange) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:37:35 +0100 Subject: Exotic butterfly in Derby - what is it? Message-ID: <9p7aak$hdc$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> An enquirer has reported to me what is obviously a sighting of an escaped exotic butterfly in Derby, England, this month. He did a basic colour sketch, but I have been unable to find a species which even resembles it. Can anyone help with a possible identification? Picture and more information is at webpage: http://www.elmgrove2.freeserve.co.uk/index-page6.html Bill Grange ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From aa6g at aa6g.org Sun Sep 30 11:12:31 2001 From: aa6g at aa6g.org (Chuck Vaughn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:12:31 -0700 Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very rarely does a subject come up on this list about which I know something. This one I do, so here goes. Depth of Field and Depth of Focus, although both f/ ratio dependent, are not the same thing. Depth of focus is the range of focus over which the image will have its maximum sharpness. At f/2 that is about +/- .001" ranging up to +/- .005" at f/10. The smaller the depth of focus the flatter the film has to held which is a problem with increasingly large formats. Depth of field is the distance over which the subject is in focus. Depth of field does not change with focus. It either will be equally good or equally bad over the same distance. The paragraph below confusing. I ran this by a professional photographer and fellow astrophotographer to get his take on it. Even though they say "Depth of Focus", they really mean Depth of Field, which is the modern terminology. Despite the comment about "equally sharp definition", the 2" lens that produces an image 1/2 the size of the 4" lens cannot possibly be as sharp when enlarged to match the size of the latter. In addition, since this was written in 1939, they are talking about photographic prints and the greater enlargement will be grainier than the lesser enlargement. What is true is that the depth of field of the 2" f/2 lens will be the same when the image is enlarged to match the 4" f/4 image. Personally, I view maintaing the depth of field as not much of an advantage when compared to loss of resolution to the longer focal length lens. There's something else everyone should know about digital cameras. Most of them use a single shot RGB CCD which means that there is not red, green and blue data for each pixel. Instead they use a Bayer pattern of red, green and blue filters over the pixels and interpolate the missing colors at each pixel location. This means 2/3 of the data is interpolated. Although the image looks good, there is some loss of resolution with this method. Very high end digital cameras use a prism to split the light in 3 directions and onto 3 three CCDs so there is true RGB data for the entire image. Chuck Vaughn ----------------------------------- > > Here is the situation with regard to depth of field, quoted from > the _Handbook of Photography_ (Henney & Dudley, 1939): > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Depth of Focus, Including Enlargement of the Print. > > It can easily be shwon that if we photograph the same object with two lenses > of different focal lengths and diamters, if we subsequently enlarge the > smaller picture to make it the same size as the larger picture, and if we > insist on equally sharp definition in the two final equal-sized pictures, > then the depths of focus of the two cameras will be proportional solely to > the _diameters_ of the two lenses. Thus an f/2 lens of 2-in. focus and an > f/4 lens of 4-in. focus both have a diameter of 1 in. The 2-in.lens forms > a picture half as large as the 4-in. lens, but after enlargement to make > them equal in size, the depth of focus of each will turn out to be the same. > This property constitutes the real advantage of the miniature camera, in > that it permits the use of a fast lens without the loss of depth of focus. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It is thus true that digital cameras where the CCD is smaller than a 35mm > film do indeed have a (theoretical) advantage in depth of field--provided > that the resolution of the CCD is high enough to make use of the advan- > tage. > > Ken Philip > fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From simon at butterfly-guide.co.uk Sun Sep 30 11:20:36 2001 From: simon at butterfly-guide.co.uk (Simon Coombes) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:20:36 +0100 Subject: Himalaya Message-ID: <000b01c149c3$76457b80$5781f8d4@net> Hi I am potentially going to Northern India for a month in summer 2002. The area I'm visiting is Himachal Pradesh, Spiti/Kinnaur region to avoid the Monsoon rains. Does anyone have any butterfly information on this part of the world? There is a book 'The butterflies of the Himalaya' by Mani 1986, I can't find much information on it. How comprehensive is it? Does it cover the area I've mentioned? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Simon Simon Coombes 1 Park Street, Plymouth, PL3 4BL, UK 01752 607854 http://www.butterfly-guide.co.uk ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Sun Sep 30 15:45:09 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:45:09 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Never trust a publisher's blurb Message-ID: A friend who has a copy of 'Butterflies of the World' by Sbordoni & Forestiero looked up the passage about 'polar fritillaries', and found that the book itself says, "...adults are observed only during odd years in some areas of Norway and Alaska..." So the implied extension of that behavior to all of Alaska and Norway was made by the blurb writer, not by the authors. Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From xiwang at sprint.ca Sun Sep 30 15:04:09 2001 From: xiwang at sprint.ca (Xi Wang) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:04:09 -0400 Subject: Exotic butterfly in Derby - what is it? References: <9p7aak$hdc$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BB76CA9.EF2@sprint.ca> I'm not completely sure about this, but what the enquirer saw may have been Cethosia cydippe (the London Butterfly House currently houses this species). The patches of orange are bigger than those in the picture, but this is the closest thing I knew. I don't suppose he saw the underside of specimen? There's a nice photo here http://www.ozbutterflies.com/redlacewing.html Peace, Xi Wang Bill Grange wrote: > > An enquirer has reported to me what is obviously a sighting of an escaped > exotic butterfly in Derby, England, this month. He did a basic colour > sketch, but I have been unable to find a species which even resembles it. > > Can anyone help with a possible identification? Picture and more information > is at webpage: > > http://www.elmgrove2.freeserve.co.uk/index-page6.html > > Bill Grange ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu Sun Sep 30 17:35:11 2001 From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:35:11 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: Digital Camera Dilema - Depth of field Message-ID: Chuck Vaughn said: "What is true is that the depth of field of the 2" f/2 lens will be the same when the image is enlarged to match the 4" f/4 image." That is the point I was trying to make with the quote from the 1939 book. It follows that a 2" f/4 lens will have greater depth of field than the 4" f/4 lens, when the final image is presented at the same size--and therefore those digital cameras that use CCDs much smaller than one frame of a 35mm film will indeed (whatever other problems, like low resolution, they may have) have increased depth of field compared to a 35mm camera when the same f/stop is used. This can be a _disadvantage_ when you want to make a confusing background way out of focus... Ken Philip fnkwp at uaf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl From MatSmith1 at compuserve.com Sun Sep 30 19:03:16 2001 From: MatSmith1 at compuserve.com (Matthew Smith) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:03:16 -0400 Subject: Himalaya Message-ID: <200109301903_MC3-E199-1902@compuserve.com> Message text written by "Simon Coombes" > Hi I am potentially going to Northern India for a month in summer 2002. The area I'm visiting is Himachal Pradesh, Spiti/Kinnaur region to avoid the Monsoon rains. Does anyone have any butterfly information on this part of the world? There is a book 'The butterflies of the Himalaya' by Mani 1986, I can't find much information on it. How comprehensive is it? Does it cover the area I've mentioned? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Simon < I'm not sure about the book you mention. I do know there is a book that covers butterflies of Nepal which might be of use (same part of the world etc). I think the full title is 'Field Guide to Nepal's Butterflies' by C.Smith. I don't have a copy myself, I would try Ian Johnson at Ian Johnson Natural History Books (formerly Pemberly Books), I know he has had this in stock in the past. Ian can be reached at ij at pembooks.demon.co.uk Regards Matt ------------------------------------------------------------ For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit: http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl

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