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No Chuck I am not inventing a straw man. It was a real question about what you believe. The argument you were making about certain Monarch scientists who you happen to disagree with and dislike certainly suggests to me that you would also hold the view that making a big point about the loss of biodiversity and native ecosystems worldwide is also alarmist and a con job. If you don't believe that, I am happy to hear it.<BR> <BR>Roger Kuhlman<br> <BR><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: aa6g@aa6g.org<br>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:22:34 -0800<br>To: leps-l@mailman.yale.edu<br>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<br><br>You guys need to learn how to present a logical argument. Roger invents a straw man by misrepresenting my position (with shades of ad hominem attacks) and Jim raises a red herring by introducing Passenger Pigeons. I thought this discussion was about the Monarch migration? Stick to the subject.<div><br></div><div>My point from the many posts Paul has made over the nearly 20 years that I've been on this list is that Dr. Chip Taylor has been alarmist (my word) about the fragility of the Monarch migration. Is there any scientific evidence to back up this claimed fragility? Are there any published papers we can read (not pay walled) about the subject? </div><div><br></div><div>Since when is it appropriate to use an animal model on insects? The Passenger Pigeon was massively hunted for decades, finally to extinction, with habit loss being a contributing factor. How is this in any way applicable to Monarchs or the Monarch migration at this point in time? One can speculate about possible extinction scenarios but that is not science. Let's keep the subjects separate.<br><div><br></div><div>Chuck<br><div><br></div><div><br><div><br class="ecxApple-interchange-newline"><blockquote><span style="font:/normal Helvetica; text-transform: none; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;" class="ecxhmmessage"><div dir="ltr">Oh sorry Jim and the Leps audience I did not see Jim's argument about the Passenger Pigeon before making my post about the same thing. Jim has made some very important points to consider.<br> <br>Roger Kuhlman<br> <br><div><div id="ecxSkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="ecxstopSpelling">To:<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rkuhlman@hotmail.com">rkuhlman@hotmail.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<br>From:<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">papaipema@aol.com</a><br>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 08:37:52 -0500<br><br><font color="black" size="2" face="arial"> In the 1880's they said the same thing about Passenger Pigeons. It has been estimated that they (only 50 years earlier) were in numbers so large that there were as many of them as there were all other birds combined. I will wager green money if we were not here, they still would be. Anyone that believes we cannot possibly cause they extinction of any butterfly is probably never going to be swayed otherwise, I would rather err on the side of caution. And, speaking from one of the most farmed states in the U.S., I can tell you there is quite a drop in weeds of all kinds, nothing but rank grasses grow in our ditches now......nothing. If it were not for a few shielded natural areas and the efforts of some diligent individuals to save something, they would have no where or reason to be here. We need the other forms of life on this planet to survive, nothing needs us. We should really evaluate our perception of self worth as a species.<div> </div><div>Jim Wiker</div><div>Greenview, Illinois</div><br><br><br><div style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Roger Kuhlman <<a href="mailto:rkuhlman@hotmail.com">rkuhlman@hotmail.com</a>><br>To: Leps List <<a href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>>; Leps List <<a href="mailto:leps-l@lists.yale.edu">leps-l@lists.yale.edu</a>><br>Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:17 am<br>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<br><br><div id="ecxAOLMsgPart_2_7ded1dd2-dd22-4e0a-b7d7-816fcd2a3237"><div dir="ltr">Clearly the extinction of both the eastern and western Monarch migrations are possible, so concern about migrating Monarch populations is reasonable and something that needs to be tracked closely.<br> <br>Roger Kuhlman<br>Ann Arbor, Michigan<br> <br><div><div id="ecxSkyDrivePlaceholder"></div></div></div></div></div></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________
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