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<DIV>
<DIV>My apologies to John Shuey, he was talking about restorations. Their
management can be much different than on native prairies. Our losses in Iowa and
Minnesota are on managed often isolated native prairies. Their is little
hope of them coming back like the successes in his restorations.</DIV>
<DIV>Dennis Schlicht</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:jshuey@TNC.ORG
href="mailto:jshuey@TNC.ORG">John Shuey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:papaipema@aol.com
href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">Jim Wiker</A> ; <A
title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A>
; <A title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">First
of all shuey never said the following - </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm
afraid Jim and I agree that the elephant in the closet is prescribed fire
prairie management. These isolated preserves are partially and sometimes
totally burned and burned often. If we were to bring it up on the list
serve it will start another set of attacks. last year Shuey even wrote in the
Lep News that after they (he and the TNC) burned the hell out of their Indiana
prairies they now need to work on getting the species back. We call that
prairie creationism, right Jim?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What
he said was that after planting over 6,000 acres of old crop land to over 600
species of vascular plants, and that we are now waiting for those species that
are hiding in the creases – mainly skippers, to move into the
restoration. Perhaps the problem with this entire set of stupid rants is
that many of the most vocal participants in these debates aren’t exactly the
sharpest tools in the shed. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">If
you want to just sit around and whine about stuff – that’s fine. But
quit bitching about people like Dr. Taylor who are actually willing to go out
and do something about the things they care about.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
title=file://and/ href="file:///\\And">And</A> FYI, things like Poanes
massasoit, Euphyes dion, Satyrodes eurydice, Euphyes bimacula, Problema byssus
and Speyeria idalia have found their way into the restoration from the creases
of those so called poorly managed preserves adjacent to the restoration.
Were in the “willing to actually do something about it world”, we call that
conservation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Shuey<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-AU> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
leps-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu [mailto:leps-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Jim Wiker<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 17, 2013 6:52
PM<BR><B>To:</B> dws1108@msn.com; leps-l@mailman.yale.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dennis
and Doug,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Both,
nicely said, well written and all valid. Dennis, I completely agree. All
things combined (it's like a pheasant flying past a dozen shotguns) sooner or
later, you're gonna get it. They have little chance. And Doug, to answer one
of you questions: these were established populations, especially Ottoe. I left
out Sassacus because it was a fringe species, but it appears gone too. Arogos
was an anomaly, but the rest were resident breeding populations that at times
were huge. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dennis
is right though, these things have as much to worry about from over management
as they do development. And, once they're gone (especially skippers) you just
can't put them back. Has anyone seen that work yet? They are not like a
chalkboard, you can't erase them and think that they can just be relocated. At
least in my experiences, when they are gone, they're
gone.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim
Wiker<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Dennis Schlicht <<A title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com
href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A>><BR>To: MexicoDoug <<A
title=mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com
href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">mexicodoug@aol.com</A>>; Jim Wiker <<A
title=mailto:papaipema@aol.com
href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">papaipema@aol.com</A>>; Andrew Williams
<<A title=mailto:studiesnature@gmail.com
href="mailto:studiesnature@gmail.com">studiesnature@gmail.com</A>><BR>Sent:
Sun, Feb 17, 2013 4:51 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_1_6220d2a6-daa2-4bc4-a127-1f36620c56bd>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks
for you candid sympathy. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm
afraid Jim and I agree that the elephant in the closet is prescribed fire
prairie management. These isolated preserves are partially and sometimes
totally burned and burned often. If we were to bring it up on the list
serve it will start another set of attacks. last year Shuey even wrote in the
Lep News that after they (he and the TNC) burned the hell out of their Indiana
prairies they now need to work on getting the species back. We call that
prairie creationism, right Jim?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So we
have isolated prairie obligate leps, surrounded by toxic corn, with huge
changes in climate (moisture changes) and therefor vegetation changes.
The TNC and the DNRs are the enemy of biodiversity
here.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dennis<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com
href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">MexicoDoug</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=mailto:papaipema@aol.com
href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">papaipema@aol.com</A> ; <A
title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com
href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A> ; <A
title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Sunday, February 17, 2013 3:50 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks
Jim, Thanks Dennis,<BR><BR>I'm saddened to hear this. I also think a
reasonable interpretation <BR>could attribute this to the farming practices,
and if everything is <BR>sitting in the middle of the corn varieties bred to
have herbicide <BR>tolerance ... it doesn't take a genius to have at least a
little <BR>confidence as to the causal relationship with the change in
farming <BR>technique.<BR><BR>I don't have the same sensitivity to this
issue as you. In my case it <BR>is simply an empty feeling that
accompanies the continued loss of <BR>biodiversity in some place far away
while I have my own set of <BR>ecological problems closer to the
heart. So it is with the due respect <BR>of not living with it in my
backyard that I ask your indulgence to <BR>think about my
comments.<BR><BR>First, the good; I want to congratulate you both on
dedicating your <BR>time to insects that in the public perception are
probably <BR>insignificant, drab little skippers which get about as much
respect as <BR>moths in musty closet. I personally find miniature
skippers <BR>marvelously exquisite and certainly more intellectually
challenging <BR>than Monarchs sans the migration phenomenon. You are
presenting first <BR>hand data which when combined with other species
statistics gives us a <BR>more concrete measuring stick of ecological health
by not picking some <BR>"pretty" generalized ecological indicator. Far
more useful for <BR>scientific analysis to describe the rate the ecosystem
is declining.<BR><BR>Next, the bad: As scientific, the hypothesis that it is
Bt corn (or <BR>whatever the hypothesis) needs to be tested rather than
conveniently <BR>assumed as I did in my first paragraph, I want to be sure
that I am <BR>properly interpreting the loss in its context. Are these
species at the <BR>fringe of their ranges and is there any other explanation
we should <BR>rule out? The edge of a USDA type zone which breathes
cyclically? And <BR>was this land the robust natural habitat for these
skippers before the <BR>farmers came on to the scene ... or was their
appearance likely <BR>prompted by prior farming techniques which altered the
ecosystem and <BR>gave them the cornfield-niche in the first place?
There are more <BR>considerations I'm sure you've both though about, and it
is a very <BR>healthy discussion to go through them as the due diligence of
<BR>presenting unbiased statements.<BR><BR>Finally, the ugly: I hope anyone
reading this knows that my question <BR>was not whether the test-tube bred
corn was detrimental to habitat. It <BR>was whether the Bt-Corn
pollen, is killing the larvae as the Cornell <BR>study said it would and was
used indiscriminately under what would be <BR>pseudoscientific pretences to
create anarchy in the agricultural <BR>industry and all of its dependents
12-15 years ago, and was still <BR>kicking and screaming 10 years ago.
If it didn't, I'm relieved but <BR>need to re-evaluate the reputation of
those who jumped on this <BR>bandwagon and see whether they fudged their
research techniques for the <BR>purpose distorting truth and advancing an
agenda. Please don't think <BR>I'm supporting the use of these
agricultural techniques. I need <BR>Bt-corn in my zone as much as I
want to live next to a garbage dump. <BR>But a balanced approach is
imperative where scientific credibility is <BR>not abused by those who prey
on the ignorance of the public perception <BR>because they feel they have a
superior moral calling. There is no room <BR>in science for
Popes. In Sagan's words - there are no "scientific <BR>authorities",
just a method and to that I would add a scholarly conduct <BR>which is as
old as science itself, when it branched off from philosophy <BR>and
religion.<BR><BR>Epilogue: In a country where less than 2% of the population
is <BR>interested in doing commercial farming and land is being gobbled up
at <BR>IMO truly alarming rates due to unfettered population growth which is
<BR>transparently demonstrable (I'm an alarmist! ;-) , it is not surprising
<BR>to me that ecological niches are decreasing. I fail to see how a
small <BR>group of elite and affluent find terrorizing technology a moral
calling <BR>rather than utilizing systematic approaches to optimizing what
we <BR>have...and going back to the basics of the 1960's ZPG population
growth <BR>models. The current national model of the USA is growth,
growth, <BR>growth - for everything from collecting taxes, to growing
business and <BR>government, increasing infrastructure, and just about
everything else. <BR>I would expect to lose niches along the way since
these political <BR>pressures for growth require that agriculture becomes
more efficient as <BR>the industry is asked to grow more food with less
acreage and manpower. <BR>The fact that the corn-belt is looking more like a
factory is one <BR>visible manifestation of this. If the glass is half
empty, I'd just <BR>say, let’s all move to the Sierra foothills of
California and Oregon, <BR>and then north to Alaska. But if it is half
full, just involve the <BR>community and share the beauty of nature in a
positive manner to <BR>support a culture of appreciation instead of finger
pointing which will <BR>only turn people off from scientists and the
scientific method in <BR>general. Provide unbiased statistics and have
people miss nature <BR>instead of run away from the scientific alarmists,
infidels and <BR>priests. Since this thread began a week ago, US
population has <BR>increased by 60,000. That is 1.2 million more acres
(1,800 square <BR>miles) of habitat disruption: 500,000 acres in the US and
700,000 acres <BR>outsourced. The total area mentioned is double the area of
Champaign <BR>County, Illinois. Crap. Now, to till my first
vegetable garden and <BR>identify which politicians are ZPG
friendly....<BR><BR>Best<BR>Doug<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
Jim Wiker <<A title=mailto:papaipema@aol.com
href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">papaipema@aol.com</A>><BR>To: dws1108
<<A title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com
href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A>>; leps-l <<A
title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A>><BR>Sent:
Sat, Feb 16, 2013 10:37 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<BR><BR>Doug,<BR>Same thing A. arogos, H. ottoe, H. metea and H.
leonardus here in <BR>Illinois. Most where common to abundant (where they
occurred) into the <BR>mid 1990's. At that point they began a rather rapid
decline and now <BR>haven't been seen for a number of years. Ottoe in
particular, well into <BR>the 90's could be found by the hundreds in several
sites, I saw the <BR>last one in Illinois with Bob Pyle in 2008. It, nor the
others have <BR>been seen since.<BR>Jim Wiker<BR>Greenview,
IL<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Dennis Schlicht &lt;<A
title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com
href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A>&gt;<BR>To: MexicoDoug
&lt;<A title=mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com
href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">mexicodoug@aol.com</A>&gt;<BR>Cc:
leps-l &lt;<A title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A>&gt;<BR>Sent:
Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:11 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<BR><BR>Doug,<BR>They were doing Ok through the 80's and most of
the 90's but then were <BR>wiped out by the late 2000's. Poweshiek numbers
went from around 100 on <BR>one site to none by 2010. These species were on
preserves, not farm <BR>land, but were surrounded by row crops. Gone or
nearly so are O. <BR>poweshiek, A. arogos, H. dacotae, H. ottoe and C.
inornata. A few <BR>others are not far behind.<BR>Dennis Schlicht<BR>Iowa
Lepidoptera Project<BR> ----- Original Message -----<BR> From:
MexicoDoug<BR> To: <A title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com
href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A><BR> Cc: <A
title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A><BR>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:54 AM<BR> Subject:
Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<BR><BR><BR>Dennis,<BR><BR>It would be helpful to know whether
these species' disappearances in<BR>your area were doing well
before the Bt corn, or already on the brink<BR>of loss due to
the farming practices. Also, whether this loss
you've<BR>documented is due to the larva of the respective
species ingesting<BR>amounts toxic to them and dying due to it as
was proposed by the<BR>Cornell group. If it wasn't, I'd argue
the unfortunate situation was,<BR>at best, not helped by a
raging controversy which IMO served to <BR>divert<BR>and divide
attention from these issues, and not present work
in<BR>alternate peer reviewed journals - which could be as simple
as <BR>computer<BR>models to maintain a greater degree of
biodiversity.<BR><BR>Could a more collaborative environment have
come up with real <BR>solutions<BR>and perhaps a coordinated
crop rotation scheme which maintained some<BR>useful wild area
interspersed intelligently (where students at local
<BR>ag<BR>colleges in a supportive roll could participate in the
design as part<BR>of their curriculum)? Perhaps not. But it's
not too late to find <BR>out<BR>- I hope.<BR><BR>I'm not trying
to be a Monday morning quarterback; and my post was
<BR>not<BR>in support of Bt-corn. I'm glad it's not in my backyard,
and how<BR>boring it must be to try to go Lepping in such an
area. It's seeing<BR>the tactics used by scientists we trust. My
favorite butterfly<BR>observing grounds was a unique mountain
foothill habitat on disturbed<BR>ground which had become
overgrown and basically wild and teaming with<BR>over 100
species of butterflies, and at any given time at least 1/3<BR>that amount.
Now, the many hectares, without exception, are parking<BR>lots and malls and
shopping areas in a series of new sprawled out<BR>commercial centers - and
at the boundaries are residential areas with<BR>manicured lawns and the
like. The development wiped out everything<BR>except the cockroaches and
people and occasional vagrant that ends up<BR>plastered to a radiator
grill.<BR><BR>I am sure we all are sensitive to the
overpopulation problem. Every<BR>year the US adds 3,000,000
people. In 1965 it was 194 million; <BR>today,<BR>over 315 million.
It is difficult for me to fathom how much
<BR>equivalent<BR>habit is destroyed for each person for their
activities (imagine<BR>3,000,000 dumped concentrated into your
state - that is approximately<BR>the average amount by state
since 1965, btw) , "infrastructure<BR>development", and of course
the food they require. For some reason <BR>no<BR>one is having
any success in controlling this and we are stuck with<BR>these
consequences everywhere. We could outsource farming,
by<BR>importing more food from Canada, etc., but then we'd only
be <BR>exporting<BR>the environmental drain with it to other
places...<BR><BR>Very sorry to hear what you
reported,<BR>Doug<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Dennis Schlicht &lt;<A
title=mailto:dws1108@msn.com
href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</A>&gt;<BR>To: leps-l
&lt;<A title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A>&gt;;
MexicoDoug <BR>&lt;<A title=mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com
href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">mexicodoug@aol.com</A>&gt;<BR>Sent:
Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:48 am<BR>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk]
Monarch Armageddon<BR><BR>Doug,<BR>The article below says Bt
corn was 19% of the crop then. It's 80-90%<BR>now. While all of
this Monarch concern has been going on, we have <BR>lost<BR>5
prairie obligate butterflies in the tall-grass prairie/ Bt
corn<BR>region (my data in Iowa). Our prairies are surrounded by
corn.<BR>Dennis Schlicht<BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: MexicoDoug<BR>To: <A title=mailto:monarch@saber.net
href="mailto:monarch@saber.net">monarch@saber.net</A> ; <A
title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A><BR>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:35 AM<BR>Subject: Re:
[Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<BR><BR><BR>"Doug, it was
Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent<BR>for using the word
"Armageddon" in this article and others like
<BR>it:"<BR><BR>Paul,<BR><BR>Huh ;-0 ??? I honestly didn't know
and wouldn't expect he was the<BR>source.<BR><BR>I wonder what
the majority of unbiased scientists think of someone
<BR>of<BR>Lincoln Brower's repute throwing out words such as
"Armageddon" to<BR>describe the evolving sciences in
agro-biotechnology. This is really<BR>an insult to science;
'Armageddon' has deeply religious connotations<BR>and is from
the New Testament Bible the destruction of the Devil an<BR>epic
battle when God comes down and unleashes his fury. What
place<BR>do<BR>such religious overtone-statements have in
science other than to<BR>polarize/bias, divert and offend
researchers and constructive<BR>discussion?<BR><BR>I just
Googled, and sadly it seems you are right. I found
this<BR>article<BR>in Mother Jones that Brower had written in
2001, which was a result<BR>of<BR>the GMO scandal that developed
at that time:<BR><BR><A
title=http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85
href="http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85"
target=_blank>http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85</A><BR><BR>It
gives me insight, to say the least.<BR><BR>It seems that Brower
for some reason couldn't participate in the <BR>USDA<BR>grant
for the research into the GMO-larva topic program and
$200,000<BR>grant (which he considered a pittance). Another
diverse team of<BR>experts with some of the finest academic
credentials in this country<BR>was selected and a paper resulted
published in the most prestigious<BR>peer reviewed journal in
the United States - The Proceedings of the<BR>National Academy
of Sciences:<BR><BR><A
title=http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113
href="http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113"
target=_blank>http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113</A><BR><BR>Brower's
political statement printed in Mother Jones strikes me as
<BR> a<BR>scathing, rambling condemnation and conspiracy theory
- political<BR>mobilization strategy. Is that an appropriate
place to refute a<BR>publication by trashing everyone in
government and industry? Or<BR>would<BR>it be better to respond
in the same peer review journal which
<BR>accepts<BR><BR>contrary/disagreement submissions in a
specific format for this <BR>purpose<BR><BR>called "Letters to the PNAS".
I couldn't find any retort. Maybe<BR>you'll have
better luck:<BR><BR><A
title=http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters
href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters"
target=_blank>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters</A><BR><BR>In
the 1960's time frame Lincoln had the honor to be published
in<BR>thwe<BR>PNAS himself, at least 4 times. He is also an
excellent speaker.<BR><BR>Is the "Bt-corn killing monarch
larvae" in the field still<BR>objectionable by ecologists
anymore, on a scientific basis? Now I<BR>think<BR>it finally hit
me why the monarch topic is avoided by some
list<BR>members.<BR><BR>Best<BR>Doug<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Paul Cherubini &lt;<A
title=mailto:monarch@saber.net
href="mailto:monarch@saber.net">monarch@saber.net</A>&gt;<BR>To: Leps
List &lt;<A title=mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu
href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</A>&gt;<BR>Sent:
Fri, Feb 15, 2013 4:46 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk]
Monarch Armageddon<BR><BR>On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM,
MexicoDoug wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; I added the search term
"Armageddon" for fun.<BR><BR>Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who
first set the precedent<BR>for using the word "Armageddon" in
this article and others like it:<BR><A
title=http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php
href="http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php"
target=_blank>http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php</A><BR><BR>In
the article Lincoln said this about Roundup herbicide use<BR>in
the GMO crops of the upper Midwest:<BR><BR>“It kills everything.
It’s biodiversity Armageddon,"<BR><BR>And Lincoln and Chip
Taylor collaborated on a paper<BR>and wrote: "We conclude that,
because of the extensive<BR>use of glyphosate herbicide on crops
that are genetically<BR>modified to resist the herbicide,
milkweeds will disappear<BR>almost completely from
croplands."<BR><BR>But the critically important information
they don't mention<BR>in their paper is that the field margins
of these Roundup<BR>treated GMO crops are teaming with
bumblebees, honeybees,<BR>monarchs and butterflies like
this:<BR><A title=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE"
target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE</A><BR><BR>So
those GMO croplands are not hardly a legitimate<BR>example of
"Biodiversity Armageddon"<BR><BR>Paul Cherubini<BR>El Dorado,
Calif.<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Leps-l
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