<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'>
<div>Dennis and Doug,</div>
<div>Both, nicely said, well written and all valid. Dennis, I completely agree. All things combined (it's like a pheasant flying past a dozen shotguns) sooner or later, you're gonna get it. They have little chance. And Doug, to answer one of you questions: these were established populations, especially Ottoe. I left out Sassacus because it was a fringe species, but it appears gone too. Arogos was an anomaly, but the rest were resident breeding populations that at times were huge. </div>
<div>Dennis is right though, these things have as much to worry about from over management as they do development. And, once they're gone (especially skippers) you just can't put them back. Has anyone seen that work yet? They are not like a chalkboard, you can't erase them and think that they can just be relocated. At least in my experiences, when they are gone, they're gone.</div>
<div>Jim Wiker</div>
<div></div>
<div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108@msn.com><br>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug@aol.com>; Jim Wiker <papaipema@aol.com>; Andrew Williams <studiesnature@gmail.com><br>
Sent: Sun, Feb 17, 2013 4:51 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_1_6220d2a6-daa2-4bc4-a127-1f36620c56bd">
<div>
<div>Thanks for you candid sympathy. </div>
<div>I'm afraid Jim and I agree that the elephant in the closet is prescribed
fire prairie management. These isolated preserves are partially and sometimes
totally burned and burned often. If we were to bring it up on the list
serve it will start another set of attacks. last year Shuey even wrote in the
Lep News that after they (he and the TNC) burned the hell out of their Indiana
prairies they now need to work on getting the species back. We call that prairie
creationism, right Jim?</div>
<div>So we have isolated prairie obligate leps, surrounded by toxic corn, with
huge changes in climate (moisture changes) and therefor vegetation
changes. The TNC and the DNRs are the enemy of biodiversity here.</div>
<div>Dennis</div>
<blockquote style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b> <a title="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com" href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">MexicoDoug</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="mailto:papaipema@aol.com" href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">papaipema@aol.com</a> ; <a title="mailto:dws1108@msn.com" href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</a>
; <a title="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu" href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 17, 2013 3:50
PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Thanks Jim, Thanks Dennis,<br>
<br>
I'm saddened to hear
this. I also think a reasonable interpretation <br>
could attribute this
to the farming practices, and if everything is <br>
sitting in the middle of
the corn varieties bred to have herbicide <br>
tolerance ... it doesn't take a
genius to have at least a little <br>
confidence as to the causal relationship
with the change in farming <br>
technique.<br>
<br>
I don't have the same
sensitivity to this issue as you. In my case it <br>
is simply an empty
feeling that accompanies the continued loss of <br>
biodiversity in some place
far away while I have my own set of <br>
ecological problems closer to the
heart. So it is with the due respect <br>
of not living with it in my
backyard that I ask your indulgence to <br>
think about my
comments.<br>
<br>
First, the good; I want to congratulate you both on
dedicating your <br>
time to insects that in the public perception are probably
<br>
insignificant, drab little skippers which get about as much respect as
<br>
moths in musty closet. I personally find miniature skippers
<br>
marvelously exquisite and certainly more intellectually challenging
<br>
than Monarchs sans the migration phenomenon. You are presenting
first <br>
hand data which when combined with other species statistics gives us
a <br>
more concrete measuring stick of ecological health by not picking some
<br>
"pretty" generalized ecological indicator. Far more useful for
<br>
scientific analysis to describe the rate the ecosystem is
declining.<br>
<br>
Next, the bad: As scientific, the hypothesis that it is Bt
corn (or <br>
whatever the hypothesis) needs to be tested rather than
conveniently <br>
assumed as I did in my first paragraph, I want to be sure
that I am <br>
properly interpreting the loss in its context. Are these species
at the <br>
fringe of their ranges and is there any other explanation we should
<br>
rule out? The edge of a USDA type zone which breathes
cyclically? And <br>
was this land the robust natural habitat for these
skippers before the <br>
farmers came on to the scene ... or was their
appearance likely <br>
prompted by prior farming techniques which altered the
ecosystem and <br>
gave them the cornfield-niche in the first place?
There are more <br>
considerations I'm sure you've both though about, and it is
a very <br>
healthy discussion to go through them as the due diligence of
<br>
presenting unbiased statements.<br>
<br>
Finally, the ugly: I hope anyone
reading this knows that my question <br>
was not whether the test-tube bred
corn was detrimental to habitat. It <br>
was whether the Bt-Corn pollen,
is killing the larvae as the Cornell <br>
study said it would and was used
indiscriminately under what would be <br>
pseudoscientific pretences to create
anarchy in the agricultural <br>
industry and all of its dependents 12-15 years
ago, and was still <br>
kicking and screaming 10 years ago. If it didn't,
I'm relieved but <br>
need to re-evaluate the reputation of those who jumped on
this <br>
bandwagon and see whether they fudged their research techniques for
the <br>
purpose distorting truth and advancing an agenda. Please don't
think <br>
I'm supporting the use of these agricultural techniques. I
need <br>
Bt-corn in my zone as much as I want to live next to a garbage
dump. <br>
But a balanced approach is imperative where scientific
credibility is <br>
not abused by those who prey on the ignorance of the public
perception <br>
because they feel they have a superior moral calling.
There is no room <br>
in science for Popes. In Sagan's words - there are
no "scientific <br>
authorities", just a method and to that I would add a
scholarly conduct <br>
which is as old as science itself, when it branched off
from philosophy <br>
and religion.<br>
<br>
Epilogue: In a country where less
than 2% of the population is <br>
interested in doing commercial farming and
land is being gobbled up at <br>
IMO truly alarming rates due to unfettered
population growth which is <br>
transparently demonstrable (I'm an alarmist!
;-) , it is not surprising <br>
to me that ecological niches are
decreasing. I fail to see how a small <br>
group of elite and affluent
find terrorizing technology a moral calling <br>
rather than utilizing
systematic approaches to optimizing what we <br>
have...and going back to the
basics of the 1960's ZPG population growth <br>
models. The current
national model of the USA is growth, growth, <br>
growth - for everything from
collecting taxes, to growing business and <br>
government, increasing
infrastructure, and just about everything else. <br>
I would expect to
lose niches along the way since these political <br>
pressures for growth
require that agriculture becomes more efficient as <br>
the industry is asked
to grow more food with less acreage and manpower. <br>
The fact that the
corn-belt is looking more like a factory is one <br>
visible manifestation of
this. If the glass is half empty, I'd just <br>
say, let’s all move to
the Sierra foothills of California and Oregon, <br>
and then north to
Alaska. But if it is half full, just involve the <br>
community and share
the beauty of nature in a positive manner to <br>
support a culture of
appreciation instead of finger pointing which will <br>
only turn people off
from scientists and the scientific method in <br>
general. Provide
unbiased statistics and have people miss nature <br>
instead of run away from
the scientific alarmists, infidels and <br>
priests. Since this thread
began a week ago, US population has <br>
increased by 60,000. That is 1.2
million more acres (1,800 square <br>
miles) of habitat disruption: 500,000
acres in the US and 700,000 acres <br>
outsourced. The total area mentioned is
double the area of Champaign <br>
County, Illinois. Crap. Now, to
till my first vegetable garden and <br>
identify which politicians are ZPG
friendly....<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Doug<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From:
Jim Wiker <<a title="mailto:papaipema@aol.com" href="mailto:papaipema@aol.com">papaipema@aol.com</a>><br>
To: dws1108
<<a title="mailto:dws1108@msn.com" href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</a>>; leps-l <<a title="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu" href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
Sent:
Sat, Feb 16, 2013 10:37 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<br>
<br>
Doug,<br>
Same thing A. arogos, H. ottoe, H. metea and H.
leonardus here in <br>
Illinois. Most where common to abundant (where they
occurred) into the <br>
mid 1990's. At that point they began a rather rapid
decline and now <br>
haven't been seen for a number of years. Ottoe in
particular, well into <br>
the 90's could be found by the hundreds in several
sites, I saw the <br>
last one in Illinois with Bob Pyle in 2008. It, nor the
others have <br>
been seen since.<br>
Jim Wiker<br>
Greenview,
IL<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dennis Schlicht
&lt;<a href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: MexicoDoug
&lt;<a href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">mexicodoug@aol.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: leps-l
&lt;<a href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:11
pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<br>
<br>
Doug,<br>
They were doing Ok through the 80's and most of the
90's but then were <br>
wiped out by the late 2000's. Poweshiek numbers went
from around 100 on <br>
one site to none by 2010. These species were on
preserves, not farm <br>
land, but were surrounded by row crops. Gone or nearly
so are O. <br>
poweshiek, A. arogos, H. dacotae, H. ottoe and C. inornata. A
few <br>
others are not far behind.<br>
Dennis Schlicht<br>
Iowa Lepidoptera
Project<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From:
MexicoDoug<br>
To: <a title="mailto:dws1108@msn.com" href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</a><br>
Cc: <a title="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu" href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:54 AM<br>
Subject: Re:
[Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<br>
<br>
<br>
Dennis,<br>
<br>
It would be helpful to know whether
these species' disappearances in<br>
your area were doing well
before the Bt corn, or already on the brink<br>
of loss due to the
farming practices. Also, whether this loss you've<br>
documented is
due to the larva of the respective species ingesting<br>
amounts
toxic to them and dying due to it as was proposed by
the<br>
Cornell group. If it wasn't, I'd argue the unfortunate
situation was,<br>
at best, not helped by a raging controversy which
IMO served to <br>
divert<br>
and divide attention from these
issues, and not present work in<br>
alternate peer reviewed
journals - which could be as simple as <br>
computer<br>
models to
maintain a greater degree of biodiversity.<br>
<br>
Could a more
collaborative environment have come up with real
<br>
solutions<br>
and perhaps a coordinated crop rotation scheme
which maintained some<br>
useful wild area interspersed
intelligently (where students at local <br>
ag<br>
colleges in a
supportive roll could participate in the design as part<br>
of
their curriculum)? Perhaps not. But it's not too late to find
<br>
out<br>
- I hope.<br>
<br>
I'm not trying to be a Monday morning
quarterback; and my post was <br>
not<br>
in support of Bt-corn. I'm
glad it's not in my backyard, and how<br>
boring it must be to try
to go Lepping in such an area. It's seeing<br>
the tactics used by
scientists we trust. My favorite butterfly<br>
observing grounds
was a unique mountain foothill habitat on disturbed<br>
ground
which had become overgrown and basically wild and teaming
with<br>
over 100 species of butterflies, and at any given time at least
1/3<br>
that amount. Now, the many hectares, without exception, are
parking<br>
lots and malls and shopping areas in a series of new sprawled
out<br>
commercial centers - and at the boundaries are residential areas
with<br>
manicured lawns and the like. The development wiped out
everything<br>
except the cockroaches and people and occasional vagrant that
ends up<br>
plastered to a radiator grill.<br>
<br>
I am sure we all are
sensitive to the overpopulation problem. Every<br>
year the US adds
3,000,000 people. In 1965 it was 194 million; <br>
today,<br>
over
315 million. It is difficult for me to fathom how much
<br>
equivalent<br>
habit is destroyed for each person for their
activities (imagine<br>
3,000,000 dumped concentrated into your
state - that is approximately<br>
the average amount by state since
1965, btw) , "infrastructure<br>
development", and of course the
food they require. For some reason <br>
no<br>
one is having any success
in controlling this and we are stuck with<br>
these
consequences everywhere. We could outsource farming,
by<br>
importing more food from Canada, etc., but then we'd only be
<br>
exporting<br>
the environmental drain with it to other
places...<br>
<br>
Very sorry to hear what you
reported,<br>
Doug<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Dennis Schlicht
&lt;<a href="mailto:dws1108@msn.com">dws1108@msn.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: leps-l
&lt;<a href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>&gt;; MexicoDoug
<br>
&lt;<a href="mailto:mexicodoug@aol.com">mexicodoug@aol.com</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013
9:48 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<br>
<br>
Doug,<br>
The article below says Bt corn was 19% of the
crop then. It's 80-90%<br>
now. While all of this Monarch concern
has been going on, we have <br>
lost<br>
5 prairie obligate
butterflies in the tall-grass prairie/ Bt corn<br>
region (my data
in Iowa). Our prairies are surrounded by corn.<br>
Dennis
Schlicht<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From:
MexicoDoug<br>
To: <a title="mailto:monarch@saber.net" href="mailto:monarch@saber.net">monarch@saber.net</a> ; <a title="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu" href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:35 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l]
[leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon<br>
<br>
<br>
"Doug, it was Lincoln
Brower who first set the precedent<br>
for using the word
"Armageddon" in this article and others like
<br>
it:"<br>
<br>
Paul,<br>
<br>
Huh ;-0 ??? I honestly didn't know
and wouldn't expect he was the<br>
source.<br>
<br>
I wonder what
the majority of unbiased scientists think of someone
<br>
of<br>
Lincoln Brower's repute throwing out words such as
"Armageddon" to<br>
describe the evolving sciences in
agro-biotechnology. This is really<br>
an insult to science;
'Armageddon' has deeply religious connotations<br>
and is from the
New Testament Bible the destruction of the Devil an<br>
epic battle
when God comes down and unleashes his fury. What
place<br>
do<br>
such religious overtone-statements have in science
other than to<br>
polarize/bias, divert and offend researchers
and constructive<br>
discussion?<br>
<br>
I just Googled, and sadly
it seems you are right. I found this<br>
article<br>
in Mother
Jones that Brower had written in 2001, which was a
result<br>
of<br>
the GMO scandal that developed at that
time:<br>
<br>
<a title="http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85" href="http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85" target="_blank">http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85</a><br>
<br>
It
gives me insight, to say the least.<br>
<br>
It seems that Brower
for some reason couldn't participate in the <br>
USDA<br>
grant for
the research into the GMO-larva topic program and
$200,000<br>
grant (which he considered a pittance). Another
diverse team of<br>
experts with some of the finest academic
credentials in this country<br>
was selected and a paper resulted
published in the most prestigious<br>
peer reviewed journal in the
United States - The Proceedings of the<br>
National Academy of
Sciences:<br>
<br>
<a title="http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113" href="http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113" target="_blank">http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113</a><br>
<br>
Brower's
political statement printed in Mother Jones strikes me as
<br>
a<br>
scathing, rambling condemnation and conspiracy theory
- political<br>
mobilization strategy. Is that an appropriate
place to refute a<br>
publication by trashing everyone in
government and industry? Or<br>
would<br>
it be better to respond in
the same peer review journal which
<br>
accepts<br>
<br>
contrary/disagreement submissions in a specific
format for this <br>
purpose<br>
<br>
called "Letters to the PNAS". I
couldn't find any retort. Maybe<br>
you'll have better
luck:<br>
<br>
<a title="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters" href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters" target="_blank">http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters</a><br>
<br>
In
the 1960's time frame Lincoln had the honor to be published
in<br>
thwe<br>
PNAS himself, at least 4 times. He is also an
excellent speaker.<br>
<br>
Is the "Bt-corn killing monarch larvae"
in the field still<br>
objectionable by ecologists anymore, on a
scientific basis? Now I<br>
think<br>
it finally hit me why the
monarch topic is avoided by some
list<br>
members.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Doug<br>
<br>
-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Paul Cherubini
&lt;<a href="mailto:monarch@saber.net">monarch@saber.net</a>&gt;<br>
To: Leps List
&lt;<a href="mailto:leps-l@mailman.yale.edu">leps-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri, Feb 15, 2013
4:46 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch
Armageddon<br>
<br>
On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM, MexicoDoug
wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; I added the search term "Armageddon" for
fun.<br>
<br>
Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the
precedent<br>
for using the word "Armageddon" in this article and
others like it:<br>
<a title="http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php" href="http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php" target="_blank">http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php</a><br>
<br>
In
the article Lincoln said this about Roundup herbicide use<br>
in
the GMO crops of the upper Midwest:<br>
<br>
“It kills everything.
It’s biodiversity Armageddon,"<br>
<br>
And Lincoln and Chip
Taylor collaborated on a paper<br>
and wrote: "We conclude that,
because of the extensive<br>
use of glyphosate herbicide on crops
that are genetically<br>
modified to resist the herbicide,
milkweeds will disappear<br>
almost completely from
croplands."<br>
<br>
But the critically important information they
don't mention<br>
in their paper is that the field margins of these
Roundup<br>
treated GMO crops are teaming with bumblebees,
honeybees,<br>
monarchs and butterflies like this:<br>
<a title="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE</a><br>
<br>
So
those GMO croplands are not hardly a legitimate<br>
example of
"Biodiversity Armageddon"<br>
<br>
Paul Cherubini<br>
El Dorado,
Calif.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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