[Nhcoll-l] Information about fluid collections
Galpin Juliette
juliette.galpin at lehavre.fr
Tue Aug 22 11:10:40 EDT 2017
Dear Everybody,
Some information :
- Actually, we have no scientists any more in our team, so any measurements could be difficult (osmotic pressure, ethanol concentration, etc.), and may be done by a lab for us. So I'll see if it is possible to do it, in the time and the deadlines which are granted to us...
- We have to transfer almost 300 containers and specimens.
- With all your information and advices, I will make a summary for my colleagues and talk with them to see if we keep thinking about Kaiserling or if some other preservative solutions can be thought of. And if we keep the idea of Kaiserling, we'll decide which process to run carefully. It is a difficult inquiry because it is a difficult subject and process... Anyway, whatever is the solution we decide to use, thank you very much for ALL your advices and information ! I will keep in touch to tell you what final decision we will take.
Thanks again.
Good wishes.
Juliette Galpin
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Neumann, Dirk [mailto:Dirk.Neumann at zsm.mwn.de]
Envoyé : lundi 21 août 2017 16:29
À : Galpin Juliette
Cc : Simon Moore; rw at protectheritage.com; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu; Baglione Gabrielle; Cremiere Cédric
Objet : Re: [Nhcoll-l] Information about fluid collections
Dear Galpin,
as mentiond before in the various emails the proposed transfer of a complete fluid collection (harbouring quite different zoological
specimens) into Kaiserling is unique (at least I don't know of any similar example in the recent past). This is a very complex venture and not "just" changing the holding fluid.
To avoid damage to the specimens during this transfer - and I doubt that Kaiserling is the better option as holding fluid - different procedures which are tailored for specific organismal Groups should be applied (cf.
Simon's email). This especially applies, if your specimens are currently stored in water-based (formalin) or alcohol-based fluids.
As Rob correctly mentions, osmotic pressure is an activity of water that aims to reach a new equilibrium via exchanging water molecules over semi-premeable membranes (such as cell membranes of preserved specimens), but the other two driving factors are
1.permeability of those cell membranes (and there surely is not only a big difference between terrestrial, aquatic or marine specimens,but also between crayfish and let's says jelly fish - as Simon already mentioned), and
2. salt content inside Body cells compared to the surrounding (Holding) fluid; as the dissolved ions in each specimen jar will differ, the overall variance you may encounter in your specimen jar will be high.
Other procedures may be suited to cause severe damage to your collection, wich may pose the risk that all specimens are in Kaiserling, but no longer usable for Researchers.
It doesn't seem that there is a fixed path you can follow. As was already suggested, it would definitely be worth to do some testing frist, and then carefully do the Transfer of individual specimen jars based on the results of your testing.
All the best
Dirk
De : Simon Moore [mailto:couteaufin at btinternet.com]
Envoyé : lundi 21 août 2017 16:17
À : Galpin Juliette
Cc : rw at protectheritage.com; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu; Cremiere Cédric; Baglione Gabrielle
Objet : Re: [Nhcoll-l] Information about fluid collections
Hi Juliette,
Generally I have found that stages in a ladder take about 2 hours immersion but this is averaging; larger more muscled specimens obviously take a bit longer while the specimen composition can adjust to the specific gravity of the new fluid.
The problem with what Rob has said is that generally, most specimens can accommodate the change from ethanol to Kaiserling without all the in-between stages, however, I have found in practise, that this is risky, leading to osmotic shrivelling in some tissues, so I make it good practice to make the stages, even though Rob suggests that it’s unnecessary.
I have often found that wherever these changes are proposed on paper, or for health and safety reasons, that they are new ideas that present a Utopian view on how collections should be managed. In reality, this is quite different and I could quote at least one example where a major museum proposed in the 1970s, that all of its fluid specimens should be moved into a propylene glycol and 2-phenoxyethanol preservative (originally designed for zooplankton) and with disastrous and expensive results! This is one good reason why I dislike people changing fluids for specimens in which they have safely resided for years. As for Health & Safety or flammability issues, I have not heard of any (yet) problems with using the formalin and alcohol as preservatives; we are adults after all and understand the risks and precautions involved. For areas of the world where there is geological instability or where Summer temperatures frequently rise to 40 deg. C, this might be different.
Anyway, this is my opinion and although it may be beneficial to transfer some of the collection to KIII, I would not advise it as a blanket preservative. Instead and by all means, take fresh material through the Kaiserling preservation technique.
I’m sorry if this has been a difficult enquiry.
With all good wishes, Simon.
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
www.natural-history-conservation.com
De : rw at protectheritage.com [mailto:rw at protectheritage.com]
Envoyé : lundi 21 août 2017 15:45
À : Galpin Juliette
Objet : RE: [Nhcoll-l] Information about fluid collections
Hi Juliette,
I should clarify, osmotic pressure measurements would only be required for the solutions being used as a final preservative and any staging solutions employed. That would just be a handful of tests and might be done for you by a nearby conservation or chemistry lab with thermal analysis equipment. I have assumed that you can determine ethanol concentration through density measurements.
I would very much seek the advice of John, Dirk, Simon and our other zoological colleagues on any possible and recommended alternative final preservative solutions, and evaluate the pros and cons of each, before committing to one. I don’t recall you mentioning the number of containers involved but I strongly suggest documenting the alternatives considered, their benefits and drawbacks, and your bases for a final choice on what fluid to transfer to. That need not be lengthy but should be clear.
Please do share that with the group as many of us will be interested in what you learn.
I salute you for caring to ask about these issues before jumping in to doing something!
Best,
Rob
Am 2017-08-21 15:21, schrieb Galpin Juliette:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks again for all these advices.
>
> I understand better all the steps of the process I have to follow to
> make it right …
>
> Do you have any idea of how long the process (successive baths) takes
> for a specimen like a fish (salmon for example) ?
>
> But, with the last message of Robert Waller, I don’t know what I
> should do any more … Is it best to follow the ladder, or to transfer
> directly the specimens into Kaiserling, maybe with just a bath of
> water or ethanol to make the specimen release the formol, just for 1
> day ?
>
> And actually, I’ve never done measurements of osmotic pressure … So it
> scares me a little to do it 3 times for each specimen.
>
> The collection is not really used nor studied scientifically for the
> moment. We don’t think it will be more studied in the future, but its
> reconditioning will have to allow scientific studies, even if we don’t
> know in which purposes yet. Actually, the principal goal is to make
> the collection safer for its move and storage.
>
> In fact, if I’m understanding all that you said right, you advise us
> to change our mind and use other solutions which will be easier to put
> in place and will be less at risk for the specimens … Am I right ?
>
> Thanks again !
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Juliette Galpin
>
> DE : rw at protectheritage.com [mailto:rw at protectheritage.com]
> ENVOYÉ : dimanche 20 août 2017 19:26 À : Galpin Juliette; 'John E
> Simmons'; 'Dirk Neumann'
> CC : nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu; Baglione Gabrielle; Cremiere Cédric
> OBJET : RE: [Nhcoll-l] Information about fluid collections
>
> Hi all,
>
> Much of this discussion is beyond my area of expertise but I do want
> to point out some apparent misunderstandings about osmotic pressure.
>
> Osmotic pressure is a product of water activity and is independent of
> what substances are causing the reduction in water activity, that is,
> whether ethanol, glycerol, potassium acetate or whatever. It would
> seem unwise to step through dilutions of ethanol then progressions of
> concentration to another preservative solely for the purposes of
> reducing osmotic pressure differences. The least osmotic pressure
> difference may be through direct transfer or some other path. I do
> want to recognize that there may be other reasons for wanting to go
> through a stepped procedure but we should not think that is the only,
> or the best, way to complete a transfer while avoiding osmotic
> pressure differences. Measurements of osmotic pressure differences
> between initial, final, and intermediate solutions will be required.
> For ethanol water solutions the data available in: Waller and Strang,
> Physical-chemical properties of preservative solutions I:
> Ethanol-water solutions. Collection Forum 12(2), 70-85, 1996.. I
> suspect for Kaiserling solution new measurements will be required.
> These can be easily made through freezing point depression
> measurements – an experiment many of us may have conducted in grade
> school.
>
> Finally, I hope options other than Kaiserling solution will be
> identified and evaluated before a course of action is decided upon.
> Most notably, what are the current and anticipated uses of the
> collection, and how will collection utility for those purposes be
> affected by whatever preservative solution is chosen, from among
> several options considered.
>
> Best,
>
> Rob
>
> Robert Waller, PhD, CAPC, FIIC
> President and Senior Risk Analyst
> Protect Heritage Corp.
> 622 Simoneau Way
> Ottawa ON K4A 1P4
> email: rw at protectheritage.com
> internet: www.protectheritage.com [9]
> phone: 613-883-2707 (Canada)
> phone: 303-872-9739 (USA)
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>
> skype: rrwaller
>
> _and, _Research Associate, Canadian Museum of Nature _and,_ Adjunct
> Assistant Professor, Queen’s University
>
> [11] [12]
>
> DE : Simon Moore [mailto:couteaufin at btinternet.com]
> ENVOYÉ : vendredi 18 août 2017 11:59
> À : Galpin Juliette
> CC : nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> OBJET : Re: [Nhcoll-l] Information about fluid collections
>
> Hi Juliette,
>
> Firstly, it is wise to make up the Kaiserling III preservative well in
> advance before use, this will help to avoid some of the air bubble
> issues. Make sure that the glycerine is thoroughly mixed in, there
> should be no Schleren optic effects!
>
> Ideally to move specimens from alcohol to K III does involve a large
> osmotic pressure change and I am always advising against it. I have
> never preserved medusae or other jelly forms in it, however some jewel
> anemones (Corynactis viridis) survived well but these were collected
> fresh, narcotised and taken through the Kaiserling process!
>
> I would suggest, that if this process really must go ahead that you
> try a few experimental runs first. It will take up much of your time,
> bearing in mind that you will have to take each specimen down a
> hydration ladder to water and then into a KIII solution with only half
> the glycerine content so that the specimens can accommodate to this
> stage - they will float at first and then gradually sink, then they
> can be transferred to the next stage - this will happened all the way
> down the ladder of alcohols - 60%, 40%, 20%, 10%, water, half-strength
> KIII then normal KIII. You will need a small tank for each stage -
> the clip-top plastic ‘really useful’ boxes are good for this and you
> will need one of those kitchen serving/straining ladles with holes in
> it to transfer the specimens gently through each stage!
>
> I have had no experience of preserving DNA in KIII, I have always used
> 96% ethanol. For the formula I have always used: Kaiserling III
> (preservative): Potassium acetate (200g), glycerol (300), distilled
> water (900). There are many later variations and modifications
> including Lunquist’s.
>
> Thymol is a useful additive to prevent fungal growth and the camphor
> is good although I have never tried this modification before.
> Normally the pot. acetate will be enough to prevent germination of
> fungal spores but it’s always best to take precautions, especially
> with so many specimens.
>
> Feel free to come back to me and the List if you have any issues,
> further questions.
>
> With all good wishes, Simon.
>
> Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
> Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
> www.natural-history-conservation.com [13]
>
>> On 18 Aug 2017, at 08:50, Galpin Juliette
>> <juliette.galpin at lehavre.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Everybody,
>>
>> Thank you all for answering me so quickly !
>>
>> Actually, the collection needs to be moved into safer fluids, for its
>> own conservation (the fluids are evaporating), and because it will be
>> moved to a new storage, that need to match new standards (no
>> flammable or toxic products allowed, no evaporation of products,
>> keeping the possibility of studying DNA, etc.). It is compulsory from
>> our guardianship and funders of our new storage location. And
>> Kaiserling seemed like a good idea, because it matches all these
>> constraints. But I completely understand all the reservations you
>> have regarding this operation and the harm it could do to specimens.
>> That is why I need all the help possible to do this operation,
>> keeping the risks to a minimum.
>>
>> Simon, you assumed well, we have many marine organisms like fishes,
>> shellfishes, cnidarians, sponges, ascidians, and so on... But we also
>> have mammals, reptilians and amphibians for instance. Will Kaiserling
>> be fine for these specimens too ? Do they need more precautions ?
>>
>> How could I do to avoid having these bubbles due to changing in
>> osmotic pressure ? I don’t know how to measure this osmotic pressure
>> and watch out for its changeover… And we don’t know in which fluid
>> the collections are currently preserved, neither the way they were
>> fixed.
>>
>> Could you help me set the better process to do this changeover with
>> all precautions needed please ? For a changeover into ethanol, I’ve
>> seen that the specimens must have been adapted to their new fluid by
>> successive baths of ethanol at different concentrations. Do I have to
>> follow the same process with Kaiserling ?
>>
>> I will only use the preservative fluid, because all the specimens
>> have already been fixed (I guess).
>>
>> For the formula of the preservative solution, I’ve found that it is
>> 900g Potassium acetate ; 6L Water ; 3,6L glycerol ; and some thymol.
>> What are the good proportions for the mixture then ?! Thank for the
>> recipe and the way to do it, but is it the same with thymol than with
>> camphor ?
>>
>> Again, thank you very much to all of you for helping me to implement
>> this delicate operation.
>>
>> Kind regards.
>>
>> Juliette Galpin
>>
>> Juliette,
>>
>> You have asked a very interesting question. I agree with the
>> responses from my colleagues concerning the caution about osmotic
>> pressure and the kinds of specimens involved. Could you please tell
>> us (1) what kinds of specimens are in the collection (marine
>> invertebrates or vertebrates, fresh water or terrestrial
>> invertebrates or vertebrates?) and (2) the reason why you are
>> considering changing the preserving to Kaiserling? Kaiserling has
>> been mostly used for anatomical specimens in an attempt to preserve
>> the color of the tissues, and as far as I know it has not been used
>> on a very wide variety of natural history specimens.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> John
>>
>> John E. Simmons
>> Museologica
>> 128 E. Burnside Street
>> Bellefonte, Pennsylvania 16823-2010
>> simmons.johne at gmail.com
>> 303-681-5708
>> www.museologica.com [3]
>> and
>> Adjunct Curator of Collections
>> Earth and Mineral Science Museum & Art Gallery Penn State University
>> University Park, Pennsylvania and Instructor, Museum Studies School
>> of Library and Information Science Kent State University
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Dirk Neumann
>> <dirk.neumann at zsm.mwn.de> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Simon,
>> dear Galpin,
>>
>> the baseline for changing the holding fluid is: Do not change, unless
>> there is a good reason to do so.
>>
>>> From a collection care point of view, fire protection or toxicity
>> problems - for me - would not be a proper reason if in the long run
>> the new condition would harm the integrity of the specimen.
>>
>> Also, because of the acidity, I would refrain of changing the fluid
>> unless there is a real good reason to do so (maybe part of the
>> collection, or specific specimens from a lot containing several
>> specimens for a specific research purpose).
>>
>> Btw:
>> Mahoney (1973) Laboratory Techniques in Zoology gives the following
>> recipes (Pick-Judah formula) (Simon, please comment if this wouldn't
>> make sense)
>>
>> KI (fixative)
>> Potassium acetate 42.5g
>> Potassium nitrate 22.5g
>> Distilled water 1.6 L
>> 40% formalin solution 400ml (full strength)
>>
>> Salt are dissolved in hot water, formalin is added to the cooled
>> solution
>>
>> KII (colour reviver)
>> EtOH 96 %
>>
>> KIII (perservative)
>> Sodium acetate 36.0g
>> Distilled water 120.0ml
>> Camphor 5.0ml (4% EtOH solution)
>> Glycerol 72ml
>>
>> (The solution is made by adding the ingredients in the order given.
>> At first, the camphor is thrown out of solution but redissolves on
>> allowing the solution to stand)
>>
>> All the best
>> Dirk
>>
>> Am 16.08.2017 um 13:19 schrieb Simon Moore:
>>
>> Hi Juliette,
>>
>> No problem about getting in touch.
>>
>> You mention re-packing a collection. Is this collection to be moved
>> or stored or did you mean that is needs to be moved into safer
>> fluids? The latter is indicative of a move for museums with such
>> collections to be rid of fluids that are flammable and/or toxic.
>>
>> There are various concerns about this as the condition of the
>> specimens is what should be the real issue here. As you are based at
>> LeHavre I am assuming that you should have many marine organisms in
>> fluids? For many such organisms a move to Kaiserling III will be
>> fine but you have to bear in mind that the osmotic pressure of KIII
>> is considerably different to that of ethanol, even formalin. For
>> delicate organisms (medusae, siphonophores) this changeover has to be
>> carried out very carefully or you will end up with air bubbles inside
>> them that appear when binary/tertiary azeotropes are used - miscible
>> fluids of different specific gravities. You also need to bear in
>> mind that Kaiserling’s technique was devised mainly for anatomy
>> specimens as the preservative is good for maintaining the colour of
>> blood and organs that filter it (liver, kidney). I have successfully
>> colour-preserved marine organisms that were freshly collected and
>> using the 3 stage technique - fixation, colour enhancement and
>> preservation.
>>
>> All of this may sound rather negative but I am just warning you to be
>> careful with the changeover. I would also post the enquiry onto the
>> conservation forum: nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu to see if anyone else
>> is doing this and to see if they have any concerns.
>>
>> The formula for the Kaiserling method is: Kaiserling I (fixative):
>> 40% formaldehyde (400) [tlv 3], potassium acetate (50 g), potassium
>> nitrate (30 g), distilled water (1000).
>>
>> Kaiserling II (enhancer/colour restorer): 80-90% ethanol. Use until
>> colour returns if it has chemically ‘faded’ in fixative – may be
>> minutes for smaller specimens. Some like to add some potassium
>> hydrosulphite if being stored for more than a few days.
>>
>> Kaiserling III (preservative): Potassium acetate (200g), glycerol
>> (300), distilled water (900).
>>
>> With all good wishes, Simon.
>>
>> Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
>> Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
>> www.natural-history-conservation.com [4]
>>
>> On 16 Aug 2017, at 10:37, Galpin Juliette
>> <juliette.galpin at lehavre.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> My name is Juliette Galpin and I’m in charge of all the scientific
>> collection in the Natural History Museum of Le Havre, in France.
>>
>> I’m following the advice of Judith White, in Natural History Museum,
>> who told me to get in touch with you. Hope you won’t mind.
>>
>>
>> We have a collection which is maintained in fluids, and we want to
>> repack it. The specimens are currently in liquid as Alcool, Ethanol
>> and a bit of Formol. And we wish to recondition it in Kaiserling III,
>> which is a mixture of glycerin and acetate of potassium without any
>> formol. I don’t know if you know, or use, this liquid.
>>
>> I’ve found some of your papers about collections in fluids, but there
>> is few literature about Kaiserling precisely, and I don’t really know
>> how to create this liquid correctly.
>>
>> Do you know this product, or someone who might know and use it, or
>> maybe know the process to adapt the specimens to their new
>> conservation fluid ?
>>
>> Thank you very much for your answer and all the help you can provide
>> me,
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Juliette Galpin
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>>
>> JULIETTE GALPIN
>> In charge of Natural history Collections
>>
>> Natural history Museum
>> Ville du Havre
>> juliette.galpin at lehavre.fr
>> Tél. : 02 35 54 75 89 / 02.32.74.79.90
>>
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> _hJkw5F2sMUmH0Nl7mDt2jiY&s=Q68m7UHxI0JOb8NE7fTQh74O6YrzMiczUotWcxi
> wwDk&e=
> [5]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zsm.mwn.de_&d=DwMG
> aQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJ
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> CQfrQI-JTiahHC8tiJHpI6vjM&e=
> [6]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich
> _&d=DwMDaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x
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> 8Lk&s=8Zh0xUjYqJupqeAd7-PNK6RCW0nhvxm9IA-6D27jobw&e=
> [7] tel:+49%2089%208107111
> [8] tel:+49%2089%208107300
> [9]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.protectheritag
> e.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUM
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> lxGcerJgj9ik1K_TyC-LYbMTDFyftXW88giogU&e=
> [10]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__orcid.org_0000-2D0
> 002-2D9500-2D4113&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hh
> eb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=DDLDmZjdGZy43jnYILyX3W4UVINrZKKvLB57ry2H
> 9kk&s=idOmFLDQWGDzil2OALvQWb39HNXdadAcb_uhWL-gK1o&e=
> [11]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_P
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> W4UVINrZKKvLB57ry2H9kk&s=yA49ucZoKb8pcdNbfcwigIE0QBRZQiWbnxIu06nJpjw&e
> =
> [12]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_-23-2
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> 9kk&s=P806XbtDL-H_2eG-jAp7Afw7yL-HfUGJhfILxz-YLxY&e=
> [13]
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.natural-2Dhist
> ory-2Dconservation.com&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1K
> Rw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=DDLDmZjdGZy43jnYILyX3W4UVINrZKKvLB5
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> [14]
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> ueM7Muv8qs4YeBtn-nrqs1Wr1e-8&e=
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