[Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Thu Mar 1 14:58:34 EST 2018

Jean-Marc

Yes, we always request a sample before ordering lids to ensure quality of lid and thread.  O'Berk has been good at finding other suppliers when necessary to get a good quality product.

Andy
    A  :             A  :             A  :
 }<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°>
    V                V                V
Andy Bentley
Ichthyology Collection Manager
University of Kansas
Biodiversity Institute
Dyche Hall
1345 Jayhawk Boulevard<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
Lawrence, KS, 66045-7561<x-apple-data-detectors://9>
USA<x-apple-data-detectors://9>

Tel: (785) 864-3863<tel:%28785%29%20864-3863>
Fax: (785) 864-5335<tel:%28785%29%20864-5335>
Email: abentley at ku.edu<mailto:abentley at ku.edu>
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=XECjS3UJSDw8XgCl9V4a2xcEk042jTW91GqztnBxEzI&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu_&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=Se3wQlxaclptLA4SM8mMmhcKgvJzhiDGsSCyzZjlWbU&e=>
    A  :             A  :             A  :
 }<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°>
    V                V                V

From: nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] On Behalf Of Jean-Marc Gagnon
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 1:56 PM
To: Dirk Neumann <dirk.neumann at zsm.mwn.de>
Cc: nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Dirk,

I agree with Andy that larger PP lids, with proper 1.5-turn thread, and if possible with a good liner, will still give good results.
Occasionally, however, a supplier will send us lids that are too thin and tend to change shape; even worst when these same lids only have one turn for the thread.
So it is a good thing to ask for samples before actually purchasing a large quantity.
As we move to lids larger than 100mm, it is more difficult to find the proper thread and a F217 liner.

So, it is not perfect for those larger jars.

Jean-Marc

From: Dirk Neumann [mailto:dirk.neumann at zsm.mwn.de]
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 2:13 AM
To: Jean-Marc Gagnon <JMGAGNON at nature.ca<mailto:JMGAGNON at nature.ca>>; Mike Rutherford <Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu<mailto:Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Good morning Jean-Marc, Mike & Andy!

We have metal lids since the 1990ies in our collection. At the moment, I occasionally have to replace those which have and additional PE foil originally thought and introduced to improve the closure. In fact it traps condensates and accelerates deterioration (rusting ) of lids.

As we have huge troubles with our climate control systems since several years (system dates back to 1985 and never worked properly, leading to RH shift btw. 80-30 %, yesterday I was even below 30% ..) and temperature shifts ranging from 16-24°C, metal lids in our collection are all but under stable, controlled conditions. Adding to this, we have the quite aggressive ketone MEK as denaturant. Still, the metal lids do fine, and our observations in Munich largely agree with observations Emily Dock made in Stockholm. (Warén, A., E. Dock-Åkerman, and H. Taylor. 2010. Metal-lid jars in museum collections? Collection Forum 24(1-2):52-61.)

Perhaps there is a difference in industry norms or production standards between North America and Europe ? I know the Steigerwald & Laframboise paper, but the question of taping all jars (and re-doing all taping once the jars are opened) is a simple cost-benefit question: a metal lid is less then 10 cent and replacing a lid is less then 5 seconds, re-doing the taping takes 1-2 minutes plus tape costs. We have a rather small, but heavily frequented collection, so replacing metal lids is the cheaper option for us.

My observation is that PP-lids with PE-liners do fine up to 45 mm neck opening. Above that (50 mm), closures are not that good and jars show increased evaporation issues. So our strategy at the moment is: PP-lids with PE-Liners for 100ml-300 ml jars (rarely 500-1000 with 50 mmm necks), 1200-1700 ml jars with metal lids and above only borosilicate with plane or ground stopper closures (typical sizes are 300 mm x 80 mm and 300 x 150 mm for flanged and 400 x 150 mm & 600 x 200 mm for stoppered).

Mike's question was to replace metal lids for jars which were designed for metal lids. Because of the narrow threads of those jars and the fact that opening would be rather wide (if I understood Mike's question correctly), I doubt that PP-screw on lids for diameters above 50 mm would be a could replacement. Independent of this I definitely agree that replacement of entire jars (compromised metal lids in jars with necks up to 50 mm in diameter) with jars with PP-lids would be a good idea. Depending on the climatic conditions inside storage. PP lids with PE liners are surely a much better oxygen barrier compared to PVC.-lids, but still allow diffusion of oxygen. Metal lids have a better performance in this regard.

In the end there are several trade-offs and no straight forwards solution, I guess.

All the best
Dirk

Am 27.02.2018 um 21:41 schrieb Jean-Marc Gagnon:
Dirk,

I was a little surprised by your response, promoting metal lids as opposed to Polypropylene lids. We (at CMN) have not had any success with metal lids, even with what seems to be reasonable, ethanol-resistant liners. Even the metal lids designed for Mason Jars, commonly used for preserves in North America, will rust after a while.

In all our fluid-preserved collections, we have been using with great success Polypropylene lids for decades (of course, with two full tread turns), along with the F217 PE liner and sealing tape (see Steigerwald and Laframboise (1996). TAPE APPLICATION: A JAR SEALING METHOD FOR REDUCING ETHANOL EVAPORATION IN FLUID-PRESERVED COLLECTIONS. Collection Forum Volume 12, Number 2).

While we haven't quantitatively measured that success, I can tell you that in our wet Mollusc Collection, prior to 2002, we would have many jars needing retopping after only a few years (they often only had the PP lids with no liner or tape). But after applying the standard I described above in 2002, we literally haven't had to retop the ethanol in any of the jars in the past 15-16 years.

Is it always perfect: No. But we have had very little failure in these lids and liners. The tape is always reapplied fresh if a jar needs to be open; it is relatively inexpensive (from Spectape Inc.) so that I not an issue.

I hope this helps.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc Gagnon, Ph.D.
Curator/Conservateur, Invertebrate Collections/Collections de invertébrés
Tel : 613-364-4066, email/courriel : jmgagnon at nature.ca<mailto:jmgagnon at nature.ca>
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nature.ca_en_research-2Dcollections_science-2Dexperts_jean-2Dmarc-2Dgagnon&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=ezgpjxXkZ9pNx4JAaqw9RIpOIUMafo48QFzWbhWObWQ&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nature.ca_en_research-2Dcollections_science-2Dexperts_jean-2Dmarc-2Dgagnon&d=DwMFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=qAP2rtYMJLzKSPFPIsks3kzlRsbzV5-ACDuk3UuVdy8&s=dEIbysB1PrOaJOMZqW70tBqk3vcmZSsRVC4IVwqQCpk&e=>

Research & Collections / Recherche & Collections
Canadian Museum of Nature /Musée canadien de la nature
P.O. Box 3443, Sta. D / Casier Postal 3443, Succ. D
Ottawa, ON K1P 6P4
Canada
(Courier address : 1740 Pink Road, Gatineau, QC, J9J 3N7)

From: nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] On Behalf Of Dirk Neumann
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: Mike Rutherford <Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu><mailto:Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Dear Mike,

depending on the climatic conditions inside you storage area and the holding fluid the specimens are stored in rusting of lids can be a major issue of course. However, because of the narrow thread of twist-off jars, I am not entirely sure of the metal lids can be easily replaced with plastic lids. The latter usually need higher threads because plastic lids tend to be deformed when screwed tight. This is the reason why jars with plastic lids normally have two fully closed thread turns, compared to jars with metal lids which usually only have half thread turns.

Moreover, plastic lids (e.g. PE or PP lids) do not form a good barrier against oxygen, and changing lids might increase or trigger oxidation issues inside jars.

My advice would be to look into modern metal lids designed for food industry to close jars with sour ingredients (compared to lids for sweet stuff such as jam or honey); these usually have thicker liners inside which protect lids against scratching. Also made bad experiences with (self-designed) PE-foil inlays, an earlier curator introduced in our collection: the foil is no good barrier against compounds evaporation from holding fluids, but a perfect trap to hold condensates inside a tiny, highly corrosive atmosphere lid and foil which tends to accelerate deterioration of metal lids.

Might be worth to check in the food sector for replacement lids or inquire such suppliers where to find 130mm lids.

All the best
Dirk

Am 21.02.2018 um 21:57 schrieb Mike Rutherford:
Hi,

I'm trying to source large polypropylene screw top lids for some glass jars I have in my museum. The jars are wide mouthed and squat, making them ideal for those weird shaped specimens but the current lids are thin metal ones which are corroding badly. My previous source for lids was Carolina Biological Supplies but their maximum size of lid is 120mm diameter and I need ones of 130mm diameter.

Can anyone suggest a supplier, preferably in the western hemisphere?

Cheers,
Mike

Mr. Mike G. Rutherford
Curator of the University of the West Indies Zoology Museum (UWIZM)
Department of Life Sciences
The University of The West Indies
St. Augustine Campus
Trinidad & Tobago, W.I.
T: (Office) 868-662-2002 ext 82231
T: (Mobile) 868-329-8401
E: mike.rutherford at sta.uwi.edu<mailto:mike.rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>
S: mike.g.rutherford

Find us on
Website: www.sta.uwi.edu/fst/lifesciences/uwi-zoology-museum<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sta.uwi.edu_fst_lifesciences_uwi-2Dzoology-2Dmuseum&d=DwMD-g&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=UKkvshUmkFKgXIgWb06LnWOus6cTsvwEGL6L4R0PUxQ&s=6cvr4AeQ-A3OABL4MvAgycTiEccDVJO_-b96xXzwVAI&e=>
Facebook: www.facebook.com/uwizoologymuseum<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_uwizoologymuseum&d=DwMD-g&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=UKkvshUmkFKgXIgWb06LnWOus6cTsvwEGL6L4R0PUxQ&s=3Kj_0ms32zS8w8_YI8n1mJWaklVj175xxnQEP2gAIvQ&e=>

CONFIDENTIALITY: This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged information. Any duplication, copying, distribution, dissemination, transmission, disclosure or use in any manner of this email (including any attachments) without the authorisation of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email (including any attachments) in error, please notify the sender and delete this email (including any attachments) from your system. Thank you.

_______________________________________________

Nhcoll-l mailing list

Nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:Nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>

http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l

_______________________________________________

NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of

Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose

mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of

natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to

society. See https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=3pkoBiUoOedbxGac3YIyRaXR2Q-fwBfdz27fZEyEZMY&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=DwMD-g&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=UKkvshUmkFKgXIgWb06LnWOus6cTsvwEGL6L4R0PUxQ&s=tbJfY6zYFeY_R-luGVlNmokcwaP-JIL1y2F_6pkdOpk&e=> for membership information.

Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.

--

Dirk Neumann

Tel: 089 / 8107-111

Fax: 089 / 8107-300

email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de

Postanschrift:

Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns

Zoologische Staatssammlung München

Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage

Münchhausenstr. 21

81247 München

Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=8uZCRg0XgK2yO2xrKhHjwFBkSgmXYimFsK3LTrNMRk4&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMD-g&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=UKkvshUmkFKgXIgWb06LnWOus6cTsvwEGL6L4R0PUxQ&s=Polyai12kT_Tg_Lw2Qsm4bqfdO44iJQzw6JcNmadY5U&e=>

---------

Dirk Neumann

Tel: +49-89-8107-111

Fax: +49-89-8107-300

email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de

postal address:

Bavarian Natural History Collections

The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology

Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage

Muenchhausenstr. 21

81247 Munich (Germany)

Visit our section at:

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=8uZCRg0XgK2yO2xrKhHjwFBkSgmXYimFsK3LTrNMRk4&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMD-g&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=UKkvshUmkFKgXIgWb06LnWOus6cTsvwEGL6L4R0PUxQ&s=Polyai12kT_Tg_Lw2Qsm4bqfdO44iJQzw6JcNmadY5U&e=>

--

Dirk Neumann

Tel: 089 / 8107-111

Fax: 089 / 8107-300

email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de

Postanschrift:

Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns

Zoologische Staatssammlung München

Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage

Münchhausenstr. 21

81247 München

Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=8uZCRg0XgK2yO2xrKhHjwFBkSgmXYimFsK3LTrNMRk4&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=qAP2rtYMJLzKSPFPIsks3kzlRsbzV5-ACDuk3UuVdy8&s=ODmajyJrWa7JwXaSsHfYyOBZONs2KA9FkYvaLdLAJUk&e=>

---------

Dirk Neumann

Tel: +49-89-8107-111

Fax: +49-89-8107-300

email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de

postal address:

Bavarian Natural History Collections

The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology

Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage

Muenchhausenstr. 21

81247 Munich (Germany)

Visit our section at:

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwIFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Q9rEhZseM1ndy_i8ra3rNRhAJfiR44CVERc17QQS1MA&s=8uZCRg0XgK2yO2xrKhHjwFBkSgmXYimFsK3LTrNMRk4&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=qAP2rtYMJLzKSPFPIsks3kzlRsbzV5-ACDuk3UuVdy8&s=ODmajyJrWa7JwXaSsHfYyOBZONs2KA9FkYvaLdLAJUk&e=>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/pipermail/nhcoll-l/attachments/20180301/f4dc3afa/attachment.html 