[Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

Fri Nov 20 10:56:54 EST 2020

How much to tighten PPE lids is an issue. Most of us old-timers do it by feel, but the fact is you can over-tighten them. If that happens, the skirt of the lid will splay at the point where its internal spiral thread is making tightest contact with the external spiral thread on the glass. PPE won't split, but the pressure loading across the sealing face will be uneven.
To get consistent tightening you could use a torque wrench with adaptors for different lid diameters. Rather than a big ½" drive one, try to find a smaller one with a 3/8" or ¼" drive and preferably electronic rather than the cheaper "beam-deflection" type. The adaptors could just be regular cap-type oil-filter extractors, or a one-size-fits-all strap wrench that has a square hole for the torque wrench.

Paul Callomon MSc
Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates
________________________________
Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, Philadelphia
1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia PA 19103-1195, USA
prc44 at drexel.edu<mailto:prc44 at drexel.edu> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 215-299-1170

From: Lazo-Wasem, Eric <eric.lazo-wasem at yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 10:24 AM
To: Rob Robins <rhrobins at flmnh.ufl.edu>; Callomon,Paul <prc44 at drexel.edu>; Neisskenwirth, Fabian <Fabian.Neisskenwirth at ruhrmuseum.de>; 'neumann at snsb.de' <neumann at snsb.de>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

External.
I agree with the notion that bail lids are almost fool proof, although the shoulder design interferes somewhat if you are nesting vials inside.

The standard "Ball" red gaskets will fail in contact with alcohol over time; we replaced ours with "Buna-N" gaskets (neoprene, so long ago I forget), a white gasket that does not compress as much and does not deteriorate.  However, the red gaskets actually fuse to the glass with formaldehyde.  We recently moved many thousands of plankton and sargassum samples stored in formaldehyde with Bail jars and the original red gaskets (>60 years) and they were so well sealed, we could wash the jars in a sink and not contaminate the internal contents with water.

Over 15 years ago we replaced all our phenolic "Bakelite" lids (high failure rate) and bought new jars with  PPE lids fit with a non-paper liner (maybe what Paul mentioned).  If tightened correctly, they do not allow evaporation.  Ours are very stable, when we see a problem, it can be correctly predicted that the lid was put on too loose; always traceable to someone going in to the jar and not replacing the lid tightly.

Eric A. Lazo-Wasem, Senior Collections Manager

Division of Invertebrate Zoology

Peabody Museum of Natural History

Yale University

170 Whitney Avenue

New Haven, CT 06520

________________________________
From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> on behalf of Rob Robins <rhrobins at flmnh.ufl.edu<mailto:rhrobins at flmnh.ufl.edu>>
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:54 AM
To: Callomon,Paul <prc44 at drexel.edu<mailto:prc44 at drexel.edu>>; Neisskenwirth, Fabian <Fabian.Neisskenwirth at ruhrmuseum.de<mailto:Fabian.Neisskenwirth at ruhrmuseum.de>>; 'neumann at snsb.de' <neumann at snsb.de<mailto:neumann at snsb.de>>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu> <nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

Hi Folks,

Would like to contribute an observation on the bail top jars - I agree that the seals are excellent at resisting evaporation, with a major caveat: the gaskets deteriorate (at least gaskets of the type that came to us via a large relinquished collection in the 1980s).

See image 1.

Nearly all bail tops in our care require a levering tool to break the seal between glass and gasket (>90%), such as a stout short-bladed paint scraper. Using the tool safely takes knowhow and dexterity (brute force will work but with the attendant risk of impaling one's hand with the tool - and thus is strongly cautioned against).

See image 2.

Following jar opening, old gaskets on these old bail tops at UF are unredeemable (99% of the time). Exposed parts of the gasket are usually brittle and flake away, while the gasket that comprised the seal that lasted decades may be fully or partly molded to the jar - totally affixed. This latter circumstance renders the jar worthless, as no replacement gasket can be placed upon such an irregular surface.

See images 3 and 4.

For these reasons and others, whenever we work with bail top specimen lots, we replace the jars with screw top containers -- usually at a space savings (note Paul's comment about a limited offering of rather large sizes).

If the above situation is only avoided with regular replacement of gaskets - that needs to be considered as ongoing maintenance costs associated with the use of this jar type.

But perhaps local conditions have not always been ideal and thus the gaskets degraded more rapidly than they do under ideal conditions. If so, that also should be considered by those collections whose facilities can't always meet optimal conditions.

It could also be our gaskets are of an inferior material, since improved upon or replaced by manufacturers of these containers systems.

I am unclear on these points and look forward to learning more.

Best wishes,

Rob

Robert H. Robins

Collection Manager

Division of Ichthyology

[FLMNH Fishes logo email small]

Florida Museum of Natural History

1659 Museum Rd.

Gainesville, FL 32611-7800

Office: (352) 273-1957

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From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> On Behalf Of Callomon,Paul
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 8:00 AM
To: Neisskenwirth, Fabian <Fabian.Neisskenwirth at ruhrmuseum.de<mailto:Fabian.Neisskenwirth at ruhrmuseum.de>>; 'neumann at snsb.de' <neumann at snsb.de<mailto:neumann at snsb.de>>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

[External Email]

We recently overhauled our 50,000-jar alcohol collection for the first time in 50 years. We found the following things for lids on screw-top jars:

·         Steel lids are problematic. Ours were painted black on the outside and cadmium-plated inside with solid plastic seals. The seals had almost all held, but the lids themselves had pinpoint rusting from the inside due to condensation. If those pinpoints get through the metal, the lid is more likely to fail. We've replaced them all.

·         PPE lids with either solid PPE disks or F217 liners are both fine. We started using them in the 1980s (PPE disks) and 1990s (F217) and both have lasted well, with a failure rate below 1%

·         Phenolic lids with coneseal liners - very good. Bakelite and phenolic lids with food-grade-paper (coated or foil-laminated card) liners - high failure rate. We replaced them all.

·         Note that there is a difference between pure phenolic resin and Bakelite. The latter has wood dust mixed with the resin, and always fails over time, often suddenly and completely. You can usually tell the difference by the gloss, color and size; Bakelite is not as black or as glossy as phenolic. If it's over 50 mm in diameter it's likely to be Bakelite.

·         However, as Dirk points out, although phenolic resin is fine with ethanol it can be affected by formaldehyde. We have also found that phenolic will leach dark color into alcohol if it is immersed for more than a year, so it's clearly not entirely stable to ethanol either.

Finally, though they are not available in small sizes the most stable and economical jars in our collection are bale jars with galvanized steel bale clips and either natural rubber, butyl or neoprene gaskets (e. g. "Ball"-brand jars). These effectively never fail.

Paul Callomon MSc
Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates

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Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, Philadelphia

1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia PA 19103-1195, USA
prc44 at drexel.edu<mailto:prc44 at drexel.edu> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 215-299-1170

From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> On Behalf Of Neisskenwirth, Fabian
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 4:09 AM
To: 'neumann at snsb.de' <neumann at snsb.de<mailto:neumann at snsb.de>>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

External.

Hey there,

I totally agree with Dirks statement. Glass lids are much more stable than any other kind of material used in fluid collections.

I would like to share my experience with a sort of new jar type from Duran® (former Schott). They have a product line called "GLS 80" jars. It has a mouth opening of 80 mm, but the size varies from 500ml to 25000 ml. The mouth opening works very well for smaller specimens.

The jars are made of borosilicate and sold at an affordable price, because they are made for the pharma industry. This is why they also have "filling marks", which esthetically speaking is not so nice, but it still fulfills the purpose of the jar. One of the sales agents of DWK (Duran Group), offered me that at a certain amount of jars, there could be a batch (around 1000 jars) made without "filling marks".

There is a new type of lid for this jars too, made of Polysulfone (PSU) with a PTFE coated silicone liner.

The Duran Group works worldwide, so if you have any questions regarding this contact Eric Lehnen (eric.lehnen at dwk.com<mailto:eric.lehnen at dwk.com>). He knows about the use of the jars for collections purpose.

This seems to be a very good improvement to move away from poor quality "sausage jars" with fast degrading lids.

I have made a one year aging test with three jars with ethanol 70% mixed with a buffered formaldehyde solution 3,4% (9:1) and have seen no negative reactions on the lids. But this still should be tested more thoroughly.

Hope this helps you out!

--

Fabian Neisskenwirth

Zoologischer Präparator

MA Student Restaurierung und Konservierung von Kulturgut

+49 (0) 201 24681 470

Stiftung Ruhr Museum

Fritz-Schupp-Allee 15

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Von: Nhcoll-l [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] Im Auftrag von Dirk Neumann
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2020 09:10
An: nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Betreff: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

Hi Tonya & Lennart,

I guess there are several layers to unfold here:

Foamed liners - like the F217 liners you mention - consist of a foamed cell structure which - if the lid is screwed down tight - is compressed again the neck of the jar. This outs the cells under pressure and closed cells would withstand this tension better then open cell structures. It is hard to tell if the F217 liners you mention has open or closed cells, which gas is used for filling of the foam structure, etc. Even if the F217 liners would have the right composition, right thickness, closed cells - it still a is compressible gasket which has a limited life span.

To produce a good closure, you would further need to consider the threads on the jar (continuous or not), the composition of the lid itself (the best liner does not help if the plastic used for the lid itself is of poor quality, etc. Most important seems to me that sizes of such lids are standardised (rather then customised for specific jars), so that they can easily be replaced if they fail. This is one of the huge problems many collections with Copehagen jars now face after plastic lids reached the end of their life span, sized where customised, company went out of production: it is virtually impossible to replace these lids - which causes huge problems in many collections.

It seems that F217 and PTFE liners are often used as inlays for Phenolic caps (Bakelite) - which is a no-go in fluid collections because this sort of thermoset plastics is easily degraded by residual formaldehyde escaping from formaldehyde preserved specimens, even if they have been transferred in to alcohol. As said: the best liner is worthless if the plastic lid itself is unsuited.

In general, plastic lids are not a good oxygen barrier - this is also worth remembering, especially if specimens inside such jars release a lot of fats or oils.

Rather then concentrating on specific lids I would look into jars that are designed for the pharmaceutical sector. Here, both the jar (soda-lime glass) and the lid are expected (and usually tested) to withstand a wide range of chemicals AND to provide a good barrier against oxygen.

There are different suppliers of such jars, the disadvantage of the wide mouth jars however is that the largest opening in these jars is 65 mm. So a good option for for 100 - 1000 ml jars, but not for larger jars.  Stölzle (who also produce high quality borosilicate stoppered jars) is a possible source for such jars, but there are many others as well: https://pharma.stoelzle.com/en/product_category/weithalsglaser/<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fpharma.stoelzle.com-252Fen-252Fproduct-5Fcategory-252Fweithalsglaser-252F-26data-3D04-257C01-257Cprc44-2540drexel.edu-257C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f-257C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6-257C0-257C1-257C637414601473730392-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C2000-26sdata-3DhC1jgMeeoV9txtIntv14ALQRAqC1-252Fcf6qs2jE-252FjX9i8-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMFAw%26c%3DsJ6xIWYx-zLMB3EPkvcnVg%26r%3DMCIx6IevDpZN7oPx8SAIb6_HvqHJFo2if2SZHHR4kiQ%26m%3Dl9JlcM7_nU8aLp6602DXtUY6Mz33LJxiR7NZEcW-cPU%26s%3D890QTyfhF5KDssZAA7H2Sh9ed85K0vheeediMQ3eOPE%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C21f7d027dd404be6656b08d88d6850a8%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C0%7C637414826465653182%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Y74R%2F%2Bm1zQjvEEFu7A%2B7i%2BBY%2Fw28lY11qsy3Dj%2BEwUU%3D&reserved=0>

So as mostly no clear cut answer, but hopefully one that is useful.

All the best

Dirk

Am 20.11.2020 um 00:29 schrieb Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace):

Hi all,

I know I've asked about this before, but may I please clarify again.... Does anyone have preference regarding PTFE (e.g. Teflon, I believe) lid liners vs F217 liners, which are layered polyethylene (as far as I understand). Can anyone give me advice as to what would be better as a lid liner for specimens kept in 70-90% EtOH? Advice very appreciated!

Cheers,

Tonya

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Dr Tonya Haff

Collections Manager

Australian National Wildlife Collection

National Research Collections Australia, CSIRO

Canberra, Australia

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(+61) 0419 569 109 (mobile)

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---------

Dirk Neumann

Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
neumann(a)snsb.de

postal address:

Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
Muenchhausenstr. 21
81247 Munich (Germany)

Visit our section at:
http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/<https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.zsm.mwn.de-252Fsektion-252Fichthyologie-2Dhome-252F-26data-3D04-257C01-257Cprc44-2540drexel.edu-257C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f-257C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6-257C0-257C1-257C637414601473750384-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C2000-26sdata-3D6ABooal-252F6oIEOTFS6uN3Qo99cxASgLMr6WkPGEil1Zc-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMFAw%26c%3DsJ6xIWYx-zLMB3EPkvcnVg%26r%3DMCIx6IevDpZN7oPx8SAIb6_HvqHJFo2if2SZHHR4kiQ%26m%3Dl9JlcM7_nU8aLp6602DXtUY6Mz33LJxiR7NZEcW-cPU%26s%3D_RFy9Vh_QRqcCuRbUpRddcw7pvlnfcHrp-v8-X7lu5U%26e%3D&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C21f7d027dd404be6656b08d88d6850a8%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C0%7C637414826465683162%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iI6pPJQ5Uzs4zWzfi1R4YH8LqQ6kUhEfsiF1%2FBGeALo%3D&reserved=0>
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