[Nhcoll-l] Wanted: producer of square "museum" glas for exhibitions
Dirk Neumann
d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de
Tue Nov 1 06:36:27 EDT 2022
... vaseline soft white usually starts running earlier and compromised seal often are hard to detect.
With best wishes
Dirk
Am 01.11.2022 um 11:27 schrieb Simon Moore:
Thanks Dirk,
Useful to see the trickly marks where the Alsirol seals have become compromised (as you say, like the Truss administration!)
I think that they still use a lower melting/congealing point paraffin wax for sealing jars in the Netherlands for sealing these types of jars.
With all good wishes, Simon
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
www.natural-history-conservation.com<http://www.natural-history-conservation.com>
On 1 Nov 2022, at 09:51, Dirk Neumann <d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de><mailto:d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de> wrote:
Hi Simon,
it is exactly as you describe it; if you have to manage a larger collection of these jars, this is constant fun and proofs to be a high cost-factor. When still in Munch, we started to phase them out and replaced them with wide borosilicate cylinders last year after using them for +10 years.
Especially if you want to put jars in the exhibition space with even more frequent and higher temperature and humidity shifts, this is definitely nothing you want. The image shows compromised vacuum-joint grease seals (Alsirol) after the seal got compromised from water condensing at the lid because of repeated temperature shifts during renovation works in the collection. The good thing with Alsirol is that you immediately notice that the seal is compromised if the colour changes to white (from translucent/clear).
And of course prices will drop again, absolutely agree with you on this one as well! We only need to be patient. They start to trickle, as everything else trickles, including the last UK government.
With best wishes
Dirk
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Am 01.11.2022 um 09:38 schrieb Simon Moore:
Thanks Dirk,
That is a most useful explanation! I have seen flower vases made according to these specifications about 30 years ago except, as you say, the corners taper down to 1mm thickness which is impractical as it leads to an unstable and leaky seal! So you’re saying that the Neubert ones are no good. Well, hopefully this political situation won’t be permanent and the prices may reduce if gas comes down in price (ha-ha!)!
With all good wishes, Simon
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
www.natural-history-conservation.com<http://www.natural-history-conservation.com>
On 1 Nov 2022, at 07:34, Dirk Neumann <d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de><mailto:d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de>
wrote:
Hi Simon (and Fabian),
teaming up for placing orders this is what we usually do with orders placed at Stölzle, because they start producing only if the entire order (200 jars) is sold right after production - they no longer but them on stock.
For the rectangular tanks Fabian referred to in his Neubert-Glas link, this likely refers to a glass producer in the Czech Republic. The container walls towards to edges tend to be very thin (sometimes less then 1mm), and usually these tanks also do not have a plan surface grinding. If you ask a company to do this, you loose further material making it more difficult to seal the container (even if you apply a permanent seal).
The soda-lime glassware that you can buy at retailers such as depot or others is of low quality. This applies for cylinders and rectangular containers. We once bought some tall glass flower vases (80x25 cm), but the glass has a very high, tinny sound. Leaching of the surface was observable after few years.
For current prices, Simon, they dramatically climbed after the gas shortage in Europe after the Russian invasion. The prices for the large cylinders (30x30 cm) I mentioned earlier jumped from 360, -Eur to 520,- last year, and prices climbed further by 15-20%.
Lessons learnt over the past years however tell, that high quality glassware considerably reduces staff time for maintenance and monitoring AND keeps the specimen save in the long run. Compromises usually have a shorter life span, and required replacements usually do not get cheaper over the years, especially if you need large/tall jars.
With best wishes
Dirk
Am 31.10.2022 um 11:14 schrieb Simon Moore:
Many thanks Fabian and I suspected as much. Sometimes museums have to form a p[urchasing syndicate with others to buy large numbers but the accountants find it too complicated!
With all good wishes, Simon
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
www.natural-history-conservation.com<http://www.natural-history-conservation.com>
On 31 Oct 2022, at 09:58, Fabian Neisskenwirth <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de><mailto:info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>
wrote:
Dear Simon,
yes, the lid overlaps the edge. I think that if one is paying more that 100 Euros for a Jar, this should not happen. But since they at least offer the jars, its something to live with and since they are normal sodalime floatglass plates it can be grinded off very easely.
And the price is just because of the small demand. DWK sells their "normal" labglass product for very good prices, but these are made in gigantic masses, so they can take less price for them. The only way of getting lower prices in in asking for a very big load of jars, this will push down the price. But I'm talking about thousands of jars at least. So in the end it doesn't mater if its DWK, Stoelzle, SIMAX or whatever big Glassfactory. They will all do it, since its technically possible, but they will make a mold, and use specific made tools, so they need a mass of production that covers the costs of making these, then the price is lower.
All the best,
Am 31.10.22 um 10:47 schrieb Simon Moore:
Many thanks for that update Fabian! The DWK jars are just unaffordable now for most museums so it’s good to know that there are other and cheaper suppliers. I didn’t understand what you meant by' the lid defers bit from the jar’ - slightly overlaps the edge of the jar?
I’m glad to see that these jars are being made again and hopefully the DWK range will come down to a more realistic level!
With all good wishes, Simon
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,
www.natural-history-conservation.com<http://www.natural-history-conservation.com>
On 31 Oct 2022, at 09:12, Fabian Neisskenwirth <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de><mailto:info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>
wrote:
Dear Mikkel,
Dirk is almost correct about the battery jars. Though they are not made or sold anymore as battery jars, if you are lucky you can find some at some local house furnishing store. I found some very nice rectangular jars at "Dille & Kamille" a few weeks back in Belgium while i was there for holidays. Its a huge dutch franchise, so maybe they have some store in Denmark as well. But its probable that other stores of this sort run this kind of jars as well. For me it was great because they sold the jars as retail for only 2 Euros each. Its not the best jar, since it has some strong curves made by the uneven melted glass, since these jars are molded in a cast. But this goes for all battery jars, even the new ones sold by DWK (Schott was bought by Duran long time ago and now Duran runs under the name DWK, since they joined with Wheaton and Kimble, other glassfactories).
Here are the ones form Duran or DWK:
https://www.dwk.com/duran-museum-jar-with-ground-glass-plate
They are pretty expensive, and the Lid is not very nice, since it defers a bit from the jar, so you should grind down the edges. But they are made of borosilicate, so excelent glass quality (not the lid!). Prices go between 70-150 Euro per jar.
There are two German suppliers that sell some square sodalime jars as well (around 20-50 Euro each):
-
https://www.assistent.eu/en/product/specimen-jars-museum-jars-made-of-clear-glass-with-ground-cover-plate/
-
https://www.neubert-glas.de/laborglas/onlineshop/katalog.php?KATfrom=suche&SearchText=pr%E4parat&struc=1_995727484085_1030342896125_1005301727684_1515949502601&kat=1023362157218&PHPSESSID=1effb50f3b77f3e7035b5480d4f6ce4b
(german only.. I suggest you call them for more information)
The problem and this goes as well for the borosilicate and the cheap house furnishing store jars, is that the sizes are very limited. So usually very small and nothing compared with the pretty big sizes you showed in the picture. These are almost impossible to get new.
So there are actually just 2 solutions if you insist in big sized square jars: One is to ask at some lab-glassblower factory. There a big jar can costs arround 500-700 Euros each. I just did some calculating for a project I'm working on. So they do exist! The jars are welded of plain borosilicate glassplates, so there is no unevenness as in the molded jars. The welding in the corner can be seen though, its less smooth as in the battery jars. But not really a problem. Its just the immense costs.
The other way is to ask at other nat. hist. institutions. Some have a big "stash" of old jars that may be sold or exchanged for a favor or whatever. Maybe you are lucky and they will just donate them. It's they only thing i can think of that excludes a very big investment. Besides looking for this jars in local second-hand internet sites. Sometimes there you are lucky too.
If you need more info about Jars (cylindical too) just contact me directly. I have been dealing with this topic for a long time and have made some good contacts, even within DWK.
All the best in the search!
Am 28.10.22 um 14:53 schrieb Dirk Neumann:
Dear Mikkel,
the historic battery jars are no longer produced; alternatively you can use Schott Borosilicate tubes which can be customised in diameter and length (5 cm to 35 cm and up to 2.0 tall). You might have seen the tall wide jar I posted a few days back. But for the collection in Munich they produced tall wide cyclinders (25 cm x 1,0 m) for the Australian lungfishes and Arapaima
These glass cylinders have less tension within the glass and are more stable against temperature and humidity shifts (the battery jars can crack if the temperature e.g. drops within 2-3 days to below 14°C).
One producer is Gaßner Glastechnik in Munich; I have been working with them for many years.
You can also check directly with Schott; there is a catalogue, but this is not openly available. But they still produce specimen jars.
The also did some rectangular containers, but smaller ones (approx. 20 cm high and wide).
The other source might be Stölzle Oberglas in Vienna, but usually they only start production if the order is above 200 containers (in the past museums teamed up for orders).
Hope this helps
Dirk
Am 28.10.2022 um 14:27 schrieb Mikkel Høegh Post:
Hi
Here at the Natural History Museum of Denmark we are preparing new exhibitions opening 2025. We need additional square museum glass for wet specimen display -we have a bunch (an example below), but need more sizes. I wonder if any (preferable European) company produce such?
Best regards,
Mikkel Høegh Post
Samlingsmedarbejder, konservator cand.scient.
Statens Naturhistoriske Museum
Zoologisk Museum
Universitetsparken 15
2100 Kbh.Ø
MOB 60 74 10 25
mhpost at snm.ku.dk<mailto:mhpost at snm.ku.dk>
Profil
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NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of
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mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
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NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
society. See
http://www.spnhc.org
for membership information.
Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.
--
****
Dirk Neumann
Collection Manager, Hamburg
Postal address:
Museum of Nature Hamburg
Leibniz Institute for the Analysis
of Biodiversity Change
Dirk Neumann
Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3
20146 Hamburg
+49 40 238 317 – 628
d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de<mailto:d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de>
www.leibniz-lib.de<http://www.leibniz-lib.de>
--
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst
--
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst
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natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
society. See
http://www.spnhc.org
for membership information.
Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.
--
****
Dirk Neumann
Collection Manager, Hamburg
Postal address:
Museum of Nature Hamburg
Leibniz Institute for the Analysis
of Biodiversity Change
Dirk Neumann
Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3
20146 Hamburg
+49 40 238 317 – 628
d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de<mailto:d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de>
www.leibniz-lib.de<http://www.leibniz-lib.de>
--
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst
--
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst
--
****
Dirk Neumann
Collection Manager, Hamburg
Postal address:
Museum of Nature Hamburg
Leibniz Institute for the Analysis
of Biodiversity Change
Dirk Neumann
Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3
20146 Hamburg
+49 40 238 317 – 628
d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de<mailto:d.neumann at leibniz-lib.de>
www.leibniz-lib.de<imap://dneumann@webmail.leibniz-lib.de:993/fetch%3EUID%3E/INBOX/Privat/www.leibniz-lib.de>
--
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst
--
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst
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