<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">Thanks, Carrie, for this valuable info. Just a couple of
observations:<br>
<br>
1. As all agreed at that 2008 summit I wrote about, in museum
collection terms, 25-30 years is not long-term. In people terms,
yes, but in terms of the collection itself, it is not. <br>
2. Your repository agreement seems to be unusual, especially
with regard to loans and destructive sampling. <br>
3. The problem with the repository agreement generally is that
regardless of length, it ultimately allows the removal and
relocation of specimens or entire collections without any say on
the part of the museum. One of the key areas of discussion at
the 2008 summit is that the location of a specimen is based on
the underlying reason for its collection and on the scientific
purpose for collections generally. Mere physical proximity to a
given park, or the desire to put all specimens from a given park
in one location would result in reduction of the integrity of
the collection for which it was originally collected. So the
most obvious - a series intended to examine clinal variation
will have specimens from locations along the cline, some of
which may have been collected from one or more parks. If someone
now decides that they want all specimens collected from those
parks to be in one location, then these series are disrupted.
Conversely, if the purpose of the collecting was to document the
biodiversity of the park, then removal of one or more specimens
for the purpose, say (I am obviously making this up) of creating
a collection of all birds found in national parks will undermine
the integrity of the collection that documented the biodiversity
of the park. <br>
4. The designation of institutions as federal repositories is
part of what has fueled this worry I described. The rumors have
been circulating for years that the NPS was going to either
build its own warehouses - and yes, I use that term deliberately
- or designate certain museums in various regions of the country
- and consolidate the specimens collected on units of public
land managed by the National Park Service - in those centers. <br>
5. I can't speak to your institution's policies or differences
between geology and biological collections, but most biological
collections actually prohibit long-term or even indefinite
loans. Call it a repository agreement, but it's really a
long-term loan. <br>
<br>
Generally, the repository agreements place a fairly stiff burden
on the museums to provide a substantial service but offer no
remuneration for those services. Yes, remuneration is clearly
NOT the primary purpose of housing and curating a collection,
but the point is that acting as a repository is limiting in
various ways. Starting with integration of the specimens. If you
may have to give it all back in X years, are you going to
integrate hundreds or thousands of specimens into your
collections or are you going to keep it segregated? <br>
<br>
I didn't receive Peter's email from yesterday, but this issue of
NPS numbers has been part of the discussion from the beginning
and it would be very burdensome for most collections to go back
and attach a second label to each of the specimens and then
record that second number. It also flies in the face of current
practice, which is to assign unique identifiers (can of worms, I
know). There are simpler ways to deal with this than to add
labels/tags and new numbers. Add a field in the permanent record
that identifies the item as having been collected in a NP. <br>
<br>
Yes, over the years, the park-level people have been very
reasonable, even if their practices were not conforming to NPS
policy. If I had a dime for every time I've been told "the
manager at Park X told us not to worry about it, as far as he
was concerned, we own it and they will never ask for it back and
we can do whatever we want with it." Some of you may remember
that back when I was with AIBS, I did a survey on this - 2002.
Yes, 10 years ago. I will try to dig up the results, but as best
I can recall, about 1/2 the respondents were surprised to learn
that there was even an issue, because the manager at the park
where they worked told them something to this effect. <br>
<br>
Ellen<br>
</font>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ellen Paul
Executive Director
The Ornithological Council
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a>
"Providing Scientific Information about Birds<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET">"
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET"</a>
</pre>
On 11/8/12 10:30 AM, Carrie Eaton wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:509BD030.5050703@geology.wisc.edu" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I'm sure this has probably been
addressed by a few people already, but our museum has been
working rather closely with the Park Service on a cataloging
project for almost 3 years now. I had really thought that a lot
of this "big push" came as a result of the new 2009 Omnibus
Public Land Management Act, which includes the new
Paleontological Resources Act (hence the geology focus for us).
Parks that lacked the appropriate records for the permits they
had on file were *strongly* encouraged to track those specimens
down and obtain those records. From what I've been told by the
NPS folks I work with, the parks had to identify larger
collections that needed updating or cataloging and hit those
first. If you have federal material and haven't been contacted
it could be because your objects are already very well
cataloged, you do not have as many, or you are just further down
on their already very long list.<br>
<br>
We were able to negotiate for a long term repository agreement
that gives us control over loaning and the determinations on
destructive sampling, but some of that may have been due to the
fact that our repository already had federal repository status
and we have several collections from a few other parks and
monuments, as well as verts from BLM land.<br>
<br>
I agree that the indefinite loan or long term (25-30 year)
repository agreement is the way to go. It is my understanding
that they are hoping to get all of the NPS specimens on to
agreements of this type and get everything into their national
catalog. I saw a great presentation a few years back by Greg
McDonald, the senior curator of natural history, on the future
partnerships between the NPS and collection managers at the 2010
Fossil Prep and Collections Symposium. A few colleagues and I
are hoping to also do a presentation or panel at next year's AMM
meeting in Madison, WI on this very topic. It could also be
really beneficial to have someone from the NPS (like Greg) come
and speak at a future SPNHC or AAM meeting to clarify the
questions a lot of people have.<br>
<br>
If anyone wants to contact me directly to ask about the details
of our project, or how we've managed our relationship with the
NPS over the past year or two - please feel free!<br>
all the best,<br>
Carrie<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<address><font face="Georgia"><i><b>Carrie Eaton</b></i></font></address>
<address><font face="Georgia"><i><b>Curator, UW Geology Museum</b></i></font></address>
<address><font face="Georgia"><i>1215 W. Dayton Street</i></font></address>
<address><font face="Georgia"><i>Madison, WI 53706</i></font></address>
<address><font face="Georgia"><i>(608) 262.4912</i></font></address>
<address><b><font color="#3333ff" face="Georgia"><i>carrie@geology.wisc.edu</i></font></b></address>
</div>
<br>
<br>
On 11/7/2012 8:00 PM, Peter T Oboyski wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAB3NqE7fsixRRQsur4He8ahR_0OWLVLXHAVG3HyUuGC2XLNcfw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Having collected on National Parks myself, and
responding (as collections manager) to queries from NPS
regarding our insect collections, the NPS staff that I have
spoken with seem content to have a list of specimens with our
unique identifiers. They are considered to be on indefinite loan
to our museum (no paperwork filed on my part), though still the
property of NPS. I was able to dissuade them from insisting on
NPS numbers on every specimen since they already have our unique
identifiers. As usual, the individual staff are quite reasonable
and understanding and can find ways to work within the
bureaucracy of their institution. I agree that a "repository
agreement" or "indefinite loan" is more in-line with
accessioning language than "custodianship", but regardless of
the name the authority of the museum holding the materials
should be clearly spelled out in the agreement. That is, does
the holding institution have the authority to (sub)loan
specimens, grant dissections and DNA extraction, etc?<br>
<br>
I thought depositing of collected specimens was one of the
questions on the NPS permit application. Why are they asking for
a loan agreement? Or is this for legacy specimens collected
before the current permit application process?<br>
<br>
Pete<br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Peter T Oboyski, PhD<br>
Collections Manager & Senior Museum Scientist<br>
Essig Museum of Entomology<br>
1170 Valley Life Science Building<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
<br>
mailing address:<br>
1101 VLSB, #4780<br>
Berkeley, CA 94720<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nature.berkeley.edu/%7Epoboyski/" target="_blank">http://nature.berkeley.edu/~poboyski/</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://essig.berkeley.edu"
target="_blank">http://essig.berkeley.edu</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:essig.museum@gmail.com"
target="_blank">essig.museum@gmail.com</a><br>
510.643.0804 (work phone)<br>
510.847.0360 (cell phone)<br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:09 PM,
Bentley, Andrew Charles <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:abentley@ku.edu"
target="_blank">abentley@ku.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>Ellen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why are they just contacting bird collections and
not all collections from Federal lands – fish, herps
etc.? Or are they? I have not been contacted.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We were however contacted some time ago and I
know there was a lot of discussion at the time of
entering into a "repository agreement" (I think this
term is much better than custodianship as this is
more accepted terminology in natural history
collections) with NPS for all their material. The
idea of renumbering or relabeling collections with
NPS numbers as well as them making stipulations
concerning the loaning of specimens to third parties
was dropped after much backlash from the collections
community. I just did a quick search for any emails
regarding this but came up empty handed. I will
keep looking to see if I can find anything.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andy</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU"> A : A
: A :<br>
}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°><br>
V V V<br>
Andy Bentley<br>
Ichthyology Collection Manager<br>
University of Kansas<br>
Biodiversity Institute</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU"> Dyche Hall<br>
1345 Jayhawk Boulevard<br>
Lawrence, KS, 66045-7561<br>
USA<br>
<br>
Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28785%29%20864-3863"
value="+17858643863" target="_blank">(785)
864-3863</a><br>
Fax: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28785%29%20864-5335"
value="+17858645335" target="_blank">(785)
864-5335</a> <br>
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:abentley@ku.edu"
style="color:blue" target="_blank">abentley@ku.edu</a> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu/"
style="color:blue" target="_blank">http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU">SPNHC President-Elect</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.spnhc.org/"
style="color:blue" target="_blank">http://www.spnhc.org</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif"> <span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"
lang="EN-AU">
: : <br>
A : A : A :<br>
}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°><br>
V V V</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="border-right:medium
none;padding-right:0in;padding-left:0in;padding-top:3pt;text-align:left;font-size:11pt;border-bottom:medium
none;font-family:Calibri;border-top:#b5c4df 1pt
solid;padding-bottom:0in;border-left:medium none"> <span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ellen Paul
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net" target="_blank">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday,
November 7, 2012 4:04 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu"
target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu"
target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>Bulletin
Board for Bird Collections and Curators <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:AVECOL-L@LISTSERV.LSU.EDU"
target="_blank">AVECOL-L@LISTSERV.LSU.EDU</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[Nhcoll-l]
NPS asking for info on your collections?<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><font
face="Times New Roman,Times,serif">Some bird
collections have received communications from
one of the national parks asking for
verification of specimens in the collection
that were collected in that national park and
asking the museum to sign a loan agreement. <br>
<br>
Have any other collections received these
communications? If so, from which parks?<br>
<br>
You may want to hold off on signing the loan
agreements as we are continuing to pursue this
alternate "custodianship" agreement and have
been making real progress. If you sign the
loan agreement, you will be precluding
yourself from taking advantage of the
custodianship agreement which is a much better
option. At least until the loan agreement
expires, or unless the NPS later agrees to
terminate the loan agreement and replace it
with the custodianship agreement.<br>
<br>
I am guessing that this effort is being made
in response to the 2010 report of the
Department of the Interior Inspector General
that soundly condemned the NPS for having no
idea where anything is. I'd give you a link
but the DOI IG website is down while being
migrated to another site so it isn't available
at the moment. Obviously, it is a good thing
that the NPS is taking measures to find out
where things are, but it is worrisome that
some of you are being asked to sign loan
agreements without being told that there may
soon be another option. <br>
<br>
Ellen<br>
</font>
<pre cols="72">--
Ellen Paul
Executive Director
The Ornithological Council
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net" target="_blank">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a>
Phone <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28301%29%20986%208568" value="+13019868568" target="_blank">(301) 986 8568</a>
"Providing Scientific Information about Birds<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET" target="_blank">"
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET"</a></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span> </div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Nhcoll-l mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l"
target="_blank">http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Nhcoll-l mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l">http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Nhcoll-l mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l">http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>