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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi all,<br>
<br>
as this apparently a huge concern for US collections; why don't
you from a small (not more then 5, maximum 6 people) which draft a
response that could be circulated and further commented? The last
few days a lot of good and plausible information that could be
used for a official statement (e.g. SPNHC) was circulated &
discussed here, but in the end it gets lost in these posts without
responsible officials will ever notice.<br>
<br>
In Europe, we formed a small but active core group that supports
directors / representatives of our institutions to draft relevant
statements and actively support political lobbying including press
releases and official statements. <br>
<br>
Perhaps we have been discussing & complaining too long behind
our dusty drawers and cabinets? Jean-Marc Gagnon posted this nice
Nature-Article link. Budget cuts will continue and bureaucracy
will increase. Collections not only need to get "visible" and
"outreach" (digitisation & citizen science is nice, but
doesn't hire taxonomists). We need small active political lobby
groups with taxonomic background that are capable to address our
concerns and needs on various political levels.<br>
<br>
2 Persons copy & paste relevant statements and compile a first
draft for a constructive and positive statement (we fully
support.... but see problems in the following sectors). This would
be an enormous help for our already heavily loaded "officials" to
develop & push this further. Also, it might be worth to
consider that the legal secretaries and advisers inside Ministries
are largely lawyers, which define their world according to their
(sometimes obscure) ideas and understanding, which not necessarily
means that this is congruent with reality. Some of them, are happy
to receive practicable input that is suited to help them to make
their initiatives work in real life; at least this was our
experience when negotiating with governments officials and the EU
Commission. <br>
<br>
My 2 cents<br>
<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 20.02.2015 um 07:13 schrieb Kevin Winker:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOZ738wtYN23=k72ni8JU0109-CoKM=HaH9qRR_KyH7EWu3mmA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Federal regions vary, but in my experience the permitting
personnel are often overtasked, so reasonable requests to
reduce mutual burdens while upholding mutual obligations may
be accommodated. We do try to have positive working
relationships with these folks and with other agency
personnel, and this has served us well and I hope they would
on balance agree (though I do wish that permitting personnel
did not have such a high turnover rate). If we keep focused on
how best to legally collect and preserve specimens for science
and education, making them appropriately useful and
accessible, everyone wins. The less time we have to spend not
meeting those goals...well, that's better, too. I'm not
pointing at the present dialogue, but at the issue that began
it. This thread has helped me better understand the variation
that exists in our community.<br>
<br>
</div>
Best, K.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Brown,
Matthew A <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:matthewbrown@utexas.edu" target="_blank">matthewbrown@utexas.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Haha, well if that's so, then color me corrected. I'd
read this as permit for acquisition or disposal, not to
hold collections, but it does say possess. I guess my
first call tomorrow will be to the FWS permitting office
asking why they are insistent that a special purpose
permit is necessary for us to hold a few thousand
migratory birds in our collections. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Matt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On Feb 19, 2015, at 9:29 PM, Kevin Winker <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kevin.winker@alaska.edu" target="_blank">kevin.winker@alaska.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Nope. Sorry. This is incorrect: "The only
way for a museum collection to legally hold
non-eagle migratory bird specimens is with a
special purpose permit issued under § 21.27.
" See 50 CFR 21.12(b). I suspect most of the
bigger and more active bird collections in
the U.S. fall under this clause. Those who
aren't may wish to inquire whether they can.
Here are the details:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.gpo.gov_fdsys_pkg_CFR-2D2010-2Dtitle50-2Dvol6_xml_CFR-2D2010-2Dtitle50-2Dvol6-2Dsec21-2D12.xml&d=AwMFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=nNgs7Q4Cr1pnZXtJg54-yar0U5Zy4qKwMpod11uvphk&s=ouh9A5X1Fzko--AuIGNtlzeM9jGotX2CPZhLjRWB4Ws&e=" target="_blank">http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title50-vol6/xml/CFR-2010-title50-vol6-sec21-12.xml</a>
<br>
<br>
"(b)(1) State game departments, municipal
game farms or parks, and public museums,
public zoological parks, accredited
institutional members of the American
Association of Zoological Parks and
Aquariums (AAZPA) and public scientific or
educational institutions may acquire by gift
or purchase, possess, transport, and by gift
or sale dispose of lawfully acquired
migratory birds or their progeny, parts,
nests, or eggs without a permit: Provided,
That such birds may be acquired only from
persons authorized by this paragraph or by a
permit issued pursuant to this part to
possess and dispose of such birds, or from
Federal or State game authorities by the
gift of seized, condemned, r sick or injured
birds. Any such birds, acquired without a
permit, and any progeny therefrom may be
disposed of only to persons authorized by
this paragraph to acquire such birds without
a permit. Any person exercising a privilege
granted by this paragraph must keep accurate
records of such operations showing the
species and number of birds acquired,
possessed, and disposed of; the names and
addresses of the persons from whom such
birds were acquired or to whom such birds
were donated or sold; and the dates of such
transactions. Records shall be maintained or
reproducible in English on a calendar year
basis and shall be retained for a period of
five (5) years following the end of the
calendar year covered by the records."<br>
<br>
</div>
With this, I agree: "One can't just
cherry-pick parts of the laws that seem to
support your argument, you have to read the
relevant laws and regulations in their
totality." And that's why I won't be
expounding on issues related to paleo
collections. ;)<br>
<br>
</div>
Best, K.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at
5:12 PM, Brown, Matthew A <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:matthewbrown@utexas.edu" target="_blank">matthewbrown@utexas.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I'm just going to try this bird permit
explanation one last time, and then for the
sake of everybody's sanity and probable
feelings of disgust, I'll give up.<br>
<br>
I know that § 21.23 is the scientific
collecting permit. And it is only that. It
does not authorize the holding of museum
collections, in fact § 21.23(c)(1) disallows
the keeping of specimens unless the
scientific collector is issued a special
purpose permit under § 21.27. The only way
for a museum collection to legally hold
non-eagle migratory bird specimens is with a
special purpose permit issued under § 21.27.
Those permit conditions mandate annual
reporting. CFR 50, Chapter 1, Subchapter B,
Part 13, Subpart D § 13.48 requires
compliance by the museum with all
conditions, including the annual reporting
conditions. I have one of these special
purpose permits in my hand, right now,
looking at the section where it says it is
issued under the authority of § 13 and §
21.27, and that annual reporting is required
each year. Not just for five years, but each
year that the permit is valid. That means
that as long as an institution holds
migratory birds, annual Federal reporting is
required. One can't just cherry-pick parts
of the laws that seem to support your
argument, you have to read the relevant laws
and regulations in their totality.<br>
<br>
And we haven't even gotten to migratory
birds collected from Federal land yet. This
is just DOI USFWS regs for migratory birds
that aren't bald or golden eagles. Not for
paleo or cultural items, not even for all
natural history collections. Just non-eagle
migratory birds. Onerous? Maybe. But it is
also required by law, and what we signed up
for when we took positions of responsibility
in museums.<br>
<span><br>
<br>
<br>
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 2:43 PM, Ellen
Paul <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net" target="_blank">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> By the way, 21.27 is NOT "<br>
> "The special use permit required by §
21.27 for a museum collection"<br>
><br>
> 21.27 is just what it says it is:
Permits may be issued for special purpose
activities related to migratory birds,
their parts, nests, or eggs, which are
otherwise outside the scope of the
standard form permits of this part. A
special purpose permit for migratory bird
related activities not otherwise provided
for in this part may be issued to an
applicant who submits a written
application containing the general
information and certification required by
part 13 and makes a sufficient showing of
benefit to the migratory bird resource,
important research reasons, reasons of
human concern for individual birds, or
other compelling justification.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Scientific collecting is covered by
21.23. Therefore, 21.27 is inapplicable.<br>
><br>
> Ellen Paul<br>
> Executive Director<br>
> The Ornithological Council<br>
> Email:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net" target="_blank">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a><br>
><br>
> "Providing Scientific Information
about Birds<br>
> "<br>
</span>> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nmnh.si.edu_BIRDNET&d=AwIF-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=mPwcdPJvBXjWEXqjb6PW7yMBMoOsdQrXAC2_7oZUNPw&s=UsNXAFaBAHIerQGjpFN5dtwwwlq7Lc2IXJc4OcwJ9KA&e=" target="_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nmnh.si.edu_BIRDNET&d=AwIF-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=mPwcdPJvBXjWEXqjb6PW7yMBMoOsdQrXAC2_7oZUNPw&s=UsNXAFaBAHIerQGjpFN5dtwwwlq7Lc2IXJc4OcwJ9KA&e=</a>
"<br>
<span>><br>
> On 2/19/15 3:28 PM, Brown, Matthew A
wrote:<br>
>> REPOSITORY RECEIPT FOR
COLLECTIONS<br>
><br>
</span><span>>
_______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the
Society for the Preservation of<br>
> Natural History Collections (SPNHC),
an international society whose<br>
> mission is to improve the
preservation, conservation and management
of<br>
> natural history collections to ensure
their continuing value to<br>
</span>> society. See <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwIF-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=mPwcdPJvBXjWEXqjb6PW7yMBMoOsdQrXAC2_7oZUNPw&s=cH1K2cL8FWfssRNn8g9BjMScv80dXBCAt1XhJGkd6yU&e=" target="_blank">
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the
Society for the Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an
international society whose<br>
mission is to improve the preservation,
conservation and management of<br>
natural history collections to ensure
their continuing value to<br>
society. See <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwMFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=nNgs7Q4Cr1pnZXtJg54-yar0U5Zy4qKwMpod11uvphk&s=li42Sfr54PiGlL6PIboyHVQbRS96gHFcSiM5dC877fE&e=" target="_blank">http://www.spnhc.org</a>
for membership information.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div>Kevin Winker<br>
University of Alaska Museum<br>
907 Yukon Drive<br>
Fairbanks, AK 99775<br>
<div
style="padding:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;overflow:hidden;word-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-height:130%"></div>
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<br>
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the
Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international
society whose<br>
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and
management of<br>
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value
to<br>
society. See <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwMFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=56LW3aPSsQIRyhi44NVawGWmZZ-rtBTeAOT0NNPRdu8&s=YEkxNVWuL2Yl5qOmY20ES7t4YebdQi70Xx5P1kBmlPg&e=" target="_blank">http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership
information.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">Kevin Winker<br>
University of Alaska Museum<br>
907 Yukon Drive<br>
Fairbanks, AK 99775<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of
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natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dirk Neumann
Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
Postanschrift:
Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Labor
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München
Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
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---------
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Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
postal address:
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The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
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