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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Yes, most major bird collections
consist primarily of specimens collected under permit or obtained
from people who had permits...for the period during which there
even were permits to be had, which is basically the 1970s.<br>
<br>
Of course, for many museums, especially the older and larger
collections, a very large part of the collections consist of
specimens obtained from the late 1700s to that point when permits
were instituted.<br>
<br>
As for contributions by people who don't hold permits, this comes
up mostly in the context of "citizen salvage." For a number of
years, there was an actual USFWS policy to the effect that this
was simply not a high priority for Law Enforcement. That policy
expired some years ago, but even so, it is hard to imagine that
this would be a high priority for Law Enforcement. Nonetheless,
those good citizens who salvage dead birds are doing so illegally
and museums can't accept those offers under the provision Kevin
cited. Several years ago, the USFWS proposed a new "conservation
education" permit under the MBTA and in the context of that
proposed regulation also addressed the issue of citizen salvage.
Sad to say that the regulation seems to have died on the vine and
so we are still without a citizen salvage provision. We continue
to push for finalization of that regulation, much as we have
pushed for years for citizen salvage regulation for many years.
However, I am not hopeful.<br>
<br>
FYI, 21.23 permits include salvage authority. Not citizen salvage,
but salvage by anyone authorized to work under the permit, which
would include all your employees and volunteers working under your
supervision.<br>
<br>
Ellen<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Ellen Paul
Executive Director
The Ornithological Council
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a>
"Providing Scientific Information about Birds<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nmnh.si.edu_BIRDNET&d=AwMD-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=khBK7yzCgCcaJzAAjpvVwsmwf6S0ASy103yRqX4QGEo&s=iNLhhGrv_202GC-fbJx56PpotqQ59cObrmRFPfZR1Ko&e=">"
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/BIRDNET"</a>
</pre>
On 2/20/15 3:18 AM, Brown, Matthew A wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:A8C4276C-5D09-4A78-BDA9-1112E1B99EF4@utexas.edu"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div><br>
In part I blame being in the office till 1am several nights in a
row, but your comment about regions finally reminded me that, oh
yeah, it's Texas museums that need to have that federal permit
under 21.27, because Texas Parks and Wildlife requires that we
have the Federal permit in addition to theirs in order to handle
migratory birds in the state. Thus, with the special purpose
permits in hand, we have to report annually even if we would
otherwise be exempt from federal permitting requirements. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, it also gives us salvage authority, which is how a
large part of our 18,000 specimen collection of modern skeletons
has historically been built. Acting under the exemption you
cited, we could only build collections by gift or by purchase
from individuals or institutions who were permitted or otherwise
authorized. But wouldn't this disqualify most institutions with
collecting programs from the exemption as well? Are there that
many major bird collections that are built solely through gift,
purchase, or individual researchers with a scientific collecting
permit?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know I said I was going to shut up on the topic, so I'm
gonna do that now. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Feb 20, 2015, at 12:14 AM, Kevin Winker <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kevin.winker@alaska.edu">kevin.winker@alaska.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Federal regions vary, but in my experience the
permitting personnel are often overtasked, so reasonable
requests to reduce mutual burdens while upholding mutual
obligations may be accommodated. We do try to have
positive working relationships with these folks and with
other agency personnel, and this has served us well and I
hope they would on balance agree (though I do wish that
permitting personnel did not have such a high turnover
rate). If we keep focused on how best to legally collect
and preserve specimens for science and education, making
them appropriately useful and accessible, everyone wins.
The less time we have to spend not meeting those
goals...well, that's better, too. I'm not pointing at the
present dialogue, but at the issue that began it. This
thread has helped me better understand the variation that
exists in our community.<br>
<br>
</div>
Best, K.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:12 PM,
Brown, Matthew A <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:matthewbrown@utexas.edu" target="_blank">matthewbrown@utexas.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Haha, well if that's so, then color me corrected.
I'd read this as permit for acquisition or disposal,
not to hold collections, but it does say possess. I
guess my first call tomorrow will be to the FWS
permitting office asking why they are insistent that
a special purpose permit is necessary for us to hold
a few thousand migratory birds in our collections. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Matt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On Feb 19, 2015, at 9:29 PM, Kevin Winker <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kevin.winker@alaska.edu" target="_blank">kevin.winker@alaska.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Nope. Sorry. This is incorrect: "The
only way for a museum collection to
legally hold non-eagle migratory bird
specimens is with a special purpose
permit issued under § 21.27. " See 50
CFR 21.12(b). I suspect most of the
bigger and more active bird collections
in the U.S. fall under this clause.
Those who aren't may wish to inquire
whether they can. Here are the details:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.gpo.gov_fdsys_pkg_CFR-2D2010-2Dtitle50-2Dvol6_xml_CFR-2D2010-2Dtitle50-2Dvol6-2Dsec21-2D12.xml&d=AwMFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=nNgs7Q4Cr1pnZXtJg54-yar0U5Zy4qKwMpod11uvphk&s=ouh9A5X1Fzko--AuIGNtlzeM9jGotX2CPZhLjRWB4Ws&e=" target="_blank">http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title50-vol6/xml/CFR-2010-title50-vol6-sec21-12.xml</a>
<br>
<br>
"(b)(1) State game departments,
municipal game farms or parks, and
public museums, public zoological parks,
accredited institutional members of the
American Association of Zoological Parks
and Aquariums (AAZPA) and public
scientific or educational institutions
may acquire by gift or purchase,
possess, transport, and by gift or sale
dispose of lawfully acquired migratory
birds or their progeny, parts, nests, or
eggs without a permit: Provided, That
such birds may be acquired only from
persons authorized by this paragraph or
by a permit issued pursuant to this part
to possess and dispose of such birds, or
from Federal or State game authorities
by the gift of seized, condemned, r sick
or injured birds. Any such birds,
acquired without a permit, and any
progeny therefrom may be disposed of
only to persons authorized by this
paragraph to acquire such birds without
a permit. Any person exercising a
privilege granted by this paragraph must
keep accurate records of such operations
showing the species and number of birds
acquired, possessed, and disposed of;
the names and addresses of the persons
from whom such birds were acquired or to
whom such birds were donated or sold;
and the dates of such transactions.
Records shall be maintained or
reproducible in English on a calendar
year basis and shall be retained for a
period of five (5) years following the
end of the calendar year covered by the
records."<br>
<br>
</div>
With this, I agree: "One can't just
cherry-pick parts of the laws that seem to
support your argument, you have to read
the relevant laws and regulations in their
totality." And that's why I won't be
expounding on issues related to paleo
collections. ;)<br>
<br>
</div>
Best, K.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 19,
2015 at 5:12 PM, Brown, Matthew A <span
dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:matthewbrown@utexas.edu" target="_blank">matthewbrown@utexas.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I'm just going to try this bird permit
explanation one last time, and then for
the sake of everybody's sanity and
probable feelings of disgust, I'll give
up.<br>
<br>
I know that § 21.23 is the scientific
collecting permit. And it is only that.
It does not authorize the holding of
museum collections, in fact §
21.23(c)(1) disallows the keeping of
specimens unless the scientific
collector is issued a special purpose
permit under § 21.27. The only way for a
museum collection to legally hold
non-eagle migratory bird specimens is
with a special purpose permit issued
under § 21.27. Those permit conditions
mandate annual reporting. CFR 50,
Chapter 1, Subchapter B, Part 13,
Subpart D § 13.48 requires compliance by
the museum with all conditions,
including the annual reporting
conditions. I have one of these special
purpose permits in my hand, right now,
looking at the section where it says it
is issued under the authority of § 13
and § 21.27, and that annual reporting
is required each year. Not just for five
years, but each year that the permit is
valid. That means that as long as an
institution holds migratory birds,
annual Federal reporting is required.
One can't just cherry-pick parts of the
laws that seem to support your argument,
you have to read the relevant laws and
regulations in their totality.<br>
<br>
And we haven't even gotten to migratory
birds collected from Federal land yet.
This is just DOI USFWS regs for
migratory birds that aren't bald or
golden eagles. Not for paleo or cultural
items, not even for all natural history
collections. Just non-eagle migratory
birds. Onerous? Maybe. But it is also
required by law, and what we signed up
for when we took positions of
responsibility in museums.<br>
<span><br>
<br>
<br>
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 2:43 PM,
Ellen Paul <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net" target="_blank">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> By the way, 21.27 is NOT "<br>
> "The special use permit required
by § 21.27 for a museum collection"<br>
><br>
> 21.27 is just what it says it is:
Permits may be issued for special
purpose activities related to
migratory birds, their parts, nests,
or eggs, which are otherwise outside
the scope of the standard form permits
of this part. A special purpose permit
for migratory bird related activities
not otherwise provided for in this
part may be issued to an applicant who
submits a written application
containing the general information and
certification required by part 13 and
makes a sufficient showing of benefit
to the migratory bird resource,
important research reasons, reasons of
human concern for individual birds, or
other compelling justification.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Scientific collecting is covered
by 21.23. Therefore, 21.27 is
inapplicable.<br>
><br>
> Ellen Paul<br>
> Executive Director<br>
> The Ornithological Council<br>
> Email:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ellen.paul@verizon.net" target="_blank">ellen.paul@verizon.net</a><br>
><br>
> "Providing Scientific Information
about Birds<br>
> "<br>
</span>> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nmnh.si.edu_BIRDNET&d=AwIF-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=mPwcdPJvBXjWEXqjb6PW7yMBMoOsdQrXAC2_7oZUNPw&s=UsNXAFaBAHIerQGjpFN5dtwwwlq7Lc2IXJc4OcwJ9KA&e=" target="_blank">
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nmnh.si.edu_BIRDNET&d=AwIF-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=mPwcdPJvBXjWEXqjb6PW7yMBMoOsdQrXAC2_7oZUNPw&s=UsNXAFaBAHIerQGjpFN5dtwwwlq7Lc2IXJc4OcwJ9KA&e=</a>
"<br>
<span>><br>
> On 2/19/15 3:28 PM, Brown,
Matthew A wrote:<br>
>> REPOSITORY RECEIPT FOR
COLLECTIONS<br>
><br>
</span><span>>
_______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the
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> Natural History Collections
(SPNHC), an international society
whose<br>
> mission is to improve the
preservation, conservation and
management of<br>
> natural history collections to
ensure their continuing value to<br>
</span>> society. See <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwIF-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=mPwcdPJvBXjWEXqjb6PW7yMBMoOsdQrXAC2_7oZUNPw&s=cH1K2cL8FWfssRNn8g9BjMScv80dXBCAt1XhJGkd6yU&e=" target="_blank">
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the
Society for the Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC),
an international society whose<br>
mission is to improve the
preservation, conservation and
management of<br>
natural history collections to
ensure their continuing value to<br>
society. See <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwMFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=nNgs7Q4Cr1pnZXtJg54-yar0U5Zy4qKwMpod11uvphk&s=li42Sfr54PiGlL6PIboyHVQbRS96gHFcSiM5dC877fE&e=" target="_blank">
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div>Kevin Winker<br>
University of Alaska Museum<br>
907 Yukon Drive<br>
Fairbanks, AK 99775<br>
<div
style="padding:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;overflow:hidden;word-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-height:130%"></div>
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<br>
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the
Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international
society whose<br>
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and
management of<br>
natural history collections to ensure their continuing
value to<br>
society. See <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwMFAw&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=k5oKkGwbuDYGjFAQXnBSfjV7z8J7jiADSez7lcUyVkM&s=jTyASPVluuSi0zIKrNE2b79yck3vx28YYpNuJfvV4Ls&e=" target="_blank">http://www.spnhc.org</a> for
membership information.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">Kevin Winker<br>
University of Alaska Museum<br>
907 Yukon Drive<br>
Fairbanks, AK 99775<br>
<div
style="padding:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;overflow:hidden;word-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-height:130%"></div>
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
society. See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.spnhc.org&d=AwMD-g&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=khBK7yzCgCcaJzAAjpvVwsmwf6S0ASy103yRqX4QGEo&s=FIYuPllRCvoVbjJRkP9H3w-v9mfIOYV8aVDhgLwVYRE&e=">http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership information.
</pre>
</blockquote>
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