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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Simon,<br>
<br>
absolutely agree that decalcification is a process with little or
no damage e.g. for larger long bones, but I have been told from
our colleagues in the palaeontology that even short formalin
immersion massively damages the surface structure e.g. on otoliths
- at least this seems to be the case in fish, but fish bones tend
to be more fragile anyway, so it might not be that much of an
issue in mammals.<br>
<br>
Lipids & oxidisation: good point!<br>
<br>
With best wishes<br>
Dirk <br>
<br>
<br>
Am 29.05.2017 um 10:39 schrieb <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:couteaufin@btinternet.com">couteaufin@btinternet.com</a>:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">I am holidaying in France and have just got
a signal!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes to nearly all of Dirk’s comments except
that I don’t find that formalin fixation would even start to
decalcify the inorganic matrix out of bones. Formalin fixation
usually occurs from pH 7 down to pH 5 but not below and for
short-term immersion, enough to fix, this would not be an
issue. In my experience I have found decalcified skeletons in
whole mammals stored over a multi-year period in formalin and
where the pH has dropped down to about pH 3, usually due to
the lipid seepage and subsequent oxidation! However, this is
rather academic relating to the main topic under discussion.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would certainly agree with the everything
else that he said especially the problem of the fixed state of
organs upsetting the use of enzymes &c.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
With all good wishes, Simon.<br>
<br>
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR<br>
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.natural-2Dhistory-2Dconservation.com&d=DwMDaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=RsRAfLggk53DY9f1KfgyNu0lyLtyQ2N7rB5KACMZIb4&s=5WdsiKeOSzQeRM4sz9qubCgWutW6-hMk5au1N6vxj4Q&e=">www.natural-history-conservation.com</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div
style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0cm"><b>From:
</b><a href="mailto:dckatz@ucdavis.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">David Katz</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>26 May 2017 19:51<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de" moz-do-not-send="true">Dirk Neumann</a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Nhcoll-l] Formaldehyde and bone
preservation</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks everyone. We will stick with out
original (non-formalin) plan. The reason for considering
formalin is because these animals are potentially disease
vectors. By "short" I meant fixation for a sufficient length
of time that the tissue would be fixed. I was contrasting it
with a situation where you might have an animal sitting in
formalin for years (sometimes happens in anatomy classes for
dissection specimens that don't get used).</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Really appreciate the help. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
David</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 1:59 AM, Dirk
Neumann <<a href="mailto:dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear David,<br>
<br>
because of the low pH formaldehyde decalcifies the
the bones and can make (tiny) bones brittle. Also,
because of the covalent bonding inside tissues,
enzymatic degradation of tissues is hindered.
Unbound formalin escaping during maceration from
specimens could cause formaldehyde gas to get
trapped under the lid of the maceration tank and
might cause health issues when opening the tank.<br>
<br>
I am also not sure if "short" fixation would result
in sufficient penetration into tissues, so you would
need to expose the bodied for sufficient long time
(depending on the size and amount of tissue) <br>
<br>
This would be the immediate concerns that jump into
my mind, but there might be more.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps<br>
Dirk</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
Am 26.05.2017 um 03:45 schrieb David Katz:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi everyone, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We will have a number of
medium bodied primate carcasses that we plan
to macerate in order to preserve the
skeletons. We've been told that fixing with
formaldehyde prior to maceration can
negatively affect the bones. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What are the
consequences? Is this an issue for both
short and long duration fixation, or just
long? Thanks very much.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
David<br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David C.
Katz, Ph.D.</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Postdoctoral
Fellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Benedikt
Hallgrimsson Lab<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">University
of Calgary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Research
Associate</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Department
of Anthropology<br>
University of California,
Davis</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
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<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>Dirk Neumann</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Tel: 089 / 8107-111</pre>
<pre>Fax: 089 / 8107-300</pre>
<pre>email: Dirk.Neumann(a)<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zsm.mwn.de&d=DwMFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=hKTRB4f5hDXDvXtePcuTY1X-2LfzlPtO4X-0ARo7Kfo&s=rIGOWrSJlSh0mcvu7a9j4ofEMU1A5Z7JS15j6K6gpi8&e=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zsm.mwn.de</a></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Postanschrift:</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns</pre>
<pre>Zoologische Staatssammlung München</pre>
<pre>Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage</pre>
<pre>Münchhausenstr. 21</pre>
<pre>81247 München</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:</pre>
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<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>---------</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Dirk Neumann</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Tel: <a href="tel:+49%2089%208107111" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+49-89-8107-111</a></pre>
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<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>postal address:</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Bavarian Natural History Collections</pre>
<pre>The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology</pre>
<pre>Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage</pre>
<pre>Muenchhausenstr. 21</pre>
<pre>81247 Munich (Germany)</pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Visit our section at:</pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">David C. Katz, Ph.D.</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt">Postdoctoral
Fellow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
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Hallgrimsson Lab<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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University of California, Davis</p>
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Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.
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</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dirk Neumann
Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
Postanschrift:
Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München
Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
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---------
Dirk Neumann
Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
postal address:
Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
Muenchhausenstr. 21
81247 Munich (Germany)
Visit our section at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMDaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=CLFZJ3fvGSmDp7xK1dNZfh6uGV_h-8NVlo3fXNoRNzI&m=RsRAfLggk53DY9f1KfgyNu0lyLtyQ2N7rB5KACMZIb4&s=ZHdHQdMjqna-VH9j9ZrRTgcHmRpsTfCpEK0KtqQH1nU&e=">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/ich/</a>
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