<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Thanks Dirk,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Good to hear that your specimen in EtOH does well. I suspect that the fat leaching, leading to oxidation / acidification problem is more rapid with the alcoholic preservatives than with the formalin? Basically it all comes down to maintenance levels!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">With all good wishes, Simon.</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR<br class="">Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,<br class=""><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.natural-2Dhistory-2Dconservation.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=n64ixMIUY4_A4eanCrinES8mdKxPRh7651ySMvXvxO0&e=" class="">www.natural-history-conservation.com</a> </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 14 Sep 2017, at 07:47, Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de" class="">dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Simon,<br class="">
<br class="">
well, not that sure - we have two specimens (an embryo and a
rotten juvenile): the embryo was in formalin, and during
ct-imaging there we had issues with the resolution of the images
because the bony structures suffered from the acidic conditions of
the holding fluid.<br class="">
<br class="">
The initially already rotten specimen we have (originally formalin
fixed) and subsequently stored in 75% EtOH does perfectly well.<br class="">
<br class="">
All the best<br class="">
Dirk<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Am 13.09.2017 um 23:30 schrieb Simon Moore:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:969960E1-C3AD-4B9C-9D5E-FC82D9564601@btinternet.com" class="">
Thanks Dirk and John and Perry for showing this problem.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have seen more than a few coelacanth specimens on
display in museums and the only real survivors have been
preserved in 5% formalin <u class="">+</u> phosphate buffer.
Perhaps there is a lesson here….?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">With
all good wishes, Simon.</div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Simon
Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR<br class="">
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,<br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.natural-2Dhistory-2Dconservation.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=3i03OeQ9F6yger9dAZta0hgu4RTwtmz_qUsKtQxVcwI&e=" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">www.natural-history-conservation.com</a> </div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 13 Sep 2017, at 20:09, Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">dirk.neumann@zsm.mwn.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Perry,<br class="">
<br class="">
just to add few details for converting the specimen
(partly) into an anatomical prep. My assumption was
this Coelacanth should stay on display, but should no
longer be presented in this condition.<br class="">
<br class="">
Before starting any preparations on the specimens, I
would document it as good as possible (preferably
cost-efficient 3-D imaging methods, e.g. with a
traditional digital camera and photos to be taken from
different angles).<br class="">
<br class="">
Test tissues, to explore how deep the deterioration of
the tissues continues in the inside of the body. Keep
all scales and other small bones or the eye ball in 75
EtOH (perhaps change the alcohol to get rid of
residual acids). Rinse the bones to get rid of any
acids or lipids. Soft detergents might be helpful.<br class="">
<br class="">
Remove the broken down tissues until you reach more
stable areas and prep the specimen in a way that it
stays useful for exhibition purpose in the current
display tank (but using EtOH to slow down further
deterioration (as far as possible). Gradually remove
the isoprop (no separate staging of the specimen) is
surely useful to avoid further damage to cell
membranes. After this transfer, you should carefully
monitor the fluid (discolouration) and exchange the
fluid again to get rid of residual isopropyl leaching
from the specimen.<br class="">
<br class="">
If everything fails and the tissues of the specimen
continue to break down, you still can prepare the
bones. Might be worth to secure any gut contents etc.
(if still available, e.g. fish bones) and to do
ct-scans of organs etc. if this is still possible.<br class="">
<br class="">
I wish you best of success with any treatment you
would find suited.<br class="">
Dirk<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Am 13.09.2017 um 18:51 schrieb John E Simmons:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAF7GCDa+Q+GjRSJC6QTDGvBTadbNpd7w=q0DMW_SMCrpbSRhcg@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">Perry,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">I have
examined the photos that you sent of the specimen,
and to be perfectly frank, the condition of the
coelacanth specimen is very bad. At this point, I
am not sure you can save the specimen. I have
included in this email another expert on the
preservation of fluid preserved specimens--Dirk
Neumann (Zoologische Staatssammlung, Munich), who
has also reviewed the pictures, as well as Rob
Waller and Simon Moore. I have attached the
photographs that you sent me to this email in case
Rob and Simon have not seen all of them.<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">To
summarize your previous emails, this is what is
known about the specimen (please let me know if
any of these points are incorrect):</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class="">1. The
specimen was purchased in the fall of 1971,
and was preserved in formaldehyde at that
time.</span></font></p>
<font class="" size="2"> </font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class="">2. The
specimen was transferred to alcohol when it
was put on display sometime after 1971.<br class="">
</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class=""> [do you
mean it was transferred to ethyl alcohol at
this time?]<br class="">
</span></font></p>
<font class="" size="2"> </font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class="">3. Some
alcohol changes were done in the following
years, but no records exist of the changes.</span></font></p>
<font class="" size="2"> </font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class="">4. The last
complete alcohol change (the old alcohol was
drained and replaced with 50% <span class=""> </span>isopropanol) was done in
2000. The isopropanol has not been changed
since 2000.</span></font></p>
<font class="" size="2"> </font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class="">5. A pH
reading was made on April 12, 2017. The
litmus paper indicated less than pH 5. It
was pale yellow.</span></font></p>
<font class="" size="2"> </font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:normal"><font class="" size="2"><span class="">6. A density
meter reading was made on April 12, 2017 and
showed the solution to be 0.9285 g/cm<sup class="">2 </sup>(density meter adjusted
to alcohol). The display has 51%
Isopropanol (standardized to 20 <sup class="">o</sup>C), and 43.4%
(non-standardize and not corrected to
temperature).</span></font></p>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">Some points
to consider:<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">-The
density of 50% isopropyl alcohol at 20C should be
about 0.925 g/mL.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">-Testing
for pH of alcohol mixtures is tricky, but a pH
indicator strip can give you an approximate idea
of how acidic or basic the mixture is.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">-From the
photographs, it appears that a lot of damage has
already occurred to the specimen that cannot be
repaired and in fact, the deterioration is ongoing
and will only get worse. As Simon Moore pointed
out in his email response, the scales and other
debris accumulating in the tank indicate that that
the tissues and tissue matrix of the specimen are
breaking down, probably due to acidification of
the isopropyl alcohol mixture. The orange color of
the specimen is also characteristic of
acidification of a preserved specimen (although
the color could also be an artifact of the
lighting used for the photographs).<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: small;">I also sent
the photographs to<font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class=""> Dirk
Neumann to examine. He has suggested that you
could try transferring the specimen into 75%
ethyl alcohol (ETOH) by gradually adding
ethanol to the storage fluid in a series of
steps (for example, using ratios of ethanol to
isopropyl storage fluid of 1/3, 2/3, 3/3) to
slow down the deterioration process, but it is
unlikely that the deterioration can be stopped
it at this point, and that procedure will not
restore the specimen. Another option might be
to</span></font><font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class=""> convert the
specimen (at least its badly damaged side) to
be an anatomical preparation, showing the
skeleton.</span></font><br class="">
<font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class=""></span></font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class=""> <br class="">
</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class="">It is possible that Rob, Simon, or
Dirk will have other suggestions for what
you can do, but the situation does not look
good.</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class=""><br class="">
</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><font class="" size="2"><span style="line-height:107%" class="">I will be in Vancouver from 02-05
November for a meeting. Although my schedule
is very full due to the meeting, I might be
able to come to the Vancouver Aquarium on
Sunday afternoon, 05 November, to look at
the specimen if that is possible (my flight
home leaves that evening), although I doubt
that I could see anything that is not
visible in the photographs.<br class="">
</span></font></p>
<font class="" size="2"> </font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif;"><font class="" size="2"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:
tahoma, sans-serif;"><font class="" size="2">--John<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="" clear="all">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">John E. Simmons<br class="">
Museologica<br class="">
128 E. Burnside Street<br class="">
Bellefonte, Pennsylvania 16823-2010<br class="">
<a href="mailto:simmons.johne@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">simmons.johne@gmail.com</a><br class="">
303-681-5708<br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.museologica.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=ROd4de60MaF_O1K7XOgwpiX6Bc7pAIiV-e2z3lw03sI&e=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">www.museologica.com</a><br class="">
and<br class="">
Adjunct Curator of Collections<br class="">
Earth and Mineral Science Museum &
Art Gallery<br class="">
Penn State University<br class="">
University Park, Pennsylvania<br class="">
and<br class="">
Instructor, Museum Studies<br class="">
School of Library and Information
Science<br class="">
Kent State University<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dirk Neumann
Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zsm.mwn.de_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=uQ-Vcj1m8Imo8Wgepm_-ppOlnrS93TfeAkO8xsbz8jk&e=" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">zsm.mwn.de</a>
Postanschrift:
Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München
Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=W4wzLe0x7k5d-yN0Hwsw0E-HS1RqPma2gqLOKdlLs50&e=" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/ich/</a>
---------
Dirk Neumann
Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zsm.mwn.de_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=uQ-Vcj1m8Imo8Wgepm_-ppOlnrS93TfeAkO8xsbz8jk&e=" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">zsm.mwn.de</a>
postal address:
Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
Muenchhausenstr. 21
81247 Munich (Germany)
Visit our section at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=W4wzLe0x7k5d-yN0Hwsw0E-HS1RqPma2gqLOKdlLs50&e=" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/ich/</a>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dirk Neumann
Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zsm.mwn.de&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=M3U3K30iTc8FRZ4suO5SjJO5wqjpSSb7uhsW9t4HvyM&e=" class="">zsm.mwn.de</a>
Postanschrift:
Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München
Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=W4wzLe0x7k5d-yN0Hwsw0E-HS1RqPma2gqLOKdlLs50&e=">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/ich/</a>
---------
Dirk Neumann
Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zsm.mwn.de&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=M3U3K30iTc8FRZ4suO5SjJO5wqjpSSb7uhsW9t4HvyM&e=" class="">zsm.mwn.de</a>
postal address:
Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
Muenchhausenstr. 21
81247 Munich (Germany)
Visit our section at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=Y8GNXtY-wjFYKTV3gHqYGeU7NM5GI0fEsQsuddYbSwY&s=W4wzLe0x7k5d-yN0Hwsw0E-HS1RqPma2gqLOKdlLs50&e=">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/ich/</a>
</pre>
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