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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Fabian,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We keep an old collection with a multitude of different kind of jars. Today we use mostly cheap glass jars made for food industry with twist off metal lids with plastic
linen (excellent for ethanol, bad for formalin), but we have glass jars from the early 19<sup>th</sup> century, jars with gaskets etc. etc.. Through keeping the temperature in the store rooms at least 3-4 degrees (Centigrade) lower compared with the lab, we
reach this under-pressure without any special jar solutions. We have a very low evaporation from the jars now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><img width="98" height="86" style="width:1.025in;height:.9in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image002.gif@01D3B085.4AFFE6A0" alt="nrm_logo"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Erik Åhlander<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Collection Manager, fish and herptiles<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Swedish Museum of Natural History<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Department of Zoology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Box 50007<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">SE-104 05 STOCKHOLM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Sweden<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:erik.ahlander@nrm.se"><span lang="SV" style="color:#0563C1">erik.ahlander@nrm.se</span></a></span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">+46-8-51954118<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">+46-70-2252716<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">Från:</span></b><span style="color:windowtext"> nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu]
<b>För </b>Fabian Neisskenwirth<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 28 februari 2018 10:36<br>
<b>Till:</b> nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu<br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">I’m working on a huge restauration project involving over 1000 jars (</span><span lang="EN-US">Ichthyology collection)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"> that have to be resealed or
replaced because most of them are broken. After long research and discussion whit lots of museum taxidermist colleagues if come to the conclusion that the best sealed jar is one with negative pressure, like marmalade jar. The negative pressure can be reached
in an desiccator or a foodsealing machine. We are trying here at the museum to get a big vacuum-chamber to pressurize lots of jars at the same time.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Studies of a colleague have proved that with this method there is almost no loss of liquid. Off course the best would be to use the boro silicate jars, but still this method gives good results in
normal natrum-soda jars. Sadly the article on this subject is in german. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Any suggestions or comments on the subject of vacuuming jars?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">*******************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="45" height="21" style="width:.4666in;height:.2166in" id="Bild_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D3B083.DCDF9180" alt="nmbe-logo"><br>
</span><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Fabian Neisskenwirth<br>
Zoologischer Präparator<br>
Naturhistorisches Museum der Burgergemeinde Bern<br>
Bernastrasse 15<br>
CH-3005 Bern<br>
<br>
E-Mail: <a href="mailto:fabian.neisskenwirth@nmbe.ch"><span style="color:blue">fabian.neisskenwirth@nmbe.ch</span></a><br>
Telefon: ++41 (0)31 350 72 35<br>
Fax: ++41 (0)31 350 74 99<br>
Web: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nmbe.ch_&d=DwMFAw&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=wdMgufJ8KuepeI35OnmnrosjUnGQbkk-Dhk7WuRcrso&s=PMK-mqdaMILX0gMgYpqooKI7gxMQ11tbvTNWd2tH-SM&e=">
<span style="color:blue">www.nmbe.ch</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Dirk Neumann<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 28. Februar 2018 08:13<br>
<b>An:</b> Jean-Marc Gagnon; Mike Rutherford; <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">
nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Good morning Jean-Marc, Mike & Andy!<br>
<br>
We have metal lids since the 1990ies in our collection. At the moment, I occasionally have to replace those which have and additional PE foil originally thought and introduced to improve the closure. In fact it traps condensates and accelerates deterioration
(rusting ) of lids.<br>
<br>
As we have huge troubles with our climate control systems since several years (system dates back to 1985 and never worked properly, leading to RH shift btw. 80-30 %, yesterday I was even below 30% ..) and temperature shifts ranging from 16-24°C, metal lids
in our collection are all but under stable, controlled conditions. Adding to this, we have the quite aggressive ketone MEK as denaturant. Still, the metal lids do fine, and our observations in Munich largely agree with observations Emily Dock made in Stockholm.
(</span><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Warén, A., E. Dock-Åkerman, and H. Taylor. 2010. Metal-lid jars in museum collections?
<i>Collection Forum</i> 24(1-2):52-61.)</span><span lang="DE-CH"> <br>
<br>
Perhaps there is a difference in industry norms or production standards between North America and Europe ? I know the Steigerwald & Laframboise paper, but the question of taping all jars (and re-doing all taping once the jars are opened) is a simple cost-benefit
question: a metal lid is less then 10 cent and replacing a lid is less then 5 seconds, re-doing the taping takes 1-2 minutes plus tape costs. We have a rather small, but heavily frequented collection, so replacing metal lids is the cheaper option for us.<br>
<br>
My observation is that PP-lids with PE-liners do fine up to 45 mm neck opening. Above that (50 mm), closures are not that good and jars show increased evaporation issues. So our strategy at the moment is: PP-lids with PE-Liners for 100ml-300 ml jars (rarely
500-1000 with 50 mmm necks), 1200-1700 ml jars with metal lids and above only borosilicate with plane or ground stopper closures (typical sizes are 300 mm x 80 mm and 300 x 150 mm for flanged and 400 x 150 mm & 600 x 200 mm for stoppered).
<br>
<br>
Mike's question was to replace metal lids for jars which were designed for metal lids. Because of the narrow threads of those jars and the fact that opening would be rather wide (if I understood Mike's question correctly), I doubt that PP-screw on lids for
diameters above 50 mm would be a could replacement. Independent of this I definitely agree that replacement of entire jars (compromised metal lids in jars with necks up to 50 mm in diameter) with jars with PP-lids would be a good idea. Depending on the climatic
conditions inside storage. PP lids with PE liners are surely a much better oxygen barrier compared to PVC.-lids, but still allow diffusion of oxygen. Metal lids have a better performance in this regard.<br>
<br>
In the end there are several trade-offs and no straight forwards solution, I guess.<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 27.02.2018 um 21:41 schrieb Jean-Marc Gagnon:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">Dirk,</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">I was a little surprised by your response, promoting metal lids as opposed to Polypropylene lids. We (at CMN) have not had any success with metal lids, even with what seems to be
reasonable, ethanol-resistant liners. Even the metal lids designed for Mason Jars, commonly used for preserves in North America, will rust after a while.</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">In all our fluid-preserved collections, we have been using with great success Polypropylene lids for decades (of course, with two full tread turns), along with the F217 PE liner
and sealing tape (see Steigerwald and Laframboise (1996). TAPE APPLICATION: A JAR SEALING METHOD FOR REDUCING ETHANOL EVAPORATION IN FLUID-PRESERVED COLLECTIONS. Collection Forum Volume 12, Number 2).</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">While we haven’t quantitatively measured that success, I can tell you that in our wet Mollusc Collection, prior to 2002, we would have many jars needing retopping after only a few
years (they often only had the PP lids with no liner or tape). But after applying the standard I described above in 2002, we literally haven’t had to retop the ethanol in any of the jars in the past 15-16 years.
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">Is it always perfect: No. But we have had very little failure in these lids and liners. The tape is always reapplied fresh if a jar needs to be open; it is relatively inexpensive
(from Spectape Inc.) so that I not an issue.</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">I hope this helps.</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D">Jean-Marc</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:#1F497D">Jean-Marc Gagnon, Ph.D.</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:#1F497D">Curator/Conservateur, Invertebrate Collections/Collections de invertébrés</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:#1F497D">Tel : 613-364-4066, email/courriel :
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><a href="mailto:jmgagnon@nature.ca"><span lang="FR-CA">jmgagnon@nature.ca</span></a></span><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:#1F497D">
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:#1F497D">D</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:#1F497D">Canada</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:#1F497D">(Courier address : 1740 Pink Road, Gatineau, QC, J9J 3N7)</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span lang="DE-CH" style="color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dirk Neumann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Rutherford <a href="mailto:Mike.Rutherford@sta.uwi.edu"><Mike.Rutherford@sta.uwi.edu></a>;
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Dear Mike,<br>
<br>
depending on the climatic conditions inside you storage area and the holding fluid the specimens are stored in rusting of lids can be a major issue of course. However, because of the narrow thread of twist-off jars, I am not entirely sure of the metal lids
can be easily replaced with plastic lids. The latter usually need higher threads because plastic lids tend to be deformed when screwed tight. This is the reason why jars with plastic lids normally have two fully closed thread turns, compared to jars with metal
lids which usually only have half thread turns. <br>
<br>
Moreover, plastic lids (e.g. PE or PP lids) do not form a good barrier against oxygen, and changing lids might increase or trigger oxidation issues inside jars.<br>
<br>
My advice would be to look into modern metal lids designed for food industry to close jars with sour ingredients (compared to lids for sweet stuff such as jam or honey); these usually have thicker liners inside which protect lids against scratching. Also made
bad experiences with (self-designed) PE-foil inlays, an earlier curator introduced in our collection: the foil is no good barrier against compounds evaporation from holding fluids, but a perfect trap to hold condensates inside a tiny, highly corrosive atmosphere
lid and foil which tends to accelerate deterioration of metal lids. <br>
<br>
Might be worth to check in the food sector for replacement lids or inquire such suppliers where to find 130mm lids.<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
Am 21.02.2018 um 21:57 schrieb Mike Rutherford:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">I’m trying to source large polypropylene screw top lids for some glass jars I have in my museum. The jars are wide mouthed and squat, making them ideal for those weird shaped specimens but the current lids are thin metal
ones which are corroding badly. My previous source for lids was Carolina Biological Supplies but their maximum size of lid is 120mm diameter and I need ones of 130mm diameter.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Can anyone suggest a supplier, preferably in the western hemisphere?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE-CH">Mr. Mike G. Rutherford</span></b><span lang="DE-CH"><br>
Curator of the University of the West Indies Zoology Museum (UWIZM)<br>
Department of Life Sciences<br>
<b>The University of The West Indies<br>
St. Augustine Campus</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE-CH">Trinidad & Tobago, W.I.</span></b><span lang="DE-CH">
<br>
T: (Office) 868-662-2002 ext 82231<br>
T: (Mobile) 868-329-8401<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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mike.rutherford@sta.uwi.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Dirk Neumann<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Tel: +49-89-8107-111<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Fax: +49-89-8107-300<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">postal address:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Bavarian Natural History Collections<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Muenchhausenstr. 21<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">81247 Munich (Germany)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH">Visit our section at:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.zsm.mwn.de_ich_&d=DwMD-g&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=LpYc_Z_iN1KRw0hheb3x6-8MJUMu482qfHowpGYJqwc&m=s5Uu9tUNMVVYSQvDDO8rz4b-5I-jDDCUJegy1iHedJY&s=4FsBeIkROheoxiGuBgYyWAycrQLhlY8r1Le94h8ds2g&e=">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/ich/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
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