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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Tom,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">adding to my and the emails of Andy,
John and Paul, the way Rob describes it surely is the best way to
do it. In case that you have many small fishes in the same jar, we
usually put tissued specimens in open glass tubes in the same jar
and add a individual tissue ID into this glass tube. This helps to
find tissued vouchers quickly and prevents (hopefully) loss of
tags (which are hard to apply to such tiny fishes without damaging
them anyway). We leave the tubes open to avoid plastics inside the
storage fluid as these may release chemical compounds such as
softeners.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Storage at room temperature for fluid
stored tissue samples is not recommended, because you cannot
control hydrolysis. If tissues are entirely (freeze)dried, things
may be different.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">All the best</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dirk<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 22.02.2019 um 16:49 schrieb Rob
Robins:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Yes,
this is the classic collection manager’s conundrum of:
expend labor now to save space or conserve labor now at the
expense of space.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">It
looks to me like you can satisfy both your concern over
wasted space and the researcher’s concern regarding
individual separation of the specimens by:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Resampling
each fish for dna.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Linking
those tissue samples to the individual specimens through the
use of unique sampling locations on the body or small tags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Archiving
the tiny, appropriately labeled tissue vials in an
ultracold.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Commingling
your whole fish voucher specimens in locality/collecting
event specific specimen lots (4 containers and not 35).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Or
in other words, just reproduce the usual protocol for fishes
coming from the field to the collection. I’m no DNA
specialist, but I would think sampling the tissues now and
storing them in the ultracold would also guard against
room-temperature degradation of dna (I’m told this is a
thing) in the specimens themselves and of course, give you
that access to the whole specimens you desire.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Rob<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Robert
H. Robins<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Collection
Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Division
of Ichthyology<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><img
style="width:1.6145in;height:.5833in"
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.C8DD0DCD.B39FFBB3@snsb.de" alt="FLMNH
Fishes logo email small" class="" width="155"
height="56"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Florida
Museum of Natural History<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">1659
Museum Road<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Gainesville,
FL 32611-7800<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Office:
(352) 273-1957<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fax:
(352) 846-0287<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:rhrobins@flmnh.ufl.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563C1">rhrobins@flmnh.ufl.edu</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563C1">www.flmnh.ufl.edu</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><img
style="width:2.3645in;height:3.375in"
id="Picture_x0020_2"
src="cid:part4.0A4137B7.32A17656@snsb.de" alt="Fishes in
the FWofF_cover_front resized 33" class="" width="227"
height="324" border="0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Search
the Collection:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://specifyportal.flmnh.ufl.edu/fishes/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0563C1">http://specifyportal.flmnh.ufl.edu/fishes/</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Nhcoll-l <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu"><nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Thomas Labedz<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 22, 2019 10:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Simmons
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:simmons.johne@gmail.com"><simmons.johne@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NHCOLL-L@mailman.yale.edu">NHCOLL-L@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] eDNA voucher question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">NHCOLL
readers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In
an attempt to clarify my question to another responder I’ve
copied below a more thorough explanation. Thanks to you all
for your time and knowledge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thomas
Labedz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">University
of Nebraska State Museum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The DNA work
was done at another university, one that does not have
collections to maintain vouchers. The DNA was collected and
analyzed from these vouchers, the paper written and
submitted for publication, and the author/researcher wants
to deposit the individual fish as vouchers. Shoal Chub (<i>Macrhybopsis
hyostoma</i>) are small, the largest maybe 5 cm long. My
institution does not have any of the removed tissues that
were analyzed for DNA, nor any products from that DNA, only
the fish themselves. The researcher’s preference is for
individual containers for each specimen should someone want
to extract new tissue for DNA. Doing so would mean an
approximately 10X increase in shelf space and material
necessary to maintain these vouchers. Since we do not have
the DNA samples or products, and are holding only the fish
themselves, I submit that we should individually package
each fish with its information but maintain all the samples
from the same collecting locality in joint jars (4 jars
instead of 35). Yes, cross-contamination would potentially
occur between those jointly held samples, but since they are
from the same collecting site cross-contamination would also
be true in the natural environment where they were
collected. Being small one option is to stuff them into
individual tubes and put them in the freezers with tissues
from other specimens where the vouchers are at this
institution. That might work in this case but doesn’t lend
itself to ready access for species verification, nor does
it function well as policy or protocol should another
project produce larger numbers of samples from larger
species.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Guess I’m
addressing the balance between scientific need and
budgetary/space constraints.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
John E Simmons <</span><a
href="mailto:simmons.johne@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">simmons.johne@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 22, 2019 9:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Thomas Labedz <</span><a
href="mailto:tlabedz1@unl.edu" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">tlabedz1@unl.edu</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a
href="mailto:NHCOLL-L@mailman.yale.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">NHCOLL-L@mailman.yale.edu</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] eDNA voucher question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">I
am not sure I understand the question. Do you mean the
fish are vouchers from which DNA has been extracted and
you want to keep the specimen separate to link it to the
DNA sample, or do you mean fish from which DNA will be
extracted in the future? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">You
will get contamination of the alcohol around the
specimen from DNA from other specimens if you house them
all together because protein is extracted over time by
the alcohol (for example, see von Endt 1994, "Spirit
collections: a preliminary analysis of some organic
materials found in the storage fluid of mammals,"
Collection Forum 10(1):10-19). Whether that
contamination would affect the DNA in the fish specimen
itself has not been looked at, to my knowledge, but is
an interesting question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">If
you are storing these as whole-specimen vouchers from
which DNA has already been sampled, I would go with
Andy's suggestion of vials with polyester fiber plugs.
If you are storing these for future DNA extraction, then
they should be in 95.6% ETOH if they must be kept in
alcohol.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Please
let me know if I have misunderstood your question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">--John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br
clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">John
E. Simmons<br>
Writer and
Museum
Consultant</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Museologica<br>
<i>and</i><br>
Associate
Curator of
Collections<br>
Earth and
Mineral Science
Museum & Art
Gallery<br>
Penn State
University<br>
<i>and</i><br>
Investigador
Asociado,
Departamento de
Ornitologia<br>
Museo de
Historia
Natural,
Universidad
Nacional Mayor
de San Marcos,
Lima</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:41 PM Thomas
Labedz <<a href="mailto:tlabedz1@unl.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">tlabedz1@unl.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Greetings
from snowy central North America!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Has
anyone developed policy or protocol for the receipt,
treatment, and maintenance of eDNA fish voucher
specimens? Would you share? The individual fish are
small and the researcher recommends keeping each
individual in a separate container (how they were
delivered) to prohibit cross contamination of DNA via
the ethanol solution. That is understandable but will
utilize lots of space and containers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thomas
E. Labedz, Collections Manager</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Division
of Zoology and Division of Botany</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">University
of Nebraska State Museum</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Lincoln,
Nebraska, U.S.A.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="mailto:tlabedz1@unl.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">tlabedz1@unl.edu</span></a><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
society. See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.spnhc.org">http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership information.
Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dirk Neumann
Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
*new email: neumann(a)snsb.de*
Postanschrift:
Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München
Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/</a>
---------
Dirk Neumann
Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
*new email: neumann(a)snsb.de*
postal address:
Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
Muenchhausenstr. 21
81247 Munich (Germany)
Visit our section at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/</a>
</pre>
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