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Hello everyone,</div>
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I agree with Rob entirely on this one. We replace bail top, gasketed jars for these very reasons. I certainly would caution against using them moving forward. Just my $0.02.</div>
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Curtis</div>
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<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Curtis J. Schmidt</p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of Rob Robins <rhrobins@flmnh.ufl.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 20, 2020 8:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Callomon,Paul <prc44@drexel.edu>; Neisskenwirth, Fabian <Fabian.Neisskenwirth@ruhrmuseum.de>; 'neumann@snsb.de' <neumann@snsb.de>; nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu <nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners</font>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Hi Folks,</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Would like to contribute an observation on the bail top jars – I agree that the seals are excellent at resisting evaporation, with a major caveat: the gaskets deteriorate (at least gaskets of the type that came to us via a large relinquished
collection in the 1980s).</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">See image 1.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Nearly all bail tops in our care require a levering tool to break the seal between glass and gasket (>90%), such as a stout short-bladed paint scraper. Using the tool safely takes knowhow and dexterity (brute force will work but with
the attendant risk of impaling one’s hand with the tool – and thus is strongly cautioned against).</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">See image 2.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Following jar opening, old gaskets on these old bail tops at UF are unredeemable (99% of the time). Exposed parts of the gasket are usually brittle and flake away, while the gasket that comprised the seal that lasted decades may be fully
or partly molded to the jar – totally affixed. This latter circumstance renders the jar worthless, as no replacement gasket can be placed upon such an irregular surface.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">See images 3 and 4.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">For these reasons and others, whenever we work with bail top specimen lots, we replace the jars with screw top containers -- usually at a space savings (note Paul’s comment about a limited offering of rather large sizes).</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">If the above situation is only avoided with regular replacement of gaskets – that needs to be considered as ongoing maintenance costs associated with the use of this jar type.
</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">But perhaps local conditions have not always been ideal and thus the gaskets degraded more rapidly than they do under ideal conditions. If so, that also should be considered by those collections whose facilities can’t always meet optimal
conditions. </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">It could also be our gaskets are of an inferior material, since improved upon or replaced by manufacturers of these containers systems.
</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">I am unclear on these points and look forward to learning more.
</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Best wishes,</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><br>
Rob</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Robert H. Robins</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Collection Manager</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Division of Ichthyology</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Florida Museum of Natural History</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu> <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Callomon,Paul<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 20, 2020 8:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Neisskenwirth, Fabian <Fabian.Neisskenwirth@ruhrmuseum.de>; 'neumann@snsb.de' <neumann@snsb.de>; nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">We recently overhauled our 50,000-jar alcohol collection for the first time in 50 years. We found the following things for lids on screw-top jars:</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in">
<li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in; mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="">Steel lids are problematic. Ours were painted black on the outside and cadmium-plated inside with solid plastic seals. The seals had almost all held, but the lids
themselves had pinpoint rusting from the inside due to condensation. If those pinpoints get through the metal, the lid is more likely to fail. We’ve replaced them all.</span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in; mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="">PPE lids with either solid PPE disks or F217 liners are both fine. We started using them in the 1980s (PPE disks) and 1990s (F217) and both have lasted well, with
a failure rate below 1%</span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in; mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="">Phenolic lids with coneseal liners – very good. Bakelite and phenolic lids with food-grade-paper (coated or foil-laminated card) liners – high failure rate. We replaced
them all.</span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in; mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="">Note that there is a difference between pure phenolic resin and Bakelite. The latter has wood dust mixed with the resin, and always fails over time, often suddenly
and completely. You can usually tell the difference by the gloss, color and size; Bakelite is not as black or as glossy as phenolic. If it’s over 50 mm in diameter it’s likely to be Bakelite.</span></li><li class="x_MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in; mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span style="">However, as Dirk points out, although phenolic resin is fine with ethanol it can be affected by formaldehyde. We have also found that phenolic will leach dark color
into alcohol if it is immersed for more than a year, so it’s clearly not entirely stable to ethanol either.
</span></li></ul>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="">Finally, though they are not available in small sizes the most stable and economical jars in our collection are bale jars with galvanized steel bale clips and either natural rubber, butyl or neoprene gaskets (e. g. “Ball”-brand
jars). These effectively never fail. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style=""> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Paul Callomon MSc</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; color:black"><br>
<i>Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates</i></span><span style="color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; color:black">Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, Philadelphia</span></b></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; color:black">1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia PA 19103-1195, USA<br>
<i><a href="mailto:prc44@drexel.edu"><span style="color:#0563C1">prc44@drexel.edu</span></a> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 215-299-1170</i></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="">From:</span></b><span style=""> Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Neisskenwirth, Fabian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 20, 2020 4:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'neumann@snsb.de' <<a href="mailto:neumann@snsb.de">neumann@snsb.de</a>>;
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hey there,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">I totally agree with Dirks statement. Glass lids are much more stable than any other kind of material used in fluid collections.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would like to share my experience with a sort of new jar type from Duran® (former Schott). They have a product line called “GLS 80” jars. It has a mouth opening of 80 mm, but the
size varies from 500ml to 25000 ml. The mouth opening works very well for smaller specimens.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">The jars are made of borosilicate and sold at an affordable price, because they are made for the pharma industry. This is why they also have “filling marks”, which esthetically speaking
is not so nice, but it still fulfills the purpose of the jar. One of the sales agents of DWK (Duran Group), offered me that at a certain amount of jars, there could be a batch (around 1000 jars) made without “filling marks”.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">There is a new type of lid for this jars too, made of Polysulfone (PSU) with a PTFE coated silicone liner.
</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">The Duran Group works worldwide, so if you have any questions regarding this contact Eric Lehnen (<a href="mailto:eric.lehnen@dwk.com">eric.lehnen@dwk.com</a>). He knows about the use
of the jars for collections purpose.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">This seems to be a very good improvement to move away from poor quality “sausage jars” with fast degrading lids.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">I have made a one year aging test with three jars with ethanol 70% mixed with a buffered formaldehyde solution 3,4% (9:1) and have seen no negative reactions on the lids. But this still
should be tested more thoroughly.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hope this helps you out!</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Fabian Neisskenwirth</span></b></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Nhcoll-l [<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Dirk Neumann<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag, 20. November 2020 09:10<br>
<b>An:</b> <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Hi Tonya & Lennart,</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">I guess there are several layers to unfold here:</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Foamed liners - like the F217 liners you mention - consist of a foamed cell structure which - if the lid is screwed down tight - is compressed again the neck of the jar. This outs the cells under pressure and closed
cells would withstand this tension better then open cell structures. It is hard to tell if the F217 liners you mention has open or closed cells, which gas is used for filling of the foam structure, etc. Even if the F217 liners would have the right composition,
right thickness, closed cells - it still a is compressible gasket which has a limited life span.
</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">To produce a good closure, you would further need to consider the threads on the jar (continuous or not), the composition of the lid itself (the best liner does not help if the plastic used for the lid itself is of
poor quality, etc. Most important seems to me that sizes of such lids are standardised (rather then customised for specific jars), so that they can easily be replaced if they fail. This is one of the huge problems many collections with Copehagen jars now face
after plastic lids reached the end of their life span, sized where customised, company went out of production: it is virtually impossible to replace these lids - which causes huge problems in many collections.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">It seems that F217 and PTFE liners are often used as inlays for Phenolic caps (Bakelite) - which is a no-go in fluid collections because this sort of thermoset plastics is easily degraded by residual formaldehyde
escaping from formaldehyde preserved specimens, even if they have been transferred in to alcohol. As said: the best liner is worthless if the plastic lid itself is unsuited.
</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">In general, plastic lids are not a good oxygen barrier - this is also worth remembering, especially if specimens inside such jars release a lot of fats or oils.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Rather then concentrating on specific lids I would look into jars that are designed for the pharmaceutical sector. Here, both the jar (soda-lime glass) and the lid are expected (and usually tested) to withstand a
wide range of chemicals AND to provide a good barrier against oxygen.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">There are different suppliers of such jars, the disadvantage of the wide mouth jars however is that the largest opening in these jars is 65 mm. So a good option for for 100 - 1000 ml jars, but not for larger jars.
Stölzle (who also produce high quality borosilicate stoppered jars) is a possible source for such jars, but there are many others as well:
<a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2furldefense.proofpoint.com%2fv2%2furl%3fu%3dhttps-3A__nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fpharma.stoelzle.com-252Fen-252Fproduct-5Fcategory-252Fweithalsglaser-252F-26data-3D04-257C01-257Cprc44-2540drexel.edu-257C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f-257C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6-257C0-257C1-257C637414601473730392-257CUnknown-257CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0-253D-257C2000-26sdata-3DhC1jgMeeoV9txtIntv14ALQRAqC1-252Fcf6qs2jE-252FjX9i8-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3dDwMFAw%26c%3dsJ6xIWYx-zLMB3EPkvcnVg%26r%3dMCIx6IevDpZN7oPx8SAIb6_HvqHJFo2if2SZHHR4kiQ%26m%3dl9JlcM7_nU8aLp6602DXtUY6Mz33LJxiR7NZEcW-cPU%26s%3d890QTyfhF5KDssZAA7H2Sh9ed85K0vheeediMQ3eOPE%26e%3d&c=E,1,2AqpIHicXf15bl58oSGHu_9NJKolS-9-PwN--wB7geP0upMzCRFhrRdUahYV-YlNa3Brd-Xi81yybMm4QteKnzqZ4P8p1vrIhEZbl2BzXlUP81O6fEs,&typo=1">
https://pharma.stoelzle.com/en/product_category/weithalsglaser/</a> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">So as mostly no clear cut answer, but hopefully one that is useful.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">All the best</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Dirk</span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Am 20.11.2020 um 00:29 schrieb Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace):</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">I know I’ve asked about this before, but may I please clarify again…. Does anyone have preference regarding PTFE (e.g. Teflon, I believe) lid liners vs F217 liners, which are layered polyethylene
(as far as I understand). Can anyone give me advice as to what would be better as a lid liner for specimens kept in 70-90% EtOH? Advice very appreciated!</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Cheers,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE">Tonya</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE" style="">---------------------------------------------------------</span><span lang="DE"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="DE" style="">Dr Tonya Haff</span><span lang="DE"></span></p>
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