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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear Tonya,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">When a fluid like ethanol is stored in containers (partly) made of breathable materials (such as PE and PP) the fluid will take up an amount of CO2 and O2 from the surrounding atmosphere until the solubility equilibrium
has been reached. These gasses will be used up by the degradation reactions (e.g. acidification) that take place inside the specimen jar creating new demand to maintain the solubility equilibrium. The best way of slowing down the inevitable acidification of
your fluid is creating a barrier for these gasses to enter the jar by using low-permeable container materials for these gasses. Glass jars with glass lids and a low oxygen permeable sealant are still the best way to severely slow down these degradation processes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">To my opinion, flushing ethanol with nitrogen does not have much effect on preventing acidification in the long-term when subsequently this mix is poured into containers that are not air-tight or are made of materials
that are highly permeable for air.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/profile/preview?vpa=pub&locale=en_US"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:NL;text-decoration:none">Andries J. van Dam</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">
| curator-conservator</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">Anatomical Museum | Directorate of education
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">|</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"> Leiden University
Medical Center | Building 3 (V3-32)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">P.O.Box 9600 | 2300 RC Leiden | The Netherlands</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">Visiting address: Hippocratespad 21 | Tel: +31 (0)71 52 68356 | E-mail:
</span><a href="mailto:A.J.van_Dam@lumc.nl" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:NL;text-decoration:none">A.J.van_Dam@lumc.nl</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">Website:
</span><a href="https://www.lumc.nl/onderwijs/over-ons/anatomisch-museum/?setlanguage=English&setcountry=en"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:NL;text-decoration:none">https://www.lumc.nl/onderwijs/over-ons/anatomisch-museum/?setlanguage=English&setcountry=en</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:NL">Scientific associate | Natural History Museum London |
</span><a href="http://www.nhm.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:NL;text-decoration:none">http://www.nhm.ac.uk</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:NL">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:NL"> Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dirk Neumann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> dinsdag 22 juni 2021 9:12<br>
<b>To:</b> nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] FW: use of air to bubble through ethanol to mix solutions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Good afternoon Tonya,</span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:NL"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">interesting question - do you use pure ethanol, or denatured ethanol, and if the latter, which denaturant is added?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If you use the bubbler to aerate the ethanol to fix it, my first thought would not be the oxygen (assuming that you do not use pure, bottled oxygen for mixing), but the carbon dioxide, which surely leads to an acidification
of the remaining water fraction, even more so, if distilled or bi-distilled water is used to dilute the ethanol, because distilled water has a very high affinity for carbon dioxide. Even though a bicarbonate-puffer system establishes, the pH is rather at the
low end and usually around pH 4-5 in distilled water, so rather acidic. This surely is different in tap-water (assuming it is of certified quality without any additives such as chlorine), especially if it is calcareous. But still, when mixing both fluids,
you shift the dissolving equilibrium, and what you can spot is a lot of fine air bubbles that escape from the mixture (carrying capacity for the physically dissolved gases shifted), and (usually) a fine white precipitation (calcium carbonate).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thus the carbon dioxide likely has more effect than the oxygen on the acidity of the aqueous fraction of the mixture.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Next step: secondary reactions like oxidation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">While ethanol is a rather stable molecule, less stable molecules would be attacked and oxidised first, because their unsaturated polar bindings have the higher affinity to attract electrons. For example, residual formaldehyde
escaping from specimens might be oxidised to formic acid. Same applies to highly polar denaturants like ketones, which are more susceptible to be oxidised. The more such molecules are present and oxidised, the less the ethanol will.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And you less likely can prevent this by mixing the ethanol with N2, because stirring the mixture will also allow other gases to dissolve (unless this is done in a hermetically closed atmosphere). And even if, upon initial
filling or topping, the fluid will have a lot of contact with the surrounding air and will be stirred up, and carbon dioxide and other gases will dissolve etc. ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We you use a big stick to stir the fluids when mixing the ethanol in a drum, we usually mix 60 litres and let it rest for two days until we use it. We have two of these drums, which is sufficiently enough for our daily
work, and we are careful when filling jars to avoid any air bubbles, i.e. we fill in the ethanol slowly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hope this helps,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dirk<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Am 22.06.2021 um 05:12 schrieb Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We typically use a fish bubbler to mix ETOH and water together when we mix up 70% ETOH. We are in the stages of planning a new building, and I recently got the below feedback about doing this – the dangerous goods consultant
says that this has the risk of acidifying the solution, and that using N2 to mix the solution might be a better idea. Do any of you have thoughts on this? If so, I would really appreciate hearing them!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Tonya<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-AU">Email:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">As per our conversation last week, you mentioned that CSIRO plan on using air to bubble through their ethanol solutions to help mix the solution. Can you please confirm if this is correct with CSIRO?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Normally when you mix/bubble air through ethanol solutions, you may run the risk of oxidation of the ethanol, although this reaction is very slow, you may generate some acetylaldehyde and eventually ethanoic acid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Can you confirm with CSIRO if using nitrogen is better? This would still help mix the solutions and would have the added benefit of degassing the ethanol by removing dissolved oxygen from the solution. This long term,
would help minimise the risk of oxidation of the ethanol and generation of acetylaldehyde and eventually ethanoic acid.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-AU">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-AU">Paulo Da Silva</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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neumann(a)snsb.de<br>
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Postanschrift:<br>
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Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns<br>
Zoologische Staatssammlung München<br>
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage<br>
Münchhausenstr. </span><span lang="EN-US">21<br>
81247 München<br>
<br>
Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:<br>
</span><a href="http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/"><span lang="EN-US">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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Dirk Neumann<br>
<br>
Tel: +49-89-8107-111<br>
Fax: +49-89-8107-300<br>
neumann(a)snsb.de<br>
<br>
postal address:<br>
<br>
Bavarian Natural History Collections<br>
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology<br>
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage<br>
Muenchhausenstr. 21<br>
81247 Munich (Germany)<br>
<br>
Visit our section at:<br>
</span><a href="http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/"><span lang="EN-US">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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