<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">This is always a tricky subject when it comes up. Phenoxetiol was originally designed (in the 1960s?) to be dissolved in hot water at 1% and used as a preservative for (mainly) macro-invertebrates. Of course there were many variations on the theme (in concentration) and some adapted Hugh Steedman’s later formula (1976) of his fixative and post-fixation preservative (PFP) which worked well in general (especially histologically) but, the preservative was also found to swell some tissues, making them more gelatinous but still intact - enough to make collection managers nervous! How this affects DNA preservation I am not sure but I would think that it was not a useful recipe in this area!<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If specimens in phenoxetol <u class="">+</u> glycol mixtures were fixed in formalin to start with then they shouldn’t need re-fixing unless they are deemed swollen enough to be fragile. Hopefully this makes sense?<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">With all good wishes, Simon<br class=""><br class="">Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR<br class="">Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,</span><br class=""><br class=""><a href="http://www.natural-history-conservation.com" class="">www.natural-history-conservation.com</a><br class=""><br class=""><span></span><br class=""><span><img apple-inline="yes" id="440669B7-AC87-4A5B-B5AD-5D8FE852B452" src="cid:3543D570-FCD3-4F5F-B04C-2A6D3A8D9E27@home" class=""></span><span><img apple-inline="yes" id="91628B5B-6CDC-47B2-85D4-A69D1C3F0758" src="cid:44ED9140-C81F-497F-B52B-A41A76C7F679@home" class=""></span><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 12 Nov 2021, at 13:52, Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:neumann@snsb.de" class="">neumann@snsb.de</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi Paul,<br class=""><br class="">I think this strongly depends on the recipe: we found 5 different, three of which include addition of saturated (40%) formaldehyde solution. If it would be one of those three, the initial formaldehyde addition should be detectable (e.g. through test strips for formaldehyde).<br class=""><br class="">Another point keeping in mind surely is the osmolarity of the solution, if you move fragile marine invertebrates from phenoxetol into something else (Simon cautioned and mentioned this earlier); but as Tonya was specifically asking for birds in phenoxetol, I thought this would be less relevant.<br class=""><br class="">What has been observed repeatedly in the past (in larger vertebrates) is complete maceration of specimens (which can happen at a sudden, even if specimens were closely monitored). View from that end, I am not sure how well the DNA would be preserved anyway, especially because all recipes we found have up to 80 parts of water (or more). I would assume that this would case strong hydrolysis of the DNA helix right from the start, at least this would be intuitive, but I am really guessing here, and others might have more details or knowledge on this.<br class=""><br class="">But you definitely raise an important point that is definitely worth considering, before you attempt to re-fix specimens with formaldehyde (which were previously in a formaldehyde-free preservative)!<br class=""><br class="">With best wishes<br class="">Dirk<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Am 12.11.2021 um 14:14 schrieb Callomon,Paul:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:BL0PR01MB52204B941C48FD7F0ED5E3C1C3959@BL0PR01MB5220.prod.exchangelabs.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Dirk: do you know (or does anyone else) the effect of Phenoxyethanol on DNA? If it does not degrade it, then we should be aware that refixing in formalin will and that snips should thus be taken ahead of that stage if future gene work is contemplated. <br class=""> <br class=""> <br class="">Paul Callomon<br class="">Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates<br class="">Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University<br class="">1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia PA 19103-1195, USA<br class=""><a href="mailto:prc44@drexel.edu" class="">prc44@drexel.edu</a> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 215-299-1170<br class=""> <br class=""> <br class=""> <br class="">From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu> On Behalf Of Dirk Neumann<br class="">Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 2:53 AM<br class="">To: nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu<br class="">Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Phenoxyethanol<br class=""> <br class="">External.<br class=""><br class="">Dear Tonya,<br class=""> <br class="">several recipes exist and have been used in collections since the mid 1950ies, mainly for marine invertebrates, but no only. Simon Moore published on it back in 1999 and colleagues from the NHM in London may chip-in.<br class=""> <br class="">John Simmons also has a own section on phenoxetol in his Fluid Preservation book (pages 69-70)<br class=""> <br class="">The recommendation we give in our forthcoming book is that specimens from phenoxetol should first be re-fixed in a 4% formaldehyde solution for few days (depending on specimen size, body mass etc.) and then stepped up from 30-50-70% EtOH. This seems to have worked fine, but this experience so far refers exclusively to elasmobranchs, which tend to behave slightly different to fixatives and preservatives compared to, for example, bony fish (likely because of the cartilage). Close monitoring during stepping specimens up surely is advised.<br class=""> <br class=""> <br class="">Hope this helps<br class="">Dirk<br class=""> <br class=""> <br class=""> <br class="">Am 12.11.2021 um 01:43 schrieb Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace):<br class="">Hello all,<br class=""> <br class="">We just come upon some bird specimens in our collection that have been preserved with Phenoxyethanol. There are no notes on its concentration. The fluid needs to be changed over. I think we should change it to 70% ETOH, but I am not sure if we should slowly step up the concentration, or if another solution would be preferable?<br class=""> <br class="">Thanks!<br class=""> <br class="">Tonya<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Nhcoll-l mailing list<br class="">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu<br class="">https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l<br class=""> <br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of<br class="">Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose<br class="">mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of<br class="">natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to<br class="">society. See http://www.spnhc.org for membership information.<br class="">Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.<br class=""> <br class=""><br class="">-- <br class=""><span id="cid:part1.cFIjzQKX.kJ08lH4i@snsb.de"><image001.png></span><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Dirk Neumann<br class=""><br class="">Tel: 089 / 8107-111<br class="">Fax: 089 / 8107-300<br class="">neumann(a)snsb.de<br class=""><br class="">Postanschrift:<br class=""><br class="">Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns<br class="">Zoologische Staatssammlung München<br class="">Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage<br class="">Münchhausenstr. 21<br class="">81247 München<br class=""><br class="">Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:<br class="">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/<br class=""><br class="">---------<br class=""><br class="">Dirk Neumann<br class=""><br class="">Tel: +49-89-8107-111<br class="">Fax: +49-89-8107-300<br class="">neumann(a)snsb.de<br class=""><br class="">postal address:<br class=""><br class="">Bavarian Natural History Collections<br class="">The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology<br class="">Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage<br class="">Muenchhausenstr. 21<br class="">81247 Munich (Germany)<br class=""><br class="">Visit our section at:<br class="">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">-- <br class=""><span id="cid:part2.RAU6BHnp.TrVOqQwx@snsb.de"><AgnoFIw0PWD90Cw2.png></span><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Dirk Neumann<br class=""><br class="">Tel: 089 / 8107-111<br class="">Fax: 089 / 8107-300<br class="">neumann(a)<a href="http://snsb.de" class="">snsb.de</a><br class=""><br class="">Postanschrift:<br class=""><br class="">Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns<br class="">Zoologische Staatssammlung München<br class="">Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage<br class="">Münchhausenstr. 21<br class="">81247 München<br class=""><br class="">Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:<br class="">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/<br class=""><br class="">---------<br class=""><br class="">Dirk Neumann<br class=""><br class="">Tel: +49-89-8107-111<br class="">Fax: +49-89-8107-300<br class="">neumann(a)snsb.de<br class=""><br class="">postal address:<br class=""><br class="">Bavarian Natural History Collections<br class="">The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology<br class="">Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage<br class="">Muenchhausenstr. 21<br class="">81247 Munich (Germany)<br class=""><br class="">Visit our section at:<br class="">http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Nhcoll-l mailing list<br class="">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu<br class="">https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l<br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of<br class="">Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose<br class="">mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of<br class="">natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to<br class="">society. See http://www.spnhc.org for membership information.<br class="">Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""></div></div></div></body></html>