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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Andy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Drum cart. Amazing idea
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">đ</span><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">. Yes itâs the âwhere would we put 200L of ETOHâ? And âhow would we get the drum high enough to dispense it, while being
able to fill itâ? that have been the blockers, so that might be a great solution. We will move to a new system in a year or two when we move to a new building, but⌠it makes me realise that we could prepare better for that eventuality as well.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We actually do already have the Anton Paar meter you mention. May I ask how long you wait to use your ETOH after bubbling?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Tonya<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Bentley, Andrew Charles <abentley@ku.edu>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 15 September 2022 12:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace) <Tonya.Haff@csiro.au>; Robert Waller <rw@protectheritage.com>; John E Simmons <simmons.johne@gmail.com>; Simon Moore <couteaufin@btinternet.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> NHCOLL-new <nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Nhcoll-l] Mixing EtOH, new question!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Tonya, all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Our digital alcohol concentration meter (Anton Paar DMA 35n â an older version of this
<a href="https://www.coleparmer.com/i/anton-paar-dma-35-v4-digital-density-specific-gravity-meter/2575060">
https://www.coleparmer.com/i/anton-paar-dma-35-v4-digital-density-specific-gravity-meter/2575060</a>) takes account of temperature in its readings thus ensuring an accurate measure of concentration. We usually take readings immediately after bubbling for an
hour or so after mixing and then a couple of times thereafter as a check. We have not found any anomalies in this practice we have been following for many years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would assume that this process would work efficiently in any volume and so would assume that you could mix 70% ethanol in a 55 gallon drum in the same manner. You could measure out 95% ethanol to fill the drum to the
necessary level and then add deionized water and mix by bubbling. You could then decant directly out of the 55 gallon drum for filling larger containers. There are drum carts that you can use to move these larger drums and to fill directly from them -
<a href="https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-4203/Drum-Handling/Steel-Drum-Cradle-55-Gallon">
https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-4203/Drum-Handling/Steel-Drum-Cradle-55-Gallon</a> or even
<a href="https://www.jmesales.com/lubeworks-3-1-mobile-oil-dispensing-kit-w-hose-reel-55-gallon-drums">
https://www.jmesales.com/lubeworks-3-1-mobile-oil-dispensing-kit-w-hose-reel-55-gallon-drums</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> A : A : A :<br>
}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°><br>
V V V<br>
Andy Bentley<br>
Ichthyology Collection Manager<br>
University of Kansas<br>
Biodiversity Institute<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dyche Hall<br>
<a href="x-apple-data-detectors://9/"><span style="color:#0563C1">1345 Jayhawk Boulevard</span></a><br>
<a href="x-apple-data-detectors://9/"><span style="color:#0563C1">Lawrence, KS, 66045-7561</span></a><br>
<a href="x-apple-data-detectors://9/"><span style="color:#0563C1">USA</span></a><br>
<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%28785%29%20864-3863" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">(785) 864-3863</span></a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%28785%29%20864-5335" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">(785) 864-5335</span></a> <br>
Email: <a href="mailto:abentley@ku.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">abentley@ku.edu</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ORCID: <span style="color:#494A4C;background:white">
<a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3093-1258"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3093-1258</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1">http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> A : A : A :<br>
}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°><br>
V V V<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 13, 2022 6:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Waller <<a href="mailto:rw@protectheritage.com">rw@protectheritage.com</a>>; John E Simmons <<a href="mailto:simmons.johne@gmail.com">simmons.johne@gmail.com</a>>; Simon Moore <<a href="mailto:couteaufin@btinternet.com">couteaufin@btinternet.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> NHCOLL-new <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Mixing EtOH, new question!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Hey Rob, John and Simon,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Thanks so much for your detailed feedback about mixing EtOH, I really appreciate it. Rob, I like your idea of systematically trying out different mixing methods with the thought that
it could be a cool posted at next year's SPNHC meeting. We used to use a bubble to mix ETOH and water and then wait 24 hrs, but stopped because of some concern (from the NHCOLL list) that using the bubbler would acidify the mixture. However, I feel pretty
placated by your responses regarding this now. Since my email we have tried bubbling again and found that it is much more efficient at homogenising the mixture than simply inverting and gently shaking the containers (which is what we were doing after we stopped
bubbling). Anyway, I will get more systematic about this but it is quite an interesting learning process! Our challenge now is also to figure out how to mix substantial amounts of 70% EtOH that aren't too hard to manage. We are about to be working a lot on
specimens in drums, which often require large amounts of EtOH to be added...so 20L doesn't really last all that long, and it's a major break in work flow to have to then wait >24 hrs for a new batch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and advice!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Tonya<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span lang="EN-US">
<hr size="1" width="98%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"> Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>> on behalf of Robert Waller <<a href="mailto:rw@protectheritage.com">rw@protectheritage.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 10 September 2022 8:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Simmons <<a href="mailto:simmons.johne@gmail.com">simmons.johne@gmail.com</a>>; Simon Moore <<a href="mailto:couteaufin@btinternet.com">couteaufin@btinternet.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> NHCOLL-new <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Mixing EtOH, new question!</span><span lang="EN-US">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Now our conversation has touched on three effects resulting from mixing that all lead to density readings of recently mixed ethanol-water combinations indicating a higher ethanol concentration than the resulting homogenous
and temperature equilibrated solutions would have:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="xmsolistparagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-CA">Higher temperature leads to lower density leads to higher interpreted ethanol concentration (more true for simple hydrometers than digital density meters which
indicate (and may account for) temperature.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="xmsolistparagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-CA">Tiny gas bubble formation mostly from reduced solubility of gasses in the solution than in water (I think) but also from temperature increase.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="xmsolistparagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-CA">Not all contraction-on-solution has been realized until dissolution is complete (measured density remains lower than final density until dissolution is complete.)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-CA">It is unfortunate that all these effects are in the same direction, leading to higher apparent ethanol concentrations. This reminds us of the importance of checking concentrations after sufficient mixing and elapsed
time.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Rob</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John E Simmons<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 9, 2022 5:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Simon Moore <<a href="mailto:couteaufin@btinternet.com">couteaufin@btinternet.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> NHCOLL-new <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Mixing EtOH, new question!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Simon,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Good question. When I mixed ETOH in the carboy in the lab at Kansas the container became warm to the touch, but I never measured how much warmer. However,
looking around the internet I found this:</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black"><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu%2Fpresentations%2Fmixing-ethanol-and-water&data=05%7C01%7Cabentley%40ku.edu%7Cef489af7cb4c4b1bb88008da95e1e38f%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637987094696274184%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PvS8JWMx%2FtZ1BNbRV%2BRl1%2FtUoNPAzNzTbljidxMDCRE%3D&reserved=0"><span style="color:#0563C1">https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/mixing-ethanol-and-water</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Mixing Ethanol and Water
</span></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Ethanol and water are mixed in volumetric glassware, showing a volume decrease and a temperature increase.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Two 250 ml graduated cylinders are filled to the line with water and ethanol (100%). A temperature probe shows both at room temperature. The temperature
probe is then moved to an empty 500 ml graduated cylinder, and the contents of the two smaller cylinders poured simultaneously to mix well. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">The temperature of the mixture rises about 8°C</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">,
and the <b>volume decreases to 480 ml</b> just after mixing, clearly visible on the scale of the 500 ml cylinder.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">--John</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Wed, Sep 7, 2022 at 6:54 PM Simon Moore <<a href="mailto:couteaufin@btinternet.com">couteaufin@btinternet.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US">This discussion has raised many interesting corollaries (many thanks Tonya, Rob, John and everyone else) - the temporary and partial re-separation of the alcohol mixture due to the physical properties of binary azeotropes,
the argument about whether 70% or 80% alcohol is the best and what I have long wondered about - the enthalpy: temporary raising of temperature of the mixture. I knew that this occurred but was told (long ago!) that it was about 0.00001 deg. C, almost negligible
but enough to cause the air bubble release.<br>
<br>
So my new question is - has anyone managed to measure or calculate for, say, 25 litres of alcohol being diluted to 70%, how many degrees would the temperature be raised? I have never actually noticed it but I have been mixing 2.5 litre batches in glass bottles
and never stopped to dip a thermometer in the mixture before and after mixing! <br>
<br>
With all good wishes, Simon<br>
<br>
Simon Moore MIScT, RSci, FLS, ACR<br>
Conservator of Natural Sciences and Cutlery Historian,<br>
<br>
<a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.natural-history-conservation.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cabentley%40ku.edu%7Cef489af7cb4c4b1bb88008da95e1e38f%7C3c176536afe643f5b96636feabbe3c1a%7C0%7C0%7C637987094696274184%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=obD5zef2GJMFFoWOHZhomVOS4HdFe3Z1l2bwA%2F4CtUs%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">www.natural-history-conservation.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> On 7 Sep 2022, at 22:19, Andrew Stewart <<a href="mailto:AndrewS@tepapa.govt.nz" target="_blank">AndrewS@tepapa.govt.nz</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Hi Tonya,<br>
> <br>
> Yes, I used to have to decant and re-pour a dozen times to get the solution evenly mixed. Hardly ideal.<br>
> <br>
> Now we decant 70% ethanol from two 50 litre carboys on a trolley. The alcohol is pumped in first, then the water added as the pressure seems to get it right to the bottom. Then the home-made tool (we call the âsuper swizzlerâ) is plunged up & down several
times to ensure everything is thoroughly mixed. The âwingsâ are made of plastic cut from n icecream container J, and flex to get past the narrow mouth. The concentration is then checked and so far it seems to work.<br>
> <br>
> The larger black one for mixing alcohol in our 250 & 500 l tanks.<br>
> <br>
> Sometimes a home-made solution works just fine.<br>
> <br>
> NgÄ mihi<br>
> Andrew Stewart<br>
> <br>
> >><<<)o><br>
> Assistant Curator NE (Fishes)<br>
> Museum of New Zealand<br>
> 04 381 7314<br>
> 027 7339363<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> From: Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>> On Behalf Of Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace)<br>
> Sent: Wednesday, 7 September 2022 1:40 PM<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
> Subject: [Nhcoll-l] Mixing EtOH<br>
> <br>
> Hello all,<br>
> <br>
> I have a question about mixing storage strength (70%) undenatured EtOH. Typically we add the correct proportions of 95% EtOH and water to a container and paddle or invert the container repeatedly to mix the liquids, and allow it to sit for ~24+ hrs. The containers
we like best to use for dispensing 70% EtOH are 20L plastic water containers with a tap at the bottom. Recently we used our digital alcohol meter to test the alcohol concentration from the top and bottom (tap) of one of these containers and found the alcohol
concentrations wildly different - ~80% at the top and ~60% at the bottom â despite having been mixed more than 24 hours earlier. This makes me really concerned that we could be regularly using concentrations that are much above 70% with specimens. I wonder
if any of you have had a similar problem, or if anyone can suggest a solution? Is there a better way of mixing or of ensuring the solution is properly combined? Any thoughts appreciated.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Thank you!<br>
> <br>
> Cheers,<br>
> <br>
> Tonya<br>
> -------------------------------------------------<br>
> Dr. Tonya M. Haff<br>
> Collection Manager<br>
> Australian National Wildlife Collection<br>
> CSIRO<br>
> +61(0)419569109<br>
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