<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">I also agree with Andy. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">While it is true that you can learn what you need to be a good collection manager on the job, a degree in museum studies gives an immediate advantage in terms of an overall understanding of museum history and function and museum theory and practice. I have taught museum studies classes for 25 years at four universities on two continents (and was the Director of the Museum Studies Program at the University of Kansas from 2201-2007) and have tracked the progress of many students in the museum profession. The museum studies degree gives a definite advantage. For those who already have a masters or PhD and are looking at collection management as a career, I strongly recommend getting at least a graduate certificate in museum studies.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">--John<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br clear="all"></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">John E. Simmons<br>Writer and Museum Consultant</span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font size="2"><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Museologica<br><i>and</i><br>Investigador Asociado, Departamento de Ornitologia<br>Museo de Historia Natural, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima</span></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 2:32 PM Tacker, Christopher <<a href="mailto:christopher.tacker@naturalsciences.org">christopher.tacker@naturalsciences.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-3955547258379421450">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I have to second Andy Bentley -"</span><span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;color:rgb(36,36,36);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">skills
that require a high level of competency and training.</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">" The vibe I get from the Ivory Tower is that "anyone can do that." After trying to salvage academics'
collections when they retire, I can assure you that not everyone can do the job. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">It is a profession with a proud history.
</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I'm like the idea of certifications or training that will allow us to argue for higher pay for our Collection Managers
and staff.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Chris Tacker</span></div>
<div style="font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
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<div><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Chris Tacker<i> (he, him, his)</i></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Research Curator, Geology |
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9.75pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Ph.D.</span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences | 11 West Jones Street | Raleigh, NC 27601-1029</span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px"><br>
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<div id="m_-3955547258379421450divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>> on behalf of Bentley, Andrew Charles <<a href="mailto:abentley@ku.edu" target="_blank">abentley@ku.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 23, 2024 2:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Liath Appleton <<a href="mailto:liathappleton@gmail.com" target="_blank">liathappleton@gmail.com</a>>; Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de" target="_blank">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [External] Re: [Nhcoll-l] [KU SUSPECT SPAM] Re: [EXTERN] Re: Collection management: trade or profession?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div style="background-color:rgb(255,235,156);width:100%;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(156,101,0);border-width:1pt;padding:2pt;font-size:10pt;line-height:12pt;font-family:"Calibri";color:black;text-align:left">
<span style="color:rgb(255,0,0);font-weight:bold">CAUTION:</span> External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless verified. Report suspicious emails with the Report Message button located on your Outlook menu bar on the Home tab.</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt">A Museum Studies Master’s degree is exactly that. Provides a theoretical and practical basis for collection management. This is however only one route into collection management.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt">Its is also safe to say that the “profession” of collection management has changed dramatically over the last 15-20 years with a lot of emphasis on digital skills – databases, digitization, data manipulation,
imaging, data publishing, etc. – skills that require a high level of competency and training.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt">Andy</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11pt"> A : A : A :<br>
}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°><br>
V V V<br>
Andy Bentley<br>
Ichthyology Collection Manager<br>
University of Kansas<br>
Biodiversity Institute</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11pt">Dyche Hall<br>
<a><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">1345 Jayhawk Boulevard</span></a><br>
<a><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">Lawrence, KS, 66045-7561</span></a><br>
<a><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">USA</span></a><br>
<br>
Tel: <a href="tel:%28785%29%20864-3863" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">(785) 864-3863</span></a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%28785%29%20864-5335" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">(785) 864-5335</span></a> <br>
Email: <a href="mailto:abentley@ku.edu" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">abentley@ku.edu</span></a> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt">ORCID: </span><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(73,74,76);background:white"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3093-1258" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3093-1258</span></a></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-AU" style="font-size:11pt"><a href="http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://ichthyology.biodiversity.ku.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11pt"></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt"> A : A : A :<br>
}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<(((_°>.,.,.,.}<)))_°><br>
V V V</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Nhcoll-l <<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Liath Appleton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 23, 2024 12:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de" target="_blank">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [KU SUSPECT SPAM] Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERN] Re: Collection management: trade or profession?</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p>Librarians are very similar to Collections Managers. How are Librarians classified? In the US, qualifications vary, but I think most positions require a master's degree in Library Sciences. That is not an option for Collections Managers,
at least not yet. </p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 11:54<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de" target="_blank">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
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<div>
<p>aha - more details to answer the question.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Payment-wise, there is a difference at least in Germany:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>A profound technical educated BTA would receive a higher payment level then a biology bachelor that did not continue to complete the masters degree. The same applies for good amateurs (e.g. in entomology), which often are highly, skilled,
but do not have the 'technical education' that would lift them onto a higher payment level.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>The payment level for a researcher in Germany is E13 (curator), that of an BTA is E9, and that of a bachelor or amateur may start at E6 or E8.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>A professional (master) gardener in a botanic garden however may start at E5 or E6, even though the degree as a trade master as recognised profession is equivalent at least with a bachelor's degree at university.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Another problem that we have is that at the moment, there is no such education as 'collection manager' you could graduate from. In the US and here in Europe, there are Museum Studies programmes, but this is something different. A good
starting point would be having the possibility to qualify as a proper 'collection manager' as profession. Senckenberg in Frankfurt does this. Perhaps this would be a suited example for your test case?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>With best wishes</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dirk</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Am 23.02.2024 um 18:40 schrieb Callomon,Paul:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div style="border:1pt solid black;padding:2pt">
<p align="center" style="text-align:center;line-height:12pt;background:rgb(239,125,0)">
<span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Poppins;color:white">ACHTUNG/ATTENTION:</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Poppins;color:black"> Diese E-Mail stammt von einem externen Absender. / This e-mail comes from an external sender.</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black">Part of the reason for the question is to bring these words into focus. For some folks, "professional" simply means "paid," and not "amateur." That's not its actual meaning, though - there are
no amateur surgeons or professional carpenters. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black">The distinction is important, because we should be thinking harder about creating more pathways into museum collections management. At present, the requirements and compensation vary so widely
between individual institutions that it's impossible to say whether this is something that someone with, say, a high school diploma or an associate's degree could aspire to. If it isn't - if to be a CM you need a master's or PhD or "equivalent" - then it's
a profession, and we are likely to see the same demographic as in the other professions. At least we would, if being a CM paid like being a doctor or lawyer...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-3955547258379421450x_m_-5514561597790829178Signature">
<div id="m_-3955547258379421450x_m_-5514561597790829178divtagdefaultwrapper">
<p><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Paul Callomon</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<i>Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates</i></span></p>
<div align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</div>
<p><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, Philadelphia</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<i><a href="mailto:callomon@ansp.org" target="_blank">callomon@ansp.org</a> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 215-299-1170</i></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div align="center" style="text-align:center">
<hr size="2" width="98%" align="center">
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<div id="m_-3955547258379421450x_m_-5514561597790829178divRplyFwdMsg">
<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Nhcoll-l
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank"><nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu></a> on behalf of Douglas Yanega
<a href="mailto:dyanega@gmail.com" target="_blank"><dyanega@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 23, 2024 12:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank"><nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Collection management: trade or profession?</span>
</p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width:100%">
<tbody>
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<td style="border-width:medium medium medium 3pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor goldenrod;background:cornsilk;padding:0in 3pt">
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps;color:black">External.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps"></span></b></p>
</td>
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<div>
<p>On 2/23/24 8:34 AM, Callomon,Paul wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li style="color:black;list-style-type:"- ""><span style="font-size:11pt">Is collection management a trade or a profession? What's the difference?</span></li></ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I imagine that most people you asked "What's the difference between a trade and a profession?" could not give a clear and coherent answer discriminating between them. If I had not seen the definitions you posted, I don't think I could have answered this
question, myself, despite 25 years as a collection manager. Frankly, off the top of my head, I would have said that a profession is what you get paid to do - i.e., that's what distinguishes a professional from an amateur. In that sense, trade and profession
are synonymous, since I can't imagine calling something a trade if it is not a source of income.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm not disputing the definitions you gave, just saying that that particular distinction is not intuitive, given the various uses of the word "professional".</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum</pre>
<pre>Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega</pre>
<pre>phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)</pre>
<pre> <a href="https://faculty.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html" target="_blank">https://faculty.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html</a></pre>
<pre> "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness</pre>
<pre> is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82</pre>
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<p>-- </p>
<div>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">****</span></b></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span></b></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Dirk Neumann</span></b></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Collection Manager, Hamburg</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Postal address:</span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Museum of Nature Hamburg</span></b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,134,105)">Leibniz Institute for the Analysis</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif;color:rgb(0,134,105)">of Biodiversity Change</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Dirk Neumann</span></p>
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<p><u><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif;color:blue"><a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de" target="_blank">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a></span></u></p>
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<p>-- <br>
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels<br>
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany<br>
<br>
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;<br>
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)<br>
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn<br>
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<a href="https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l" target="_blank">https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose<br>
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of<br>
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to<br>
society. See <a href="http://www.spnhc.org/" target="_blank">
http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership information.<br>
Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.</p>
</blockquote>
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</div>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Nhcoll-l mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose<br>
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of<br>
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to<br>
society. See <a href="http://www.spnhc.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership information.<br>
Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.<br>
</div></blockquote></div>