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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Good point to bring up Librarians, Liath!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Interesting to note that in the US, in a lot of libraries, the librarians have professionalized in a similar manner to doctors and lawyers. And interestingly, many librarians have tenure. A librarian
at an academic library can have tenure and teach courses! Many public school systems in the US also have tenure, but this is usually guaranteed by a union contract, and most library systems with tenure (I think) do not have union representation.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">I think that there are some important distinctions between Librarians and museum Collection Managers (largely, collection managers deal primarily with one-of-a-kind objects that have varied storage
needs and usually they need specific subject knowledge, whereas librarians primarily deal with objects that are not unique and fairly homogenous in their care requirements. But both have similar responsibilities and workflows. Archivists are probably more
comparable in terms of variety of responsibility, and they are usually but not always librarians by training.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">Another interesting thing to consider is that many librarians do not have a professional credential beyond a bachelors. The MLIS was, as I understand it, a fairly recent development that was
concomitant with the field professionalizing and adding (for better or worse) barriers to entry to newcomers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">-Nate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">--</span><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:13.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333"><img width="224" height="45" style="width:2.3333in;height:.4687in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01DA6659.11452E80" alt="The Ohio State University"><br></span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#BB0000;background:white">Nathaniel F. Shoobs</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333"><br>Curator of Mollusks<br></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#BB0000;background:white">College of Arts & Sciences</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333"> Dept. of Evolution, Ecology, and Organismal Biology<br>Museum of Biological Diversity, 1315 Kinnear Rd, Columbus, OH 43212<br>614-688-1342 (Office)<br><a href="http://mbd.osu.edu"><span style="color:#0563C1;background:white">mbd.osu.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of Dirk Neumann <d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, February 23, 2024 at 1:05 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Liath Appleton <liathappleton@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b>nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu <nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERN] Re: Collection management: trade or profession?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:106%;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;mso-line-height-alt:.75pt"><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">Good match! In Germany again, you can start this as an education (3 years), but you can also study this at university Am 23. 02. 2024 um 19: 00
schrieb Liath Appleton: Librarians are very similar to Collections Managers. How are Librarians classified?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal">Good match!<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In Germany again, you can start this as an education (3 years), but you can also study this at university<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Am 23.02.2024 um 19:00 schrieb Liath Appleton:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Librarians are very similar to Collections Managers. How are Librarians classified? In the US, qualifications vary, but I think most positions require a master's degree in Library Sciences. That is not an option for Collections Managers,
at least not yet. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 11:54 AM Dirk Neumann <<a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">aha - more details to answer the question.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Payment-wise, there is a difference at least in Germany:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A profound technical educated BTA would receive a higher payment level then a biology bachelor that did not continue to complete the masters degree. The same applies for good amateurs (e.g. in entomology), which often are highly, skilled,
but do not have the 'technical education' that would lift them onto a higher payment level.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The payment level for a researcher in Germany is E13 (curator), that of an BTA is E9, and that of a bachelor or amateur may start at E6 or E8.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A professional (master) gardener in a botanic garden however may start at E5 or E6, even though the degree as a trade master as recognised profession is equivalent at least with a bachelor's degree at university.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Another problem that we have is that at the moment, there is no such education as 'collection manager' you could graduate from. In the US and here in Europe, there are Museum Studies programmes, but this is something different. A good starting
point would be having the possibility to qualify as a proper 'collection manager' as profession. Senckenberg in Frankfurt does this. Perhaps this would be a suited example for your test case?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">With best wishes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dirk<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Am 23.02.2024 um 18:40 schrieb Callomon,Paul:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Poppins;color:white">ACHTUNG/ATTENTION:</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Poppins;color:black"> Diese E-Mail stammt von einem externen Absender. / This e-mail comes from an external sender.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Part of the reason for the question is to bring these words into focus. For some folks, "professional" simply means "paid," and not "amateur." That's not its actual meaning, though - there are no amateur surgeons
or professional carpenters. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The distinction is important, because we should be thinking harder about creating more pathways into museum collections management. At present, the requirements and compensation vary so widely between individual
institutions that it's impossible to say whether this is something that someone with, say, a high school diploma or an associate's degree could aspire to. If it isn't - if to be a CM you need a master's or PhD or "equivalent" - then it's a profession, and
we are likely to see the same demographic as in the other professions. At least we would, if being a CM paid like being a doctor or lawyer...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Paul Callomon</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<i>Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates</i></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:106%"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, Philadelphia</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<i><a href="mailto:callomon@ansp.org" target="_blank">callomon@ansp.org</a> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 215-299-1170</i></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Nhcoll-l
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank"><nhcoll-l-bounces@mailman.yale.edu></a> on behalf of Douglas Yanega
<a href="mailto:dyanega@gmail.com" target="_blank"><dyanega@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 23, 2024 12:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a>
<a href="mailto:nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank"><nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Nhcoll-l] Collection management: trade or profession?</span>
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<p><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps;color:black">External.</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/23/24 8:34 AM, Callomon,Paul wrote:<span style="font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p>I imagine that most people you asked "What's the difference between a trade and a profession?" could not give a clear and coherent answer discriminating between them. If I had not seen the definitions you posted, I don't think I could have answered this
question, myself, despite 25 years as a collection manager. Frankly, off the top of my head, I would have said that a profession is what you get paid to do - i.e., that's what distinguishes a professional from an amateur. In that sense, trade and profession
are synonymous, since I can't imagine calling something a trade if it is not a source of income.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:106%"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>I'm not disputing the definitions you gave, just saying that that particular distinction is not intuitive, given the various uses of the word "professional".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Peace.<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Doug Yanega Dept. of Entomology Entomology Research Museum<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Univ. of California, Riverside, CA 92521-0314 skype: dyanega<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>phone: (951) 827-4315 (disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/faculty.ucr.edu/*heraty/yanega.html__;fg!!KGKeukY!y6puQh5Ecl8NQdHH_OM_1YbvPxEIwbcgcJUxklbjn4S2pQBfcUYOpQOQSFXBj_NMUswozPSX49Clnaq1s1qp06PnMA$" target="_blank">https://faculty.ucr.edu/~heraty/yanega.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nhcoll-l mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>society. See <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.spnhc.org__;!!KGKeukY!y6puQh5Ecl8NQdHH_OM_1YbvPxEIwbcgcJUxklbjn4S2pQBfcUYOpQOQSFXBj_NMUswozPSX49Clnaq1s1o8hIfdlA$" target="_blank">http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership information.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">****</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Dirk Neumann</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Collection Manager, Hamburg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Postal address:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Museum of Nature Hamburg</span></b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="color:#008669">Leibniz Institute for the Analysis</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif;color:#008669">of Biodiversity Change</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Dirk Neumann</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">20146 Hamburg<br>
+49 40 238 317 – 628</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif;color:blue"><a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de" target="_blank">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.leibniz-lib.de__;!!KGKeukY!y6puQh5Ecl8NQdHH_OM_1YbvPxEIwbcgcJUxklbjn4S2pQBfcUYOpQOQSFXBj_NMUswozPSX49Clnaq1s1qc0aqxEA$">www.leibniz-lib.de</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">--
<br>
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels<br>
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany<br>
<br>
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;<br>
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)<br>
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn<br>
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels<br>
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany<br>
<br>
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;<br>
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)<br>
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn<br>
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu" target="_blank">Nhcoll-l@mailman.yale.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l__;!!KGKeukY!y6puQh5Ecl8NQdHH_OM_1YbvPxEIwbcgcJUxklbjn4S2pQBfcUYOpQOQSFXBj_NMUswozPSX49Clnaq1s1owWYiBpA$" target="_blank">https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of<br>
Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose<br>
mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of<br>
natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to<br>
society. See <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.spnhc.org__;!!KGKeukY!y6puQh5Ecl8NQdHH_OM_1YbvPxEIwbcgcJUxklbjn4S2pQBfcUYOpQOQSFXBj_NMUswozPSX49Clnaq1s1o8hIfdlA$" target="_blank">
http://www.spnhc.org</a> for membership information.<br>
Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal">-- <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">****</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Dirk Neumann</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Collection Manager, Hamburg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Postal address:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Museum of Nature Hamburg</span></b><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="color:#008669">Leibniz Institute for the Analysis</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif;color:#008669">of Biodiversity Change</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Dirk Neumann</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">Martin-Luther-King-Platz 3</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">20146 Hamburg<br>
+49 40 238 317 – 628</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><u><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif;color:blue"><a href="mailto:d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de">d.neumann@leibniz-lib.de</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">www.leibniz-lib.de</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif">--
<br>
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels<br>
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany<br>
<br>
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;<br>
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)<br>
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn<br>
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Source Sans Pro",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif">--
<br>
Stiftung Leibniz-Institut zur Analyse des Biodiversitätswandels<br>
Postanschrift: Adenauerallee 127, 53113 Bonn, Germany<br>
<br>
Stiftung des öffentlichen Rechts;<br>
Generaldirektion: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Misof (Generaldirektor), Adrian Grüter (Kaufm. Geschäftsführer)<br>
Sitz der Stiftung: Adenauerallee 160 in Bonn<br>
Vorsitzender des Stiftungsrates: Dr. Michael Wappelhorst<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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