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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">This question and the comments on it have been really interesting and helpful to me--beyond the specifics of the initial question. It’s great to have such colleagues as you
all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Matthew B<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> YUL-NACO <yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bourassa, Dominique<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers <yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi Hannelore,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Thank you for confirming the original of De Baer. Your comment about Belgium being a difficult case is true. I think it can also apply to other countries like Switzerland that have more than one official language. It is also true because people are moving across
borders. It’s not always easy to know how to treat a compound name or a name with a prefix because we do not always know the origin of a person’s name or where a person was born. There are so many variables.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Unfortunately, it seems RDA wants us to write de and van. The basic instruction for names of agents and places (A.2.1) states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">“In general, capitalize the first word of each name. Capitalize other words by applying the guidelines at <a href="https://original.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdaappa&target=rdaa-369#rdaa-369"><b>A.10</b><b><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="31" height="13" style="width:.3263in;height:.1319in" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image002.png@01DBD541.0A185940"></span></b></a>–<a href="https://original.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdaappa&target=rdaa-2383#rdaa-2383"><b>A.55</b><b><span style="text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="31" height="13" style="width:.3263in;height:.1319in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image002.png@01DBD541.0A185940"></span></b></a>,
as applicable to the language involved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">For names with unusual capitalization, follow the capitalization of the commonly known form.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Following this instruction brings us to RDA A.38.2 for Dutch name that instructs us to “Capitalize the prefixes <i>de</i>, <i>ten</i>, <i>van</i>,
<span style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">if not preceded</span> by the Christian name.”
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Since in the access point De Baer is preceded by a Christian name, Marcel, we cannot capitalize the prefix at the end of the access point. Sorry about that. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dominique<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> YUL-NACO <<a href="mailto:yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Segers, Hannelore<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers <<a href="mailto:yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Wheat,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">After doing a little bit more digging, De Baer is definitely a last name of Dutch (Germanic etymologically) origin. Belgium can be a bit of a difficult case since some people living in the Flemish part of the country
can have last names of French origin (and the reverse can also be true of course).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Just a quick note, though, about the capitalization of De. The rule in Flemish is that we capitalize the "De" and "Van" prefixes in names (except in some very rare exceptions—one of them is in the case of nobility).
Dutch generally does not capitalize these prefixes. Unless RDA does not allow it, I would personally keep the "De" capitalized to reflect Flemish use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hannelore<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="elementtoproof"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Hannelore Segers, PhD</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="elementtoproof"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Early Materials Cataloger</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="elementtoproof"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="elementtoproof"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:#0563C1"><a href="mailto:hannelore.segers@yale.edu">hannelore.segers@yale.edu</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="elementtoproof"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri Light",sans-serif;color:black">she/her</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> YUL-NACO <<a href="mailto:yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn <<a href="mailto:tachtorn.meier@yale.edu">tachtorn.meier@yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers <<a href="mailto:yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Hi Mara,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions—now it all makes sense!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book
that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">So now we know how to construct AAP for this person!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Wheat<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> YUL-NACO <<a href="mailto:yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
on behalf of Caelin, Mara <<a href="mailto:mara.caelin@yale.edu">mara.caelin@yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers <<a href="mailto:yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Hi Wheat,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the
second category mentioned in the example.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Hope that is helpful!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Mara<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Mara Caelin</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">
<i>(she/her/hers)</i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Catalog/Metadata Librarian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Bibliographic Description Unit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Yale University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> YUL-NACO <<a href="mailto:yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco-bounces@mailman.yale.edu</a>>
on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn <<a href="mailto:tachtorn.meier@yale.edu">tachtorn.meier@yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers <<a href="mailto:yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu">yul-naco@mailman.yale.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [yul-naco] AAP for French name<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Hi!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither
of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Wheat<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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