Gem perfect Red Admrials

JH jhimmel at connix.com
Thu Jun 21 12:25:19 EDT 2001


Hi all, 

Before this gets out of hand, I have a request.  

A debate about collecting will do nothing but get people riled up.  No collector is going to convince someone who doesn't like killing butterflies that it is okay to do so.  No anti-collector is going to convince someone who kills butterflies that it is wrong to do so.  If you put all the science of it aside, it always boils down to where people draw the line when it comes to taking a life.  And you can put the science aside because neither side can claim to corner the market on adding to our collective knowledge.  Bottom line: There is not a person on this list who has the influence, gift of word, psychic powers, whatever, to change the opposing faction's deep felt convictions with an E-mail message.  The internet is a great tool, but here is one of its limitations.    

On the more "worldwide" LEPS-L listserve (also administered by Larry Gall), this polarizing debate continues to surface and aggravate people.  We just recently went through another long, frustrating round.  The end result? - again - more pissed off people digging in their heels.  I perceive the LEPS-L server as a cold place.  There's too much grandstanding by the same people over and over.  Many times I have come close to dropping of this list because I am sick of this topic - as are many!  Why do I stay on?  For the occasional interesting piece of info that I'm able to glean when the subject gets to more useful topics.  

Our CT-Leps list has always had a more friendly feel to it.  It feels more like "family".  We get some science, a little humor, lots of data sharing, Q&A, event updates, enjoyable essays, and the like.  As someone who has promoted this list (in the CBA Newsletter and word of mouth), I'm making this one attempt in my request to keep it this way.  If you want to argue about collecting, may I suggest you do so in private (but not to me!) email responses?  This way, those of us who are on both lists can appreciate the CT server as a sanctuary from what always turns into a futile and vitriolic exchange.

Again, this is only a request from someone who still enjoys seeing the CT-Leps tag in my inbox.

Best - 

John Himmelman

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John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
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Visit my websites at:
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-----Original Message-----
From: Grkovich, Alex <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
To: 'CTLEPS-L at lists.yale.edu' <CTLEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Date: Thursday, June 21, 2001 11:02 AM
Subject: FW: Gem perfect Red Admrials


>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Grkovich, Alex 
>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 11:06 AM
>> To: 'Rumohr at aol.com'
>> Subject: RE: Gem perfect Red Admrials
>> 
>> Ms. Mohr,
>> 
>> But first of all, you are not a Lepidopterist, and second and I think this
>> is the key point that has been lost recently: You would not understand
>> (unless you were a Lepidopterist) that there is a critical need for
>> specimens which have been collected for scientific study. A great number
>> of people who "watch" butterflies on the side today (and who are bird
>> watchers, horticulturalists, teachers etc.but who are NOT people who
>> became interested in Lepidoptera as a 6 year old as I did) believe or have
>> been convinced by uninformed (or even unscrupulous) people that there is
>> no need for any more collecting or scientific study, because "all
>> subspecies and forms have been identified".
>> 
>> Ms. Mohr, this is hardly the case: The taxonomic study of Lepidoptera is
>> only in its infancy, and am examination of recent scientific journals
>> about butterflies (and even those issued by the non-collectors" groups)
>> will prove this. There are numerous species of butterflies in the Eastern
>> U.S. that are suspected of "hiding" another unidentified species, and the
>> taxonomic study of western U.S. butterfly species is an absolute mess. 
>> 
>> Now, who is going to do this study? Are we going to discourage the "future
>> Alexander B. Klots" from developing an interest? What is unconsciously
>> being done today (and this is only a recent development) is actually
>> discouraging future scientists. And please understand that it is an insult
>> to all students of butterfly taxonomy to insinuate that we enjoy killing
>> butterflies. We do not. But we DO understand that specimens are necessary.
>> "The more, the better", has never been the attitude of anyone seriously
>> devoted to Lepidoptera study. And it appears to me from your letter that,
>> as I said above, you yourself are not among those who are.
>> 
>> Please discuss this with a serious Lepidopterist in the future before
>> giving an opinion. Believe me, and I say this with extreme seriousness,
>> such opinions as yours are contributing to a serious "dumbing down" (and
>> these are the words of a noted Lepidopterist who has published several
>> major scientific journals recently-they are not mine) of the entire study
>> of Lepidoptera.
>> 
>> Alex Grkovich  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rumohr at aol.com [SMTP:Rumohr at aol.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:09 AM
>> To: rrmuller at snet.net; Epmanshell at aol.com
>> Cc: CTLEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
>> Subject: Re: Gem perfect Red Admrials
>> 
>> 
>> In a message dated 6/19/01 1:37:08 PM, rrmuller at snet.net writes:
>> 
>> <<  I hope every KID out there that has a net and interest in Butterflies 
>> gets one for his or her collection.
>> 
>>  >>
>>  Bob,
>> Back in the 50's I worked as a camp counselor in charge of  the nature
>> house. 
>> I took kids out with nets to capture, kill and pin "bugs" and butterflies
>> for 
>> our cigar box collections to take back to the city. The more, the better. 
>> Sure we tried to identify them and label them, wasn't I trying to
>> familiarize 
>> these city kids with Nature? Wasn't there a  multitude of butterflies out 
>> there? We wouldn't miss the few we captured, would we? There were plenty 
>> more, after all didn't they lay oodles of eggs? I was young then and
>> didn't 
>> think that the REAL message I was conveying(to kids who might become
>> future 
>> naturalists) was that creatures who belonged in this abundant habitat were
>> 
>> expendable and that it was OK to capture and kill.
>>     As a teacher  of 30 years and now retired, I have raised(and continue
>> to 
>> raise) and released hundreds of butterflies with children. I travel to 
>> schools giving slide shows about butterflies and do garden club slide 
>> presentations about butterflies and butterfly gardening. I have created a 
>> program called "GROW WITH KIDS" in which I plan and help create schoolyard
>> 
>> butterfly habitats in schools in order to have outdoor classroom space
>> where 
>> children become responsible for maintaining a safe haven for butterflies.
>> The 
>> gardens are habitats where children can see many varieties of butterflies
>> and 
>> moths. They are gardens that adults enjoy on their daily walks and then go
>> 
>> home and try to replicate. What is my message to young and old now?  These
>> 
>> magical creatures are a valued part of our environment and we can do much
>> to 
>> insure that they are still here for our grandchildren and their children.
>> We 
>> do not collect and DO NOT KILL  butterflies as if they were prizes and we 
>> certainly do not send out the message to youngsters that it is OK to kill 
>> creatures for the fun of it.
>>     When collecting eggs and caterpillars with children, the first thing
>> you 
>> discuss is how to create a habitat in which the creature can be safe, well
>> 
>> fed and content. Then we talk about the responsibility one  has to care
>> for 
>> it so in turn we can observe its growth. The creature is released so it
>> can 
>> go on its way as nature intended. If its purpose in life becomes a meal
>> for a 
>> bird so be it. At least we did not kill it.
>>     I invite you to my school to see the butterfly gardens, the vegetable
>> and 
>> sunflower garden and our magnificent meadow all created so the creatures
>> you 
>> feel are expendable can live freely and joyfully.
>>     Just speaking out for those who have no voice in the
>> matter(butterflies 
>> and moths)
>>             Ruthie Mohr,teacher, schoolyard coordinator and CBA education 
>> chairperson
>
>
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