Takeshi Kitano interview

[Mark Schilling]

For any Takeshi Kitano fans out there, here's a roughly edited transcript
of an interview I did last month with TK for Winds and Screen
International. The final version of the Q & A that will appear in Winds
will be less than half of this length and edited for a general audience,
while the article for Screen will focus on his career and his dealings with
the Japanese film industry. 

Kitano rarely grants interviews with the local print media -- Winds had
been trying for years to get him for their Q & A section. I think I lucked
out simply because he won the Screen International Award for best foreign
film at this year's European Film Awards and I could use that as leverage. 


Anyway read and enjoy -- and please remember that I did the interview not
for Japanese cinephiles but for general and film industry readers.

Mark Schiling (schill at gol.com) 


 Takeshi Kitano interview

Q: John Woo said in an interview that he thought you were the next Asian
director most likely to make it in Hollywood. What kind of movie would you
make if you could work with a Hollywood studio and a Hollywood budget?
Also, do you have any desire to make such a film?

A: I'm working on two projects now set in America. I've written simple
treatments for them. One is about two members of minorities, a Japanese
yakuza and a black American who becomes the yakuza's kyodaibun -- his gang
brother. They are fighting together against the larger white society and
realize, in the course of the struggle, that they are brothers in the real
sense of the word.
     Another one is inspired by Tarantino and Scorcese and other directors
who are really familiar with the Italian Mafia. It's a film set in Hawaii
about the Japanese yakuza and the American Mafia. There's this old yazuka
who happens to get into some trouble with another old man and discovers
that he's with the Mafia. They start talking in a coffee shop about why
they became gangsters. The Mafia guy say that he got involved in the gangs
when he was a kid, The yakuza says that he was poor when he was a kid and
that the yakuza gave him a way out. Then the Mafia guy asks the yakuza guy
what kind of ceremonies the yakuza have when someone joins a gang. 
      The story traces their lives, from the old days to the present. When
they part, they agree to meet at the coffee shop at the same time  next
year. Then the Mafia guy takes a walk on the beach. Suddenly there's the
sound of gunfire and he falls. The Japanese yakuza thinks the American
Mafia is tougher than the yakuza and that's how the movie ends.       
     These films are just in the treatment stage. If anyone is interested,
I can say I have these two treatments. 

Q: So you aren't in negotiation with any Hollywood studio now.

A: No, not at all. I can't make movies the way John Woo does. I don't have
that kind of speed. In general, I don't think that I have the kind of speed
that you find in Hollywood films, so it probably wouldn't work out. I don't
think it would be fair to moviegoers who come expecting to be entertained. 

My movie (Hana-Bi) opened at a theater in Shinjuku yesterday. Usually when
a screening ends people start walking out during the credit, but after
(Hana-bi) ended the audience was staying until the lights went up in the
theater, so they had to delay the next screening until everyone left. The
schedule got screw up because of that. 

Q: When I saw it at the Nippon Herald screening room, the place was packed,
but no one left until the end of the credits. They seemed to be lost in
thought.

A: How can we take money for bringing people down like that? (laughs) The
audience is going to be asking for a refund. "Hey, I thought movies were
supposed to be fun." (laughs) "You've got some kind of strange mind, making
a movie like that." (laughs). "

Q: Was the reaction abroad the same?

A: Pretty much  the same I think. When they screened it at Venice, the
audience was quiet until the end and I thought, "Uh oh, this isn't good."
Then after the lights went up, there was some applause, so I felt relieved.
"At least they're applauding it." But there was a gap between the end of
the film and the applause. Finally, they gave it a big hand.

Q: Your work is so different from what the West has been getting from Asia
lately -- a lot of Hong Kong movies or Hollywood movies made by Hong Kong
directors. 

A: Hong Kong films are like a kind of dance, a show. You'll never see
anything like that in real life. When they show fight scenes, they just go
on and on. There's no way that people can keep punching and kicking each
other like that, making it look so beautiful. In real life, there's one
punch and it's over. So I don't think of my violent films as being
entertainment. In Hong Kong movies, there's no realism to the fighting or
shooting -- it's all a show.

Q: Whereas Hong Kong movies seem to be influenced by Chinese opera, yours
seem to have more of a distinctly Japanese quality. The way you use pauses
reminds me somehow of Noh drama. (laughs) Your gang movies seem to be
restrained compared to what has been coming out of Hong Kong. Did you
intend to inject a Japanese quality into you films? 

A: No, not all. In the neighborhood where I grew up there were a lot of
yakuza around. I used to see them fight each other and usually it would be
over with one punch.  I never saw them punching away at each other --
they might trade as many three punches, then one guy would be getting the
worst of it and give up. I never saw them go at each other the way you see
in a cowboy movie. Usually it would be one sided -- one guy working over
another. I would see one guy kicking another, that kind of thing. I never
saw what you would describe as boxing match. 

Q: What about the influence of Japanese yakuza movies from the sixties and
seventies -- Ken Takakura charging into a nest of rival gangsters with a
sword?

A: Those Ken Takakura movies were popular when the student movement was at
its height. Radical students would go to the theater and applaud Ken
Takakura. But I knew there was no way for that kind of thing to happen --
for one yakuza to take on a whole rival gang with a wooden sword. It was
totally unrealistic. I thought, well, it's only a movie, but when I made
movies myself I could never do that. 
      Stories like that were made into manga. At the end Ken Takakura says,
"I'll go alone." The other guys in the gang say "Go ahead, we're not
stopping you." (laughs). 

Q: In the seventies the "Jingi Naki Tatakai" (Fight Without Honor) series
by Kinji Fukasaku tried to inject more realism into the yakuza genre. 

A: His camerawork had a documentary feel. Now they would use a Steadicam,
but back then they would shoot like a reporter chasing a TV talent, with a
wobbling handheld camera. Especially in the fight scenes -- it would
heighten the tension. Fukasaku was quite good at that. 

Q: When I saw your first film (Violent Cop,1989) I thought that you were
trying to get away from what had been done in the past and make a different
kind of gang movie.

A: The story, the camerawork -- the whole process of making films has it
own rules, like baseball. When I made my first film I tried to learn the
rules and followed them until "Hana-Bi." I had pretty much figured out how
to make a movie by then. In the beginning, I didn't know very much about
how to move the camera and so on. So the movie turned out looking like a
souvenir photo. After my second or third film, though, I started to figure
out how to move the camera. 

Q: With "Hana-Bi" I felt that you were putting in everything you had
learned about filmmaking. It was a kind of summation.

A: If I compare "Hana-Bi" to an entrance exam for a public university,
where they test you on five subjects -- English and Japanese and so on -- I
think I scored an average of 60 points on all the subjects and passed. But
in some scenes I scored 90 percent and others 10 percent. If I had been
taking a test for a private college, where they only require three
subjects, "Hana-Bi" would have scored pretty well, though. (laughs) But a
lot of movies that apply for that national university of film score better
than "Hana-Bi." 

Q: Are you going to take a different approach for you next film? Or are you
going to expand on the themes you explored in "Hana-Bi"?

A: When you think about the most popular stories with audiences, the ones
that seem to work the most consistently are about parents and children. One
story is a child visiting its grandmother during the summer vacation. They
meet and various things happen, then the child goes back to its mother.
That's a classic story. Various people have told it and each one has his
own way of telling it. So now I'm thinking how I can tell it differently. 
      It's like a piano contest where everyone plays the same number, but
one performance is somehow better than the others. I would like to try
something like that once. 
     Everyone has his own idea of how to tell a story about family
relations. You have the Tora-san approach, you have the approach of Shinoda
Masahiro in "Takeshi -- Childhood Days." So I would like to try making the
same kind of film and see how I could do it differently. 

Q: In the same way, I seen a lot of younger Japanese directors try to make
films like Yasujiro Ozu. They' may be making a parody, but at the same time
they're trying to match themselves against the master -- again, like
classical pianists playing the same number in a contest.

A: When I see Ozu's movies, I'm impressed with the shots he gets when the
characters go outside -- you can't find those kinds of backdrops in Japan
anymore. You couldn't make those kinds of shots today -- the right scenery
isn't there anymore. There's too much extraneous stuff in the background. 
     So the only way you can still imitate Ozu now is to shoot on a set.
Once you go outside it would be too difficult. 

Q: People are talking about how Japanese films are reviving, but when you
compare them to what was made in the Golden Age of the 1950s by people like
Ozu and Kurosawa, there's still a gap.

A: Japanese movies still pretty bad. Back then there were a lot of good
movies being made, so a lot of people went to see them -- that's why it was
called the Golden Age. The release of movies like "The Princess Mononoke"
and "Lost Paradise" that draw peoples back to the theaters is a good thing
but the films themselves are not that great. (laughs) To have a Golden Age
you need to have both good films and a lot of people who want to see them.
If we had three or four really great directors, we might have a new Golden
Age, but we're not there yet. 

Q: In the past couple years a lot of young directors have been making their
first features. Have you seen any that you thought were really  good?

A: I've been collecting videos of films by young directors. I'm judging the
Tokyo Sports Film Awards this year. We're totally free to pick any movies
we want, whether or not they're from a major studio. 
      There have been a lot of problem films recently, especially films
about enjo kosai ("paid dates" in which older men buy the sexual favors of
teenage girls). But I think that kind of subject would be more interesting
as a documentary. When you think about the possibilities of film, that kind
of subject matter seems to limit what you can do visually. I wouldn't have
very much interest in watching that kind of film. 
     I just don't like message or problem films anyway. 

Q: A lot of younger directors are coming from backgrounds other than films
-- music videos and TV commercials and so on. When you made your first
movie nine years ago, there was a certain prejudice in the industry against
outsiders directing, but that doesn't seem to be case now. 

A: When we're looking for locations, sometimes they won't let us shoot. A
temple might let Kurosawa shoot there, but not me because I am celebrity
and they are afraid they won't be able to control the crowds. But since
I've taken the prize at Venice, places like that will let me shoot there.
It's become a lot easier. Before we'd get a lot of static from people
saying that you can't shoot here, you can't shoot there." . 

Q: But when I interviewed Kurosawa a few years ago, he complained about the
same thing. Japanese bureaucrats and police make very hard for anyone to
shoot movies in this country.

A: Japan bureaucrats earn their bread by building roads, but the money they
use comes from the taxpayers, like me. I can't tell them "I've paid for
this road, you have to let me use it," but I would like them to give me
tell me straight explanation for why they are saying no."

Q: A more important problem for a lot of Japanese filmmakers, though, is to
get the money to make a movie in the first place. 

A: When you come down to it, there are only about four movie companies that
finance film production. Now you also the TV networks joining with the film
companies to make big projects like "The Princess Mononoke". I think that
co-financing with the TV networks is one way to go -- they can do a lot to
publicize a film.

Q: That was certainly true in the case of "Shall We Dance?," which got a
lot of TV publicity from one of its backers, the NTV network. The problem
with the films that TV networks make is that a lot of them end up looking
like TV dramas (laughs). 

A: There was no need to make 'Shall We Dance?' as a movie -- it's made the
same way as a TV drama. You have a bunch of actors talking on a set -- I
think that film has more possibilities than that. With films you can have a
bigger scale, more visual beauty -- but just filming a bunch of actors
talking on a set, you might as well do it with a TV camera. 

Q: Yet another problem, especially for makers of independent films in
Japan, is distribution, which is tightly controlled by three companies. 

A: Yes, Toei, Toho Shochiku all have theaters chains, leaving only a
limited number of independent theaters, such as Theater Shinjuku. But
nowadays, with the growth of multiplex cinemas, you can rent more
independent theaters for your films. We've been able to get ("Hana-Bi")
into a fairly large number of theaters -- 60 or 70 -- around the country.
So there are ways to get around the chains.

Q: Before you started distributing through you own company, Office Kitano,
you made three films with Shochiku. With the third, Sonatine (1993), you
had some differences with the producer, Kazuyoshi Okuyama. Is that what
persuaded you to start distributing your films independently?

A: Yes, the wonderful Mr. Okuyama. (laughs). When he saw the rushes he got
mad and said "This is not a movie." He said he didn't want his name on the
film as a producer, so we had some trouble over that. 
     After that "Sonatine" won a prize at the Taorima festival in Italy,
but he kept it a secret. Two years later, when I went to the Cannes film
festival, an Italian journalist asked me how I felt about winning the
prize. I said "what prize?" Shochiku had been holding onto it all that
time. I felt like saying "What do you guys think you're doing?" 

Q: Not that you've had so much success as a director, have you started to
wonder what your real job should be? Do you ever think of chucking TV and
concentrating on films?

A: Appearing on television gets me the money and fame I need to work as a
director, so television has its good points. Also, if I just made movies, I
couldn't eat. (laughs). With ("Hana-Bi") I may earn enough money to make a
living off my movies, for the first time ever. Before there was no way -- I
simply couldn't make enough money at it. So for me, being a director is a
kind of hobby. 
     Also, because I'm a comedian, making movies and working on television
gives me a lot of good material for gags. And because I have the status of
being a movie director, I can get mad at people and they can't say
anything. (laughs) So doing both jobs has a kind of synergy that's worked
well for me. 
      But it's become hard to do both in terms of time and stamina. I've
got eight regular programs now and that may be too many. 
     If I just made one film year and cut back on my TV schedule, it would
be physically easier, but then I wouldn't have enough money to live on.
(laughs)

Q: You've been working regularly on television for more than twenty years.
It's amazing that you've been able to stand the pace this long.

A: It's because I goof off on the job -- I don't work at it and I don't
think about it. 

Q: But how do you make shift from the film mode to the television mode,
from the serious filmmaker to the television comedian? 
 
A:  If you compare films and television to games, like professional
football or major league baseball, you play football according to football
rules, baseball according to baseball rules. In the same way being a TV
talent has its own rules and so does working in films. For me comedy is the
best way to go on television. But in movies, I want to do more serious
things, such as play yakuza.

 Q: A lot of comedians have tried to make the shift from comedy to serious
drama, but you're the only one I can think of who has played such scary
characters in films.

A: Even since I appeared in (Nagisa Oshima's) "Merry Christmas Mr.
Lawrence" as a camp guard, I've been playing serious roles. Because I first
came up as a stand-up comedian, whenever I appeared on the screen,
audiences would start laughing, no matter what role I was in. It took about
fifteen years until audiences started to regard me as something other than
a comedian and really pay attention to what I was doing. Until then they
would just laugh. 
      I also played a lot of bad guys on TV dramas and got a good reaction.
Finally audiences started to distinguish between Beat Takeshi the comedian
and Takeshi Kitano the actor and filmmaker. But it took a long time. It was
as hard for me as it was for Michael Jordan to hit a home run in the major
leagues. 

Q: Do you enjoy shifting from one mode to another because it's a good
change of pace?

A: I regard the two as being in completely different categories. It's like
eating Japanese food and Italian food. The TV and movie work influence each
other, but they are completely separate. 

Q: You appeared in one Hollywood film, "Johnny Mnemonic," and it seemed
that you might do more work with Hollywood directors, but since your
accident, you seem to have given up those plans. What happened?

A: I thought  With "Johnny Mnemonic" would be good chance to work in a
Hollywood movie with a big actor like Keanu Reeves, but after the shooting
was over I felt like a Japanese kid who had been taken to the real
Disneyland in America but had to come home without riding on anything.
(laughs) I didn't really feel like I was in a Hollywood movie. 
      I'd be happy to do it again, but this time I want to go on some
rides. (laughs)

Q: Why did you feel that you didn't get to go on any rides?

A: To be honest, I probably should have looked at the script more closely
before I agreed to do the film. I should have turned it down -- it was a
boring movie. 

Q: Are there any Hollywood directors or actors you especially want to work
with?   

A: It's hard for me to tell about the actors -- they all look good to me.
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I have so read the subtitles. It
hard for me to tell whether they're really reading their lines well or not.
I know there are good and bad Hollywood stars, but I can't get a feel for
which is which. 
     I might read in a magazine that this or that actor is good, but that's
all I know -- so anyone would be all right. (laughs)

Q: Would you feel more comfortable about appearing in, say, a gang movie
than another science fiction film?

A: Yes, a gang movie would be all right -- either a European or Hollywood
action film would be all right, but the range of what I can do is rather
limited. I have to play a scary guy. Also, I make a big impact on the
screen, so I have to have other actors around who can keep up with me. But
if both those conditions are met, then I would be interested in seeing a
script. With "Johnny Mnemonic," I agreed to do it without first checking
the script. When I got to the set I was surprised to see what was going on,
but by then it was too late. So if I appear in a Hollywood movie again, I
want to have a better idea of what I'm getting into. 
     In "Johnny Mnemonic" I was supposed to wear a yakuza tattoo. In Japan
everyone knows what yakuza are and what yakuza tattoos are supposed to look
like, so there's is no problem, but over there they have unions for the
technical people and the make-up people and they're very strong. They tell
you what they're going to do and you have to listen to them. They wanted me
to wear a tattoo like something on an aloha shirt. (laughs) I wondered what
the Japanese audience would think when they saw that. 
      It would have been different if I had stated in my contract what kind
of tattoo I would wear, but instead I found myself in this strange place
where I didn't know the customs and they were telling me to be a yakuza. I
should have turned down the part. 
     I can understand that there might be some differences, but I didn't
know that it would be so different.

Q: Speaking about different working methods. I remember being surprised
when I went to the set of "Hana-Bi" and hear you talking with your staff
about how to end the movie. I know that you had a script but it almost
seemed as though you were making up the story as you went along. Is that
the way you usually work?

A: Usually we have synopsis when we start. After we begin filming, though,
I don't like to force the actors to do what they're uncomfortable with, so
once they get into their rhythms, the story naturally starts to change. I
don't change the script on my own, but in consultation with my staff. 
      This can create problems. One time we going to use a ferry boat and,
when the story changed, we had to cancel. So one of the staff had to go to
the ferry boat people and apologize. All he could say was "the director's
changed his mind." That's kind of thing happens a lot. 
     But when you're faced with a choice, you have to go with the one you
think is best. 
      But when you're making a Hollywood movie, you have a script and
usually you have to follow it. You can't go the people in charge and say "I
don't like this." You 'll get fired. (laughs)

Q: Akira Kurosawa used his drawings to give his staff a feel for the kind
of look and feel he wanted in the scene. They served as a kind of
storyboard. You've also taken up painting -- some of your paintings were
used in "Hana-Bi." Did you make them for the same reason -- to use as a
visual guide for your staff? 

A: Even if I were to make a drawing of a location for the staff, it only
exists in my head -- I haven't been there, my staff hasn't been there.
First we have to go to the actual place where we're going to film and look
around. 
      Also, I like to play it by ear so I can fool the lighting and camera
directors. They want everything to be perfect, but I like the mistakes -- I
like changing the direction of the action so the light isn't shining where
it's supposed to or the camera isn't pointing where it's supposed to. Of
course, I can't ignore them completely -- they're professionals who know
their jobs. But they'll tell me I can't do this or that -- otherwise they
'll look  bad. At first, I would tell them what I wanted them to do, but
they wouldn't listen to me. So now I fool them. I'll shoot it the way I
like, without the proper lighting, and tell them I'll throw the footage
away, but later on I'll edit it in. (laughs). 

Q: You're involved in the whole process, from scriptwriting to editing. Do
you think that editing is the most important part of the job?

A: Editing like making a plastic model. You have the numbered parts -- the
shots that you filmed -- and editing is the process of putting them
together. Having someone else do the editing for you, is like having the
people at the factory build your model for you. The job of putting the
parts together is mine and for me it's the most interesting part of the
whole process. Of course, sometimes you don't have the parts you need and
you have to improvise. It's like having not having a steering wheel for
your model and putting a tire in its place. You just hope that people don't
watch the movie two or three times -- they're going to find you out.
(laughs)
      Sometimes when my mind is really clicking, I'll be cutting in my head
as I film. I think if I film in such and such a way I'll have such and such
a sequence of cuts. There's one scene in "Hana-Bi" of a punk standing by a
car. He throws away a box lunch and suddenly my fist flashes out and he's
on the ground. I filmed it exactly that way -- that's all the footage I had
to work with. Ordinarily, I would have shown the punch making contact with
the punk's face, but I thought it would be more interesting the other way.
Usually, though, I'll film more footage for insurance and then end up
throwing it away. 
      
Q: So sometimes you have a clear image of what you want to shoot before you
begin filming. 

A: Yes, when I'm really clicking. Before I shoot the scene, I'll be
watching the movie in my head. Then I can film one scene after another, but
sometimes my mind goes blank. That's when I shoot a lot of footage on the
set. That's when I have the most trouble editing -- it take a lot of time
to get what I want. 

Q: Do you go through the same process of visualization when, say, you're
making a TV program?

A: Not at all. When I go to a TV station, it's just to play. I never go
there to work. I never read a script. Sometimes I don't even know what
program I'm supposed to be on. (laughs)
      Even if you prepare, TV programs have a way of going in a different
direction and you have to be ready to go with it. With movies, you have
more of a line to follow. 
     Once I was on a two-hour program where they gave us food and booze. I
starting drinking and after about thirty minutes I passed out and slept
through the rest of the show. The other guests were talking about me --
"Oh, Takeshi's still sleeping." (laughs) I didn't mean to pass out but it
made the show more  interesting. That's just the way TV is, so what's the
point of preparing?  

Q: You got your start on television as part of a manzai act (a pair of
stand-up comedians). Do you see any young manzai coming up who have real
potential? 

A: I don't know -- I never see them. Manzai acts appear on different
programs from mine. I heard of some interesting new groups, but I just
haven't gotten around to watching them

Q: One trend I've noticed on variety programs is for young comedians not to
do skits, but go out and have real experiences and get laughs from the
situations they find themselves in. One recent example is a group called
the Drones, who hitchhiked from the tip of South America to Alaska. 

A: The shows those comedians are doing are exactly the same as the ones I
was doing more than ten years ago. I bummed my way from Hokkaido to Kyushu
on one show. The young comedians who are on those shows were all watching
me on TV when they were students and now they're doing the same kinds of
things I was doing then. The execution is different, but the basic ideas
are the same. 
      I was the one who first thought of doing that kind of risky or
dangerous stuff on TV. I can't think of any new ideas they've come up with.


Q: But even so there seem to be a lot of new faces.

A: TV is a business with a high turnover. I can only think of two or three
others who have been around more than twenty years. There's Tamori and
George Tokoro and Sanma (Akashiya) and me -- everyone else is new.  
     There's no one left from the manzai boom (of the early eighties)
except me 

Q: Did you ever look around at all the young faces and wonder what you're
doing here and how much longer you'll be around?

A: Yes, the turnover is high. TV talents are always being compared with
each other -- "Takeshi's getting a little stale." But now Takeshi is also a
movie director. That's a kind of insurance. Now that I've become famous for
my films, it's easier for me to do TV. I don't have to compete with the
other guys other there. I'm coming from a different place. 
      I think it's tough for older guys who only have television to fall
back on to be appearing on shows with all these young guys.  

Q: You also have books -- you've written more than 60 books now. In some of
them you comment on serious issues. What social issue are you most
interested in now? 

A: After the war the system changed completely and we had the high-growth
era. Now that postwar system has developed a lot of problems and, fifty
years after the end of the war, with all those problems coming to the
surface, we can finally say that the postwar period is over. 
     I was born right after the end of the war and was raised on American
TV sitcoms -- "Life with Father" and all those other shows. Watching them I
thought that the middle-class lifestyle they portrayed -- the house with
the yard, the big refrigerator, the nice father, the happy family with
everyone talking to everyone else --  was typical. In Japan we've been
trying to live up to that model for so long. But we're starting to realize
that not many Americans really live that way, that we been chasing after a
dream.    
      In the same way, we been trying to imitate the good parts of the
American system -- democracy and human rights. But now we've having all
kind of problems with that system, in education and other areas . Kids
hitting teachers, kids dropping out, parents killing their kids.
       And when we look at America we see the same thing. The jury system
that produced the OJ Simpson trial, the criminal law system that lets
criminals out on the streets. The American culture of guns and drugs. The
American conflict between blacks and whites. 
      But for fifty years after the end of the war, we've been following in
America's footsteps and heading in the same direction. When we look at the
Japan today and wonder why we have all these problems between parents and
children, with drug use -- well, we just have to look at America and see
what kind of country it's become, where their form of democracy has taken
them. 

Q: I understand what you're saying about kids today being different  -
Shibuya at three in the morning has become a scary place. 

A: Parents have become scared of their own kids. It used to be that adults
would scold kids who running around and making trouble on the train, but
now no one does that. When I was a kid I used get scolded by adults all the
time, but that doesn't happen anymore. 
      We've lost the ability to distinguish between rights and duties. Now
the emphasis is totally on rights -- no one talks about duties any more and
we're going in a very strange direction as a result. 

       .