GM Pollen and butterflies bees and honey ????

[Brian Sandle]

Posted to the lepidoptera newgroup for any comment.

Owen McShane <omcshane at wk.planet.gen.nz> wrote:
: Carman wrote:
:> 
:> snip.
:> > > :
:> > > : But Swiss scientists found that insects called lacewings died more
:> > > quickly
:> > > : after they fed on corn borers reared on the modified corn.

: What do you expect. The corn is producing a natural pesticide.

It is producing something like a natural pesticide, and it is not 
producing it in a natural way.

Bt is pretty good at overcoming insect tolerance when used in the natural 
form because it is not a pure genetic line, we have just read on 
sci.bio.entomology.lepidotera. And if I understood it correctly the 
process used in the transgenic Bt-maize allows insects to transfer 
tolerance more easily.

It is interesting that the lacewings were feeding on corn borers reared 
on the modified corn. Do the lacewings eat live or dead corn borers? If 
they are eating live ones that would mean that those corn borers are able 
to live on the bt-corn - they have developed resistance.

Now we can imagine a situation where the Bt-corn has lost its insecticidal
use. It has also transferred resistance to the corn borer. Now the enemy
of the corn borer - the lacewing - cannot be used as a control measure of
the corn borer so long as the Bt-corn genes are in the corn crops. Eating
the corn borer will now kill the lacewing. 

That principle needs to be extrapolated to other insects, too.

 If these
: pesticides weren't there the world would be ten feet deep in insects.

Insects are very prevalent in the world. They are also important.
 
:> > Facts: Plants cannot run away from predators.
:> > Fact: Therefore they have developed a wide range of pesticides to
:> > protect themselves.
:> 
:> hhm my cabbages don't seem to be acting effectively in producing adequate
:> toxins to combat the snails...??

: No. Our cabbages have been bred for better taste and one of the prices
: maybe reduced toxin content. SO we have to use slug slam.

Reduced toxins can be better for humans, too. Try putting an electric 
slug or snail barrier around the patch.

:> > Fact: Humans can deal with most of these pesticides because we are large
:> > while insects are small. Those plants whose toxins are so potent that we
:> > can't we call poisonous. eg toadstools etc.
:> 
:> yes and other toxins commonly known to be harmful to humans Dioxins
:  roundup. Roundup is a herbicide. Dioxin is the product of burning
: organic matter. Most of the world's dioxin is produced by forest fires.
: It is officially a mutagen as it is not highly toxic.

`as' is not the correct word there.

you mean `and.'

A mutagen will produce mutations, though possibly without the sort of 
toxicity which can make a person immediately ill.

Dioxin can be in the herbicides like 2,4-D and 3,4,5-T, in small 
quantities, sufficient to be a worry.


:> 
:> > Fact: Almost all the spicy foods we eat (including garlic and onions)
:> > owe their spiciness to the flavour of their toxins which are designed to
:> > warn the insects "don't eat me."
:> 
:> garlic onions .. spicey ??
: (I put it in brackets to recognize that the onion garlic flavour is not
: normally referred to as a spice in English.) But the onion and garlic
: bulb only has its "spicy" flavour if you cut or chop it. The bulb thinks
: the knife is an insect and an enzyme produces the eye watering juice as
: a pesticide. If you cook garlic without crushing or chopping it it tasts
: more like chestnut than "garlic".

:> > FACT: We all eat thousands of these natural toxins every day. Of course
:> > one of the most famous toxins is nicotine. We can deal with that if we
:> > eat it. It's smoking it which causes the problems/
:> 
:> yes and these 'natural toxins' as you cal them .. have been arund for how
:> many thousand years....we know what they are capable of ... and how they
:> interact with the environment... they are tried and true....
:> meanwhile back at the test tube.. the mad scientists are preparing to
:> release all manner of new untried combinations for us to sample and test
:> ... as we are now seeing the results are emerging in the most basic life
:> forms... it will be interesting to observe the results that emerge as these
:> 'toxins' climb up the food chain...
:> can't wait ! it'll be fascinating to be sure

: But that is the point. The insecticides which 'the mad scientists' are
: moving between species are these natural ones to which we have adapted.
: They are not new or synthetic. They are the natural pesticides which we
: have adapted to.

They are not there in the natural proportions we have adjusted to. Note 
the experiment which found that beta carotene increased cancer in 
smokers, if given in purified form, whereas in its natural form with 
other carotenes in foods it helps protect against cancer.

:> > So if we develop a crop with toxins designed to kill insects it is
:> > likely to kill insects. But it will be natural and hence we shall almost
:> > certainly be able to deal with it.
:> 
:> Aye .... just like we can deal with dioxins... roundup residue... and all
:> the other things our bodies are subjected to on a daily basis... oh yes I
:> believe our women are dealing rather well with the 3rd generation mini-pill
:> at the moment... how long did it take for the effects to emerge and be
:> observed in these women .. who died...
:> fascinating to be sure .. to be sure..

: Well, we deal with the small amounts of ambient dioxin which is around
: us. All living things have defence mechanisms. But we overload them at
: our peril. Sunshine is a good example. We were not designed to sunbathe.

Sunshine is a problem if it is in large irregular doses. Without sunlight 
rickets develops unless there is other vitamin D supplementation.

Vitamin D protects against cancer and I have posted before a table which 
shows how there is more cancer with increasing latitude - less sunlight.

:> > The Monarch story is interesting. The Monarch lives on swan plants
:> > because swan plants exude a white juice which is toxis to almost every
:> > other insect on the planet. But the monarch has learned to deal with it.
:> > Monarchs will normally eat  nothing else. So why were they eating this
:> > modified crop - presumably because there was nothing else and they were
:> > likely to die anyhow. As long as there are swan plants monarchs are not
:> > at risk.
:> 
:> and how would you explain the lace wings that died more
:>  quickly  after they fed on corn borers reared on the modified corn.?

: Because they were eating an natural pesticide. I would have been
: surprised if they didn't. That's what pesticides do. And your organic
: gardening book tells you to plant certain plants such as marigolds etc
: because they have useful pesticides.
: When we say that plants repel certain insects we are saying that the
: plant contains a useful pesticide. They don't wave their leaves around.
: They exude or contain poisons.

Plants under stress can produce a substance which insects eat to make use 
of it themselves.

As with the garlic it is not good to have the poison there all the time?

An article on the lepidoptera newsgroup points out how constant presence 
of a toxin is the way to produce resistance in pests.

 The Monarch is bound to be succestible to
: other more widespread toxins because it has evolved to feed on a single
: species which is highly toxic to others. The trade off is sensitivity to
: other insectides. In evolution there is no free lunch.

Evolution and survival of the fittest require small modifications to the 
environment. Large changes only cause mass extinctions.

: The thing that puzzles me about the Monarch story is that some people
: are surprised. I would have thought it was highly predictable. If the
: Monarch had not been affected, that would have been surprising.

& the lacewing story and what else is not surprising?

This transgenics seems to be going to work like Mr Poorwork dentist who 
makes more money by patching up the bad work he has already done on your 
teeth.