Fw: Papilio joanae - ancestors?

[Ron Gatrelle]

HUmmmm, the last half of this post got cut off, Submit again.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: <stanlep at extremezone.com>
Cc: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: Papilio joanae - ancestors?


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stanley A. Gorodenski" <stanlep at extremezone.com>
> To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Papilio joanae mtDNA - a reply
>
>
> -- snip --
>
> I was including responses from other individuals in my response.  I was
> attempting to be less
> personal so as not get anyones hair up, and so I did not want to say
> "this argues against so and so's model that etc. As you pointed out,
> there was no way you could have said this, and in fact I was using your
> statement of what the mDNA analysis showed as evidence that P. joanae
> was not likely to be the ancester of P. polyxenes. Unfortunately, I can
> see now that because my response was directed to you it was easy to
> interpret it the wrong way.  Sorry for the confusion on my part.  Next
> time I won't hesitate to name names to avoid this kind of situation.
>
> I will finish reading your response and will probably have more
> questions.
>
> Stan
> ___________________
>
> FROM RON
>
> No problem. In case someone missed it I am the one who put forth the idea
> of joanae being the ancestor of N. American machaon group. Now, I did not
> mean THE ancestor. I am looking at the possibility of joanae being the
> extant species with the oldest connections. Why am I thinking along these
> lines?
>
> Is there a subconscious influence because machaon is the old world
> swallowtail and was described first?  For example, if we see several
> markers common to machaon and what ever - do we tend to say (think) that
> what ever has machaon's characters rather than machaon has what ever's
> characters? After all we do call this the machaon group. The problem with
> this is that about 15000 years ago virtually all of machaon's current
range
> was covered with ICE - where was "machaon" at then? Was it even exisatent
> then? If so how can that be proven?
> Tree diagrams look good on paper. They may not look so good if laid out
> over geological time.
>
> Bear with me. Next. Basically - dark taxa inhabit the north - colorful
taxa
> the tropics. One of the reasons for this is that dark is a better basking
> color to absorb heat in northern climates. Dark species have a thermal
> survival edge in colder climates. Dark is also a selective species
> preservation mechanism in times of glaciation.
>
> Just because there is a genetic connection between joanae and machaon -
it
> does not automatically follow that it is in the direction of joanae to
> machaon.  Connections are just connections. It is not just a matter of
> which entities have the most amount of common markers (connections). It
is
> also a matter of which entity has the most connection to its fellow
> entities. Does polyxenes have ANY genetic connection TO joanae? Does
> brevicauda have any genetic connection TO joanae? Do the various machaon
> sub taxa have any genetic connection TO joanae?  How about bairdii,
> zelicaon, coloro etc.? If joanae has more genetic connections with its
> fellows then they have with each other then I say joanae is the closest
to
> their common (dark) Pleistocene ancestor.  The fact that joanae has more
> markers in common with machaon only shows that they are currently more
> closely related than joanae is to some of the others (currently) -- all
> these taxa are evolving, moving at different rates.
>
> From what I've read, joanae seems to have the broadest genetic
connectivity
> across the machaon group? Is machaon connected to polyxenes? Joanae is.
Is
> brevicauda connected to bairdii? Joanae is. And so on.
>
> Theory. A couple of dark ancestors in lower US. One say in AZ. that gives
> rise to indra. One in say what is now south Texas. The Texas entity moves
> north following the retreat of ice and advance of hosts. The Texas
refugum
> ancestor was a woodland species. Joanae is its nearest living relative.
The
> yellow morph re-emerges. It is the newest form and thus the most unstable
> genetically which is why it has so many subspecies and forms - moving
north
> into the formerly glaciated areas of upper US, Canada, Asia and Europe -
> spawning many form along the way. The older black taxa are more stable
> which is why they have less variation. In joanae its clinging to a
forested
> environment makes it less adaptable, restricts its range, and forecasts
its
> eventual extinction due to failure to evolve with the environment.
> Polyxenes, as an early split?, is still mostly dark but also is evolving
> lighter forms - coloro to the west. (nonimnate polyxenes? Another
refugum?
> Other problems.).
>
> Now, would I bet the farm on the above - absolutely not!!!    Felix,
might
> be laughing all the way through this. I don't care. I'm not trying to be
> right or prove anything. I am simply doing what scientists, and in this
> case evolutionary taxonomists, are supposed to do ASK QUESTIONS -
POSTULATE
> THEORIES - make 100 mistakes before the truth is evidenced or only the
best
> guess is left.  Failure is not falling down, it is never trying to get
up.
> Without independent thought there is no discovery, or invention of toilet
> paper.
>
> Curious in South Carolina.
> >
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