ancestors ( whole message?)

Ron Gatrelle gatrelle at tils-ttr.org
Thu Feb 1 15:31:15 EST 2001


Neil, (and others) did you get one of the other posts on this? The (whole
message?) is one of three tries to post this. The second half of the email
got cut off on (whole message). I think the one that made it is called (FW
2nd post). I am enjoying the responses to my postulations and theories.
There are some references to dark forms and galciation, I just don't have
time now to dig them out. My interest in that aspect has come about due to
my interest in Cercyonis pegala throughout North American. Research that I
hope will at least appear in part this year. That will largely depend on
the coauthors.
The more "speculative" and interesting (or funny) part of the post is the
part that got cut off.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Jones" <neil at NWJONES.DEMON.CO.UK>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Joanae ancestors ( whole message?)


> In article <00fb01c08c41$6cae50a0$9b0f1218 at gscrk1.sc.home.com>,
>   "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org> wrote:
> > In case someone missed it I am the one who put forth the idea
> > of joanae being the ancestor of N. American machaon group. Now, I did
> not
> > mean THE ancestor. I am looking at the possibility of joanae being the
> > extant species with the oldest connections. Why am I thinking along
> these
> > lines?
> >
-- snip--

> There is no reason to suppose that the original form was black.
>
> Going by the research published in The Swallowtail Butterflies of the
> Americas (I have my own copy). Some of the more distantly related
> butterflies like P. xuthus (or Sinoprinceps xuthus as it may be)
> are yellow. P. alexanor is also a yellow species.
> For those without the book these species apparently "split off" earlier
> than the polyxenes/machaon divide.
>
> The clincher to this appears to be the illustration that P. hospiton
> (The Corsican Swallowtail) appears more closely related to polyxenes
> than to machaon. Since hospiton is also yellow it seems that there is
> evidence that the black coloration evolved after this split.
> The apparent muddling of colour forms across the polyxenes and machaon
> groupings that are illustrated in the table could be the result of
> hybridisation.
>
> The explanation of the dark colour being an adaptation to climate is
> not sufficiently well proven for me to be certain of its validity.
> In general terms, of course, I accept it is a valid concept but we
> have yellow swallowtails here in Europe in far colder and places than
> your black ones. I would not rule our some other biochemical
> explanation.
> We know very little, of how changes on the biochemical level in larvae,
> for example, reflect themselves in adult wing pattern.
> (There is some evidence of changes in maculation patterns
> in Maniola jurtina being related to differences in gut flora in the
> larvae.)
>
> Of course what *none* of this genetic stuff tells us is whether P.
> joanae is a good species or not. A single gene mutation, or chromosomal
> reconfiguration could be enough to cause a reproductive barrier.
>
> In general it seems there is sufficient evidence. The great pity is
> that it isn't properly published so that we can all examine it.
> Perhaps, if the data cannot be organised for publication, someone
> should repeat the work.
>
> --
> Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/
> "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> National Nature Reserve
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 


More information about the Leps-l mailing list