Overpopulation v. Willful Stupidity

Sat Jan 27 09:41:00 EST 2001

I think that the reason that overpopulation is worse than it sometimes
seems is that each person feels the need to make "some kind of profit",
i.e. to take more than is truly needed. Ecologically, it would soon be
bad enough if the entire human population was at subsistence level (Joel
Cohen actually did try to estimate the subsistence carrying capacityof
the planet).  But most people are not satisfied with subsistence
survival.  Even on my recent visit to an isolated Indian village on the
upper Rio Manu in Peru, it was clear from their well-stocked larder that
they were above the subsistence level, and their intrusion into the
surrounding rainforest involved finding things to sell in town 12 hours
downriver,  so they could decorate their clearing with "western"
accoutrements such as outboard motors, radios, etc.

So what we extract is probably an exponential function of the population
(itself growing exponentially). To get really cynical, I think people
prefer war as a form of population regulation, because that too can be
profitable for survivors.  Perhaps I'll be less cynical when my
fractured elbow heals.

M. Gochfeld

Mark Walker wrote:

> I would argue that the "problem" described here can in fact be related
> to too many humans.  First, you wouldn't likely be concerned about or
> even notice such hunting behavior if there were fewer people (and
> hence more wilderness).  Second, there would likely be fewer hunters
> involved.  And third, hunters would be less likely to aggregate in
> areas that would be unable to handle their predation.  I would argue
> that even in the cases of the American Bison and the Carrier Pigeon,
> both were doomed in large part because of population effects.  Stupid
> population, true.  But too many stupid people is a function of too
> many people.I say habitat loss is directly related to human
> population.  It is also related to greed, selfishness, and power
> mongering.  But since these are human characteristics, I don't see how
> one can comfortably suggest that the world can handle a growing
> population - especially a growing population that is greedy, selfish,
> and power hungry.I once heard someone say that the whole population of
> the United States could comfortably live within the boundaries of
> Jacksonville, Florida.  I don't know how true this is - although it
> would be simple to prove/disprove based on simple area calculations.
> I suppose if this were possible, there could still be plenty of
> habitat left for Panthers and other higher order carnivores.Mark
> Walker.
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: Jean-Michel MAES [mailto:jmmaes at ibw.com.ni]
>      Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:41 AM
>      To: mbpi at juno.com; LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
>      Subject: RE: Overpopulation v. Willful Stupidity
>
>      Mass hunting still exists.
>
>      In Rio San JUan, Nicaragua, there is a company that promotes
>      duck hunting.
>      Rich people go there (mostly from US) and shoot ducks. 20
>      hunters can kill
>      up to 1,000 ducks in a week. They have no problems with
>      CITES as they did
>      not export nothing. In this case the problem is not over
>      population, just
>      crazy way of pleasure of some people.
>
>      That's not about collecting and nothing to see with
>      butterflies, sorry. I
>      will not do it more.
>
>      Sincerely,
>
>      Jean-Michel MAES
>      MUSEO ENTOMOLOGICO
>      AP 527
>      LEON
>      NICARAGUA
>      tel 505-3116586
>      jmmaes at ibw.com.ni
>      www.insectariumvirtual.com/termitero/termitero.htm#nicaragua
>
>      www.insectariumvirtual.com/lasmariposasdenicaragua.htm
>      www-museum.unl.edu/research/entomology/workers/JMaes.htm
>
>      ww-museum.unl.edu/research/entomology/database2/honduintro.htm
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: <mbpi at juno.com>
>      To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
>      Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:44 AM
>      Subject: Overpopulation v. Willful Stupidity
>
>
>      > Keeping things in context, since this IS "supposed" to be
>      a
>      > butterfly-related listserv...
>      >
>      > In my humble opinion (which I'm sure will be shot full of
>      holes by the
>      > rabid archivists with their stockpiled artillery of
>      irrefutable
>      > literature), I don't believe that "overpopulation" is the
>      REAL problem in
>      > the degredation of adequate habitat and the
>      extirpation/extinction of the
>      > biodiversity of local and transient populations.  I
>      believe it is the
>      > result of greed, ignorance, a lack of appreciation, poor
>      planning, and a
>      > lack of foresight.
>      >
>      > Witness the Passenger Pigeon:  it was exterminated at a
>      time when the US
>      > was barely populated and the numbers of Passenger Pigeons
>      FAR exceeded
>      > the number of people on the continent!  The North American
>      Bison almost
>      > met the same fate...for equally self-indulgent
>      reasons...and by a
>      > relative "handful" of the population. ( And I won't even
>      go into the
>      > Peregrine Falcon and the Bald Eagle, for fear of
>      re-opening that can of
>      > worms!!!!)
>      >
>      > Flash forward to the late 20th century.  We've come a long
>      way in
>      > "raising our consciousness," but we still adhere to our
>      proscribed mantra
>      > of "self-indulgence..." even more so than in the past
>      because we "know" a
>      > lot more and have easy access to that knowledge.  Except
>      NOW, we use that
>      > knowledge to rationalize our way out of sticky situtations
>      that we DON'T
>      > want to be "held accountable" for.
>      >
>      > No, I don't think "overpopulation" is the problem:  I
>      think it is just as
>      > easy for one "collecter" to exterminate a local
>      population, as it was for
>      > a small nation east of the Mississippi to eradicate the
>      entire Passenger
>      > Pigeon population.  This is not a slam-damning soliloquy
>      against
>      > collectors:  I believe there IS a place for RESPONSIBLE
>      collecting for
>      > research...not for self-gratuitious greed.  I think
>      capitalistic
>      > "developers" wreak far more havoc with the biodiversity of
>      indemic
>      > populations than collectors:  and for every "new
>      development" there is a
>      > city-scape or rural environment left a "ghost town" by the
>      scramble to
>      > inhabit these newly invested domains.  That's where the
>      "planners" SHOULD
>      > come into THEIR consciousness of rethinking these
>      abandoned neighborhoods
>      > to INCREASE the biodiversity rather than maintain the
>      sterilization that
>      > drove the dissatisfied tennants out to begin with...  Big
>      cities (and big
>      > corporations) seem to have a vendetta for corraling people
>      into
>      > hermetically sealed, inhumane environments.  It has
>      nothing to do with
>      > "overpopulation," it is simply a lack of regard for
>      anything living...
>      >
>      > I could go on and on (like so many others on this
>      listserv), but I'm
>      > through.
>      >
>      > Go ahead:  throw your stones!!!!
>      >
>      > M.B. Prondzinski
>      > USA
>      >
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