From be496 at lafn.org  Sun Jul  1 00:44:39 2001
From: be496 at lafn.org (Dameron, Wanda)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 21:44:39 -0700
Subject: Butterflies and Weather
References: <894b93b9.0106301017.53ef0ed@posting.google.com> <002901c101d5$45c6c1c0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> <3B3E9B7D.238CBB7D@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3B3EAAB7.99ECC015@lafn.org>

While y'all have a VERY valid point about awareness, at least here in
the west, quantities are up significantly over previous years and
interestingly a number of species that are uncommonly seen have been
viewed in fair numbers.....    Cheers, Wanda Dameron

Joel Lyons wrote:
> 
>   Mr. Taylor's point is well appreciated here.  Life-long
>   retrospective conversation in light of later (hyper?)
>   awareness has led Melanie and I to realize we
>   didn't notice butterflies at all in formative years
>   (the Nobokov Syndrome?), indeed we cannot
>   remember them ever being mentioned as part
>   of our upbringing.
> 
> Clay Taylor wrote:
> 
> > Marilyn -
> >
> >     Don't overlook another factor - are you more aware of butterflies than
> > in years past?  Since I started trying to learn dragonflies, I am seeing
> > many new ode species in all my familiar haunts.  This process first happened
> > when I became a birder in the 70's, and repeated itself in the 90's when
> > butterflies came to the forefront.
> >
> >     In the East, we have had pretty favorable weather for leps, so the year
> > seems to be above average and slightly ahead of schedule (with the exception
> > of Monarchs - they are few and far between).
> >
> > Clay Taylor
> > Moodus, CT
> > ctaylor at worldnet.att.net
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marilyn" <marilynp at nctc.net>
> > To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 2:17 PM
> > Subject: Butterflies and Weather
> >
> > > In my area (central USA)there seem to be many more butterflies this
> > > year than in some years past.  I am wondering what the cause may be?
> > >
> > > 1.  Weather significance
> > > 2.  Environmental significance
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Marilyn
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> > >
> > >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> 

-- 
Wanda Dameron
Flutterby Press
LA-NABA, LepSoc, ATL, Lorquin, Xerces
23424 Jonathan St., Los Angeles, Ca. 91304
818-340-0365     be496 at lafn.org

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Sun Jul  1 06:11:12 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 06:11:12 -0400
Subject: Butterflies and Weather and counts
In-Reply-To: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor@swarovskioptik.com>
        "Re: Butterflies and Weather" (Jun 30, 10:26pm)
References: <894b93b9.0106301017.53ef0ed@posting.google.com> 
	<002901c101d5$45c6c1c0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <1010701061115.ZM17886@Gochfeld>

Clay Taylor wrote (re Moodus CT): 
    "In the East, we have had pretty favorable weather for leps, so the 
year seems to be above average and slightly ahead of schedule (with the 
exception of Monarchs - they are few and far between)."

We in New Jersey are apparently not in the same "East" since butterflies 
have not been particularly numerous this year (except for the Vanessas, 
 Red Admiral and American Lady).  Even Pierids (Cabbage, sulphurs) have 
been low). 

Yesterday (June 30) we held the seventh Lakehurst 4jc with essentially 
identical coverage as last year.  The species count of 42 was the same 
as last year but there were fewer than half the number of individuals. 
More importantly every observer commented on the dearth of butterflies. 
It was a hot, miserable day. We thought the heat may have influenced 
activity, but when we checked spots in the afternoon there wasn't much 
improvement. Nectar sources, particularly Common Milkweed (A. vulgaris) 
were abundant. 

We'll see what the other New Jersey counts show. 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From speedshark2000 at altavista.com  Sun Jul  1 07:44:43 2001
From: speedshark2000 at altavista.com (Sharky)
Date: 1 Jul 2001 04:44:43 -0700
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
Message-ID: <20010701114443.3301.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

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From sebrez at webtv.net  Sun Jul  1 07:35:46 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 07:35:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: binoculars
Message-ID: <22878-3B3F0B12-132@storefull-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

What would be an ideal power binocular, if any, to observe butterflies? 


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From jhimmel at connix.com  Sun Jul  1 08:55:01 2001
From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 08:55:01 -0400
Subject: nightstreaks
Message-ID: <005d01c1022d$0b5fdbe0$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel>

The blacklighting for hairstreaks season has begun.  I got my 4th species to date, Banded Hairstreak, to my lights last night.  In the past, I've had White M, Hickory and Striped Hairstreaks.  The little butterfly always looks so sleek and delicate when it is surrounded by moths.  It's a cat amongst the dogs.

Also on the sheet earlier was a Tiger Swallowtail larva on "walkabout".  I brought it in and it's now a chrysallis.

As for the moths, numerous - probably over 50spp!  This heat is bringing them in.

John Himmelman
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Visit my websites at:
http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
www.ctamphibians.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Sun Jul  1 09:27:22 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:27:22 -0400
Subject: binoculars
References: <22878-3B3F0B12-132@storefull-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <000701c10231$90dc6320$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

    It's not the power that's important, it's the cloce-focus ability AND
the quality of the image.  A four-foot close-focus is worthless if the image
is terrible (poor sharpness, inaccurate colors, etc.), and optical standouts
that only let you get 15 feet from the butterfly are not much better.

    Mechanically, it is much easier (and cheaper) to design close-focus
capability into a compact binocular (a 20 to 32mm front objective size) than
a 42mm binocular.   That's why there are so few 8x42s and 10x42s on the
market that focus closer than 10 feet, and there are NO x50s or x56s.   The
ones that do are pretty expensive - Swarovski ELs (~$1400), B&L Elites
(~$800), Kahles (~$650), the newer Leicas (~$1100), Pentax WPs (~$550), etc.
The only logical reason to buy a compact is because of its small size and
weight - a full-size of the same price will give far better performance.

    Since we are generally doing our butterflying during sunny days, the
binocular's exit pupil size is not a big factor, since our eye pupil
contracts in the brightness.  However, the bigger objective lens size means
that the image has better resolution (it's linear - a 40mm binocular will
have DOUBLE the sharpness of a 20mm).  That means you will see finer details
on a butterfly / dragonfly with a 42mm vs. a 32mm from the same distance.
That advantage carries over into the birding world, where the bigger exit
pupil gives a brighter image in poor lighting conditions (the norm in
birding).

    OK, so choice #1 is price, and choice #2 is size.  NOW you can worry
about power.  Logically, you would opt for a high-power, close-focusing
unit.  However, the SMALLER the binocular is, the HARDER it is to hold
steady.  Also, if you wear eyeglasses, a low-power model should have a
longer eye-relief and a wider field of view - it does you no good if you
can't locate what you want to look at.

    Having sold binoculars at retail for many years, I have seen too many
people fall into the "Tim Taylor Syndrome (More Power!...huh, huh, huh...)"
(he's no relation of mine, that's for sure), and never get a good look at
what they want to see.  Also, some people can hold a binocular with less
shake, so a 10x gives better results, while others benefit greatly from
stepping down to an 8x or 7x model.

    In other words, listen carefully to the recommendations of others, and
then TRY THE BINOCULAR OUT FOR YOURSELF!  What works for them may not work
for you.

    My own choice?  E-mail me offline, 'cause I have an unfair advantage on
the subject.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at worldnet.att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: <sebrez at webtv.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:35 AM
Subject: binoculars


> What would be an ideal power binocular, if any, to observe butterflies?
>
>
>
> mail to: sebrez at webtv.net
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Sun Jul  1 09:27:59 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:27:59 -0400
Subject: binoculars
References: <22878-3B3F0B12-132@storefull-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c10231$a6455820$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

    It's not the power that's important, it's the close-focus ability AND
the quality of the image.  A four-foot close-focus is worthless if the image
is terrible (poor sharpness, inaccurate colors, etc.), and optical standouts
that only let you get 15 feet from the butterfly are not much better.

    Mechanically, it is much easier (and cheaper) to design close-focus
capability into a compact binocular (a 20 to 32mm front objective size) than
a 42mm binocular.   That's why there are so few 8x42s and 10x42s on the
market that focus closer than 10 feet, and there are NO x50s or x56s.   The
ones that do are pretty expensive - Swarovski ELs (~$1400), B&L Elites
(~$800), Kahles (~$650), the newer Leicas (~$1100), Pentax WPs (~$550), etc.
The only logical reason to buy a compact is because of its small size and
weight - a full-size of the same price will give far better performance.

    Since we are generally doing our butterflying during sunny days, the
binocular's exit pupil size is not a big factor, since our eye pupil
contracts in the brightness.  However, the bigger objective lens size means
that the image has better resolution (it's linear - a 40mm binocular will
have DOUBLE the sharpness of a 20mm).  That means you will see finer details
on a butterfly / dragonfly with a 42mm vs. a 32mm from the same distance.
That advantage carries over into the birding world, where the bigger exit
pupil gives a brighter image in poor lighting conditions (the norm in
birding).

    OK, so choice #1 is price, and choice #2 is size.  NOW you can worry
about power.  Logically, you would opt for a high-power, close-focusing
unit.  However, the SMALLER the binocular is, the HARDER it is to hold
steady.  Also, if you wear eyeglasses, a low-power model should have a
longer eye-relief and a wider field of view - it does you no good if you
can't locate what you want to look at.

    Having sold binoculars at retail for many years, I have seen too many
people fall into the "Tim Taylor Syndrome (More Power!...huh, huh, huh...)"
(he's no relation of mine, that's for sure), and never get a good look at
what they want to see.  Also, some people can hold a binocular with less
shake, so a 10x gives better results, while others benefit greatly from
stepping down to an 8x or 7x model.

    In other words, listen carefully to the recommendations of others, and
then TRY THE BINOCULAR OUT FOR YOURSELF!  What works for them may not work
for you.

    My own choice?  E-mail me offline, 'cause I have an unfair advantage on
the subject.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at worldnet.att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: <sebrez at webtv.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:35 AM
Subject: binoculars


> What would be an ideal power binocular, if any, to observe butterflies?
>
>
>
> mail to: sebrez at webtv.net
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>



 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Sun Jul  1 09:32:01 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:32:01 -0400
Subject: binoculars
References: <22878-3B3F0B12-132@storefull-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <002501c10232$360fa5a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

    It's not the power that's important, it's the close-focus ability AND
the quality of the image.  A four-foot close-focus is worthless if the image
is terrible (poor sharpness, inaccurate colors, etc.), and optical standouts
that only let you get 15 feet from the butterfly are not much better.

    Mechanically, it is much easier (and cheaper) to design close-focus
capability into a compact binocular (a 20 to 32mm front objective size) than
a 42mm binocular.   That's why there are so few 8x42s and 10x42s on the
market that focus closer than 10 feet, and there are NO x50s or x56s.   The
ones that do are pretty expensive - Swarovski ELs (~$1400), B&L Elites
(~$800), Kahles (~$650), the newer Leicas (~$1100), Pentax WPs (~$550), etc.
The only logical reason to buy a compact is because of its small size and
weight - a full-size of the same price will give far better performance.

    Since we are generally doing our butterflying during sunny days, the
binocular's exit pupil size is not a big factor, since our eye pupil
contracts in the brightness.  However, the bigger objective lens size means
that the image has better resolution (it's linear - a 40mm binocular will
have DOUBLE the sharpness of a 20mm).  That means you will see finer details
on a butterfly / dragonfly with a 42mm vs. a 32mm from the same distance.
That advantage carries over into the birding world, where the bigger exit
pupil gives a brighter image in poor lighting conditions (the norm in
birding).

    OK, so choice #1 is price, and choice #2 is size.  NOW you can worry
about power.  Logically, you would opt for a high-power, close-focusing
unit.  However, the SMALLER the binocular is, the HARDER it is to hold
steady.  Also, if you wear eyeglasses, a low-power model should have a
longer eye-relief and a wider field of view - it does you no good if you
can't locate what you want to look at.

    Having sold binoculars at retail for many years, I have seen too many
people fall into the "Tim Taylor Syndrome (More Power!...huh, huh, huh...)"
(he's no relation of mine, that's for sure), and never get a good look at
what they want to see.  Also, some people can hold a binocular with less
shake, so a 10x gives better results, while others benefit greatly from
stepping down to an 8x or 7x model.

    In other words, listen carefully to the recommendations of others, and
then TRY THE BINOCULAR OUT FOR YOURSELF!  What works for them may not work
for you.

    My own choice?  E-mail me offline, 'cause I have an unfair advantage on
the subject.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at worldnet.att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: <sebrez at webtv.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 7:35 AM
Subject: binoculars


> What would be an ideal power binocular, if any, to observe butterflies?
>
>
>
> mail to: sebrez at webtv.net
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>




 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Sun Jul  1 09:51:23 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:51:23 -0400
Subject: Butterflies and Weather and counts
References: <894b93b9.0106301017.53ef0ed@posting.google.com> <002901c101d5$45c6c1c0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> <1010701061115.ZM17886@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <003601c10234$eafeb300$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

All -

    Sorry about the geographical imprecision.  I should have said Southern
New England.  Of course, if you are from CA or TX or The Midwest, that's
still "The East".

    Also sorry to hear that Michael's count was low. My Madison / Old Lyme
SBC on 6/19 set a new record for species and the total number of individuals
was greater than the last three years' counts combined.  In the past few
days, the next generation of whites and sulphurs have popped out, summer
skippers and satyrs are emerging, and the butterflying is good.

Clay

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gochfeld" <gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: Butterflies and Weather and counts


> Clay Taylor wrote (re Moodus CT):
>     "In the East, we have had pretty favorable weather for leps, so the
> year seems to be above average and slightly ahead of schedule (with the
> exception of Monarchs - they are few and far between)."
>
> We in New Jersey are apparently not in the same "East" since butterflies
> have not been particularly numerous this year (except for the Vanessas,
>  Red Admiral and American Lady).  Even Pierids (Cabbage, sulphurs) have
> been low).
>
> Yesterday (June 30) we held the seventh Lakehurst 4jc with essentially
> identical coverage as last year.  The species count of 42 was the same
> as last year but there were fewer than half the number of individuals.
> More importantly every observer commented on the dearth of butterflies.
> It was a hot, miserable day. We thought the heat may have influenced
> activity, but when we checked spots in the afternoon there wasn't much
> improvement. Nectar sources, particularly Common Milkweed (A. vulgaris)
> were abundant.
>
> We'll see what the other New Jersey counts show.
>
> Mike Gochfeld
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From barb at birdnut.obtuse.com  Sun Jul  1 09:54:28 2001
From: barb at birdnut.obtuse.com (Barb Beck)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 07:54:28 -0600
Subject: binoculars
In-Reply-To: <22878-3B3F0B12-132@storefull-122.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <PGEAKIAKMCDDEDNEOIBCKENJCDAA.barb@birdnut.obtuse.com>

Hi,

I like 10x42 close focus - my husband likes his 8x42 close focus.  The
number one thing is to get close focus binoculars THAT WORK FOR YOU.  All of
our eyes are different.  My husband and I wear  glasses, are very
nearsighted  and are therefore more limited in binocular choice than people
who do not wear glasses.  We use B&L Elites because that is what WORKS for
us.  Since we are avid birders, butterfliers, dragonfliers, etc we made the
choice to fork out for such expensive tools. We love them, but I am NOT
necessarily recommending them for you.  Check out what works best for your
eyes and pocketbook.

Enjoy the flutterbys

Barb Beck
Edmonton



 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

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From jrlyons at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  1 10:04:14 2001
From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 09:04:14 -0500
Subject: Clay/Binoculars
Message-ID: <3B3F2DDE.E8F1D66@bellsouth.net>

Your thoughts on cameras, please, Clay!



 
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   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

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From mbpi at juno.com  Sun Jul  1 20:09:11 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 19:09:11 -0500
Subject: Fw: Re: Butterflies and Weather
Message-ID: <20010701.190914.-206143.2.mbpi@juno.com>

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <mbpi at juno.com>
To: marilynp at nctc.net
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 19:06:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Butterflies and Weather
Message-ID: <20010701.190658.-206143.1.mbpi at juno.com>

I recall back in May when the first Red Admirals started appearing in
huge numbers, I predicted this would be a banner year for
butterflies...at least in the Chicago area...and it indeed has been
exceptional.

Since I've been back in Chicago some five summers now, it wasn't until
late July that I would notice that a diversity of species made their
appearance.  This year, I've seen more species of butterflies in fewer
places and closer to home, than my former years of day-tripping to noted
butterfly spots throughout the area.  A Variegated Fritillary at my
garbage cans in the alley?!  Unheard of!  Yet there it was in mid-June
when I took out my garbage.  Pipevine and Spicebush Swallowtails in the
container gardens on the terrace at the Field Museum on Lake Michigan, 
Monarchs in May,  Red Spotted Purples and a Grey Hairstreak on the Museum
Campus, and an Eastern Tiger Swallowtail on a busy street near the
grocery store...and more Commas, Question Marks, Azures, American Ladies
and Red Admirals than I've ever encountered in my daily preambles to and
from my home.  And I'm not even looking for them!

As for the ubiquitous Cabbage Whites:  Barely any to speak of...they are
outnumbered by Clouded Sulphurs.  Even non-butterfly enthusiasts have
remarked on the number of butterflies they have observed near their
homes' proximity.

Whatever the reason, all I can say is:  It's about time!!!  It could just
be the bugs have finally discovered Mayor Daley's "City in a Garden," and
are taking advantage of all the  invested years of plantings...

As an aside:  I never witnessed any true "northward movement" of the
Vanessas...just random flight direction, lots of nectaring and
territorials displays.  The Red Admirals are still present in large
numbers.  

Also, a man who lives in the southwestern part of the county told me he
discovered "hundreds of Monarchs" roosting in his garage "two weeks ago"
(!)  Was he deluded?!

M.B. Prondzinski

On 30 Jun 2001 11:17:01 -0700 marilynp at nctc.net (Marilyn) writes:
> In my area (central USA)there seem to be many more butterflies this
> year than in some years past.  I am wondering what the cause may be?
> 
> 1.  Weather significance
> 2.  Environmental significance
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marilyn
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  
> 

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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Sun Jul  1 19:14:45 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 19:14:45 -0400
Subject: Rearing P. canadensis
Message-ID: <3B3FAEE5.53AE@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hello fellow lepidopterophiles,

I was able to recently capture some P. canadensis, 1 male and 2 females.
I have never reared these butterflies before, and was wondering if
anyone had any suggestions as to how I would get them to mate and
oviposite and such.  How big of an enclosure should I provide?  What's
the prefered host plant?  I've heard that aspen (Populus) as well as ash
(Fraxinus) are used, but there are lots of both species around my house,
but I haven't seen a single P. canadensis around my neighbourhood so
perhaps this isn't so applicable in my case?

TIA
Xi Wang
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sun Jul  1 22:38:46 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 22:38:46 -0400
Subject: Butterflies and weather
Message-ID: <006101c102a0$1eb9cac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Today's weather has very little to do with most of the butterflies we see
today. The numbers being seen are because of yesterdays weather - actually
last years (seasons). The cold winter and conducive conditions for egg and
pupal survival. Before that conducive conditions for larval survival. Don't
be surprised if the explosion in this years Vanessa species results in
larval overcrowding, insufficient host availability for the size of the
demand, increased disease and predation which would result in a bust year
next season and the next and next. There will be more parasitic wasps and
flies now that will have the upper hand in the food chain for a few years.
Then the cycle will begin over again.

What I am saying is that we notice adults and their population
fluctuations. We do not see the immatures and their fluctuations. We start
with many many times the number eggs than larvae and many many times the
number of larvae than pupae and adults.
So if there is a big drop next year don't blame it on spraying, over
collecting, etc. "blame" (attribute) it to an unhealthy out of balance
population explosion the season before - and see it as nature simply
bringing populations back to normal levels.
Ron


 
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From stanlep at extremezone.com  Mon Jul  2 00:35:18 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:35:18 -0700
Subject: Fw: Re: Butterflies and Weather
References: <20010701.190914.-206143.2.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B3FFA06.6E8938FF@extremezone.com>

> Whatever the reason, all I can say is:  It's about time!!!  It could just

I think that because the butterfly abundance is so widespread across the
U.S., and because there have been some unusual dispersal/migrations of
the painted lady and red admiral, and also because of my own observation
during memorial day weekend last year and particularly this year in the
San Bernardino mountains, the real cause of the increased and early
abundance is not usual mix of ecological factors, but instead GLOBAL
WARMING due to man-woman made causes (anthropogenic causes).   

Stan

 
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From Bernie.Farrell at btinternet.com  Mon Jul  2 02:25:56 2001
From: Bernie.Farrell at btinternet.com (Bernie Farrell)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:25:56 +0100
Subject: Help with Identification
References: <G05%6.27639$4i5.2021358@news1.cableinet.net>, <9hknla$33j$1@venus.telepac.pt>, <Xaq%6.38186$4i5.2846785@news1.cableinet.net>
Message-ID: <9hp43i$snq$1@uranium.btinternet.com>

Hi(from the right hand side of England)
I am pretty certain it is a burnet.
"John Williams" <John.newsgroups at nospam.Bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:Xaq%6.38186$4i5.2846785 at news1.cableinet.net...
> Have just managed to find pictures but they are all black(ish) with red
> spots.  I am 99% positive that these are red winged with black spots.  I
> went out this morning and there were none about but I guess that is
because
> it was overcast and about to rain.  I will look again on Monday morning
and
> see if I can catch one to have a closer look.
>
> Tanks for your suggestions
> John
>
> "Eduardo" <edu_marabuto at netcabo.pt> wrote in message
> news:9hknla$33j$1 at venus.telepac.pt...
> > HI
> > Probably a burnet (Zygaenidae) or an Arctid (Arctidae).
> > There in England maybe you saw a 6-spot burnet (Zygaena filipendulae) or
a
> > 5-spot burnet (Zygaena trifolii) and if an arctid, a Cinnabar (Tyria
> > jacobaeae).
> > Good luck
> >
> > Eduardo Marabuto
> >
> >
> >
>
>



 
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From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com  Mon Jul  2 06:04:58 2001
From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:04:58 -0300
Subject: red admiral mercy (nettles) kill
Message-ID: <002e01c102de$73e0eb80$04f3b18e@oehlke>

Large numbers of "red admirals" also invaded Prince Edward Island, Canada,
and I have had to do some mercy killing (to save my nettles). I expect the
large numbers will result in many starving caterpillars (if not in the first brood, then in the next) throughout the east
as the butterfly to nettle ratio was/is very high.  Papilio canadensis are
also very abundant and I am starting to see white admirals here.
The luna population also seems to be very high this year.  Perhaps the heavy
snowfall offered them some extra protection from predators
If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to
http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm 
and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites.  
Thankyou!

Bill Oehlke
Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0
http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew
oehlkew at islandtelecom.com
Phone: 902-838-3455
fax: 902-838-0866
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Mon Jul  2 06:48:31 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 06:48:31 -0400
Subject: Butterflies and weather
In-Reply-To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle@tils-ttr.org>
        "Butterflies and weather" (Jul  1, 10:38pm)
References: <006101c102a0$1eb9cac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <1010702064836.ZM8734@Gochfeld>

Ron wrote: 

"Today's weather has very little to do with most of the butterflies we 
see today. The numbers being seen are because of yesterdays weather - 
actually last years (seasons). The cold winter and conducive conditions 
for egg and pupal survival. Before that conducive conditions for larval 
survival. Don't be surprised if the explosion in this years Vanessa 
species results in larval overcrowding, insufficient host availability 
for the size of the demand, increased disease and predation which would 
result in a bust year next season and the next and next. There will be 
more parasitic wasps and flies now that will have the upper hand in the 
food chain for a few years. Then the cycle will begin over again."

------------------------------------------------------------------

This seems right on the mark.  Vanessa virginiensis (American Lady) was 
unusually common this spring (not in huge numbers, but commoner than 
most years), and a number of clones of Plantain-leafed Pussytoes, its 
commonest host in our area (Somerset Co, NJ) have been wiped out. It 
seems like the females almost prefer to lay in clones (about 1 m in 
diameter) that have already received eggs, even when there are untouched 
clones of plant nearby (within 10 m). We thought it might have to do 
with shade or sun, but no consistent pattern emerges. 

Fly parasites do seem to be common, but not enough data (yet) to 
indicate whether they are more or less common this year than previously.

However, on weeks where there is a lot of butterfly nectaring activity, 
there is a clear suppression of activity on really hot, bright 
afternoons (temp > 90f, strong insolation). 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Mon Jul  2 07:52:33 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:52:33 -0400
Subject: Butterfly Monitoring Scheme
In-Reply-To: "Barb Beck" <barb@birdnut.obtuse.com>
        "RE: types of butterfly counts" (Jun 25,  1:30pm)
References: <PGEAKIAKMCDDEDNEOIBCKEJLCDAA.barb@birdnut.obtuse.com>
Message-ID: <1010702075236.ZM8734@Gochfeld>

Last week Barb Beck wrote a rather elaborate message about the Pollard 
Method and counts. I'll respond here to the first of her "questions", 
which I assume was largely rhetorical:  MIKE GOCHFELD

Barb Beckwrote: ,
"Are the Pollard walks randomly assigned or just in areas where people 
like to walk?  Around here people are just picking places that are 
convenient and nice to walk.  We are trying to do one.

True they are very useful in getting precise information and very good 
data on a very small area.  But are people covering areas which are not 
nice areas to go for a butterfly walk in?   Are volunteers happy 
covering an area with few butterflies or only very common butterflies 
week after week?"

The answer is NO. In Britain the Butterfly Monitoring Scheme began in 
1976 (there was an earlier survey beginning in 1967). It began at the 
Monks Wood Reserve. It has spread in UK, but mainly in the southern part 
of England where there are enough observers (and enough butterflies to 
attract interest and provide data). 

The results are presented in the book by E. Pollard and T.J. Yates, 
MONITORING BUTTERFLIES FOR ECOLOGY AND CONSERVATION published by Chapman 
and Hall. in 1993. 

Chapter 4 deals with sites and site selection.  The sites include

Nature Conservancy Council preserves =51
Local Wildlife or Woodland Trust Preserves =17
Royal Society for Protection of Bird Preserves =13
Forestry Commission sites =7 (I don't know if these are preserves in any 
meaningful sense)
National Trust lands  =4
Local Authorities (parks) =2
Private lands (mainly farmlands) =12

It specifically states that other sites (e.g. suburban gardens) are not 
represented.  There is no evidence that sites are chosen to be randomly 
representative of the countryside.  Rather they would seem to be optimum 
butterfly sites, so that the population trends can be assessed under 
optimal data gathering conditions.  

Sites are visited at least once a week from April thru September.  The 
traditional transect was along a "ride" through woods which seems 
uniquely English.  All butterflies within 5 m in front of the observer 
are counted and no extra attempt is made to dislodge or flush hidden 
butterflies (i.e. beating the bush).

There's more to the method which is worth considering. 

So it is not necessary to organize a count for your local shopping mall 
parking lot, but if you had a count there when it was a "wasteland" 
(i.e. an old field full of flowering plants), then documenting the total 
demise of biodiversity might be worth doing once.  

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Mon Jul  2 07:54:19 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:54:19 -0400
Subject: Monitoring Scheme
In-Reply-To: "Barb Beck" <barb@birdnut.obtuse.com>
        "RE: types of butterfly counts" (Jun 25,  1:30pm)
References: <PGEAKIAKMCDDEDNEOIBCKEJLCDAA.barb@birdnut.obtuse.com>
Message-ID: <1010702075422.ZM8734@Gochfeld>

More on the transect counts. 

We tried to encourage New Jersey to undertake Pollard type monitoring 
(rather than relying on the 4JC), and had a section on this in our book 
BUTTERFLIES OF NEW JERSEY. 

The Department of Environmental Protection actually looked favorably on 
the idea of establishing monitoring schemes in State Parks and State-run 
Wildlife Management Areas (areaswhich presumably will be around for a 
while). 

We don't have such a program in place yet. 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Mon Jul  2 07:58:38 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:58:38 -0400
Subject: What to blame
In-Reply-To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle@tils-ttr.org>
        "Butterflies and weather" (Jul  1, 10:38pm)
References: <006101c102a0$1eb9cac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <1010702075841.ZM8734@Gochfeld>

I agreed entirely with the first part of Ron's message on Butterflies 
and Weather.  He also wrote: 


"So if there is a big drop next year don't blame it on spraying, over
collecting, etc. "blame" (attribute) it to an unhealthy out of balance
population explosion the season before - and see it as nature simply
bringing populations back to normal levels."
				****
Actually spraying produces a big drop this year (particularly in 
univoltines). Whether it is apparent next year depends on phenology and 
whether there are early life stages hidden away.  

Mike Gochfeld



 
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From team at search4science.com  Mon Jul  2 09:13:55 2001
From: team at search4science.com (Nicolai Jorgensen)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:13:55 +0200
Subject: Get BIOLOGY news FREE every week.
Message-ID: <9hpsc0$3k3$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>

Go to search4science and sign up for the BIOLOGY newsletter.

http://www.search4science.com/news/

You will get the weekly update on the biology news from
search4science.

You may also try the Dynamic Search powered by Northern Light.
http://www.search4science.com


--

Best regards,

Nicolai Jorgensen
Editor - search4science
Gaustadall?en 21
N-0349 Oslo
Norway





 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Mon Jul  2 15:35:04 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:35:04 -0400
Subject: What to blame
References: <006101c102a0$1eb9cac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <1010702075841.ZM8734@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <004801c1032e$1862ed80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gochfeld" <gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: What to blame


> I agreed entirely with the first part of Ron's message on Butterflies
> and Weather.  He also wrote:

> "So if there is a big drop next year don't blame it on spraying, over
> collecting, etc. "blame" (attribute) it to an unhealthy out of balance
> population explosion the season before - and see it as nature simply
> bringing populations back to normal levels."
> ****
> Actually spraying produces a big drop this year (particularly in
> univoltines). Whether it is apparent next year depends on phenology and
> whether there are early life stages hidden away.
>
> Mike Gochfeld

From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Mon Jul  2 15:56:48 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:56:48 -0400
Subject: what to blame
Message-ID: <005801c10331$2153b7a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Michael Gochfeld wrote:

I agreed entirely with the first part of Ron's message on Butterflies
and Weather.  He also wrote:

"So if there is a big drop next year don't blame it on spraying, over
collecting, etc. "blame" (attribute) it to an unhealthy out of balance
population explosion the season before - and see it as nature simply
bringing populations back to normal levels."
****
Actually spraying produces a big drop this year (particularly in
univoltines). Whether it is apparent next year depends on phenology and
whether there are early life stages hidden away.
Mike Gochfeld


New post from Ron:
I agree.  I was only referring to the knee-jerk that the fringe element
always throws up no matter what other "evidence" (factors) may be involved.

Here is a new thread and tragic element of modern population explosions.
When habitat is as it should be (as God intended it) - available-,
population explosion is a mechanism to facilitate species dispersal into
new unoccupied but suitable niches. For example, a fire would burn 2,000
acres and open up the forest floor and make clearing where things like
Elfin and skipper species could now move into and sustain there existence
as organisms. At the same time the original area from which this explosion
and dispersal originated might well become naturally extinct by 1) that
habitat area's continued evolution to climax forest or 2)
parasite/predation pressure.

The tragic element is that the "new" (old fire recycled areas) are now
parking lots or corn fields due to man's destruction of habitat. Yes, we
can artificially manage habitat for these now trapped local populations.
But we can not "protect" them from the natural cycles of parasites and
disease which are the natural controls.
Ron



 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Tue Jul  3 03:04:36 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:04:36 +0100
Subject: Are Butterflies Moths?
References: <20010626.205858.-249127.1.mbpi@juno.com>
		 <3B394A1A.78A30AD1@csus.edu> <3B395929.968B3F4C@theriver.com> <3B39E495.E58958BC@csus.edu> <3B39F6E7.9A9DDC29@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <3B416E84.7E77FFE0@anu.ie>

Hank & Priscilla Brodkin wrote:
> 
> Patrick Foley wrote:
> >
> > Hank and Priscilla,
> >
> > I was joking about the cladistic tendency to enforce branch inclusions (and I
> > recently noticed that Jesse Colin Young is touring). I am all in favor of useful
> > argument.
> >
> > Patrick Foley
> > patfoley at csus.edu
> >
> 
> Patrick -
> I had just gotten back from a day in Tucson.  The heat must have gotten
> to me ;-)
> While I was there I read an article in Time Magazine.  Apparently they
> now "know" how the universe will end ("not with a bang, but with a
> whimper").  They arrived at this decision just because of argumentative
> folk who strongly disagreed with each other - which immediately reminded
> me of the give and take on Leps-L.
> Not that any great discoveries will be made, nor probably will any minds
> be changed - but who knows?
> Our "second Spring" has arrived in southeastern Arizona.  It should be a
> good one for those of you who like insects.
> Cheers!
> 
> --
>                      Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
>                   Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ

Douglas Adams has adequately described the end of the universe; I see no
reason for further speculation. He agrees with Eliot, of course.
He also became a confirmed atheist, but is now where savage indignation
will no longer wound him. And, I hope, received an adequate apology for
the inconvenience.
No butterflies attended the chamber music festival in Cork except a few
whites, probably Pieris brassicae but who knows. They and a couple of
little girls were dancing in the sunlight in the flower garden while I
was supposed to be paying attention to a Master Class taught by Valentin
Borodin, I think his name was. Exquisite. 
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland
>

 
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From my at mole.bio.cam.ac.uk  Tue Jul  3 06:22:49 2001
From: my at mole.bio.cam.ac.uk (Mark Youles)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:22:49 +0100
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
References: <20010701114443.3301.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <my-0307011122490001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>

In article <20010701114443.3301.cpmta at c012.sfo.cp.net>,
speedshark2000 at altavista.com wrote:

>  Hi this is Heliconius and i'm a grade 8 student.
>  i would just like to know when does a caterpillar know it's time to make a 
>  chrysalis, or what stimulates it to do so. 
>  i would greatly appreciate it if you could email me your answers before July 
>  4

Without getting too compicated, the process is initiated in the insect
brain, where neurosecretory cells release Prothoracicotropic hormone
(PTTH) in responce to neural, hormonal or environmental stimuli.

It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval 'shrinkage'
and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce a
further 'giant' larval stage.

Hope this helps,


Mark

 
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From andre at ktei.net  Tue Jul  3 13:43:17 2001
From: andre at ktei.net (Andre@KTEI.net)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:43:17 -0400
Subject: Mystery (to me at least) moth identification
Message-ID: <001601c103e7$a5500ca0$7300a8c0@192.168.0.4>

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could help me identifying this moth.  I live in
Ontario.

Thanks for your time.

Andre


 
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From andre at ktei.net  Tue Jul  3 13:45:56 2001
From: andre at ktei.net (Andre@KTEI.net)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:45:56 -0400
Subject: Sorry I forgot the picture... Mystery (to me at least) moth identification
Message-ID: <001701c103e8$08049aa0$7300a8c0@192.168.0.4>



 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Andre at KTEI.net [mailto:andre at ktei.net]
Sent:	Tuesday, July 3, 2001 1:43 PM
To:	'LEPS-L at LISTS.YALE.EDU'
Subject:	Mystery (to me at least) moth identification

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could help me identifying this moth.  I live in
Ontario.

Thanks for your time.

Andre
-------------- next part --------------
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From andre at ktei.net  Tue Jul  3 13:51:36 2001
From: andre at ktei.net (Andre@KTEI.net)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:51:36 -0400
Subject: Attachment picture the other may have been too large: Mystery (to me at least) moth identification
Message-ID: <001b01c103e8$d04eb680$7300a8c0@192.168.0.4>



 -----Original Message-----
From:  	Andre at KTEI.net [mailto:andre at ktei.net]
Sent:	Tuesday, July 3, 2001 1:43 PM
To:	'LEPS-L at LISTS.YALE.EDU'
Subject:	Mystery (to me at least) moth identification

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could help me identifying this moth.  I live in
Ontario.

Thanks for your time.

Andre
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From TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov  Tue Jul  3 17:12:32 2001
From: TEichlin at cdfa.ca.gov (Thomas Eichlin)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 14:12:32 -0700
Subject: Attachment picture the other may have been too large:
	Mystery (to me at least) moth identification
Message-ID: <sb41d2d6.000@smtp1.cdfa.ca.gov>

Malacosoma sp. prob. disstria
(forest tent caterpillar)
Lasiocampidae

Hope this helps,
Tom

>>> "Andre at KTEI.net" <andre at ktei.net> 07/03/01 10:51AM >>>


 -----Original Message-----
From:  	Andre at KTEI.net [mailto:andre at ktei.net] 
Sent:	Tuesday, July 3, 2001 1:43 PM
To:	'LEPS-L at LISTS.YALE.EDU' 
Subject:	Mystery (to me at least) moth identification

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could help me identifying this moth.  I live in
Ontario.

Thanks for your time.

Andre


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From BruWebb at rcsis.com  Tue Jul  3 18:51:33 2001
From: BruWebb at rcsis.com (Bruce Webb)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:51:33 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <005301c10412$b65f35e0$1e9c3c42@rcsis.com>

SUBSCRIBE LEPS-L Bruce Webb




 
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From stanlep at extremezone.com  Tue Jul  3 18:57:42 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 15:57:42 -0700
Subject: Butterflies and weather
References: "Ron, Gatrelle", <gatrelle@tils-ttr.org>
Message-ID: <3B424DE6.458E06A2@extremezone.com>

 
> "Today's weather has very little to do with most of the butterflies we
> see today. The numbers being seen are because of yesterdays weather -
> actually last years (seasons). The cold winter and conducive conditions
> for egg and pupal survival. Before that conducive conditions for larval
> survival. Don't be surprised if the explosion in this years Vanessa
> species results in larval overcrowding, insufficient host availability
> for the size of the demand, increased disease and predation which would
> result in a bust year next season and the next and next. There will be
> more parasitic wasps and flies now that will have the upper hand in the
> food chain for a few years. Then the cycle will begin over again."
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> This seems right on the mark.  

With respect to the last sentence,  I disagree.  One might look at local
species, or one widespread species like the painted lady and be tempted
to apply the usual population dynamic considerations, such as
predator/parasite-pray interactions, but I think when you look at the
whole picture, i.e., a lot of other of species and the whole U.S.
including other countries, global warming is the more probable
explanation for what we have been seeing this year.  And why should be
object?  If global warming is resulting in more and earlier lepidopteran
species, then this could be viewed one good side effect of it.

Stan

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Tue Jul  3 18:15:19 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 18:15:19 -0400
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
References: <20010701114443.3301.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>, <my-0307011122490001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3B4243F7.2770@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

> It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
> 'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval 'shrinkage'
> and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce a
> further 'giant' larval stage.

Are you saying that instead of pupating, the larva would progress to a
further instar?  In which case, just what would be the maximum number of
instars a larva could go through?

Peace,
Xi Wang

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Tue Jul  3 18:44:00 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 18:44:00 -0400
Subject: Bfly Egg Question
Message-ID: <3B424AB0.4712@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi y'all,

Anyone know roughly how long it takes for P. canadensis eggs to hatch at
room temp., say 25 Celcius?

TIA,
Xi Wang

 
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From jhimmel at connix.com  Tue Jul  3 22:34:12 2001
From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:34:12 -0400
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
Message-ID: <002701c10431$d0b647c0$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel>

I remember reading of a study conducted by Thomas Say (who also first described the Potato Beetle) in 1822 of the effects if Apanteles congregatus, a parasitoid wasp on the sphingid, Manduca sexta.  Apparently the more wasps in the caterpillar, the more molts it will go through, allowing more of the wasps to get enough nutrients to develop.  Sometimes the larva will even go into an extra (6th) molt if the wasps need more time.  They are able to induce a high level of juvenile hormone to keep the larva from pupating.

John
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Visit my websites at:
http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
www.ctamphibians.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
-----Original Message-----
From: gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?


>Hi,
>
>> It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
>> 'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval 'shrinkage'
>> and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce a
>> further 'giant' larval stage.
>
>Are you saying that instead of pupating, the larva would progress to a
>further instar?  In which case, just what would be the maximum number of
>instars a larva could go through?
>
>Peace,
>Xi Wang
>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------ 
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
> 
>
>
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Wed Jul  4 01:19:48 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:19:48 -0400
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
References: <20010701114443.3301.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>, <my-0307011122490001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk> <3B4243F7.2770@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <000801c10448$f26bec00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?


> Hi,
>
> > It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
> > 'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval
'shrinkage'
> > and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce
a
> > further 'giant' larval stage.
>
> Are you saying that instead of pupating, the larva would progress to a
> further instar?  In which case, just what would be the maximum number of
> instars a larva could go through?
>
> Peace,
> Xi Wang
>

They made a movie on this - Mothra, I think it was called :-)
RG


 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Wed Jul  4 00:06:37 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:06:37 -0400
Subject: Bfly Reproduction
Message-ID: <3B42964D.1D36@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi y'all,

When butterflies mate, are all of the female's eggs fertilized by that
male right there and then, or does the female retain the sperm somewhere
so that she'll have some say in when the eggs become fertilized?  To
elaborate, here's a hypothetical example.  Suppose one finds a butterfly
which has just died, but has mated.  If the eggs were removed from the
abdomen, would the eggs be fertile?

Peace,
Xi Wang

 
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From my at mole.bio.cam.ac.uk  Wed Jul  4 04:23:48 2001
From: my at mole.bio.cam.ac.uk (Mark Youles)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 09:23:48 +0100
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
References: <20010701114443.3301.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>, <my-0307011122490001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>, <3B4243F7.2770@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <my-0407010923480001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>

In article <3B4243F7.2770 at mb.sympatico.ca>, gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca> wrote:

> > It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
> > 'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval 'shrinkage'
> > and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce a
> > further 'giant' larval stage.
> 
> Are you saying that instead of pupating, the larva would progress to a
> further instar?  In which case, just what would be the maximum number of
> instars a larva could go through?

Yep that's right.  From what I remember the experiments were conducted on
the Death-head Hawk's.  The results were that the larva proceeded into
giant 7th instar.  They then attempted to reinject the larva at the end of
this stage also, but the this time the larve did pupate.

This IS however all from recollection!


Mark

 
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From radioguy101 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  4 08:29:45 2001
From: radioguy101 at hotmail.com (Charles Montague)
Date: 4 Jul 2001 05:29:45 -0700
Subject: Moth I.D.
Message-ID: <6630e959.0107040429.68da3f4d@posting.google.com>

Last weekend I was on a collecting trip in Eastern Pennsylvania. A
number of Noctuidae, Pyralidae, and geometridae were found. However I
came across a moth I have never seen before.

It was a small white moth about 20 to 25cm in wing span. At rest the
wings were at 90deg to the wall that it was on. Much as a butterfly
would be at rest. Because it was about 2200 hours EDST the possibly of
it being a butterfly was unlikely. The FW and HW were rounded. With no
other markings, ie: black or brown dots.

I will be going back to the same place this weekend, and with any luck
be able to get a better I.D. Can anyone help me on the I.D.

Chuck

 
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From david.milsted at virgin.net  Wed Jul  4 10:28:16 2001
From: david.milsted at virgin.net (davidmilsted)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:28:16 +0100
Subject: Mullein moth
Message-ID: <YJF07.1033$Jk6.202749@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>



Can anyone kindly point me in the direction of a web photo + details of the
Mullein moth (described in every book and site as 'rarely seen' - but
somebody must have!). We have adopted a caterpillar ... you know how it is
... which is happily chomping its way through buddeia (we don't have a
mullein plant). It would be nice to know what it's going to turn into ...
and when.

Thanks,

DM
david.milsted at virgin.net



 
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From Monarchrst at aol.com  Wed Jul  4 16:15:03 2001
From: Monarchrst at aol.com (Monarchrst at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:15:03 EDT
Subject: Arizona Admiral
Message-ID: <d0.1802fbaf.2874d347@aol.com>

Yesterday evening we had a red admiral flying and alighting around our pool 
patio.  The first I have seen in five years at our house here in the desert.  
The massive migration of painted ladies earlier in the year has well past and 
only a very occasional one seen now.

Ian Watkinson, Yuma, Arizona

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Wed Jul  4 16:33:25 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:33:25 -0400
Subject: one way street
Message-ID: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

A week ago I got back about midnight from 12 hours of driving (total round
trip) and 9 hours of doing Leps survey work for the Forest Service. It had
been nearly 40 hours since I had had any sleep. Tired but wired, I decided
to post a mere 9 species list on the carolina leps group. Knowing that most
of the folks there like to use common names (something that I am just not
in the habit of doing after 40 + years of working with butterflies) I dug
out a book and furnished 5 of the nine with common names (one does not have
a common name).  Well I got this nicely worded, but still terse,
intolerant, and condescending post the next day asking me to please use
common names with the scientific ones.  I wrote the person back that I try
to do this as much as possible to be considerate of those not familiar with
the correct (scientific) names. I told them I was a little perplexed by
their post as I HAD furnished common names for most of the species - and
went to extra effort to do so.

I bit my tongue on wanting to ask if they ever wrote the people who only
post common names asking them to please use the scientific ones also for
the benefit of those who may not be familiar with the common ones. I did
tell the individual that one problem I do have with common names is that
many of the ones I know and have used for 40 years have now been changed to
whatever the new groups want to call them - especially those which were
named after collectors. (It is not that they were named after a person, but
after a collector that they don't like.)

Over the last couple of days some posts have come in that list species by
neither common or correct names. I have seen this several times before and
today have just had all of it I can take. The last two from two differnet
persons were:  "lots of SSS skippers.."  and  " a LBJ skipper that.."  Who
is supposed to know what these are other than some snoby little dumbded
down click that likes to slam those who dare to use correct names? If this
isn't a one way street I don't know what is.

God forbid that I should email one of these individuals or GROUPS and ever
suggest they be considerate and provide a-common-names-unfamiliar old timer
like me with names I know  - or that one of the many subscribers to these
lists from a foreign country dare to ask what the heck an LBJ skipper is.
The only LBJ they probably know is a dead US president.

This post is not about the use of common names or correct names. It is
about a whole buss load of people who are just plain rude. They love to
dish it out but can't take it. It is their way or the else. They are a
majority and don't give a rats behind how others think (in scientific
names), or what others like (collecting). They are subscribed to
internationally open, public, chat groups and demand that everyone else use
and understand their terms and only practice those activities that they
approve of.  And if anyone turns the tables and points the mirror back at
them, these cry out bloody murder and declare that anyone who questions
them must be enemies of the environment.

Of course, on the other hand, I can understand why they would want to say
and write GSF rather than Great Spangled Fritillary, or GBS rather than
Golden Banded Skipper. I don't say those common names either - they are too
long. It is much easier for me to just say and write cybele or cellus. But
that, is obviously either too difficult for them to say or understand - in
spite of the fact that many of them are lawyers, doctors, and college
grads.
Ron



 
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From jrlyons at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul  4 16:44:15 2001
From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 15:44:15 -0500
Subject: one way street
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B43801F.AA815985@bellsouth.net>

 Rock and rollLLLL, RON!

Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> A week ago I got back about midnight from 12 hours of driving (total round
> trip) and 9 hours of doing Leps survey work for the Forest Service. It had
> been nearly 40 hours since I had had any sleep. Tired but wired, I decided
> to post a mere 9 species list on the carolina leps group. Knowing that most
> of the folks there like to use common names (something that I am just not
> in the habit of doing after 40 + years of working with butterflies) I dug
> out a book and furnished 5 of the nine with common names (one does not have
> a common name).  Well I got this nicely worded, but still terse,
> intolerant, and condescending post the next day asking me to please use
> common names with the scientific ones.  I wrote the person back that I try
> to do this as much as possible to be considerate of those not familiar with
> the correct (scientific) names. I told them I was a little perplexed by
> their post as I HAD furnished common names for most of the species - and
> went to extra effort to do so.
>
> I bit my tongue on wanting to ask if they ever wrote the people who only
> post common names asking them to please use the scientific ones also for
> the benefit of those who may not be familiar with the common ones. I did
> tell the individual that one problem I do have with common names is that
> many of the ones I know and have used for 40 years have now been changed to
> whatever the new groups want to call them - especially those which were
> named after collectors. (It is not that they were named after a person, but
> after a collector that they don't like.)
>
> Over the last couple of days some posts have come in that list species by
> neither common or correct names. I have seen this several times before and
> today have just had all of it I can take. The last two from two differnet
> persons were:  "lots of SSS skippers.."  and  " a LBJ skipper that.."  Who
> is supposed to know what these are other than some snoby little dumbded
> down click that likes to slam those who dare to use correct names? If this
> isn't a one way street I don't know what is.
>
> God forbid that I should email one of these individuals or GROUPS and ever
> suggest they be considerate and provide a-common-names-unfamiliar old timer
> like me with names I know  - or that one of the many subscribers to these
> lists from a foreign country dare to ask what the heck an LBJ skipper is.
> The only LBJ they probably know is a dead US president.
>
> This post is not about the use of common names or correct names. It is
> about a whole buss load of people who are just plain rude. They love to
> dish it out but can't take it. It is their way or the else. They are a
> majority and don't give a rats behind how others think (in scientific
> names), or what others like (collecting). They are subscribed to
> internationally open, public, chat groups and demand that everyone else use
> and understand their terms and only practice those activities that they
> approve of.  And if anyone turns the tables and points the mirror back at
> them, these cry out bloody murder and declare that anyone who questions
> them must be enemies of the environment.
>
> Of course, on the other hand, I can understand why they would want to say
> and write GSF rather than Great Spangled Fritillary, or GBS rather than
> Golden Banded Skipper. I don't say those common names either - they are too
> long. It is much easier for me to just say and write cybele or cellus. But
> that, is obviously either too difficult for them to say or understand - in
> spite of the fact that many of them are lawyers, doctors, and college
> grads.
> Ron
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl





 
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From be496 at lafn.org  Wed Jul  4 17:07:31 2001
From: be496 at lafn.org (Dameron, Wanda)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 14:07:31 -0700
Subject: US standardized name reference
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B438593.909C44FA@lafn.org>

Dear Ron,

Am assuming LBJ is use of the common acronym of "little brown job;" sss
is likely Silver-spotted Skipper found throughout the east;  next time
to make name conversions either way, suggest simplyfying your efforts by
using your keyboard 'control' and 'find' keys simultaneously on the
Standardized name list at: http://www.naba.org/pubs/enames.html

						Cheers, Wanda


Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> 
> A week ago I got back about midnight from 12 hours of driving (total round
> trip) and 9 hours of doing Leps survey work for the Forest Service. It had
> been nearly 40 hours since I had had any sleep. Tired but wired, I decided
> to post a mere 9 species list on the carolina leps group. Knowing that most
> of the folks there like to use common names (something that I am just not
> in the habit of doing after 40 + years of working with butterflies) I dug
> out a book and furnished 5 of the nine with common names (one does not have
> a common name).  Well I got this nicely worded, but still terse,
> intolerant, and condescending post the next day asking me to please use
> common names with the scientific ones.  I wrote the person back that I try
> to do this as much as possible to be considerate of those not familiar with
> the correct (scientific) names. I told them I was a little perplexed by
> their post as I HAD furnished common names for most of the species - and
> went to extra effort to do so.
> 
> I bit my tongue on wanting to ask if they ever wrote the people who only
> post common names asking them to please use the scientific ones also for
> the benefit of those who may not be familiar with the common ones. I did
> tell the individual that one problem I do have with common names is that
> many of the ones I know and have used for 40 years have now been changed to
> whatever the new groups want to call them - especially those which were
> named after collectors. (It is not that they were named after a person, but
> after a collector that they don't like.)
> 
> Over the last couple of days some posts have come in that list species by
> neither common or correct names. I have seen this several times before and
> today have just had all of it I can take. The last two from two differnet
> persons were:  "lots of SSS skippers.."  and  " a LBJ skipper that.."  Who
> is supposed to know what these are other than some snoby little dumbded
> down click that likes to slam those who dare to use correct names? If this
> isn't a one way street I don't know what is.
> 
> God forbid that I should email one of these individuals or GROUPS and ever
> suggest they be considerate and provide a-common-names-unfamiliar old timer
> like me with names I know  - or that one of the many subscribers to these
> lists from a foreign country dare to ask what the heck an LBJ skipper is.
> The only LBJ they probably know is a dead US president.
> 
> This post is not about the use of common names or correct names. It is
> about a whole buss load of people who are just plain rude. They love to
> dish it out but can't take it. It is their way or the else. They are a
> majority and don't give a rats behind how others think (in scientific
> names), or what others like (collecting). They are subscribed to
> internationally open, public, chat groups and demand that everyone else use
> and understand their terms and only practice those activities that they
> approve of.  And if anyone turns the tables and points the mirror back at
> them, these cry out bloody murder and declare that anyone who questions
> them must be enemies of the environment.
> 
> Of course, on the other hand, I can understand why they would want to say
> and write GSF rather than Great Spangled Fritillary, or GBS rather than
> Golden Banded Skipper. I don't say those common names either - they are too
> long. It is much easier for me to just say and write cybele or cellus. But
> that, is obviously either too difficult for them to say or understand - in
> spite of the fact that many of them are lawyers, doctors, and college
> grads.
> Ron
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> 

-- 
Wanda Dameron
Flutterby Press
LA-NABA, LepSoc, ATL, Lorquin, Xerces
23424 Jonathan St., Los Angeles, Ca. 91304
818-340-0365     be496 at lafn.org

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Wed Jul  4 17:21:29 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 17:21:29 -0400
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
References: <my-0307011122490001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>, <3B4243F7.2770@mb.sympatico.ca>, <my-0407010923480001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3B4388D8.53BA@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

Oh wow, would you happen to know if they kept the specimen after the
imago eclosed?  That must have been a huge sphingid!!!

Peace,
Xi Wang

Mark Youles wrote:
> 
> In article <3B4243F7.2770 at mb.sympatico.ca>, gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
> > > It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
> > > 'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval 'shrinkage'
> > > and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce a
> > > further 'giant' larval stage.
> >
> > Are you saying that instead of pupating, the larva would progress to a
> > further instar?  In which case, just what would be the maximum number of
> > instars a larva could go through?
> 
> Yep that's right.  From what I remember the experiments were conducted on
> the Death-head Hawk's.  The results were that the larva proceeded into
> giant 7th instar.  They then attempted to reinject the larva at the end of
> this stage also, but the this time the larve did pupate.
> 
> This IS however all from recollection!
> 
> Mark

 
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From billcor at mail.mcn.org  Wed Jul  4 19:02:48 2001
From: billcor at mail.mcn.org (Bill Cornelius)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 16:02:48 -0700
Subject: Question - what stimulates larva to pupate?
References: <20010701114443.3301.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>, <my-0307011122490001@macg19-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3B43A098.9BAF8B40@mail.mcn.org>

I had an idea that a person could use this method to grow giant Lycaenid
caterpillars which we could release in theaters & sewers, see, & if it didn't
bring down the decadent capitalists, perhaps we could sell some to Hollywood for
$1000 a pop to cover R & D.
Bill

Mark Youles wrote:

> In article <20010701114443.3301.cpmta at c012.sfo.cp.net>,
> speedshark2000 at altavista.com wrote:
>
> > Hi this is Heliconius and i'm a grade 8 student.
> > i would just like to know when does a caterpillar know it's time to make a
> > chrysalis, or what stimulates it to do so.
> > i would greatly appreciate it if you could email me your answers before July
> > 4
>
> Without getting too compicated, the process is initiated in the insect
> brain, where neurosecretory cells release Prothoracicotropic hormone
> (PTTH) in responce to neural, hormonal or environmental stimuli.
>
> It is interesting to note that the injection of this hormone into the
> 'mature' larval stages of some hawks moths (just prior larval 'shrinkage'
> and pupation) have been shown to delay the pupation process and induce a
> further 'giant' larval stage.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Mark


 
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From Mike.Quinn at tpwd.state.tx.us  Wed Jul  4 21:36:35 2001
From: Mike.Quinn at tpwd.state.tx.us (Mike Quinn)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:36:35 -0500 
Subject: FW: AUDUBON NAMES SAN ANTONIO 'HABITAT HEROES'
Message-ID: <22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD19E06@tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us>

"Environmentalist organizations typically portray all insecticides as
very dangerous.  Their agenda is to instill fear and worry."

One could just as easily claim that pesticide salesmen wantonly prey upon
people's arthropod phobias... 

In reality, most governments, NGO's, schools and homeowners naturally want
to reduce biocide usage for both cost and for personal and environmental
health reasons. 

More than one million people in San Antonio rely on the Edwards Aquifer
<http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/> as their only water source. This area also
has one of the highest levels of subterranean biodiversity in the world. In
the article below, the National Audubon Society is thanking the people of
San Antonio for reducing their pesticide usage, not instilling fear and
worry. Mike Quinn

-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle Haggerty [mailto:mhaggerty at wfscgate.tamu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:08 AM

Media Contact: 
John Bianchi
212-979-3026
Susan Hughes 
210-822-4503/862-1150 

AUDUBON NAMES SAN ANTONIO 'HABITAT HEROES' 

Mayor Ed Garza, local community leaders cited as pioneers and models for new
national initiative 

San Antonio, TX, June 26th, 2001 - Today the National Audubon Society
presented the City of San Antonio, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, San
Antonio Water System, and Alamo Area Master Naturalists with "Habitat Hero"
awards for their commitment to native plants and reduced-pesticide
landscaping. The awards are part of a nationwide Audubon initiative called
Healthy Habitats: Backyards, Schoolyards and Beyond aimed at reducing
pesticide use and creating healthy habitats. Audubon chose San Antonio to be
one of three campaign launch cities because of residents' level of
commitment to and interest in innovative landscaping practices. 

"Audubon is proud to recognize the extraordinary work going on in San
Antonio," said Frank Gill, Audubon's Senior Vice President for Science. "We
believe the city's reduction of pesticide use and commitment to native
plants serve as a model for the rest of the country." 

Audubon launched its national campaign in response to startling new data on
bird mortality. In 2000, prompted by concern about the spread of West Nile
Virus, New York State asked counties to report dead birds to its wildlife
pathology laboratory. After receiving more than 80,000 birds, the lab
discovered that, while virus was a factor in some deaths, the leading cause
was pesticide poisoning, responsible for 48 percent of birds tested. 

"San Antonio is a beautiful place to live," said San Antonio Mayor Ed Garza.
"We believe that through the city's efforts to reduce pesticide use, it's
also a safer place." 

In addition to calling on organizations and businesses to reduce pesticide
use, Audubon is urging individuals to consider changing the way they care
for their lawns. Through introducing native plants and using alternatives to
pesticides, Americans can maintain an attractive, healthy yard that is safer
for children and wildlife. 

"We've seen that San Antonio residents are eager to use a reduced-pesticide
approach to their lawns. Oftentimes the only stumbling block is how to get
started," said Sherry Hess, President of Alamo Area Master Naturalists, a
volunteer group that works with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. "We
can give them some fantastic ideas about how to incorporate wildscaping into
their plans, thus reducing the need for pesticides and water, while
encouraging native wildlife." 

Audubon's national initiative Healthy Habitats: Backyards, Schoolyards and
Beyond is aimed at quantifiably reducing pesticide use nationwide by working
with neighborhoods and communities, engaging local businesses, and
supporting local and state legislation that reduces backyard pesticide use. 

"Working with other local groups to bring environmental issues to the fore
in San Antonio has been incredibly rewarding," said Susan Hughes, an officer
of Baxer Audubon and a member of the state and national Audubon boards.
"Through our quarterly San Antonio Environmental Network forums and annual
South Texas Farm & Range Forum, we hope to further increase the public's
awareness of the need to decrease pesticide use." 

Founded in 1905 and supported by 600,000 members in 510 chapters throughout
the Americas, the National Audubon Society conserves and restores natural
ecosystems, focusing on birds and other wildlife, and their habitats, for
the benefit of humanity and the earth's biological diversity. 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mike Quinn
Invertebrate Biologist
Wildlife Diversity Branch
Texas Parks & Wildlife
3000 I-35 South, Suite 100, Austin, Texas 78704
Phone, Fax: 512-912-7059, -7058 
mike.quinn at tpwd.state.tx.us
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/nature/nature.htm

 
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From stanlep at extremezone.com  Wed Jul  4 23:15:33 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:15:33 -0700
Subject: test2 only
Message-ID: <3B43DBD5.A201D8C5@extremezone.com>

test2

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From stanlep at extremezone.com  Wed Jul  4 23:39:51 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:39:51 -0700
Subject: test3 only 
Message-ID: <3B43E187.84BEDF6E@extremezone.com>

test3

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From stanlep at extremezone.com  Wed Jul  4 23:07:38 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:07:38 -0700
Subject: test1 only
Message-ID: <3B43D9FA.958AD83@extremezone.com>

test1

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul  5 00:44:28 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:44:28 -0400
Subject: US standardized name reference
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B438593.909C44FA@lafn.org>
Message-ID: <003901c1050d$2d250880$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dameron, Wanda" <be496 at lafn.org>
Subject: Re: US standardized name reference
> Dear Ron,
> Am assuming LBJ is use of the common acronym of "little brown job;" sss
> is likely Silver-spotted Skipper found throughout the east;  next time
> to make name conversions either way, suggest simplyfying your efforts by
> using your keyboard 'control' and 'find' keys simultaneously on the
> Standardized name list at: http://www.naba.org/pubs/enames.html
>

Dear Wanda,
     Your reply is typical and proves my point. I said this is not about
common or correct names.  It is about _people_ who live on a one way
street - the one with their name on it.   It is about throngs who _refuse_
to use correct names but at the same time  _insist_ that all others use
common names. And now, more and more, they are just using letters that they
expect everyone else to know.
    Even you don't _know_ what LBJ stood for, you just "assume". And you
are quite willing to just assume in order to protect and promote your
sacred cow. This is real good science, real good documentation of, and
relaying of, observed taxa to the world community.
    You are so full of yourself and condescending that you think I am so
far below you  that I didn't figure out for myself that SSS was probably
for Silver spotted Skipper.  I didn't post that post, or this, because poor
little Ronnie didn't know what something was.  My point is _ why_ should I
have to _figure out_ a taxon like this  when all the
people who _prefer_common names need to do is supply a correct name along
with it -  the exact thing that was_ demanded_ that I do in reverse.
    And if Silver-spotted Skipper is to much trouble to type or say, try
just "clarus".
    Sorry Wanda,  there is nothing standardized about "your" names. You
can't even keep them a year without changing them. There was nothing wrong
with (1833) Ogeechee Brown Hairstreak as a common name - somebody just
didn't like it. Which was their prerogative, and mine - I have chosen to
keep using it. That is what common names are all about - what ever us
common people want to call something.

    Every single known organism on the planet already has a correct name -
these are highly regulated under international rules called the ICZN, ICBN
etc. - a real - standardized system that has been in place for centuries.

RG


 
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From monarch at saber.net  Thu Jul  5 01:28:58 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 22:28:58 -0700
Subject: FW: AUDUBON NAMES SAN ANTONIO 'HABITAT HEROES'
References: <22D91ED6CCEED311BED1009027A8F72CD19E06@tpwd-mx1.tpwd.state.tx.us>
Message-ID: <3B43FB1A.5E46@saber.net>

Paul Cherubini wrote:

>> "Environmentalist organizations typically portray all insecticides as
>> very dangerous.  Their agenda is to instill fear and worry."

Mike Quinn responded:

> One could just as easily claim that pesticide salesmen want only prey upon
> people's arthropod phobias...
> In reality, most governments, NGO's, schools and homeowners 
> naturally want to reduce biocide usage for both cost and for
> personal and environmental health reasons.

Mike, this thread was about NABA's opposition to the aerial spraying
for mosquitoes over New York City.  Government public health officials ordered
this spraying and viewed its risks as "negligible".
By contrast,  NABA's website describes the risks of spraying
in the following very worrisome way:

"devastating to butterflies and other non-target species, and
 frightening and potentially harmful to many humans". 

Likewise NABA is agressively opposed to all commercial butterfly releases.
Federal and State agriculture departments, on the other hand, view the risks 
associated with the release of 9 common, widespread and migratory species as 
"negligible". By contrast, NABA's website describes the risk of release 
in the following very worrisome way:

"Releasing commercially-raised butterflies into the environment 
is an act of anti-environmental terror."

Paul Cherubini, Placerville, Calif.

P.S. Two days ago I saw the following 4 butterfly species using my
home lawn (in a residential subdivision) as a nectaring habitat:

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/crescent.jpg
http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acmon.jpg
http://www.saber.net/~monarch/2skip.jpg

 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Thu Jul  5 02:05:34 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 07:05:34 +0100
Subject: US standardized name reference
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B438593.909C44FA@lafn.org> <003901c1050d$2d250880$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B4403AE.4A74685E@anu.ie>

Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dameron, Wanda" <be496 at lafn.org>
> Subject: Re: US standardized name reference
> > Dear Ron,
> > Am assuming LBJ is use of the common acronym of "little brown job;" sss
> > is likely Silver-spotted Skipper found throughout the east;  next time
> > to make name conversions either way, suggest simplyfying your efforts by
> > using your keyboard 'control' and 'find' keys simultaneously on the
> > Standardized name list at: http://www.naba.org/pubs/enames.html
> >
> 

Thank you, Wanda, that's a great resource. 


> Dear Wanda,
>      Your reply is typical and proves my point. I said this is not about
> common or correct names.  It is about _people_ who live on a one way
> street - the one with their name on it.   It is about throngs who _refuse_
> to use correct names but at the same time  _insist_ that all others use
> common names. And now, more and more, they are just using letters that they
> expect everyone else to know.
>     Even you don't _know_ what LBJ stood for, you just "assume". And you
> are quite willing to just assume in order to protect and promote your
> sacred cow. This is real good science, real good documentation of, and
> relaying of, observed taxa to the world community.

much vitriol snipped

>     Sorry Wanda,  there is nothing standardized about "your" names. You
> can't even keep them a year without changing them. There was nothing wrong
> with (1833) Ogeechee Brown Hairstreak as a common name - somebody just
> didn't like it. Which was their prerogative, and mine - I have chosen to
> keep using it. That is what common names are all about - what ever us
> common people want to call something.
> 
>     Every single known organism on the planet already has a correct name -
> these are highly regulated under international rules called the ICZN, ICBN
> etc. - a real - standardized system that has been in place for centuries.
> 
> RG
> 
Ron, Wanda is a nice lady who was trying to help you. Can't you lighten
up? It's about butterflies. 
As for your notion that the "correct name" for an organism is the one
that the scientists give it, nonsense! Children and poets name things,
and if we don't like the scientists' names, they will fade away like
morning dew. 
Just go on using both sets of names, setting a good example to the
others, and ignore the whiners. That's a nice web page, although I think
Occuring needs another r in there. Right up top, too. Proof readers tend
to miss headline typos.

Me, I'm looking at a garden full of chickadees, and trying to remember
what I'm supposed to call them in Ireland. Coal tit, I think. They are
blithely unaware of any label I may care to attach to them, and so will
your butterflies be, as long as you haven't pinned them down. 
Blessed be all of you, scholars and saints, on this fine morning, and
may your bile flow sweetly into its proper channels, attend to your
digestion, and quit clogging this list. 
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul  5 03:45:28 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 03:45:28 -0400
Subject: US standardized name reference
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B438593.909C44FA@lafn.org> <003901c1050d$2d250880$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B4403AE.4A74685E@anu.ie>
Message-ID: <006001c10526$76434220$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anne Kilmer" <viceroy at anu.ie>

> Ron, Wanda is a nice lady who was trying to help you. Can't you lighten
> up? It's about butterflies.

Help me what?  I wasn't asking for any "help".  Wanda was just putting a
plug in for the naba site (which she has every right to do).

> Just go on using both sets of names, setting a good example to the
> others, and ignore the whiners.

That's just the point. I use both as often and as much as I know. But there
is a huge group that not only does not use "both" but _refuses_ to use
"both" and  _also_ gripes (via personal email) to high heaven if someone
else (me) doesn't use theirs, which just so happens to be common names,
100% of the time.

I post a post using correct names for 9 taxa and also dig out 5 of their
common names (which I personally seldom use) while I am dog tired from a 20
hr work day _just_ to be nice to those who prefer common names, and I get a
personal email kicking me in the teeth by asking me to please use [all]
_common_ names. This is not the exception, it is the rule. My other point
is this stupid initial stuff - that is what my 13 year  old does all day -
FYI, BTW, 3B, NGIT etc.

It is about butterflies, isn't it. Or is it?  If it was really about
butterflies people would be interested in what they "really" are and
wouldn't be _forbidding_ the use of their correct names except in boring
scientific journals.

You sure seem to care about the correct name when it comes to yours. Is it
Ann or Anne?  It is Anne, as you specifically pointed out to me when I
first got on this group and called you Ann because I wasn't paying
attention. But, I am forgetting that this is a one way street. *We* have to
use whatever people and butterfly names X prefers, but X has no reciprocal
obligation, or even common courtesy, to use those names that *we* prefer.
Heads you win, tails I loose.
RG



 
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Thu Jul  5 06:59:11 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 06:59:11 -0400
Subject: US standardized name reference
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B438593.909C44FA@lafn.org> <003901c1050d$2d250880$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B4403AE.4A74685E@anu.ie> <006001c10526$76434220$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c10541$870eed00$50890a3f@1swch01>

Ron:

I've known you for a long time, and I feel it proper to offer you advice.
Don't cross Anne; she has you outgunned - and she can spell and parse.

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: <viceroy at gate.net>; "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: US standardized name reference


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anne Kilmer" <viceroy at anu.ie>
>
> > Ron, Wanda is a nice lady who was trying to help you. Can't you lighten
> > up? It's about butterflies.
>
> Help me what?  I wasn't asking for any "help".  Wanda was just putting a
> plug in for the naba site (which she has every right to do).
>
> > Just go on using both sets of names, setting a good example to the
> > others, and ignore the whiners.
>
> That's just the point. I use both as often and as much as I know. But
there
> is a huge group that not only does not use "both" but _refuses_ to use
> "both" and  _also_ gripes (via personal email) to high heaven if someone
> else (me) doesn't use theirs, which just so happens to be common names,
> 100% of the time.
>
> I post a post using correct names for 9 taxa and also dig out 5 of their
> common names (which I personally seldom use) while I am dog tired from a
20
> hr work day _just_ to be nice to those who prefer common names, and I get
a
> personal email kicking me in the teeth by asking me to please use [all]
> _common_ names. This is not the exception, it is the rule. My other point
> is this stupid initial stuff - that is what my 13 year  old does all day -
> FYI, BTW, 3B, NGIT etc.
>
> It is about butterflies, isn't it. Or is it?  If it was really about
> butterflies people would be interested in what they "really" are and
> wouldn't be _forbidding_ the use of their correct names except in boring
> scientific journals.
>
> You sure seem to care about the correct name when it comes to yours. Is it
> Ann or Anne?  It is Anne, as you specifically pointed out to me when I
> first got on this group and called you Ann because I wasn't paying
> attention. But, I am forgetting that this is a one way street. *We* have
to
> use whatever people and butterfly names X prefers, but X has no reciprocal
> obligation, or even common courtesy, to use those names that *we* prefer.
> Heads you win, tails I loose.
> RG
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
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From zagatti at versailles.inra.fr  Thu Jul  5 06:29:40 2001
From: zagatti at versailles.inra.fr (Pierre Zagatti)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:29:40 +0200
Subject: Antillean Noctuids
Message-ID: <3B444194.2AA055F9@versailles.inra.fr>

Hello all,

The oldest lep database on the web is still on line.

We just added the Noctuidae Ophiderinae to our Catalogue of the
Lepidoptera of the French Antilles (67 species) - a lot of work but the
noctuids will be finished soon :

http://www.inra.fr/Internet/Produits/PAPILLON/noctuid/noctuide.htm#Ophiderinae

I am currently working on the plates for identificaton, and I have still
to change the oldest indexed gifs into nice real color jpegs.

For those who bookmarked our site some years ago, the slight change in
the URL resulted in error messages without any alias or redirection :
www.jouy.inra.fr/... is now www.inra.fr/...

and the catalogue is :

http://www.inra.fr/Internet/Produits/PAPILLON/index.htm      - in French
http://www.inra.fr/Internet/Produits/PAPILLON/indexeng.htm   - in
English

Now I'll follow the sun for three weeks...


Pierre Zagatti

Versailles 
France

 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Thu Jul  5 08:34:39 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:34:39 -0400 
Subject: FW: US standardized name reference
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE53789B5@NTFS2>



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Grkovich, Alex 
> Sent:	Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:32 AM
> To:	'viceroy at gate.net'
> Subject:	RE: US standardized name reference
> 
> As far as "Common Names" are concerned, recently we heard about the
> "decree" from New York City to refer to all subspecies and hybrids within
> the Limenitis arthemis species complex as "Red Spotted Admirals". And here
> in New England, a couple of individuals have already started to report
> sightings of, presumably, Red Spotted Purples and perhaps hybrids with
> partial white bands, as "Red Spotted Admirals". Not only is this
> taxonomically quite incorrect (and unprecedented), but imagine the
> worthless data that will be available to a potential researcher in the
> future, who may be aspiring to determine the ranges and/or occurrences of
> the various taxa in, say, southern New England (where subsp. arthemis and
> astyannax as well as many hybrids are found). How will a meaningful
> scientific paper  ever be written, when all the researcher will find is
> recordings of "Red Spotted Admirals"? And I invite someone who is involved
> in these shenanigans to explain to me in rational terms how he or she will
> justify calling the Arizona Red Spotted Purple a "Red Spotted Admiral"?
> Where on earth is the study of Lepidoptera going? I guess the science of
> Lepidoptera study is no longer significant? 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Anne Kilmer [SMTP:viceroy at anu.ie]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 05, 2001 2:06 AM
> To:	Ron Gatrelle
> Cc:	Dameron, Wanda; Leps-l
> Subject:	Re: US standardized name reference
> 
> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dameron, Wanda" <be496 at lafn.org>
> > Subject: Re: US standardized name reference
> > > Dear Ron,
> > > Am assuming LBJ is use of the common acronym of "little brown job;"
> sss
> > > is likely Silver-spotted Skipper found throughout the east;  next time
> > > to make name conversions either way, suggest simplyfying your efforts
> by
> > > using your keyboard 'control' and 'find' keys simultaneously on the
> > > Standardized name list at: http://www.naba.org/pubs/enames.html
> > >
> > 
> 
> Thank you, Wanda, that's a great resource. 
> 
> 
> > Dear Wanda,
> >      Your reply is typical and proves my point. I said this is not about
> > common or correct names.  It is about _people_ who live on a one way
> > street - the one with their name on it.   It is about throngs who
> _refuse_
> > to use correct names but at the same time  _insist_ that all others use
> > common names. And now, more and more, they are just using letters that
> they
> > expect everyone else to know.
> >     Even you don't _know_ what LBJ stood for, you just "assume". And you
> > are quite willing to just assume in order to protect and promote your
> > sacred cow. This is real good science, real good documentation of, and
> > relaying of, observed taxa to the world community.
> 
> much vitriol snipped
> 
> >     Sorry Wanda,  there is nothing standardized about "your" names. You
> > can't even keep them a year without changing them. There was nothing
> wrong
> > with (1833) Ogeechee Brown Hairstreak as a common name - somebody just
> > didn't like it. Which was their prerogative, and mine - I have chosen to
> > keep using it. That is what common names are all about - what ever us
> > common people want to call something.
> > 
> >     Every single known organism on the planet already has a correct name
> -
> > these are highly regulated under international rules called the ICZN,
> ICBN
> > etc. - a real - standardized system that has been in place for
> centuries.
> > 
> > RG
> > 
> Ron, Wanda is a nice lady who was trying to help you. Can't you lighten
> up? It's about butterflies. 
> As for your notion that the "correct name" for an organism is the one
> that the scientists give it, nonsense! Children and poets name things,
> and if we don't like the scientists' names, they will fade away like
> morning dew. 
> Just go on using both sets of names, setting a good example to the
> others, and ignore the whiners. That's a nice web page, although I think
> Occuring needs another r in there. Right up top, too. Proof readers tend
> to miss headline typos.
> 
> Me, I'm looking at a garden full of chickadees, and trying to remember
> what I'm supposed to call them in Ireland. Coal tit, I think. They are
> blithely unaware of any label I may care to attach to them, and so will
> your butterflies be, as long as you haven't pinned them down. 
> Blessed be all of you, scholars and saints, on this fine morning, and
> may your bile flow sweetly into its proper channels, attend to your
> digestion, and quit clogging this list. 
> Anne Kilmer
> Mayo, Ireland
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Thu Jul  5 08:55:01 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:55:01 -0400 
Subject: one way street
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE53789BA@NTFS2>

Comment near end:

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Joel Lyons [SMTP:jrlyons at bellsouth.net]
> Sent:	Wednesday, July 04, 2001 4:44 PM
> To:	Ron Gatrelle
> Cc:	Leps-l
> Subject:	Re: one way street
> 
>  Rock and rollLLLL, RON!
> 
> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> 
> > A week ago I got back about midnight from 12 hours of driving (total
> round
> > trip) and 9 hours of doing Leps survey work for the Forest Service. It
> had
> > been nearly 40 hours since I had had any sleep. Tired but wired, I
> decided
> > to post a mere 9 species list on the carolina leps group. Knowing that
> most
> > of the folks there like to use common names (something that I am just
> not
> > in the habit of doing after 40 + years of working with butterflies) I
> dug
> > out a book and furnished 5 of the nine with common names (one does not
> have
> > a common name).  Well I got this nicely worded, but still terse,
> > intolerant, and condescending post the next day asking me to please use
> > common names with the scientific ones.  I wrote the person back that I
> try
> > to do this as much as possible to be considerate of those not familiar
> with
> > the correct (scientific) names. I told them I was a little perplexed by
> > their post as I HAD furnished common names for most of the species - and
> > went to extra effort to do so.
> >
> > I bit my tongue on wanting to ask if they ever wrote the people who only
> > post common names asking them to please use the scientific ones also for
> > the benefit of those who may not be familiar with the common ones. I did
> > tell the individual that one problem I do have with common names is that
> > many of the ones I know and have used for 40 years have now been changed
> to
> > whatever the new groups want to call them - especially those which were
> > named after collectors. (It is not that they were named after a person,
> but
> > after a collector that they don't like.)
> >
> > Over the last couple of days some posts have come in that list species
> by
> > neither common or correct names. I have seen this several times before
> and
> > today have just had all of it I can take. The last two from two
> differnet
> > persons were:  "lots of SSS skippers.."  and  " a LBJ skipper that.."
> Who
> > is supposed to know what these are other than some snoby little dumbded
> > down click that likes to slam those who dare to use correct names? If
> this
> > isn't a one way street I don't know what is.
> >
> > God forbid that I should email one of these individuals or GROUPS and
> ever
> > suggest they be considerate and provide a-common-names-unfamiliar old
> timer
> > like me with names I know  - or that one of the many subscribers to
> these
> > lists from a foreign country dare to ask what the heck an LBJ skipper
> is.
> > The only LBJ they probably know is a dead US president.
> >
> > This post is not about the use of common names or correct names. It is
> > about a whole buss load of people who are just plain rude. They love to
> > dish it out but can't take it. It is their way or the else. They are a
> > majority and don't give a rats behind how others think (in scientific
> > names), or what others like (collecting). They are subscribed to
> > internationally open, public, chat groups and demand that everyone else
> use
> > and understand their terms and only practice those activities that they
> > approve of.  And if anyone turns the tables and points the mirror back
> at
> > them, these cry out bloody murder and declare that anyone who questions
> > them must be enemies of the environment.
> >
> > Of course, on the other hand, I can understand why they would want to
> say
> > and write GSF rather than Great Spangled Fritillary, or GBS rather than
> > Golden Banded Skipper. I don't say those common names either - they are
> too
> > long. It is much easier for me to just say and write cybele or cellus.
> But
> > that, is obviously either too difficult for them to say or understand -
> in
> > spite of the fact that many of them are lawyers, doctors, and college
> > grads.  (But not scientists) > Ron
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  

 
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From jamin at pixelmanipulator.spam.com  Thu Jul  5 09:26:14 2001
From: jamin at pixelmanipulator.spam.com (piXelman@work)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:26:14 -0400
Subject: Can anyone tell me what this is?
Message-ID: <tk8qpnfs1mvi25@corp.supernews.com>

http://www.actionvideoproductions.com/BUG.jpg

Its about 6 or 7 inches total length.  Found in Greenville, SC.

thanks,
Ben





 
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From Leptraps at aol.com  Thu Jul  5 10:43:44 2001
From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:43:44 EDT
Subject: Great year for Catocala
Message-ID: <d3.1720d49c.2875d721@aol.com>

I began bait trapping this season here in central Kentucky in early May with 6 traps and as of 3 July, I have a total of 26 traps set out in Scott, Franklin, Woodford, Fayetter, and Jessamine counties. All the traps but two are flat bottm type and two are my lastest design yet to be named. I use bait traps with fermenting fruit primarily for moths, but anything that will visit fermenting fruit will also become entrapped, including butterflies. I use rotting meat (Frogs, Toads and a snake run through a blender or better known around my house as reptilian copped meat!) for Nymphalids, especially Polygonia species.  I check my traps daily and here is a short list of some of the species I have taken:

It has been a great year for Catocala!

C. ilia
C. ultronia
C. grynea
C. amica
C. crategae
C. piatrix
C. palaeogama
C. nebulosa
C. coccinata
C. mycronympha
C. judith
C. epione
C. dejecta
C. retecta
C. electa
C. innubens
C. habulis
C. obscura
C. insolabilis
C. maestosa
C. subnata
C. neogama
C. cerogama
C. amatrix
C. illecta
C. Clintoni
C. connubialis

Butterflies to date:

Basilarchia archippus
B. arthemus astyanax
Vanessa atalanta
Polygonia interrogantionis
P. comma
Nymphalis antiopa
Phyciodes tharos
Astreocampa celtis
A. clyton
E. anthedon
E. portlandia(?) It is not E. p. missarkae which occurs in the western part of the state.
Megisto cymela
Hermeuptycia sosybius
Cyllopsis gemma
Cercyonis pegala alope (F. carolina?) I have found both forms in the same trap. Here&#8217;s a good 
             one for Ron Gatrelle to  work on, eastern C. pegala. Talk about subspecies!!!
Cercyonis pegala nephele

The most interesting take was Atilides halesus. I set out a trap near the Keeneland Race Track in Lexington, Fayette County among some pecan trees looking for C. aggripina. I trapped a total of 6 males and 3 females of Atlides halesus in three days in one trap. The trap was hung over thirty feet above the ground. I have taken this species in traps in Georgia and Florida, but only as single specimens. I noticed during the winter that mistletoe was abundant in the tree in the area. 

So far, this has been a great year for Lepidoptera here in Kentucky.  

The original adult flight Megisto cymela was mid May here in Kentucky, I saw the last individual in early June. However, there is another flight beginning June 30. Although not as common, I have taken over a dozen individuals. The genitalia are identical. Evidently it is a second brood, OR, a second population of the same species that emerges at a different time. I have four females that I have oviposited over 50 eggs. We shall see next year. 

Cheers,

Leroy C. Koehn
Georgetown, KY


 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Thu Jul  5 13:25:29 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:25:29 -0500
Subject: Moth I.D.
In-Reply-To: <6630e959.0107040429.68da3f4d@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010705122117.0299ca00@pop3.norton.antivirus>

This sounds like the legendary *Leptidea virginiensis* Nabokov!
    The only indication of this species that I am aware of was an original 
watercolor illustration, by Nabokov. It was sent to Harry Clench.
    Nabokov had a very subtle sense of humour.
..................Chris Durden

At 05:29 AM 7/4/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Last weekend I was on a collecting trip in Eastern Pennsylvania. A
>number of Noctuidae, Pyralidae, and geometridae were found. However I
>came across a moth I have never seen before.
>
>It was a small white moth about 20 to 25cm in wing span. At rest the
>wings were at 90deg to the wall that it was on. Much as a butterfly
>would be at rest. Because it was about 2200 hours EDST the possibly of
>it being a butterfly was unlikely. The FW and HW were rounded. With no
>other markings, ie: black or brown dots.
>
>I will be going back to the same place this weekend, and with any luck
>be able to get a better I.D. Can anyone help me on the I.D.
>
>Chuck
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>



 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Thu Jul  5 13:41:43 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:41:43 -0500
Subject: one way street
In-Reply-To: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010705123514.029a0080@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Ron.
    Very well put. No-one has to put up with this kind of self defeating 
nonsense.
My present solution (on the Texas List, which is picky too) : I give 
scientific name, traditional common name (if there is one), then (in 
parentheses) the NABA name of the moment (if there is one). With all three 
laid out there is a possibility that some traditional knowledge may be 
picked up by accident by the NABA-only folks.
...................Chris Durden

At 04:33 PM 7/4/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>A week ago I got back about midnight from 12 hours of driving (total round
>trip) and 9 hours of doing Leps survey work for the Forest Service. It had
>been nearly 40 hours since I had had any sleep. Tired but wired, I decided
>to post a mere 9 species list on the carolina leps group. Knowing that most
>of the folks there like to use common names (something that I am just not
>in the habit of doing after 40 + years of working with butterflies) I dug
>out a book and furnished 5 of the nine with common names (one does not have
>a common name).  Well I got this nicely worded, but still terse,
>intolerant, and condescending post the next day asking me to please use
>common names with the scientific ones.  I wrote the person back that I try
>to do this as much as possible to be considerate of those not familiar with
>the correct (scientific) names. I told them I was a little perplexed by
>their post as I HAD furnished common names for most of the species - and
>went to extra effort to do so.
>
>I bit my tongue on wanting to ask if they ever wrote the people who only
>post common names asking them to please use the scientific ones also for
>the benefit of those who may not be familiar with the common ones. I did
>tell the individual that one problem I do have with common names is that
>many of the ones I know and have used for 40 years have now been changed to
>whatever the new groups want to call them - especially those which were
>named after collectors. (It is not that they were named after a person, but
>after a collector that they don't like.)
>
>Over the last couple of days some posts have come in that list species by
>neither common or correct names. I have seen this several times before and
>today have just had all of it I can take. The last two from two differnet
>persons were:  "lots of SSS skippers.."  and  " a LBJ skipper that.."  Who
>is supposed to know what these are other than some snoby little dumbded
>down click that likes to slam those who dare to use correct names? If this
>isn't a one way street I don't know what is.
>
>God forbid that I should email one of these individuals or GROUPS and ever
>suggest they be considerate and provide a-common-names-unfamiliar old timer
>like me with names I know  - or that one of the many subscribers to these
>lists from a foreign country dare to ask what the heck an LBJ skipper is.
>The only LBJ they probably know is a dead US president.
>
>This post is not about the use of common names or correct names. It is
>about a whole buss load of people who are just plain rude. They love to
>dish it out but can't take it. It is their way or the else. They are a
>majority and don't give a rats behind how others think (in scientific
>names), or what others like (collecting). They are subscribed to
>internationally open, public, chat groups and demand that everyone else use
>and understand their terms and only practice those activities that they
>approve of.  And if anyone turns the tables and points the mirror back at
>them, these cry out bloody murder and declare that anyone who questions
>them must be enemies of the environment.
>
>Of course, on the other hand, I can understand why they would want to say
>and write GSF rather than Great Spangled Fritillary, or GBS rather than
>Golden Banded Skipper. I don't say those common names either - they are too
>long. It is much easier for me to just say and write cybele or cellus. But
>that, is obviously either too difficult for them to say or understand - in
>spite of the fact that many of them are lawyers, doctors, and college
>grads.
>Ron
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>



 
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From covell at louisville.edu  Thu Jul  5 13:47:48 2001
From: covell at louisville.edu (Charles V. Covell)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 13:47:48 -0400
Subject: subscribe
Message-ID: <sb447015.074@gwise.louisville.edu>

Subscribe covell at louisville.edu

 
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From covell at louisville.edu  Thu Jul  5 15:33:18 2001
From: covell at louisville.edu (Charles V. Covell)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:33:18 -0400
Subject: I'm baaaaaack!
Message-ID: <sb4488cf.076@gwise.louisville.edu>

After over a year off Leps-L, I am resubscribing.  Hi, y'all.  Cheers, Charlie

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From dyanega at pop.ucr.edu  Thu Jul  5 16:13:27 2001
From: dyanega at pop.ucr.edu (Doug Yanega)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:13:27 -0700
Subject: Can anyone tell me what this is?
In-Reply-To: <tk8qpnfs1mvi25@corp.supernews.com>
References: <tk8qpnfs1mvi25@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <f0510031cb76a7a630c6d@[138.23.134.119]>

>http://www.actionvideoproductions.com/BUG.jpg
>
>Its about 6 or 7 inches total length.  Found in Greenville, SC.

It's a male dobsonfly, Corydalus cornutus. Fierce-looking, but 
harmless. The larvae are aquatic predators, called "hellgrammites".
-- 

Doug Yanega        Dept. of Entomology         Entomology Research Museum
Univ. of California - Riverside, Riverside, CA 92521
phone: (909) 787-4315 (standard disclaimer: opinions are mine, not UCR's)
            http://entmuseum9.ucr.edu/staff/yanega.html
   "There are some enterprises in which a careful disorderliness
         is the true method" - Herman Melville, Moby Dick, Chap. 82

 
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From jamin at pixelmanipulator.spam.com  Thu Jul  5 15:51:28 2001
From: jamin at pixelmanipulator.spam.com (piXelman@work)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:51:28 -0400
Subject: Can anyone tell me what this is?
References: <tk8qpnfs1mvi25@corp.supernews.com>
Message-ID: <tk9hc2ser1p50d@corp.supernews.com>

thanks to Doug, who told me this was a Dobson Fly (Corydalus cornutus):

http://www.unl.edu/agnicpls/dobsonfly.html




"piXelman at work" <jamin at pixelmanipulator.spam.com> wrote in message
news:tk8qpnfs1mvi25 at corp.supernews.com...
> http://www.actionvideoproductions.com/BUG.jpg
>
> Its about 6 or 7 inches total length.  Found in Greenville, SC.
>
> thanks,
> Ben
>
>
>
>



 
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From stanlep at extremezone.com  Thu Jul  5 21:51:49 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 18:51:49 -0700
Subject: US standardized name reference
References: <000901c104c8$9401c9c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B438593.909C44FA@lafn.org> <003901c1050d$2d250880$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B4403AE.4A74685E@anu.ie>
Message-ID: <3B4519B5.8DB65464@extremezone.com>

It was written:
> Ron, Wanda is a nice lady who was trying to help you. Can't you lighten
> up? 
 
but then then this statement followed:
> Blessed be all of you, scholars and saints, on this fine morning, and
> may your bile flow sweetly into its proper channels, attend to your
> digestion, and quit clogging this list.

Albeit, Ron may have gotten a bit heavy and I am sure Wanda is a nice
lady, but there seems to be a bit of a contradiction between the
question, and this subsequent statement. 

As for:
> and if we don't like the scientists' names, they will fade away like
> morning dew.

They may fade away in the minds of 'we', which I take to mean the
proponents of common names, but they will hardly fade away in science
simply because someone whimsically does not like them.  If they change
at all, it will be the result of advances in science, i.e., taxonomy,
genetics, systematics, species concepts (PhyloCode), etc.  

I was myself perplexed by the ambiguity of the abbreviation LBJ, "little
brown job", and how anyone could defend this naming convention. 
However, I do agree with the one statement:
>Just go on using both sets of names, setting a good example to the
>others, and ignore the (vitriol snipped). 
This is a hobby to some for enjoyment, and it should remain an
enjoyment.

Finally, I really don't see the point of butterflies not caring what we
call them. I should hope so.  It would certainly slow things down if
butterflies had to be personally consulted before we assigned a name to
them!  (-: 

Stan

 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Thu Jul  5 22:15:18 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:15:18 -0400
Subject: Fw: East Haddam, CT Summer Butterfly Count, 7/04
Message-ID: <009601c105c1$81238420$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

Hi All -

    The weather was pretty poor for the East Haddam, CT Summer Butterfly Count on July 4th, but I had such an outstanding group of volunteers show up at Haddam Meadows State Park that we decided to soldier on, anyway.   The skies were overcast for most of the day, early morning showers kept the vegetation wet, and the butterflies were reluctant to show themselves.  Afternoon conditions improved, with glimpses of sunshine, but choice locations had already been covered, with others yet to visit.   Hey, they can't all be sunny and calm days, right?

    Anyway, by the end of the day, 42 species (ties 2nd highest species total) and 1278 individuals (second highest ever) were seen.   No new species were added to the list.  There have been 13 previous counts with good data and competent participant skills (I have omitted a few years when we were pretty shaky)

Key to this listing:
species name (# of years species has been recorded) - 2001 total - notes of interest [current / old record high]

Black Swallowtail (10) - 1 
E. Tiger Swallowtail (13) - 15
Spicebush Swallowtail(11) - 11 - second highest total [12]
Cabbage White(12) - 13 low
Clouded Sulphur(12) - 53 
Orange Sulphur (12) - 41 
American Copper (11) - 77 
Bog Copper (12) - 75 - third highest [238]
Coral Hairstreak (9) - 10 - New High
Edward's H. (6) - 10 - New High
Banded H. (4) - 3 
Striped H. (7) - 9 - New High
Eastern Tailed-Blue (13) - 57 
Summer Azure (7) - 2 
Variegated Fritillary (4) - 1 
Great-Spangled F. (13) - 198 - New High [109]
Meadow F. (4) - 7  -New High
Pearl Crescent (11) - 6
Baltimore Checkerspot (5) - 1
Question Mark (6) - 6 - New High
Eastern Comma (6) - 2
American Lady (12) - 19 - second highest [20]
Red Admiral (12) - 42 - New High [23]
Red-spotted Purple (5) - 4
Northern Pearly-Eye (3) - 1
Appalachian Brown (11) - 19 - New High [10]
Little Wood Satyr (12) - 157 - New HIGH [44!]
Common Wood-Nymph (5) - 168 - New HIGH [31!]
Monarch (12) - 3 - LOW
Silver-Spotted Skipper (13) - 33
Hoary Edge (7) - 5
Southern Cloudywing (8) - 20
Least Skipper (10) - 29 - third highest [39]
European Sk. (11) - 5
Peck's Sk. (6) - 2
Crossline Sk. (8) - 6 - New High
Northern Broken-Dash (7) - 8
Little Glassywing (11) - 47 - New High [33]
Delaware Sk. (10) - 90 - New High [61]
Mulberry Wing (5) - 1
Black Dash (4) - 2
Dun Skipper (9) - 18

    As you can see, the woodland species were pretty good (especially Satyr and Wood-Nymph), skippers were decent, and late-lingering species were not easy.   Notable misses were Mourning Cloak (seen the day before and the day after), Viceroy, and Long Dash.

Can't wait for '02!

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at worldnet.att.net

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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Thu Jul  5 22:24:05 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:24:05 -0400
Subject: East Haddam, CT SBC, 7/04
Message-ID: <00af01c105c2$bb42dc40$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

Hi All -

    The weather was pretty poor for butterflying on July 4th, but I had such an outstanding group of volunteers show up at Haddam Meadows State Park that we decided to soldier on, anyway.   The skies were overcast for most of the day, early morning showers kept the vegetation wet, and the butterflies were reluctant to show themselves.  Afternoon conditions improved, with glimpses of sunshine, but choice locations had already been covered, with others yet to visit.   Hey, they can't all be sunny and calm days, right?

    Anyway, by the end of the day, 42 species (ties 2nd highest species total) and 1278 individuals (second highest ever) were seen.   No new species were added to the list.  There have been 13 previous counts with good data and competent participant skills (I have omitted a few years when we were pretty shaky)

Key to this listing:
species name (# of years species has been recorded) - 2001 total - notes of interest [current / old record high]

Black Swallowtail (10) -1 
E. Tiger Swallowtail (13) - 15
Spicebush Swallowtail(11) - 11 -second highest total [12]
Cabbage White(12) - 13 - low
Clouded Sulphur(12) - 53 
Orange Sulphur (12) - 41 
American Copper (11) - 77 
Bog Copper (12) - 75 - third highest [238]
Coral Hairstreak (9) - 10 - New High
Edward's H. (6) - 10 - New High
Banded H. (4) - 3 
Striped H. (7) - 9 - New High
Eastern Tailed-Blue (13) - 57 
Summer Azure (7) - 2 
Variegated Fritillary (4) - 1 
Great-Spangled F. (13) - 198 - New High [109]
Meadow F. (4) - 7 - New High
Pearl Crescent (11) - 6
Baltimore Checkerspot (5) - 1
Question Mark (6) - 6 - New High
Eastern Comma (6) - 2
American Lady (12) - 19 - second highest [20]
Red Admiral (12) - 42 - New High [23]
Red-spotted Purple (5) - 4
Northern Pearly-Eye (3) - 1
Appalachian Brown (11) - 19 - New High [10]
Little Wood Satyr (12) - 157 - New HIGH [44!]
Common Wood-Nymph (5) - 168 - New HIGH [31!]
Monarch (12) - 3 - LOW [ 62]
Silver-Spotted Skipper (13) - 33
Hoary Edge (7) - 5
Southern Cloudywing (8) - 20
Least Skipper (10) - 29 - third highest [39]
European Sk. (11) - 5
Peck's Sk. (6) - 2
Crossline Sk. (8) - 6 - New High
Northern Broken-Dash (7) - 8
Little Glassywing (11) - 47 - New High [33]
Delaware Sk. (10) - 90 - New High [61]
Mulberry Wing (5) - 1
Black Dash (4) - 2
Dun Skipper (9) - 18

    In summary, the woods species did well (especially Satyr and Wood-Nymph), skipper numbers were fair to good, and late-lingering species were few.   Notable misses of species recorded on at least 6 previous counts were Mourning Cloak (seen 7/03 and 7/05), Viceroy, and Long Dash.

Can't wait for 2002!

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at worldnet.att.net

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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul  6 00:05:07 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:05:07 -0400
Subject: asterius or asterias?
Message-ID: <3B4538F2.59DA@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

In Butterflies of Canada by Layberry et al., under the species
description for the Black Swallowtail, the authors state that ssp.
asteriUs occurs in Canada.  However, in the plates (Plate 4 to be
exact), the spelling of the the ssp. is asteriAs.  So, which is the
correct spelling?

TIA,
Xi Wang

 
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From nhumphre at PFC.Forestry.CA  Fri Jul  6 11:45:12 2001
From: nhumphre at PFC.Forestry.CA (Humphreys, Nick)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:45:12 -0700 
Subject: Photographic Images of Nun Moth
Message-ID: <E3725E2B7548D51192090002A534A18A05FA2A@s2-vic-r1.PFC.Forestry.CA>

Good Day:

I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Nick
Humphreys and I am a forest technician with the Canadian Forest Service
working at the Pacific Forestry Centre in Victoria, British Columbia.  One
of my projects is the monitoring of exotic pest that my enter Canada.  I
also write publications dealing with these pests which have included:
Anoplophora glabripennis, Ips typographus, Tomicus piniperda and
Callidiellum rufipenne.  

The nun moth, Lymantria monacha, is an exotic insect pest of much concern to
Canada and I have been asked to publish another advisory on this insect.
However, we have almost no pictures of the nun moth and I was hoping that
someone in this group could help me in getting access to any photos of this
pest. Or put me in touch with someone who could help. I have also been
trying to get in contact with a Broder Bejer and entomologist who used to be
with the University of Copenhagen.  Any leads to how I might accomplish this
would be appreciated. 

 We have found that photographic slides work best for reproduction purposes.
If you could send us slide material we could have it copied at our end and
send the originals/duplicates back to you very quickly.  You would be given
credit for any photos used in the publication as well as reimbursed for any
costs that you might incur.  I require pictures of all life stages and
damage.  If you would like copies of any of my previous exotic publications
please let me know and I would be happy to send them to you.  If you have
any further questions please feel free to contact me by email, fax or
telephone.  Thanks very much for your time.

Sincerely, Nick Humphreys



Forest health Technician
Pacific Forestry Centre
506 W. Burnside Rd.
Victoria, B.C.
V9E 1C8
PH:   250-363-0676
email: nhumphreys at pfc.forestry.ca
Fax:  250-363-6005

 
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From kevin.caley at nottingham.ac.uk  Fri Jul  6 12:00:35 2001
From: kevin.caley at nottingham.ac.uk (Kevin J Caley)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:00:35 +0100
Subject: terminology:  Was US standardized name reference
References: <003901c1050d$2d250880$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>, <3B4403AE.4A74685E@anu.ie>, <3B4519B5.8DB65464@extremezone.com>
Message-ID: <3B45E0A3.6ED2C0@nottingham.ac.uk>



"Stanley A. Gorodenski" wrote:

> I was myself perplexed by the ambiguity of the abbreviation LBJ, "little
> brown job", and how anyone could defend this naming convention.

My tuppence-worth :-
Preiously I've only seen LBJ used (very widely) among birders - basically any
'enigmatic' (=characterless, it seems!) bird that proves to be extremely
difficult to identify on first glance.  So, now it's entered the butterflying
world?  Could that be due to the huge numbers of birders who are getting
bored with birds now turning to the 'flying flowers', as is also happening in
the UK?  I have recently heard the phrases 'stonking' and 'griped' being
applied to butterfly viewing, which are also originally birding terms.

Interesting......

PS:  Scientific names will never go out of fashion, I think, as long as we
(humans) use more than one language to communicate with - very important when
communicating at conferences! (A Mourning Cloak.... What's that - looks like
a Camberwell Beauty to me......oh Nymphalis antiopa.  It's both, then.)

Kevin


 
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From ngd at ceh.ac.uk  Fri Jul  6 14:02:37 2001
From: ngd at ceh.ac.uk (Nick Greatorex-Davies)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 19:02:37 +0100
Subject: terminology: LBJs and BFTs
Message-ID: <sb460b6b.001@wpo.nerc.ac.uk>

Stanley A. Gorodenski wrote:

> I was myself perplexed by the ambiguity of the abbreviation LBJ, "little
> brown job", and how anyone could defend this naming convention.

In reply Kevin Caley wrote:

<snip>
Previously I've only seen LBJ used (very widely) among birders - basically any
'enigmatic' (=characterless, it seems!) bird that proves to be extremely
difficult to identify on first glance.  So, now it's entered the butterflying
world?  Could that be due to the huge numbers of birders who are getting
bored with birds now turning to the 'flying flowers', as is also happening in
the UK?  I have recently heard the phrases 'stonking' and 'griped' being
applied to butterfly viewing, which are also originally birding terms.
<snip>

I've heard the term LBJ many times over the years amongst moth-ers in the UK. A friend of mine, who is primarily a butterfly person (never was a birder), has his own term for moths (which he has been getting interested in enough in the last few years to do some moth trapping) - he calls them BFJs "Brown Flappy Things". I've tried pointing out to him that many moths are not brown and Noctuids and others buzz rather than flap, but to no avail. He still persists !

Nick Greatorex-Davies
CEH Monks Wood, Huntingdon, UK


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

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From covell at louisville.edu  Fri Jul  6 14:19:57 2001
From: covell at louisville.edu (Charles V. Covell)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:19:57 -0400
Subject: Field Guide to Moths
Message-ID: <sb45c92c.004@gwise.louisville.edu>

Dear Colleagues:  I am happy to inform you that the FIELD GUIDE TO EASTERN MOTHS is undergoing modest revision and will be republished within about a year's time by the Virginia Museum of Natural History.  I plan to revise taxonomic status, life history information, ranges, etc.; so I will welcome definite information of that sort that will help update the book.  Please email me at: covell at louisville.edu.  Thanks.  Cheers, Charlie

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From jhimmel at connix.com  Fri Jul  6 14:33:20 2001
From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:33:20 -0400
Subject: terminology: LBJs and BFTs
Message-ID: <002d01c1064a$23196d20$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel>

Another interesting bit of terminology I have heard that has been used to
describe difficult moths and skippers is, "@#!!#$%?!!!"

I believe it's used in the birding world as well.

John
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Visit my websites at:
http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
www.ctamphibians.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Greatorex-Davies <ngd at ceh.ac.uk>
To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Date: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: terminology: LBJs and BFTs


>Stanley A. Gorodenski wrote:
>
>> I was myself perplexed by the ambiguity of the abbreviation LBJ, "little
>> brown job", and how anyone could defend this naming convention.
>
>In reply Kevin Caley wrote:
>
><snip>
>Previously I've only seen LBJ used (very widely) among birders - basically
any
>'enigmatic' (=characterless, it seems!) bird that proves to be extremely
>difficult to identify on first glance.  So, now it's entered the
butterflying
>world?  Could that be due to the huge numbers of birders who are getting
>bored with birds now turning to the 'flying flowers', as is also happening
in
>the UK?  I have recently heard the phrases 'stonking' and 'griped' being
>applied to butterfly viewing, which are also originally birding terms.
><snip>
>
>I've heard the term LBJ many times over the years amongst moth-ers in the
UK. A friend of mine, who is primarily a butterfly person (never was a
birder), has his own term for moths (which he has been getting interested in
enough in the last few years to do some moth trapping) - he calls them BFJs
"Brown Flappy Things". I've tried pointing out to him that many moths are
not brown and Noctuids and others buzz rather than flap, but to no avail. He
still persists !
>
>Nick Greatorex-Davies
>CEH Monks Wood, Huntingdon, UK
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us  Fri Jul  6 15:36:18 2001
From: KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us (Kelly Richers)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:36:18 -0700
Subject: terminology: LBJs and BFTs
Message-ID: <sb45b0cf.055@209.165.33.133>

Interesting.  Like all good moth people, I have several drawers of unidentified moths, which I simply put into the drawers.  The drawers are labeled "UFO"'s. The material may change but the drawers never go away entirely.

>>> "JH" <jhimmel at CONNIX.COM> 07/06/01 11:33AM >>>
Another interesting bit of terminology I have heard that has been used to
describe difficult moths and skippers is, "@#!!#$%?!!!"

I believe it's used in the birding world as well.

John
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Visit my websites at:
http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
www.ctamphibians.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Greatorex-Davies <ngd at ceh.ac.uk>
To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Date: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: terminology: LBJs and BFTs


>Stanley A. Gorodenski wrote:
>
>> I was myself perplexed by the ambiguity of the abbreviation LBJ, "little
>> brown job", and how anyone could defend this naming convention.
>
>In reply Kevin Caley wrote:
>
><snip>
>Previously I've only seen LBJ used (very widely) among birders - basically
any
>'enigmatic' (=characterless, it seems!) bird that proves to be extremely
>difficult to identify on first glance.  So, now it's entered the
butterflying
>world?  Could that be due to the huge numbers of birders who are getting
>bored with birds now turning to the 'flying flowers', as is also happening
in
>the UK?  I have recently heard the phrases 'stonking' and 'griped' being
>applied to butterfly viewing, which are also originally birding terms.
><snip>
>
>I've heard the term LBJ many times over the years amongst moth-ers in the
UK. A friend of mine, who is primarily a butterfly person (never was a
birder), has his own term for moths (which he has been getting interested in
enough in the last few years to do some moth trapping) - he calls them BFJs
"Brown Flappy Things". I've tried pointing out to him that many moths are
not brown and Noctuids and others buzz rather than flap, but to no avail. He
still persists !
>
>Nick Greatorex-Davies
>CEH Monks Wood, Huntingdon, UK
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>



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From rjparcelles at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 15:56:36 2001
From: rjparcelles at yahoo.com (Bob Parcelles,Jr.)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nature Potpourri...A different kind of newsletter
Message-ID: <20010706195636.3508.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>


Greetings:-)

I have  just started a new listserve at Yahoo Groups. Basically
a Newsletter with one-way traffic. Select threads or topics
will
be put up for discussion (I can adjust the settings) for short
periods. Many of you have already joined so please excuse the
cross-posting. You can select individual email, digest or no
mail. All posts are archived.

Natural History, Biology, Ecology and Related Fields 
Environmental News and Activism 
Links to Environmental and Natural History Sites 
A Newsletter with Occaisional Group Discussions 
All Natural History Topics Are Explored... From Bacteria To
Bears 
Book Reviews 
Essays (from you)
Major Topics Are: Threatened Ecosystems, Endangered 
Species, Biodiversity and Speciation   
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And Much More!

CHECK IT OUT.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri

Owned, Editedand Moderated By Bob Parcelles, Jr. 
RJP Associates, Environmental Research, Planning, Education and
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To subscribe to this group, go to:
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=====
Bob Parcelles, Jr
Pinellas Park, FL
RJP Associates <rjpassociates at yahoo.com>
rjparcelles at yahoo.com
http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876
 "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
                       --William Shakespeare

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From MWalker at gensym.com  Fri Jul  6 20:14:09 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:14:09 -0400 
Subject: terminology: LBJs and BFTs
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279D6A@hqmail.gensym.com>

Kelly Richers wrote:
 

 
Interesting.  Like all good moth people, I have several drawers of
unidentified moths, which I simply put into the drawers.  The drawers are
labeled "UFO"'s. The material may change but the drawers never go away
entirely.


 
(On a slightly different note) 
 
I do my best in the field to identify and propagate species information (in
a universal, scientific context) to the faceless masses in etherland - with
the expectation, somewhat presumptuously, that someone out there cares or
can benefit from this information.  In my drawers, however, you'll find only
date and location data.  I figure that whatever these bugs actually are,
they won't become anything different over mine or my children's lifetimes.
Names become rather unimportant compared to the REAL data - which is the
existence of the specimen at the time and location indicated on the label.
I figure that in spite of what I call it, it deserves the scrutiny of
tomorrow's taxonomists - who will undoubtedly be equipped with a different
insight (be it more or less).
 
Shalom, 
 
Mark Walker.
Oceanside, CA
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From AMALACHITE at aol.com  Sat Jul  7 10:52:58 2001
From: AMALACHITE at aol.com (AMALACHITE at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:52:58 EDT
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <12e.1121122.28787c4a@aol.com>

 

 
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From birdcr at concentric.net  Sat Jul  7 13:23:05 2001
From: birdcr at concentric.net (Randy Emmitt)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 13:23:05 -0400
Subject: WV and VA leps 7-4, 7-5
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010707111459.022b5170@pop3.concentric.net>

Folks,

I had a blast driving in the WV mountains the past three days! Actually 
before I got there I was covered up in hairstreaks in VA on highway 33 just 
before the WV state line. I managed to get photos of at least 15 species, 
including 6 new species for my collection. The new ones were all lifers, 
they included Pink-edged Sulphur, Bog Copper (male and female), Atlantis 
Fritillary, Harris` Checkerspot (worn female with eggs), European Skipper 
and  Long Dash. Also I`m fairly certain I might have had a Indian Skipper 
perched on a rock at the top of Spruce Knob the photo will tell. And I had 
a odd flying male crescent, that could have been a Northern Crescent it was 
in perfect habitat for the species yet it seemed too small to be one, until 
I get the photos I`ll just call it a crescent species.

I had a lot of people help we with places to go including some long time 
experts that I`m sure would be more comfortable with Latin names so I`m 
using both names on my list. I`ll also be placing the photos on a web page 
at my www.rlephoto.com web site with a more elaborate report when the 
slides are back.

Noted these abbreviations  P for photograph and x2, x3 means 2 or 3 
different individuals photographed
.
Here`s the first list:
Rockingham County, VA first 7-4 a early morning check of the top half of 
highway 33 before entering WV then on 7-6 a shorter check between 5:30 and 6 pm

0       2       Pipevine Swallowtail, Battus philenor (fresh)
0       1       Eastern Tiger Swallowtail, Papilio glaucus (badly worn)
0       3       Cabbage White, Pieris rapae
0       4       Orange Sulphur, Colias eurytheme
27      60+     Banded Hairstreak, Satryium calanus  (Px3)(types)
3       3       Hickory Hairstreak, Satyrium caryaevorum (Px2, Px2 photos 
might confirm)
0       4       Striped Hairstreak, Satyrium liparops (P)(one worn the rest 
fresh)
1       0       Eastern Tailed-Blue, Everes comyntas
2       5       Great Spangled Fritillary, Speyeria cybele
1       1       American Lady, Vanessa virginiensis
0       5       Red Admiral, Vanessa atalanta
35      30      Silver-spotted Skipper, Epargyreus clarus
1       0       Horace's Duskywing, Erynnis horatius


Next Pendleton County WV on 7-4 along highway 33 and the forest road 112 up 
to Spruce Knob. Then Randolph County WV Spruce Knob Lake and forest road 1 
and creek road 29 back to Harmon on highway 33. The weather proved 
difficult most of the day with clouds and small showers. I hit one small 
field loaded with skippers  on creek road 29.

10      14      Pipevine Swallowtail, Battus philenor
1       0       Spicebush Swallowtail ,Papilio troilus
1       2       Eastern Tiger Swallowtail, Papilio glaucus (badly worn)
15      10      Cabbage White, Pieris rapae
7       3       Clouded Sulphur, Colias philodice
4       1       Orange Sulphur, Colias eurytheme
8       4       Pink-edged Sulphur, Colias interior (Px3, P)
8       4       Colias species (fly bys)
11      0       Banded Hairstreak, Satryium calanus
3       0       Hickory Hairstreak, Satyrium caryaevorum (Px2, photos might 
confirm)
4       2       Eastern Tailed-Blue, Everes comyntas
2       4       'Summer' Spring Azure, Celastrina ladon neglecta
9       6       Great Spangled Fritillary, Speyeria cybele
3       1       Aphrodite Fritillary, Speyeris aphrodite
5       2       Atlantis Fritillary Speyeria atlantis
12      3       Speyeria species (wouldn`t settle down)
2       0       Meadow Fritillary, Boloria bellona (P)
0       1       Harris' Checkerspot, Chlosyne harrisii (P) with eggs very worn
2       0       Eastern Comma, Polygonia comma
2       1       Mourning Cloak, Nymphalis antiopa (20 cats on top Spruce Knob)
1       0       American Lady, Vanessa virginiensis
6       6       Red Admiral, Vanessa atalanta
2       1       Red-spotted Purple, Limenitis arthemis astyanax
4       0       Common Wood-Nymph, Cercyonis pegala
60      15      Silver-spotted Skipper, Epargyreus clarus
1       0       Wild Indigo Duskywing, Erynnis baptisiae
125+    375+    European Skipper, Thymelicus lineola (Px6, Px3) everywhere!
1?      0       Indian Skipper, Hesperia sassacus (photo to confirm)
0       35      Peck's Skipper, Polites peckius (Px4) very fresh!
0       2       Tawny-edged Skipper, Polites themistocles
0       2       Crossline Skipper, Polites origenes (photos of mated pair)
20      45      Long Dash, Polites mystic (Px4, Px2)
6       3       Northern Broken-Dash, Wallengrenia egeremet
6       5       Little Glassywing, Pompeius verna
0       6       Hobomok Skipper, Poanes hobomok (Px3 both sexes)
0       8       Zabulon Skipper, Poanes zabulon
0       4       Dun Skipper, Euphyes vestris


On 7-5, I stayed in Elkins and started looking in a crown vetch 
patch  along  highway 55-28 along the river past Seneca Rocks. I checked a 
quarry near Smoke Hole Caverns then drove up towards Dolly Sods in Grant 
County, WV. Then did Dolly Sods in Tucker County and back in Grant County 
on forest road 75, then north on 42-93 I found a big patch of thistle 
loaded with Red Admirals.

Grant County WV then Tucker County WV (7-5)


11      1       Pipevine Swallowtail, Battus philenor
1       0       Zebra Swallowtail, Eurytides marcellus (quarry road)
1       0       Eastern Tiger Swallowtail, Papilio glaucus (badly worn)
16      6       Cabbage White, Pieris rapae
5       5       Clouded Sulphur, Colias philodice
3       2       Orange Sulphur, Colias eurytheme
0       11      Pink-edged Sulphur, Colias interior (Px2)
0       12      Colias species
2       0       Eastern Tailed-Blue, Everes comyntas
2       0       'Summer' Spring Azure, Celastrina ladon neglecta
17      4       Great Spangled Fritillary, Speyeria cybele
2       5       Atlantis Fritillary Speyeria atlantis (Px3)
4       0       Speyeria species (Px2 on milkweed)
7       0       Meadow Fritillary, Boloria bellona (Px2)
1?      0       Phyciodes  species (Crescent photos will tell)
3       0       Eastern Comma, Polygonia comma
4       0       American Lady, Vanessa virginiensis
41      10      Red Admiral, Vanessa atalanta (Px6 on thistle)
100     3       Silver-spotted Skipper, Epargyreus clarus
1       0       Thorybes  species (very worn, looked like Confused 
Cloudywing, but too worn for and ID)
4       0       Wild Indigo Duskywing, Erynnis baptisiae (Px2)
46      32      European Skipper, Thymelicus lineola  (-,Px1)
0       2       Peck's Skipper, Polites peckius
0       4       Long Dash, Polites mystic
11      0       Northern Broken-Dash, Wallengrenia egeremet (p)
13      2       Little Glassywing, Pompeius verna
0       1       Hobomok Skipper, Poanes hobomok
1       0       Dun Skipper, Euphyes vestris


7-6 Crainsville Swamp Preston County WV, I spent the morning in Oakdale and 
in front of my motel The Board Room I photographed 2 fawns eating in the 
empty lot. Then headed for Crainsville, got lost twice and arrived just 
after 9AM and ran into 2 butterfliers from MD James and Tori.  Satyed at 
the swamp till 12:30pm and then checked a large flat rock with seepage on 
the way out.

3       Cabbage White, Pieris rapae
4       Colias  species
7       Bog Copper Lycaena epixanthe (Px4 males and 1 female)
2       Great Spangled Fritillary, Speyeria cybele
4       Speyeria species (P on mtn laurel)
1       Question Mark Polygonia interrogationis
12      Red Admiral, Vanessa atalanta
25      European Skipper, Thymelicus lineola
1       Northern Broken-Dash, Wallengrenia egeremet
2       Dun Skipper, Euphyes vestris

I also managed photos of 2 new odes for my collection Cordulegaster 
bilineata, Brown Spiketail in Pendleton County, WV on the way to Spruce 
Knob and Leucorrhinia  intacta, Dot-tailed Whiteface at Crainsville in 
Preston County, WV on the board walk.

Thanks again to all that helped with this trip!



Randy Emmitt
Rougemont, NC












 
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From andre.verboven at chello.be  Sat Jul  7 13:24:46 2001
From: andre.verboven at chello.be (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Verboven?=)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:24:46 +0200
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <002301c10709$b824bcc0$d9d2a2c3@upc.chello.be>


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From davidb at brostoff.com  Sat Jul  7 22:12:13 2001
From: davidb at brostoff.com (David Brostoff)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:12:13 -0700
Subject: unsubscribe LEPS-L
Message-ID: <p04330101b76d71e12b9a@[216.15.37.2]>

unsubscribe LEPS-L

 
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From fabio_vitale at tin.it  Sun Jul  8 13:23:11 2001
From: fabio_vitale at tin.it (Fabio Vitale)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:23:11 +0200
Subject: From Italy
References: <55542081.0106170301.54af4987@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c107d2$de5dcb60$0aeaabd4@o5j4n6>

Dear Netters,

I need to know E-mail of the Curator of Lepidoptera collections of AMNH
Thank you.

Fabio Vitale


 
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From fmyers at attcanada.ca  Sun Jul  8 23:50:13 2001
From: fmyers at attcanada.ca (Fred Myers)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 23:50:13 -0400
Subject: Moth Identification Field Guide
Message-ID: <cS927.43719$TW.217666@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>

I am trying to find a field guide to aid in the identification of  moths in
my area. For that matter a book of moths of the world would suffice. I
reside in Ontario and have had no luck so far. The Peterson Field Guide of
Eastern Moths is no longer in print and a French version of the book is also
unattainable at the present time.



 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Mon Jul  9 01:19:33 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 22:19:33 -0700
Subject: Moth Identification Field Guide
References: <cS927.43719$TW.217666@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>
Message-ID: <3B493EE5.5181FE41@theriver.com>

Fred Myers wrote:
> 
> I am trying to find a field guide to aid in the identification of  moths in
> my area. For that matter a book of moths of the world would suffice. I
> reside in Ontario and have had no luck so far. The Peterson Field Guide of
> Eastern Moths is no longer in print and a French version of the book is also
> unattainable at the present time.
> 
> 
Try contacting one of the used book sources on the internet.  With
patience you can find almost any book that has ever been published. 
Bibliofind, alibris, and abebooks will get you started.  and if you are
patient, Charlie Covell is working on a new edition.
Cheers!

-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From jeff at primus.ca  Mon Jul  9 01:29:54 2001
From: jeff at primus.ca (Jeff Crolla/Martha Hancock)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 01:29:54 -0400
Subject: Moth Identification Field Guide
References: <cS927.43719$TW.217666@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>
Message-ID: <000b01c10838$30680a00$6f92fed8@default>

There are sometimes copies of the Peterson guide for auction at www.ebay.com
(and Charles Covell just posted a few days ago that it will be republished
again in about a year by the Virginia museum of Nat. Hist.). Louis
Handfield's Guide Des Papillons Du Quebec (1999) is in french and has
illustrations of all the macro (larger) moths that occur in Quebec, which
covers the great majority of those that occur in Ontario too. It is
published by Broquet and the softcover edition is about $50 CAN.
http://www.broquet.qc.ca/

Jeff Crolla
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Myers" <fmyers at attcanada.ca>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2001 11:50 PM
Subject: Moth Identification Field Guide


> I am trying to find a field guide to aid in the identification of  moths
in
> my area. For that matter a book of moths of the world would suffice. I
> reside in Ontario and have had no luck so far. The Peterson Field Guide of
> Eastern Moths is no longer in print and a French version of the book is
also
> unattainable at the present time.
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
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From moths at kfbg.org  Mon Jul  9 02:42:41 2001
From: moths at kfbg.org (Roger C. KENDRICK)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 14:42:41 +0800
Subject: Hainan Leps. / Prout
Message-ID: <3B495261.B23221AA@kfbg.org>

I would be most obliged if someone could provide the full reference for
Prout's work on Hainan Leps. "A Catalogue of the Lepidoptera of Hainan"
published in the Bulletin of the Hill Museum. I have the page numbers
(125-144), but neither the year (circa 1926?) nor the volume.

t.i.a.

Roger Kendrick

--
Roger C. KENDRICK
Senior Conservation Officer
Fauna Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm & Botanic Garden
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories
HONG KONG

moths at kfbg.org

www.kfbg.org
www.hkusub.hku.hk/~kendrick/hkmoth.htm



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Mon Jul  9 02:56:09 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 02:56:09 -0400
Subject: Moth book for eastern Canada
Message-ID: <000d01c10844$3c1cc000$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

The Handfield book mentioned by Jeff Crolla is what you want and all you
need. There is nothing else close to this for your area. I'm looking at my
copy to see how many species are dealt with - it looks like 1,460 species.
As I said you are not going to find anything to top this. I live in South
Carolina USA and find it very useful.

For those who may have missed Jeff's post it is titled. Le Guide Des
Papilions Du Quebec.  Yes, it is in French. But, as they say, a picture is
worth a thousand words.
Ron Gatrelle


 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Mon Jul  9 08:15:29 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:15:29 -0400 
Subject: Moth book for eastern Canada
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE53789DF@NTFS2>

And make sure you purchase the SCIENTIFIC VERSION ("VERSION SCIENTIFIQUE");
it includes specific localities for finding the various species described in
the book. It's a bargain at $89 (Canadian).

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Sent:	Monday, July 09, 2001 2:56 AM
> To:	fmyers at attcanada.ca; Leps-l
> Subject:	Moth book for eastern Canada
> 
> The Handfield book mentioned by Jeff Crolla is what you want and all you
> need. There is nothing else close to this for your area. I'm looking at my
> copy to see how many species are dealt with - it looks like 1,460 species.
> As I said you are not going to find anything to top this. I live in South
> Carolina USA and find it very useful.
> 
> For those who may have missed Jeff's post it is titled. Le Guide Des
> Papilions Du Quebec.  Yes, it is in French. But, as they say, a picture is
> worth a thousand words.
> Ron Gatrelle
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
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From jhimmel at connix.com  Mon Jul  9 08:45:13 2001
From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:45:13 -0400
Subject: Catocala
Message-ID: <000901c10875$0058cce0$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel>

The first catocala of the season came to the lights last night - C. epione.  This was offset by the first Gypsy Moth of the season, at least in my yard.  I was in Long Island, NY last week and they were flying all over the place, day and night.

John
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Visit my websites at:
http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
www.ctamphibians.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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From remove at cd64.com  Mon Jul  9 13:46:08 2001
From: remove at cd64.com (E-Xpress Compu)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:46:08 +0800
Subject: ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? !!
Message-ID: <200107091747.NAA11812@gr.its.yale.edu>

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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Mon Jul  9 13:56:10 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:56:10 -0600
Subject: Good light
Message-ID: <000201c108a1$15dc4ac0$7e62a58e@allez123>

I am sure it is no great revelation to say that examining leps in natural
light is far superior to seeing them under incandescent light bulbs.
However, when I am unsure of an id in the field I take a specimen home and
head for my library where I consult the muses and the tomes - in
incandescent light.  Suggestions please in how I should solve my lighting
problem.

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3




 
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From hif at iami.org  Mon Jul  9 16:42:14 2001
From: hif at iami.org (Housing Inspection Foundation)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:42:14 -0500
Subject: Housing Inspection Foundation 2001 National Conference Nov. 4-7 in Las Vegas, NV
Message-ID: <003101c108b7$b698a920$6501a8c0@ws3>

Dear Industry Professional,

On behalf of the Housing Inspection Foundation I would like to invite you to our 2001 National Conference. The Expo will be held November 4-7 at the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas, NV. This will give you an opportunity to update yourself on important topics in Today's Home Inspection Industry.

Make your plans to attend the 2001 National Conference of Home Inspectors. Call The Association headquarters at 320-763-6350 or register online @ www.iami.org/hif.cfm. Any other questions feel free to contact me direct.

Sincerely,
Housing Inspection Foundation
Michael Andreas
Associate Director

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From kbliss0568 at aol.com  Mon Jul  9 18:00:49 2001
From: kbliss0568 at aol.com (KBliss0568)
Date: 09 Jul 2001 22:00:49 GMT
Subject: mv light question
Message-ID: <20010709180049.23533.00003228@ng-mg1.aol.com>

Has anyone here tried running a mercury vapor (175 watt) off of
a power inverter connected to a car battery?  The battery will
be connected to a running vehicle, so I'm guessing that it won't
go dead, but that's just my uneducated guess.  

The inverter I was looking at purchasing is a 600 watt (continuous),
1200 watt (peak) inverter by a company named Statpower.

Does anyone know if this will work?  Sounds like it should, right?

Ken Bliss

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Mon Jul  9 20:55:24 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:55:24 -0400
Subject: Good light
In-Reply-To: cmbb@sk.sympatico.ca
        "Good light" (Jul  9, 11:56am)
References: <000201c108a1$15dc4ac0$7e62a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <1010709205558.ZM18830@Gochfeld>

cmbb asked about lights: 


The AmericanMuseum of Natural History bird department installed 
'special' fluorescents in booths on some of its bird ranges, to allow 
comparison in true color. I will forward the message to Wesley Lanyon 
(then head of the bird department) to see if he remembers how they were 
special. I'm sure they fit into a standard six foot fluorescent fixture. 

Ironically on both sides of the booths were 10 foot high windows which 
received the afternoon sun.  I was never sure why the fluorescents were 
supposed to be "truer" than daylight (or maybe it was for the short 
winter afternoons when the sunlight failed (people tended to work late 
in the bird department to avoid rush hour traffic (or because they liked 
birds). Maybe the windows got too grimy too quickly?

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From Leptraps at aol.com  Mon Jul  9 22:53:52 2001
From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:53:52 EDT
Subject: mv light question
Message-ID: <3d.e231b9b.287bc840@aol.com>

Ken:

At what AMP hour capacity is the inverter. If the AMP capacity of the 
inverter is greater than the ability of the charging system to maintain the 
battery, the battery will go dead. 

I would like to investigate this inverter. What information do you have and 
do the have a website?

Cheers,

Leroy C. Koehn
202 Redding Road
Georgetown, Kentucky
USA          40324-2622
Tele.: 502-570-9123
Cell: 502-803-5422
E-mail: Leptraps at aol.com

"Let's get among them"
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From davidb at brostoff.com  Mon Jul  9 23:03:27 2001
From: davidb at brostoff.com (David Brostoff)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:03:27 -0700
Subject: unsubscribe LEPS-L
Message-ID: <p04330102b77020f37972@[216.15.37.2]>

unsubscribe LEPS-L David Brostoff

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Tue Jul 10 00:45:53 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:45:53 -0400
Subject: correct names
Message-ID: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

In a couple of recent posts I used the phrase "correct name" in application
to what had previously only been referred to as scientific names on the
group.  This got a rise out of a few folks so I thought I'd post this.

The reason it got a rise is that the meaning of this phrase is very clear
in two directions. First, it points to itself (scientific names) as
correct, and by virtue of that, secondarily points to common names as
somehow incorrect - which is obviously why those who use (sometimes
exclusively) common names got their feathers ruffled.

I chose that term because it is both accurate and sets common vs.
scientific name usage in the proper context. Some of those who employ
(exclusively) the usage of common names for organisms have given the
_impression_ that the two name groupings - scientific and common - are
equal. In other words it is simply that one faction chooses to use
scientific and another common. It doesn't matter, one or the other as they
are equal. That is the impression.

The reality is that common and scientific names are not equal in any way
shape or form. At birth I was given my proper name - Ronald Richard
Gatrelle. Over the decades I have also been given various nick names - bug
man, spider, dear, daddy etc. Yet, I only have one _correct_  name. It is
on my birth certificate, drivers license, Social Security card, marriage
license, on court summons for jury duty, my will, and will be on my death
certificate, and tomb stone.

The following sums up how and why scientific epithets are, like my correct
name, the only correct names of organisms . It is a short excerpt from a
scientific paper I wrote. The subject matter of the article had nothing to
do with common names or common vs. scientific names. It had to do with
scientific epithets vs. other scientific epithets and the rules governing
such. Here is the quote.
    "Scientific names are not really names. They are technical labels which
are affixed to organisms to distinguish and organize them according to
their present relationships with near relatives as attained by their past
evolutionary path.  Each unique identifying label (name) is affixed to a
specific population and can not be moved by subsequent workers to apply to
another population of a different evolutionary station - be it another
species or subspecies. The linguistic identity of an organism is understood
by these Latinized scientific labels. The biological identity of these same
organisms is understood by the designation of a type specimen."

At this point I intend to use the phrase "correct name" rather than
"scientific name" in  future posts - as these are one in the same.  I would
not be disappointed if others did likewise. I am sure the other side will
object much like the Pro Life people were put on the defensive by the
"other sides" decision to call their movement Pro Choice. ... What, you are
against freedom of choice?  ... What, are you  against correct epithets?

Ron

PS  Since I use common names myself, I have no objection to common names
except that, 1) there needs to be a whole lot more of them - one for each
subspecific biological entity, and 2) that it be recognized that an
organism's correct name and its common name(s) (Camberwell Beauty/Mourning
Cloak) are on two entirely different scales. I also state, as I have in the
past, that those who insist on common names _only_ are part of a dumbed
down movement away from Lepidopterology and being lepidopterists.



 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 10 01:17:17 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:17:17 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: correct names
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010710001709.02867ba0@pop3.norton.antivirus>


>Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:16:13 -0500
>To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
>From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at mail.utexas.edu>
>Subject: Re: correct names
>
>Ron,
>    You are absolutely correct.
>............Chris Durden
>
>At 12:45 AM 7/10/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a couple of recent posts I used the phrase "correct name" in application
>>to what had previously only been referred to as scientific names on the
>>group.  This got a rise out of a few folks so I thought I'd post this.



 
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From andre.verboven at chello.be  Tue Jul 10 01:36:02 2001
From: andre.verboven at chello.be (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Verboven?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:36:02 +0200
Subject: unsubscribe LEPS-L
Message-ID: <003201c10902$351f1aa0$d9d2a2c3@upc.chello.be>


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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Tue Jul 10 02:33:47 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 02:33:47 -0400
Subject: names 2
Message-ID: <004a01c1090a$46892300$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

I thought I would address this question before it is asked. One might say
that there are perhaps several scientific epithets on "record" for a given
taxon - so which one is the _correct_ one?    Or, how can _A_ name be
correct when there are several to choose from?

The very fact that someone would ask these questions demonstrates that they
do not understand the science of systematic taxonomy.  One has to become
familiar with several terms, their definitions and applications. These
terms are.

Available name
Unavailable name
Valid name
Correct name

In the above questions what is being address is the issue of what is the
_valid name_ not correct name. One would be asking which of the proposed
(over time) names is the taxonomically valid name.

That is an entirely different issue than that of correct vs. common names.
Ron



 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Tue Jul 10 04:52:20 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:52:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Good light
References: <1010709205558.ZM18830@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <14392-3B4AC244-133@storefull-128.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

The lithographic industry uses that type of lighting also viewing
printed materials to check color. I believe I have seen small free
standing units advertised in printing magazines. If you would be
interested in something like that I will investigate further and find
out manufacturers names.


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 10 08:02:14 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:02:14 -0400
Subject: correct names 
In-Reply-To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle@tils-ttr.org>
        "correct names" (Jul 10, 12:45am)
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <1010710080218.ZM18734@Gochfeld>

Ron, we've been down the name line often before. A scientific name is NO 
MORE OR LESS correct and certainly no more stable over time than any 
other name which people bestow on what they think they understand as 
what may be a species (or other level taxon). 

The next reviser comes along with a different concept or method and the 
names change.  It's too bad that naming and classification have been 
inextricably linked in the past century.  Maybe the next century (or 
millenium) will see a different approach. Maybe it's the best mere 
mortals can accomplish.

But maybe it's not unique to organisms. Do other names change as 
language evolves.  Not everyone would immediately recognize what an 
"armoir" is. I bet we could think of other "species" of furniture, well 
known in Victorian times (or earlier) for which the names have changed. 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Tue Jul 10 08:52:46 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:52:46 -0400
Subject: correct names
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

All -

    Ron's missive about scientific names vs. common names is a very logical
presentation of the theories being the naming systems, but there are still
some gaping holes in the defense.  When Bill Yule recently inquired about
the two scientific names (Polites coras vs. Polites peckius) for Peck's
Skipper (also called Yellow-Patch Skipper by some) , there was a thundering
silence from the scientific community for over a week.  Finally, the
question was answered in a roundabout way that concluded, in effect, that
there was disagreement as to who named the bug the first, and there were
still disagreements about which was the proper name.

    Doesn't sound all that much like "the only correct name" to me.

    I have learned the scientific names for many of the common butterflies
in my area - it isn't very hard.  However, it usually comes in handy only
when I read older butterfly literature or happen to be talking to an
entomologist who, at the moment, can't remember a butterfly's common name.
It helps to smooth out the flow of information - period.  Let's not turn it
into an "us against them" mentality.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:45 AM
Subject: correct names


> In a couple of recent posts I used the phrase "correct name" in
application
> to what had previously only been referred to as scientific names on the
> group.  This got a rise out of a few folks so I thought I'd post this.
>
> The reason it got a rise is that the meaning of this phrase is very clear
> in two directions. First, it points to itself (scientific names) as
> correct, and by virtue of that, secondarily points to common names as
> somehow incorrect - which is obviously why those who use (sometimes
> exclusively) common names got their feathers ruffled.
>
> I chose that term because it is both accurate and sets common vs.
> scientific name usage in the proper context. Some of those who employ
> (exclusively) the usage of common names for organisms have given the
> _impression_ that the two name groupings - scientific and common - are
> equal. In other words it is simply that one faction chooses to use
> scientific and another common. It doesn't matter, one or the other as they
> are equal. That is the impression.
>
> The reality is that common and scientific names are not equal in any way
> shape or form. At birth I was given my proper name - Ronald Richard
> Gatrelle. Over the decades I have also been given various nick names - bug
> man, spider, dear, daddy etc. Yet, I only have one _correct_  name. It is
> on my birth certificate, drivers license, Social Security card, marriage
> license, on court summons for jury duty, my will, and will be on my death
> certificate, and tomb stone.
>
> The following sums up how and why scientific epithets are, like my correct
> name, the only correct names of organisms . It is a short excerpt from a
> scientific paper I wrote. The subject matter of the article had nothing to
> do with common names or common vs. scientific names. It had to do with
> scientific epithets vs. other scientific epithets and the rules governing
> such. Here is the quote.
>     "Scientific names are not really names. They are technical labels
which
> are affixed to organisms to distinguish and organize them according to
> their present relationships with near relatives as attained by their past
> evolutionary path.  Each unique identifying label (name) is affixed to a
> specific population and can not be moved by subsequent workers to apply to
> another population of a different evolutionary station - be it another
> species or subspecies. The linguistic identity of an organism is
understood
> by these Latinized scientific labels. The biological identity of these
same
> organisms is understood by the designation of a type specimen."
>
> At this point I intend to use the phrase "correct name" rather than
> "scientific name" in  future posts - as these are one in the same.  I
would
> not be disappointed if others did likewise. I am sure the other side will
> object much like the Pro Life people were put on the defensive by the
> "other sides" decision to call their movement Pro Choice. ... What, you
are
> against freedom of choice?  ... What, are you  against correct epithets?
>
> Ron
>
> PS  Since I use common names myself, I have no objection to common names
> except that, 1) there needs to be a whole lot more of them - one for each
> subspecific biological entity, and 2) that it be recognized that an
> organism's correct name and its common name(s) (Camberwell Beauty/Mourning
> Cloak) are on two entirely different scales. I also state, as I have in
the
> past, that those who insist on common names _only_ are part of a dumbed
> down movement away from Lepidopterology and being lepidopterists.
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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>
>


 
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From A.P.K.Torry at csm.ex.ac.uk  Tue Jul 10 10:02:02 2001
From: A.P.K.Torry at csm.ex.ac.uk (Andrew Torry)
Date: 10 Jul 2001 07:02:02 -0700
Subject: Colotis daira
Message-ID: <622884a8.0107100602.510f974e@posting.google.com>

I have recently returned from my holiday in the Almeria province of
Spain. I discovered in a narrow dried out flood channel next to my
apratment complex a thriving colony of the species Colotis daira (The
Black Marked Orange Tip). I have not found any mention of this species
in my books on the lepidoptera of europe except that it is mentioned
in the book 'Field guide to the Butterflies and Burnets of Spain'
Manley & Allcard. They describe it being an infrequent visitor that
may become established. I can tell you that this colony was quite
large numbering several dozen adults (Shhhh! Don't tell 'Guardia
civil' but I did take a small series of token specimens). There was
also several examples of Gegenes nostradamus (Mediterranean Skipper)
buzzing about there as well.

Does anyone in the group know whether this species has indeed
established itself in S. Spain or was it just an example of a large
migration?

Andrew

 
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From david.h.webster at ns.sympatico.ca  Tue Jul 10 10:44:33 2001
From: david.h.webster at ns.sympatico.ca (David  Webster)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:44:33 -0300
Subject: Moth book for eastern Canada
References: <000d01c10844$3c1cc000$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B4B14D1.B9F8DA0@ns.sympatico.ca>

Hi Ron & All,                July 10, 2001
    Eastern Moths (Covell) includes a fair selection of micros
and for this
reason alone is indispensable.
Dave Webster, Kentville, Nova Scotia

Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> The Handfield book mentioned by Jeff Crolla is what you want and all you
> need. There is nothing else close to this for your area. I'm looking at my
> copy to see how many species are dealt with - it looks like 1,460 species.
> As I said you are not going to find anything to top this. I live in South
> Carolina USA and find it very useful.
>
> For those who may have missed Jeff's post it is titled. Le Guide Des
> Papilions Du Quebec.  Yes, it is in French. But, as they say, a picture is
> worth a thousand words.
> Ron Gatrelle
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 10 12:00:52 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:00:52 -0400
Subject: correct names
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A00@NTFS2>
Message-ID: <3B4B26B4.2989695E@eohsi.rutgers.edu>



"In response to my recent posting, Alex wrote: Grkovich, Alex" wrote:
Just recently, we have been "informed" that the Hairstreak favonius is
now to be called the Oak Hairstreak (?). Never mind that several
Hairstreaks use Oaks as the foodplant.   Or that  all
> > Limentits arthemis are now to be referred to as "Red Spotted Admirals"?

=================================================
I agree entirely that OAK HAIRSTREAK is a poor compromise because other
species of hairstreaks like Oaks. Of all the species on the New Jersey
list, this is the one whose nomenclature we dealt with most extensively
in BUTTERFLIES OF NEW JERSEY.  To make a long story short, when Satyrium
ontario (usually published as Fixsenia Ontario) and known as Northern
Hairstreak was lumped with Satyrium favonius (Southern Hairstreak), the
scientific name favonius had priority (Smith 1797 vs Edwards 1868).
Unfortunately, the name Southern Hairstreak was chosen for the species
as a whole (even though priority doesn't affect vernacular names (as Ron
and Alex point out, there's no international convention). 

It was particularly annoying for New Jersey where the race ontario
occurs, and where Southern Hairstreak was doubly inappropriate.  But, as
we pointed out the combined species is NEITHER particularly Northern nor
particularly Southern in its distribution as Satyriums go. We
compromised and our species entry calls it the "Southern or Northern
Hairstreak"---an act of rebellion since we had earlier claimed that our
common names followed the NABA checklist. 

We concluded our writeup as follows: "Opler and Krizek (1984) state that
favonius is named after the "western spring wind [Latin]" certainly a
neutral name for this species. An alternative name would be the Scarce
Hairstreak since it is generally rare throughout its range."  

I'm not sure now, just how scarce this butterfly is. It does seem to be
sporadic, showing up in fair numbers in one place, one year and then not
found at all the next. But I don't know whether this applies to the
"southern" Hairstreak. So maybe Scarce Hairstreak isn't appropriate for
this species, and probably other Hairstreaks are Scarce as well. 

Other alternatives would be "Spring Wind Hairstreak"  "Favonius
Hairstreak".  etc.

My understanding is that the NABA Committee avoided coining new names as
much as possible. Moreover, it did try to formulate some naming
conventions for common names, and these were articulated in its
publication. 

Just to get in a dig, however, I think that this species is a poor
example if one believes in the stability of scientific names. 

 



================================================
Michael Gochfeld, MD, PhD
Professor of Environmental and Community Medicine
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and
Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute
170 Frelinghuysen Road
Piscataway, NJ 08854  USA
732-445-0123 X627  fax 732-445-0130

 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 10 12:36:28 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:36:28 -0500
Subject: correct names
In-Reply-To: <001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010710112235.02890e20@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Both *Polites coras* and *Polites peckius* are correct names if you think 
they are not the same species. *Polites coras* is the correct name if you 
think they are both the same species. It is as simple as that.
    What is neither correct nor incorrect is the opinion of conspecificity. 
As a rather ordinary scientific "fact" this is only the opinion of experts 
based on expert evaluation of the evidence at hand today. Tomorrow a new 
study of the DNA in different populations may suggest to experts that there 
are three species in this complex!
    A name is correct only at the moment that an expert renders an opinion. 
Experts can revise their opinions. Several experts may come to different 
opinions. Experts can be obliged to change their opinions by presentation 
of new evidence. They are not obliged to change their opinions by usage, 
precedent or fiat.
...................Chris Durden

At 08:52 AM 7/10/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>All -
>
>     Ron's missive about scientific names vs. common names is a very logical
>presentation of the theories being the naming systems, but there are still
>some gaping holes in the defense.  When Bill Yule recently inquired about
>the two scientific names (Polites coras vs. Polites peckius) for Peck's
>Skipper (also called Yellow-Patch Skipper by some) , there was a thundering
>silence from the scientific community for over a week.  Finally, the
>question was answered in a roundabout way that concluded, in effect, that
>there was disagreement as to who named the bug the first, and there were
>still disagreements about which was the proper name.
>
>     Doesn't sound all that much like "the only correct name" to me.
>
>     I have learned the scientific names for many of the common butterflies
>in my area - it isn't very hard.  However, it usually comes in handy only
>when I read older butterfly literature or happen to be talking to an
>entomologist who, at the moment, can't remember a butterfly's common name.
>It helps to smooth out the flow of information - period.  Let's not turn it
>into an "us against them" mentality.
>
>Clay Taylor
>Moodus, CT
>ctaylor at att.net



 
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From rworth at oda.state.or.us  Tue Jul 10 12:46:56 2001
From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:46:56 -0700
Subject: Western Oregon Field Report
Message-ID: <v04220801b770d39e93e7@[192.152.7.83]>

Hi all,
With the Natl. Lep Soc Meeting just around the corner, I thought I 
would post a list of what I saw/collected last Saturday, 7 July, in 
the Coast Range.  This is similar habitat and hosts pretty much the 
same species as McDonald State Forest near Corvallis.  This site is 
about 30 mi N of McD. Forest.  Names are based on a current list of 
subspecies worked up by Andy Warren (Oct. 2000) at OSU to update 
Dornfeld's book.

Epargyreus clarus californicus
Euphyes vestris vestris

Parnassius clodius clodius - many
Papilio rutulus rutulus - many
Papilio eurymedon - many

Pieris marginalis (summer, little or no veining)- fresh

Celastrina ladon echo - fresh, summer
Plebejus (Icaricia?) acmon acmon

Speyeria cybele pugetensis - fresh
Speyeria hydaspe rhodope - fresh
Phyciodes mylitta mylitta
Euphydryas colon colon - worn
Vanessa cardui - fresh, next generation after "the wave"
Polygonia sp. (dark, prob. gracilis or oreas)
Limenitis lorquini burrisoni

Coenonympha tullia eunomia
Cercyonis pegala ariane--------these two satyrids are actually more 
common in the Willamette valley

If I'm not mistaken, I saw a notice for a NABA natl. meeting in Bend 
for the weekend just before the Lep Soc Meeting.  Is this correct? 
If so, I find their location and timing most intriguing.

Net swingers, camera shooters, binoc lookers, butterfly huggers, etc...
let's put flowers in each others hair, hold hands in a big circle and 
sing kumbaya...
kidding

Peace,  Rich









Richard A. Worth
Oregon Department of Agriculture
Plant Division
rworth at oda.state.or.us
(503) 986-6461

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Tue Jul 10 13:02:09 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:02:09 -0400
Subject: Moth book for eastern Canada
References: <000d01c10844$3c1cc000$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B4B14D1.B9F8DA0@ns.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <001701c10962$0e9e87c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Thanks - I stand adjusted :-)
Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Webster" <david.h.webster at ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Moth book for eastern Canada


> Hi Ron & All,                July 10, 2001
>     Eastern Moths (Covell) includes a fair selection of micros
> and for this
> reason alone is indispensable.
> Dave Webster, Kentville, Nova Scotia
>
> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
>
> > The Handfield book mentioned by Jeff Crolla is what you want and all
you
> > need. There is nothing else close to this for your area. I'm looking at
my
> > copy to see how many species are dealt with - it looks like 1,460
species.
> > As I said you are not going to find anything to top this. I live in
South
> > Carolina USA and find it very useful.
> >
> > For those who may have missed Jeff's post it is titled. Le Guide Des
> > Papilions Du Quebec.  Yes, it is in French. But, as they say, a picture
is
> > worth a thousand words.
> > Ron Gatrelle
> >



 
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From spruance at infinet.com  Tue Jul 10 12:06:22 2001
From: spruance at infinet.com (Eric or Pat Metzler)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:06:22 -0400
Subject: Good light
References: <000201c108a1$15dc4ac0$7e62a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <3b4b2971$0$88192$ac966d11@news.raex.com>

I just carry mine to the window and look at them under daylight conditions.
If you have no windows, that could be a problem.

<cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:000201c108a1$15dc4ac0$7e62a58e at allez123...
> I am sure it is no great revelation to say that examining leps in natural
> light is far superior to seeing them under incandescent light bulbs.
> However, when I am unsure of an id in the field I take a specimen home and
> head for my library where I consult the muses and the tomes - in
> incandescent light.  Suggestions please in how I should solve my lighting
> problem.
>
> Martin Bailey,
>
> cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
> phone/fax   306 842-8936
>
> 102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
> Weyburn, SK., Canada.
> S4H 2X3
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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>



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Tue Jul 10 13:20:58 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:20:58 -0400
Subject: correct names
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A00@NTFS2> <3B4B26B4.2989695E@eohsi.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <002201c10964$afd165c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Comments inserted - some snips too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gochfeld" <gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: correct names



> "In response to my recent posting, Alex wrote: Grkovich, Alex" wrote:
> Just recently, we have been "informed" that the Hairstreak favonius is
> now to be called the Oak Hairstreak (?). Never mind that several
> Hairstreaks use Oaks as the foodplant.   Or that  all
> > > Limentits arthemis are now to be referred to as "Red Spotted
Admirals"?
>
> =================================================
> I agree entirely that OAK HAIRSTREAK is a poor compromise because other
> species of hairstreaks like Oaks. Of all the species on the New Jersey
> list, this is the one whose nomenclature we dealt with most extensively
> in BUTTERFLIES OF NEW JERSEY.  To make a long story short, when Satyrium
> ontario (usually published as Fixsenia Ontario) and known as Northern
> Hairstreak was lumped with Satyrium favonius (Southern Hairstreak), the
> scientific name favonius had priority (Smith 1797 vs Edwards 1868).
> Unfortunately, the name Southern Hairstreak was chosen for the species
> as a whole (even though priority doesn't affect vernacular names (as Ron
> and Alex point out, there's no international convention).
>

The lumping of hordes of hairstreaks around the world under Satyrium is a
gross error in my book. I think Clench started that? It is too bad some
have followed this. Fixsenia is a good genus - again in my view.

> It was particularly annoying for New Jersey where the race ontario
> occurs, and where Southern Hairstreak was doubly inappropriate.  But, as
> we pointed out the combined species is NEITHER particularly Northern nor
> particularly Southern in its distribution as Satyriums go. We
> compromised and our species entry calls it the "Southern or Northern
> Hairstreak"---an act of rebellion since we had earlier claimed that our
> common names followed the NABA checklist.
>
snip
> I'm not sure now, just how scarce this butterfly is. It does seem to be
> sporadic, showing up in fair numbers in one place, one year and then not
> found at all the next. But I don't know whether this applies to the
> "southern" Hairstreak. So maybe Scarce Hairstreak isn't appropriate for
> this species, and probably other Hairstreaks are Scarce as well.
>

There is a big chapter to be written on "favonius" as it is in the South.
But here, ontario is a subspecies of favonius - according to Robins, I'm
the person who formally aligned this. From coastal SC south into Florida
the "favonius" entities are abundant.

> Other alternatives would be "Spring Wind Hairstreak"  "Favonius
> Hairstreak".  etc.
>

There is only one common sense common name for the northern subspecies -
that is the Ontario Hairstreak, which of course has nothing to do with the
fact that it is hardly found in Ontario, but rather that with THAT common
name everyone would know what was being referred to - like King's, Hessel's
etc. But then to call it the Ontario Hairstreak one might just as well
stick with ontario hairstreak.
Ron


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Tue Jul 10 15:16:21 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:16:21 -0400
Subject: Western Oregon Field Report
References: <v04220801b770d39e93e7@[192.152.7.83]>
Message-ID: <005c01c10974$ce6d2400$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Hi Rich,
    Two things. First, I loved the kumbaya suggestion.... Oh, that life was
that simple.
    Second. On your listing of Speyeria hydaspe rhodope, I do not know if
you are aware of Norbert Kondla's recent paper on this but you can access
the abstract and first page of his paper at http://tils-ttr.org  At this
home page click on Taxonomic Report and then click on Vol. 3. where you
will find his paper. Just click on the Issue number and it will open in
Adobe.
    According to his research on names and type localities rhodope would
not be in Oregon Coast Range. Rhodope and sakuntala are the same thing with
sakuntala being a junior synonym of rhodope.
    Actually, now that I think about it, you should be able to locate the
entire paper at Oregon State entomological library as all issues of The
Taxonomic Report are sent to them.
    Wish I could make the Lep. Soc. meeting - but not so. Made it last year
here in neighboring North Carolina.
 Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Worth" <rworth at oda.state.or.us>
Subject: Western Oregon Field Report


> Hi all,
> With the Natl. Lep Soc Meeting just around the corner, I thought I
> would post a list of what I saw/collected last Saturday, 7 July, in
> the Coast Range.  This is similar habitat and hosts pretty much the
> same species as McDonald State Forest near Corvallis.  This site is
> about 30 mi N of McD. Forest.  Names are based on a current list of
> subspecies worked up by Andy Warren (Oct. 2000) at OSU to update
> Dornfeld's book.
>
> Epargyreus clarus californicus
> Euphyes vestris vestris
>
> Parnassius clodius clodius - many
> Papilio rutulus rutulus - many
> Papilio eurymedon - many
>
> Pieris marginalis (summer, little or no veining)- fresh
>
> Celastrina ladon echo - fresh, summer
> Plebejus (Icaricia?) acmon acmon
>
> Speyeria cybele pugetensis - fresh
> Speyeria hydaspe rhodope - fresh
> Phyciodes mylitta mylitta
> Euphydryas colon colon - worn
> Vanessa cardui - fresh, next generation after "the wave"
> Polygonia sp. (dark, prob. gracilis or oreas)
> Limenitis lorquini burrisoni
>
> Coenonympha tullia eunomia
> Cercyonis pegala ariane--------these two satyrids are actually more
> common in the Willamette valley
>
> If I'm not mistaken, I saw a notice for a NABA natl. meeting in Bend
> for the weekend just before the Lep Soc Meeting.  Is this correct?
> If so, I find their location and timing most intriguing.
>
> Net swingers, camera shooters, binoc lookers, butterfly huggers, etc...
> let's put flowers in each others hair, hold hands in a big circle and
> sing kumbaya...
> kidding
>
> Peace,  Rich
>



 
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Tue Jul 10 15:14:59 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:14:59 -0400
Subject: Unknown
Message-ID: <000c01c10974$9ea11e20$f2890a3f@1swch01>

Hey!

Can anyone ID the bug at http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/1_iron1/lst?.dir=/Unknowns&.src=ph&.last=1 ? 

Jim Taylor
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Tue Jul 10 16:42:49 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:42:49 -0400
Subject: correct + coras/peckius 
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


Clay Taylor wrote

snip    ....When Bill Yule recently inquired about
> the two scientific names (Polites coras vs. Polites peckius) for Peck's
> Skipper (also called Yellow-Patch Skipper by some) , there was a
thundering
> silence from the scientific community for over a week.  Finally, the
> question was answered in a roundabout way that concluded, in effect, that
> there was disagreement as to who named the bug the first, and there were
> still disagreements about which was the proper name.

Actually, I was going to answer that immediately but decided not to as I
undoubtedly post too much as it is. I left this to others. Chris Durden
gave a good generalized answer today. To answer the question, one has to be
familiar with all the taxonomic papers dirrectly on the subject of coras
vs. peckius. It is unfortunate that those who write the "guides" are nearly
always just quoting someone eles's opinion   which in turn was based on
some other's opinion.  In many ways I do not fault them for this. Taxonomy
is work and to up to speed on everything is tough.

Now, the phrase "correct name" as I used it to = scientific epithets, does
not apply here.  Coras vs. peckius is a technical question about which of
these  two taxonomically "available names" is the "valid name" for this
skipper.  This is a question of "nomenclatural correctness" - which is very
different than scientific IDs (as a category) being correct in opposition
to common names (as a catagory).

The changes we see in common names are a matter of personal whims. The
changes that are observed within correct names are dictated by 1) the rules
(Principles of Priority) of the ICZN as 2) applied to, and in conjunction
with, the best available science at the current time relative to organic
evolutionary hierarchical relationships. Here I have a bone to pick with
the "professionals" who seem to think they are "free" to choose what ever
scientific ID they want. See the ICZN glossary under names and then under
"valid".  A taxon only has one valid (nomenclaturally correct name). Now,
there are at times valid arguments among "experts" about which available
names should be employed - especially at the level of genus. But specific
and subspecific names should be fairly hard and fast once "pinned" down.
This is email and I see my frustration already at the communicative
limitations I am under. So I will quit here - for now.
Ron


 
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From too at much.spam  Tue Jul 10 17:31:31 2001
From: too at much.spam (pimmsta)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:31:31 +0100
Subject: ID request
Message-ID: <9ifs5o$hfa$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>

Unusual caterpillar found in the Midlands (England).  Apparently it happily
eats strawberries!?

Length is about 2 cm (3 cm with hairs).

http://www.pimmsta.freeserve.co.uk/caterpillar.jpg




Many thanks.



 
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From rworth at oda.state.or.us  Tue Jul 10 19:02:56 2001
From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:02:56 -0700
Subject: ID request
In-Reply-To: <9ifs5o$hfa$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
References: <9ifs5o$hfa$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <v04220807b77138ff6754@[192.152.7.83]>

Looks a lot like Orgyia antiqua, the Rusty Tussock Moth, here in the 
US which I thought was an introduced sp. from Europe.  Anyone else? 
Rich

>Unusual caterpillar found in the Midlands (England).  Apparently it happily
>eats strawberries!?
>
>Length is about 2 cm (3 cm with hairs).
>
>http://www.pimmsta.freeserve.co.uk/caterpillar.jpg
>
>
>
>
>Many thanks.
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

Richard A. Worth
Oregon Department of Agriculture
Plant Division
rworth at oda.state.or.us
(503) 986-6461

 
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From Walter.Schoen at t-online.de  Tue Jul 10 18:41:07 2001
From: Walter.Schoen at t-online.de (Walter Schön)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:41:07 +0200
Subject: ID request
References: <9ifs5o$hfa$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9ig0bd$emm$00$1@news.t-online.com>

Hello,

seems to be  "The Vapourer" , Orgyia antiqua.

Compare with a picture at my German Butterfly homepage
www.schmetterling-raupe.de
Use link "Schmetterlinge"
then link |Arten|
then "Spinner, Schlehen-"

Walter



 
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From droberts03 at snet.net  Tue Jul 10 19:43:06 2001
From: droberts03 at snet.net (bill and Dale)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:43:06 -0400
Subject: The Name Game
Message-ID: <3B4B9309.9FC0907A@snet.net>

Toni, Toni, bo boni, banana bana bo boni, fee fi fo foni...Toni!
Hi everybody, I'm Bill Yule, the guy who asked that silly question about
Peck's Yellow patched Skipper, Polites coras/Polites peckius. I don't
know how to italicize using my email program so technically my
scientific name citations are incorrect, if that's possible, and for
that I apologize. Actually my name question had to do with whether the
issues were taxonomic or nomenclatural, and Chris Durden answered my
question very articulately and thoroughly and gave some history too. I
think he might have answered again today too.

From hkmoths at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jul 10 22:02:02 2001
From: hkmoths at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Roger=20C.=20KENDRICK?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 03:02:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ID request
In-Reply-To: <v04220807b77138ff6754@[192.152.7.83]>
Message-ID: <20010711020202.7821.qmail@web4405.mail.yahoo.com>

I agree with Richard - O.antica (Lymantriidae). the English vernacular =
Vapourer Moth (so much for one vernacular name!!!!!  :-)  )  Guys (& Girls) -
when will the time come that you realise 99% (possibly more) of the world's
species will never be generally regarded as charismatic mega (meso / micro!!)
fauna and are thus very unlikely to be given a vernacular name. For the few who
need to refer to organisms in a systematic manner, please let us use the
scientific nomenclature system, with all its shortcomings, as the primary means
of communicating what we're talking about. If you want to learn the scientific
names of species, then please make the effort to understand that it's flawed,
but that there are rules (see IZNC). That butterflies have vernacular names
merely illustrates that they are creatures that are looked at by people in
general, something which should be regarded as a blessing.

cheers for the line-time,

Roger.

 --- Richard Worth <rworth at oda.state.or.us> wrote: > Looks a lot like Orgyia
antiqua, the Rusty Tussock Moth, here in the 
> US which I thought was an introduced sp. from Europe.  Anyone else? 
> Rich
> 
> >Unusual caterpillar found in the Midlands (England).  Apparently it happily
> >eats strawberries!?
> >
> >Length is about 2 cm (3 cm with hairs).
> >
> >http://www.pimmsta.freeserve.co.uk/caterpillar.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
> 
> Richard A. Worth
> Oregon Department of Agriculture
> Plant Division
> rworth at oda.state.or.us
> (503) 986-6461
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
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>  
>  

=====
Roger C. KENDRICK
Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Ecology & Biodiversity, The University of Hong Kong
Senior Conservation Officer, Fauna Conservation, Kadoorie Farm & Botanic Garden, H.K.
http://kfbg.org.hk/
http://hkusub.hku.hk/~kendrick/hkmoth.htm
http://hkusub.hku.hk/~kendrick/IGMHKinfo.htm
moths at kfbg.org.hk, hkmoths at yahoo.co.uk or kendrick at hkusua.hku.hk

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Tue Jul 10 22:11:36 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:11:36 -0500
Subject: Lepidoptera Lexicography vs. Lepidoptera Lasciviousness
Message-ID: <20010710.211211.-325537.1.mbpi@juno.com>

Hi there....

While you guys all argue about "correct/scientific/common names," I'm
going to interrupt with a thread of my own for all the bored-silly and
silent gals out there who are hungry for more titillating conversation: 
Butterfly ***SEX***  (Okay, you guys can listen in if you are so
inclined...)

Yesterday, I was certain that the public outdoor butterfly exhibit that I
monitor had sunk to the lowest depths of depravity...until today.  Chalk
it off to a combination of overpopulation in a confined, contrived
environment coupled with an insufferable humidity index...aberrant
butterfly behavior is running wild in the pastoral confines of my
ethereal butterfly "garden!"

For some time, I've noticed that the male Zebra Longwings (and THEY know
who they ARE, "correctly" speaking), have been routinely patrolling the
hanging chrysalides of their sibling species in search of "near-eclosing"
females...an opportunistic strategy employed by them, to mate with newly
emerged "virgins" even before they've had the chance to spread their
wings and fly (!)  An especially "hot" female will often have two or
three randy males gripping her chrysalis in anticipation of emerging
nirvana...  Only one "gets lucky."  I come into work at 7:00 a.m. and
find the persistent, besotted males hooked up to their "intended" in
connubial bliss, though I've never seen the actual "attack."  By the time
I get there, the females' wings are completely inflated and dried, and a
captive partner.

Two days ago, things got bad...there was a dearth of  female Longwings,
so the frustrated and frenzied males were patrolling and confiscating
near-eclosing Queen butterflies (!)  They staked out their "brides" and
gripped their chyrsalides for all they were worth...  I didn't know what
to expect when I came in the next morning.

What I found the next morning were a lot of newly eclosed Queens and one
"successful?" Zebra Longwing who had managed to grasp the abdomen
(albeit, in the "wrong place..") of a newly emerged Queen male, who was
desperately trying to extricate himself AND pump up his underinflated
wings at the same time.  The Zebra Longwing was oblivious to its "missing
the mark," much less to having hooked up with the wrong species (!)  I
tried to intervene for the sake of the male Queen, but the tenacity of
the Zebra L. was more than a match for me.  I gave up and left them to
their deluded depravity.

If that wasn't bad enough, today I walked into the garden and found THREE
male Zebras hooked up to ONE newly emerged female Zebra...talk about
"group sex."   And to  top things off, I also discovered a male Zebra
"necrophiliac" that had broken through the chrysalis of an unemerged
female, and was "going to town" with her corpse...

Are there "support groups" for individuals in my current line of work?! 
Someone suggested I needed to start one....  Instead, I'm reading a book
about the racehorse, Seabiscuit, which takes my mind temporarily off the
"winged beasts" (i.e. no sexual content).

I shudder to think:  What next?!  Perhaps a black shroud over the tent
with a sign stating:  Absolutely NO ONE under 17 admitted without a
parent or guardian!

M.B. Prondzinski
The Depraved USA
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 10 23:20:05 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:20:05 -0400
Subject: Lepidoptera Lasciviousness
In-Reply-To: mbpi@juno.com
        "Lepidoptera Lexicography vs. Lepidoptera Lasciviousness" (Jul 10,  9:11pm)
References: <20010710.211211.-325537.1.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <1010711004002.ZM18150@Gochfeld>

Mary Beth, 

It sounds exciting. It doesn't strike me as unexpected. When typical 
behaviors are thwarted they may be redirected to an inappropriate 
object. That's probably pretty classical Lorenz/Tinbergen stuff. But, I 
don't know that anyone has actually documented its form as you have. 
It's interesting to know how long the males persist and whether they 
break off spontaneously.  What would happen if a correct female 
chrysalis was suddenly planted near one of the inappropriate couplings. 
Would the male be able to break off the relationship. If this persists 
you could actually do some experiments, but I suppose you can't tell in 
advance which chrysalid is going to be the female vs themale. 

I suppose you could simply remove all chyrsalids and induce the abnormal 
behavior and then replace several at a time (assuming that thesex ratio 
is more or less equal). 

Have fun. MIKE GOCHFELD


 
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From Wingsofgra at aol.com  Wed Jul 11 03:02:02 2001
From: Wingsofgra at aol.com (Wingsofgra at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 03:02:02 EDT
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <18.f18d4c5.287d53ea@aol.com>

 

 
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From Martin.Livemore at penguin.co.uk  Wed Jul 11 03:10:51 2001
From: Martin.Livemore at penguin.co.uk (Martin Livemore)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:10:51 +0100
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <07A143A0EAC4D211BD040008C7B98392022FCBB1@EXCHHAR>




Authors uncovered , exclusive extracts, interviews and chats - get closer
with www.penguin.co.uk

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From too at much.spam  Wed Jul 11 03:07:13 2001
From: too at much.spam (pimmsta)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:07:13 +0100
Subject: ID request
References: <9ifs5o$hfa$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Message-ID: <9igttj$v56$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>

Nice one, thanks guys.



 
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From Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se  Wed Jul 11 04:54:40 2001
From: Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se (Niklas Wahlberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:54:40 +0200
Subject: Unsubscribing
In-Reply-To: <07A143A0EAC4D211BD040008C7B98392022FCBB1@EXCHHAR>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010711105110.00b57d18@mail.it.su.se>

Those wanting to unsubscribe from this list should please consult the 
web-pages given at the bottom of each LEPS-L message. The leps-l address is 
not a list maintenance address!

Cheers,
Niklas

At 08:10 2001.07.11 +0100, Martin Livemore wrote:

>
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Wed Jul 11 07:26:26 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:26:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ???
Message-ID: <11435-3B4C37E2-1@storefull-126.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Anybody ever experiment with those seal-a-meal pouches to store
specimens until you have the time to mount them?


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca  Wed Jul 11 08:44:43 2001
From: tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca (Thomas, Tony)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:44:43 -0400
Subject: Hawk Moth Images 
Message-ID: <AE31BA966650D511BE7C0002A534A63C11C724@s2-fre-r1.fcmr.forestry.ca>

> I have recently updated our "Macromoths of Fundy National Park, New
> Brunswick, Canada" web-page with new images, pinned adults, of 15 species
> of Sphingidae. This represents all the species of sphingids known from the
> park.
	Clicking on any of the 15 links at the bottom of this page will take
you to a species, from there you can readily access the other species and
the complete data set. 

> Tony
> 
> 
> Dr. A.W. Thomas
> Research Scientist
> Canadian Forest Service - Atlantic Forestry Centre
> Natural Resources Canada
> PO Box 4000
> 1350 Regent Street
> Fredericton, NB
> E3B 5P7
> 
>  e-mail: tthomas at nrcan.gc.ca
> 'phone (506) 452-3523
> FAX (506) 452-3525
> 
> Illustrated Checklist of Fundy National Park Moths:
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/family_s-e.html
> 
> Giant Silkmoths of Fundy National Park:
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/family-e.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7787-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7809-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7810-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7811-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7812-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7817-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7821-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7822-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7824-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7825-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7827-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7828-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7855-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7886-e.html
> http://192.75.17.5/cfs_afc/CFS_AFC_FBN/biodiv-e/moth_d-e/7893-e.html
> 
> 

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Wed Jul 11 11:41:01 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:41:01 -0400
Subject: Butterflies of New Jersey
In-Reply-To: John Grehan <jrg13@psu.edu>
        "Butterflies of New Jersey" (Jul 11,  7:57am)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010711075132.00cbac50@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <1010711114104.ZM22254@Gochfeld>

To John Grehan

I just checked  www.amazon.com and they have our NJ butterfly book 
apparently available. It must be selling because it ranks  438,000ths 
among their sales (some rank below 1 million). 

The title is Butterflies of New Jersey.  Published by Rutgers Univ 
Press. Amazon lists it for $22.00 plus shipping.

I hope this helps.  Let me know if they don't actually have any left. 

Mike Gochfeld

 



 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Wed Jul 11 11:58:46 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:58:46 -0400
Subject: correct + coras/peckius 
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> <008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c10a22$5ee64680$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

Ron -

    Fair enough.  After taking a few Excedrin, it all makes sense,

    Seriously, though, an amateur like me has no possible way of knowing
these facts, or even WHERE to look to find them.  I'm not a serious
entomologist and never will be, but I'm a pretty good field observer that
relies on material published for the masses for "correct" information
(including both common and scientific names).

    I realize that the whole "Names" thread started out as a
venting-of-frustration exercise (albeit a very public one), but for me there
were some interesting nuggets of information to be sifted out of the
rhetoric (it took a LOT of sifting).

    That's why I subscribe to this list - to hear about what butterflies
others are seeing across the country (a too-small percentage of the total
messages), and to learn new stuff from people that know more about the
subject than I do.   The grandstanding, snobbery, and intolerance that seem
to dominate the postings oftentimes make reading them quite tedious and
frustrating.  Let's hear more field reports, and less arguing.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: correct + coras/peckius


>
> Clay Taylor wrote
>
> snip    ....When Bill Yule recently inquired about
> > the two scientific names (Polites coras vs. Polites peckius) for Peck's
> > Skipper (also called Yellow-Patch Skipper by some) , there was a
> thundering
> > silence from the scientific community for over a week.  Finally, the
> > question was answered in a roundabout way that concluded, in effect,
that
> > there was disagreement as to who named the bug the first, and there were
> > still disagreements about which was the proper name.
>
> Actually, I was going to answer that immediately but decided not to as I
> undoubtedly post too much as it is. I left this to others. Chris Durden
> gave a good generalized answer today. To answer the question, one has to
be
> familiar with all the taxonomic papers dirrectly on the subject of coras
> vs. peckius. It is unfortunate that those who write the "guides" are
nearly
> always just quoting someone eles's opinion   which in turn was based on
> some other's opinion.  In many ways I do not fault them for this. Taxonomy
> is work and to up to speed on everything is tough.
>
> Now, the phrase "correct name" as I used it to = scientific epithets, does
> not apply here.  Coras vs. peckius is a technical question about which of
> these  two taxonomically "available names" is the "valid name" for this
> skipper.  This is a question of "nomenclatural correctness" - which is
very
> different than scientific IDs (as a category) being correct in opposition
> to common names (as a catagory).
>
> The changes we see in common names are a matter of personal whims. The
> changes that are observed within correct names are dictated by 1) the
rules
> (Principles of Priority) of the ICZN as 2) applied to, and in conjunction
> with, the best available science at the current time relative to organic
> evolutionary hierarchical relationships. Here I have a bone to pick with
> the "professionals" who seem to think they are "free" to choose what ever
> scientific ID they want. See the ICZN glossary under names and then under
> "valid".  A taxon only has one valid (nomenclaturally correct name). Now,
> there are at times valid arguments among "experts" about which available
> names should be employed - especially at the level of genus. But specific
> and subspecific names should be fairly hard and fast once "pinned" down.
> This is email and I see my frustration already at the communicative
> limitations I am under. So I will quit here - for now.
> Ron
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Wed Jul 11 13:17:00 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:17:00 -0600
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123>

I was given yesterday a report done on nest predators of the ducks of an
area on the open prairie.  A progress report done by a M.Sc. candidate.
Used statistics to prove his arguments and named the egg eating mammals in
Latin.

One of them animals  we call locally The Gopher.  Now there are gophers and
there are gophers.  According to the soon to be learned gentleman, the
gopher that was eating the birds' eggs was Spermophilus franklinii - a bushy
tailed beast with a gray face.  I was astonished that the gopher that I
loved to hate and saw all the time running around on the open plains never
looked gray-faced before and never appeared to have a bushy tail.  My
gopher - the one I love to hate - in smart Latin talk is known as
Spermophilus richardsonii.  In local argot that other one, Spermophilus
franklinii, is known as The Grey Gopher.

I like descriptive names like Mourning Dove named because of its plaintive
cooing. Or Mourning Cloak Butterfly because its folded wing on a twig looks
like a shroud.  Or rattlesnake.  It concentrates the mind.

And so should it be with butterfly names.  They should describe and
elucidate as well as be standardized.

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3




 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Wed Jul 11 14:10:55 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:10:55 -0400
Subject: correct + coras/peckius
In-Reply-To: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor@swarovskioptik.com>
        "Re: correct + coras/peckius" (Jul 11, 11:58am)
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> 
	<008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<000b01c10a22$5ee64680$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <1010711141108.ZM6486@Gochfeld>

Since I just did a butterfly survey in the yard and found virtually 
nothing, I'll respond to Clay, perhaps just to be mischieveous. The 
notion that field biologists have to identify something to species, is 
not a divine requirement. It may be unique to butterfly and bird 
watche3rs.  Most entomologists and many botanists, I've been afield 
with, are content to get something to family (i.e. beetles) or genus 
(i.e. grasses), and recognize that somethings (i.e. Crateagus) don't 
behave properly at all. In the next message, I'll post the results of 
the Vischer Ferry (Albany, NY) 4JC, in which lamentably, a new 'species' 
was added, but not identifiable. 

In the grand scheme of things it will matter most to those who try to 
have spreadsheets that total neatly across rows and down columns (? dont 
get summed, although they do get counted). 

To read a really great account of this try C. Brooke Worth's chapter in 
A NATURALIST IN TRINIDAD, where he describes the compulsive behavior of 
his good friend Tommy Aitken who was responsible for mosquito sampling 
for ARBO viruses.  Each day the field techs would bring in dozens of 
samples containing dozens of individuals, and the lab techs would 
have to identify them and talley them.  When they were all identified, 
there would be a sort-of-spread sheet (a-la-1960s).  Brooke described 
how if there were one miscount (something didn't add up to the field 
totals), Tommy would order the techs to take out all the individuals and 
re-identify them, just so the books would add up right. 

Brooke proudly said that he would have been comfortable to just guess 
what the missing bug probably was  (surveyors call this error of 
closure). 

Anyway, we only have to identify bugs to species because we want to, not 
because we have to or because the bugs really believe in it. That goes 
for Peck's Skipper (which by the way should be out in numbers here now, 
but isn't). 

The sun is out, maybe there will be some butterflies in the yard besides 
Pieris rapae and Erynnis baptisae.  

MIKE GOCHFELD
Somerset, NJ

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Wed Jul 11 14:20:29 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:20:29 -0400
Subject: 10th Vischer Ferry 4JC (Albany NY)
In-Reply-To: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor@swarovskioptik.com>
        "Re: correct + coras/peckius" (Jul 11, 11:58am)
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> 
	<008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<000b01c10a22$5ee64680$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <1010711142033.ZM6486@Gochfeld>

The weather was 
The VISCHER FERRY COUNT covers the area between Albany and Schenectady, 
 NY on both sides of the Mohawk River.  There are only two parties, and 
the coverage is mainly in the River flood plain, including the Vischer 
Ferry Preserve.  One party also spends a half day in the Albany Pine 
Bush (Karner, NY). 

This is the tenth year for the count.  Coverage has been virtually the 
same each year. The main modification has been the disappearance of some 
favored fields and the addition of some new ones.  

The weather was fair and mostly sunny in the morning and early 
afternoon, clouding up gradually by 3 pm and threatening thunderstorms 
by 5:30 pm.  The number of individuals is shown in the third column and 
the status compared to the nine previous counts is given in the 4th 
column.   Although  Black Swallowtails are often common, we only found 
one in the last afternoon.  Likewise, Tiger Swallowtails were absent, 
but we miss them more often than find them at this season.  All 
specimens obtained at other times of the season have been of Eastern 
Tiger Swallowtail, but someday we'll find a Canadian.  

Bronze Copper appears to be a declining species in eastern New York, but 
it persists in the Mohawk River floodplain. We don't always get it 
because of phenology, and this individual was fresh (my category =w1).  

ALMOST ALL hairstreaks were found in the Albany Pine Bush. Only the 
single Acadian Hairstreak was found at a different location.  Banded 
Hairstreaks were more numerous than in previous years and Edwards were 
much less common than usual.  Moreover, virtually all of the Banded 
Hairstreaks were worn to very worn and almost all the Edwards were 
extremely fresh. I categorize these as w3-w5 for the Banded and w0-w1 
for the Edwards.  

Karner Blue's (Melissa Blue) has had a relatively good year, due to the 
extensive snow cover this past winter.  We found over 60 in a 15 min 
search around the edge of an extensive lupine bed. Virtually all were 
males. 

Eastern Tailed Blue: Clovers of several species are super-abundant, but 
we never find many Tailed Blues.  Wonder why. It doesn't seem to be 
solely phenology.  The clover is there all season, but the blues aren't. 

Summer Azure (C. neglecta), treated here as a distinct species, was 
particularly numerous in the Pine Bush, and many were moderately worn.  
They were also common and quite worn there a month earlier, so this is 
seems to be a second brood.  Another puzzle to work out.  Seems too soon 
to have a second brood, so it might also be a prolonged flight period. 

Baltimore Checkerspots:  Real Estate agents must track this species. 
Virtually every Baltimore colony that we have found has been wiped out 
by housing development. Last year we found a thriving new colony, and it 
was still there this year, albeit not at full strength (10 individuals 
vs 50 last year).

American Lady: 12 individuals was a high count for this species which we 
sometimes miss on the count. 

Red Admiral:  Not surprisingly this was a high count.  Admirals were 
present throughout the day. About 2/3 were simply moving through, 
heading more or less northward.  Others were nectaring.  None seen 
mating. 

Browns:  I don't find identifying the Browns in the field at all easy.  
Some disappear. Some don't afford a good angle, and this year several 
were worn.  Sometimes the field marks don't jibe with the book. Using 
the field marks in Glassberg's book, I am confident that all identified 
were S.appalachia.  Others might have been either species, including one 
in a woodland where   S.eurydice has been found before.  

Almost all of the Little Wood Satyrs were in the Pine Bush.  
Surprisingly virtually none were found in the other habitats visited.

Erynnis spp.   One Mottled Duskywing was seen, compared to at least four 
seen a month earlier.  The host plant, New Jersey Tea (Ceanothus), is 
very common in the Pine Bush.  A second Duskywing that was extremely 
worn, was either a Juvenal's or Horace's.  Normally Juvenal's isn't even 
around in early June, but this individual was so worn that it could have 
been a surviving and late E. juvenalis.  Either species would be new for 
that count.

There were 40 species (second highest) and 958 individuals (4th 
highest).  However, since three species: Cabbage, Edwards Hairstreak, 
and European Skipper, often account for more than 75% of the 
individuals, we compare counts with and without those three species.  
Without them the individual count in 2001 was 574, the highest in this 
category. 

VISCHER FERRY  LIST	TENTH  COUNT	Total	2001
2001	July 4, 2001					Compare2001
	    Party hours on foot	13.6			with prior
	    Party hours by car	1.5		##	years
Papilio polyxenes	Black Swallowtail	1	
Papilio glaucus		Eastern Tiger Swallowtl	1	4th time
Pieris rapae		Cabbage White		310	Medium
Colias philodice	Clouded Sulphur		38	Typical
Colias eurytheme	Orange Sulphur		3	Low
Lycaena hyllus		Bronze Copper		1	5th time
Satyrium titus		Coral Hairstreak	10	Medium
Satyrium calanus	Banded Hairstreak	48	Highest
Satyrium edwardsii	Edwards Hairstreak	46	3rd lowest
Satyrium caryaevorum	Hickory Hairstreak	2	
Satyrium liparops	Striped Hairstreak	2	
Satyrium acadica	Acadian Hairstreak	1	
Lycaedes melissa	Karner Blue		67	2nd high
Everes comyntas	Eastern Tailed Blue		8	medium
Celastrina neglecta	Summer Azure		27	highest
Speyeria cybele		Great Spangled Fritily	16	3rd high
Phyciodes tharos	Pearl Crescent		2	low
Euphydryas phaeton	Baltimore Checkerspot	10	typical
Polygonia interogationisQuestion Mark		 4	highest
Polygonia comma		Eastern Comma		10	2nd high
Nymphalis antiopia	Mourning Cloak		1	
Vanessa virginiensis	American Lady		12	highest
Vanessa cardui		Painted Lady		4	2nd high
Vanessa atalanta	Red Admiral		137	highest
Limenitis arthemis	Red-spotted Purple	Dead	
Limenitis archippus	Viceroy	1	
Satyrodes appalachia	Appalachian Brown	7+3?	2nd high
Enodia anthedon		Northern Pearly Eye	2	
Megisto cymela		Little Wood Satyr	38	highest
Cercyonis pegala	Common Wood-Nymph	22	3rd high
Danaus plexippus	Monarch			none	
Epargyreus clarus	Silver-spotted Skipper	29	medium
Erynnis spp		Horace/Juvenal's Duskywing	1	FIRST
Erynnis martialis	Mottled Duskywing	1	3rd time
Ancyloxphya numitor	Least Skipper		4	typical
Thymelicus lineola	European Skipper	28	medium
			Hobomok Skipper		4	
Wallengrenia egeremet	Northern Broken Dash	5	3rd low
Pompeius verna		Little Glassywing	12	highest
Atrytone logan		Delaware Skipper	8	medium
Euphyes vestris		Dun Skipper		32	highest
			
	TOTAL SPECIES	40	2nd high
	TOTAL INDIVIDUALS	958	4th high
	Total - Cabb & Europe	620	3rd high
	Total-Cabb&Europe&Edwards	574	highest
	New Species in 2001	1	
	Cumulative species on count	60	

Michael Gochfeld --compiler

 
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From patfoley at csus.edu  Wed Jul 11 14:29:55 2001
From: patfoley at csus.edu (Patrick Foley)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:29:55 -0700
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <3B4C9B23.D789E083@csus.edu>

Martin,

Thanks to your use of the scientific name Spermophilus, we can recognize the
genus of ground squirrels rather than confuse your animals with the more
distantly related pocket gophers of the Geomyidae. Sometimes the utmost clarity
(given that the taxonomists may be having a war over some names -- consider the
new Jepson manual plant names in California) is obtained by giving scientific
and common names together with locality and distinguishing features.

As might often be said on this list, there is no need to burn anyone at the
stake for the use of scientific or common names. But if you want to communicate,
the more clarity, the better.

Patrick Foley
patfoley at csus.edu

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

> I was given yesterday a report done on nest predators of the ducks of an
> area on the open prairie.  A progress report done by a M.Sc. candidate.
> Used statistics to prove his arguments and named the egg eating mammals in
> Latin.
>
> One of them animals  we call locally The Gopher.  Now there are gophers and
> there are gophers.  According to the soon to be learned gentleman, the
> gopher that was eating the birds' eggs was Spermophilus franklinii - a bushy
> tailed beast with a gray face.  I was astonished that the gopher that I
> loved to hate and saw all the time running around on the open plains never
> looked gray-faced before and never appeared to have a bushy tail.  My
> gopher - the one I love to hate - in smart Latin talk is known as
> Spermophilus richardsonii.  In local argot that other one, Spermophilus
> franklinii, is known as The Grey Gopher.
>
> I like descriptive names like Mourning Dove named because of its plaintive
> cooing. Or Mourning Cloak Butterfly because its folded wing on a twig looks
> like a shroud.  Or rattlesnake.  It concentrates the mind.
>
> And so should it be with butterfly names.  They should describe and
> elucidate as well as be standardized.
>
> Martin Bailey,
>
> cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
> phone/fax   306 842-8936
>
> 102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
> Weyburn, SK., Canada.
> S4H 2X3
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Wed Jul 11 14:35:12 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:35:12 -0400
Subject: Nectar sources on the Vischer Ferry Cout
In-Reply-To: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor@swarovskioptik.com>
        "Re: correct + coras/peckius" (Jul 11, 11:58am)
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> 
	<008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<000b01c10a22$5ee64680$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <1010711143516.ZM6486@Gochfeld>

I keep tabs on the nectar sources used by each butterfly encountered. 
Sometimes it's tedious,but most of the time not.  In many places Common 
Milkweed (A. syriaca) is a wonderful attractant for butterflies, and 
once at Ward Pound Ridge (Westchester County, NY), Guy Tudor and I 
observed six skippers of five species, on a single Milkweed head. 

Dogbanes are likewise very attractive in some areas. Dogbane is abundant 
in the Mohawk floodplain and was beginning to flower. I have checked it 
hopefully year after year and found virtually nothing on it. This year 
there was one Red Admiral on Dogbane. 

On the first Lakehurst NJ, Count we had dozens of Hairstreaks nectaring 
on Milkweed, a phenomenon not repeated in subsequent years. 

On the Vischer Ferry Count last week, Common Milkweed was blooming 
profusely, and there were many Honeybees and some Bumblebees on them, 
but virtually NO butterflies AT ALL.

Various clovers, paricularly Red Clover is another popular nectar source
The single Bronze Copper was on White Clover (let me know if I need to 
provide the scientific name). Eastern Tailed Blues were on Red and 
Alsike Clovers. 

Most Red Admirals were just flying through, but 53 were nectaring 
including 1 on a Thirslte,8 on Red Clover and one on Dogbane 
(aforementioned).  However, 43 were on Canada Thistle (Cirsium arvense). 

Actually when I tallied the counts that I made,  65% of bees  counted 
(there were more, of course) were on Canada Thistle and 64% of butterfly 
records were on Canada Thistle. 

Interestingly virtually none of the skippers were on Canada Thistle, 
although I have often seen skippers and Cabbages on this species. 
Moreover, the next day in another yard, there were three species of 
Skippers on Canada Thistle, and Ladies and Great Spangled Fritillaries 
clearly preferred it to the Buddleia. 

Obviously I looked for patches of Canada Thistle to find the 
butterflies, so from a statistical view I over-sampled that source. But 
I also carefully checked EVERY one of the hundreds of milkweed plants 
and carefully checked MANY of the thousands of Dogbanes, and and covered 
many areas with clovers.  

This is not a novel observation for me.  I have often found that Canada 
Thistle is preferred during the few weeks that it is in bloom. 

Now for the problem.  As most of you know Canada Thistle is classified 
as a noxious weed.  Here is a sampling from the web: 
==================
Canada thistle is declared a "noxious weed" throughout the U.S. and has 
long  been recognized as a major agricultural pest, costing tens of 
millions of dollars in  direct crop losses annually and additional 
millions costs for control. Only recently   have the harmful impacts of 
Canada thistle to native species and natural ecosystems received notable 
attention. 


        HABITAT IN THE UNITED STATES: Canada thistle grows in barrens, 
glades,  meadows, prairies, fields, pastures, and waste places. It does 
best in disturbed  upland areas but also invades wet areas with 
fluctuating water levels such as streambank sedge meadows and wet 
prairies. 

BACKGROUND: Canada thistle was introduced to the United States, probably
by accident, in the early 1600s and, by 1954, had been declared a 
noxious weed in forty three states. In Canada and the U.S., it is 
considered one of the most tenacious and economically important 
agricultural weeds, but only in recent years has it been recognized as a 
problem in natural areas. 
==========================================================

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Wed Jul 11 14:38:41 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:38:41 -0400
Subject: An afterthought on Canada Thistle
In-Reply-To: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor@swarovskioptik.com>
        "Re: correct + coras/peckius" (Jul 11, 11:58am)
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> 
	<008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> 
	<000b01c10a22$5ee64680$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <1010711143845.ZM6486@Gochfeld>

I don't want to be declared a Thistle-lover. I remember the horror on 
the face of one of our botanists when she spied a Purple Loosestrife 
growing by our pond. 

Also, I am involved in a campaign to control invasive exotics (or at 
least recognize their hazards and halt their horticultural sale).

However, in my experience over the past 15 years, Canada Thistle both in 
Somerset, NJ and in the Vischer Ferry area, DOES NOT BEHAVE like an 
invasive weed.  It's stands are small and transient.  They expand 
quickly and then contract. Sometimes they disappear completely. 

Of course since neither of these areas has NATURAL GRASSLANDS, it may 
not matter what Canada Thistle does. But it is an impressive nectar 
source and I lament the fact that the small stand in our yard is down to 
one flower.  

Michael Gochfeld

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Wed Jul 11 15:36:50 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:36:50 -0400
Subject: diagnosis but no prognosis
References: <003401c108fb$339faac0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <001501c1093f$387584e0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> <008801c10980$e28adde0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <000b01c10a22$5ee64680$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <008501c10a40$d4ed7100$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>



Clay Taylor wrote
CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com

> Ron -
>     Fair enough.  After taking a few Excedrin, it all makes sense,
>
>     Seriously, though, an amateur like me has no possible way of knowing
> these facts, or even WHERE to look to find them.  I'm not a serious
> entomologist and never will be, but I'm a pretty good field observer that
> relies on material published for the masses for "correct" information
> (including both common and scientific names).
>
This is very true relative to there being a dearth of in-depth information
_readily_ available to the average butterflier.  My view is that it did not
use to be this way as little as 15 years ago. The Klots/Peterson Field
Guide is still very useful - not just a classic. The people who wrote (and
still write some of) the books on butterflies were great taxonomists,
students of evolution, biogeography etc. There were MANY mentors around
then too who did not live in academic ivory towers and were always
available - Paul Grey, C.F. dos Passos, Harry Clench, J.F.G. Clarke, F.
Thorne all now passed on and some like Mather (near blind) and  Ferris
(very retired) who are still with us. Lee Miller at the AME in Sarasota.

The great knowledge has not only died off, but it was down right ignored
and what was left has been rejected in recent years. Now we are reinventing
the wheel so to speak. And my opinion is that is just what some wanted.
Bring is a whole New World Order re butterflies - new methods, new
philosophy, new terms, new names/taxonomy, everything.  It has succeeded.
I and some of the other older ones who are still around see this as a
dumbed down version of what once was - we have lived under both economies.

When I was 10 and got my first books by Holland, Comstock, etc. There was
immediate education. Immediate science. At 17 we understood the systems
(took time out for courting) and at 25 were writing scientific papers. I
described Satyroides appalachia leeuwi in 1974. My coauthor (junior author)
had a PhD in entomology and worked for the USDA (still does) and I just a
High School diploma. But in butterflies, because of the depth of
information readily available to the rank and file then and the experts as
mentors, we were on the same level. Actually, as a taxonomist, I was on the
more knowledgable level.

>     I realize that the whole "Names" thread started out as a
> venting-of-frustration exercise (albeit a very public one), but for me
there
> were some interesting nuggets of information to be sifted out of the
> rhetoric (it took a LOT of sifting).
>
Yes, there is frustration and venting. And it is public as I feel the
masses have been duped into thinking that "this" is all there is. My
opinion is that they are being short changed all around - skeletal books
that could have been written by "anyone" 20 years ago experts who are not
yet such but are moving there etc. (There is no substitute for time in
service.)

>     That's why I subscribe to this list - to hear about what butterflies
> others are seeing across the country (a too-small percentage of the total
> messages), and to learn new stuff from people that know more about the
> subject than I do.   The grandstanding, snobbery, and intolerance that
seem
> to dominate the postings oftentimes make reading them quite tedious and
> frustrating.  Let's hear more field reports, and less arguing.
>
Me too. I have been surprised since joining less than a year ago at the
scarcity of field reports (like Marks) - or great accounts (like Mary
Beth's recent observations). The tug of wars here are revealing though -
they manifest a divide. A divide that 20 years ago was non existent. So who
changed? What happened?  Twenty years ago there was absolutely no
grandstanding (whose who now), snobbery (toward lepidopterists),
intolerance ( of collectors) and I will add - no competition (factional
organizational meetings scheduled against each other).

What happened? We had all been going to school together up through the
years and grades - all was well. Then this new  kid moved into the
neighborhood and came to our school, Leps High.  He is lots bigger than us
and he is a bully, his name is...
________________




It is not as important what name you or I would put there -- it is the fact
that a name would come immediately to anyone's mind and be put there. The
Leps world will never be what is once WAS till that type of thought pattern
is gone.

Ron


 
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From bmw60 at aol.com  Wed Jul 11 15:19:01 2001
From: bmw60 at aol.com (BMW60)
Date: 11 Jul 2001 19:19:01 GMT
Subject: Mercury Vapor off a car
Message-ID: <20010711151901.25192.00001051@ng-mp1.aol.com>

I purchased a converter from radio shack sometime back and it works fine with a
175mv unit.  Buy, the RENTAL car you are using may not have the power in the
cigarette lighter to do the job.  I had an alligator clip made so I could  run
directly off the battery to bypass this, with great results.  I'm not sure I
would want to run my personal vehicle all night, but in a pinch I would.   Good
Luck   Bill In Tucson

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From rworth at oda.state.or.us  Wed Jul 11 17:06:48 2001
From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:06:48 -0700
Subject: Lepidoptera Lexicography vs. Lepidoptera Lasciviousness
In-Reply-To: <20010710.211211.-325537.1.mbpi@juno.com>
References: <20010710.211211.-325537.1.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <v04220800b7726eee4f7d@[192.152.7.83]>

Hi MB,
I recall reading somewhere about gulf frits doing the same thing. 
The phenomenon was coined "pupal mating" I believe.  Actually, that 
would seem a bit of a misnomer, but it is documented nonetheless.
Happy butterfly ?@#$%*-watching,
Rich

>Hi there....
>
>While you guys all argue about "correct/scientific/common names," I'm
>going to interrupt with a thread of my own for all the bored-silly and
>silent gals out there who are hungry for more titillating conversation:
>Butterfly ***SEX***  (Okay, you guys can listen in if you are so
>inclined...)
>
>Yesterday, I was certain that the public outdoor butterfly exhibit that I
>monitor had sunk to the lowest depths of depravity...until today.  Chalk
>it off to a combination of overpopulation in a confined, contrived
>environment coupled with an insufferable humidity index...aberrant
>butterfly behavior is running wild in the pastoral confines of my
>ethereal butterfly "garden!"
>
>For some time, I've noticed that the male Zebra Longwings (and THEY know
>who they ARE, "correctly" speaking), have been routinely patrolling the
>hanging chrysalides of their sibling species in search of "near-eclosing"
>females...an opportunistic strategy employed by them, to mate with newly
>emerged "virgins" even before they've had the chance to spread their
>wings and fly (!)  An especially "hot" female will often have two or
>three randy males gripping her chrysalis in anticipation of emerging
>nirvana...  Only one "gets lucky."  I come into work at 7:00 a.m. and
>find the persistent, besotted males hooked up to their "intended" in
>connubial bliss, though I've never seen the actual "attack."  By the time
>I get there, the females' wings are completely inflated and dried, and a
>captive partner.
>
>Two days ago, things got bad...there was a dearth of  female Longwings,
>so the frustrated and frenzied males were patrolling and confiscating
>near-eclosing Queen butterflies (!)  They staked out their "brides" and
>gripped their chyrsalides for all they were worth...  I didn't know what
>to expect when I came in the next morning.
>
>What I found the next morning were a lot of newly eclosed Queens and one
>"successful?" Zebra Longwing who had managed to grasp the abdomen
>(albeit, in the "wrong place..") of a newly emerged Queen male, who was
>desperately trying to extricate himself AND pump up his underinflated
>wings at the same time.  The Zebra Longwing was oblivious to its "missing
>the mark," much less to having hooked up with the wrong species (!)  I
>tried to intervene for the sake of the male Queen, but the tenacity of
>the Zebra L. was more than a match for me.  I gave up and left them to
>their deluded depravity.
>
>If that wasn't bad enough, today I walked into the garden and found THREE
>male Zebras hooked up to ONE newly emerged female Zebra...talk about
>"group sex."   And to  top things off, I also discovered a male Zebra
>"necrophiliac" that had broken through the chrysalis of an unemerged
>female, and was "going to town" with her corpse...
>
>Are there "support groups" for individuals in my current line of work?!
>Someone suggested I needed to start one....  Instead, I'm reading a book
>about the racehorse, Seabiscuit, which takes my mind temporarily off the
>"winged beasts" (i.e. no sexual content).
>
>I shudder to think:  What next?!  Perhaps a black shroud over the tent
>with a sign stating:  Absolutely NO ONE under 17 admitted without a
>parent or guardian!
>
>M.B. Prondzinski
>The Depraved USA
>________________________________________________________________
>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
>Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

Richard A. Worth
Oregon Department of Agriculture
Plant Division
rworth at oda.state.or.us
(503) 986-6461

 
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From kbliss0568 at aol.com  Wed Jul 11 19:53:18 2001
From: kbliss0568 at aol.com (KBliss0568)
Date: 11 Jul 2001 23:53:18 GMT
Subject: Mercury Vapor off a car
References: <20010711151901.25192.00001051@ng-mp1.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010711195318.18420.00003797@ng-fl1.aol.com>

Thanks for all the info, Bill!  I received a few private emails in response to
my post, and was told basically the same thing by others who run their lights
this way.

I'm now looking at an 800 watt inverter, which needs to be connected directly
to the battery.  I'll connect the two using jumper cables, as one who's done it
suggested.

Ken Bliss

>I purchased a converter from radio shack >sometime back and it works fine with
a
>175mv unit.  Buy, the RENTAL car you are using may not have the power in the
>cigarette lighter to do the job.  I had an alligator clip made so I could
>run
>directly off the battery to bypass this, with great results.  I'm not sure I
>would want to run my personal vehicle all night, but in a pinch I would.
>Good
>Luck   Bill In Tucson
>



 
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From conlan at adnc.com  Wed Jul 11 23:53:03 2001
From: conlan at adnc.com (Chris Conlan)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:53:03 -0800
Subject: ???
Message-ID: <200107120417.VAA12599@barley.adnc.com>

No, I have not messed with the seal-a-meal bags but if you store fresh 
specimens in a zip-loc bag in the freezer they are mountable after thawing
for many years.  I have pulled stuff stored that way 7 or 8 years later and
it was mountable after about 15 minutes of thawing.  I suppose the
seal-a-meal would work just as well?

Chris

----------
From: sebrez at webtv.net
To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
Subject: ???
Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001, 3:26 AM


Anybody ever experiment with those seal-a-meal pouches to store
specimens until you have the time to mount them?



mail to: sebrez at webtv.net



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From MWalker at gensym.com  Thu Jul 12 03:18:05 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 03:18:05 -0400
Subject: Flutterbys and Fireflies - 7/10
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279D82@hqmail.gensym.com>

I flew into Chi-town on Tuesday, July 10, arriving at the
airport-of-tomorrow (aka Midway).  It's hard to fly from San Diego to
Chicago without arriving after the sun goes down, but I managed to arrive
and flee the airport in my rental car by 5:00 p.m. - with still a couple of
hours of sunshine to look forward to.  I had a long drive ahead of me -
enroute to Peoria - but I couldn't resist stopping to see what might still
be flying at this late hour.  The temperature was high - close to 90, with
over 90% humidity, so the bushwhacking was a bit tedious - the biting bugs
and shredding brambles making this even worse.  At first, the bugs were few
and far between.  The only hairstreak flying was Satyrium edwarsii
(nevertheless, a treat).  An occasional Pieris rapae, a worn Speyeria
cybele, Vanessa atalanta and Polygonia interrogationis - that was about it.
But as the sun began to set lower on the horizon, an amazing thing occurred.
The Satyr's came out to dance!

July 10 - Willow Springs, Cook County

By 7:00 p.m., the numbers of Satyr's prancing about the grasses and dark
shadows of the forest canopy were incredible.  The most common was Megisto
cymela (Little Wood Satyr), with several individuals flopping along in every
square meter.  These would occasionally bump into the less common, but still
numerous Cercyonis pegala (Common Wood Nymph).  The C. pegala could also be
readily spooked out of the tall grasses that thrived in the open areas just
outside the forest edge.  I am certain that it is these bugs, and not
dyslexia, that should be credited for the coining of "flutterby".  Also
common were the Enodia anthedon (Northern Pearly Eye) - which fancied
darting all around the woods in between short periods of rest on tree
trunks.  The whole episode reminded me of something out of Fantasia - "Early
Evening Dance of the Wood Satyrs".  Of course, this title better conjures
images of cutie little tinkerbells prancing and spewing their goofy dust
(hey, I'm on business travel - I can't control these things).

It's this sort of experience that makes my life as rich as it is - well,
experiences like this PLUS my wife and children.

As the sun made it's last hoorah, the leps were still on the wing -
apparently content to wait it out for their chummy and busy-body cousins,
the fireflies.  It's been awhile since I enjoyed the company of fireflies.
An amazing piece of creation, IMHO.  A delight for young and old.  A delight
for the idiot wandering in the woods after dark.  It was these that pulled
me out of my inner forest trance and guided me safely back to the rental
car.

My list:

Papilio polyxenes (Black Swallowtail)
Peiris rapae (Cabbage White)
Satyrium edwardsii (Edward's Hairstreak)
Speyeria cybele (Great Spangled Fritillary)
Chlosyne necteis (Silvery Checkerspot)
Phyciodes tharos (Pearl Crescentspot)
Polygonia interrogationis (Question Mark)
Vanessa cardui (Painted Lady)
Vanessa atalanta (Red Admiral)
Enodia anthedon (Northern Pearly Eye)
Megisto cymela (Little Wood Satyr)
Cercyonis pegala (Common Wood Nymph)
Danaus plexippus (Monarch)
Anatrytone logan (Delaware Skipper)


Mark Walker
visiting a large caterpillar in Peoria, IL

 
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From herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net  Thu Jul 12 09:18:21 2001
From: herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net (herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:18:21 -0500
Subject: Problema
Message-ID: <3B4D5D4D.1223.CB614C3@localhost>

Perfect genus name. All the skipper genera should have been so 
profound. Ahem.

Here is the question. I am a new Leper (this is what my Odonate 
watching friends refer to it as). And that is a long story. But I have 
been running up a species list for a local Wildlife Management 
Area that is in North Central Arkansas at less than 500 feet. 
Basically it includes the woodlands and slight rolling hills 
surrounding a large Cypress Swamp. I have discovered a large 
local group of Speyeria diana that is a pure pleasure (and what, 
pray tell, are they doing in a Cypress Swamp?). But also in a small 
cut clearing along a trail there I have discovered a cluster of 
Problema byssus (Byssus Skipper). Lovely little gals as Skippers 
go. And I have seen nothing but females according to the various 
guides. But what they do is in the late afternoon all the Problema 
ladies perch up in this clearing upon small Hickory saplings less 
than 3 feet tall and fold those wings open. They all align 
themselves with their backs directed toward the dropping sun. 
There are four or five saplings and usually four or five Skippers all 
facing the same direction. They look like orange and black fighter 
jets awaiting instructions. Once in position they become invader 
detectors and if a grasshopper or a Widow Skimmer or a Common 
Whitetail dragonfly has the unadulterated boldness to fly into the 
Skipper sunning area then first one and then all of the Skippers 
give chase up to the edge of the clearing and then swirl around 
madly after each other and then take up their ready positions for 
the next run. These things have made me fold over laughing with 
this craziness. And again, they appear to be all females. What in 
the hell is up with these Problemas?


				Herschel Raney
				Conway, Arkansas

 
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From jshuey at tnc.org  Thu Jul 12 09:28:54 2001
From: jshuey at tnc.org (John Shuey)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:28:54 -0500
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <3B4DA616.2F1788F@tnc.org>

Interestingly,  I wouldn't know what a grey gopher was if one hit me with a
stick - But S. franklinii, commonly known to us (here in Indiana and the Midwest
in general) is Franklin's Ground Squirrel, a state endangered species that we
actually manage for at a couple of sites.   And yes they love to eat duck eggs -
another attribute I admire.

Common names suck-

John
____
John Shuey
Director of Conservation Science
Indiana Office of The Nature Conservancy
1505 N Delaware Street, Suite 200
Indianapolis, IN 46202

phone:  317-951-8818
fax:  317-917-2478
email:  Jshuey at tnc.org


cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

> I was given yesterday a report done on nest predators of the ducks of an
> area on the open prairie.  A progress report done by a M.Sc. candidate.
> Used statistics to prove his arguments and named the egg eating mammals in
> Latin.
>
> One of them animals  we call locally The Gopher.  Now there are gophers and
> there are gophers.  According to the soon to be learned gentleman, the
> gopher that was eating the birds' eggs was Spermophilus franklinii - a bushy
> tailed beast with a gray face.  I was astonished that the gopher that I
> loved to hate and saw all the time running around on the open plains never
> looked gray-faced before and never appeared to have a bushy tail.  My
> gopher - the one I love to hate - in smart Latin talk is known as
> Spermophilus richardsonii.  In local argot that other one, Spermophilus
> franklinii, is known as The Grey Gopher.
>
> I like descriptive names like Mourning Dove named because of its plaintive
> cooing. Or Mourning Cloak Butterfly because its folded wing on a twig looks
> like a shroud.  Or rattlesnake.  It concentrates the mind.
>
> And so should it be with butterfly names.  They should describe and
> elucidate as well as be standardized.
>
> Martin Bailey,
>
> cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
> phone/fax   306 842-8936
>
> 102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
> Weyburn, SK., Canada.
> S4H 2X3
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

--


 
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From jshuey at tnc.org  Thu Jul 12 10:40:24 2001
From: jshuey at tnc.org (John Shuey)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:40:24 -0500
Subject: Problema
References: <3B4D5D4D.1223.CB614C3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3B4DB6D8.5CF2CB87@tnc.org>

Problema - It really sounds like your females are really males.  If so,
the no problema.  If they are indeed females, then the behavior is indeed
perplexing.

John

herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net wrote:

> Perfect genus name. All the skipper genera should have been so
> profound. Ahem.
>
> Here is the question. I am a new Leper (this is what my Odonate
> watching friends refer to it as). And that is a long story. But I have
> been running up a species list for a local Wildlife Management
> Area that is in North Central Arkansas at less than 500 feet.
> Basically it includes the woodlands and slight rolling hills
> surrounding a large Cypress Swamp. I have discovered a large
> local group of Speyeria diana that is a pure pleasure (and what,
> pray tell, are they doing in a Cypress Swamp?). But also in a small
> cut clearing along a trail there I have discovered a cluster of
> Problema byssus (Byssus Skipper). Lovely little gals as Skippers
> go. And I have seen nothing but females according to the various
> guides. But what they do is in the late afternoon all the Problema
> ladies perch up in this clearing upon small Hickory saplings less
> than 3 feet tall and fold those wings open. They all align
> themselves with their backs directed toward the dropping sun.
> There are four or five saplings and usually four or five Skippers all
> facing the same direction. They look like orange and black fighter
> jets awaiting instructions. Once in position they become invader
> detectors and if a grasshopper or a Widow Skimmer or a Common
> Whitetail dragonfly has the unadulterated boldness to fly into the
> Skipper sunning area then first one and then all of the Skippers
> give chase up to the edge of the clearing and then swirl around
> madly after each other and then take up their ready positions for
> the next run. These things have made me fold over laughing with
> this craziness. And again, they appear to be all females. What in
> the hell is up with these Problemas?
>
>                                 Herschel Raney
>                                 Conway, Arkansas
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

-


 
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Jul 12 11:10:54 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:10:54 -0600
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123> <3B4DA616.2F1788F@tnc.org>
Message-ID: <002501c10ae6$31f6d3a0$e863a58e@allez123>

Probably the same thing.  But that isn't the problem.  Did they, the student
and his advisor, see what they named it to be, or were they looking at S.
richardsonii which is what one would more commonly associate with the area
of their study and not the one that hangs around their university which
borders on a different ecological zone.

I guess that I will have to get in touch with them.  Either they or I will
learn something new.

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3

P.S. Franklin's ground squirrel was named after Captain John Franklin of the
British Royal Navy.
        Lieutenant Richardson collected Richardson's ground squirrel at the
same place as did his boss, Captain Franklin -                 Carlton
House, SK.
        Carlton House is at the "border" of the grasslands and the poplar
and aspen bluffs.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Shuey" <jshuey at tnc.org>
To: "leps" <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: And what is in a name?


> Interestingly,  I wouldn't know what a grey gopher was if one hit me with
a
> stick - But S. franklinii, commonly known to us (here in Indiana and the
Midwest
> in general) is Franklin's Ground Squirrel, a state endangered species that
we
> actually manage for at a couple of sites.   And yes they love to eat duck
eggs -
> another attribute I admire.
>
> Common names suck-
>
> John
> ____
> John Shuey
> Director of Conservation Science
> Indiana Office of The Nature Conservancy
> 1505 N Delaware Street, Suite 200
> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>
> phone:  317-951-8818
> fax:  317-917-2478
> email:  Jshuey at tnc.org
>
>
> cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> > I was given yesterday a report done on nest predators of the ducks of an
> > area on the open prairie.  A progress report done by a M.Sc. candidate.
> > Used statistics to prove his arguments and named the egg eating mammals
in
> > Latin.
> >
> > One of them animals  we call locally The Gopher.  Now there are gophers
and
> > there are gophers.  According to the soon to be learned gentleman, the
> > gopher that was eating the birds' eggs was Spermophilus franklinii - a
bushy
> > tailed beast with a gray face.  I was astonished that the gopher that I
> > loved to hate and saw all the time running around on the open plains
never
> > looked gray-faced before and never appeared to have a bushy tail.  My
> > gopher - the one I love to hate - in smart Latin talk is known as
> > Spermophilus richardsonii.  In local argot that other one, Spermophilus
> > franklinii, is known as The Grey Gopher.
> >
> > I like descriptive names like Mourning Dove named because of its
plaintive
> > cooing. Or Mourning Cloak Butterfly because its folded wing on a twig
looks
> > like a shroud.  Or rattlesnake.  It concentrates the mind.
> >
> > And so should it be with butterfly names.  They should describe and
> > elucidate as well as be standardized.
> >
> > Martin Bailey,
> >
> > cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
> > phone/fax   306 842-8936
> >
> > 102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
> > Weyburn, SK., Canada.
> > S4H 2X3
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
>
> --
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
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From Leptraps at aol.com  Thu Jul 12 11:56:45 2001
From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:56:45 EDT
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <104.5fac013.287f22bd@aol.com>

In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there, however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late Howard Cosell, was not there either.

MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean? 

Cheers,

Leroy Koehn
Georgetown, KY



 
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From KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us  Thu Jul 12 12:06:28 2001
From: KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us (Kelly Richers)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:06:28 -0700
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <sb4d68a8.034@209.165.33.133>

I suspect it means you have too much time on your hands, Leroy!  Kelly

>>> <Leptraps at aol.com> 07/12/01 08:56AM >>>
In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there, however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late Howard Cosell, was not there either.

MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean? 

Cheers,

Leroy Koehn
Georgetown, KY




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From TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us  Thu Jul 12 12:43:53 2001
From: TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us (Tiser, Gene M)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:43:53 -0500
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY>

I believe you have discovered the terrible truth that lepidopteran studies
are considered an addictive disease, hence the name lepers for its
practitioners!  Thus, those that come down with this affliction need to be
quarantined in special leper colonies lest they infect the rest of the
population.

Of course, we could be called leperchauns (deliberate misspelling) which is
defined as a fairy who can reveal hidden treasure.  The hidden treasure, of
course, is knowledge of, and about, these delightful fellow earthlings......

Gene Tiser
Education Coordinator
NE Region Hdqtrs
PO Box 10448
1125 N. Military Ave.
Green Bay, WI  54307-0448

phone: (920) 492-5836
fax:      (920) 492-5913
tiserg at dnr.state.wi.us

> ----------
> From: 	Leptraps at aol.com[SMTP:Leptraps at aol.com]
> Reply To: 	Leptraps at aol.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:56 AM
> To: 	LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
> Subject: 	RE: A Leper?
> 
> In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to
> visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there,
> however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the
> disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster
> Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late
> Howard Cosell, was not there either.
> 
> MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean? 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Leroy Koehn
> Georgetown, KY
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  
> 

 
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From herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net  Thu Jul 12 13:10:41 2001
From: herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net (herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:10:41 -0500
Subject: Problema
In-Reply-To: <3B4DB6D8.5CF2CB87@tnc.org>
Message-ID: <3B4D93C1.29359.124D00@localhost>

Problema - It really sounds like your females are really males. 
If so, then no problema.  If they are indeed females, then the 
behavior is indeed perplexing.

John


Well, I had decided that these must be male Problemas by 
behavior. And then this would mean that Glassberg's photos for the 
Byssus were, well, misleading. But looking again just to make 
absolutely sure, I have now discovered that the photos in 
Glassberg for the Florida form of the Byssus are very different from 
the shots for the western form. The difficulty was, I suppose, that I 
am in Arkansas and had presumed that though my county is 
completely out of Glassberg's range for any of the byssus forms we 
would more likely have the western form and not the Atlantic coast 
form in our little satellite. Since the photos I took look exactly like 
the males of the Florida form and their behavior is male-ish I am 
concluding that in the middle of Arkansas, near a Cypress Swamp 
we have been blessed with a subpopulation of the Eastern form of 
Problema byssus. And thus they are all males. Meaning that I have 
seen all males except for one and when I saw her, I didn't know 
what she was. I now see she is an Eastern form byssus female.

(Would be happy to send you a shot, Mister Shuey, of a male for 
your helpful comments.)

				Herschel Raney
				Conway Arkansas

 
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From herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net  Thu Jul 12 13:14:09 2001
From: herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net (herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:14:09 -0500
Subject: A Leper?
In-Reply-To: <104.5fac013.287f22bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B4D9491.23211.157ADB@localhost>

I believe that the actual moniker absurdus (shall we say) stems 
from the playful friction between Oders and Lepers. The first 
supposing that anyone who would waist time chasing after 
butterflies when they could be watching Odonates must surely 
have a disease which should be reflected in their naming.

I'm happy to have both diseases.


				Herschel

 
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From jshuey at tnc.org  Thu Jul 12 12:49:32 2001
From: jshuey at tnc.org (John Shuey)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:49:32 -0500
Subject: A Leper?
References: <104.5fac013.287f22bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B4DD51C.76C37FBD@tnc.org>

It strikes me as odd that a guy who is a self-proclaimed "Master"  "Baiter" (i.e., really good with a bait trap) took the time to look up Leper.

Persona Juan

Leptraps at aol.com wrote:

> In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there, however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late Howard Cosell, was not there either.
>
> MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Leroy Koehn
> Georgetown, KY
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 12 13:18:40 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:18:40 -0400
Subject: Problema
References: <3B4D5D4D.1223.CB614C3@localhost>
Message-ID: <000801c10af6$b2347760$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Hi Herschel
As John said, these will not be females. But let me ask a couple questions.
Are they light colored on the underside or are they a dark rust color with
a faint band? P. byssus byssus males are very light beneath and the females
very dark. Do you have a picture you could post? I am not real familiar
with the Arkansas, but am familiar with all the skippers in North America.
If you do not know Dr. Mack Shotts in Paragould I suggest you look him up
as he is a long time Arkansas lepidopterist and would be a local "expert".
I don't have much in the way of the new "guides". Which are you consulting?
In the Audubon guide the female ventral photo is correct. The pseudo dorsal
shot is 99% a misidentification. Female byssus do not have anywhere near
that much fulvous on the apex of their forewings and do not have fulvous
along the FW costal margin - not even in subspecies kumskaka. That photo
looks 210% like a female Atrytone logan (Delaware Skipper).

For your area of the US I would have the following books. First and
foremost would be the old Klots/Peterson Field Guide. This book is still
head, shoulders and waist above the new "guides". Next would be The
Butterflies and Moths of Missouri by Heitzman, Missouri Dept of
Conservation, Jefferson City, MO.  After those The Butterflies of Georgia
by Harris, U. of Oklahoma press. If you had these you would rarely open the
new ones.

Ron Gatrelle

----- Original Message -----
From: <herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 9:18 AM
Subject: Problema


> Perfect genus name. All the skipper genera should have been so
> profound. Ahem.
>
> Here is the question. I am a new Leper (this is what my Odonate
> watching friends refer to it as). And that is a long story. But I have
> been running up a species list for a local Wildlife Management
> Area that is in North Central Arkansas at less than 500 feet.
> Basically it includes the woodlands and slight rolling hills
> surrounding a large Cypress Swamp. I have discovered a large
> local group of Speyeria diana that is a pure pleasure (and what,
> pray tell, are they doing in a Cypress Swamp?). But also in a small
> cut clearing along a trail there I have discovered a cluster of
> Problema byssus (Byssus Skipper). Lovely little gals as Skippers
> go. And I have seen nothing but females according to the various
> guides. But what they do is in the late afternoon all the Problema
> ladies perch up in this clearing upon small Hickory saplings less
> than 3 feet tall and fold those wings open. They all align
> themselves with their backs directed toward the dropping sun.
> There are four or five saplings and usually four or five Skippers all
> facing the same direction. They look like orange and black fighter
> jets awaiting instructions. Once in position they become invader
> detectors and if a grasshopper or a Widow Skimmer or a Common
> Whitetail dragonfly has the unadulterated boldness to fly into the
> Skipper sunning area then first one and then all of the Skippers
> give chase up to the edge of the clearing and then swirl around
> madly after each other and then take up their ready positions for
> the next run. These things have made me fold over laughing with
> this craziness. And again, they appear to be all females. What in
> the hell is up with these Problemas?
>
>
> Herschel Raney
> Conway, Arkansas
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Thu Jul 12 13:16:26 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:16:26 -0400
Subject: A Leper?
References: <104.5fac013.287f22bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c10af6$63ff68c0$bf8a0a3f@1swch01>

I think our new lepper needs one more "p" in the word. I personally am
thankful for the double-p.

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: <Leptraps at aol.com>
To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: A Leper?


> In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to
visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there, however,
it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the disease,
Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster Dictionary. I also
looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late Howard Cosell, was not
there either.
>
> MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Leroy Koehn
> Georgetown, KY
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From 1_iron at msn.com  Thu Jul 12 13:18:46 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:18:46 -0400
Subject: A Leper?
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY>
Message-ID: <001b01c10af6$b86d7be0$bf8a0a3f@1swch01>

Please, let's not begin referring to those with our hobby/occupation as
"fairies" - my neighbors think I'm a little strange because I put out a UV
on occasion.

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tiser, Gene M" <TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us>
To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>; <Leptraps at aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: A Leper?


> I believe you have discovered the terrible truth that lepidopteran studies
> are considered an addictive disease, hence the name lepers for its
> practitioners!  Thus, those that come down with this affliction need to be
> quarantined in special leper colonies lest they infect the rest of the
> population.
>
> Of course, we could be called leperchauns (deliberate misspelling) which
is
> defined as a fairy who can reveal hidden treasure.  The hidden treasure,
of
> course, is knowledge of, and about, these delightful fellow
earthlings......
>
> Gene Tiser
> Education Coordinator
> NE Region Hdqtrs
> PO Box 10448
> 1125 N. Military Ave.
> Green Bay, WI  54307-0448
>
> phone: (920) 492-5836
> fax:      (920) 492-5913
> tiserg at dnr.state.wi.us
>
> > ----------
> > From: Leptraps at aol.com[SMTP:Leptraps at aol.com]
> > Reply To: Leptraps at aol.com
> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:56 AM
> > To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject: RE: A Leper?
> >
> > In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to
> > visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there,
> > however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the
> > disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster
> > Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late
> > Howard Cosell, was not there either.
> >
> > MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Leroy Koehn
> > Georgetown, KY
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
> >
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Thu Jul 12 13:29:57 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:29:57 -0400
Subject: A Leper?
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY>
Message-ID: <004b01c10af8$460849c0$7c245b0c@s0022921733>

All -

   More than once, while chasing leps and / or odes with my net, I have been
called a "fairy" by passers-by in pickup trucks, but I don't think they were
referring to my finding a breakfast of Lucky Charms.

    To set the record straight, butterflying is not an addiction, it's an
incurable blood disease.  You might go into remission, but sooner or later
you suffer a relapse and hit the fields again (hopefully sooner than later).

Clay Taylor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tiser, Gene M" <TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us>
To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>; <Leptraps at aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: A Leper?


> I believe you have discovered the terrible truth that lepidopteran studies
> are considered an addictive disease, hence the name lepers for its
> practitioners!  Thus, those that come down with this affliction need to be
> quarantined in special leper colonies lest they infect the rest of the
> population.
>
> Of course, we could be called leperchauns (deliberate misspelling) which
is
> defined as a fairy who can reveal hidden treasure.  The hidden treasure,
of
> course, is knowledge of, and about, these delightful fellow
earthlings......
>
> Gene Tiser
> Education Coordinator
> NE Region Hdqtrs
> PO Box 10448
> 1125 N. Military Ave.
> Green Bay, WI  54307-0448
>
> phone: (920) 492-5836
> fax:      (920) 492-5913
> tiserg at dnr.state.wi.us
>
> > ----------
> > From: Leptraps at aol.com[SMTP:Leptraps at aol.com]
> > Reply To: Leptraps at aol.com
> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:56 AM
> > To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject: RE: A Leper?
> >
> > In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to
> > visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there,
> > however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the
> > disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster
> > Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late
> > Howard Cosell, was not there either.
> >
> > MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Leroy Koehn
> > Georgetown, KY
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
> >
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 12 13:39:43 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:39:43 -0400
Subject: Problema
References: <3B4D93C1.29359.124D00@localhost>
Message-ID: <000d01c10af9$a36193a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: <herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net>
To: "John Shuey" <jshuey at tnc.org>
Cc: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; "ehaley" <ehaley at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>;
"Michael Warriner" <MichaelW at arkansasheritage.org>; "Don Simons"
<mutantnnn at hotmail.com>; "Lori Spencer" <spencer_lori at hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Problema


> Problema - It really sounds like your females are really males.
> If so, then no problema.  If they are indeed females, then the
> behavior is indeed perplexing.
>
> John
>
>
> Well, I had decided that these must be male Problemas by
> behavior. And then this would mean that Glassberg's photos for the
> Byssus were, well, misleading.

True


But looking again just to make
> absolutely sure, I have now discovered that the photos in
> Glassberg for the Florida form of the Byssus are very different from
> the shots for the western form. The difficulty was, I suppose, that I
> am in Arkansas and had presumed that though my county is
> completely out of Glassberg's range for any of the byssus forms we

There are no byssus "forms". There are two extremely evolutionally distinct
and of equal rank subspecies - byssus byssus and byssus kumskaka. There is
absolutely nothing sub (less) about subspecies. The only reason it is
called byssus skipper (Bunchgrass Skipper) is because humans discovered
this first and not the prairie segregate - otherwise we would be calling it
the kumskaka skipper or (Prairie Golden Skipper) The biogeographical area
you are in is part of the "eastern" fauna.

The Cypress, diana, byssus etc. are all indicators of your eastern fauna.
The key lies in the geological history of the Ozark Plateau and surrounding
region. You sound like a serious "student" of nature. Thus, I return to my
previous suggestion that you get some books written by "lepidopterists" who
also have a more in depth approach.

> would more likely have the western form and not the Atlantic coast
> form in our little satellite. Since the photos I took look exactly like
> the males of the Florida form and their behavior is male-ish I am
> concluding that in the middle of Arkansas, near a Cypress Swamp
> we have been blessed with a subpopulation of the Eastern form of
> Problema byssus. And thus they are all males. Meaning that I have
> seen all males except for one and when I saw her, I didn't know
> what she was. I now see she is an Eastern form byssus female.
>

I am always available to help anyone with North American butterfly &
skipper IDs as long as the load is not too heavy.  By the way, your S.
diana discovery is VERY exciting - multi congratulations.

My very best to you.
Ron
http://tils-ttr.org


 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Thu Jul 12 11:09:24 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:09:24 +0100
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123> <3B4DA616.2F1788F@tnc.org>
Message-ID: <3B4DBDA4.5BFA0B65@anu.ie>

John Shuey wrote:
> 
> Interestingly,  I wouldn't know what a grey gopher was if one hit me with a
> stick - But S. franklinii, commonly known to us (here in Indiana and the Midwest
> in general) is Franklin's Ground Squirrel, a state endangered species that we
> actually manage for at a couple of sites.   And yes they love to eat duck eggs -
> another attribute I admire.
> 
> Common names suck-
> 
> John
> ____
> John Shuey
> Director of Conservation Science
>
ah yes, gophers.
My grandfather, Frederick Frieseke, the painter, did a little memoir of
his childhood in Florida, lavishly illustrated. And my brother edited it
lately for publication, and wisely gave it to me for proofreading.
It fell to my lot to inform Nick, which he had not known, that in
Florida (1890) a gopher is a tortoise. A salamander, on the other hand,
is a gopher. If you follow me ... 
I am happy that this list has decided to use both scientific and
vernacular names; the former for clarity, the second for accessibility
to the handicapped, who are afraid of hard things and long words. 
Ah, the first butterfly for a week fluttered by ... Banog uaine .. a
green-veined white, Pieris napi. See how easy that was? But, if I had
stopped with the first name, in Irish, how frustrated most of you would
have been. 
As for "correct names" ... Ron has it easy. I was christened Anna Maria;
Catholics did it in Latin. My husband thinks my name is Mrs John Hillis.
The bank likes Anne Hillis, and you all know me as Anne Kilmer, my
maiden and professional name.
 It ain't hard to use both names and, with the mutability of scientific
names, at the mercy of lumpers and splitters, it's as well to do so. I
have my grandmother's butterfly book, from New Jersey, and once, looking
up a bug, I couldn't help noticing that I recognized neither common nor
scientific names for a lot of the critters. 
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland and South Florida
I heard the old men say, "everything changes and one by one we pass
away."


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 12 14:02:19 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:02:19 -0400
Subject: A Leper?
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY> <004b01c10af8$460849c0$7c245b0c@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <002e01c10afc$cb8df8c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com>
Subject: Re: A Leper?


> All -
>
>    More than once, while chasing leps and / or odes with my net, I have
been
> called a "fairy" by passers-by in pickup trucks, but I don't think they
were
> referring to my finding a breakfast of Lucky Charms.
>

My net has a long collapsible extension. The shaft is of such width that a
shot gun shell would fit comfortably. In my more sinister dreams I have
often wanted to convert the lower part of my net handle to a sawed off shot
gun - just for the pickup truck crowd - esp. those who like to throw their
beer bottles at ya.  I must say thought, that this Leper or Lepper thread
as aroused a lot of interest.

Ron


 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Thu Jul 12 14:20:53 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:20:53 -0700
Subject: A Leper?
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY> <001b01c10af6$b86d7be0$bf8a0a3f@1swch01>
Message-ID: <3B4DEA85.85BEB665@theriver.com>

OK - for historical purposes here is my take on the origin of
lepers/leppers.  I MAY have been the first one to use that term, at
least on the internet.  
At the behest of several friends, more than a few years back, I started
the original Leps mail list.  One of my first posts began "Dear Lepers",
influenced by the fact that I had been used to using the expression
"birders" (which, Leroy, probably is in the dictionary by now).  I
immediately got a reply from, I believe, Fred Heath - who pointed out
the connection to leperosy and said I should add use "leppers" instead.
-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Thu Jul 12 14:47:42 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:47:42 -0400
Subject: A Leper? armed and dangerous
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY> <004b01c10af8$460849c0$7c245b0c@s0022921733> <002e01c10afc$cb8df8c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c10b03$229545a0$7c245b0c@s0022921733>

Ron -

    Actually, the early ornithologists got it right - the "cane gun".

     Most of the time it was a sturdy, functional walking stick, but you
never knew when a new bird species would show up in a backyard or while
taking a brisk walk around the block.  "Egad - what IS that little bird?  I
have never seen one like it before!"   At that point the "walking stick"
spouted fire and lead shot, and another museum specimen hit the ground.

    Now they are treasured by gun collectors, not bird collectors.

Clay Taylor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com>; "Leps-l"
<Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: A Leper?


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com>
> Subject: Re: A Leper?
>
>
> > All -
> >
> >    More than once, while chasing leps and / or odes with my net, I have
> been
> > called a "fairy" by passers-by in pickup trucks, but I don't think they
> were
> > referring to my finding a breakfast of Lucky Charms.
> >
>
> My net has a long collapsible extension. The shaft is of such width that a
> shot gun shell would fit comfortably. In my more sinister dreams I have
> often wanted to convert the lower part of my net handle to a sawed off
shot
> gun - just for the pickup truck crowd - esp. those who like to throw their
> beer bottles at ya.  I must say thought, that this Leper or Lepper thread
> as aroused a lot of interest.
>
> Ron
>


 
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From Leptraps at aol.com  Thu Jul 12 14:54:33 2001
From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:54:33 EDT
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <23.e415eb9.287f4c69@aol.com>

Wait a minute! Oders and Lepers. Or are you saying the the Oders of Lepers stink?

Holding my nose to that stench!

Leroy C. KoehnGeorgetown, KY

 
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From Leptraps at aol.com  Thu Jul 12 15:01:29 2001
From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:01:29 EDT
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <9a.16e91132.287f4e09@aol.com>

John Shuey wrote:

It strikes me as odd that a guy who is a self-proclaimed "Master"  "Baiter" (i.e., really good with a bait trap) took the time to look up Leper.

You ask for this!

As a world class master baiter, I always have my hands full! Or you can take matters into your own hands!

Cheers (With a smile and tongue in cheek),

Leroy

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 12 15:24:37 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:24:37 -0400
Subject: A Leper? armed and dangerous
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY> <004b01c10af8$460849c0$7c245b0c@s0022921733> <002e01c10afc$cb8df8c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <007b01c10b03$229545a0$7c245b0c@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <000501c10b08$4af1f7a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com>
Subject: Re: A Leper? armed and dangerous


> Ron -
>
>     Actually, the early ornithologists got it right - the "cane gun".
>
>      Most of the time it was a sturdy, functional walking stick, but you
> never knew when a new bird species would show up in a backyard or while
> taking a brisk walk around the block.  "Egad - what IS that little bird?
I
> have never seen one like it before!"   At that point the "walking stick"
> spouted fire and lead shot, and another museum specimen hit the ground.
>
>     Now they are treasured by gun collectors, not bird collectors.
>
> Clay Taylor


Ya know, I had forgotten all about those!  Perhaps Bio-Quip might re-issue
them - along side the Park Specials?  Ronnie, bonnie, bobonnie


 
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From jhimmel at connix.com  Thu Jul 12 19:23:00 2001
From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:23:00 -0400
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <004e01c10b29$98ce34e0$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel>

Let's add to this discussion the term applied to those who watch moths - are
they mothers?  I generally add an apostrophe making it moth'ers, to avoid
confusion with me' dear ol' mum.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT USA
jhimmel at connix.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Visit my websites at:
http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
www.ctamphibians.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
-----Original Message-----
From: Leptraps at aol.com <Leptraps at aol.com>
To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Date: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: A Leper?


>In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to visit
my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there, however, it
has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the disease,
Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster Dictionary. I also
looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late Howard Cosell, was not
there either.
>
>MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Leroy Koehn
>Georgetown, KY
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
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From jrlyons at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul 12 19:31:41 2001
From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:31:41 -0500
Subject: A Leper?
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY> <001b01c10af6$b86d7be0$bf8a0a3f@1swch01>
Message-ID: <3B4E335D.685C6299@bellsouth.net>

 In her book "Four Wings and a Prayer," Sue Halpern
 relates an incident while gathering monarchs with Bill
Calvert (for weighing)  in the mountains of Mexico.
A young bicyclist passed and turned around to see
what they were doing.  Ms. Halpern tried to explain
things, while not speaking much of the native language:
"Mariposa, mariposa" with a nice smile.  The young
fellow finally rode off.  Sue was pretty pleased with
herself for getting rid of him, but Bill remarked, drily:
"You'd better hope he doesn't come back, you just
called him a faggot."

1_iron wrote:

> Please, let's not begin referring to those with our hobby/occupation as
> "fairies" - my neighbors think I'm a little strange because I put out a UV
> on occasion.
>
> Jim Taylor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tiser, Gene M" <TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us>
> To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>; <Leptraps at aol.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 12:43 PM
> Subject: RE: A Leper?
>
> > I believe you have discovered the terrible truth that lepidopteran studies
> > are considered an addictive disease, hence the name lepers for its
> > practitioners!  Thus, those that come down with this affliction need to be
> > quarantined in special leper colonies lest they infect the rest of the
> > population.
> >
> > Of course, we could be called leperchauns (deliberate misspelling) which
> is
> > defined as a fairy who can reveal hidden treasure.  The hidden treasure,
> of
> > course, is knowledge of, and about, these delightful fellow
> earthlings......
> >
> > Gene Tiser
> > Education Coordinator
> > NE Region Hdqtrs
> > PO Box 10448
> > 1125 N. Military Ave.
> > Green Bay, WI  54307-0448
> >
> > phone: (920) 492-5836
> > fax:      (920) 492-5913
> > tiserg at dnr.state.wi.us
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Leptraps at aol.com[SMTP:Leptraps at aol.com]
> > > Reply To: Leptraps at aol.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:56 AM
> > > To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
> > > Subject: RE: A Leper?
> > >
> > > In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to
> > > visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there,
> > > however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the
> > > disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster
> > > Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late
> > > Howard Cosell, was not there either.
> > >
> > > MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Leroy Koehn
> > > Georgetown, KY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> > >
> > >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Thu Jul 12 19:54:39 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:54:39 -0500
Subject: A Leper? armed and dangerous
In-Reply-To: <007b01c10b03$229545a0$7c245b0c@s0022921733>
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C6F@GREENBAY>
 <004b01c10af8$460849c0$7c245b0c@s0022921733>
 <002e01c10afc$cb8df8c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010712181528.00a3b410@pop3.norton.antivirus>

That reminds me of the 19thC tropical lepidopterists (there, that is not 
hard to say), who used dust shot for large papilionids. These were 
definitely not collectors of perfect specimens. They wanted something to 
describe from a place to which they would never expect to return.
    Conversely, C. H. Muller, THE Expert on American oaks once collected in 
a butterfly net, the type specimen of a hummingbird later described by 
Oberholtzer as *Phasmornis mystica* - Chisos Hummingbird, which is either a 
very rare or recently extinct endemic genus and species or is a remarkable 
gnome-like variant of the Black Chinned Hummingbird. I cannot check the 
type and only specimen because our small but priceless Univ. of Texas bird 
collection was recently traded to Texas Tech Univ. in exchange for herps 
because we had no funds to hire a curator for birds and mammals!
    Back to lepidopterans - I carry in my field bag, several bankers rubber 
bands. I have used these for securing stunned butterfly voucher specimens 
from high in trees, most notably for *Basilarchia obsoleta* near the top of 
willows in Arizona and *Panacea* spp. in Amazon woodland. Back home I use 
them to stun that venerable 72 million-year-old species *Periplaneta 
fuliginosa* for food, for my Veiled Chameleon aka Broccoli Bob.
    "Lepidopterist" is in my 1966 Unabridged Random House Dictionary (the 
last really good one). Leper is someone with Hansens Disease. Birder is one 
who hunts or raises birds. Bugger and Lepper are best ignored in our 
context as inappropriate terms.
............Chris Durden

At 02:47 PM 7/12/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Ron -
>
>     Actually, the early ornithologists got it right - the "cane gun".
>
>      Most of the time it was a sturdy, functional walking stick, but you
>never knew when a new bird species would show up in a backyard or while
>taking a brisk walk around the block.  "Egad - what IS that little bird?  I
>have never seen one like it before!"   At that point the "walking stick"
>spouted fire and lead shot, and another museum specimen hit the ground.
>
>     Now they are treasured by gun collectors, not bird collectors.
>
>Clay Taylor



 
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From MWalker at gensym.com  Fri Jul 13 00:24:57 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:24:57 -0400
Subject: Mason County, IL 7/12/01
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279D8F@hqmail.gensym.com>

More lepping in Lincoln's state.  While hiking in Sand Ridge National Forest
today I stumbled upon a nice population of Speyeria idalia.  Does it get any
better than this?  A mass emergence of immaculate females - looking for any
male that was up to the task.  All the males were old, tired, and ragged.  I
ran across one particularly gorgeous female idalia nectaring on milkweed
with her fat hiney (spelling? ) sticking out for all to see.  The only
problem was that the only male in sight was a Speyeria cybele (Great
Spangled Fritillary).  You thought that these Spangled Frits were large -
they are dwarfed when approached by the large female idalia.  This poor
little guy didn't want to play, but lady Idalia wouldn't take no for an
answer.  Hey - he'll do.

As I walked through the grasses, I would spook one after another out from
the deepest depths of the grass.  Up they float, awkwardly at first - and
then off to find another resting place.  If I never see another butterfly, I
will remain fulfilled.

I wasn't expecting the Regal.  I was hoping to see some hairstreaks - but
apparently I'm too late for these.  The only hairstreaks out today were
Satyrium titus and a single ragged specimen of Satyrium calanus.  All the
Coral Hairstreaks were pretty beat up as well.  It looks as though they must
have peaked a few weeks ago here.

Lots and lots of Cabbage Whites out here.  I don't think I've seen them so
common anywhere.  Plenty of Eurema lisa, too.  Swallowtails were common -
including a single Papilio cresphontes (Giant Swallowtail) nectaring on
milkweed.

Not much else to report - except that it's amazing how much habitat is
consumed by crops.  If we all love leps so much, we should probably stop
eating.

my list:

Papilio glaucus (Tiger Swallowtail)
Papilio troilus (Spicebush Swallowtail)
Papilio cresphontes (Giant Swallowtail)
Papilio polyxenes (Black Swallowtail)
Battus philenor (Pipevine Swallowtail)

Pontius protodice (Checkered White)
(a single speciment amongst the horde)
Pieris rapae (Cabbage White)
Colias philodice (Clouded Sulphur)
Colias eurytheme (Orange Sulphur)
Eurema lisa (Little Sulphur)

Lycaena phlaeas (American Copper)
(no other coppers };>(

Satyrium titus (Coral Hairstreak)
Satyrium calanus (Banded Hairstreak)
Celastrina neglecta (Summer Azure)
Everes comyntas (Eastern Tailed Blue)

Euptoieta claudia (Variegated Fritillary)
Speyeria cybele (Great Spangled Fritillary)
Speyeria idalia (Regal Fritillary)
Phyciodes tharos (Pearl Crescentspot)
Polygonia interragationis (Question Mark)
Polygonia comma (Comma)
Nymphalis antiopa (Mourning Cloak)
Vanessa virginiensis (American Lady)
Vanessa cardui (Painted Lady)
Vanessa atalanta (Red Admiral)
(still signs of mass emergence)
Junonia coenia (Buckeye)
Limenitis arthemis (Red Spotted Purple)
Limenitis archippus (Viceroy)

Megisto cymela (Little Wood Satyr)
Cercyonis pegala (Common Wood Nymph)

Danaus plexippus (Monarch)
(doing very well here)

Epargyreus clarus (Silver Spotted Skipper)
(common at milkweed)
Ancyloxypha numitor (Least Skipper)
Polites peckius (Peck's Skipper)


Mark Walker
back in Chicago



 
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From monarch at saber.net  Fri Jul 13 02:39:25 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:39:25 -0700
Subject: Crops found to make great monarch butterfly breeding habitat
References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279D8F@hqmail.gensym.com>
Message-ID: <3B4E979D.3EE1@saber.net>

Mark Walker in Mason County, IL 7/12/01 wrote:

> it's amazing how much habitat is consumed by crops. 
> If we all love leps so much, we should probably stop
> eating.

> my [species] list: Danaus plexippus (Monarch) (doing very well here)

Mark, there is a good reason why monarchs are so abundant in areas
of the upper Midwest USA dominated by row crops - corn and soybeans
actually make outstanding monarch butterfly breeding habitat!

Yes, this was the stunning new finding reported by Dr. John Pleasants
of the University of Iowa, Ames, at the Monarch Research 
Conference in Kansas in May 20-23, 2001.

Dr. Pleasants and his colleagues estimate that 71% of the monarch
breeding population in Iowa is produced on milkweed plants 
growing as weeds INSIDE the corn and soybean crops. In
Minnesota that figure is 94%!  Roadsides and other non-crop areas produce
only 29% of the monarchs in Iowa and only 5% of those in Minnesota.

How can this be?  Well Dr. Pleasants found:

-  female monarchs "prefer" to lay their eggs on milkweeds growing
    INSIDE the crop canopy rather than on milkweeds growing along roadsides 
    or in other more natural, non-crop areas.  

-   Roundup herbicide treatments don't kill the milkweeds (growing within
     the corn and soybean crops) but just burn back the top growth which, in 
     turn, stimulates the growth of tender new milkweed shoots (from the living 
     underground rhizomes). It is these tender new shoots which are 
     favored as oviposition sites by female monarch butterflies.

-  fewer monarch parasites and predators may exist INSIDE the crop canopy
   as compared to more open, adjacent  natural areas.

-  the milkweeds growing inside the crops are more healthy and nutritious
    for monarch caterpillars due to the chemical fertilizer use.

So we can now rejoice that extremely intense agriculture and its associated 
heavy pesticide and chemical fertilizer use is actually good breeding habitat 
for the supposidly "endangered" monarch butterfly.

Iornically, the monarch conservation establishment has been preaching just
the opposite -that agricultural expansion threatens the monarch. For example this  
website http://MonarchWatch.org/conserve/index.htm says:

"Monarchs and their amazing annual migration are seriously
threatened by human activities, in both their summer and overwintering
sites. Many of these threatening activities hinge on the destruction of
good Monarch habitats. New roads, housing developments, and
agricultural expansion - all transform a natural landscape in ways
that make it impossible for Monarchs to live there."

Paul Cherubini, Placerville, Calif.

 
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From robert.dana at dnr.state.mn.us  Fri Jul 13 11:50:50 2001
From: robert.dana at dnr.state.mn.us (Robert Dana)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:50:50 -0500
Subject: Jeff Glassberg radio interview
Message-ID: <sb4ed2f8.017@co5.dnr.state.mn.us>

Greetings all:

Mr. Glassberg has been a frequent topic of discussion on this list, so I thought it might be of interest to many to hear a radio interview with him that was broadcast yesterday on Minnesota Public Radio. No great revelations, but it is interesting to hear the promotional process at work. Butterflies are to be the "wildlife of the 21st Century", evidently because they don't need wilderness but can be observed right in your own back yard, they are not dangerous, and are beautiful. Just the perfect sort of wildlife for the global suburbia of the 21st Century!

To hear the interview, go to 

http://news.mpr.org/ 

and look under the "Midmorning" heading for the link to "Hour 2: butterflies" It runs for a little bit over 50 min.



 

*************************************************************
Robert Dana, Ph.D.
MN DNR
Natural Heritage and Nongame Research Program
500 Lafayette Rd, Box 25
St. Paul, MN 55155
651 297-2367
Email: robert.dana at dnr.state.mn.us
*************************************************************


 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Fri Jul 13 12:05:59 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:05:59 -0500
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <20010713.110611.-225471.2.mbpi@juno.com>

It should be "Odors" as in "Odo"nates (!)  Let's use the correct
olfactory term...

See, we're still arguing about "correct" versus scientific, versus
common, versus nicknames, versus....  Arrgh!!!!

I give up...

M.B. Prondzinski

On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:54:33 EDT Leptraps at aol.com writes:
> Wait a minute! Oders and Lepers. Or are you saying the the Oders of 
> Lepers stink?
> 
> Holding my nose to that stench!
> 
> Leroy C. KoehnGeorgetown, KY
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
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>  
> 

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From KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us  Fri Jul 13 12:10:37 2001
From: KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us (Kelly Richers)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:10:37 -0700
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <sb4ebb28.012@209.165.33.133>

Well, many of us odoriforous lepers and mothers (as a vice-princiipal I get called a "Mother" for other reasons also, will be meeting in Corvallis in two weeks.  Hope to see some of you there!

>>> <mbpi at juno.com> 07/13/01 09:05AM >>>
It should be "Odors" as in "Odo"nates (!)  Let's use the correct
olfactory term...

See, we're still arguing about "correct" versus scientific, versus
common, versus nicknames, versus....  Arrgh!!!!

I give up...

M.B. Prondzinski

On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:54:33 EDT Leptraps at aol.com writes:
> Wait a minute! Oders and Lepers. Or are you saying the the Oders of 
> Lepers stink?
> 
> Holding my nose to that stench!
> 
> Leroy C. KoehnGeorgetown, KY
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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From droberts03 at snet.net  Fri Jul 13 12:31:34 2001
From: droberts03 at snet.net (bill and Dale)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:31:34 -0400
Subject: Lepers
Message-ID: <3B4F2266.E5BBC975@snet.net>

Hi everyone,
      I don't know about you lepers but I'm a butterflier!

Bill Yule


 
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From MexicoDoug at aol.com  Fri Jul 13 13:36:21 2001
From: MexicoDoug at aol.com (MexicoDoug at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:36:21 EDT
Subject: Lepers: Proposal
Message-ID: <94.16c15811.28808b95@aol.com>

How 'bout some comments on the flooiwing ideas:

Lepster odo bean Webster, defined as follows:

Lepster: A butterfly and/or moth enthusiast, a simplified and arguably 
modernized form derived from "Lepidopterist" covering subscribers to the two 
broad and popularly accepted professions and hobbies based on human 
interactions and/or study of the order Lepidoptera.

Leper: unfortunate folk who suffer from more than a passion, not related to 
the order Lepidoptera (see Bible)

Lepper:  A fan of George Lepp, copyright probably reserved for such use

Mother: (1) see Mommy, Mum or (2) practically speaking, a Lepster 
specializing in night-flying insects of the order Lepidoptera, strictly 
defined by some with a few defined day flying exceptions

Butterflier: (1) practically speaking, a Lepster specializing in day-flying 
insects of the order, either including the exceptions of Mother (2), or not 
including said exceptions, depending on the attitude of the Lepster.

Odoer:  (see Odo-listserver)

Doug Dawn
Monterrey, Mexico

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 13 14:07:30 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:07:30 -0400
Subject: WAS A Leper?
References: <20010713.110611.-225471.2.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <010801c10bc6$af0a4300$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


M.B. Prondzinski wrote


> It should be "Odors" as in "Odo"nates (!)  Let's use the correct
> olfactory term...
>
> See, we're still arguing about "correct" versus scientific, versus
> common, versus nicknames, versus....  Arrgh!!!!
>
> I give up...


As humans we all do a very interesting thing. We ask and want to know. For
those with a bit keener curiosity, they want to know in more specifics - or
accurately. Correct has several connotations depending on the theme. Here
correct is synonymous with accurate.  This Leper or Lepper or Odors or
Oders thread is a spontaneous test, that without giving thought to it in
advance, in hindsight reveals - by the number who jumped on it and their
various inputs to it - not only the instinctive curiosity and creativity of
man - but his drive for accuracy. So, arrgh!!! ?  NO. hurrah! We _can_
still reason after all. Don't give up (in).

Someday, unfortunately far off, yet surely to occur, there will arise a
keener generation that via latent (but intrinsic) curiosity will have freed
themselves from the dumbded down butterflying of today and once again
discovered the science of lepidopterology.  This future generation will
have a lament though. It will be due to the number of subspecies (which
evolutionally, is what all lepidopteran organic units are) that needlessly
went extinct simply because those who saw them did not behold them. They
saw without noticing, reported without knowing, cared without helping. If
this generation could be brought back in the future to realize the damage
they did by their inattention to taxonomic detail - they would simply say
that they were sorry but they just didn't know. To which the future
lepidopterists' response would be two pronged - That is because you were
not told (by today's field guides) but also because you did not ask (the
refusal to seek depth).

Not only can we not report that which we do not know, we can not protect it
either.
Ron

Post Script.  "When I was a child I spoke, understood, and thought as a
child. But when I became an adult I put away childish things."  I
Corinthians 13:11  There is a lot of money to be made in children's books
though.


 
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From TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us  Fri Jul 13 14:41:33 2001
From: TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us (Tiser, Gene M)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:41:33 -0500
Subject: WAS A Leper?
Message-ID: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C80@GREENBAY>

Ron -
I think you missed one other significant aspect/justification of sub-species
documentation.  That is, surviving subspecies of today will at some point
become tomorrow's species.  If today's subspecies are not noted or tracked,
the future lepidopterans will lament the loss of evolutionary data and
insights that could have been gained had these creatures been carefully
documented and studied.  Can you imagine having data that tracks a
sub-species through the time it becomes a full fledged species?

Gene Tiser
Education Coordinator
NE Region Hdqtrs
PO Box 10448
1125 N. Military Ave.
Green Bay, WI  54307-0448

phone: (920) 492-5836
fax:      (920) 492-5913
tiserg at dnr.state.wi.us

> ----------
> From: 	Ron Gatrelle[SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Reply To: 	Ron Gatrelle
> Sent: 	Friday, July 13, 2001 1:07 PM
> To: 	Leps-l
> Subject: 	Re: WAS A Leper?
> 
> 
> M.B. Prondzinski wrote
> 
> 
> > It should be "Odors" as in "Odo"nates (!)  Let's use the correct
> > olfactory term...
> >
> > See, we're still arguing about "correct" versus scientific, versus
> > common, versus nicknames, versus....  Arrgh!!!!
> >
> > I give up...
> 
> 
> As humans we all do a very interesting thing. We ask and want to know. For
> those with a bit keener curiosity, they want to know in more specifics -
> or
> accurately. Correct has several connotations depending on the theme. Here
> correct is synonymous with accurate.  This Leper or Lepper or Odors or
> Oders thread is a spontaneous test, that without giving thought to it in
> advance, in hindsight reveals - by the number who jumped on it and their
> various inputs to it - not only the instinctive curiosity and creativity
> of
> man - but his drive for accuracy. So, arrgh!!! ?  NO. hurrah! We _can_
> still reason after all. Don't give up (in).
> 
> Someday, unfortunately far off, yet surely to occur, there will arise a
> keener generation that via latent (but intrinsic) curiosity will have
> freed
> themselves from the dumbded down butterflying of today and once again
> discovered the science of lepidopterology.  This future generation will
> have a lament though. It will be due to the number of subspecies (which
> evolutionally, is what all lepidopteran organic units are) that needlessly
> went extinct simply because those who saw them did not behold them. They
> saw without noticing, reported without knowing, cared without helping. If
> this generation could be brought back in the future to realize the damage
> they did by their inattention to taxonomic detail - they would simply say
> that they were sorry but they just didn't know. To which the future
> lepidopterists' response would be two pronged - That is because you were
> not told (by today's field guides) but also because you did not ask (the
> refusal to seek depth).
> 
> Not only can we not report that which we do not know, we can not protect
> it
> either.
> Ron
> 
> Post Script.  "When I was a child I spoke, understood, and thought as a
> child. But when I became an adult I put away childish things."  I
> Corinthians 13:11  There is a lot of money to be made in children's books
> though.
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  
> 

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 13 15:21:14 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:21:14 -0400
Subject: WAS A Leper?
References: <C631E0C7CC70D11181150000F81ECF00012B4C80@GREENBAY>
Message-ID: <012901c10bd0$fc533860$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tiser, Gene M" <TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us>
Subject: RE: WAS A Leper?


> Ron -
> I think you missed one other significant aspect/justification of
sub-species
> documentation.  That is, surviving subspecies of today will at some point
> become tomorrow's species.  If today's subspecies are not noted or
tracked,
> the future lepidopterans will lament the loss of evolutionary data and
> insights that could have been gained had these creatures been carefully
> documented and studied.  Can you imagine having data that tracks a
> sub-species through the time it becomes a full fledged species?
>
> Gene Tiser

Exactly. Actually I did address this between-the-lines in the " (which
evolutionally, is what all lepidopteran organic units are) " statement. I
am glad you brought it out as it is an extremely important point.  I am
going to attach a little piece I wrote some time ago titled: Taxonomic
Philosophy.  This is copyrighted material. It is very short and I see no
problem attaching it to this leps-l post. It is just text no graphics etc.
It is in pdf (Adobe) format.

Ron

Ron
-------------- next part --------------
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From MWalker at gensym.com  Fri Jul 13 15:35:27 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:35:27 -0400
Subject: Leaves
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279D99@hqmail.gensym.com>

Leaves - by Mark Walker

I don't remember exactly when I first became obsessed with leaves.  For many
years, I hardly even realized they were there.  They were everywhere, and
yet I took no particular notice of them.  A friend of mine used to point
them out with great fascination, but I could never fully relate to what she
was talking about.  And then - as if my eyes were suddenly opened for the
first time - I began to notice the diversity and the incredible rainbow of
colors that were presented on each and every leaf of each and every tree.

And so I venture far and wide to embrace the leaves - each one uniquely
different and special in it's own rite.  I enjoy them on the tree, I enjoy
them on the ground, and I especially enjoy them as they fall.  If you get up
really close, the fascination is multiplied.  The texture, the variety of
shape and color - all these contribute to the overwhelming attraction I find
for these organic tokens of Creation.

Through the years I have kept the most intriguing of leaves - putting them
together in a spectacular portfolio worthy of presentation.  They are
primarily for my own personal enjoyment - though likely only because I find
few who share a similar passion.  I certainly never hesitate to share them.

A friend has recently taken exception to my possessive tendencies.  She
insists that I should leave the leaves where I find them and take pictures
instead.  She has grown concerned for the well being of leaves, and insists
that there are fewer leaves around now than when she was growing up.
Perhaps this is true.  She claims that I am contributing to the raping of
forests, and notes that every year she's noticed the trees looking barer and
barer.

I don't know.  I watch the forest every year - I'm in it daily, and have a
vested interest in it's well being.  It appears to me that the forest is
well designed, and that the trees are capable of producing such a mass of
leaves that the few that I take home should be of no concern.  In support of
this idea, I took note of the experience of another hobbyist whom, unlike
myself, places no limit on the number of leaves that he acquires from a
single tree.  In one location he had removed so many leaves that I, too,
became concerned with the trees ability to replenish.  Returning to the spot
the following spring, I was pleased to find the tree alive and well - fully
adorned with the leaves of the new season.  The trees are robust, and they
produce many, many leaves.

But my ecologically minded friend is not impressed.  She points out that in
her neighborhood she's noticing fewer and fewer leaves.  I reason with her,
and explain that there are fewer leaves in her neighborhood because there
are fewer trees there - but that doesn't seem to sway her.  Keep the trees,
I tell her, and you'll always have plenty of leaves.

Now I, too, have become concerned about the leaves.  I went walking in one
of my favorite patches of forest the other day, and to my astonishment the
whole area had been dozed to the ground.  A convenience mall was to be built
on the spot so that those of us who have chosen to live in the country don't
have to travel so far to buy the things that we need.   One of my all time
favorite trees - an old large oak that has never failed to provide an
abundance of leaves - was currently being cut into firewood.  One thing can
be known as certain - no trees, and no leaves.

Sigh.  I suppose I will soon be forced to give up my passion for collecting
leaves.  As the surrounding landscape continues to be transformed into
concrete and steel, I can see the day when there will truly be too few trees
to sustain a hobby like mine.  In the meantime, however, I've dedicated
myself to doing something positive.  And so now, for every leaf that I
choose to call my own - I will plant a new tree.

Mark Walker
Oceanside, CA

 
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From dlhoyt at negia.net  Fri Jul 13 15:38:35 2001
From: dlhoyt at negia.net (Dale Hoyt)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:38:35 -0400
Subject: Leps/Localities circa Eureka, CA
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010713153835.0095b7b0@pop.negia.net>

I have a chance to spend a week in Eureka, CA, at the end of the month
(July) and wondered if any list members could suggest localities near there
that are especially good for butterfly watching. Also appreciated would be
some species to look for. I've never been to N. CA before and I have no
idea what to expect in the way of climate and habitats. Thanks in advance
for your suggestions!
Cheers!

Dale Hoyt

 
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From fnjjk1 at uaf.edu  Fri Jul 13 15:52:48 2001
From: fnjjk1 at uaf.edu (James Kruse)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:52:48 -0800
Subject: witches in the SF Bay Area...
Message-ID: <B7749190.5B1%fnjjk1@uaf.edu>

Greetings:

I have been told that very recently a live Ascalapha odorata (Black Witch -
a very large dark brown noctuid common in Mexico) in good condition was
found in Berkeley, California. Not only did it make its way to the Bay Area
in pretty nice shape, it ended up flying into the second story window of
Wellman Hall on the Berkeley campus... where the Essig Museum of Entomology
is kept!!! Natural selection at work? Is this like the trophy fish that
jumped into the boat? Now what do you put on the label... found in the Essig
Museum? duh!

Anyhow, I am writing to find out if anyone in the Bay Area is rearing it and
intentionally/unintentionally released any. It is rarely found in northern
California, even though it goes _much_ further north in eastern states,
usually in the fall. It is even more unusual, a bizarre coincidence in fact,
that it ended up in the entomology museum (under its own power). But, the
campus is pretty dark and the building is on a hill with the second story
windows open and the lights on almost all of the time, so I don't think
there is any funny business going on. Less so if someone local set some
loose. 

An odd and probably unpleasant thing to release at a wedding I should think,
akin to releasing bats.

Regards,

James J. Kruse, Ph.D.
Curator of Entomology
University of Alaska Museum
907 Yukon Drive
Fairbanks, AK, USA 99775-6960
tel 907.474.5579
fax 907.474.1987
http://www.uaf.edu/museum/ento



 
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Fri Jul 13 16:26:16 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 16:26:16 -0400
Subject: witches in the SF Bay Area...
References: <B7749190.5B1%fnjjk1@uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <004701c10bda$12dc7b60$ab8a0a3f@1swch01>

James:

A odorata may have ridden an 18-wheeler into town from south Texas.

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Kruse" <fnjjk1 at uaf.edu>
To: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 3:52 PM
Subject: witches in the SF Bay Area...


> Greetings:
>
> I have been told that very recently a live Ascalapha odorata (Black
Witch -
> a very large dark brown noctuid common in Mexico) in good condition was
> found in Berkeley, California. Not only did it make its way to the Bay
Area
> in pretty nice shape, it ended up flying into the second story window of
> Wellman Hall on the Berkeley campus... where the Essig Museum of
Entomology
> is kept!!! Natural selection at work? Is this like the trophy fish that
> jumped into the boat? Now what do you put on the label... found in the
Essig
> Museum? duh!
>
> Anyhow, I am writing to find out if anyone in the Bay Area is rearing it
and
> intentionally/unintentionally released any. It is rarely found in northern
> California, even though it goes _much_ further north in eastern states,
> usually in the fall. It is even more unusual, a bizarre coincidence in
fact,
> that it ended up in the entomology museum (under its own power). But, the
> campus is pretty dark and the building is on a hill with the second story
> windows open and the lights on almost all of the time, so I don't think
> there is any funny business going on. Less so if someone local set some
> loose.
>
> An odd and probably unpleasant thing to release at a wedding I should
think,
> akin to releasing bats.
>
> Regards,
>
> James J. Kruse, Ph.D.
> Curator of Entomology
> University of Alaska Museum
> 907 Yukon Drive
> Fairbanks, AK, USA 99775-6960
> tel 907.474.5579
> fax 907.474.1987
> http://www.uaf.edu/museum/ento
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>


 
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From emengersen at admin.oldscollege.ab.ca  Fri Jul 13 17:08:16 2001
From: emengersen at admin.oldscollege.ab.ca (Ernest Mengersen)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:08:16 -0600
Subject: witches in the SF Bay Area...
Message-ID: <sb4f0f24.006@gwmail>

I would not be surprised if there are records and sightings of the Black Witch (Ascalapha ordorata) from every state, province or territory on continental North America.  I have had several brought into our collection from Dairy farmers, car repair shops, truck stops, and off a hog manure pile (that is what the farmer said - and yes - it looked like a bat.) here in south-central Alberta.  I have been told it is a migrant that travels here from Mexico on the wind currents.  Heck, if the wee tiny sunflower moth (Homoeosoma electellum) can move from Texas to Saskatchewan in 3 to 5 days during the proper wind conditions,  the black witch can do it too.  If the painted lady butterfly (Vanessa cardui) can move from Baja California to central Alberta and further environs, who is to argue the distribution or movement of the black witch.   No,  the host is not present here.  I would be surprised if you don't have specimens in the U of Alaska collection.  (maybe off the wind currents?)

An agriculture professor who  teaches in Mexico told me that it gets its name for being a bad oman for bringing bad luck when found in the presence of pregnant ladies.  Somehow brings bad luck to the unborn baby.  Not something to be used or seen at weddings.  

Ernest Mengersen
 
>>> James Kruse <fnjjk1 at uaf.edu> 07/13/01 01:52PM >>>
Greetings:

I have been told that very recently a live Ascalapha odorata (Black Witch -
a very large dark brown noctuid common in Mexico) in good condition was
found in Berkeley, California. Not only did it make its way to the Bay Area
in pretty nice shape, it ended up flying into the second story window of
Wellman Hall on the Berkeley campus... where the Essig Museum of Entomology
is kept!!! Natural selection at work? Is this like the trophy fish that
jumped into the boat? Now what do you put on the label... found in the Essig
Museum? duh!

Anyhow, I am writing to find out if anyone in the Bay Area is rearing it and
intentionally/unintentionally released any. It is rarely found in northern
California, even though it goes _much_ further north in eastern states,
usually in the fall. It is even more unusual, a bizarre coincidence in fact,
that it ended up in the entomology museum (under its own power). But, the
campus is pretty dark and the building is on a hill with the second story
windows open and the lights on almost all of the time, so I don't think
there is any funny business going on. Less so if someone local set some
loose. 

An odd and probably unpleasant thing to release at a wedding I should think,
akin to releasing bats.

Regards,

James J. Kruse, Ph.D.
Curator of Entomology
University of Alaska Museum
907 Yukon Drive
Fairbanks, AK, USA 99775-6960
tel 907.474.5579
fax 907.474.1987
http://www.uaf.edu/museum/ento 



 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From emengersen at admin.oldscollege.ab.ca  Fri Jul 13 17:19:33 2001
From: emengersen at admin.oldscollege.ab.ca (Ernest Mengersen)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:19:33 -0600
Subject: A Leper?
Message-ID: <sb4f11bf.014@gwmail>

Since I do like moths better than butterflies, I could say that I prefer the name moth-er over lepper (or leper?).  What I am looking for is a tattoo with the term "moth-er" and surrounded by a heart or flowers or something (a caterpillar or a Luna?) to go with the tattoos I see on the forearms of sailors that have a heart and flowers with the word "Mother" in it.  Anyone seen anything like that?  Since tattooing is the latest form of body mutilation, how about a booth at the Leps meeting in Corvallis?  (It must be Friday afternoon on a hot afternoon of a long, busy week.)  

Ernest

>>> "Kelly Richers" <KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us> 07/13/01 10:10AM >>>
Well, many of us odoriforous lepers and mothers (as a vice-princiipal I get called a "Mother" for other reasons also, will be meeting in Corvallis in two weeks.  Hope to see some of you there!

>>> <mbpi at juno.com> 07/13/01 09:05AM >>>
It should be "Odors" as in "Odo"nates (!)  Let's use the correct
olfactory term...

See, we're still arguing about "correct" versus scientific, versus
common, versus nicknames, versus....  Arrgh!!!!

I give up...

M.B. Prondzinski

On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:54:33 EDT Leptraps at aol.com writes:
> Wait a minute! Oders and Lepers. Or are you saying the the Oders of 
> Lepers stink?
> 
> Holding my nose to that stench!
> 
> Leroy C. KoehnGeorgetown, KY
> 
>  
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> 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Fri Jul 13 17:41:48 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:41:48 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Garden Canyon Road]
Message-ID: <3B4F6B1C.4175671A@theriver.com>

gretchen.kent at hua.army.mil wrote:
> 
> please pass along to birders that Garden Canyon Road is now drivable most of
> the way with minimal or no 4WD, and the final repairs should be completed by
> the 21st of July.
> Gretchen R. Kent
> Physical Scientist
> NEPA Coordinator
> Fort Huachuca, AZ
> 520 (533) 2549
> MISSION: MISSION SUPPORT


-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From pmorrisb at cix.compulink.co.uk  Fri Jul 13 17:13:56 2001
From: pmorrisb at cix.compulink.co.uk (Phil)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 21:13:56 GMT
Subject: Newbie asks: Breeding Butterflies, but where to start?
Message-ID: <3b4f60b2.46298994@news.freeserve.com>

I've been pondering over starting a new hobby, and breeding
butterflies is most appealing. Now, please bear in mind that I'm a
complete ignoramous on this subject so I might ask some foolish
questions.

Anyway, what is my main aim? Ultimately it would be nice to breed
butterflies for release into the wild and continuance of the species,
but I am of course aware that  these should be carefully selected so
that only butterflies local to the relevant area are released.

I have concerns about where to keep them - if I breed butterflies that
cannot be legally released then keeping them in a two foot by 3 foot
'cage' would presumably be cruel - these beautiful creatures are
designed for flight and I don't want to restrict that freedom. Being a
sentimental fool I don't think I could kill them, however humanely it
is done.

Presumably a larger area for keeping them is an option, but I don't
really have the indoor space. A suitable garden area is an option, but
then there are concerns about temperature control and general weather
conditions. Yeah, I know, in the wild they simply have to survive
whatever the weather, but you know what I mean.

Breeding the more exotic species also appeals, but I guess I shouldn't
try to run before I can walk and so should instead simply breed a few
of the easier, more common breeds first.

I also have two cats, and as most of you will know cats can be cruel
buggers at times (I know, it's instinctive) as they just love to catch
things that flap and skitter about. Care would obviously need to be
taken to ensure the cats don't eat anything I've just reared!

Is any of this feasible for me, or should I stop now? :)

Assuming I can continue, can anyone please recommend any web sites
that give a DETAILED account on breeding butterflies for a beginner?

Also, are there any books that are particularly recommended?

I'm in the UK if it's of any relevance.



Thanks,
Phil


 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Fri Jul 13 18:15:55 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:15:55 -0700
Subject: Lepers: Proposal
References: <94.16c15811.28808b95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B4F731B.EC019990@theriver.com>

MexicoDoug at aol.com wrote:
> 
> How 'bout some comments on the flooiwing ideas:
> 
> Lepster odo bean Webster, defined as follows:
> 
> Lepster: A butterfly and/or moth enthusiast, 

Dawn -
I don't know much about the other stuff - but lepster has a nice feel to
it ;-)
Cheers!
-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com  Fri Jul 13 18:37:59 2001
From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 19:37:59 -0300
Subject: MOTH-ers
Message-ID: <004701c10bec$77e70220$04f3b18e@oehlke>

This is Poncho Billo (pronounced Beel' uh), the greatest MOTH-er of all time.

If butterfly enthusiasts wish to be lepsters (sounds like sick hampsters to me) so be it, but leave us MOTH-ers alone, if you please.  

What do moth larvae do at the equator on New Year's Day?

They turrn over a new leaf.

What do butterfly larvae do at the equator on New Year's Day?

They cleanup the moth larvae's poop.

If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to
http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm 
and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites.  
Thankyou!

Bill Oehlke
Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0
http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew
oehlkew at islandtelecom.com
Phone: 902-838-3455
fax: 902-838-0866
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From freemaya at webtv.net  Fri Jul 13 19:54:41 2001
From: freemaya at webtv.net (Skip)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 18:54:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: caterpillar sites?
Message-ID: <29305-3B4F8A41-326@storefull-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Can anyone send me or post some sites that have caterpillar jpgs? The
field guides I have are very limited. Pupae sites also welcomed.


 
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From bohm at vscht.cz  Fri Jul 13 03:47:31 2001
From: bohm at vscht.cz (Stanislav Böhm)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:47:31 +0200
Subject: test only - delete
Message-ID: <3b4ea7ac$1@news.cvut.cz>

aaaaa



 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Jul 13 23:49:57 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:49:57 -0500
Subject: Lepers: Proposal
In-Reply-To: <3B4F731B.EC019990@theriver.com>
References: <94.16c15811.28808b95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010713224728.0288de80@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Lepster reminds me of Coyote trickster. This somehow seems appropriate.
..........Chris Durden

At 03:15 PM 7/13/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>MexicoDoug at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > How 'bout some comments on the flooiwing ideas:
> >
> > Lepster odo bean Webster, defined as follows:
> >
> > Lepster: A butterfly and/or moth enthusiast,
>
>Dawn -
>I don't know much about the other stuff - but lepster has a nice feel to
>it ;-)
>Cheers!
>--
>                      Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
>                   Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
>                    Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
>              SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
>           http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
>          "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide"
>     by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
>          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sat Jul 14 04:33:02 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 04:33:02 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123> <3B4DA616.2F1788F@tnc.org> <3B4DBDA4.5BFA0B65@anu.ie>
Message-ID: <004f01c10c3f$99514e40$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Anne Kilmer wrote
snip
>  ...with the mutability of scientific names, at the mercy
> of lumpers and splitters...


Mutable: "given to changing, or constantly changing."
Immutable: "unchanging, unalterable, changeless."

There is a big difference between knowing enough to be a good editor and
being creative enough to be a good author, being able to write a song but
not sing it, conduct the music but not play or create it.  I have written
hundreds of articles and several booklets - all non leps (including a local
weekly newspaper column for two years, which I quit because it was too much
work). My editors always love my material and punchy style but hate my
grammar, punctuation, spelling.  I needed them, they made me look literate.

Some of the dumbest people I know have a lot of knowledge or can spell real
good. Knowledge, wisdom, insight, understanding - different animals.
Knowledge is cheep - its a dime a dozen. Wisdom is rare - it can't be
faked.  Insight is what makes great councilors great - others don't like
what it sees in them.  To understand - is to have arrived.

To let Anne's statements (made in her usual cutesy but sarcastic way) slide
by is to give everyone else the impression that I have bowed my head, been
put in my place, and acquiesced to the higher power.  She is very wrong and
does not have the faintest idea what she is talking about when it comes to
"scientific names" and how they function. She does not understand.

Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of Zoological
Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth about
taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it works.
Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The International Code
of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability to organic
defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors often
work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.

Gochfeld also posted recently that, " Ron, we've been down the name line
often before. A scientific name is NO MORE OR LESS correct [than a common
name] and certainly no more stable over time than any other name which
people bestow on what they think they understand as what may be a species
(or other level taxon)."

To this I say that we obviously have not been down it far enough or long
enough because people still just don't it - understand.

At this point I do not even know if it is worth going into it. I have sat
on this post for awhile wondering if I should even post this much. Then
there is issue of space on a list like this.

I have a question line for the people who want to discuss taxonomy and its
nomenclatorial procedures. Do you own a copy of the ICZN (bible), have you
read it, do you understand it, have you ever or do you work with it, is it
a familiar every day tool to you? If not you are like a guy off the street
putting on boxing gloves and getting in ring with Mike Tyson. A person with
no license getting behind the wheel of a car. There are many
entomology professors who don't know about _doing_ taxonomy.

An organism is discoverd. It is then scientifically identified by a term
that is based on Latin OR Greek OR a combiantion of both - or neither (e.g.
an American Indian name left as is - cullasaja).

When the science of systematic nomenclature was introduced it was so
primative then that confusion was a common occurance. Many original
descriptions were very brief and not accompanied by even a cartoonist
painting - we were like babies learning to walk. Many of these are also so
rare and obscure that some later workers did not even know they existed or
if so, where to find them. But the system was brilliant.

Our example will be Papilio ajax.  After its coining it was found that when
the word ajax was applied (in 1758) that several different butterflies
were unknowingly included under this epithet.  Eventually no one could tell
to which it actually was affixed!
Arguments over ajax ensued. Finally, it was wisely decided that we could
never know to which organism that term was meant to apply. The scientific
community went to court so to speak and ruled that rather than apply ajax
improperly, ajax was banned in regard to several species of swallowtails
involved - glaucus, marcellus, asterius, troilus.  So how were these "ajax"
to now be known?  What NEW names were given to these?  NONE.
1) It was never known in the first place what "ajax" was referring
to so technically NO SINGLE butterfly was ever named this.
 2) A new name was not sought. Rather an OLD name. Taxonomic names very
rarely move FORWARD. If something is found defective -
a nomen nudum, nomen dubium - the taxonomist MUST make a search for the
oldest available name and he AND ALL OTHERS MUST use that one valid name.
(There are exceptions and the new edition strongly leans to preserving
names held in long usage. This is a very complicated and legalistic process
that I am nutshelling.)

That is the immutable goal of the system - find the oldest and stick with
it forever. What ever the oldest available and valid word-term for a
subspecies/species that is its name forever. Sometimes we are still finding
that occasionally a name WE have been using (say turnus 1771), is the NEW
name and that we  should have been using the OLDER name (here glaucus) as
THAT is the correct name by the Code. Glaucus is The immutable epithet -
which is why we HAD to RETURN to it.  Nothing changed - popular
workers had just screwed up by using the incorrect name - turnus.

This is like a child born and being given to the wrong parent at birth.
The child was born a Smith - but (because of human error) its first
10 years was spent as a Jones. When the mistake was realized the
child was given to its proper parents and is now know correctly
as Smith. The friends who only knew it as Jones would (ignorantly)
say, Oh you have a NEW name. The child would say, no I have found
my OLD and REAL name. They of course, would not _understand_
because of what they did not know. Some might still want to,
and would,  call him/her Jones.

This applies to genus names often. All butterflies were once just genus
Papilio. Eventually we saw that was wrong. Wrong how?  Because evolution
had not made them all Papilio. The taxonomist could call them a "term" he
chose (within the rules) but HAD to categorize them in groups as
God and evolution made them.  This gave rise to hairstreaks becoming
Thecla rather then Papilio. This lumping was found incorrect also.
Now, there are still Thecla but only the ones evolutionally related to
the FIRST taxon in that genus to which the genus label Thecla was
affixed. Thecla, like Papilio, is the immutable epithet for their
respective
genera. When new genera are discovered (uncovered) the proper evolutionary
units MUST be placed in (moved to) them. When a species is transferred to
another genus it is simply the scientifically demanded aligning of
nomenclature with what nature has made - the original parent.

I'll quit here. There is nothing capricious about scientific terms (unlike
common names).  What the lay person sees as random mutable name changes are
not such at all. They are REQUIRED adjustment to bring the system to its
immutalble conslusion (for this time and space).  The name appalachia
affixed to that organism in the southern US we commonly call the
Appalachian Brown will never change ever - it can't be. It is immutable as
that is the only and oldest scientific term available to it. The common
name can, and likely will, be changed many times in the next thousand
years. But not appalachia. It will stay in Satyroides too and can only be
MOVED (not "renamed") to a different genus if the evolutionary evidence
says that is where it belongs.

Bottom line. 1) Species/subspecies level. A newly discovered animal is
given a new name - within very strict parameters of the ICZN naming
process.  This is (basically) the only time we get "new" names. A named
animal that we have known as xus for twenty years suddenly appears as wus
in the popular literature - the uneducated see this as a new name. It is
not - it is a return to an older name - the original immutable one.  2) A
transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all "experts" and so more
than one alignment may be found. However, the original epithet given to the
individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable epithets or
from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will provide an
everlasting unchanging nomenclature. Scientific IDs (commonly called names)
are the only correct class of labels for animals, plants, and minerals.
Common names aren't.  Au   is and will be the correct "name" for what that
element is no matter what it is called in any language (in English, Gold).
Antiopa is the correct term for the animal no matter what it is called in
any language.

Ron Gatrelle,
taxonomist, zoologist, ordained minister, certified prosthetic dental
technician,
author, speaker, teacher. I get paid to do all of these.



 
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From Guy_VdP at t-online.de  Sat Jul 14 04:49:34 2001
From: Guy_VdP at t-online.de (Guy Van de Poel & A. Kalus)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:49:34 +0200
Subject: BUTTERFLYS FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS
Message-ID: <008a01c10c41$e8cad8e0$411458d9@server>

Two examples about nature conservation in Flanders:

Our largest wood: 30 km long and whopping 30 *m* large: the
(never-completed) central section of the freeway Brussels-Antwerp.

Flemish way of protecting the woods: just build a new freeway which crosses
a wood, than you have two woods ...

List of *all* the butterfly species of the village I grew up in (Tisselt,
near Mechelen):

Pieris brassicae (rare)
Pieris rapae
Pieris napi

Araschnia levana
Inachis io
Aglais urticae
Polygonia c-album
Vanessa atalanta

Pararge aegeria

Two species I found about 20 years ago, no longer seen the last couple of
years:

Lasiommata megera
Polyommatus icarus

Those are normally ubiquitists, and maybe I just overlooked them.

If you want to see how the rest of the world will look like in some years,
visit Flanders !!!
(and don't be fooled: it does look very green, though very monotonous)
And you should understand that the butterflies are merely indicators.

Guy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Parcelles,Jr. <rjparcelles at yahoo.com>
To: Leps-List <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; LEPSrUS <LEPSrUS at listbot.com>
Cc: Don Stillwaugh <Blandingi at aol.com>
Date: woensdag 27 juni 2001 1:02
Subject: BUTTERFLYS FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS


>GREETINGS:-)
>
>I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE OF INTEREST.
>
>Bob Parcelles Jr.
>Pinellas Park, FL
>
>BUTTERFLIES FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS
>Northern Belgium is the European hot spot for
>butterfly extinction.
>21 June 2001
>http://www.nature.com/nsu/010621/010621-11.html
>
>
>
>=====
>Bob Parcelles, Jr
>Pinellas Park, FL
>RJP Associates <rjpassociates at yahoo.com>
>rjparcelles at yahoo.com
>http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876
> "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
>                       --William Shakespeare
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
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>


 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Sat Jul 14 05:02:26 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 05:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Leaves
References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279D99@hqmail.gensym.com>
Message-ID: <26756-3B500AA2-4@storefull-124.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Neat, I also am fascinated by leaves, what diversity. Not only trees,
but ferns and tiny little plants that grow close to the ground.
Something else that may seem a little weird, is if you are ever caught
in the woods in a rain storm, take time to notice the different sounds
the rain makes as it hits the various kinds of trees.
    On a sad note also, there is an American Elm in my driveway that is
losing leaves this year and undoubtedly is dying from the devastating
Dutch Elm Disease. There used to be real giants around here, some three
feet across at the base, but you don't see them like that much any more.
I grew up on Long Island and I too remember seeing lot by lot of wooded
areas disappear. The only positive thing I can remember about it was
sometimes the bulldozed lots would sit for a few years before being
built upon and they would grow up with weeds and make a temporary place
to hunt for butterflies.  
 


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net  Sat Jul 14 09:31:50 2001
From: herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net (herschel.raney at conwaycorp.net)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:31:50 -0500
Subject: The Namings
Message-ID: <3B500376.12540.758DDB0@localhost>

Oh, I hesitate, and then I don?t. To speak of naming. And the taxonomic 
way. Anyone who looks at butterflies and plants and dragonflies out in 
that mutating force we call the world wants for a name for each thing. 
Some tag that puts it rightly in the mind. And there are so many. And 
taxonomists do base their naming on the best science they have. It 
results in fighting, such passion as this. The passion to apply the name 
that is the ?truth?. The truth about origination and time for each beast 
and bud. And that huge rulebook of taxonomy is the catalog of rules that 
brings the patterning process itself into order. Structures and color go 
here, just so. If you follow this set of pathways then your name will be 
the right name. And this may be. Until we know the coded tricks that 
made the colors shift, that made the genitalia fold and sharpen, that made 
the seabird swing right instead of left at that particular star?perhaps 
they are the best we have. But certainly once the coding is unfurled, 
once the jumps and splices that time and nature played upon are written 
out and we sit back and go ?ahhh, I see?, then the best rules are still 
guesses.  And we will cling to what we have. The ordering of the birds 
has been all blasted around by some men with devices for measuring the 
DNA separation points. Boiling pressured pots and slippery codelines all 
pumped up together with the millions of years of shift and play, 
reconnection and breakage all brought down to one notation in 
Fahrenheit. The reordering evidence is there. The first bird in our US 
birdbook should be the Chachalaca. These are men of science, trying to 
get it right. And damn, I believe them, looking at the Chachalaca running 
up a tree in Santa Ana. Surely to God that thing is more ancient than a 
Loon. The bones and feathers fooled us. But not one guide has shifted 
to the new order. Can the visual lines of evidence be so crotchety? 
Change hurts even when it smells of truth.

We are upstarts. We humans, I mean. Just 15 thousand years in North 
America. 15 million years ago at least 9 species of horses romped across 
Florida. We were not there to name them. We named their bones. 
Someone else may rename ours. We (and the consequences of our 
needs) are the most important force at work today in the world of 
destruction and natural choice. The first great force in nature with a 
conscience. I suppose we should be the namers too. But there will be 
arguments.

One day we will have the entire code, every letter and link of DNA. 
Taxonomists argue that their book is the one. Developmental 
Embryologists argue they are the ones. The Code book for the DNA of 
all the world?s butterflies (the ones that are left) will eventually be 
available. We will say, ?Now we know the names?. Papilio glaucus, that 
lovely Swallowtail with the Y chromosome that occasionally makes a 
Black Tiger (now that is a name) may become PGLine 8, tangle flip 3,Y 
shift/Guanine 456. And there will be men who fight for everyone to call 
out this name when they find one out there in the wild. The new name is 
the one. It reflects all we can know about this creature. Our namings must 
have order. And I will cherish the new understanding of things. But I will 
still point with my finger at the buttonbush or the lily, at the fluttering 
dark wonder upon it and whisper in my daughter?s ear, ?there, right 
there, goes another Black Tiger?. 


		Herschel Raney
		Conway, Arkansas

 
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From cavalconte at mindspring.com  Sat Jul 14 13:53:24 2001
From: cavalconte at mindspring.com (cavalconte at mindspring.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:53:24 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.995133204.0.26725800@springmail.com>


"A rose by any other name......."
                       ---Bill Shakespeare
"....I want to hear...the scream...of...the...butterfly...."
                       ---Jim Morrison

Well, if the butterflies could talk, what would they say....


"Hi.  I'm Speyeria idalia.  Most of you know me as the "regal fritillary", but it makes no difference to me. You call the native people of my homeland "Indians" but they don't come from India, do they?. You see, I live in the tallgrass praries of the Great Plains. Those "Indians" maintained the land in the a way that made it very easy to live with them.  No wonder, in the east, they believed that seeing the silvery spots on the wings of my cousin Speyeria cybele would bring good fortune.
But once, I soared over farmland, wet meadows, coastal grasslands and prarie remnants throughout the Northeast too.  You see, Man changed the land there many many years ago, and I was able to move into new territory and prosper.  Man changed the land again, but very rapidly, and it caught me by surprise.  So I did what the movie stars now do....I spent my summers on Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket, Block Island and New York's tony "Hamptons".  But the last ferry left without me, and I was stranded.  I got cut off and crowded out as the land in these precious places changed again, and now....my only home the the northeast is on a Pennsylvania military reservation, where my sorry little lepidopteran butt may soon be flattened permanently by rolling tanks. 

----Or----

Howdy y'all.  Eacles imperialis here.  Southerners know us well as the "imperial moth", or more often as "that huge yellow thing on the screen"  and my scary spiny caterpillar twirled the parasol of many a mint-julep-sippin' southern belle, on the back porch, back in the day.  
Now you're not gonna believe this one, colonel, but I once had some Yankee cousins!   That's right, pale, skinny-legged New Englanders on beaches and campsites all through the old colonies had the same reaction to my Yankee kin....many years ago....but now, we prefer to stay down below the Mason Dixon line, thank you very much.  Oh, sure, we may it up to the Jersey shore pretty often.  But those damn Yankees....just as soon as we hit a good patch of host-rich habitat (we have APPETITES, y'know)...nice pitch pine/scrub oak barren, rich oak/hickory or beech/maple forest, even a tasty little roadside patch o'sassafras..... why the Yankees come along and whack up a shopping mall, or some smoke-belching factory...or....they start dumpin crazy stuff like DDT, or some durn bacteria all over us, to get rid of those dang Gypsies! .  Why in Massachusetts, they went right ahead and called us a species of "special concern', cause, expect for a few kin hanging on out right now on Martha's !
!
Vineyard, we've been gone from there for, gosh, maybe fifty-year, if a day. 
And y'now, our Dixie cousins Citheronia regalis feel the same way.  Oh you know them....some folk call 'em the "regal moth' old timers prefer "royal walnut moth" and well....still other fools say "hickory horned devil"....but ....they don't give a hot-dang what YOU call'em...they're stayin' down in the land of cotton for good.....except for a litte gamblin at Atlantic City....why they're fit to be hog tied... red-orange-yellow mad! Stayin away from northern parts too...and who could blame 'em.  one of their favorite snacks, Juglans cinera...er,  butternut to you, buster......got a mean blight, and they're dying off too! So my regal brother is happy to stick with our sweet southern persimmons ( that's Diospyros virginiana, cuz).  And my poor little buddy, Hemiluca maia, y'know...that dapper little Buck Moth....well, that ol boy is pretty peeved too...we call his story the "Amityville Horror", cause he only comes callin' around Halloween time, and that scary little Long Island t!
!
own is one of the last places ol Buck will trick-or-treat!  Why, do you know his type specimen was described from Flatbush, Brooklyn, where the ol' barrens there once had a bounty of "kwur-ih-cuss- eye-silly-foe-lee-yuh", as the Brooklyners say, but now, thy're hoppin' the #2 Subway back to Penn Station for the LIRR back home, I dare say...and who can blame us.  Well, the south will rise again.....


(Sorry, but "Mitchell's Marsh Satyr" and "Karner Blue" could not be reached for comment)




Ron Gatrelle <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org> wrote:
> Anne Kilmer wrotesnip
>  ...with the mutability of scientific names, at the mercy
> of lumpers and splitters...


Mutable: "given to changing, or constantly changing."
Immutable: "unchanging, unalterable, changeless."

There is a big difference between knowing enough to be a good editor and
being creative enough to be a good author, being able to write a song but
not sing it, conduct the music but not play or create it.  I have written
hundreds of articles and several booklets - all non leps (including a local
weekly newspaper column for two years, which I quit because it was too much
work). My editors always love my material and punchy style but hate my
grammar, punctuation, spelling.  I needed them, they made me look literate.

Some of the dumbest people I know have a lot of knowledge or can spell real
good. Knowledge, wisdom, insight, understanding - different animals.
Knowledge is cheep - its a dime a dozen. Wisdom is rare - it can't be
faked.  Insight is what makes great councilors great - others don't like
what it sees in them.  To understand - is to have arrived.

To let Anne's statements (made in her usual cutesy but sarcastic way) slide
by is to give everyone else the impression that I have bowed my head, been
put in my place, and acquiesced to the higher power.  She is very wrong and
does not have the faintest idea what she is talking about when it comes to
"scientific names" and how they function. She does not understand.

Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of Zoological
Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth about
taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it works.
Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The International Code
of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability to organic
defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors often
work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.

Gochfeld also posted recently that, " Ron, we've been down the name line
often before. A scientific name is NO MORE OR LESS correct [than a common
name] and certainly no more stable over time than any other name which
people bestow on what they think they understand as what may be a species
(or other level taxon)."

To this I say that we obviously have not been down it far enough or long
enough because people still just don't it - understand.

At this point I do not even know if it is worth going into it. I have sat
on this post for awhile wondering if I should even post this much. Then
there is issue of space on a list like this.

I have a question line for the people who want to discuss taxonomy and its
nomenclatorial procedures. Do you own a copy of the ICZN (bible), have you
read it, do you understand it, have you ever or do you work with it, is it
a familiar every day tool to you? If not you are like a guy off the street
putting on boxing gloves and getting in ring with Mike Tyson. A person with
no license getting behind the wheel of a car. There are many
entomology professors who don't know about _doing_ taxonomy.

An organism is discoverd. It is then scientifically identified by a term
that is based on Latin OR Greek OR a combiantion of both - or neither (e.g.
an American Indian name left as is - cullasaja).

When the science of systematic nomenclature was introduced it was so
primative then that confusion was a common occurance. Many original
descriptions were very brief and not accompanied by even a cartoonist
painting - we were like babies learning to walk. Many of these are also so
rare and obscure that some later workers did not even know they existed or
if so, where to find them. But the system was brilliant.

Our example will be Papilio ajax.  After its coining it was found that when
the word ajax was applied (in 1758) that several different butterflies
were unknowingly included under this epithet.  Eventually no one could tell
to which it actually was affixed!
Arguments over ajax ensued. Finally, it was wisely decided that we could
never know to which organism that term was meant to apply. The scientific
community went to court so to speak and ruled that rather than apply ajax
improperly, ajax was banned in regard to several species of swallowtails
involved - glaucus, marcellus, asterius, troilus.  So how were these "ajax"
to now be known?  What NEW names were given to these?  NONE.
1) It was never known in the first place what "ajax" was referring
to so technically NO SINGLE butterfly was ever named this.
 2) A new name was not sought. Rather an OLD name. Taxonomic names very
rarely move FORWARD. If something is found defective -
a nomen nudum, nomen dubium - the taxonomist MUST make a search for the
oldest available name and he AND ALL OTHERS MUST use that one valid name.
(There are exceptions and the new edition strongly leans to preserving
names held in long usage. This is a very complicated and legalistic process
that I am nutshelling.)

That is the immutable goal of the system - find the oldest and stick with
it forever. What ever the oldest available and valid word-term for a
subspecies/species that is its name forever. Sometimes we are still finding
that occasionally a name WE have been using (say turnus 1771), is the NEW
name and that we  should have been using the OLDER name (here glaucus) as
THAT is the correct name by the Code. Glaucus is The immutable epithet -
which is why we HAD to RETURN to it.  Nothing changed - popular
workers had just screwed up by using the incorrect name - turnus.

This is like a child born and being given to the wrong parent at birth.
The child was born a Smith - but (because of human error) its first
10 years was spent as a Jones. When the mistake was realized the
child was given to its proper parents and is now know correctly
as Smith. The friends who only knew it as Jones would (ignorantly)
say, Oh you have a NEW name. The child would say, no I have found
my OLD and REAL name. They of course, would not _understand_
because of what they did not know. Some might still want to,
and would,  call him/her Jones.

This applies to genus names often. All butterflies were once just genus
Papilio. Eventually we saw that was wrong. Wrong how?  Because evolution
had not made them all Papilio. The taxonomist could call them a "term" he
chose (within the rules) but HAD to categorize them in groups as
God and evolution made them.  This gave rise to hairstreaks becoming
Thecla rather then Papilio. This lumping was found incorrect also.
Now, there are still Thecla but only the ones evolutionally related to
the FIRST taxon in that genus to which the genus label Thecla was
affixed. Thecla, like Papilio, is the immutable epithet for their
respective
genera. When new genera are discovered (uncovered) the proper evolutionary
units MUST be placed in (moved to) them. When a species is transferred to
another genus it is simply the scientifically demanded aligning of
nomenclature with what nature has made - the original parent.

I'll quit here. There is nothing capricious about scientific terms (unlike
common names).  What the lay person sees as random mutable name changes are
not such at all. They are REQUIRED adjustment to bring the system to its
immutalble conslusion (for this time and space).  The name appalachia
affixed to that organism in the southern US we commonly call the
Appalachian Brown will never change ever - it can't be. It is immutable as
that is the only and oldest scientific term available to it. The common
name can, and likely will, be changed many times in the next thousand
years. But not appalachia. It will stay in Satyroides too and can only be
MOVED (not "renamed") to a different genus if the evolutionary evidence
says that is where it belongs.

Bottom line. 1) Species/subspecies level. A newly discovered animal is
given a new name - within very strict parameters of the ICZN naming
process.  This is (basically) the only time we get "new" names. A named
animal that we have known as xus for twenty years suddenly appears as wus
in the popular literature - the uneducated see this as a new name. It is
not - it is a return to an older name - the original immutable one.  2) A
transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all "experts" and so more
than one alignment may be found. However, the original epithet given to the
individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable epithets or
from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will provide an
everlasting unchanging nomenclature. Scientific IDs (commonly called names)
are the only correct class of labels for animals, plants, and minerals.
Common names aren't.  Au   is and will be the correct "name" for what that
element is no matter what it is called in any language (in English, Gold).
Antiopa is the correct term for the animal no matter what it is called in
any language.

Ron Gatrelle,
taxonomist, zoologist, ordained minister, certified prosthetic dental
technician,
author, speaker, teacher. I get paid to do all of these.




 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

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From kennk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul 14 15:42:02 2001
From: kennk at ix.netcom.com (Kenn Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:42:02 -0700
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <005f01c10c9d$0ef94320$6bdb323f@default>


I'm not opposed to art or philosophy, and if you're being
artistic or philosophical then you can refer to a butterfly
(or any other organism) by any name you like.  (I took
some young naturalists to northeastern Mexico a few
years ago, and these kids applied the name "Crimson
Prophet of Doom" to what I was calling Biblis hyperia.
Sure, why not?)

BUT -- if you want to communicate on a scientific level
-- read Ron's post below.  Don't proof-read it, don't
quibble with the grammar, just read what he's saying.
He nails the reasons why scientific names are, in fact,
more valid than anyone's vernacular names.

Kenn Kaufman
kennk at ix.netcom.com
Tucson, Arizona


-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Gatrelle <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: Leps-l <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; Carolina Leps <carolinaleps at duke.edu>
Cc: TAXACOM <taxacom at usobi.org>
Date: Saturday, July 14, 2001 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: And what is in a name?


>Anne Kilmer wrote
>snip
>>  ...with the mutability of scientific names, at the mercy
>> of lumpers and splitters...
>
>
>Mutable: "given to changing, or constantly changing."
>Immutable: "unchanging, unalterable, changeless."
>
>There is a big difference between knowing enough to be a good editor and
>being creative enough to be a good author, being able to write a song but
>not sing it, conduct the music but not play or create it.  I have written
>hundreds of articles and several booklets - all non leps (including a local
>weekly newspaper column for two years, which I quit because it was too much
>work). My editors always love my material and punchy style but hate my
>grammar, punctuation, spelling.  I needed them, they made me look literate.
>
>Some of the dumbest people I know have a lot of knowledge or can spell real
>good. Knowledge, wisdom, insight, understanding - different animals.
>Knowledge is cheep - its a dime a dozen. Wisdom is rare - it can't be
>faked.  Insight is what makes great councilors great - others don't like
>what it sees in them.  To understand - is to have arrived.
>
>To let Anne's statements (made in her usual cutesy but sarcastic way) slide
>by is to give everyone else the impression that I have bowed my head, been
>put in my place, and acquiesced to the higher power.  She is very wrong and
>does not have the faintest idea what she is talking about when it comes to
>"scientific names" and how they function. She does not understand.
>
>Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of Zoological
>Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth about
>taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it works.
>Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The International Code
>of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability to organic
>defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors often
>work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.
>
>Gochfeld also posted recently that, " Ron, we've been down the name line
>often before. A scientific name is NO MORE OR LESS correct [than a common
>name] and certainly no more stable over time than any other name which
>people bestow on what they think they understand as what may be a species
>(or other level taxon)."
>
>To this I say that we obviously have not been down it far enough or long
>enough because people still just don't it - understand.
>
>At this point I do not even know if it is worth going into it. I have sat
>on this post for awhile wondering if I should even post this much. Then
>there is issue of space on a list like this.
>
>I have a question line for the people who want to discuss taxonomy and its
>nomenclatorial procedures. Do you own a copy of the ICZN (bible), have you
>read it, do you understand it, have you ever or do you work with it, is it
>a familiar every day tool to you? If not you are like a guy off the street
>putting on boxing gloves and getting in ring with Mike Tyson. A person with
>no license getting behind the wheel of a car. There are many
>entomology professors who don't know about _doing_ taxonomy.
>
>An organism is discoverd. It is then scientifically identified by a term
>that is based on Latin OR Greek OR a combiantion of both - or neither (e.g.
>an American Indian name left as is - cullasaja).
>
>When the science of systematic nomenclature was introduced it was so
>primative then that confusion was a common occurance. Many original
>descriptions were very brief and not accompanied by even a cartoonist
>painting - we were like babies learning to walk. Many of these are also so
>rare and obscure that some later workers did not even know they existed or
>if so, where to find them. But the system was brilliant.
>
>Our example will be Papilio ajax.  After its coining it was found that when
>the word ajax was applied (in 1758) that several different butterflies
>were unknowingly included under this epithet.  Eventually no one could tell
>to which it actually was affixed!
>Arguments over ajax ensued. Finally, it was wisely decided that we could
>never know to which organism that term was meant to apply. The scientific
>community went to court so to speak and ruled that rather than apply ajax
>improperly, ajax was banned in regard to several species of swallowtails
>involved - glaucus, marcellus, asterius, troilus.  So how were these "ajax"
>to now be known?  What NEW names were given to these?  NONE.
>1) It was never known in the first place what "ajax" was referring
>to so technically NO SINGLE butterfly was ever named this.
> 2) A new name was not sought. Rather an OLD name. Taxonomic names very
>rarely move FORWARD. If something is found defective -
>a nomen nudum, nomen dubium - the taxonomist MUST make a search for the
>oldest available name and he AND ALL OTHERS MUST use that one valid name.
>(There are exceptions and the new edition strongly leans to preserving
>names held in long usage. This is a very complicated and legalistic process
>that I am nutshelling.)
>
>That is the immutable goal of the system - find the oldest and stick with
>it forever. What ever the oldest available and valid word-term for a
>subspecies/species that is its name forever. Sometimes we are still finding
>that occasionally a name WE have been using (say turnus 1771), is the NEW
>name and that we  should have been using the OLDER name (here glaucus) as
>THAT is the correct name by the Code. Glaucus is The immutable epithet -
>which is why we HAD to RETURN to it.  Nothing changed - popular
>workers had just screwed up by using the incorrect name - turnus.
>
>This is like a child born and being given to the wrong parent at birth.
>The child was born a Smith - but (because of human error) its first
>10 years was spent as a Jones. When the mistake was realized the
>child was given to its proper parents and is now know correctly
>as Smith. The friends who only knew it as Jones would (ignorantly)
>say, Oh you have a NEW name. The child would say, no I have found
>my OLD and REAL name. They of course, would not _understand_
>because of what they did not know. Some might still want to,
>and would,  call him/her Jones.
>
>This applies to genus names often. All butterflies were once just genus
>Papilio. Eventually we saw that was wrong. Wrong how?  Because evolution
>had not made them all Papilio. The taxonomist could call them a "term" he
>chose (within the rules) but HAD to categorize them in groups as
>God and evolution made them.  This gave rise to hairstreaks becoming
>Thecla rather then Papilio. This lumping was found incorrect also.
>Now, there are still Thecla but only the ones evolutionally related to
>the FIRST taxon in that genus to which the genus label Thecla was
>affixed. Thecla, like Papilio, is the immutable epithet for their
>respective
>genera. When new genera are discovered (uncovered) the proper evolutionary
>units MUST be placed in (moved to) them. When a species is transferred to
>another genus it is simply the scientifically demanded aligning of
>nomenclature with what nature has made - the original parent.
>
>I'll quit here. There is nothing capricious about scientific terms (unlike
>common names).  What the lay person sees as random mutable name changes are
>not such at all. They are REQUIRED adjustment to bring the system to its
>immutalble conslusion (for this time and space).  The name appalachia
>affixed to that organism in the southern US we commonly call the
>Appalachian Brown will never change ever - it can't be. It is immutable as
>that is the only and oldest scientific term available to it. The common
>name can, and likely will, be changed many times in the next thousand
>years. But not appalachia. It will stay in Satyroides too and can only be
>MOVED (not "renamed") to a different genus if the evolutionary evidence
>says that is where it belongs.
>
>Bottom line. 1) Species/subspecies level. A newly discovered animal is
>given a new name - within very strict parameters of the ICZN naming
>process.  This is (basically) the only time we get "new" names. A named
>animal that we have known as xus for twenty years suddenly appears as wus
>in the popular literature - the uneducated see this as a new name. It is
>not - it is a return to an older name - the original immutable one.  2) A
>transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
>change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
>understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all "experts" and so more
>than one alignment may be found. However, the original epithet given to the
>individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
>adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable epithets or
>from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will provide an
>everlasting unchanging nomenclature. Scientific IDs (commonly called names)
>are the only correct class of labels for animals, plants, and minerals.
>Common names aren't.  Au   is and will be the correct "name" for what that
>element is no matter what it is called in any language (in English, Gold).
>Antiopa is the correct term for the animal no matter what it is called in
>any language.
>
>Ron Gatrelle,
>taxonomist, zoologist, ordained minister, certified prosthetic dental
>technician,
>author, speaker, teacher. I get paid to do all of these.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sat Jul 14 16:37:32 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:37:32 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <Springmail.105.995133204.0.26725800@springmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301c10ca4$cf65a700$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

The below is an entirely different subject than names... or is it?  See
below.
Though it is apples and grapes, cavalconte's comments are some pretty fine
sour grapes to go with my sour apples. I hate to delete any of both.  But
most who will read this have already read both or can re-open them. Taxacom
in particular limits not only the number of posts per person per day but
also length. Thus, much snipping.

---- Original Message -----
From: <cavalconte at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: And what is in a name?>
> "A rose by any other name......."
>                        ---Bill Shakespeare
> "....I want to hear...the scream...of...the...butterfly...."
>                        ---Jim Morrison

This is saying that while we argue about epithets if we don't get more
involved with habitat protection all we will be talking about is epitaphs.
Or, quit talking and put out the fire!!!!

snip
> Well, if the butterflies could talk, what would they say....
snip
> Howdy y'all.  Eacles imperialis here.  Southerners know us well as the
"imperial moth", or more often as "that huge yellow thing on the screen"
and my scary spiny caterpillar twirled the parasol of many a
mint-julep-sippin' southern belle, on the back porch, back in the day.
> Now you're not gonna believe this one, colonel, but I once had some
Yankee cousins!   That's right, pale, skinny-legged New Englanders on
beaches and campsites all through the old colonies had the same reaction to
my Yankee kin....many years ago....but now, we prefer to stay down below
the Mason Dixon line, thank you very much
________________

new stuff from Ron:
To a southerner where the Imperial Moth sill reigns, it is hard to
comprehend the loss of this moth in the northeast. As a person who is both
concerned about the well being of organisms and understands systematics - I
can only point a finger to the moth-ers who so many of are proud hyper
lumpers who distain the subspecies syndrome. I am saddened to think of the
many valid subspecies going undescribed - only to end up with no-name, no
identity, no matter, no more. Not to mention the future evolutionary
entities that will never exist due to these unknown extinctions of
potential parents.

Eacles imperialis imperialis is the subspecies in the northeastern US. It
exists as a subspecies only in the northeast US and down the Appalachians
(same range as most northern subspecies of many butterflies, skippers and
moths). Then in cline of intermediates along the eastern seaboard to the
southern (ignored) subspecies Eacles imperialis imperatoria (Smith, 1797 -
as adopted by Ferguson 1971,  per ICZN 45.6.4.1- etc.). This subspecies is
found across the deep South inc. Florida.

Here,  cavalconte@, is where taxonomic names are very relevant. We can not,
and will not, protect that which we do not know. Imperialis of the South is
NOT Imperialis of the north. THIS taxonomic understanding provides the
single greatest legal reason to see imperialis imperialis as threatened -
for what is common in the south is imperialis imperatoria. A rose by any
other name? Not so. Shakespeare sure had a way with words, but he didn't
know squat about Roses. There is sure a lot of difference between Rosa
bracteata, canina, carolina, damascena, eglanteria, gallica, laevigata,
micrantha, multiflora, palustris, setigera.... not to mention villosa,
lyoni, floridana etc. There would be no endangered ros-es if all there was
was a rose.

Back to imperialis. In MONA (Moth of America North of Mexico) Ferguson
establishes that imperatoria is NOT a seasonal form  "Study of a large
sample from coastal South Carolina, where the species is double brooded,
shows that the variation color is not seasonal."  Imperialis as a "form" is
uncommon in subspecies imperatoria and "form" imperatoria is virtually
unknown in subspecies imperialis.

So, you want to protect Imperial Moth?  Or any other animal or plant? Then
one must determine just what it is. Which means you environmentalist need
us taxonomic geeks after all.

Ron Gatrelle
http://tils-ttr.org




 
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 14 18:07:20 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:07:20 -0600
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <002601c10cb1$6cf00ae0$b162a58e@allez123>

I think I started this thread, but who knows anymore.  Yes, I like common
names - the vernacular - better than Latin.  They are much easier for me to
learn and remember than Latinized nomenclature.  However, this should not be
taken as an argument against any of the well thought-out and lucidly
presented points that Ron Gatrelle has graced us with.

Recently, an escapee has made its way from the Bahamas all the way here to
the north country - Saskatchewan.  The Eurasian Collared Dove.  So it is
named in bird books printed in North America.  In European books it is
called the Collared Dove.  Why am I certain that it is the same bird?  The
Latin name for both the Eurasian Collared Dove and the Collared Dove is
Streptopelia decaocto in all books.

Streptopelia decaocto is not an aide-memoire to me, Collared Dove is.  It's
the pigeon with the black ring on the back of its neck where the neck meets
the rest of the bird's body.

I suspect that one hundred years ago the study of butterflies was sufficient
for an amateur.  Amateur: Personne qui aime, cultive, recherche.  A French
word that means someone who loves, cultivates, studies.  Today, an amateur
most not only study, but also protect.

When Martin Luther translated the Bible from Latin to the vernacular, he
consciously broke the monopoly on sacred understanding by a self-indulgent
elite and spread to all those who wanted learn as well as feel.

If butterflies are to be protected from the ravages of what is so often
called progress, there must be a political will to do so.  Given that there
precious few dollars to be made in butterfly study.. or even in butterfly
"farming" I do not see those interested in butterflies being an economic
power capable of lobbying governments.  Increased legislation aimed at
protecting butterflies will only come from a mass constituent hammering on
the doors of elected power.  Hence, there is the pressing need for those who
study Lepidoptera to become inclusive in attitude and not a self-indulgent
elite.  They do not have economic power.  They must reach out to as many
people as possible.  They must decrease impediments to learning and
appreciation.  Agreed upon names in the vernacular have a place beside the
more exacting Latinized script.

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3




 
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From lawrence_turner at msn.com  Sat Jul 14 18:30:36 2001
From: lawrence_turner at msn.com (Lawrence Turner)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:30:36 -0700
Subject: Fremontodendron leafminer
Message-ID: <OE1568V8zDv60gxapzh00019924@hotmail.com>

Does anyone know what micros mine the leaves of Fremontodendron californica? There is a small population of these shrubs at Fort Ord, Calif., many miles from any other native Fremontias. The leaves contain a large leafmining larvae which makes a large blotch which can cover the whole leaf.
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From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu  Sun Jul 15 04:12:03 2001
From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:12:03 -0800 (AKDT)
Subject: And what is in a name?                                        
     
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.31.0107150009550.23430-100000@aurora.uaf.edu>


	Like Ron Gatrelle, I prefer to use scientific names for butterflies,
especially for the arctic species I work with--most of which lack any real
vernacular common names. Instead we have to cope with abortions like 'Four-
dotted Alpine' (for _Erebia youngi_)--which as an attempt at a descriptive
name is perhaps a bit more useful than 'Two-winged Warbler' would be for
a bird.

	However, I lack Ron's certainty about there being one 'correct'
name for a given organism. Taxonomists can disagree (about almost anything,
it would seem). What I call _Erebia youngi_, Scott calls _Erebia dabanen-
sis_. What many people call _Clossiana polaris_, others call _Boloria
polaris_--and North American and Eurasian workers disagree about many names
for holarctic species.

	The new book about the butterflies of British Columbia lumps _Clos-
siana chariclea_ and what, in North America, has been called _Clossiana
titania_ as a single species under the name _chariclea_. In Interior Alaska
these two taxa fly in the same bog habitat in the taiga--but '_titania'
flies every year in late summer, while _chariclea_ flies in odd-numbered
years in mid-summer, and is different in facies from '_titania_'. I cannot
accept these as conspecific, but Shepard fails to find this behavior any
reason for their _not_ being conspecific. So what is the 'correct' name
for these taxa? At this time I would have to say that there is disagreement
among taxonomists, pending further work.

appears to regard the ICZN as an algorithm, which, when
followed, will invariably spit out the 'correct' name. This approach
downplays the human factor, which allows the basic algorithm to produce
a number of different scientific names for the same organism.

	I still prefer the scientific name, despite all that. When working
with holarctic species, one _has_ to use scientific names in order to
communicate with people using different languages within the range of any
single species. But people in different countries may be using different
scientific names as well--the standard European checklists do not always
agree with the standard North American lists.

	Scientific names do have one advantage, however: they can be tracked
through time with the aid of synonomic catalogues. It is possible to
figure out which names used in Holland match which names used today by
going through a few catalogues. This process is much more difficult for
common names, since they often conceal the genus, and are subject to
unregulated arbitrary changes through time.

	I have not added common names to the above--after finding out that
you can use the NABA website to bring up the common names for any scientific
name, I don't see the need for adding those names to a posting concerned
only with arctic species that are unfamiliar to many people by _any_ name.
Anyone I know who works with these species will know them as listed above.

							Ken Philip
fnkwp at uaf.edu

Gatrelle



 
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From fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu  Sun Jul 15 04:17:32 2001
From: fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu (Kenelm Philip)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:17:32 -0800 (AKDT)
Subject: And what is in a name? (corrrection)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.31.0107150017110.23430-100000@aurora.uaf.edu>


	A function key got pressed during my posting. Please  move
'Gatrelle'
from the end of my posting to right before 'appears to regard the ICZN...'
That will make a bit more sense...

							Ken Philip
fnkwp at uaf.edu




 
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From speedshark2000 at altavista.com  Sun Jul 15 06:52:11 2001
From: speedshark2000 at altavista.com (Sharky)
Date: 15 Jul 2001 03:52:11 -0700
Subject: Thanks a lot!  - Heliconius
Message-ID: <20010715105211.5803.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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From halhed at hei.ca  Sun Jul 15 09:27:46 2001
From: halhed at hei.ca (Basil Halhed)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:27:46 GMT
Subject: New Lynn Scott Moth Images Address
Message-ID: <MPG.15bb6479b0b2bd5998968d@news.magma.ca>

The Lynn Scott Lepidoptera Images web pages have a new, roomier web 
site.  We have added new species as well, bringing the total to 111 
with more than 200 images.

The new site is at:

	http://www.heiconsulting.com/dls/mothindex.html


Please bookmark the new web pages and remove references to the old 
site which will be turned down in late September.

Regards,

Lynn Scott 

e-mail: lynnscott at heiconsulting.com

 
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From MexicoDoug at aol.com  Sun Jul 15 12:49:51 2001
From: MexicoDoug at aol.com (MexicoDoug at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:49:51 EDT
Subject: butterflying in Mexico
Message-ID: <7e.17c698a4.288323af@aol.com>

En un mensaje con fecha 07/15/2001 8:51:02 AM Central Daylight Time, 
NOSPAM at yahoo.com (Dave Fallow) escribe:

Doug -- saw your post on the LEPS list.  Curious if you live in Monterrey 
year-round or are just visiting?  I would like to get a better handle (than 
virtually none!) on Mexican butterflies.  Do you have any recommendations on 
how to ID them, ie through binoculars rather than with a net?  I believe 
there's not a single field guide that covers them adequately...Any ideas 
appreciated.  Thanks, Dave Fallow in Wisconsin >>


Hi Dave,

Hope you consider it appropriate, as I thought you question was pretty 
appropriate for the list...

I live here in Mexico and have for the past 7 years, here are some of my 
thoughts, though from Wisconsin it could get tricky...

Your question sort of treats Mexico as if it were a single region, while of 
course it is more diverse than the US, both in fauna (about 2,500 butterfly 
species) and in habitats.  Where I live in Monterrey the above books are are 
fine and there will always be unknowns here and there which adds to the fun.  
The practice of inventorying sightings is cultural, and I find the hobby 
never tedious on the days I don't.  As a matter of fact, I pity folks in the 
US who have so many supercharged butterfly gurus fluttering about that one 
could get so hung up in nomenclature and inventorying without ever getting 
out to do some soul-filling free format field activities.

So my notes contain dumb names like Guion4 (Guion en spanish is "Dash"), and 
even descriptive ones like Powdered Sugar-Z Roadside Skipper, names to me 
which are just as valid as any other I know, or any professionally or 
commercially coined ones.  Someday which I will discover the scientific name 
for the former, though honestly, I have no burning desire to since I already 
know the bug for my purposes and practice my hobby only for my enjoyment.

Regarding binocs, etc., I have a very impressive pair, as well as a good 
camera.  However, the binocs seem to be workout ballast as I always have them 
in the fannypack but honestly only use them just to check out occasional 
attractive joggers.  If I spend a lot of time in the field in a specific 
area, I find in practically all cases opportunities come up to approach 
butterflies and observe them unintrusively with the naked eye, even if the 
ankle hurts and the belly gets scratched by pebbles, or worse the nose 
touches carrion.  The most interesting & challenging aspect to me is to learn 
about a butterfly's behavior and ideally not even need to clearly see it so 
clearly 'on display' to recognize it.  For example, as I type this I am 
observing several fatimas.  Now while it is an easy example, it is not less 
fun to watch their nervious changing of sites, fights with other species, 
spasmodic form of flight when nectaring, and frequent coquetiveness.  All one 
sees are Tasmanian Devil (cartoon) like movements with red or white flashes 
without getting up from my strained perspective.  But if you know your area 
butterflies, they are unmistakeable.

Some food for thought:  Four years ago, I had the opportunity to go 
butterflying with a expert amateur butterfly author here.  We saw a type of 
tiger swallowtail.  Immediately he indicated it was the glaucus type and it 
was noted by our recorder.  To me that was pretty shocking, since the flight 
and size was so obviously of a three-tailed pilumnus, although something 
seemed wrong - it suggested a space shuttle type landing flight over the 
normal gracefulness...continuing with the anecdote:....I said "un uh...three 
tails!", and the now disinterested expert broke out into a boyish charge, 
camera first photographing the pilumnus as best he could - which it turns out 
had lost a good part of its three tailed rudders to some predator.

My point with the above anecdote, returning to your original question, is 
that no experts and exacting guides are needed to have a great and meaningful 
time at butterflying here.  Said expert could kick my Lepstering ass in 99% 
of the US with one eye closed when it comes to Butterfly Inventorying.

Of course, instead of general butterflying, if you are locked into "butterfly 
inventorying", to me, an afliction very different focus, which I am not 
suffering from at this moment.  Perhaps the distinction of "Butterfly 
Inventorying" vs. other Butterflying, is a topic worth discussion.  Anyhow, 
guides (or worse yet manuals) are simply crutches, and while nice, are 
certainly not required to have fun here or anywhere.  Of course, we are not 
the first generation of butterflyers nor was butterflying invented with the 
landmark Audubon Guide in the US and all of its sequels.  Invent some names 
yourself and I'm sure you'll agree.  Just don't let anyone shove them down 
anyone's throat or you just might take the fun away from them...

Anyway, that sums up a few suggestions to butterfly here or anywhere I 
suppose...if you have any specific questions, I'd be glad to give a shot at 
answering them.

Regarding guidebooks, there are a few which help, at least the last two you 
probably know quite well!

"Mariposas Mexicanas" by de la Maza
(general country, strong in central, most of the common bugs)
"Butterflies of Costa Rica" by De Vries
(A nice complement for places south of Mexico City)
"A Field Guide to Butterflies of Texas", by Neck
(Nice for the Northeast, fun to find the errors)
"Butterflies of Southeastern Arizona" by Bailowitz
"North American Butterflies" by Howe
(Good job on Mexico - here's a guy who was is a great amateur butterflier for 
Mexican stuff)
"North American Butterflies" by Scott
(Precision at its best and very helpful plates for transients)
"Audubon Guide to North American Butterflies" by Pyle
(Such as nice book, though a few errors, nice for the North)
"http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/lepid/bflyusa/bflyref.htm"
(try running this for Northern Mex, though I haven't it probably is your best 
bet for general inventorying)

Happy Butterflying.
Doug Dawn
Monterrey, Mexico
stelenes at pobox.com
Do not auto respond to MexicoDoug at aol.com.  It will die after my free access 
ends.


En un mensaje con fecha 07/15/2001 8:51:02 AM Central Daylight Time, 
dfallow at yahoo.com escribe:

<< sunto:    butterflying in Mexico
 Fecha: 07/15/2001 8:51:02 AM Central Daylight Time
 From:  @yahoo.com (Dave Fallow)
 To:    MexicoDoug
 
 
 Doug -- saw your post on the LEPS list.  Curious if
 you live in Monterrey year-round or are just visiting?
  I would like to get a better handle (than virtually
 none!) on Mexican butterflies.  Do you have any
 recommendations on how to ID them, ie through
 binoculars rather than with a net?  I believe there's
 not a single field guide that covers them
 adequately...Any ideas appreciated.  Thanks,
                               Dave Fallow in Wisconsin >>

 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Sun Jul 15 16:00:28 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:00:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: collecting?
Message-ID: <11575-3B51F65C-52@storefull-123.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

 I've begun a collection of moths and butterflies. Feeling too guilty to
hunt, catch and kill specimens, I have found that roadsides and parking
lots have many species injured by automobiles. So I keep my eyes open
and so far in just two weeks, have a red admiral, hybrid admiral,
mourning cloak, two tiger swallowtails, aphrodite fritillary, and I've
actually just in the last couple days have been actively looking. The
hybrid admiral by the way, I found as I was sitting outdside during
breaktime at work and a delivery truck pulled up and parked a few feet
from me and it was stuck in the grill so I picked it off and it was in
extremely good condition, but quite dead.
   I did find another tiger swallowtail that was in really good shape
and it seemed ok, just dazed, so I put it on some milkweed not too far
away. 


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Sun Jul 15 18:41:42 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:41:42 -0400
Subject: The Code---mutable or not
In-Reply-To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle@tils-ttr.org>
        "Re: And what is in a name?" (Jul 14,  4:33am)
References: <000901c10a2d$5f739160$ce62a58e@allez123> 
	<3B4DA616.2F1788F@tnc.org>  <3B4DBDA4.5BFA0B65@anu.ie> 
	<004f01c10c3f$99514e40$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <1010715184147.ZM15478@Gochfeld>

At the risk of incurring Mary Beth's wrath. 

Ron wrote: 
Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of Zoological
Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth about
taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it works.
Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The International 
Code of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability to 
organic defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors often
work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.
==================
There's something almost biblical in that proclamation (is that an 
accident, Ron?). 

But it's important to recognize that the code itself is mutable. It 
changes (albeit ponderously) to reflect the state of the cultures of 
systematics, taxonomy, and nomenclature, which are NOT AT ALL the same 
thing. 

Systematics is the study of the relationships

Taxonomy is the practice of classifying things (not necessarily by 
relationships. Read for example the numerical taxonomists who were 
primarily entomologists)

Nomenclature is the practice of giving names.  

The discussion has really been about nomenclature in the hope (held to 
differing degrees by the various discussants) that it reflects 
relationships. 

The code is primarily about nomenclature. As I read it taxonomy is only 
the underpinning. 

Mike Gochfeld


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sun Jul 15 18:50:40 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:50:40 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?                                             
References: <Pine.OSF.4.31.0107150009550.23430-100000@aurora.uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <002c01c10d80$92c14840$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenelm Philip" <fnkwp at aurora.alaska.edu>
Subject: Re: And what is in a name?
snip
> However, I lack Ron's certainty about there being one 'correct'
> name for a given organism. Taxonomists can disagree (about almost
> anything, it would seem). What I call _Erebia youngi_, Scott calls _
> Erebia dabanen-sis_. What many people call _Clossiana polaris_,
> others call _Boloria polaris_--and North American and Eurasian
> workers disagree about many names for holarctic species.
>
> The new book about the butterflies of British Columbia lumps _Clos-
> siana chariclea_ and what, in North America, has been called _Clossiana
> titania_ as a single species under the name _chariclea_. In Interior
> Alaska these two taxa fly in the same bog habitat in the taiga--but
> '_titania' flies every year in late summer, while _chariclea_ flies in
> odd-numbered years in mid-summer, and is different in facies from
> '_titania_'. I cannot accept these as conspecific, but Shepard fails to
> find this behavior any reason for their _not_ being conspecific.
> So what is the 'correct' name for these taxa? At this time I would
> have to say that there is disagreement among taxonomists, pending
> further work.
__________________________

These good examples are precisely what throw people off. The "fault" in the
above does not lie in systematics or the ICZN Code etc. It lies in the fact
that 1) individuals are writing broad "popular" books who are not expert on
every single taxa they cover. The problem is that so-n-so does not know
what he is talking about in some places and is right on the money (even
ahead of the game) in others. THIS CAN NOT BE AVOIDED. No one is that up on
every single critter. So, let's not attribute human error (a drunk driver)
as being the fault of the vehicle or its manufacturer (Volvo). For the
topic here, let's QUIT attributing.   2) Specialists may be in honest
disagreement on generic placement or specific placement, but at the lowest
level (subspecies) there would have to be agreement. (I am not talking here
about agreement that X is or is not a valid subspecies.) This is still a
human element and not a result of the system. Boy, am I pressed for space
here! Example, I hope, later.

Every name should be lined up properly at the subspecific level (which is
the level below most current common names=species). I feel I have not yet
properly communicated something. The word "correct" in my primary usage, is
not relative to turnus vs. glaucus NOR Mourning Cloak vs. Camberwell
Beauty.  It relates to a correct system - names based on science vs. an
incorrect system - names based on cultural and linguistic whims.  There is
an absolute correct scientific "name" for everything, WE have just not
figured out what they all are yet or settled all the individual arguments.

The Linnaean system and the ICZN, ICBN etc. are masterpieces. Once the
light really goes on to what these actually are in structure and function
they take on enormous import and solicit our submission and deepest
respect. We, and the "names" it allows us to create, are subject to it.
Whereas in common names they are totally subject to us.

Got to wrap this up. Xus is a genus; wus is a taxon and gus in a taxon
everyone knows this. But, some say it is
Xus wus and Xus gus    (two species)
others that it is Xus wus wus and Xus wus gus (one species two subspecies)
others Xus gus gus and Xus gus wus.   (ditto, different combination)

Lots of changes there right? Nope. wus is always wus and gus is always gus
as an individual taxon. The combinations change but the same "name" is
always fixed to the same biological entity - at the lowest level it is
immutable. Another example.

Some say troilus is in genus Papilio
Some say troilus is in genus Pterourus (me for one)
Which?
That is by in large the wrong question if you understand the system.

The Genus level name Pterourus is forever tied to the species name troilus
because Scudder in 1871 introduced Pterourus with troilus as its biological
type species. Thus - and I hope this is communicating  - troilus will
always be a Pterourus and Pterourus will always be a troilus. Glaucus,
palamedes etc. (others now placed in this genus Pterourus) may be moved to
other genera or others added in the future - but Pterourus and troilus are
always welded together. NOW, with the evolutional and morphological
characters set forth by Scudder we also now see that Pterourus is where
glaucus, palamedes and others belong to - by our understanding of these
characters they have to go there because, evolutionally, they ARE there.
Again, the taxonomist really creates nothing - he only relays in systematic
terminology what already exists in nature. He is but a translator of the
organic to the human understanding.

Next systematic step. Some think the "differences" Scudder deliniated are
not of such magnitude to warrent a full genus stature. Thus, these believe
that the proper genus (by its evolutionary, morphological (including
genatalic), biological (inc. larval structures etc) - gobs of stuff-
criteria dictates that troilus, glaucus, palamedes and the others be placed
in the genus Papilio. So these guys got rid of Pterourus - right?   Nope,
not
at all. Even when they write,
    Papilio troilus
the following is also assumed (by anyone who really uderstands systematics)
   Papilio (Pterourus) troilus.

In recognizing the genus Papilio OVER Pterourus, it is gross error to
assume that Pterourus has some how been done away with - it is simply moved
to a position of subgenus. Just because (Pterourus) is not written does not
mean at all that it is not present. This is like our species subspecies
example above. When a worker feels that there are not two species Xus wus
and Xus gus but one - and he then merges the two under wus, gus is not done
away with it is simply moved from the rank of species to that of subspecis
Xus wus gus.

Papilio troilus and Papilio (Pterourus) troilus are identical. But, in
Pterourus troilus - watch closely - Papilio is not negated as a genus, it
is just excluded as the genus in which troilus resides. Papilio is moved to
a sister generic position. troilus is immutable, Pterourus is immutable,
and Papilio is immutable. The systematic combinations are to a great degree
dictated and to a minute degree pliable. But even where pliable rules exist
to regulate even there. To say troilus is a Papilio is to still be saying
it is a Pterourus - but in the subgenus position. To say troilus is a
Pterourus by genus is to say it is NOT a Papilio by genus.  In these three
combinations troilus is always the same - Pterourus troilus is always
present even if the word Pterourus in not in print or spoken i.e Papilio
troilus - only in the combination Pterourus troilus is Papilio excluded but
not negated.

Ken started by saying,  "However, I lack Ron's certainty about there being
one 'correct' name for a given organism. Taxonomists can disagree (about
almost anything, it would seem)."  If taxonomists are turely submitted to
and working within the ICZN code they may disagree about which Family,
Subfamily, Genus, Subgenus, Species a single basic taxon belongs in - but
they can never disagree about the taxon's unique epithet as it is totally
dictated by the Rules of Priority and subsequent elements of the Code. Nor
can they disagree about its author or date. Those who do disagree at this
basic level just need to be set straight.

When we talk of "common names" we are specifically and only talking about
names that apply to the same _solitary_ basic taxa that the immutable
scientific names are affixed to - WHY?  There are no common names for
Genera  NOT ONE.  Swallowtail, satyr, ringlet etc. all extend well beyond
or around specific genera. Neither Gulf Fritillaries nor Variegated
Fritillaries are Speyeria, Argynnis, Mesoacidalia etc. To say that common
names are not dumbed down compared to scientific names is dumb.
The long phrase Great Spangled Fritillary is just a big phrase for
_cybele_  Not Speyeria cybele.  I wish people would realize how important a
statement I just made - but I have little hope of that. I will close with
the following statement that was sent to another group by an eminent
English scientist, teacher, taxonomist.

"Don't forget that the American Audubon Society, or whatever its moniker
is,
uses common names for all the birds. The names even require the use of
capital letters. This has the wonder action of removing identified
relationships (genus and related species).  For example, for the American
Robin (not American robin), what genus is it, and what other species are in
the genus, and in what family is it?  American Robin - what the heck does
that tell us?"

What the "heck" indeed!  Spicebush Swallowtail says nothing compared to
Papilio (Pterourus) troilus fakahatcheensis. Ken's indecisive collage says
much more than Arctic Fritillary. In their seeming confusion they are
infinitely more correct - they actually tell us something is going on.
Ron


 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Sun Jul 15 19:09:16 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:09:16 -0700
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <Pine.OSF.4.31.0107150009550.23430-100000@aurora.uaf.edu> <002c01c10d80$92c14840$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B52229C.2BB2BC3A@theriver.com>

Ron -
I see your point - especially now that I am trying to dabbble in a
little botany.
The only Checklist I have at my disposal is NABA's.  I looked and there
are no attributions (if that is the proper word) or synonyms.  We state
in our forthcoming book that we used the names in the NABA list - both
common and scientific.  But even if one referred to that list, which has
by the way a section on nomenclature in the back, one still could not
have a properly referenced list without those attributions and
synonyms.  Perhaps future editions might contain these.
Perhaps there is still time in our lifetimes to a get a list that is
most useful for both us amamteurs and the more professional of you.
Thanks Ron - you help me see why, when Botanists Richard Felger and
Lepodopterist/Botanist Michael Murphy did a food plant appendix for us,
they insisted on such a complete list for plant names (which seem to
always be in a much greater state of flux than lep names).
-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From monarch at saber.net  Sun Jul 15 19:18:29 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:18:29 -0700
Subject: collecting?
References: <11575-3B51F65C-52@storefull-123.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <3B5224C5.3041@saber.net>

sebrez at webtv.net wrote:
> 
>  I've begun a collection of moths and butterflies. Feeling too guilty to
> hunt, catch and kill specimens, I have found that roadsides and parking
> lots have many species injured by automobiles.

Well things could be worse - if you were enrolled in Entomology 109
at the University of California at Davis you would be REQUIRED to
collect, kill, pin and identify a diverse collection of insects representing 
at least 200 insect families:
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/ward/ent109/109Home.html

Paul Cherubini

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Sun Jul 15 19:31:21 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:31:21 -0400
Subject: 7th Lakehurst, NJ  4JC
In-Reply-To: cmbb@sk.sympatico.ca
        "And what is in a name?" (Jul 14,  4:07pm)
References: <002601c10cb1$6cf00ae0$b162a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <1010715193124.ZM15478@Gochfeld>

June 30, 2001.  The count is centered approximately at Lakehurst, NJ 
(Ocean County, NJ) It has a mixture of Pine Barrens, abandoned and 
active cranberry bogs, old fields, farm fields, and forest edges. A 
large part of it is a military base, which has, among others things, a 
monument to the Hindenberg crash site. 

One of the best old fields was depleted by a golf course, but using the 
State's Endangered species act, people were able to limit the golf 
course to 18 holes instead of the originally planned 36 holes. The 
remainder of the site is in pretty good shape.  

Here are the results of the 7th annual "fourth of July count".  All 
parties concurred that butterfly activity was low and slow. Several 
species at the lowest or second lowest counts. Partly it reflects the 
season. The late morning was unbearably hot (mid-90's) and butterfly 
activity seemed to be depressed (as were the counters).

Some of the counts which will seem low reflect the fact that this is 
largely a pine barrens area where some common species are unexplicably 
uncommon. Other low counts reflect the seasonality in general (the 
timing of the count in relation to phenology), and some low counts 
reflect the peculiar phenology of 2001.   
=============================================================
Papilio polyxenes	Black Swallowtail	0  usually missed
Papilio glaucus		Eastern Tiger Swallowtail 1  typically scarce 
Papilio troilus 	Spicebush Swallowtail	6  typical numbers
Pieris rapae		Cabbage White		22  2nd lowest
Colias philodice	Clouded Sulphur		2   typical
Colias eurytheme	Orange Sulphur		29  typical
Lycaena phlaeas		American Copper		62  2nd lowest
Lycaena epixanthe	Bog Copper		21  2nd lowest
Satyrium titus		Coral Hairstreak	8   lowest
Satyrium calanus	Banded Hairstreak	11  2nd lowest
Satyrium liparops	Striped Hairstreak	2   2nd lowest
Satyrium favonius	Northern/Southern or Oak Hairstreak 0 (only 1x)	
Parrhasius m-album 	White M Hairstreak	0  (only 1x)
Strymon melinus		Gray Hairstreak		1   typically scarce
Calycopis cecrops	Red-banded Hairstreak	0   usually missed
Everes comyntas		Eastern Tailed Blue	77  2nd highest
Celastrina neglecta	Summer Azure		8   2nd highest
Euptoieta claudia	Variegated Fritillary	2   usually scarce, 	
					these were very worn. 
Speyeria cybele		Great Spangled Fritillary 1   usually scarce 
Boloria selene		Silver-bordered Fritillary 0  (gone? phenology?)
	Probably the July brood hadn't emerged yet. 
Phyciodes tharos	Pearl Crescent		34  2nd highest
Polygonia interogationis Question Mark		1   often missed
Polygonia comma	Eastern Comma			0   usually missed
Nymphalis antiopia	Mourning Cloak		1  usually scarce
Vanessa virginiensis	American Lady		17  pretty typical 
Vanessa cardui		Painted Lady		0   usually missed, but 
	most other NJ counts seem to have found it
Vanessa atalanta	Red Admiral		4  typical numbers, but 
	low considering the large numbers present in southern and 	
	northern NJ in July. 
Junonia coenia		Common Buckeye		1  typically scarce 	
Limenitis arthemis	Red-spotted Purple	2   2nd highest
Limenitis archippus	Viceroy			0  	only 1x	
Satyrodes appalachia	Appalachian Brown	2  typical
Neonympha areolata	Georgia Satyr		19 2nd highest
Megisto cymela		Little Wood Satyr	27  typical
Cercyonis pegala	Common Wood-Nymph	112 2nd highest
Danaus plexippus	Monarch			3  (lowest count,and 
these were very very fresh) 
Epargyreus clarus	Silver-spotted Skipper	6  lowest count
Achalarus lyciades	Hoary Edge		1 (1 reliable plant)
	Each year we find 1-3 individuals on a single partially shaded 
Milkweed plant. Sometimes they are the only ones found. 
Thorybes bathyllus	Southern Cloudywing	0  seen on 3 prior 	
	counts with a high of 38. 
Thorybes pylades	Northern Cloudywing	4  highest 
Erynnis horatius	Horace's Duskywing	1  usually missed
Pholisora catullus	Common Sootywing	1  only once before
Nastra lherminier	Swarthy Skipper		14  second highest 
Ancyloxphya numitor	Least Skipper		1  usually 0 or 1
Thymelicus lineola	European Skipper	1  usually 0 or 1, but 	
once had 23.  This species is usually "gone" by the 3rd week of 	
June. 
Hesperia attalus	Dotted Skipper		5 typical numbers.
Polites peckius		Peck's Skipper		0  usually 0 or 1
Polites themistocles	Tawny-edged Skipper	4  typical
Polites origenes	Crossline Skipper	7  typical
Wallengrenia egeremet	Northern Broken Dash	1  only once before
	This species seems not to be common in the Pine Barrens and we 
tend to miss the July brood in most years. 
Pompeius verna		Little Glassywing	7  medium
Atalopedes campestris	Sachem			0  irruptive, Sachems 	
arrived in central NJ about July 10th. 
Atrytone logan		Delaware Skipper	5  2nd highest 
Poanes massasoit	Mulberry Wing		0  usually 0 to 2
Poanes zabulon		Zabulon Skipper		0 (only 1x)
Euphyes conspicua	Black Dash		0  only 1x
Euphyes bimacula	Two-spotted Skipper	4  2nd highest. A bog 	
species. 
Euphyes vestris		Dun Skipper		5  2nd highest	
Amblyscirtes vialis	Common Roadside Skipper	0 (only 1x, a very late, 
	worn individual in 2000)	
	TOTAL SPECIES	43 in 2001 was second highest species count
	TOTAL INDIVIDUALS 543 in 2001 was second lowest count 

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sun Jul 15 20:26:01 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 20:26:01 -0400
Subject: Everyday usage
Message-ID: <005c01c10d8d$e505d8c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

I hope everyone read Herschel Raney's excellent essay from the heart. Only
a left brained soulless computer would find a bit de fault with that - or
Mark Walker's recent parallel of leaf collecting and butterfly
collecting.

I love Herschel's closing line. "But I will still point with my finger at
the buttonbush or the lily, at the fluttering dark wonder upon it and
whisper in my daughter's ear, ' there, right there, goes another Black
Tiger'. "  I concur fully. I hope we humans never loose (sell) our souls to
the pragmatic.

In everyday usage I call many Lepidoptera by their common names. Whenever I
see a cecropia I call it a Cecropia, a diana a Diana, a kingi a King's,
etc. Others I just call Monarch, Queen, Buckeye - I don't even stipulate
which buckeye, queen or monarch. Some I always call favonius, berryi,
aesculapius, or septentrionalis. As you can see, my personal usages have
nothing to do with common vs. scientific or easy (short) vs.
tongue-twister. I just use what ever I am use to.   I think everyone has
that same right. But no one has to right to demand that others only do it
their way.

The reality is that of all the various name users, I have only found one
faction that is insisting that their choice must be used - and that is the
common names _only_ group. These not only do not, but refuse to, use
scientific names. They also refuse to use any common names other than those
proposed by their pet organization. (The are usually under the gross
misimpression that "their" list is The Standardized One.) They think that
they are being gracious in saying one can use scientific names _as long as_
they also post/say the common name at the same time. If one asks them to
reciprocate by also posting/saying the scientific name they scream in
outrage.

1. Use what ever names you want for your personal use.
2. In groups, use that which will communicate to all - which often means
    using both.
3. Acknowledge that scientific names are the correct terms for organisms.
4. Have fun and never loose the soul factor.

I'm off to the field for a few days to help document a butterfly fauna for
the Forest Service.   Paul, I am turning the controversy baton back to you.
Tell us your take on the recent Lep. Soc. new article on "A Devastating
March for Monarchs in Mexico" by my I-hope-still pal Kurt Johnson et al.

RG






 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Sun Jul 15 20:03:48 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:03:48 -0500
Subject: The Code---mutable or not
Message-ID: <20010715.192809.-310193.1.mbpi@juno.com>

ME get MAD?!  Why heavans, no...  I'll just pop a Prozac, remain on the
sidelines, and place my wager on Seabiscuit (i.e. a dead horse), "to Win"
this handicap :-)

Mary Beth

On Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:41:42 -0400 Michael Gochfeld
<gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU> writes:
> At the risk of incurring Mary Beth's wrath. 
> 
> Ron wrote: 
> Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of 
> Zoological
> Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth 
> about
> taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it 
> works.
> Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The 
> International 
> Code of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability 
> to 
> organic defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors 
> often
> work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.
> ==================
> There's something almost biblical in that proclamation (is that an 
> accident, Ron?). 
> 
> But it's important to recognize that the code itself is mutable. It 
> changes (albeit ponderously) to reflect the state of the cultures of 
> 
> systematics, taxonomy, and nomenclature, which are NOT AT ALL the 
> same 
> thing. 
> 
> Systematics is the study of the relationships
> 
> Taxonomy is the practice of classifying things (not necessarily by 
> relationships. Read for example the numerical taxonomists who were 
> primarily entomologists)
> 
> Nomenclature is the practice of giving names.  
> 
> The discussion has really been about nomenclature in the hope (held 
> to 
> differing degrees by the various discussants) that it reflects 
> relationships. 
> 
> The code is primarily about nomenclature. As I read it taxonomy is 
> only 
> the underpinning. 
> 
> Mike Gochfeld
> 
> 
>  
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From Citheronia at aol.com  Sun Jul 15 23:52:47 2001
From: Citheronia at aol.com (Citheronia at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 23:52:47 EDT
Subject: Overwintering Pachysphinx modesta pupae
Message-ID: <8.17310572.2883bf0f@aol.com>

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone out there has successfully overwintered pupae of 
Pachysphinx modesta (Big Poplar Sphinx). I've heard from a few people that 
they haven't done it successfully. Last year I was able to overwinter a few 
and have them emerge successfully, but perhaps it was just a fluke. If any of 
you have been successful in overwintering the pupae, please let me and 
several others know how! Perhaps something like a rain or temperature would 
trigger emergence?

Thank you all,
Randy Lyttle
Citheronia at aol.com
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Mon Jul 16 08:29:10 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:29:10 -0400
Subject: BUTTERFLYS FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A4A@NTFS2>

See comments below. My wife and I were in the Loire valley and then in
Bosnia for two weeks kast September. I'll give a complete species list
later.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Guy_VdP at t-online.de [SMTP:Guy_VdP at t-online.de]
> Sent:	Saturday, July 14, 2001 4:50 AM
> To:	Leps-List; rjparcelles at yahoo.com
> Subject:	Re: BUTTERFLYS FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS
> 
> Two examples about nature conservation in Flanders:
> 
> Our largest wood: 30 km long and whopping 30 *m* large: the
> (never-completed) central section of the freeway Brussels-Antwerp.
> 
> Flemish way of protecting the woods: just build a new freeway which
> crosses
> a wood, than you have two woods ...
> 
> List of *all* the butterfly species of the village I grew up in (Tisselt,
> near Mechelen):
> 
> Pieris brassicae (rare)
> Pieris rapae
> Pieris napi
> 
> Araschnia levana
> Inachis io
> Aglais urticae
> Polygonia c-album
> Vanessa atalanta
> 
> Pararge aegeria
> 
> Two species I found about 20 years ago, no longer seen the last couple of
> years:
> 
> Lasiommata megera
> Polyommatus icarus
	  
	I found both of these species in the Loire Valley, for example near
Chinon Castle. (AG)

> Those are normally ubiquitists, and maybe I just overlooked them.
> 
> If you want to see how the rest of the world will look like in some years,
> visit Flanders !!!
> (and don't be fooled: it does look very green, though very monotonous)
> And you should understand that the butterflies are merely indicators.
> 
> Guy.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Parcelles,Jr. <rjparcelles at yahoo.com>
> To: Leps-List <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; LEPSrUS <LEPSrUS at listbot.com>
> Cc: Don Stillwaugh <Blandingi at aol.com>
> Date: woensdag 27 juni 2001 1:02
> Subject: BUTTERFLYS FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS
> 
> 
> >GREETINGS:-)
> >
> >I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE OF INTEREST.
> >
> >Bob Parcelles Jr.
> >Pinellas Park, FL
> >
> >BUTTERFLIES FALL IN FLANDERS FIELDS
> >Northern Belgium is the European hot spot for
> >butterfly extinction.
> >21 June 2001
> >http://www.nature.com/nsu/010621/010621-11.html
> >
> >
> >
> >=====
> >Bob Parcelles, Jr
> >Pinellas Park, FL
> >RJP Associates <rjpassociates at yahoo.com>
> >rjparcelles at yahoo.com
> >http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876
> > "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
> >                       --William Shakespeare
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> 
> 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Mon Jul 16 08:41:45 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:41:45 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A4D@NTFS2>

Now we have a new argument created by the anti-scientists: First,
"common/scientific names", now "lumpers/splitters". I am a "splitter". A
"lumper" is one who has neither motivation nor the inspiration, and is
probably too indifferent, to learn scientific names.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Sent:	Saturday, July 14, 2001 4:33 AM
> To:	Leps-l; Carolina Leps
> Cc:	TAXACOM
> Subject:	Re: And what is in a name?
> 
> Anne Kilmer wrote
> snip
> >  ...with the mutability of scientific names, at the mercy
> > of lumpers and splitters...
> 
> 
> Mutable: "given to changing, or constantly changing."
> Immutable: "unchanging, unalterable, changeless."
> 
> There is a big difference between knowing enough to be a good editor and
> being creative enough to be a good author, being able to write a song but
> not sing it, conduct the music but not play or create it.  I have written
> hundreds of articles and several booklets - all non leps (including a
> local
> weekly newspaper column for two years, which I quit because it was too
> much
> work). My editors always love my material and punchy style but hate my
> grammar, punctuation, spelling.  I needed them, they made me look
> literate.
> 
> Some of the dumbest people I know have a lot of knowledge or can spell
> real
> good. Knowledge, wisdom, insight, understanding - different animals.
> Knowledge is cheep - its a dime a dozen. Wisdom is rare - it can't be
> faked.  Insight is what makes great councilors great - others don't like
> what it sees in them.  To understand - is to have arrived.
> 
> To let Anne's statements (made in her usual cutesy but sarcastic way)
> slide
> by is to give everyone else the impression that I have bowed my head, been
> put in my place, and acquiesced to the higher power.  She is very wrong
> and
> does not have the faintest idea what she is talking about when it comes to
> "scientific names" and how they function. She does not understand.
> 
> Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of Zoological
> Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth about
> taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it works.
> Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The International Code
> of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability to organic
> defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors often
> work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.
> 
> Gochfeld also posted recently that, " Ron, we've been down the name line
> often before. A scientific name is NO MORE OR LESS correct [than a common
> name] and certainly no more stable over time than any other name which
> people bestow on what they think they understand as what may be a species
> (or other level taxon)."
> 
> To this I say that we obviously have not been down it far enough or long
> enough because people still just don't it - understand.
> 
> At this point I do not even know if it is worth going into it. I have sat
> on this post for awhile wondering if I should even post this much. Then
> there is issue of space on a list like this.
> 
> I have a question line for the people who want to discuss taxonomy and its
> nomenclatorial procedures. Do you own a copy of the ICZN (bible), have you
> read it, do you understand it, have you ever or do you work with it, is it
> a familiar every day tool to you? If not you are like a guy off the street
> putting on boxing gloves and getting in ring with Mike Tyson. A person
> with
> no license getting behind the wheel of a car. There are many
> entomology professors who don't know about _doing_ taxonomy.
> 
> An organism is discoverd. It is then scientifically identified by a term
> that is based on Latin OR Greek OR a combiantion of both - or neither
> (e.g.
> an American Indian name left as is - cullasaja).
> 
> When the science of systematic nomenclature was introduced it was so
> primative then that confusion was a common occurance. Many original
> descriptions were very brief and not accompanied by even a cartoonist
> painting - we were like babies learning to walk. Many of these are also so
> rare and obscure that some later workers did not even know they existed or
> if so, where to find them. But the system was brilliant.
> 
> Our example will be Papilio ajax.  After its coining it was found that
> when
> the word ajax was applied (in 1758) that several different butterflies
> were unknowingly included under this epithet.  Eventually no one could
> tell
> to which it actually was affixed!
> Arguments over ajax ensued. Finally, it was wisely decided that we could
> never know to which organism that term was meant to apply. The scientific
> community went to court so to speak and ruled that rather than apply ajax
> improperly, ajax was banned in regard to several species of swallowtails
> involved - glaucus, marcellus, asterius, troilus.  So how were these
> "ajax"
> to now be known?  What NEW names were given to these?  NONE.
> 1) It was never known in the first place what "ajax" was referring
> to so technically NO SINGLE butterfly was ever named this.
>  2) A new name was not sought. Rather an OLD name. Taxonomic names very
> rarely move FORWARD. If something is found defective -
> a nomen nudum, nomen dubium - the taxonomist MUST make a search for the
> oldest available name and he AND ALL OTHERS MUST use that one valid name.
> (There are exceptions and the new edition strongly leans to preserving
> names held in long usage. This is a very complicated and legalistic
> process
> that I am nutshelling.)
> 
> That is the immutable goal of the system - find the oldest and stick with
> it forever. What ever the oldest available and valid word-term for a
> subspecies/species that is its name forever. Sometimes we are still
> finding
> that occasionally a name WE have been using (say turnus 1771), is the NEW
> name and that we  should have been using the OLDER name (here glaucus) as
> THAT is the correct name by the Code. Glaucus is The immutable epithet -
> which is why we HAD to RETURN to it.  Nothing changed - popular
> workers had just screwed up by using the incorrect name - turnus.
> 
> This is like a child born and being given to the wrong parent at birth.
> The child was born a Smith - but (because of human error) its first
> 10 years was spent as a Jones. When the mistake was realized the
> child was given to its proper parents and is now know correctly
> as Smith. The friends who only knew it as Jones would (ignorantly)
> say, Oh you have a NEW name. The child would say, no I have found
> my OLD and REAL name. They of course, would not _understand_
> because of what they did not know. Some might still want to,
> and would,  call him/her Jones.
> 
> This applies to genus names often. All butterflies were once just genus
> Papilio. Eventually we saw that was wrong. Wrong how?  Because evolution
> had not made them all Papilio. The taxonomist could call them a "term" he
> chose (within the rules) but HAD to categorize them in groups as
> God and evolution made them.  This gave rise to hairstreaks becoming
> Thecla rather then Papilio. This lumping was found incorrect also.
> Now, there are still Thecla but only the ones evolutionally related to
> the FIRST taxon in that genus to which the genus label Thecla was
> affixed. Thecla, like Papilio, is the immutable epithet for their
> respective
> genera. When new genera are discovered (uncovered) the proper evolutionary
> units MUST be placed in (moved to) them. When a species is transferred to
> another genus it is simply the scientifically demanded aligning of
> nomenclature with what nature has made - the original parent.
> 
> I'll quit here. There is nothing capricious about scientific terms (unlike
> common names).  What the lay person sees as random mutable name changes
> are
> not such at all. They are REQUIRED adjustment to bring the system to its
> immutalble conslusion (for this time and space).  The name appalachia
> affixed to that organism in the southern US we commonly call the
> Appalachian Brown will never change ever - it can't be. It is immutable as
> that is the only and oldest scientific term available to it. The common
> name can, and likely will, be changed many times in the next thousand
> years. But not appalachia. It will stay in Satyroides too and can only be
> MOVED (not "renamed") to a different genus if the evolutionary evidence
> says that is where it belongs.
> 
> Bottom line. 1) Species/subspecies level. A newly discovered animal is
> given a new name - within very strict parameters of the ICZN naming
> process.  This is (basically) the only time we get "new" names. A named
> animal that we have known as xus for twenty years suddenly appears as wus
> in the popular literature - the uneducated see this as a new name. It is
> not - it is a return to an older name - the original immutable one.  2) A
> transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
> change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
> understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all "experts" and so more
> than one alignment may be found. However, the original epithet given to
> the
> individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
> adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable epithets or
> from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will provide an
> everlasting unchanging nomenclature. Scientific IDs (commonly called
> names)
> are the only correct class of labels for animals, plants, and minerals.
> Common names aren't.  Au   is and will be the correct "name" for what that
> element is no matter what it is called in any language (in English, Gold).
> Antiopa is the correct term for the animal no matter what it is called in
> any language.
> 
> Ron Gatrelle,
> taxonomist, zoologist, ordained minister, certified prosthetic dental
> technician,
> author, speaker, teacher. I get paid to do all of these.
> 
> 
> 
>  
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From Jeffrey.Oliver at Colorado.EDU  Mon Jul 16 12:32:51 2001
From: Jeffrey.Oliver at Colorado.EDU (OLIVER JEFFREY CATLIN)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 10:32:51 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: witches in the SF Bay Area...
In-Reply-To: <004701c10bda$12dc7b60$ab8a0a3f@1swch01>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0107161030580.5632-100000@ucsub.colorado.edu>

We're getting them here in Boulder, Colorado.  Pretty fresh too.  All
sorts of stuff flying up: witches, Eurema mexicana, Phoebis sennae.

Jeff Oliver
jeffrey.oliver at colorado.edu



 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Mon Jul 16 13:43:50 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:43:50 +0100
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A4D@NTFS2>
Message-ID: <3B5327D6.F9AB4C01@anu.ie>

"Grkovich, Alex" wrote:
> 
> Now we have a new argument created by the anti-scientists: First,
> "common/scientific names", now "lumpers/splitters". I am a "splitter". A
> "lumper" is one who has neither motivation nor the inspiration, and is
> probably too indifferent, to learn scientific names.
> >
> > Anne Kilmer wrote
> > snip
> > >  ...with the mutability of scientific names, at the mercy
> > > of lumpers and splitters...
> >
> 

I am by no means an anti-scientist. I spent eight years imbibing science
at two respected universities. Some of my best friends are taxonomists.
Perhaps some of my postings have been read hastily and misunderstood. 
Nor have I invented the lumpers and the splitters. The splitters are
those taxonomists that like to find that a sub-species is indeed a
separate species (and a new or ancient name is assigned).
The lumpers are taxonomists who like to discover that two species, often
on opposite sides of the globe, are, in fact, the same bug or bird or
whatever, and therefore should have the same name. The oldest one is
used, as Ron points out. 
With advances in DNA analysis and such, many creatures may change names,
back and forth, several times in your lifetime. 
Both lumpers and splitters are, in fact, scientists, and neither term is
an insult.
I am very happy to use both scientific and common names, and have been
doing so for many years. I think perhaps the confusion here results from
my NABA membership. Not all NABA members espouse all the prejudices and
failings that a few do. 
Myself, I am kind to collectors, and treat taxonomists with courtesy and
understanding. And I cannot understand why anyone should think
otherwise. 
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland
and
South Florida

 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Mon Jul 16 14:27:45 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:27:45 -0400
Subject: Painted Lady
References: <8.1733da41.288479bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00e401c10e25$02d6e0a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

All -

    I agree with Rick's comments about the lack of Painted Ladys (Ladies?)
in the Northeast in recent years.  My only encounters with V. cardui in the
past three calendar years were individuals in the fall along the Conn.
coastline, which serves as a line of travel for migrant birds , butterflies
and odes.

    However, I did encounter an adult P.L. in early June while leading a
Conn. Butterfly Assoc. field trip, and there have been reports of numerous
larvae found across the state.  In the past few days, a few CT Summer
Butterfly Counts have reported both Ladies - V. virginensis and V. cardui.
I personally saw 4 Painted as well as 15 American on the New London, CT SBC
on July 15, which equaled my entire 1999 and 2000 sightings for Painted
Lady.

    It looks like we may very well have lots of both Ladies to watch this
summer and fall.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: <LCooper298 at aol.com>
To: <LEPSrUS at listbot.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Painted Lady


> LEPSrUS
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hello all,
>
> Below is a post I received from Rick Cech, member from NYC commenting on
the
> number of Painted Ladies being seen in Florida. Anybody else seeing them
in
> their yards?
>
> Buck & Linda:  Hi. A thought on your Painted Ladys  For 2-3 years, we have
> had almost no PL's in the northeast. Drought in Mexican staging areas,
etc.
> This year, huge influx in western US, staritng now to reflect in our area
> (seeing more Painteds than Americans lately). Florida has few PLs
> historically, and maybe some seen this year are related to releases or
> science proijects, but if you're seeing them now, I'd be more inclined to
> link it to a 2001 continental phenomenon than local releases.  Just a
> thought.  Rick
>
> Linda and Buck Cooper
> 558 Sunshine Blvd
> Haines City, FL 33844-9540
> 863.439.2704
> LCooper298 at aol.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to LEPSrUS-unsubscribe at listbot.com


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Mon Jul 16 16:42:11 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:42:11 -0400
Subject: Painted Lady
References: <8.1733da41.288479bb@aol.com> <00e401c10e25$02d6e0a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <3B5351A3.85378881@eohsi.rutgers.edu>

To followup on Clay Taylor: The Raritan Canal Count (central New Jersey)
logged an equal number of Painted Ladies (V. cardui) and American Ladies
(V. virginiensis). 

Over the years it is apparent that V. cardui is present some years and
completely absent in others as befits its erratic immigration patterns
elsewhere. But it has not been superabundant in recent memory, nor even
as abundant as the Red Admiral has been this month. 

I'll post the full count in a day or so. 

Mike Gochfeld

Clay Taylor wrote:
> 
> All -
> 
>     I agree with Rick's comments about the lack of Painted Ladys (Ladies?)
> in the Northeast in recent years.  My only encounters with V. cardui in the
> past three calendar years were individuals in the fall along the Conn.
> coastline, which serves as a line of travel for migrant birds , butterflies
> and odes.
> 
>     However, I did encounter an adult P.L. in early June while leading a
> Conn. Butterfly Assoc. field trip, and there have been reports of numerous
> larvae found across the state.  In the past few days, a few CT Summer
> Butterfly Counts have reported both Ladies - V. virginensis and V. cardui.
> I personally saw 4 Painted as well as 15 American on the New London, CT SBC
> on July 15, which equaled my entire 1999 and 2000 sightings for Painted
> Lady.
> 
>     It looks like we may very well have lots of both Ladies to watch this
> summer and fall.
> 
> Clay Taylor
> Moodus, CT
> ctaylor at att.net
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LCooper298 at aol.com>
> To: <LEPSrUS at listbot.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Painted Lady
> 
> > LEPSrUS
> >
> > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> > Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Below is a post I received from Rick Cech, member from NYC commenting on
> the
> > number of Painted Ladies being seen in Florida. Anybody else seeing them
> in
> > their yards?
> >
> > Buck & Linda:  Hi. A thought on your Painted Ladys  For 2-3 years, we have
> > had almost no PL's in the northeast. Drought in Mexican staging areas,
> etc.
> > This year, huge influx in western US, staritng now to reflect in our area
> > (seeing more Painteds than Americans lately). Florida has few PLs
> > historically, and maybe some seen this year are related to releases or
> > science proijects, but if you're seeing them now, I'd be more inclined to
> > link it to a 2001 continental phenomenon than local releases.  Just a
> > thought.  Rick
> >
> > Linda and Buck Cooper
> > 558 Sunshine Blvd
> > Haines City, FL 33844-9540
> > 863.439.2704
> > LCooper298 at aol.com
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe, write to LEPSrUS-unsubscribe at listbot.com
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> 

-- 

================================================
Michael Gochfeld, MD, PhD
Professor of Environmental and Community Medicine
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and
Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute
170 Frelinghuysen Road
Piscataway, NJ 08854  USA
732-445-0123 X627  fax 732-445-0130

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From hankb at theriver.com  Mon Jul 16 17:44:25 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:44:25 -0700
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A4D@NTFS2> <3B5327D6.F9AB4C01@anu.ie>
Message-ID: <3B536039.AB603F28@theriver.com>

Anne Kilmer wrote:


>SNIP
> I am very happy to use both scientific and common names, and have been
> doing so for many years. I think perhaps the confusion here results from
> my NABA membership. Not all NABA members espouse all the prejudices and
> failings that a few do.

Anne -
Might I add that MOST NABA members that I know are not anti-collecting. 
I can think of only one whose face goes all splotchy when she sees a
net. Perhaps at some point this will sink in - but then what will we
have to argue about ? ;-)


> Myself, I am kind to collectors, and treat taxonomists with courtesy and
> understanding. And I cannot understand why anyone should think
> otherwise.
> Anne Kilmer

Amen!

-- 
	                  Hank Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From marven at home.com  Mon Jul 16 18:16:57 2001
From: marven at home.com (D Marven)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:16:57 GMT
Subject: European Beatles
Message-ID: <3B5368F3.4313F4F2@home.com>

Hi Folks
        Can anybody point me in the right direction for a web site on
British or European beetles for identification purposes.

Thanks
Derrick

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From jrlyons at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul 16 21:36:10 2001
From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:36:10 -0500
Subject: Painted Lady
References: <8.1733da41.288479bb@aol.com> <00e401c10e25$02d6e0a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> <3B5351A3.85378881@eohsi.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <3B53968A.F1A4C943@bellsouth.net>

V cardui "mobbed" our garden beginning this
weekend here (New Orleans).  I only spotted
one in all of 2000.  Right now they number
around 20 at any one time.  We introduced
some wormwood plants about a month ago.

Michael Gochfeld wrote:

> To followup on Clay Taylor: The Raritan Canal Count (central New Jersey)
> logged an equal number of Painted Ladies (V. cardui) and American Ladies
> (V. virginiensis).
>
> Over the years it is apparent that V. cardui is present some years and
> completely absent in others as befits its erratic immigration patterns
> elsewhere. But it has not been superabundant in recent memory, nor even
> as abundant as the Red Admiral has been this month.
>
> I'll post the full count in a day or so.
>
> Mike Gochfeld
>
> Clay Taylor wrote:
> >
> > All -
> >
> >     I agree with Rick's comments about the lack of Painted Ladys (Ladies?)
> > in the Northeast in recent years.  My only encounters with V. cardui in the
> > past three calendar years were individuals in the fall along the Conn.
> > coastline, which serves as a line of travel for migrant birds , butterflies
> > and odes.
> >
> >     However, I did encounter an adult P.L. in early June while leading a
> > Conn. Butterfly Assoc. field trip, and there have been reports of numerous
> > larvae found across the state.  In the past few days, a few CT Summer
> > Butterfly Counts have reported both Ladies - V. virginensis and V. cardui.
> > I personally saw 4 Painted as well as 15 American on the New London, CT SBC
> > on July 15, which equaled my entire 1999 and 2000 sightings for Painted
> > Lady.
> >
> >     It looks like we may very well have lots of both Ladies to watch this
> > summer and fall.
> >
> > Clay Taylor
> > Moodus, CT
> > ctaylor at att.net
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <LCooper298 at aol.com>
> > To: <LEPSrUS at listbot.com>
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 1:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: Painted Lady
> >
> > > LEPSrUS
> > >
> > > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> > > Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Below is a post I received from Rick Cech, member from NYC commenting on
> > the
> > > number of Painted Ladies being seen in Florida. Anybody else seeing them
> > in
> > > their yards?
> > >
> > > Buck & Linda:  Hi. A thought on your Painted Ladys  For 2-3 years, we have
> > > had almost no PL's in the northeast. Drought in Mexican staging areas,
> > etc.
> > > This year, huge influx in western US, staritng now to reflect in our area
> > > (seeing more Painteds than Americans lately). Florida has few PLs
> > > historically, and maybe some seen this year are related to releases or
> > > science proijects, but if you're seeing them now, I'd be more inclined to
> > > link it to a 2001 continental phenomenon than local releases.  Just a
> > > thought.  Rick
> > >
> > > Linda and Buck Cooper
> > > 558 Sunshine Blvd
> > > Haines City, FL 33844-9540
> > > 863.439.2704
> > > LCooper298 at aol.com
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > To unsubscribe, write to LEPSrUS-unsubscribe at listbot.com
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
>
> --
>
> ================================================
> Michael Gochfeld, MD, PhD
> Professor of Environmental and Community Medicine
> UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and
> Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute
> 170 Frelinghuysen Road
> Piscataway, NJ 08854  USA
> 732-445-0123 X627  fax 732-445-0130
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl





 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From stanlep at extremezone.com  Mon Jul 16 23:03:08 2001
From: stanlep at extremezone.com (Stanley A. Gorodenski)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:03:08 -0700
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A4D@NTFS2>
Message-ID: <3B53AAEC.6C3FA3FD@extremezone.com>

With regard to lumping and splitting, maybe butterfly taxonomists can
learn something from anthropologists.  I heard on the news a few days
ago that based, apparently, on the shape (i.e., indentations, angles,
elevations, etc.) of a single molar dated over 5 million years old, an
new species has been designated as an ancestor to the human race.

Now, if we applied such standards to butterfly taxonomy, variations in
wing scales and body hairs, for example, would result in an abundance of
new species.  In fact, it might be possible for each individual from a
single brood to be designated as a distinct species.  Contrary to some
of the accepted species concepts?  No problem at all.  All we need to do
is invent something called the 'area gradient kinship phyologenetic
species concept'.

Stan
p.s., since I invented it, I retain all rights to the term 'area
gradient kinship phyologenetic species concept' (-:

"Grkovich, Alex" wrote:
> 
> Now we have a new argument created by the anti-scientists: First,
> "common/scientific names", now "lumpers/splitters". I am a "splitter". A
> "lumper" is one who has neither motivation nor the inspiration, and is
> probably too indifferent, to learn scientific names.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 4:33 AM
> > To:   Leps-l; Carolina Leps
> > Cc:   TAXACOM
> > Subject:      Re: And what is in a name?
> >
> > Anne Kilmer wrote
> > snip
> > >  ...with the mutability of scientific names, at the mercy
> > > of lumpers and splitters...
> >
> >
> > Mutable: "given to changing, or constantly changing."
> > Immutable: "unchanging, unalterable, changeless."
> >
> > There is a big difference between knowing enough to be a good editor and
> > being creative enough to be a good author, being able to write a song but
> > not sing it, conduct the music but not play or create it.  I have written
> > hundreds of articles and several booklets - all non leps (including a
> > local
> > weekly newspaper column for two years, which I quit because it was too
> > much
> > work). My editors always love my material and punchy style but hate my
> > grammar, punctuation, spelling.  I needed them, they made me look
> > literate.
> >
> > Some of the dumbest people I know have a lot of knowledge or can spell
> > real
> > good. Knowledge, wisdom, insight, understanding - different animals.
> > Knowledge is cheep - its a dime a dozen. Wisdom is rare - it can't be
> > faked.  Insight is what makes great councilors great - others don't like
> > what it sees in them.  To understand - is to have arrived.
> >
> > To let Anne's statements (made in her usual cutesy but sarcastic way)
> > slide
> > by is to give everyone else the impression that I have bowed my head, been
> > put in my place, and acquiesced to the higher power.  She is very wrong
> > and
> > does not have the faintest idea what she is talking about when it comes to
> > "scientific names" and how they function. She does not understand.
> >
> > Anyone who does not own a copy of The International Code of Zoological
> > Nomenclature (ICZN) Vol. 4 should not even be opening their mouth about
> > taxonomy. Even many who do have a copy don't _understand_  how it works.
> > Taxonomists are not free to do what ever they want. The International Code
> > of Zoological Nomenclature is structured to bring immutability to organic
> > defination and communication. Popular butterfly authors often
> > work outside these rules and have screwed things up quite a bit.
> >
> > Gochfeld also posted recently that, " Ron, we've been down the name line
> > often before. A scientific name is NO MORE OR LESS correct [than a common
> > name] and certainly no more stable over time than any other name which
> > people bestow on what they think they understand as what may be a species
> > (or other level taxon)."
> >
> > To this I say that we obviously have not been down it far enough or long
> > enough because people still just don't it - understand.
> >
> > At this point I do not even know if it is worth going into it. I have sat
> > on this post for awhile wondering if I should even post this much. Then
> > there is issue of space on a list like this.
> >
> > I have a question line for the people who want to discuss taxonomy and its
> > nomenclatorial procedures. Do you own a copy of the ICZN (bible), have you
> > read it, do you understand it, have you ever or do you work with it, is it
> > a familiar every day tool to you? If not you are like a guy off the street
> > putting on boxing gloves and getting in ring with Mike Tyson. A person
> > with
> > no license getting behind the wheel of a car. There are many
> > entomology professors who don't know about _doing_ taxonomy.
> >
> > An organism is discoverd. It is then scientifically identified by a term
> > that is based on Latin OR Greek OR a combiantion of both - or neither
> > (e.g.
> > an American Indian name left as is - cullasaja).
> >
> > When the science of systematic nomenclature was introduced it was so
> > primative then that confusion was a common occurance. Many original
> > descriptions were very brief and not accompanied by even a cartoonist
> > painting - we were like babies learning to walk. Many of these are also so
> > rare and obscure that some later workers did not even know they existed or
> > if so, where to find them. But the system was brilliant.
> >
> > Our example will be Papilio ajax.  After its coining it was found that
> > when
> > the word ajax was applied (in 1758) that several different butterflies
> > were unknowingly included under this epithet.  Eventually no one could
> > tell
> > to which it actually was affixed!
> > Arguments over ajax ensued. Finally, it was wisely decided that we could
> > never know to which organism that term was meant to apply. The scientific
> > community went to court so to speak and ruled that rather than apply ajax
> > improperly, ajax was banned in regard to several species of swallowtails
> > involved - glaucus, marcellus, asterius, troilus.  So how were these
> > "ajax"
> > to now be known?  What NEW names were given to these?  NONE.
> > 1) It was never known in the first place what "ajax" was referring
> > to so technically NO SINGLE butterfly was ever named this.
> >  2) A new name was not sought. Rather an OLD name. Taxonomic names very
> > rarely move FORWARD. If something is found defective -
> > a nomen nudum, nomen dubium - the taxonomist MUST make a search for the
> > oldest available name and he AND ALL OTHERS MUST use that one valid name.
> > (There are exceptions and the new edition strongly leans to preserving
> > names held in long usage. This is a very complicated and legalistic
> > process
> > that I am nutshelling.)
> >
> > That is the immutable goal of the system - find the oldest and stick with
> > it forever. What ever the oldest available and valid word-term for a
> > subspecies/species that is its name forever. Sometimes we are still
> > finding
> > that occasionally a name WE have been using (say turnus 1771), is the NEW
> > name and that we  should have been using the OLDER name (here glaucus) as
> > THAT is the correct name by the Code. Glaucus is The immutable epithet -
> > which is why we HAD to RETURN to it.  Nothing changed - popular
> > workers had just screwed up by using the incorrect name - turnus.
> >
> > This is like a child born and being given to the wrong parent at birth.
> > The child was born a Smith - but (because of human error) its first
> > 10 years was spent as a Jones. When the mistake was realized the
> > child was given to its proper parents and is now know correctly
> > as Smith. The friends who only knew it as Jones would (ignorantly)
> > say, Oh you have a NEW name. The child would say, no I have found
> > my OLD and REAL name. They of course, would not _understand_
> > because of what they did not know. Some might still want to,
> > and would,  call him/her Jones.
> >
> > This applies to genus names often. All butterflies were once just genus
> > Papilio. Eventually we saw that was wrong. Wrong how?  Because evolution
> > had not made them all Papilio. The taxonomist could call them a "term" he
> > chose (within the rules) but HAD to categorize them in groups as
> > God and evolution made them.  This gave rise to hairstreaks becoming
> > Thecla rather then Papilio. This lumping was found incorrect also.
> > Now, there are still Thecla but only the ones evolutionally related to
> > the FIRST taxon in that genus to which the genus label Thecla was
> > affixed. Thecla, like Papilio, is the immutable epithet for their
> > respective
> > genera. When new genera are discovered (uncovered) the proper evolutionary
> > units MUST be placed in (moved to) them. When a species is transferred to
> > another genus it is simply the scientifically demanded aligning of
> > nomenclature with what nature has made - the original parent.
> >
> > I'll quit here. There is nothing capricious about scientific terms (unlike
> > common names).  What the lay person sees as random mutable name changes
> > are
> > not such at all. They are REQUIRED adjustment to bring the system to its
> > immutalble conslusion (for this time and space).  The name appalachia
> > affixed to that organism in the southern US we commonly call the
> > Appalachian Brown will never change ever - it can't be. It is immutable as
> > that is the only and oldest scientific term available to it. The common
> > name can, and likely will, be changed many times in the next thousand
> > years. But not appalachia. It will stay in Satyroides too and can only be
> > MOVED (not "renamed") to a different genus if the evolutionary evidence
> > says that is where it belongs.
> >
> > Bottom line. 1) Species/subspecies level. A newly discovered animal is
> > given a new name - within very strict parameters of the ICZN naming
> > process.  This is (basically) the only time we get "new" names. A named
> > animal that we have known as xus for twenty years suddenly appears as wus
> > in the popular literature - the uneducated see this as a new name. It is
> > not - it is a return to an older name - the original immutable one.  2) A
> > transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
> > change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
> > understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all "experts" and so more
> > than one alignment may be found. However, the original epithet given to
> > the
> > individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
> > adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable epithets or
> > from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will provide an
> > everlasting unchanging nomenclature. Scientific IDs (commonly called
> > names)
> > are the only correct class of labels for animals, plants, and minerals.
> > Common names aren't.  Au   is and will be the correct "name" for what that
> > element is no matter what it is called in any language (in English, Gold).
> > Antiopa is the correct term for the animal no matter what it is called in
> > any language.
> >
> > Ron Gatrelle,
> > taxonomist, zoologist, ordained minister, certified prosthetic dental
> > technician,
> > author, speaker, teacher. I get paid to do all of these.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
> 
> 
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 17 00:06:51 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:06:51 -0500
Subject: AUJBC 20th Year
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010716230348.0300b1c0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Here attached are count results for the 20th year Austin Urban July 
Butterfly Count.
.................Chris Durden
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From ron.gatrelle at thunderstar.net  Mon Jul 16 23:55:49 2001
From: ron.gatrelle at thunderstar.net (ron.gatrelle at thunderstar.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 03:55:49 GMT
Subject: WAS A Leper?
Message-ID: <995342149.1@thunderstar.net>

From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tiser, Gene M" <TiserG at mail01.dnr.state.wi.us>
Subject: RE: WAS A Leper?


> Ron -
> I think you missed one other significant aspect/justification of
sub-species
> documentation.  That is, surviving subspecies of today will at some
 point
> become tomorrow's species.  If today's subspecies are not noted or
tracked,
> the future lepidopterans will lament the loss of evolutionary data
 and
> insights that could have been gained had these creatures been
 carefully
> documented and studied.  Can you imagine having data that tracks a
> sub-species through the time it becomes a full fledged species?
>
> Gene Tiser

Exactly. Actually I did address this between-the-lines in the "
 (which
evolutionally, is what all lepidopteran organic units are) "
 statement. I
am glad you brought it out as it is an extremely important point.  I
 am
going to attach a little piece I wrote some time ago titled:
 Taxonomic
Philosophy.  This is copyrighted material. It is very short and I see
 no
problem attaching it to this leps-l post. It is just text no graphics
 etc.
It is in pdf (Adobe) format.

Ron

Ron

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t6BZ1a54FE8UGqiG6JZMT9/SWTi0ycw0ouA4j5gyXH4iKIp/oH+HFlATE6AVW8RBLKq1ge
UyZPN
5CHyGHmKfJ+8Qs6Rf8g3ZCersIRV25WOSLtakAqRbZFHpdHILvUA/3jkjcj7wgfKh+TPqi
Waefb
hVUSsxLFxVQ4JTEtejCbjum+bNoXJV5eJUSA26vs8Dolh6QoVUrUN0SUZkmyY5tkDwuiFC
CQJQI
rygR4iWCtxkjHmOkRvko8fnsEURL4bADKgcd8USoCCKKwKuMN9YuYKFamz7pzKaFKr3uDH
qogfF
dGSRF6nSPZPI5KBFDqridboL61w27cYpOB/QuEpvmowdIREkT9Hb6QdQQNO4a0PaNU27oW
XPtGG
PF5/t8fbPQT+5uDJ57zdqRkAhxuTmu1J7jy8AxoDIIC4GcxNL7W2z5coayOXs7JcLmfNQb
wpg0N
DaEhtA/vw7RF4P1NTR1WJdOxOtMJT0axWoDZ5AdWZ2cGbFSYFbttbt/aAefcp07/2pUS53
w809U
UoF0zjn/mHPDvr1022vz38Lb2EdmX94cbBWkcDQa9sVX7P/1uXwmICepaJQeepnZNH9y7h
kxG8h
915j70UhuHT97SwK1/6pd3i6U9r94sGWQ9qRlslmi4tvlFxYQBIWw+FmXuB5XiBJVzyJKZ
NT7YK
PLdyin4aWcCzMX/eMgVnv1RtWrf7uvemcEp8PzxFYyTQhVNeN4/5Kt5/Omnn/XzSMYX3w7
mn3Oa
Bsm8DxbyWcTXxs1xeFhDJ1sD9bfuTABDD3TzuqdbM38lPHBh7sImbgiCM3DJHAA8nM/Pc


 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Tue Jul 17 02:24:31 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 07:24:31 +0100
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A4D@NTFS2> <3B5327D6.F9AB4C01@anu.ie> <3B536039.AB603F28@theriver.com>
Message-ID: <3B53DA1F.B0640437@anu.ie>

Hank & Priscilla Brodkin wrote:
> 
> Anne Kilmer wrote:
> 
> >SNIP
> > I am very happy to use both scientific and common names, and have been
> > doing so for many years. I think perhaps the confusion here results from
> > my NABA membership. Not all NABA members espouse all the prejudices and
> > failings that a few do.
> 
> Anne -
> Might I add that MOST NABA members that I know are not anti-collecting.
> I can think of only one whose face goes all splotchy when she sees a
> net. Perhaps at some point this will sink in - but then what will we
> have to argue about ? ;-)
> 
> > Myself, I am kind to collectors, and treat taxonomists with courtesy and
> > understanding. And I cannot understand why anyone should think
> > otherwise.
> > Anne Kilmer
> 
> Amen!
> 
> --
>                           Hank Brodkin
>
Another Lepper, in a private communication (an apology for a public
bashing on three lists) added: "And I know there are NABA members out
there (I know a few personally) that do not "espouse all the failings
that a few have". (But then, why be a member?)"

Ah, why be a NABA member. Is it the dandy little magazine, with the
photos defaced by somebody with artistic inclinations, so that I cannot
use them for collage and decoupage, as is my happy custom? Is it the
editorials? 
Is it, in fact inertia ... easier to continue to belong than to drop
out? 
Why, no. I belong to NABA because I care deeply about butterflies (and
moths) and the world they live in. I am eager to help educate people in
general to the needs and wishes of leps, and to assist them (the leps)
on life's journey. For, if there are plenty of bugs, there are also
plenty of the critters who eat them. Butterflies are for the birds.
I am also glad to increase and enhance my own education, which is one
reason I stick with this list. 
Some NABA members oppose collecting, for various reasons. These reasons
they may exhibit in the magazine, or on this list. 
Many other members are collectors, and have written about that in the
magazine. Jeff himself is a collector. 
Quite a few of us neither collect nor object. 

The NABA web page to which Wanda Dameron directed us has both common
(vernacular English) and scientific names, so arranged that one can,
given either name, find the other. That's useful, if you happen to be in
another country and wonder what a Mourning Cloak might be, or whether a
Purple Hairstreak feeds on oak or mistletoe. 
The page gives no preference to either name, and the people of the leps
list decided, long ago, to use both common name and scientific name for
whatever leps they are discussing. Those who are kind enough to include
the English name get extra points. ;-) 

NABA *has* taken a stand against Butterfly Farming, and I'm not at all
sure I agree, but that's beside the point. 

The point I am making is that, if those of you prejudiced against NABA
had their way, everyone who uses scientific names and approves of
collecting would leave NABA and you could be perfectly right about your
prejudices. That would leave NABA with about 12 rabid members, and good
riddance to it. 
I don't see that happening any time soon, and perhaps it is time for the
NABA bashers to rethink their position, abandon their prejudices, and
enjoy the light of day once more. 
It is, after all, the Millennium. 

It is cold and rainy here, planning gale force winds again today. I saw
a LBJ yesterday (Little Brown Job, perhaps something rare and exciting
but more probably a Speckled Wood, Pararge aegeria) which banged against
my window and flew off. Other than that, not much in the way of leps.
Perhaps tomorrow will be better. 
Peace, and good bugs to you
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 17 06:06:32 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 06:06:32 -0400
Subject: NJ Salt marsh July 16, 2001
In-Reply-To: Michael Gochfeld <gochfeld@eohsi.rutgers.edu>
        "Re: Painted Lady" (Jul 16,  4:42pm)
References: <8.1733da41.288479bb@aol.com> 
	<00e401c10e25$02d6e0a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733> 
	<3B5351A3.85378881@eohsi.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <1010717060635.ZM15534@Gochfeld>

Yesterday Fred Lesser, Joanna Burger and I visited two islands in 
Barnegat Bay (Ocean County, NJ) near Barnegat Inlet.  "Dredge" Island 
was created about 15 years ago and has undergone extensive succession 
(like most such islands), being almost completely vegetated.  North Clam 
Island remains a Spartina alterniflora salt marsh. 

There were virtually no nectar sources present.  Salt Marsh Skippers 
(Panoquina panoquin) were NOT found.  They are "out" this time of year, 
although we find peak numbers in late summer when over a thousand can be 
counted at Brigantine (Forsyth) National Wildlife Refuge. Their host in 
NJ is presumed to be Distichlis, a widespread salt marsh grass, but you 
don't necessarily find them in patches of this grass, so I would say the 
host in NJ is still poorly known. 

There were a few Cabbage Whites which fluttered weakly out of the Beach 
Grass in the early morning.  Red Admirals WERE present, but there were 
very few, about 8 seen flying by over the course of six hours. Also one 
fresh Monarch (this species still hasn't hit central NJ in any numbers 
this summer). 

Salt marshes and barrier beaches are NOT places you would go for a 
diversity of butterflies, but they are interesting. 

The Seaside Dragonfly (Erythrodiplax berenice) was super abundant. You 
could stand in one place an estimate about 400 hovering among the 
Phragmites stems and Baccharis bushes.  


Mike Gochfeld

 
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From spm23 at cornell.edu  Tue Jul 17 09:46:38 2001
From: spm23 at cornell.edu (spm23 at cornell.edu)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:46:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Monarchs are here!
In-Reply-To: <1010717060635.ZM15534@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010717094051.27103C-100000@travelers.mail.cornell.edu>

For those of you interested in the Monarch March:  I was out yesterday 
here in Central New York (Ithaca + environs) and I saw my first Monarch 
of the year.  In fact, I saw lots of Monarch butterflies...my best guess 
is about two dozen.  I actually netted the first one I came across 
thinking it was a Viceroy.  No mistaking them up close though.  

Cheers,

Sean

 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Tue Jul 17 10:04:43 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:04:43 -0400
Subject: Monarchs are here!
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A6B@NTFS2>

I have begun to see Monarchs here on the North Shore of Boston (a few
individuals) starting about the 4th of July. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	spm23 at cornell.edu [SMTP:spm23 at cornell.edu]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 17, 2001 9:47 AM
> To:	Michael Gochfeld
> Cc:	leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	Monarchs are here!
> 
> For those of you interested in the Monarch March:  I was out yesterday 
> here in Central New York (Ithaca + environs) and I saw my first Monarch 
> of the year.  In fact, I saw lots of Monarch butterflies...my best guess 
> is about two dozen.  I actually netted the first one I came across 
> thinking it was a Viceroy.  No mistaking them up close though.  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Sean
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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> 
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From birdcr at concentric.net  Tue Jul 17 19:06:57 2001
From: birdcr at concentric.net (Randy Emmitt)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:06:57 -0400
Subject: Red Admiral Chrysalis in closed up leaf?
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010717185131.023ebe30@pop3.concentric.net>

Folks,

Today in my garden I found a Red Admiral Chrysalis in a folded and sealed 
up False Nettle leaf. Just like they normally eat the leaves from their 
protected leaf shelter. My questions are was this caterpillar over zealous 
in what it could eat or was it planning on over wintering inside the leaf? 
I`d think if a Red Admiral adult emerged inside this live green leaf it 
couldn`t escape?

I`ve found only two caterpillars and loads of tops cut off by caterpillars 
in my 40 foot long native patch of False Nettle, many adults are visiting 
daily and leaving eggs.

I took tripod photos of the Chrysalis and had a bonus show up on another 
leaf a fat black and orange  longhorn beetle. The longhorn beetle I`m not 
sure if its using the False Nettle as a host plant or not.

Randy Emmitt
Rougemont, NC

Butterflies of North Carolina Online!
http://www.rlephoto.com/butterflies/butterflies.html
Carolina Butterfly Society webmaster
http://www.carolinabutterflysociety.org/


 
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From dracolich5 at aol.com  Tue Jul 17 22:29:13 2001
From: dracolich5 at aol.com (Dracolich5)
Date: 18 Jul 2001 02:29:13 GMT
Subject: Any books solely on Saturniidae?
Message-ID: <20010717222913.15703.00003386@ng-cl1.aol.com>

  I just got through a website which cataloged a good number of Saturniidae
species from several world locations, and was interested in further "reading." 


  I guess what I'm looking for is one of those elusive field guideish books
that covers worldwide specimens.  A book that had information, but was also
backed up with useful photos to aid on identifying both males and females. 
Awhile back, I purchased a book on Amazon about the Moccasin group of snakes. 
That kind of format is what I'm after.  Any suggestions???


K. Szoke

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Wed Jul 18 03:06:38 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:06:38 -0400
Subject: Painted Lady
References: <8.1733da41.288479bb@aol.com> <00e401c10e25$02d6e0a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <00ad01c10f58$30d09800$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

ALL - Just got back from the North Carolina mountains where I ran into
about 8 Painted Ladies (V. cardui) in a meadow. All very fresh.
Ron

They were in Macon County.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Painted Lady


> All -
>
>     I agree with Rick's comments about the lack of Painted Ladys
(Ladies?)
> in the Northeast in recent years.  My only encounters with V. cardui in
the
> past three calendar years were individuals in the fall along the Conn.
> coastline, which serves as a line of travel for migrant birds ,
butterflies
> and odes.
>
>     However, I did encounter an adult P.L. in early June while leading a
> Conn. Butterfly Assoc. field trip, and there have been reports of
numerous
> larvae found across the state.  In the past few days, a few CT Summer
> Butterfly Counts have reported both Ladies - V. virginensis and V.
cardui.
> I personally saw 4 Painted as well as 15 American on the New London, CT
SBC
> on July 15, which equaled my entire 1999 and 2000 sightings for Painted
> Lady.
>
>     It looks like we may very well have lots of both Ladies to watch this
> summer and fall.
>
> Clay Taylor
> Moodus, CT
> ctaylor at att.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LCooper298 at aol.com>
> To: <LEPSrUS at listbot.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Painted Lady
>
>
> > LEPSrUS
> >
> > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> > Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Below is a post I received from Rick Cech, member from NYC commenting
on
> the
> > number of Painted Ladies being seen in Florida. Anybody else seeing
them
> in
> > their yards?
> >
> > Buck & Linda:  Hi. A thought on your Painted Ladys  For 2-3 years, we
have
> > had almost no PL's in the northeast. Drought in Mexican staging areas,
> etc.
> > This year, huge influx in western US, staritng now to reflect in our
area
> > (seeing more Painteds than Americans lately). Florida has few PLs
> > historically, and maybe some seen this year are related to releases or
> > science proijects, but if you're seeing them now, I'd be more inclined
to
> > link it to a 2001 continental phenomenon than local releases.  Just a
> > thought.  Rick
> >
> > Linda and Buck Cooper
> > 558 Sunshine Blvd
> > Haines City, FL 33844-9540
> > 863.439.2704
> > LCooper298 at aol.com
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > To unsubscribe, write to LEPSrUS-unsubscribe at listbot.com
>
>
>
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>
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>
>


 
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From hkmoths at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jul 18 03:32:05 2001
From: hkmoths at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Roger=20C.=20KENDRICK?=)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:32:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Any books solely on Saturniidae?
In-Reply-To: <20010717222913.15703.00003386@ng-cl1.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010718073205.28497.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>

Check out http://www.nhbs.com/xbscripts/bksrch?r=64614;l=3

for Bernard D'Abrera's "Saturnidae [sic] Mundi"

hope this helps,

Roger.

 --- Dracolich5 <dracolich5 at aol.com> wrote: >   I just got through a website
which cataloged a good number of Saturniidae
> species from several world locations, and was interested in further
> "reading." 
> 
> 
>   I guess what I'm looking for is one of those elusive field guideish books
> that covers worldwide specimens.  A book that had information, but was also
> backed up with useful photos to aid on identifying both males and females. 
> Awhile back, I purchased a book on Amazon about the Moccasin group of snakes.
> 
> That kind of format is what I'm after.  Any suggestions???
> 
> 
> K. Szoke
>  

=====
Roger C. KENDRICK
Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Ecology & Biodiversity, The University of Hong Kong
Senior Conservation Officer, Fauna Conservation, Kadoorie Farm & Botanic Garden, H.K.
http://kfbg.org.hk/
http://hkusub.hku.hk/~kendrick/hkmoth.htm
http://hkusub.hku.hk/~kendrick/IGMHKinfo.htm
moths at kfbg.org.hk, hkmoths at yahoo.co.uk or kendrick at hkusua.hku.hk

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

 
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From Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1]  Wed Jul 18 02:10:28 2001
From: Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1] (Use-Author-Address-Header at [127.1])
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:10:28 +0800
Subject: ***I can supply Papilio krishna , syfanius , bootes ......***
Message-ID: <B0000291929@mail.saeroment.co.kr>

Hi , 
  I am a butterfly collector from China . 
  I have these butterfly specimen , all specimen in A1 quality , if you are interested in these butterfly specimen , please call me . 
Agehana elwesi 
Papilio krishna 
Papilio syfanius 
Papilio bootes 

"http://www.chineseinsect.com" . 
"Webmaster at ChineseInsect.com" .

Best regards , 
TaoRu



 
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From A.P.K.Torry at csm.ex.ac.uk  Wed Jul 18 05:37:10 2001
From: A.P.K.Torry at csm.ex.ac.uk (Andrew Torry)
Date: 18 Jul 2001 02:37:10 -0700
Subject: Mercury Vapor off a car
References: <20010711151901.25192.00001051@ng-mp1.aol.com>
Message-ID: <622884a8.0107180137.50f556ba@posting.google.com>

bmw60 at aol.com (BMW60) wrote in message news:<20010711151901.25192.00001051 at ng-mp1.aol.com>...
> I purchased a converter from radio shack sometime back and it works fine with a
> 175mv unit.  Buy, the RENTAL car you are using may not have the power in the
> cigarette lighter to do the job.  I had an alligator clip made so I could  run
> directly off the battery to bypass this, with great results.  I'm not sure I
> would want to run my personal vehicle all night, but in a pinch I would.   Good
> Luck   Bill In Tucson

Just a tip I was given for running lights off an inverter. You can
make the 'High voltage' side of the inverter leads quite long but
ensure that the 'Low voltage' leads (The leads to the battery) are no
longer than a metre. The current being drawn from the battery is huge
and a significant voltage drop will occur if your battery leads are
too long.

Also note that 'inverters' cannot drive purely inductive loads like
electric drills/motors etc. If you try you will most likely blow the
high power drive transistors.

I have an old 'inverter' that is based around a 12V DC industrial
motor and a 240V AC dynamo. This can drive inductive loads up to 1KW
and is very quiet if a bit heavy but not as heavy as a petrol driven
generator.

Andrew T

 
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From oehlkew at islandtelecom.com  Wed Jul 18 06:15:08 2001
From: oehlkew at islandtelecom.com (William Oehlke)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:15:08 -0300
Subject: Saturniidae resource
Message-ID: <001601c10f72$86351a40$04f3b18e@oehlke>

K. Szoke wrote:
"I just got through a website which cataloged a good number of Saturniidae
species from several world locations, and was interested in further "reading." 


"I guess what I'm looking for is one of those elusive field guideish books
that covers worldwide specimens.  A book that had information, but was also
backed up with useful photos to aid on identifying both males and females. 
Awhile back, I purchased a book on Amazon about the Moccasin group of snakes. 
That kind of format is what I'm after.  Any suggestions???"

I suggest you visit http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew

There are links from this site to African, Asian, Australian, European, Mexican, North and South American Saturniidae.  If this internet format is of interest to you, then you would much enjoy the site described at

http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/indexos.htm





If this response has been helpful or if you have enjoyed the pictures and information on one of my websites, please go to
http://www.silkmoths.bizland.com/emerge.htm 
and click on the flashing butterfly. This helps to promote my sites.  
Thankyou!

Bill Oehlke
Box 476, Montague, P.E.I., Canada C0A 1R0
http://www3.islandtelecom.com/~oehlkew
oehlkew at islandtelecom.com
Phone: 902-838-3455
fax: 902-838-0866
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From colina.jacobs at benacre.fsnet.co.uk  Wed Jul 18 14:55:20 2001
From: colina.jacobs at benacre.fsnet.co.uk (Colin Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:55:20 +0100
Subject: Moth Cocoon query
Message-ID: <9j4m4v$9dv$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>

Today in my Local Wood In Suffolk UK I found the umbels in seed form of
Hogweed (Heracleum sphondylium) gathered
up into a cocoon type structure. On opening it up I found a small
caterpillar off white in colour with small black dots on each segment.

I think it is the Garden Dart moth (Euxoa nigricans) or   Agonopterix
heracliana

but would appreciate any ideas from you please

Colin J
United Kingdom



 
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From jem at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu  Wed Jul 18 15:37:47 2001
From: jem at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu (James E. Maruniak)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:37:47 -0400
Subject: Autographa californica
Message-ID: <3B55E58B.E98C194F@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>

July 18, 2001
From: Jim Maruniak <jem at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>
Organization: University of Florida

I am looking for specimens of Autographa californica larvae or adults.
Please contact me.  Thanks, Jim Maruniak


 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Wed Jul 18 16:45:37 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:45:37 -0700
Subject: Southwest Wings Birding and Nature Festival
Message-ID: <3B55F571.A60A6EAA@theriver.com>

With the ever-expanding interest in Butterflying the SWW Festival
(August 8 - 11) is presenting the following activities: Two butterfly
field trips to Garden Canyon (more than 150 species have been seen along
the five mile stretch of road in the canyon).  It will be in the heart
of monsoon time and the flowers will be dripping with butterflies. 
There will also be Butterfly lectures and workshops.
So come on down and discover the secrets of southeastern Arizona during
the monsoons.
For more info call 800-946-4777.

-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Wed Jul 18 23:57:43 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:57:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Painted Lady
References: <00e401c10e25$02d6e0a0$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <22099-3B565AB7-18@storefull-126.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

I've seen a dozen or so here in Delaware County, NY, all Painted though,
no American.


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From Guy_VdP at t-online.de  Thu Jul 19 06:09:46 2001
From: Guy_VdP at t-online.de (Guy Van de Poel & A. Kalus)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:09:46 +0200
Subject: veronius or veronicus
Message-ID: <000701c1103a$fc04b8c0$b31558d9@server>

Can anybody help:

Kudrna, 1985 (European butterflies named by Hans Fruhstorfer) lists
veronicus Fruhstorfer, 1917 (with c) as a ssp. of alciphron Rottemburg,
1775, and this on pages 46, 49.

Leraut (in both checklists, 1980 and 1997) lists it as veronius Fruhstorfer,
1917 (without c).

According to Kudrna above, Fruhstorfer published it in Entomologische
Rundschau 34:17 (Neue Lycaeniden).

Is this the same thing ?
If so, which one is correct ?
If not, where was veronius published ?

Thanks,

Guy.

Guy Van de Poel
Guy_VdP at t-online.de

Royal Entomological Society of Antwerp
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/fransjanssens/index.html



 
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From spruance at infinet.com  Thu Jul 19 10:41:55 2001
From: spruance at infinet.com (Eric or Pat Metzler)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:41:55 -0400
Subject: Any books solely on Saturniidae?
References: <20010717222913.15703.00003386@ng-cl1.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3b56f2e9$0$12824$ac966d11@news.raex.com>

There are many good books on Saturniidae, but none on a World-wide basis.
There are just too many species for such a treatment.

Good luck,

Eric Metzler from Columbus Ohio where it is very hot and humid, and we have
17 species of Saturniidae.


"Dracolich5" <dracolich5 at aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010717222913.15703.00003386 at ng-cl1.aol.com...
>   I just got through a website which cataloged a good number of
Saturniidae
> species from several world locations, and was interested in further
"reading."
>
>
>   I guess what I'm looking for is one of those elusive field guideish
books
> that covers worldwide specimens.  A book that had information, but was
also
> backed up with useful photos to aid on identifying both males and females.
> Awhile back, I purchased a book on Amazon about the Moccasin group of
snakes.
> That kind of format is what I'm after.  Any suggestions???
>
>
> K. Szoke



 
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From John.Calhoun at SempermedUSA.com  Thu Jul 19 13:23:56 2001
From: John.Calhoun at SempermedUSA.com (John.Calhoun at SempermedUSA.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:23:56 -0400
Subject: Painted Ladies
Message-ID: <00df01c11077$9736fb00$7c00000a@John>

I thought I would add a few comments about observations of V. cardui here in Florida.  I returned from a trip to Austria to find two V. cardui hanging around some yellow lantanas in my yard.  This was truly startling as I had seen the species in Europe, only to come home and see them in my front yard where I had never seen them before!  They were there all that day and were still there the next morning.  The following day, one of them was seen sunning itself near the lantanas.  It flew up over the house and that was the last I've seen of them (two days ago). In the twelve years I've lived in Florida, I have never seen V. cardui in my yard.  The general rule in Florida is that you rarely see more than one at a time, and you're lucky to see one at all.  The species is also being observed in various other areas of the state, primarily the northern and central counties.  Until this year, I estimate that I've only seen 5 or 6 V. cardui during the nearly thirty years I've studied butterflies in Florida.

John Calhoun


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From MWalker at gensym.com  Thu Jul 19 14:59:02 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:59:02 -0400
Subject: Island Paradise - 7/16/01
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DBC@hqmail.gensym.com>

No, not the Bahamas.  Not Fiji.  This is Mt. Charleston, just north and west
of Las Vegas, NV.

It's really a fascinating chunk of high altitude mountain habitat right in
the middle of the non-oasis that is Las Vegas.  Bill Gendron and I decided
to drive from SoCal early on Monday to see what was flying.  It's an easy
drive, even if it takes almost five hours (three of those are through the
middle of the Mojave desert).  We left early enough to escape most of the
heat, and arrived in the Spring Mountains by 11:00 a.m.  As you head for
higher altitudes (there are a number of access roads, including the well
known Kyle and Lee canyons just north of the city), the desert chaparral is
quickly replaced with  pinon and juniper, which is then replaced by aspen
and pine.  The highest altitudes are above the timberline altogether.

As we arrived at roads end, we were embraced by the cool temperature.  No
signs of the misery being endured in the desert below - this was a piece of
heaven, and the people that frequent this area (who include the Vegasites
that prefer snowsports) are more mountain goat then they are desert rat.
All trails head virtually straight up, and there are several thousand feet
in elevation to go in this direction.  Along with the cool temperature came
a ubiquity of green.  There were lots of plants in bloom - none more common
than a species of thistle, which was sprouting up everywhere.

There was little water at the medium elevations this year, which didn't bode
well for the summer lep populations.  I suspect, based on the lack of leps
and the condition of the Limenitis weidemeyerii (which was mostly worn) that
we were a bit late - late June would have been ideal.  Nevertheless, there
were leps on the wing.  There were many Celastrina flying between the lower
bushes, and we even found a number of the unique little Plebejus icarioides
flying about a very strange looking lupine growing on the roadside.  Also
surprisingly common were Polygonia gracilis (Hoary Comma).  We thought we
had seen Polygonia satyrus, but none of the specimens I brought home were
this species.  We'd see an occasional Speyeria (zerene?) carolae hover by,
but were disappointed that they weren't more common.  

With little to examine except for the above mentioned leps and an abundance
of Colias eurytheme (Orange Sulphur), we headed up one of the local trails
to higher terrain.  Before long we found ourselves in a mature pine forest
with lots of thistle.  Here is where we starting seeing an abundance of
Frits.  At the end of the day, the pretty Carol's Fritillary was the most
common butterfly we had seen.  It is a very unique insect, as Fritillaries
go, quite obviously different than the other western Frits I've encountered.
Needless to say, we were quite pleased to enjoy it's abundance.  I went on
to even higher elevations, only to tire and dream of a return trip when I'll
come prepared to stay.

By 4:00 p.m. we were bushwhacked and dehydrated, and in need of heading for
home.  We were not pleased to find the desert still inhospitably hot, and
quickly wished we were back up at high altitude.  At 6:30 p.m., in Baker,
CA., the world's largest thermometer was reading 97 degrees F.

Our list:

Papilio rutulus (Western Tiger Swallowtail)

Neophasia menapia (Pine White)
Colias eurytheme (Orange Sulphur)
Nathalis iole (Dainty Sulphur)

Strymon melinus (Gray Hairstreak)
Leptotes marina (Marine Blue)
Celastrina ladon (Spring Azure)
Plebejus icarioides (Boisduval's Blue)

Speyeria (zerene) carolae (Carol's Fritillary)
Euptoieta claudia (Variegated Fritillary)
Polygonia gracilis (Hoary Comma)
Vanessa cardui (Painted Lady)
Vanessa annabella (West Coast Lady)
Vanessa atalanta (Red Admiral)
Limenitis weidemeyerii (Weidemeyer's Admiral)
Cercyonis pegala (Common Wood Nymph)

Danaus plexippus (Monarch)

Hesperia colorado (Branded Skipper)

Mark Walker
Oceanside, CA

 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Thu Jul 19 14:59:32 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:59:32 -0500
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>

Hello all,

I'm going to be mounting a lot of big fat moth specimens.  The ambient 
humidity is around 65-85% (including indoors unless I air condition).  This 
is normal for summer here.  In these conditions I've found that bumblebees 
rot before they dry, so big moths probably would too.   I decided this 
could be fixed by putting the specimens in my car sitting in the sun.   I 
just measured the temperature in there and it's 51C (124F).   This should 
be sufficient to lower the humidity enough, but I worry that the heat will 
hurt the specimens in some way.  (They are not in direct sun.)   Does 
anyone know?

I'm also gonna try a big cardboard box with an incandescent light bulb in 
it.  The specimens can go in here for a week after the initial drying in 
the car.   Any experience/advice with this type of setup?

(Paying to aircondition the whole apartment for two weeks to dry bugs is 
too painful to consider.  The oven won't work either for various 
reasons.  In the past, specimens dried well under an incandescent desk 
light, but now there are too many of them to fit.)

Thank you....

Liz


-------------------------------------------------------------
Liz Day
Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous 
forest.
daylight at kiva.net
www.kiva.net/~daylight
-------------------------------------------------------------



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 19 15:42:32 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:42:32 -0400
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

You do have a dilemma.  Having tried various drying techniques myself I
will just address here for you, and those reading, a couple of pit falls to
avoid.

It was really stupid on my part, but I once used wax paper as pinning
strips and inserted the specimens into the oven. You can figure the rest. A
point here is that techniques that work fine in one situation can be a
disaster in another. I don't expect anyone to be as stupid as I, but just
consider all possibilities before proceeding and ruining good specimens. No
Styrofoam mounting boards in the heat either. Nothing that will warp, melt,
bleed color, etc.

Something needs to cover the entire wings as quick drying will curl them. I
rarely heat dry specimens any more. As in Liz's case, it is the big fat
stuff we do this with. the tiny guys will dry OK on their own. The key word
if FAT. It melts. You may not see it for a several months - but heat begins
to break it down and greatly accelerates greasing. For me, no more
Megathymus (Giant Skippers) in the oven. I now freeze them, slice open
their abdomen, remove the cold contents, stuff with cotton, super glue the
incision, and by now they have thawed and I mount them.

So my bottom line here is that I have no alternative dryer suggestion. Just
a warning to all to think it through before damaging specimens. Very low
heat is essential, drying by evaporation takes time.
Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: "Liz Day" <beebuzz at kiva.net>
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions


> Hello all,
>
> I'm going to be mounting a lot of big fat moth specimens.  The ambient
> humidity is around 65-85% (including indoors unless I air condition).
This
> is normal for summer here.  In these conditions I've found that
bumblebees
> rot before they dry, so big moths probably would too.   I decided this
> could be fixed by putting the specimens in my car sitting in the sun.   I
> just measured the temperature in there and it's 51C (124F).   This should
> be sufficient to lower the humidity enough, but I worry that the heat
will
> hurt the specimens in some way.  (They are not in direct sun.)   Does
> anyone know?
>
> I'm also gonna try a big cardboard box with an incandescent light bulb in
> it.  The specimens can go in here for a week after the initial drying in
> the car.   Any experience/advice with this type of setup?
>
> (Paying to aircondition the whole apartment for two weeks to dry bugs is
> too painful to consider.  The oven won't work either for various
> reasons.  In the past, specimens dried well under an incandescent desk
> light, but now there are too many of them to fit.)
>
> Thank you....
>
> Liz
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Liz Day
> Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
> USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous
> forest.
> daylight at kiva.net
> www.kiva.net/~daylight
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Thu Jul 19 15:57:59 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:57:59 -0400
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378A97@NTFS2>

...and watch out for pests; I lost about 10 specimens to ants on the
spreading boards about a month ago, including a beautiful Hybrid Admiral
(albofasciata; Red Spotted Purple/White Admiral) and a Hoary Edge. I now let
everything dry in a large sealed tupperware container (occasionaaly with PDB
crystals inside). Talk about being stupid.....

And, like Ron, I don't use heat; I just give it time...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 19, 2001 3:43 PM
> To:	beebuzz at kiva.net
> Cc:	Leps-l
> Subject:	Re: drying specimens in humid conditions
> 
> You do have a dilemma.  Having tried various drying techniques myself I
> will just address here for you, and those reading, a couple of pit falls
> to
> avoid.
> 
> It was really stupid on my part, but I once used wax paper as pinning
> strips and inserted the specimens into the oven. You can figure the rest.
> A
> point here is that techniques that work fine in one situation can be a
> disaster in another. I don't expect anyone to be as stupid as I, but just
> consider all possibilities before proceeding and ruining good specimens.
> No
> Styrofoam mounting boards in the heat either. Nothing that will warp,
> melt,
> bleed color, etc.
> 
> Something needs to cover the entire wings as quick drying will curl them.
> I
> rarely heat dry specimens any more. As in Liz's case, it is the big fat
> stuff we do this with. the tiny guys will dry OK on their own. The key
> word
> if FAT. It melts. You may not see it for a several months - but heat
> begins
> to break it down and greatly accelerates greasing. For me, no more
> Megathymus (Giant Skippers) in the oven. I now freeze them, slice open
> their abdomen, remove the cold contents, stuff with cotton, super glue the
> incision, and by now they have thawed and I mount them.
> 
> So my bottom line here is that I have no alternative dryer suggestion.
> Just
> a warning to all to think it through before damaging specimens. Very low
> heat is essential, drying by evaporation takes time.
> Ron
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liz Day" <beebuzz at kiva.net>
> Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
> 
> 
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I'm going to be mounting a lot of big fat moth specimens.  The ambient
> > humidity is around 65-85% (including indoors unless I air condition).
> This
> > is normal for summer here.  In these conditions I've found that
> bumblebees
> > rot before they dry, so big moths probably would too.   I decided this
> > could be fixed by putting the specimens in my car sitting in the sun.
> I
> > just measured the temperature in there and it's 51C (124F).   This
> should
> > be sufficient to lower the humidity enough, but I worry that the heat
> will
> > hurt the specimens in some way.  (They are not in direct sun.)   Does
> > anyone know?
> >
> > I'm also gonna try a big cardboard box with an incandescent light bulb
> in
> > it.  The specimens can go in here for a week after the initial drying in
> > the car.   Any experience/advice with this type of setup?
> >
> > (Paying to aircondition the whole apartment for two weeks to dry bugs is
> > too painful to consider.  The oven won't work either for various
> > reasons.  In the past, specimens dried well under an incandescent desk
> > light, but now there are too many of them to fit.)
> >
> > Thank you....
> >
> > Liz
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > Liz Day
> > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
> > USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous
> > forest.
> > daylight at kiva.net
> > www.kiva.net/~daylight
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
> >
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From MWalker at gensym.com  Thu Jul 19 16:32:00 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:32:00 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DBF@hqmail.gensym.com>

Ron Gatrelle wrote:

<much snippage>

2) A
> transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
> change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
> understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all 
> "experts" and so more
> than one alignment may be found. However, the original 
> epithet given to the
> individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
> adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable 
> epithets or
> from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will 
> provide an
> everlasting unchanging nomenclature.

Just curious:  so what happens when an organism that is the oldest owner of
some original immutable name is later discovered to belong to another genus
with a different immutable name.  Is the old name now associated with the
next-oldest organism currently associated with that name?  Or can this be
justification for renaming the remaining organisms in this line?  What if
there is an older name originally assigned to the second-oldest organism -
one that was discarded when it was determined that it should be associated
with the former?

Sorry.  I'm just enjoying the complexity of it all as I prepare to relax
some specimens whose name I'm not even sure of, but whose beauty I am sure
of.

Mark Walker
Oceanside, CA
> 

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From MWalker at gensym.com  Thu Jul 19 16:57:01 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:57:01 -0400
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DC0@hqmail.gensym.com>

Here in Oceanside we have a serious problem with introduced ants from
Argentina.  To my horror, they managed to find my spreading boards a few
weeks ago.  They decimated an immaculate Callophrys nelsoni, chewed the
insides away from some Hesperia juba, and started to ream the abdomen of an
immaculate Papilio bairdii.  For some reason, they completely ignored two
perfect Euphydryas editha.  There is nothing worse than having some
parasitic insect cruelly destroy the beautiful little creatures that I have
mercilessly annihilated.

Seriously though, nothing is worse for the lepidopterist.  All the work of
hunting, relaxing, and spreading - only to provide lunch for some vagabond
cousin.  Too bad these pests are rarely worthy of being mounted themselves.

Mark Walker
Oceanside, CA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:58 PM
> To: 'Ron Gatrelle'; beebuzz at kiva.net
> Cc: Leps-l
> Subject: RE: drying specimens in humid conditions
> 
> 
> ...and watch out for pests; I lost about 10 specimens to ants on the
> spreading boards about a month ago, including a beautiful 
> Hybrid Admiral
> (albofasciata; Red Spotted Purple/White Admiral) and a Hoary 
> Edge. I now let
> everything dry in a large sealed tupperware container 
> (occasionaaly with PDB
> crystals inside). Talk about being stupid.....
> 
> And, like Ron, I don't use heat; I just give it time...
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> > Sent:	Thursday, July 19, 2001 3:43 PM
> > To:	beebuzz at kiva.net
> > Cc:	Leps-l
> > Subject:	Re: drying specimens in humid conditions
> > 
> > You do have a dilemma.  Having tried various drying 
> techniques myself I
> > will just address here for you, and those reading, a couple 
> of pit falls
> > to
> > avoid.
> > 
> > It was really stupid on my part, but I once used wax paper 
> as pinning
> > strips and inserted the specimens into the oven. You can 
> figure the rest.
> > A
> > point here is that techniques that work fine in one 
> situation can be a
> > disaster in another. I don't expect anyone to be as stupid 
> as I, but just
> > consider all possibilities before proceeding and ruining 
> good specimens.
> > No
> > Styrofoam mounting boards in the heat either. Nothing that 
> will warp,
> > melt,
> > bleed color, etc.
> > 
> > Something needs to cover the entire wings as quick drying 
> will curl them.
> > I
> > rarely heat dry specimens any more. As in Liz's case, it is 
> the big fat
> > stuff we do this with. the tiny guys will dry OK on their 
> own. The key
> > word
> > if FAT. It melts. You may not see it for a several months - but heat
> > begins
> > to break it down and greatly accelerates greasing. For me, no more
> > Megathymus (Giant Skippers) in the oven. I now freeze them, 
> slice open
> > their abdomen, remove the cold contents, stuff with cotton, 
> super glue the
> > incision, and by now they have thawed and I mount them.
> > 
> > So my bottom line here is that I have no alternative dryer 
> suggestion.
> > Just
> > a warning to all to think it through before damaging 
> specimens. Very low
> > heat is essential, drying by evaporation takes time.
> > Ron
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Liz Day" <beebuzz at kiva.net>
> > Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
> > 
> > 
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I'm going to be mounting a lot of big fat moth specimens. 
>  The ambient
> > > humidity is around 65-85% (including indoors unless I air 
> condition).
> > This
> > > is normal for summer here.  In these conditions I've found that
> > bumblebees
> > > rot before they dry, so big moths probably would too.   I 
> decided this
> > > could be fixed by putting the specimens in my car sitting 
> in the sun.
> > I
> > > just measured the temperature in there and it's 51C (124F).   This
> > should
> > > be sufficient to lower the humidity enough, but I worry 
> that the heat
> > will
> > > hurt the specimens in some way.  (They are not in direct 
> sun.)   Does
> > > anyone know?
> > >
> > > I'm also gonna try a big cardboard box with an 
> incandescent light bulb
> > in
> > > it.  The specimens can go in here for a week after the 
> initial drying in
> > > the car.   Any experience/advice with this type of setup?
> > >
> > > (Paying to aircondition the whole apartment for two weeks 
> to dry bugs is
> > > too painful to consider.  The oven won't work either for various
> > > reasons.  In the past, specimens dried well under an 
> incandescent desk
> > > light, but now there are too many of them to fit.)
> > >
> > > Thank you....
> > >
> > > Liz
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Liz Day
> > > Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
> > > USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly 
> temperate deciduous
> > > forest.
> > > daylight at kiva.net
> > > www.kiva.net/~daylight
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> > >
> > >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >  
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > 
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> > 
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
> >  
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  
> 

 
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From KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us  Thu Jul 19 16:54:38 2001
From: KeRichers at wasco.k12.ca.us (Kelly Richers)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:54:38 -0700
Subject: And what is in a name?
Message-ID: <sb56e6bd.014@wasco.k12.ca.us>

Well, it just so happens I am in the middle of a mess like that, so let me reply.  I caught a moth new to the United States in Pena Blanca, Arizona in 1989, and could not identify it.  Within two years, through the Smithsonian, I had it identified, with the help of experts, as Scoriopsis orsuna (Druce).  Unfortunately, Scoriopsis  as a genus was taken with priority through ICZN rules by another genus through prior publication naming, so the second genus listing identification took priority.  Imagine my disturbance to discover that the second moth genus naming datewise was "Speyeria".  Any one with butterfly interests knows that that one was dead in the water until another took priority.  I am pleased to say that the British Museum just organized the genus again and it is in their $350.00 book which I haven't purchased yet under another acceptable name.  That is the way these things work, and that is why some of us don't publish for 12 years or so after a discovery!

>>> Mark Walker <MWalker at gensym.com> 07/19/01 01:32PM >>>
Ron Gatrelle wrote:

<much snippage>

2) A
> transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to a
> change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
> understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all 
> "experts" and so more
> than one alignment may be found. However, the original 
> epithet given to the
> individual organism stays the same as it is immutable. In time all the
> adjustments (from finding and adopting the original immutable 
> epithets or
> from understanding the true evolutionary relationships) will 
> provide an
> everlasting unchanging nomenclature.

Just curious:  so what happens when an organism that is the oldest owner of
some original immutable name is later discovered to belong to another genus
with a different immutable name.  Is the old name now associated with the
next-oldest organism currently associated with that name?  Or can this be
justification for renaming the remaining organisms in this line?  What if
there is an older name originally assigned to the second-oldest organism -
one that was discarded when it was determined that it should be associated
with the former?

Sorry.  I'm just enjoying the complexity of it all as I prepare to relax
some specimens whose name I'm not even sure of, but whose beauty I am sure
of.

Mark Walker
Oceanside, CA
> 


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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Thu Jul 19 17:39:27 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:39:27 -0500
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
In-Reply-To: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719163223.00a98a10@b.pop.kiva.net>

 >You do have a dilemma.

Yeah.   I wonder what people do in the tropics.  A friend in North Carolina 
claims he dries all his stuff in a frost-free refrigerator, as the humidity 
there is simply too high to ever get anything to dry.

 >FAT. It melts.

Yes, am planning to remove and degrease abdomens after they are dry.

 >.... I now freeze them, slice open their abdomen, remove the cold 
contents, stuff with cotton, super glue the incision, and by now they have 
thawed and I mount them.

Why freeze first, why not just cut open?

Liz 


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 19 18:06:18 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:06:18 -0400
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net> <4.3.2.7.1.20010719163223.00a98a10@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <00c901c1109f$0a0c3060$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Liz Day" <beebuzz at kiva.net>
Subject: Re: drying specimens in humid conditions
>
> Why freeze first, why not just cut open?
>
> Liz

All my Megs have come from reared material. This is how I put them to sleep
after they emerge. The freezing also makes all the fat stick together and
it comes out real easy. Which in turn prevents heat from my fingers from
smearing grease all over it and me. :-) Of course, freezing also separates
the body water from the body oils - which will increase greasing of
specimens too. This is the lesser of several evils. .
RG


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 19 18:32:51 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:32:51 -0400
Subject: And what is in a name?
References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DBF@hqmail.gensym.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c110a2$bfbf0d80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Some cross posting. Some missed references for previous not so crossed.

Mark Walker" <MWalker at gensym.com> wrote.
Subject: RE: And what is in a name?

> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> <much snippage>
> 2) A transfer of organisms into a new or another genus (or species due to
> > a change in rank to subspecies) occurs through new evolutionary
> > understanding. This is not always agreed upon by all "experts" and so
>> more than one alignment may be found. However, the original
> > epithet given to the individual organism stays the same as it is
> > immutable. In time all the adjustments (from finding and adopting
> > the original immutable epithets or from understanding the true
> > evolutionary relationships) will provide an
> > everlasting unchanging nomenclature.
>
> Just curious:  so what happens when an organism that is the oldest owner
> of some original immutable name is later discovered to belong to another
> genus with a different immutable name.  Is the old name now associated
> with the next-oldest organism currently associated with that name?  Or
> can this be justification for renaming the remaining organisms in this
> line? What if there is an older name originally assigned to the
> second-oldest organism - one that was discarded when it was determined
> that it should be associated with the former?
>
> Sorry.  I'm just enjoying the complexity of it all as I prepare to relax
> some specimens whose name I'm not even sure of, but whose beauty
> I am sure of.
>
> Mark Walker
> Oceanside, CA
> >

    This is not an answer to your maze but maybe not so unrelated either.
Some things are true  even though they appear totally contradictory. This
is because they are mutually exclusive.
    Systematics, taxonomy, and nomenclature are all one - as an apple's
core, meat, and skin are all distinct but irreducibly necessary for there
to be apples. (The rules of nomenclature, by the way, are the tracks on
which sytematics and it taxonomic cargo run.) So, I disagree with
Gochfeld's post earlier in the week that "...taxonomy is only the
underpinning."
    Anyway.  Life is seen at three levels - the past, the present and the
future. We have deleanated the ancient past, we are definig the present,
but I see no taxonomic or nomenclatorial consideration for the future.
Perhaps this is why so many seem to move away from subspecies and I am so
drawn to them. What will be tomorrow will not arise from the a kingdom, a
family, a gunus or a species. It will all arise from the tiny capalary of
subspecies. The area where genetic study sees virtually nothing - but where
the entire biota of the future is dynamically coming into being.
    The contradiction. Today's individual subspecific (or specific if mono)
epithet as the lowest determinable or recognizable distinctly unique
biological entity is immutable.
    The mutually exclusive. What it evolves into tomorrow
will receive a different epithet (name or code or number) this too will be
immutable. Why? They are different, that's why. Like steps on a ladder. Now
this takes mucho tiempo. Which is why I said in my most recent
philosophical post that after millions of years I hope nomenclature will
have functioned as a family album full of evolutionary snap shots. Little
new born John Rodger Smith III.  Then little Johnny at age 10. At 16, JS to
anyone who mattered. At 40 Dr. J. Rodger Smith. or Grandpa. Each unique and
each the same. If birds came from dinosaurs does that make dinosaurs birds
or birds dinosaurs?  A taxon is only what it is today - it has a man given
identity. As long as it is an X we will always call it an X. When it
becomes a Y we will then call it a Y. But even when it is a Y in the now
the name X is still the immutable tag for what it was in the past. With W
still to come.

In time all the adjustments (from finding and adopting the original
immutable epithets or from understanding the true evolutionary
 relationships) will provide an everlasting unchanging nomenclature
(by 6240 layered as a time/space record) - not everlasting unchanging
organisms. Thus, a seeming contradiction from the mutually exclusive.

Ron


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 19 19:46:09 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:46:09 -0400
Subject: Stuffed specimens.
Message-ID: <00f701c110ac$ff1e9c20$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

If anyone would like to know my materials and procedure for de-fating and
stuffing large fatty specimens just email me and I'll send you a copy of a
text on this. I am sure there is a beter way to do this. But you can see my
basic steps and improve on them.
Ron


 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Thu Jul 19 22:32:25 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 21:32:25 -0500
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719163223.00a98a10@b.pop.kiva.net>
References: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010719212352.02c7a860@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I have heard that the latest, cutting edge research technique is to
        cut the wings off and dry in glassine envelopes
             put the body in absolute alcohol to preserve the DNA!

As long as one is not a "stamp collector" type - this makes a lot of sense
        takes up much less space
             and removes the specimens from the clutches of ants, booklice 
and dermestids.

For drying in the tropics silica gel, freshly roasted, in a sealed tin is 
essential. There ants and mold are the biggest problems. I am opposed to 
stuffing because potentially interesting parts are lost. My father did it 
though for beetles he collected in South Africa, in the early half of the 
last century.

............Chris Durden


At 04:39 PM 7/19/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >You do have a dilemma.
>
>Yeah.   I wonder what people do in the tropics.  A friend in North 
>Carolina claims he dries all his stuff in a frost-free refrigerator, as 
>the humidity there is simply too high to ever get anything to dry.
>
> >FAT. It melts.
>
>Yes, am planning to remove and degrease abdomens after they are dry.
>
> >.... I now freeze them, slice open their abdomen, remove the cold 
> contents, stuff with cotton, super glue the incision, and by now they 
> have thawed and I mount them.
>
>Why freeze first, why not just cut open?
>
>Liz



 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Fri Jul 20 00:02:33 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 23:02:33 -0500
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
In-Reply-To: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719225423.00aa3e30@b.pop.kiva.net>

I often wonder what everyone else is doing.  Not that I necessarily expect 
it to apply to my situation; I'm just curious.  I mean, the whole eastern 
US is humid and I can't be the only person pinning big bugs.

Ron's suggestions for gutting the abdomen are good, but I don't think 
they'd work for other bugs like beetles and bees.   Where does anyone find 
a dry area between June and September??  Do you all just use silica gel?  I 
suppose you could freeze everything and not mount it til winter when it's 
dry indoors.  Or you could join a health club, and bring your specimens 
with you into the sauna every day, until the staff noticed and started 
pestering you to get them some of those cool moths too.  But probably 
people are using other methods.  Just wondering.

Liz


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 20 00:33:13 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 00:33:13 -0400
Subject: preserving dna
References: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20010719212352.02c7a860@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <024e01c110d5$16fc5a80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


Chris J. Durden <drdn at mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

> I have heard that the latest, cutting edge research technique is to
>         cut the wings off and dry in glassine envelopes
>              put the body in absolute alcohol to preserve the DNA!
>
This brings up a good subject. My understanding is that water destroys the
DNA and that a specific alcohol is to be used. Which?  Some may be
preserving tissue for future analysis in vain if not using the correct
medium.
Ron


 
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From cjyoung at postoffice.utas.edu.au  Fri Jul 20 01:34:04 2001
From: cjyoung at postoffice.utas.edu.au (Catherine Young)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:34:04 +1000
Subject: dna preservation
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010720153404.00d5bee8@postoffice.utas.edu.au>

I've never heard that DNA is damaged by water.  It would be hard to imagine
how it could survive in the cell if it was.  I routinely dissolve
precipitated, purified  DNA in water and freeze it as a means of storage.
However, as far as storing animal body parts goes to optimize DNA yield the
best way is freezing preferably at approx.-70 degrees C, but -20 degrees C
seems to work fine for the moths I'm working with.  If this is too
difficult storing in absolute ethanol, preferably keeping them cold as
well, seems to work almost as well for some organisms.  I've also
successfully extracted DNA from pinned, dried specimens up to 10 yrs old.
Other people I know have done the same from 80 yr old specimens.
  I guess DNA is a remarkably stable molecule.  It needs to be otherwise
things can go terribly wrong in organism development.   I've also just
heard that chloroform killed specimens are almost impossible to extract
from. 


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 20 02:05:59 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 02:05:59 -0400
Subject: dna preservation
References: <3.0.6.32.20010720153404.00d5bee8@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Message-ID: <027801c110e2$0c717520$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

comments below.

Catherine Young <cjyoung at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
wrote:

> I've never heard that DNA is damaged by water.  It would be hard to
imagine
> how it could survive in the cell if it was.  I routinely dissolve
> precipitated, purified  DNA in water and freeze it as a means of storage.
> However, as far as storing animal body parts goes to optimize DNA yield
the
> best way is freezing preferably at approx.-70 degrees C, but -20 degrees
C
> seems to work fine for the moths I'm working with.  If this is too
> difficult storing in absolute ethanol, preferably keeping them cold as
> well, seems to work almost as well for some organisms.  I've also
> successfully extracted DNA from pinned, dried specimens up to 10 yrs old.
> Other people I know have done the same from 80 yr old specimens.
>   I guess DNA is a remarkably stable molecule.  It needs to be otherwise
> things can go terribly wrong in organism development.   I've also just
> heard that chloroform killed specimens are almost impossible to extract
> from.
>
 I was surprised to think that water would damage it also. Which is why I
posted about it.  A few weeks ago I was down in Gainesville, Fl at the
Department of Plant Industry doing some research and overheard an involved
conversation between some of the Coleoptera (Beetle) guys there about
various ways and means of handling DNA. One guy  got into the water thing
and that "it is the water that deteriorates the --------- in the DNA..."
when stored in it. Don't remember the part of the DNA. It was an
interesting conversation and I kept getting distracted by it.

I have sent specimens to specialists for analysis and just one year old
specimens in heavy pdb fumes have had severely damaged DNA.
Ron


 
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From Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se  Fri Jul 20 04:32:31 2001
From: Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se (Niklas Wahlberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:32:31 +0200
Subject: preserving dna
In-Reply-To: <024e01c110d5$16fc5a80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
References: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20010719212352.02c7a860@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010720095027.00b48cf8@mail.it.su.se>

Hi all,
     Here's my perspective on DNA samples from butterflies. I've been 
working with it almost daily for the past 4 years and I've extracted DNA 
from close to 1000 specimens. First of all, I never cut off the wings and 
put the body into the freezer, I extract the DNA from two legs (or one if 
it's a big one), leaving the rest of the specimen unharmed and maximally 
useful for taxonomic purposes (if necessary!). I store the extracted DNA in 
the freezer (enough for 50-200 PCRs depending on the freshness of the 
specimen). As far as I'm aware, water itself has not harmed my extracts. 
Many of my extracts are from dried specimens that colleagues and friends 
have sent from around the world. These can be tricky and this is where 
water can be a problem, through humidity. Specimens stored even briefly in 
humid conditions are generally useless for DNA work (this obviously applies 
to specimens relaxed in a humid box for spreading). The reason is most 
likely that bacteria and fungi (moulds) get into the butterfly and 
basically have a party, ie eat up anything and everything organic including 
DNA. I've been thinking of experimenting with different kinds of relaxing 
procedures to see whether some procedure would be less harmful to DNA, but 
I haven't had the time yet.
    As for storing specimens for future possible analysis, I reiterate what 
Catherine said in a previous post. Keep them frozen (the colder the 
better). Pure ethanol (70% ethanol is not good enough) is also an option if 
there is no freezer available. Drying specimens quickly works wonderfully 
if the specimen will be processed within 1-2 months of being killed. I 
haven't noticed any effects of the way a butterfly was killed (chloroform 
is used routinely in DNA extractions, so I can't see why it should destroy 
DNA) on the quality of DNA.
    I envision future holotypes of new species having their DNA extracted 
from a leg or two, with the DNA info complementing the more visible info. 
With the way things are going now, who knows, maybe in 20 years we will be 
sequencing the entire genome of new species routinely! I think it is worth 
preserving tissue (two legs...) from new taxa now, so that in the future, 
we can get even more information about what these beautiful creatures 
actually are.
     My two (euro) cents.

Cheers,
Niklas

At 00:33 2001.07.20 -0400, Ron Gatrelle wrote:

>Chris J. Durden <drdn at mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> > I have heard that the latest, cutting edge research technique is to
> >         cut the wings off and dry in glassine envelopes
> >              put the body in absolute alcohol to preserve the DNA!
> >
>This brings up a good subject. My understanding is that water destroys the
>DNA and that a specific alcohol is to be used. Which?  Some may be
>preserving tissue for future analysis in vain if not using the correct
>medium.
>Ron
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

Niklas Wahlberg
Department of Zoology
Stockholm University
S-106 91 Stockholm
SWEDEN

Phone: +46 8 164047
Fax:   +46 8 167715

http://www.zoologi.su.se/research/ihp/


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Fri Jul 20 10:06:29 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:06:29 -0400
Subject: unwanted consumers: drying specimens in humid conditions
In-Reply-To: Mark Walker <MWalker@gensym.com>
        "RE: drying specimens in humid conditions" (Jul 19,  4:57pm)
References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DC0@hqmail.gensym.com>
Message-ID: <1010720111654.ZM22934@Gochfeld>

Ants need love and attention to, just like parasitoid wasps. 

Mike Gochfeld


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Fri Jul 20 10:09:02 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:09:02 -0400
Subject: Vagabond cousins
In-Reply-To: Mark Walker <MWalker@gensym.com>
        "RE: drying specimens in humid conditions" (Jul 19,  4:57pm)
References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DC0@hqmail.gensym.com>
Message-ID: <1010720111659.ZM22934@Gochfeld>

If I understood Mark's "seriously though" ending to his email, ants 
the status of vagabond cousins of lepidopterists.  That should stimulate 
some more discussion about phyllogeny and nomenclature and The Code. 

Mike Gochfeld


 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Jul 20 12:42:42 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:42:42 -0500
Subject: dna preservation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010720153404.00d5bee8@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010720113502.02ca2be0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Thanks. This is just the kind of information we collectors and curators need.
    I have started labelling specimens I have caught as "killed by pinching 
and air-dried" as a notice for future researchers that they were not 
subjected to cyanide, carbon tetrachloride, chloroform, ether etc. I would 
advise other collectors to do the same.
    How about past use of fumigants in the collection? How does exposure to 
fumes of carbon disulphide, naphthalene flakes, paradichlorobenzene, 
dichlorvos. pyrethrum powder, oil of cedarwood etc. affect the stability of 
DNA in dried specimens. This is really important for conservation of 
samples of extinct populations like the Xerces Blue.
    If you are working with lepidopteran DNA, please let us collectors and 
curators know how to handle the specimens for maximum benefit.
.............Chris Durden


At 03:34 PM 7/20/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>I've never heard that DNA is damaged by water.  It would be hard to imagine
>how it could survive in the cell if it was.  I routinely dissolve
>precipitated, purified  DNA in water and freeze it as a means of storage.
>However, as far as storing animal body parts goes to optimize DNA yield the
>best way is freezing preferably at approx.-70 degrees C, but -20 degrees C
>seems to work fine for the moths I'm working with.  If this is too
>difficult storing in absolute ethanol, preferably keeping them cold as
>well, seems to work almost as well for some organisms.  I've also
>successfully extracted DNA from pinned, dried specimens up to 10 yrs old.
>Other people I know have done the same from 80 yr old specimens.
>   I guess DNA is a remarkably stable molecule.  It needs to be otherwise
>things can go terribly wrong in organism development.   I've also just
>heard that chloroform killed specimens are almost impossible to extract
>from.



 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 20 18:24:52 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:24:52 -0400
Subject: Dried Specimens
Message-ID: <3B58AFB4.62F3@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi all,

Since we all seem to be on the topic of drying/dried specimens these
days, I was wondering how others out there keep the wings of their
already dried specimens from warping.  When my specimens come off the
pinning board their wings are perfectly straight, but invariably, after
some time, some of the specimens' wings start to warp.  I put hydrates
in with all of my specimens to adsorb (no that's not a typo, it really
is the correct term, as opposed to absorb) any moisture in the air, but
it doesn't seem to be working out as I has anticipated. Perhaps I'm
taking my specimens off the pinning board a bit to early so that they
are actually still in the process of drying when I place them in the
specimen drawers?  Could this have caused the warping?

Peace,
Xi Wang

 
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From gganweiler at sprint.ca  Fri Jul 20 20:05:14 2001
From: gganweiler at sprint.ca (Gary Anweiler  Edmonton Alberta Canada)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:05:14 -0600
Subject: preserving dna
References: <024e01c110d5$16fc5a80$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>, <5.0.2.1.2.20010720095027.00b48cf8@mail.it.su.se>
Message-ID: <%I367.864$Ma.22439@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>

I am a novice with the DNA work, but have been informed that relaxing
specimens is death to DNA, but that preservation in100% EtOH works well.

Something that has not been mentioned is that there are two kinds of DNA
being worked with these days - mitochondrial for work at the specific and
population level, and nuclear for higher level phylogentic work. It appears
nuclear DNA is not as stable at mitochondrial, and needs to be treated with
more care than the mitochondrial stuff.  For example, I don't think dried
material is of much use for nuclear DNA work.

Can anyone confirm, correct  or expand on this  ????

Gary

Niklas Wahlberg <Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se> wrote in message
news:5.0.2.1.2.20010720095027.00b48cf8 at mail.it.su.se...
> Hi all,
>      Here's my perspective on DNA samples from butterflies. I've been
> working with it almost daily for the past 4 years and I've extracted DNA
> from close to 1000 specimens. First of all, I never cut off the wings and
> put the body into the freezer, I extract the DNA from two legs (or one if
> it's a big one), leaving the rest of the specimen unharmed and maximally
> useful for taxonomic purposes (if necessary!). I store the extracted DNA
in
> the freezer (enough for 50-200 PCRs depending on the freshness of the
> specimen). As far as I'm aware, water itself has not harmed my extracts.
> Many of my extracts are from dried specimens that colleagues and friends
> have sent from around the world. These can be tricky and this is where
> water can be a problem, through humidity. Specimens stored even briefly in
> humid conditions are generally useless for DNA work (this obviously
applies
> to specimens relaxed in a humid box for spreading). The reason is most
> likely that bacteria and fungi (moulds) get into the butterfly and
> basically have a party, ie eat up anything and everything organic
including
> DNA. I've been thinking of experimenting with different kinds of relaxing
> procedures to see whether some procedure would be less harmful to DNA, but
> I haven't had the time yet.
>     As for storing specimens for future possible analysis, I reiterate
what
> Catherine said in a previous post. Keep them frozen (the colder the
> better). Pure ethanol (70% ethanol is not good enough) is also an option
if
> there is no freezer available. Drying specimens quickly works wonderfully
> if the specimen will be processed within 1-2 months of being killed. I
> haven't noticed any effects of the way a butterfly was killed (chloroform
> is used routinely in DNA extractions, so I can't see why it should destroy
> DNA) on the quality of DNA.
>     I envision future holotypes of new species having their DNA extracted
> from a leg or two, with the DNA info complementing the more visible info.
> With the way things are going now, who knows, maybe in 20 years we will be
> sequencing the entire genome of new species routinely! I think it is worth
> preserving tissue (two legs...) from new taxa now, so that in the future,
> we can get even more information about what these beautiful creatures
> actually are.
>      My two (euro) cents.
>
> Cheers,
> Niklas
>
> At 00:33 2001.07.20 -0400, Ron Gatrelle wrote:
>
> >Chris J. Durden <drdn at mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > I have heard that the latest, cutting edge research technique is to
> > >         cut the wings off and dry in glassine envelopes
> > >              put the body in absolute alcohol to preserve the DNA!
> > >
> >This brings up a good subject. My understanding is that water destroys
the
> >DNA and that a specific alcohol is to be used. Which?  Some may be
> >preserving tissue for future analysis in vain if not using the correct
> >medium.
> >Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
>
> Niklas Wahlberg
> Department of Zoology
> Stockholm University
> S-106 91 Stockholm
> SWEDEN
>
> Phone: +46 8 164047
> Fax:   +46 8 167715
>
> http://www.zoologi.su.se/research/ihp/
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>



 
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From dracolich5 at aol.com  Fri Jul 20 21:09:05 2001
From: dracolich5 at aol.com (Dracolich5)
Date: 21 Jul 2001 01:09:05 GMT
Subject: Any books solely on Saturniidae?
References: <3b56f2e9$0$12824$ac966d11@news.raex.com>
Message-ID: <20010720210905.00891.00000466@ng-cl1.aol.com>

  Well, it looks like I've misjudged the possibilities.  OK, there's only a
couple odd-and-end books that are a complete Saturniidae list, so how about
some suggestions on specific books for specific localles?

K. Szoke

 
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From s_korb at rambler.ru  Thu Jul 19 04:32:52 2001
From: s_korb at rambler.ru (Stanislav K. Korb)
Date: 19 Jul 2001 01:32:52 -0700
Subject: Rhopalocerology
Message-ID: <8b389c.0107190032.3ae70bcf@posting.google.com>

New journal on the butterflies was printed in Russia -
"Rhopalocerologica". Price for each number is US$ 1,75 including post.
Published everymonthly. Price for 1/2 of year is US$ 10,-, for year
US$ 19,-. Bank cheques or International Money Orders for pay are
available. Contact with me: s_korb at rambler.ru,
http://www.chaika-service.ru/rhopalocerologica.htm, post address: a\ya
2, Kniaghinino, N.Novgorod reg. 606340 Russia. Publications on
subjects of Rhopalocerological systematics, geography, faunistic etc.
would like to publish. Editor Stanislav K. Korb

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sat Jul 21 00:34:02 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:34:02 -0400
Subject: Dried Specimens
References: <3B58AFB4.62F3@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <002401c1119e$5ed4e4c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Dried Specimens


> Hi all,
>
> Since we all seem to be on the topic of drying/dried specimens these
> days, I was wondering how others out there keep the wings of their
> already dried specimens from warping.  When my specimens come off the
> pinning board their wings are perfectly straight, but invariably, after
> some time, some of the specimens' wings start to warp.  I put hydrates
> in with all of my specimens to adsorb (no that's not a typo, it really
> is the correct term, as opposed to absorb) any moisture in the air, but
> it doesn't seem to be working out as I has anticipated. Perhaps I'm
> taking my specimens off the pinning board a bit to early so that they
> are actually still in the process of drying when I place them in the
> specimen drawers?  Could this have caused the warping?
>
> Peace,
> Xi Wang

When I have the same problem I attribute it to taking specimens off the
setting board too soon. I know a couple guys who leave stuff on the boards
for two weeks. I'm just too impatient, I guess. A couple days and off they
come. I use no adsorb materials. and no pesticides in my Cal. Academy
drawers. I do use some pesticides in my small Red Wood boxes were I have a
lot of my small stuff.

We collectors all know the care needed with Styrofoam bottoms - what
pesticides do ya'll use in yours. I really like PDB but it can't be used
there as it will melt the Styrofoam. I do not like to handle no pest
strips. I occasionally spray Raid on the inside of the lid of a Red Wood
box and it seems to work.  I once sprayed Raid directly on specimens that
had book lice get into them and it dried without damaging the specimens.
Ron


 
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From Sumairp at lycos.com  Sat Jul 21 00:54:21 2001
From: Sumairp at lycos.com (Who?  Me?)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:54:21 GMT
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>, <4.3.2.7.1.20010719225423.00aa3e30@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <3b59064a.21365001@news.eaa.com.au>

Here in Queensland we have similar conditions to those you describe.
This is how I have treated Attacus atlas & Coscinocera hercules, the 2
largest moths. Both have very high wax content and there are 2 ways of
treating these specimens.


1. Remove the abdomen & soak in dry cleaning liquid overnight.
Dispose thoughtfully of the used fluid, replenish the container &
immerse the abdomen again. Repeat until there is no more
diiscolorisation of the fluid. 
The discolourisation is due to the wax being leeched from within.
(Same process for treating abdomens of Morpho sp.
Glue the abdomen back onto the thorax.)

2. This is a bit trickier: Sandwich the wings between 2 lengths of HD
setting foam. Place the 'assembly' into a container in such a way as
the specimens' abdomen hangs down, with the HD foam resting on the
edge of the container. Fill the container with dry cleaning fluid
until it reaches the abdomen and a little bit morre. Capillary action
will take care of the rest. Replace fluid as descibed in 1. above.
This method is used only when removing the abdomen is impractical, but
it depends n the species. The smaller the moth the more difficult the
task.

Works for me!

Cheers, 
Chris Hocking


 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Sat Jul 21 01:26:40 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:26:40 -0500
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
In-Reply-To: <3b59064a.21365001@news.eaa.com.au>
References: <005801c1108a$f4084b00$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20010719225423.00aa3e30@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010721002139.00aa32d0@b.pop.kiva.net>

Chris Hocking writes:

 >Remove the abdomen & soak in dry cleaning liquid overnight.
 >Dispose of the used fluid, replenish the container &
 >immerse the abdomen again. Repeat until there is no more
 >diiscolorisation of the fluid.

Thank you Chris.   Several people have mentioned doing this, only with 
different chemicals - acetone, naptha (a solvent like paint thinner).   The 
only part I'm unclear on is whether to remove and soak the abdomen before 
the specimen dries, or afterwards.   Some say if you do it before, it won't 
fit back on after the two parts dry separately.   Others apparently have no 
problem.   I guess I can try them both.......

Liz


-------------------------------------------------------------
Liz Day
Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous 
forest.
daylight at kiva.net
www.kiva.net/~daylight
-------------------------------------------------------------



 
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From Sumairp at lycos.com  Sat Jul 21 01:20:17 2001
From: Sumairp at lycos.com (Who?  Me?)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:20:17 GMT
Subject: Dried Specimens
References: <3B58AFB4.62F3@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3b590f1c.23624011@news.eaa.com.au>

On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:24:52 -0400, gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Since we all seem to be on the topic of drying/dried specimens these
>days, I was wondering how others out there keep the wings of their
>already dried specimens from warping.  When my specimens come off the
>pinning board their wings are perfectly straight, but invariably, after
>some time, some of the specimens' wings start to warp.  I put hydrates
>in with all of my specimens to adsorb (no that's not a typo, it really
>is the correct term, as opposed to absorb) any moisture in the air, but
>it doesn't seem to be working out as I has anticipated. Perhaps I'm
>taking my specimens off the pinning board a bit to early so that they
>are actually still in the process of drying when I place them in the
>specimen drawers?  Could this have caused the warping?
>
>Peace,
>Xi Wang

I've found 7 to 10 days @ a relative humidity of 55% is normally
sufficient to dry most specimens. Thereafter, maintaining that
humidity level is the key.

Large variations in humidity can cause the wings to curl and also
swing backwards to their natural position.

A little bit of clear glue applied to the underside of the wing/thorax
joint also helps maintain the set wings and is not apparent to the
casual observer.

Cheers,
Chris Hocking

 
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From lepidopterists at home.com  Sat Jul 21 01:52:00 2001
From: lepidopterists at home.com (lepidopterists)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:52:00 GMT
Subject: Dried Specimens
Message-ID: <4M867.2401$zb.48798@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>

   Xi, your concern that you may be removing your pinned specimens to early
is very real. I generally leave my smaller bodied insects such as blues,
coppers, whites, admirals medium sized fritillaries etc on the board for
about a week and a half, larger bodied insects such as certain types of
swallowtails and large bodied moths sometimes for as long as one month. This
may be over doing it but I have never experienced the problem you are
having. As well you don't mention what type of climate you live in; a
climate of high humidity will surely add to the time required to dry insects
sufficiently enough to safely remove them from the spreading board. Remember
also that insects left on the spreading board for extended periods of time
become more susceptible to critters such as dermisted beetles.

Happy collecting,
Robert Vandermoor

From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Dried Specimens
Date: Friday, July 20, 2001 3:24 PM

Hi all,

Since we all seem to be on the topic of drying/dried specimens these
days, I was wondering how others out there keep the wings of their
already dried specimens from warping.  When my specimens come off the
pinning board their wings are perfectly straight, but invariably, after
some time, some of the specimens' wings start to warp.  I put hydrates
in with all of my specimens to adsorb (no that's not a typo, it really
is the correct term, as opposed to absorb) any moisture in the air, but
it doesn't seem to be working out as I has anticipated. Perhaps I'm
taking my specimens off the pinning board a bit to early so that they
are actually still in the process of drying when I place them in the
specimen drawers?  Could this have caused the warping?

Peace,
Xi Wang



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sat Jul 21 02:50:41 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 02:50:41 -0400
Subject: Satyrium liparops floridensis
Message-ID: <004f01c111b1$75d288e0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Now that all of our subscribes and instutions on our mailing list have
received the last issue of The Taxonomic Report describing Satyrium
liparops floridensis - we have posted the photos of the floridensis types
and the neotype of liparops in the TILS photos library.
http://tils-ttr.org.
Ron


 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 21 01:50:29 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 01:50:29 -0400
Subject: Dried Specimens
References: <4M867.2401$zb.48798@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B591825.3AFF@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

Thx all for those insightful comments, I will be sure to keep that in
mind from now on.  I think my main problem is lack of space; otherwise
I'd have no problems keeping the specimens on the pinning boards for a
couple of weeks.

Peace,
Xi

lepidopterists wrote:
> 
>    Xi, your concern that you may be removing your pinned specimens to early
> is very real. I generally leave my smaller bodied insects such as blues,
> coppers, whites, admirals medium sized fritillaries etc on the board for
> about a week and a half, larger bodied insects such as certain types of
> swallowtails and large bodied moths sometimes for as long as one month. This
> may be over doing it but I have never experienced the problem you are
> having. As well you don't mention what type of climate you live in; a
> climate of high humidity will surely add to the time required to dry insects
> sufficiently enough to safely remove them from the spreading board. Remember
> also that insects left on the spreading board for extended periods of time
> become more susceptible to critters such as dermisted beetles.
> 
> Happy collecting,
> Robert Vandermoor

 
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From rehnx at rsaf.org  Sat Jul 21 04:26:43 2001
From: rehnx at rsaf.org (John Rehn)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 08:26:43 GMT
Subject: Recognize this caterpillar? (with link to pic)
Message-ID: <3B593CC4.C6AA5781@rsaf.org>

Found 2 of these in middle Sweden.
Quite strange I think.

http://w1.879.telia.com/~u87908879/larv2.JPG

Id ? Please

John Rehn

 
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From kbliss0568 at aol.com  Sat Jul 21 10:19:13 2001
From: kbliss0568 at aol.com (KBliss0568)
Date: 21 Jul 2001 14:19:13 GMT
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <20010721101913.06791.00000488@ng-fy1.aol.com>

Hi Liz.

In my area of New Jersey it has been very, very humid lately.  Previously
dried specimens were beginning to relax right in my Cornell drawers.   
I removed the small boxes of desiccant from my drawers and replaced
them with  3" x 6" packs of silica gel.  So far, so good.  I usually keep my
moths on the boards for *at least* two weeks, so I don't think insufficient dry
time was the cause.  Anyway, the bugs are now fine, so I'm now fine, too.

As for getting them to dry in the first place, I'm fortunate to have a
very poorly ventilated attic, and I'm keeping it that way.  It's become
a huge, walk-in drying oven, and it works great.  I put together a
shelving unit and place everything on it as high as possible (the higher
up, the hotter it is).  Then, to keep ants away, I spray ant spray 
around the bottom of the unit.  Perfect!  So far, not a problem at all.

Downstairs, the ants have taken ten years off my life due to the trauma
I've suffered through finding only the remains of once beautiful moths
on my boards.  I spent last summer tracking the b*stards down,
through the yard, and to their nest.  I exacted swift, harsh revenge
on the bandits with ruthless ferocity. (Imagine my neighbors watching
me, after midnight, in my dark yard, wearing a head light and on my
knees, crawling around, cursing out loud at the ground.  No wonder they
seem so shy lately).  Needless to say, no Formicidae have dared
tread upon my domain since.  

My plane leaves in a few hours for a very early beginning to the LepSoc 
conference in Corvallis, OR, so I better get a move on.  Good luck!

Ken Bliss


 
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Sat Jul 21 11:08:23 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:08:23 -0400
Subject: Dried Specimens
References: <3B58AFB4.62F3@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <002001c111f6$fee48260$6a890a3f@1swch01>

Hi, Xi!

I live in the humid South. I could leave my specimens on the boards for
months - and within a few days of taking them off the wings are droopy. I
suggest you do as I do; enjoy the warm weather and let the wings sag.

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 6:24 PM
Subject: Dried Specimens


> Hi all,
>
> Since we all seem to be on the topic of drying/dried specimens these
> days, I was wondering how others out there keep the wings of their
> already dried specimens from warping.  When my specimens come off the
> pinning board their wings are perfectly straight, but invariably, after
> some time, some of the specimens' wings start to warp.  I put hydrates
> in with all of my specimens to adsorb (no that's not a typo, it really
> is the correct term, as opposed to absorb) any moisture in the air, but
> it doesn't seem to be working out as I has anticipated. Perhaps I'm
> taking my specimens off the pinning board a bit to early so that they
> are actually still in the process of drying when I place them in the
> specimen drawers?  Could this have caused the warping?
>
> Peace,
> Xi Wang
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Sat Jul 21 13:53:28 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:53:28 -0400
Subject: Dried Specimens
References: <3B58AFB4.62F3@mb.sympatico.ca> <002001c111f6$fee48260$6a890a3f@1swch01>
Message-ID: <007701c1120e$0d0ecb40$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "1_iron" <1_iron at msn.com>
Subject: Re: Dried Specimens


> Hi, Xi!
>
> I live in the humid South. I could leave my specimens on the boards for
> months - and within a few days of taking them off the wings are droopy. I
> suggest you do as I do; enjoy the warm weather and let the wings sag.
>
> Jim Taylor

This reminds me of another angle. All the spreading boards I use are
slanted up. About 20 years ago a friend gave me some really nice home made
spreading boards made of Redwood, deep narrow groove, cork pin area - just
the right size and structure for little skippers and lycinids which is
mostly what I do. One problem, the surface was flat. Everything drooped
almost as soon as I took them off.  The bottom line is that the ones I
spread on the beveled Bio Quip boards end up flat. Perhaps the more humid
the area the greater angle needed on the spreading board. Someone could
probably come up with an equation :-)

On storage.  I have taken two drawers out of one of my cabinets and set
specimens in there to dry. I have two types of cabinets. Some metal ones I
got used from the Allyn Museum when they went to an automated system years
ago, and the double row (12 on a side) Bio Quip Cal. Acdmy.  Both of these
types seal super tight and the commercial drawers are extremely tight too.
I never have to use pest deterrents in these as nothing can (has gotten)
get in. I do have to watch may specimens in two home made, open front,
cabinets that hold 60 Redwood schmitt boxes.
Ron


 
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From Sumairp at lycos.com  Sat Jul 21 17:47:04 2001
From: Sumairp at lycos.com (Who?  Me?)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 21:47:04 GMT
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>, <20010721101913.06791.00000488@ng-fy1.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3b59f68e.4598534@news.eaa.com.au>

On 21 Jul 2001 14:19:13 GMT, kbliss0568 at aol.com (KBliss0568) wrote:

>up, the hotter it is).  Then, to keep ants away, I spray ant spray 
>around the bottom of the unit.  Perfect!  So far, not a problem at all.
>
>Downstairs, the ants have taken ten years off my life due to the trauma
>I've suffered through finding only the remains of once beautiful moths
>on my boards.

I've suffered this problem too. The only solution that I have found is
to use 1 pint motor oil bottles (plastic), cut in half. Place legs of
table/cabinet in each one and add 1/2 inch - 1 inch of motor oil.
The smell goes away after a month; the oil won't evaporate & NO ant
will try & cross the moat! 

Sorry about your Carpet. LOL

Cheers,
Chris


 
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From Sumairp at lycos.com  Sat Jul 21 17:37:32 2001
From: Sumairp at lycos.com (Who?  Me?)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 21:37:32 GMT
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <3b59064a.21365001@news.eaa.com.au>, <4.3.2.7.1.20010721002139.00aa32d0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <3b59f37e.3814065@news.eaa.com.au>

On 20 Jul 2001 22:33:43 -0700, beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day) wrote:

>Thank you Chris.   Several people have mentioned doing this, only with 
>different chemicals - acetone, naptha (a solvent like paint thinner).   The 
>only part I'm unclear on is whether to remove and soak the abdomen before 
>the specimen dries, or afterwards.   Some say if you do it before, it won't 
>fit back on after the two parts dry separately.   Others apparently have no 
>problem.   I guess I can try them both.......
>
>Liz

Using Acetone (nail polish remover) works fine. Depending on species,
there MAY be some shrinkage, but I have never found it a real problem.

While the abdomen is removed is a good time to relax & set the
specimen. When setting, insert a pin horizontally into the thorax from
the rear and use it to align the specimen in the setting board
channel. When set & dried, just glue the dried abdomen back in place &
it's done. Try it on a couple of different species to see what
happens. There are lots of things to learn by experimenting this way.

If any of the specimens have fern-like antennae,be sure to use a fine,
dry paint brush to separate each strand so they look nice & neat.
Nothing worse than knotted antennae.

Cheers,
Chris 

 
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From jrg13 at psu.edu  Sat Jul 21 22:59:47 2001
From: jrg13 at psu.edu (John Grehan)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:59:47 -0400
Subject: Mid-Winter entomological newsletter from New Zealand
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010721225325.00c29960@127.0.0.1>

From: "Brian Patrick" <bpatrick at xtra.co.nz>

Hi all,
In Otago we have had the most severe winter for years with hoar frosts, 
snow settling for days on end and much rain. A miserable time for a 
moth-hunter! Although it has been a good time for all of us to catch-up 
with reports and insect processing.
NEW TRACK FOR ENTOMOLOGISTS
Early November will see the opening of a new three day walking track on the 
Hump Ridge in southeastern Fiordland. Developed and owned by the local 
Tuatapere community it has cost close to $3 million and consists of two new 
hut complexes, boardwalks and journeys over three impressive historical 
viaducts.
The Hump Ridge (1067m) is important as a type locality for many beetles and 
moths collected by Alfred Philpott in the 1910s, so this track system will 
give not only good walking access to this alpine area but comfortable 
accommodation at high altitude and extensive views over Waitutu Forest. The 
track traverses forest, sand dune, shrubland, low alpine, historic features 
including viaducts and beach in its 55 kilometres.
Visit the website www.humpridgetrack.co.nz for information/ bookings 
on-line and a beautiful landscape.
ENTOMOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF NEW ZEALAND ANNUAL CONFERENCE
The annual conference was held at Unitec, Auckland in early July and 
attracted about 90 entomologists from all across the country. This was a 
special conference being the 50th annual conference for the society - a 
real milestone. Three of the six surviving foundation members of the 
society were there - Keith Wise, Roy Harrison and Graeme Ramsay. Two of 
whom have published on NZ Lepidoptera. Sadly a fourth, Bruce Given, died in 
Blenheim soon after the conference.
A field trip to Matuku Reserve in the Waitakere Ranges proved very 
interesting with an impressive variety of vegetation types from kauri 
forest through shrublands to cliff-top grasslands to swampland.
Although insects themselves were scarce, their characteristic larval damage 
was evident everywhere.
This was followed by two and a half days of papers, posters, a wine and 
cheese and an annual dinner. The papers were generally of a higher than 
normal standard and this was reflected in good attendance figures 
maintained to the end.
Amongst several talks on moths and butterflies, George Gibbs examined the 
plight of the beech forest ringlet Dodonidia helmsii. His data show that 
the species has disappeared from many sites it was formerly known from, but 
still survives at mainly higher altitude sites where it presumably has less 
pressure from introduced paper wasps.
Overall, Auckland Branch organised a very friendly, informative and highly 
entertaining conference that will be remembered for a long time. Who will 
forget Robert's poem to open the conference and his acting ability in 
reenacting the finding of a rare NZ moth, performed at the annual dinner? A 
masterpiece.
It's also interesting that two moth hunters Robert Hoare and myself are 
presidents of the Auckland and national society respectively.
AUTUMN - WINTER INSECTS
Wet nights in early May brought out two hepialids in Dunedin in abundance; 
the Otago ghost moth Aoraia rufivena (wingspan 6-7cm) and the smaller 
winter ghost moth Cladoxycanus minos.
"little log cabin" cases (Psychidae) collected from Matuku (mentioned 
above) have hatched producing a male and two females. Robert, what is this 
species? Apterous females cling to the outside of the elegant case.
TROPICAL BUTTERFLY HOUSE
In early April I visited the Thames Tropical Butterfly House, following the 
AGM of the Entomological Society of NZ. Roger Gass, from Switzerland, 
kindly showed me around his two year old complex. He has 400 adult 
butterflies at any one time flying within a 6m high, 28 x 12m room with 
wonderful tropical vegetation, waterfall and pond. Heated to 28 degrees C, 
it is quite impressive, with Asian and South American butterflies imported 
as adults or pupae.
NEW RECORDS
Dr Robert Hoare of Landcare Research, Auckland, has prepared an annotated 
list of about 25? newly discovered, exotic moths and butterflies in New 
Zealand. His publication, which will hopefully contain coloured images of 
these new additions to our fauna, is in the refereeing stage. Most of these 
have appeared, mainly in the Auckland area over the past decade. Three new 
families of Lepidoptera that do not exist in NZ naturally are reported.
TRAVELS
In early April I accepted the invitation of Albert Rebergen of DoC in 
Masterton to visit a natural coastal site east of Wellington that he had 
discovered. The site, Lake Onoke Spit, has an impressive cushionfield of 
Pimelea that he thought might harbor Notoreas geometrids.
He was spectacularly correct! The brightly coloured moths were so numerous 
that they could be seen long before he stopped the vehicle along the gravel 
track. This species, one of many un-named in the genus, is distributed from 
the lower west Wellington coast to just north of Cape Palliser to the east 
of Lake Onoke.
This is one of the best populations found to date.
Red katipo spiders were also found in the dunes under driftwood, with sand 
tussock, spinifex and pingao nearby.
Between Thames and Lake Onoke, I explored several dune systems on the 
Taranaki (Bell Block), and Manawatu (Himatangi, Foxton and Tangimoana) 
coasts. It amazes me how much more natural are the dunes of the North 
Island compared to the sparser populated South Island.
Mid-May saw me lead the Otago Botanical Society on a field trip to 
"Witherow" Island in the Clutha River upstream from the Roxburgh Dam, and 
newly protected Birch Island in the Clutha River below Beaumont.
While the former is dry grassland/ shrubland, and the latter is moist beech 
forest, both have significant biological value as refugia from the ravages 
of introduced mammals. A full report has been published in the latest NZ 
Botanical Society Newsletter, reprinted and shortened from the Otago 
Botanical Society Newsletter.
Late May saw me in Napier for a day conference. I took time to explore two 
dune systems south of the city; Waimarama and Ocean Beach. Both are worth a 
look with an array of native plants on an attractive coastline. The latter 
system is extensive.
Between mid June and July I have been keeping warm, but two excursions to 
the south and west have been made. A weekend in Riverton proved interesting 
with an exploration of areas that Alfred Philpott collected in - the 
Riverton dunes.
Five days at Te Anau for a management conference gave time to explore 
Milford and Homer Tunnel in hoar frost conditions. Impressive landscape of 
ice, rock and rich flora. I grabbed some leaf mines from Hoheria below the 
tunnel. Also got an adult Declana griseata at light in mid-July! Larval 
host mistletoe was found nearby on beech.
Let me know what you have been doing and I'll pass your news onto others.
regards
Brian
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Sun Jul 22 02:04:41 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 07:04:41 +0100
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions
References: <4.3.2.7.1.20010719135214.00aaabf0@b.pop.kiva.net>, <20010721101913.06791.00000488@ng-fy1.aol.com> <3b59f68e.4598534@news.eaa.com.au>
Message-ID: <3B5A6CF9.A517C7D6@anu.ie>

Who? Me? wrote:
> 
> On 21 Jul 2001 14:19:13 GMT, kbliss0568 at aol.com (KBliss0568) wrote:
> 
> >up, the hotter it is).  Then, to keep ants away, I spray ant spray
> >around the bottom of the unit.  Perfect!  So far, not a problem at all.
> >
> >Downstairs, the ants have taken ten years off my life due to the trauma
> >I've suffered through finding only the remains of once beautiful moths
> >on my boards.
> 
> I've suffered this problem too. The only solution that I have found is
> to use 1 pint motor oil bottles (plastic), cut in half. Place legs of
> table/cabinet in each one and add 1/2 inch - 1 inch of motor oil.
> The smell goes away after a month; the oil won't evaporate & NO ant
> will try & cross the moat!
> 
> Sorry about your Carpet. LOL
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
A more elegant solution is to use tunafish cans, which you can paint
nicely. I've had good success with vegetable oil, which is still
effective when it's gummy and old. You do need to check that drifting
detritus does not build a bridge. 
I spent some years doing battle with Technomyrmex albipes, the
white-footed ant, and eventually we learned to live in harmony. When I
had the wet wood in the roof replaced, alas, my ants went away and the
roaches moved back in. Little had I known how lucky I was. 
The worst of my losses to the ants was a fine skeleton of a baby green
anole (found in a disused salad bowl), which I had mounted in a nice
frame and displayed proudly on a dollhouse wall. Had I but known, I
would have sealed it in plexiglas. 
Florida is bug country, humid and warm, and unless you're willing to be
eternally vigilant and live in a state of armed alert, it is easier not
to keep a collection. 

Last I looked, Palm Beach County is listed as having no butterflies at
all, in the official list whose name I forget ... Opler's work. Seems
you need a voucher collection, and I tried to persuade folks to get one
started, but failed. 
Mark Jeter, at the Mounts Botanical Garden, was willing to house one,
but we never found a collector who wanted to set one up or curate it. So
... if anyone wants to play with that, say Anne sent you. 
Cheers
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Sun Jul 22 02:11:28 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 07:11:28 +0100
Subject: Red Admiral and kin
Message-ID: <3B5A6E90.F76FF90F@anu.ie>

I am happy to report that, as I took my new camera up the back on
Thursday, July 19, I was greeted by a Red Admiral, Vanessa atalanta,
somewhat weatherbeaten, but proudly defending a fine patch of nettles by
the old compost heap. He flew up and perched upon my flowering bosom,
where I could have photographed him, were I quicker-witted, for the
Nikon Coolpix 995 has a lens section that will spin to allow
self-portraiture, even inverting your picture so that you are as upright
as usual. The viewing screen stays where you can see it, of course. 
Then he flew back to defend his turf ... in vain, for it had obviously
been visited, and thoroughly, on or around June 14 and after, by a
Peacock, Inachis io. Masses of larvae, the youngest in the second
instar; the eldest in the fourth instar and already moving off on their
own. All in brown gum boots and starry black mackintoshes. The sight of
fifty or so larvae piled on one hairy old nettle leaf is scary. 
There was also a Gatekeeper, Pyronia tithonus, who was nectaring on a
large thistle in full sun, but moved hastily to bramble (in the shade)
when he saw that I had my camera, as he had read the book and knew that
was supposed to be his favorite tipple. My photographs of him are
undistinguished, but the caterpillars came out nicely. 

The pine martens send their greetings. Sophy is well, though not as
lovely and young as once she was, and the twins are handsome and lively.
They are, as I write, galloping about over the kitchen. 

Happy days
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Sun Jul 22 03:23:55 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 03:23:55 -0400
Subject: Recognize this caterpillar? (with link to pic)
References: <3B593CC4.C6AA5781@rsaf.org>
Message-ID: <3B5A7F8B.6853@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi John,

Looks like a Cerura vinula (Puss moth) to me....in the family
Notodontidae.  You might want to be careful with these critters,
apparently they can squirt formic acid from a gland in the throat!!

Peace,
Xi


John Rehn wrote:
> 
> Found 2 of these in middle Sweden.
> Quite strange I think.
> 
> http://w1.879.telia.com/~u87908879/larv2.JPG
> 
> Id ? Please
> 
> John Rehn

 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Sun Jul 22 10:25:58 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:25:58 +0100
Subject: gatekeeper?
Message-ID: <3B5AE276.1EDCA832@anu.ie>

LBJ, actually. I am told that there's no way ... check the range maps,
Anne, is my advice to me.
Meadow Brown, maybe. Small Heath, maybe. LBJ, certainly. 
Oh well
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

 
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From rehnx at rsaf.org  Sun Jul 22 10:53:25 2001
From: rehnx at rsaf.org (John Rehn)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 14:53:25 GMT
Subject: Recognize this caterpillar? (with link to pic)
References: <3B593CC4.C6AA5781@rsaf.org>, <3B5A7F8B.6853@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3B5AE8F0.2B7B637E@rsaf.org>



gwang wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> Looks like a Cerura vinula (Puss moth) to me....in the family
> Notodontidae.  You might want to be careful with these critters,
> apparently they can squirt formic acid from a gland in the throat!!
> 
> Peace,
> Xi

Thanks, 
The acid squirting is interesting, I'll will check that
if I find them again.

-- 
Remove "x" from email address to answer

 
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From Monarchrst at aol.com  Sun Jul 22 11:17:41 2001
From: Monarchrst at aol.com (Monarchrst at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:17:41 EDT
Subject: SW Arizona observation
Message-ID: <ac.181507cb.288c4895@aol.com>

Just a brief note to say that last night that I took my first ever Errinyis 
obscura here.  This small sphinx moth is sexually dimorphic and my specimen 
was a perfect male.  It is found mostly along the Mexican border, but not so 
often this far West.

I also saw my first summer Painted Lady yesterday, after a two month break 
from the vast numbers of the spring.

Ian Watkinson, Yuma, Arizona.


 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Sun Jul 22 14:34:18 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:34:18 -0500
Subject: Recognize caterpillar? and interesting larval camouflage
In-Reply-To: <3B5A7F8B.6853@mb.sympatico.ca>
References: <3B593CC4.C6AA5781@rsaf.org>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010722132633.00a98ed0@b.pop.kiva.net>

Looks like a puss moth.   They have two long tails coming out the 
back.  Only I thought the acid (or whatever) was squirted out the 
tails.  ?  They whip the tails around if disturbed.

I am rearing a few tiny ones here.  They are dark brown and maybe 5 mm 
long.  They sit with their head on the edge of the (cherry) leaf and their 
tails held together out behind them perfectly straight, pointing in toward 
the leaf vein.   This looks remarkably like a rip in the leaf - the dark 
area created by the caterpillar looks like the shadow that would be the 
empty space behind the rip.   Even the hole they eat at the leaf edge looks 
like part of the rip.  I've never seen a caterpillar that mimicked a 
rip.  It's cool.  Sometimes they curl like a "J" instead;  I assume that is 
supposed to be a bird doodle.

Liz


 
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From jhimmel at connix.com  Sun Jul 22 15:22:16 2001
From: jhimmel at connix.com (JH)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:22:16 -0400
Subject: REAL VIRUS ALERT!!!!
Message-ID: <00b401c112e3$c49ec460$bb63f6cd@pjhimmel>

    
    
    Subject: Fw: REAL VIRUS ALERT!!!!
    
    
    
    
    Subject: REAL VIRUS ALERT!!!!
    
    
    I just discovered the "Sircam virus" in my computer.  If you receive an attachment from me DO NOT OPEN IT!  This is a nasty one.  It goes through your address book, attaches a random file from your computer and sends it out.  It can potentially wipe out your hard drive!  It also has the ability to change the greeting, so be careful.  Mine came to me from the Mission Chamber of Commerce under the subject of "I send you this file in order to have your advice".  Because this comes from someone who has your address, you may be less cautious in opening the attachment.  That's how it got me.
     
    
     
    Go to this site for more info.
     
    http://securityportal.com/research/virus/profiles/w32sircam.html
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    John Himmelman
    Killingworth, CT USA
    jhimmel at connix.com
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
    Visit my websites at:
    http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
    www.ctamphibians.com
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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From hankb at theriver.com  Sun Jul 22 16:35:53 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:35:53 -0700
Subject: Virus - Warning to those involved with Mission Festival
Message-ID: <3B5B3929.BBBC647@theriver.com>

It has been comfirmed by John Himmelman that there is a virus being sent
out.  See below.
One of the computers affected is Shawn Patterson's.  Shawn is the chief
organizer for the Mission Butterfly Festival - so all presenters and
participants who are expecting to hear from her should NOT OPEN ANY
FILES FROM HER UNLESS SHE SPECIFICALLY ASKS YOU TO DO SO and it makes
sense!!!
I have already received about 6 copies of these from Shawn's computer.
The subject line says "VOL DUES".  The files include a text file and
another type of file - and there was no message in the e-mail.  I have
tried e-mailing her but have gotten no response.
If anyone has Shawn's phone number out there please try to contact her. 
There is probably a lot of Festival Stuff on her computer that she needs
to save.
I know that some of the mail lists have a prohibition agains virus
alerts - but since this one directly affects leps folks I am using my
judgement to warn the folks on these lists.
This is John's message:

Subject: 
        Re: REAL VIRUS ALERT!!!!
   Date: 
        Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:22:16 -0400
   From: 
        "JH" <jhimmel at CONNIX.COM>
     To: 
        (SNIP)

       

       Subject: REAL VIRUS ALERT!!!!

       I just discovered the "Sircam virus" in my computer.  If you
receive an attachment
       from me DO NOT OPEN IT!  This is a nasty one.  It goes through
your address book,
       attaches a random file from your computer and sends it out.  It
can potentially wipe
       out your hard drive!  It also has the ability to change the
greeting, so be careful.  Mine
       came to me from the Mission Chamber of Commerce under the subject
of "I send you
       this file in order to have your advice".  Because this comes from
someone who has
       your address, you may be less cautious in opening the
attachment.  That's how it got
       me.
        
        
        
       Go to this site for more info.
        
       http://securityportal.com/research/virus/profiles/w32sircam.html
       :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
       John Himmelman
       Killingworth, CT USA
       jhimmel at connix.com
       :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
      
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
       Visit my websites at:
       http://booksandnature.homestead.com/booksandnature.html
       www.ctamphibians.com
      
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>




-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
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From colina.jacobs at benacre.fsnet.co.uk  Sun Jul 22 16:20:19 2001
From: colina.jacobs at benacre.fsnet.co.uk (Colin Jacobs)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 21:20:19 +0100
Subject: Recognize this caterpillar? (with link to pic)
References: <3B593CC4.C6AA5781@rsaf.org>
Message-ID: <9jfcke$qeh$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>

Cerura vinula  (Puss Moth)
A Widespread Moth of  Europe  up to 2,500m
The Lavae feed on Salix sp & Populus sp

CJ
"John Rehn" <rehnx at rsaf.org> wrote in message
news:3B593CC4.C6AA5781 at rsaf.org...
> Found 2 of these in middle Sweden.
> Quite strange I think.
>
> http://w1.879.telia.com/~u87908879/larv2.JPG
>
> Id ? Please
>
> John Rehn



 
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From littlemalone at blomand.net  Sun Jul 22 19:30:16 2001
From: littlemalone at blomand.net (ClydetheGuide)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 16:30:16 -0700
Subject: 2001 NABA Butterfly Count -- Viola,TN
Message-ID: <3B5B6208.709@blomand.net>

Benton Basham led the first Viola, TN Butterfly Count July 14, 2001.  We
counted a total of 56 species, totalling 634 individuals. 

Pipevine Swallowtail			37
Zebra Swallowtail			 1
Black Swallowtail			 3	
Spicebush Swallowtail			 5
E. Tiger Swallowtail			14
Cabbage White				20
Checkered White				 3
Clouded Sulphur				14
Orange Sulphur				59
Little Yellow				 3
Sleepy Orange				 3
Cloudless Sulphur			 1
Red-banded Hairstreak			 1
Banded Hairstreak			 1
Hickory Hairstreak			 1
Gray Hairstreak				 6
Summer Azure				 4
E. Tailed-Blue				71
Variegated Fritillary			27
Diana Fritillary			12
Gr. Spangled Fritillary			11
Silvery Checkerspot 			10
Pearl Crescent				22
Question Mark				13
American Lady				12
Painted Lady				 6
Red Admiral				13
American Snout				24
Common Buckeye				17
Red-spotted Admiral		         1
Viceroy					15
Goatweed Leafwing			 2
Hackberry Emperor		         1
Tawny Emperor				 1
Commmon Wood Nymph			10
Carolina Satyr				26
Little Wood Satyr                        1
Monarch					 1
Silver-spotted Skipper			51
Southern Cloudywing 		        13
Horace's Duskywing 		         4
Zarucco Duskywing 		         5
Commmon Checkered Skipper		 2
Common Sootywing 		         2
Hayhursts's Scallopwing 		 1
Least Skipper				 3
Fiery Skipper				11
Sachem 			                61
Crossline Skipper			 1
Tawny-edged Skipper			 1
Northern Broken-dash 		         1
Little Glassywing 		         1
Delaware Skipper			 2
Hobomok Skipper				 1
Dusted Skipper				 1
Lace-winged Roadside Skipper		 1

Crystal Malone

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Sun Jul 22 17:41:32 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:41:32 -0400
Subject: Need cat. ID
Message-ID: <3B5B488C.5B44@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone might know what this caterpillar is.  Roughly
2.3 cm in lenght, covered with tufts of hair, 1 pair on each segment of
the body.  The tufts are black, as is the head, near the head and anal
regions, but becomes a light yellowish colour as one moves towards the
centre.  There is a pair of orange dots on the second last segment, and
a continuous orange band running along the sides of the body from the
last thoracic segment to the anal segment.  The spiracles are white. 
Found on a plant which doesn't appear to be in the milkweed family, but
does nevertheless contain a white milky sap similar to that found in
plants of the Asclepiadaceae family.  

TIA,
Xi Wang
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. 
Approximately 49 50'N 97 10'W

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Sun Jul 22 17:22:32 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:22:32 -0400
Subject: Recognize caterpillar? and interesting larval camouflage
References: <3B5A7F8B.6853@mb.sympatico.ca>, <4.3.2.7.1.20010722132633.00a98ed0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <3B5B4418.6166@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi Liz,

Actually, I think if you look carefully, it's possible to see the gland
from which the acid is ejected.  It's that slightly darkened structure
in the pink area right below the mandibles.

Peace,
Xi Wang

Liz Day wrote:
> 
> Looks like a puss moth.   They have two long tails coming out the
> back.  Only I thought the acid (or whatever) was squirted out the
> tails.  ?  They whip the tails around if disturbed.
> 
> I am rearing a few tiny ones here.  They are dark brown and maybe 5 mm
> long.  They sit with their head on the edge of the (cherry) leaf and their
> tails held together out behind them perfectly straight, pointing in toward
> the leaf vein.   This looks remarkably like a rip in the leaf - the dark
> area created by the caterpillar looks like the shadow that would be the
> empty space behind the rip.   Even the hole they eat at the leaf edge looks
> like part of the rip.  I've never seen a caterpillar that mimicked a
> rip.  It's cool.  Sometimes they curl like a "J" instead;  I assume that is
> supposed to be a bird doodle.
> 
> Liz

 
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From idleweed at tusco.net  Sun Jul 22 20:03:18 2001
From: idleweed at tusco.net (David Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 00:03:18 GMT
Subject: Recognize caterpillar? and interesting larval camouflage
References: <3B5A7F8B.6853@mb.sympatico.ca>, <4.3.2.7.1.20010722132633.00a98ed0@b.pop.kiva.net>, <3B5B4418.6166@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <aRJ67.1629$Ck.42578@ord-read.news.verio.net>

Hello,
   puss caterpilars (at least in North America) have stinging hairs hidden
beneath the soft surface hairs. I don't think they squirt anything. They are
in the genus Lagoa.
       David Smith
"gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3B5B4418.6166 at mb.sympatico.ca...
> Hi Liz,
>
> Actually, I think if you look carefully, it's possible to see the gland
> from which the acid is ejected.  It's that slightly darkened structure
> in the pink area right below the mandibles.
>
> Peace,
> Xi Wang
>
> Liz Day wrote:
> >
> > Looks like a puss moth.   They have two long tails coming out the




 
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From cjyoung at postoffice.utas.edu.au  Sun Jul 22 22:35:11 2001
From: cjyoung at postoffice.utas.edu.au (Catherine Young)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:35:11 +1000
Subject: preserving dna
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010723123511.00d61cf0@postoffice.utas.edu.au>

>X-Authentication-Warning: dex.pathlink.com: news set sender to
newsgate at newsguy.com using -f
>To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:05:14 -0600
>From: "Gary Anweiler  Edmonton Alberta Canada" <gganweiler at sprint.ca>
>Organization: Sprint Canada Inc.
>Sender: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu
>Subject: Re: preserving dna
>Reply-To: gganweiler at sprint.ca
>X-Sender: newsgate at newsguy.com
>

You can in fact use both mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and nuclear DNA for
analyses at most taxonomic levels, it really depends on the particular gene
fragment you're using and its relative evolutionary rate etc.  I've
succesfully and quite easily amplified nuclear gene fragments from DNA
extracted from dried specimens.  I haven't heard  that it makes  much
difference whether the gene fragments are nuclear or mitochondrial. Its
interesting to read what Niklas said about chloroform killed specimens, I
must admit that I only heard this information from one source and therefore
may be rather spurious

Cathy Young
University of Tasmania








>I am a novice with the DNA work, but have been informed that relaxing
>specimens is death to DNA, but that preservation in100% EtOH works well.
>
>Something that has not been mentioned is that there are two kinds of DNA
>being worked with these days - mitochondrial for work at the specific and
>population level, and nuclear for higher level phylogentic work. It appears
>nuclear DNA is not as stable at mitochondrial, and needs to be treated with
>more care than the mitochondrial stuff.  For example, I don't think dried
>material is of much use for nuclear DNA work.
>
>Can anyone confirm, correct  or expand on this  ????
>
>Gary
>
>Niklas Wahlberg <Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se> wrote in message
>news:5.0.2.1.2.20010720095027.00b48cf8 at mail.it.su.se...
>> Hi all,
>>      Here's my perspective on DNA samples from butterflies. I've been
>> working with it almost daily for the past 4 years and I've extracted DNA
>> from close to 1000 specimens. First of all, I never cut off the wings and
>> put the body into the freezer, I extract the DNA from two legs (or one if
>> it's a big one), leaving the rest of the specimen unharmed and maximally
>> useful for taxonomic purposes (if necessary!). I store the extracted DNA
>in
>> the freezer (enough for 50-200 PCRs depending on the freshness of the
>> specimen). As far as I'm aware, water itself has not harmed my extracts.
>> Many of my extracts are from dried specimens that colleagues and friends
>> have sent from around the world. These can be tricky and this is where
>> water can be a problem, through humidity. Specimens stored even briefly in
>> humid conditions are generally useless for DNA work (this obviously
>applies
>> to specimens relaxed in a humid box for spreading). The reason is most
>> likely that bacteria and fungi (moulds) get into the butterfly and
>> basically have a party, ie eat up anything and everything organic
>including
>> DNA. I've been thinking of experimenting with different kinds of relaxing
>> procedures to see whether some procedure would be less harmful to DNA, but
>> I haven't had the time yet.
>>     As for storing specimens for future possible analysis, I reiterate
>what
>> Catherine said in a previous post. Keep them frozen (the colder the
>> better). Pure ethanol (70% ethanol is not good enough) is also an option
>if
>> there is no freezer available. Drying specimens quickly works wonderfully
>> if the specimen will be processed within 1-2 months of being killed. I
>> haven't noticed any effects of the way a butterfly was killed (chloroform
>> is used routinely in DNA extractions, so I can't see why it should destroy
>> DNA) on the quality of DNA.
>>     I envision future holotypes of new species having their DNA extracted
>> from a leg or two, with the DNA info complementing the more visible info.
>> With the way things are going now, who knows, maybe in 20 years we will be
>> sequencing the entire genome of new species routinely! I think it is worth
>> preserving tissue (two legs...) from new taxa now, so that in the future,
>> we can get even more information about what these beautiful creatures
>> actually are.
>>      My two (euro) cents.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Niklas
>>
>> 
>
>
>
> 
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>
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>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
> 
>
>
>


 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Sun Jul 22 23:24:56 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:24:56 -0500
Subject: Recognize caterpillar? and interesting larval camouflage
In-Reply-To: <aRJ67.1629$Ck.42578@ord-read.news.verio.net>
References: <3B5A7F8B.6853@mb.sympatico.ca>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20010722132633.00a98ed0@b.pop.kiva.net>
 <3B5B4418.6166@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010722222200.00aa9e30@b.pop.kiva.net>

 >   puss caterpilars (at least in North America) have stinging hairs hidden
 >beneath the soft surface hairs. I don't think they squirt anything. They are
 >in the genus Lagoa.

The common name thing has tripped us up again.   In that great book, 
Caterpillars of Eastern Forests, I see two larvae both called "puss" - one 
is Lagoa, covered with fur, and the other one, which looks like the Swedish 
picture, is Furcula, with no fur and long tails.  In two dif 
families.   *sigh*   Book says the tails are "extrusible" but no mention of 
squirting, so I guess I was wrong.

Liz


 
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Mon Jul 23 00:52:58 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 05:52:58 +0100
Subject: Not a gatekeeper
Message-ID: <3B5BADAA.6FDA155E@anu.ie>

Ian Rippey, having perused my photo, tells me that what I have here is a
Meadow Brown, Maniola jurtina. 
So scratch out my Gatekeeper, in case you have written it on your map of
Ireland, and replace it with a Meadow Brown, also not recorded on my
turf. 
But, in fact, very common. 
Forgive the cross-posting.
I blame the butterfly. It doesn't look a bit like the pictures in the
books. 
Another rainy day, oh boy. 
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

 
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From lepidopterists at home.com  Mon Jul 23 02:53:38 2001
From: lepidopterists at home.com (lepidopterists)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 06:53:38 GMT
Subject: Help! Butterfly I.D.
Message-ID: <SRP67.19130$zb.320371@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>

  Collected from Merritt, B.C. Canada July 7, 2001. Elevation was about 915
meters. Wingspan is 1-3/4 inches.
Collected this specimen while it was nectering at some flowers with several
similar sized fritillaries. I have looked through all of my substantial
reference material and cannot find any species that are even remotely
patterned. I believe this must be an aberrant specimen most likely of one of
the several species of fritillaries that frequent this area. All onions are
welcome as currently I only have my own.

  Regards, Robert Vandermoor
  Coquitlam, B.C. Canada.


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#'__9
`
end


 
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From sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com  Mon Jul 23 02:11:38 2001
From: sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com (Pierre A Plauzoles)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:11:38 -0700
Subject: A Leper?
References: <sb4d68a8.034@209.165.33.133>
Message-ID: <3B5BC01A.E55AAD2@bigfoot.com>


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Kelly Richers wrote:

> I suspect it means you have too much time on your hands, Leroy!  Kelly

I think he really means "lepper", a rather new (I think) and somewhat
(HA!!) colloquial abbreviation of the term "lepidopterist", which is
defined as "one who studies butterlfies and/or moths".

> >>> <Leptraps at aol.com> 07/12/01 08:56AM >>>
> In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went to
> visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there,
> however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the
> disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster
> Dictionary. I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late
> Howard Cosell, was not there either.
>
> MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?

Simply that one cannot rely only on one's trusty Webster's.  No biggie.

While you are at it, the is also a new definition for "cat":
"lepidopteran larva, or caterpillar" (the same situation applies here,
the word "cat" being used as an abbreviation for "caterpillar").  I
guess certain lepidopterists got "light-tongued" and stole the
abbreviation from the Caterpillar tractor people..........  :-)

Pierre A Plauzoles
sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body style="FONT: 8pt Tahoma; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
Kelly Richers wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font size=-1>I suspect it means you have too much
time on your hands, Leroy!&nbsp; Kelly</font></blockquote>
I think he really means "lepper", a rather new (I think) and somewhat (HA!!)
colloquial abbreviation of the term "lepidopterist", which is defined as
"one who studies butterlfies and/or moths".
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>>>> &lt;Leptraps at aol.com> 07/12/01 08:56AM >>>
<br>In a recent post I saw the words Leper and butterflier, So, I went
to visit my old friend Webster Dictionary. The word Leper is is there,
however, it has nothing to do with Lepidoptera, it is someone with the
disease, Leprosy.The word butterflier is not in my 1999 Webster Dictionary.
I also looked in the Dictionary of Words used by the late Howard Cosell,
was not there either.
<p>MMMMMMMMMM! What does all this mean?</blockquote>
Simply that one cannot rely only on one's trusty Webster's.&nbsp; No biggie.
<p>While you are at it, the is also a new definition for "cat": "lepidopteran
larva, or caterpillar" (the same situation applies here, the word "cat"
being used as an abbreviation for "caterpillar").&nbsp; I guess certain
lepidopterists got "light-tongued" and stole the abbreviation from the
Caterpillar tractor people..........&nbsp; :-)
<p>Pierre A Plauzoles
<br>sphinxangelorum at bigfoot.com
<br>&nbsp;
</body>
</html>

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From sebrez at webtv.net  Mon Jul 23 23:04:40 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:04:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: checklist
Message-ID: <22451-3B5CE5C8-397@storefull-121.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Don't know if its any big deal or not but as I was browsing the
checklist for Delaware County, New York, in the skipper section I
noticed that the common checkered skipper, pyrgus communis, of which I
see often, is not listed. Is it because it is so common or just nobody
bothered to enter it? 


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From support277 at sicovam.com  Tue Jul 24 07:47:46 2001
From: support277 at sicovam.com (support277 at sicovam.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:47:46 -0700
Subject: 24hr customer support                         15533
Message-ID: <00006fd4196c$00001233$00003cad@sicovam.com>

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From j-oswald at tamu.edu  Tue Jul 24 11:41:44 2001
From: j-oswald at tamu.edu (John D. Oswald)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:41:44 -0500
Subject: Lepidoptera Images (>1000 species)
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010724104144.009e3df0@agmail.tamu.edu>

    Approximately 1700 digital images representing >1000 lepidopteran
species (both butterflies and moths), primarily from the south-central
United States, are now accessible from the Tiara Biodiversity Project web
site (http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/tiara/). All images are aggregated on taxon
pages of species and higher rank, and the site can be easily searched by
scientific name for desired images. Common name searching, using names from
several popular sources, is also available. The images originate from a
variety of sources, but the majority are currently by Ed Knudson and Mike
Quinn. The comprehensive Knudson & Bordelon listing of Texas Lepidoptera
(>4700 spp.) is also available on the Tiara site (select this option from
the "Special Projects" page). 
     Please send questions or comments about this resource to
j-oswald at tamu.edu.
John D. Oswald
Department of Entomology
Texas A&M University


 
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From ricardo at ans.com.au  Tue Jul 24 18:15:30 2001
From: ricardo at ans.com.au (Vr.R.Bejsak-Colloredo-Mansfeld)
Date: 24 Jul 2001 15:15:30 -0700
Subject: Rare or Threatened
Message-ID: <55542081.0107241415.5cfc1aa8@posting.google.com>

I would like to know how to categorize abundance of the insect.
 What is beetle like Papilio xy? Rare or Endangered?
 Is there any link between category like:
 Very common - Common - Very abundant - Abundant - Rare - Very rare -
 Sporadic
 and category like:
 Common - Vulnerable  - Threatened - Endangered - Critically Endangered???

 Is there any paper, publication dealing with this issues?

 Thank you very much for your help.
 Keep care and be of good cheer.

 Regards

 (name) Vratislav Richard Eugene Maria John Baptist
 (surname) of Bejsak (Bayshark)-Colloredo-Mansfeld

 website: http://www.coleoptera.org
 listserver: coleoptera on www.egroup.com/group/coleoptera/info.html
 Coleoptera - Australia, Tenebrionidae of World
 (incl. Lagriinae, Alleculinae)

 University of Sydney
 The Wentworth Bldg., Box 62
 NSW 2006
 AUSTRALIA
 phone  :  +61 414 540 465
 email: vratislav at bigfoot.com
            ricardo at ans.com.au
            (before Ricardo at compuserve.com
              and    ricardo at login.cz )

 Only after the last tree has been cut down,
 only after the last river has been poisoned,
 only after the last fish has been caught,
 only then will you find that money can not be eaten.'
         CREE INDIAN PROPHECY.

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From bthomas at lc3s.com  Mon Jul 23 20:49:46 2001
From: bthomas at lc3s.com (Bob Thomas)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:49:46 -0700
Subject: Yosemite
Message-ID: <Etn77.2467$6a4.65785@news-west.usenetserver.com>

Spent last week in Yosemite National Park and visited Wawona Big Trees for a
day.  Beautiful weather and outstanding natural landscape!
Here's the Lep report:

Western Tiger Swallowtail   8
Pale Swallowtail                   1
Lorquin's Admiral                85+
Monarch                                12
Leto's Fritillary                        8
Pine White                            Dozens and dozens

Here is my Lep identifier question of the week  -  I observed a small brown
butterfly that cannot be matched with certainty in the fields guides I have.
It had a wing span of one and a quarter inches.  Rich brown to reddish brown
FW and HW with a fat hairy brown body.  The underside of the wings were
lighter brown with a large red spot on the hind wing (Thecla spot on a
Hairstreak).
The butterfly was too large to be a female Blue and the underside was wrong
for a Blue.  Any ideas?


--
Bob Thomas

Cameron Park, California





 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 24 20:11:58 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:11:58 -0400
Subject: Rare or Threatened and relative abundance status
In-Reply-To: ricardo@ans.com.au (Vr.R.Bejsak-Colloredo-Mansfeld)
        "Rare or Threatened" (Jul 24,  3:15pm)
References: <55542081.0107241415.5cfc1aa8@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <1010724201202.ZM4238@Gochfeld>

In response to the following question 

I would like to know how to categorize abundance of the insect.

Rare or Endangered?

 Is there any link between category like:
 Very common - Common - Very abundant - Abundant - Rare - Very rare -
 Sporadic
 and category like:
 Common - Vulnerable  - Threatened - Endangered - Critically 
Endangered???

The status  "special concern", "vulnerable", etc are conservation status 
categories which have legal or quasi-legal status when it comes to 
conservation and management.  A species may be classified as endangered 
even if it is locally common, if there are only one or two populations 
in a state. 

The other categories: abundance, etc, can be considered categories of 
relative abundance.  We provided a semi-quantitative definition in 
BUTTERFLIES OF NEW JERSEY (p36). 
"superabundant" one may find more than 500 individuals in a given place, 
or a 4JC (fourth of July count) total greater than 2,000"
	This is all relative:  2000 Cabbage White (Pieris rapae) may not 
seemlike much, while 2000 swallowtails would generally be accepted as 
superabundant. 

Abundant: more than 20 at the right time or place or more than 500 on a 
4JC. 

Common: 5-20 in a day and more than 100 on a 4JC

Fairly common   1-4 individuals in a day and more than 10 on a 4JC

Uncommon  1-4 individuals several times in a season, but not daily

Occasionally common.  5-20 individuals in a day but only a few times in 
a season. 

Locally common: "a species that is uncommon, rare or absent in most 
habitats or locality, but common in its preferred habitat" (or in a few 
localities).

Rare.  Not usually seen at any time and place.  Fewer than five times in 
a season and then only one individual at a time.

Irruptive: usually rare or absent, but may occasionally become common or 
abundant. 

We didn't incude vagrant, accidental, or other terms to describe species 
that can NEVER be expected but somehow turn up far out of range.

In reading these definitions written more than a decade ago, I wonder 
whether they should be taken seriously or whether they can be applied 
across species.  For instance 10 Harvesters (Feniseca) would be 
considered abundant in most locations. 

The final answer: I don't think there is much of a relationship 
betweenthe conservation status and the relative abundance. 
I hope that is helpful.  M. Gochfeld

 
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From MWalker at gensym.com  Wed Jul 25 03:47:14 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 03:47:14 -0400
Subject: AZ Roadtrip - Day One
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DE1@hqmail.gensym.com>

Well, I've been off on another crazy roadtrip - this one originally intended
on being only for pleasure, but ending up work related afterall.  The bad
news is that I'm not able to head up to Corvalis - where many of you are
probably reading this.  Another LepSoc meeting that I can't attend.  At
least I've been in the field for several days.  That makes me feel a little
better (OK, so a lot better).

I wanted to do something completely different on this trip.  I took my son
along, and we drove all day and night on Friday to arrive in SE AZ.  On
Saturday morning, July 21, we got up on the eastern side of Tucson, ate some
cheese eggs and raisin toast at the local Waffle House, and drove to the
remote locations upon Mt. Graham in Graham County.  I expected to be the
only lep lunatic in the area.  How incredibly funny that Hank and SEABA were
on the mountain that day as well.  I'm sure we passed each other.  There's
only one road, and we were on it from 9:30 a.m. until 5:00 p.m.

This is an incredible habitat.  Like many of the mountain ranges in this
part of Arizona, heading upward causes landscape transformation before your
very eyes.  Before you know it, you're looking to put on a coat.  Too bad
you didn't think to bring one.

Mt. Graham is tall and creates it's own weather.  It's monsoon season at
this time of the year in AZ - and you can expect rain at some point during
virtually every day.  But on Mt. Graham, this likelihood is even higher.
Clouds form there when there are few others in the sky.  On the other hand,
during my following days in AZ I have noticed better weather on the mountain
than we experienced on Saturday.  Oh well.  It comes with the territory -
especially when you're me (which I am).  I am absolutely convinced that I
bring precipitation wherever I go.  I suppose I should figure out how to put
it to better use.  In any case, it definitely affected the lep activity on
the upper reaches of Mt. Graham.  Luckily, morning at the lower elevations
brought sufficient sunlight to provide for some good lepping.

Then again, when you pick a place like Mt. Graham - you don't really need to
see any leps.  The floral and geological scenery speaks for themselves.

Before heading for the upper reaches, we picked out a great campsite.  The
camp fee was $10, and of course I didn't bring any change.  While walking
about the campground soliciting for change for a $20, I ran into a nice
couple.  I asked if they had change.  I was wearing a green fishing vest,
and was looking very Forest-Service-like.  The man searched his pockets for
change.  The woman looked at me and mentioned how they had been rained out
at the upper campground, and that they were hoping to get a refund.  I
simply nodded.  She mentioned that it was only fair, and I said, "uh huh".
And then, with big eyes, she says to me, "Do you work here?".

"No, I don't", I replied.

"You don't work here and you collect?", she asked in dismay.

"Well, yes", I said somewhat apologetically.

"You collect, but you don't work here?", she asked again, this time with
some degree of alarm.

I started to nod again and prepare to defend myself when she added, "How can
you collect if you don't work here?".  That's when I realized she was
pointing at the $20 bill in my hand.

"No! No!  He's not collecting", interrupted her husband, "he's asking for
change".

This could only happen to me.  I wondered how she knew I was collecting when
I had left my net in the car.  "You collect?". That's too much.  A better
response:  "Who, me?"  

He didn't have any change.  Neither did anyone else.  I stuffed a $5 bill in
the camping fee envelope, and determined I'd get it from someone later.
When we returned to setup camp, the Mt. Graham rains finally came.  We
decided we didn't really want to camp in the rain, and so we picked up camp
- considered the $5 a suitable donation - and headed for the Ramada Inn at
Safford.

Nice place, BTW.  We had a swim in their indoor pool, I introduced Christian
to the wonders of dry sauna, and then we went to the MegaCinema of Safford
and watched Jurassic Park III.  Father and son.  Not caring enough to read
any reviews, we decided we enjoyed it.

Here's our list from Day One:

Battus philenor (Pipevine Swallowtail)
Papilio polyxenes (Black Swallowtail)
Papilio multicaudata (Two-Tailed Swallowtail)

Pontia protodice (Checkered White)
Colias eurytheme (Orange Sulphur)
Zerene cesonia (Southern Dogface)
Phoebis sennae (Cloudless Sulphur)
Eurema mexicana (Mexican Yellow)
Nathalis iole (Dainty Sulphur)

Strymon melinus (Gray Hairstreak)
Celastrina ladon (Spring Azure)
Hemiargus ceraunus (Ceraunus Blue)
Leptotes marina (Marine Blue)
Plebejus acmon (Acmon Blue)

Phyciodes texana (Texas Crescentspot)
Texola elada (Elada Checkerspot)

Polygonia satyrus (Satyr Comma)
Euptoieta claudia (Variegated Fritillary)
Vanessa cardui (Painted Lady)
Vanessa atalanta (Red Admiral)
Limenitis arthemis arizonensis (Arizona Purple)
Limenitis weidemeyerii (Weidemeyer's Admiral)
Adelpha bredowii eulalia (Arizona Sister)
Cyllopsis pyracmon nabokovi (Pyracmon Satyr)
Megisto rubricata (Red Satyr)  

Staphylus ceos (Ceos Skipper)
Erynnis juvenalis (Juvenal's Duksywing)
Pholisora catullus (Common Sootywing)
Poanes taxiles (Taxiles Skipper)

Mark Walker
still in Tucson, AZ
  

 
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From spruance at infinet.com  Wed Jul 25 09:17:59 2001
From: spruance at infinet.com (Eric or Pat Metzler)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:17:59 -0400
Subject: Rare or Threatened and relative abundance status
References: 24,, 3:15pm), <1010724201202.ZM4238@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <3b5ec9b4$0$62148$ac966d11@news.raex.com>

Dear Vratislav Richard Eugene Maria John Baptist

Your questions are excellent, and deserve full exploration by us and all
field bioloists.

I offer one caveat to Michael Gochfeld's highly informative and very
accurate answer.  He's absolutely correct about the definitions.  In many
cases the distinctions drawn by Goldfeld do not exist.  There are two views,
the academic, and the view practiced in the field.  The views practiced in
the field, unfortunately, blur the distinctions he offers.

In the vernacular, the average person, and many learned persons who
interpret the laws of threatened and endangered, equate rare with
endangered.  In fact, many classifications, i.e. The Nature Conservancy's
classifications, and some regulations use the phrase "rare or
threatened/endangered."  Therefore, when we field persons use the word
"rare" to mean "Not usually seen at any time and place.  Fewer than five
times in
 a season and then only one individual at a time." sensu Goldfeld, the
regulators assume the species is threatened or endangered.  By their
official definitions, such is the case.  Which means, the distinctions drawn
by Goldfeld: "The final answer: I don't think there is much of a
relationship betweenthe conservation status and the relative abundance." is
interpreted just the opposite for most other people.

The distinction I draw is especially important when a person is talking
about organisms that are under-sampled for any number or reasons including
the inadequacy of the sampling methods (i.e. using black lights for day
flying moths).  A declaration of an abundant species of moth, which is
poorly represented in collections, as being rare could result in the moth
being listed as endangered.  In Ohio, such a scenerio almost happened when
the very learned Roy Rings innocently prepared a list of species, that are
rare in collections, for a project on reprentation of specimens in
collections in Ohio, only to find the list used by the USFWS as a basis for
declaring the same species as endangered.  It was very embarrassing for Roy
to have to discredit his own list just because someone else misused it.

The distinction I draw happened in Michigan when Mo Nielsen innocently
provided a listing of species rarely seen in Michigan only to have his list
become the central list of endangered species including ephemeral species
that do not annually reside in Michigan.  It has taken about 10 years to
straghten out the missunderstanding in Michigan.  Inexcusibly, the burden
was on Mo to explain why his listing was wrong, even though he carefully
documented all of his assumptions.

In both cases, and I'm sure there are others, the confusion came because of
the official definition of "rare = threatened/endangered."

For these reasons, I no longer use the word "rare," and I encourage others
to drop this word from their vocabulary.  The word "rare" is so often
misinterpreted that I feel it has no precision, no matter the definition.  I
now use the phrase "infrequently seen," for which there is not official
definition, legal or otherwise, thus I am allowed to create my own
definition.

When you use the word "rare" you are subject to some other person's
definition.  And it doesn't matter how careful you are to create your own
definition.

I hope these case histories help answer your questions.

The Lepidopterists' Society's annual meeting is in Corvalis, Oregon end of
this week, and I hope that many of you will be there.

Cheers to all from Columbus, Ohio where it has been punishingly hot, but now
it is raining.

Eric Metzler

"Michael Gochfeld" <gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote in message
news:1010724201202.ZM4238 at Gochfeld...
> In response to the following question
>
> I would like to know how to categorize abundance of the insect.
>
> Rare or Endangered?
>
>  Is there any link between category like:
>  Very common - Common - Very abundant - Abundant - Rare - Very rare -
>  Sporadic
>  and category like:
>  Common - Vulnerable  - Threatened - Endangered - Critically
> Endangered???
>
> The status  "special concern", "vulnerable", etc are conservation status
> categories which have legal or quasi-legal status when it comes to
> conservation and management.  A species may be classified as endangered
> even if it is locally common, if there are only one or two populations
> in a state.
>
> The other categories: abundance, etc, can be considered categories of
> relative abundance.  We provided a semi-quantitative definition in
> BUTTERFLIES OF NEW JERSEY (p36).
> "superabundant" one may find more than 500 individuals in a given place,
> or a 4JC (fourth of July count) total greater than 2,000"
> This is all relative:  2000 Cabbage White (Pieris rapae) may not
> seemlike much, while 2000 swallowtails would generally be accepted as
> superabundant.
>
> Abundant: more than 20 at the right time or place or more than 500 on a
> 4JC.
>
> Common: 5-20 in a day and more than 100 on a 4JC
>
> Fairly common   1-4 individuals in a day and more than 10 on a 4JC
>
> Uncommon  1-4 individuals several times in a season, but not daily
>
> Occasionally common.  5-20 individuals in a day but only a few times in
> a season.
>
> Locally common: "a species that is uncommon, rare or absent in most
> habitats or locality, but common in its preferred habitat" (or in a few
> localities).
>
> Rare.  Not usually seen at any time and place.  Fewer than five times in
> a season and then only one individual at a time.
>
> Irruptive: usually rare or absent, but may occasionally become common or
> abundant.
>
> We didn't incude vagrant, accidental, or other terms to describe species
> that can NEVER be expected but somehow turn up far out of range.
>
> In reading these definitions written more than a decade ago, I wonder
> whether they should be taken seriously or whether they can be applied
> across species.  For instance 10 Harvesters (Feniseca) would be
> considered abundant in most locations.
>
> The final answer: I don't think there is much of a relationship
> betweenthe conservation status and the relative abundance.
> I hope that is helpful.  M. Gochfeld
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>



 
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From aa6g at aa6g.org  Wed Jul 25 09:08:42 2001
From: aa6g at aa6g.org (Chuck Vaughn)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 06:08:42 -0700
Subject: Yosemite
In-Reply-To: <Etn77.2467$6a4.65785@news-west.usenetserver.com>
Message-ID: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>

Bob,

Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.

Chuck <aa6g at aa6g.org>

-------------------------------

> From: "Bob Thomas" <bthomas at lc3s.com>
> Organization: WebUseNet Corp.  http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the
> UseNet
> Reply-To: bthomas at lc3s.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:49:46 -0700
> To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject: Yosemite
> 
> Spent last week in Yosemite National Park and visited Wawona Big Trees for a
> day.  Beautiful weather and outstanding natural landscape!
> Here's the Lep report:
> 
> Western Tiger Swallowtail   8
> Pale Swallowtail                   1
> Lorquin's Admiral                85+
> Monarch                                12
> Leto's Fritillary                        8
> Pine White                            Dozens and dozens
> 
> Here is my Lep identifier question of the week  -  I observed a small brown
> butterfly that cannot be matched with certainty in the fields guides I have.
> It had a wing span of one and a quarter inches.  Rich brown to reddish brown
> FW and HW with a fat hairy brown body.  The underside of the wings were
> lighter brown with a large red spot on the hind wing (Thecla spot on a
> Hairstreak).
> The butterfly was too large to be a female Blue and the underside was wrong
> for a Blue.  Any ideas?
> 
> 
> --
> Bob Thomas
> 
> Cameron Park, California


 
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From cleston at direct.ca  Wed Jul 25 12:19:28 2001
From: cleston at direct.ca (Christine Leston)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:19:28 -0700
Subject: Lepers: Proposal
References: <94.16c15811.28808b95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <hvC77.54915$Mb7.1785418@brie.direct.ca>


MexicoDoug at aol.com wrote in message <94.16c15811.28808b95 at aol.com>...
>How 'bout some comments on the flooiwing ideas:
>
>Lepster odo bean Webster, defined as follows:
>
>Lepster: A butterfly and/or moth enthusiast, a simplified and arguably
>modernized form derived from "Lepidopterist" covering subscribers to the
two
>broad and popularly accepted professions and hobbies based on human
>interactions and/or study of the order Lepidoptera.
>

<snip>

And Bugster, for those interested in bugs in general (suggested in "Bugs of
British Columbia".

C.M. Leston.

>Doug Dawn
>Monterrey, Mexico
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
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>
>



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Wed Jul 25 15:17:28 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:17:28 -0400
Subject: Serious first, fun second.
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>
Message-ID: <008701c1153e$727f8540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


Chuck Vaughn wrote:


> Bob,
>
> Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
> I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
> Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.

This is a general editorial and not directed at Bob in any way. The masses
of birders that have come over into lepping have brought their entire
vocabulary and way of doing business into this arena - except for one very
notable item.  My understanding, as a non-birder, is that there are some
stiff requirements among birders to insure proper identifications. Top on
this list is confirmation of ID by an accompanying person AND expert
verification.  I often see bogus listings in their unilateral "sightings"
of leps. How many of these have now, or will, become dots on maps? No one
else present, no vouchers, and usually no pictures. BOY, what an honest and
accurate group. ?

Can I make an observation?  This indicates something more serious to me
though. It is that the majority of these folks remain primarily birders,
and thus serious about birds and not butterflies. This is evidenced by, and
why they are much more lax about, butterfly IDing than for birds. In other
words their interest in butterflies is largely a passing fad - something
they do on the side while being serious birders. This is evidenced by the
_fact_ that a very large number (have now completed their butterfly life
list) are now all "flocking" over to prey on the dragonflies. If they were
all so honest or accurate, Audubon would not have made any rules relative
to identification. So if Audubon doesn't blindly, naively, categorically,
trust their own members - and - are so serious about scientific bird
accuracy that they are not afraid to "offend" someone by questioning and
requiring confirmation of identifications - how much more should
requirements and safeguards be placed on these same folks who have now
moved over to our leps land?

Gosh, this is like a kid going to a neighbor's house where the rules are
not so tough. We can go over to leps land and all be instant experts. That
is a lot more "fun" than the rigidity of birding. Birding is serious,
butterflies are just fun. How many times has someone posted those exact
words to me here or in private.  Ron, lighten up, butterflying is just
fun... we are just having fun... Well, their "fun" is someone else's
science. There is plenty of fun in lepping. But not by sacrificing the
serious and scientific part of it. IDing and reporting living organisms -
as demonstrated by the Audubon rules - is not something to play with.

And people wonder why folks like myself or Chris are not big fans of NABA
or see a dumbing down of lepidopterology. Further, the NABA names list is
not The standardized list of common names. Far from it.

Ron

PS  I forgot to mention that I saw an Ivory Billed Woodpecker in the swamp
near my house last week. Yes, I was alone,  but what does that have to do
with anything.


 
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From aa6g at aa6g.org  Wed Jul 25 16:48:29 2001
From: aa6g at aa6g.org (Chuck Vaughn)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:48:29 -0700
Subject: Serious first, fun second.
In-Reply-To: <008701c1153e$727f8540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <B7847EAD.23B5%aa6g@aa6g.org>

Hi Ron,

I want to add a couple recent personal experiences that back up the
need for voucher specimens and independent verification. This also
relates to something else I've read recently and that is the validity
of eyewitness reports. Such reports have always been considered the
most important evidence in court cases but as we learn more about
how human memory works it is beginning to appear that they should be
given less importance and scientific evidence should be given priority.

I have a friend who has some interest in butterflies and occasionally
calls me with a description of something he's seen. The descriptions
never match any butterfly native to our region. Somehow he misses the
key characteristics necessary even for a guess.

Another friend at work has a much greater interest and plants many
flowering plants to attract butterflies in his yard and catches and
mounts some. Recently he came to work with the news that he had
caught an unusual swallowtail. It was almost all black with only
remnants of tails. I asked if it could be an Anise Swallowtail
(P.zelicaon) and he said it had much more black than that. We got
on the internet and went to the Butterflies of North America site
and looked at all the swallowtails. He identified it as P. indra.
I showed him that there were no confirmed records of P. indra in
Santa Clara county and this could be of interest. I wanted to see
it so I could confirm it. A few days later he brought it in. Well
guess what? It was a beat up P. zelicaon with no tails left.

This shows that even people with some experience can mis-id obvious
specimens and that id'ing from memory is not very reliable.

Chuck <aa6g at aa6g.org>

-----------------------------------
 
>> Bob,
>> 
>> Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
>> I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
>> Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.
> 
> This is a general editorial and not directed at Bob in any way. The masses
> of birders that have come over into lepping have brought their entire
> vocabulary and way of doing business into this arena - except for one very
> notable item.  My understanding, as a non-birder, is that there are some
> stiff requirements among birders to insure proper identifications. Top on
> this list is confirmation of ID by an accompanying person AND expert
> verification.  I often see bogus listings in their unilateral "sightings"
> of leps. How many of these have now, or will, become dots on maps? No one
> else present, no vouchers, and usually no pictures. BOY, what an honest and
> accurate group. ?
> 
> Can I make an observation?  This indicates something more serious to me
> though. It is that the majority of these folks remain primarily birders,
> and thus serious about birds and not butterflies. This is evidenced by, and
> why they are much more lax about, butterfly IDing than for birds. In other
> words their interest in butterflies is largely a passing fad - something
> they do on the side while being serious birders. This is evidenced by the
> _fact_ that a very large number (have now completed their butterfly life
> list) are now all "flocking" over to prey on the dragonflies. If they were
> all so honest or accurate, Audubon would not have made any rules relative
> to identification. So if Audubon doesn't blindly, naively, categorically,
> trust their own members - and - are so serious about scientific bird
> accuracy that they are not afraid to "offend" someone by questioning and
> requiring confirmation of identifications - how much more should
> requirements and safeguards be placed on these same folks who have now
> moved over to our leps land?
> 
> Gosh, this is like a kid going to a neighbor's house where the rules are
> not so tough. We can go over to leps land and all be instant experts. That
> is a lot more "fun" than the rigidity of birding. Birding is serious,
> butterflies are just fun. How many times has someone posted those exact
> words to me here or in private.  Ron, lighten up, butterflying is just
> fun... we are just having fun... Well, their "fun" is someone else's
> science. There is plenty of fun in lepping. But not by sacrificing the
> serious and scientific part of it. IDing and reporting living organisms -
> as demonstrated by the Audubon rules - is not something to play with.
> 
> And people wonder why folks like myself or Chris are not big fans of NABA
> or see a dumbing down of lepidopterology. Further, the NABA names list is
> not The standardized list of common names. Far from it.
> 
> Ron
> 
> PS  I forgot to mention that I saw an Ivory Billed Woodpecker in the swamp
> near my house last week. Yes, I was alone,  but what does that have to do
> with anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
> http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> 
> 
> 


 
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From monarch at saber.net  Wed Jul 25 17:58:18 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:58:18 -0700
Subject: Yosemite
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>
Message-ID: <3B5F40FA.60FB@saber.net>

Chuck Vaughn wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
> I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
> Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.

Good point Chuck. I agree with you it is highly unlikely Bob
saw 85 Lorquin Admirals. I live in the Sierra Nevada foothills
not too far from Yosemite and California Sisters are far more
common than Lorquin Admirals. These two species so alike that one
sometimes has to get up pretty close to them to make a positive ID.

Paul Cherubini
Placerville, Calif.

 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Wed Jul 25 19:10:50 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:10:50 -0500
Subject: Serious first, fun second.
In-Reply-To: <008701c1153e$727f8540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010725173421.00aa1940@b.pop.kiva.net>

 >> Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?

 >...there are some stiff requirements among birders to insure proper 
identifications..... I often see bogus listings in their unilateral 
"sightings" of leps.

Ron, you are correct, but incomplete.   I read a daily birding list that 
consists mostly of reports of sightings just like this.   As far as I know, 
the information posted to the list does not become any kind of official 
scientific record.   Anyone, including beginners who think they saw a 
condor in their back yard, can post their reports.   But the official 
counts, surveys, and records are not based on internet postings.    I would 
hope that no serious scientific work on leps would be either.

 >How many of these have now, or will, become dots on maps?

As someone who is making maps with dots, I figure that if the map author is 
careless enough to accept inadequate evidence of a species' presence, the 
fault is with the author.

Liz


 
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From teri.beiriger at att.net  Wed Jul 25 23:11:01 2001
From: teri.beiriger at att.net (Robert Beiriger)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:11:01 -0700
Subject: Wing Drup
Message-ID: <004e01c11580$9b501b00$b1e62581@terib>

Dear all:

    Living in humid South Florida, drying specimens during the summer is not
the problem, since most of us leave are A/C on 24 hours a day.  They do dry
rather well this way.  During the rest of the year is when we have our
problems.  During these periods,  I  leaving my specimens on the boards for
at least 2 months.  To be sure my wings do not drup, I do a finish drying in
the oven.  The oven is set on the lowest heat level (on my oven this level
is about 120-125 degree F).  A slow dry over this period and the finish
drying in the oven tends to prevent wing drup.

Robert Beiriger
Loxahatchee, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: Liz Day <beebuzz at kiva.net>
To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 11:59 AM
Subject: drying specimens in humid conditions


> Hello all,
>
> I'm going to be mounting a lot of big fat moth specimens.  The ambient
> humidity is around 65-85% (including indoors unless I air condition).
This
> is normal for summer here.  In these conditions I've found that bumblebees
> rot before they dry, so big moths probably would too.   I decided this
> could be fixed by putting the specimens in my car sitting in the sun.   I
> just measured the temperature in there and it's 51C (124F).   This should
> be sufficient to lower the humidity enough, but I worry that the heat will
> hurt the specimens in some way.  (They are not in direct sun.)   Does
> anyone know?
>
> I'm also gonna try a big cardboard box with an incandescent light bulb in
> it.  The specimens can go in here for a week after the initial drying in
> the car.   Any experience/advice with this type of setup?
>
> (Paying to aircondition the whole apartment for two weeks to dry bugs is
> too painful to consider.  The oven won't work either for various
> reasons.  In the past, specimens dried well under an incandescent desk
> light, but now there are too many of them to fit.)
>
> Thank you....
>
> Liz
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Liz Day
> Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
> USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous
> forest.
> daylight at kiva.net
> www.kiva.net/~daylight
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>

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From kennk at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 25 21:23:07 2001
From: kennk at ix.netcom.com (Kenn Kaufman)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:23:07 -0700
Subject: Mass movement of Kricogonia lyside
Message-ID: <000001c11571$d6740520$9bd7323f@newmicronpc>


One of the pierids that regularly invades northward 
into Arizona in summer, especially in years when the 
rains have been good in Sonora, is Kricogonia lyside
(Lyside Sulphur).  These invasions often take the form 
of simultaneous mass migrations.  Today (25 July 
2001), such a mass flight was passing through the 
northern foothills of Tucson.  

At a point about half a mile south of Sabino Canyon 
visitor center, I first noticed numbers of K. lyside 
flying past about 11:00 a.m. MST.   Individuals were
passing at an estimated rate of 10 - 20 per minute.  
Abandoning the work I should have been doing, I 
went out to make some serious counts.  Numbers 
increased rapidly, and during the period from about 
11:20 to 11:50,  50 to 100-plus per minute passed 
across a stretch of hillside about 30 yards wide. 
Virtually all individuals were flying toward the 
northeast or east-northeast, a minority stopping 
briefly at nectar (Lantana, Ageratum, etc.).  Most 
that I counted were within 20 or 30 feet of the 
ground, but occasional scans with binoculars 
showed that others were going over much higher, 
perhaps 100 feet or more, traveling in the same 
direction.  Numbers gradually tapered off after 
12:00 but they were still passing at 10 - 20 per 
minute at 12:30, 1:30, and 2:30 when I checked 
again.  During the peak passage I netted a few 
dozen for examination and all were in fairly fresh 
condition or only slightly worn.  

Checking with a couple of other naturalists by 
phone, I learned that Carl Englander was seeing 
similar numbers at a point five miles west and 
one mile north of where I was (but his were 
flying north or even north-northwest), while Rick 
Bowers watched for an extended period at a 
point twelve miles west of me and saw none 
at all.  Bowers's position was in the flats at 
some distance away from the mountains, while 
Englander and I were at the immediate edge of 
the Santa Catalina Mountains; the concentrations 
that we saw, as well as the difference in flight 
directions, could have been explained if the 
sulphurs had all come in from the south at a 
fairly high level but were detouring to go around 
the mountains rather than over them.  

A little past the peak of the flight, when I stood 
on a low ridge and looked toward a distant slope, 
the foreshortened effect through binoculars made 
it look like a blizzard of creamy-white butterflies 
was blowing past.  Pretty amazing spectacle. 
Certainly tens of thousands of K. lyside were 
passing over Tucson today.  Anyone doing 
fieldwork to the north of here during the next 
couple of weeks should keep an eye out for 
this species.  

Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ
kennk at ix.netcom.com



 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Wed Jul 25 21:58:36 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:58:36 -0500
Subject: Rare or Threatened and relative abundance status
In-Reply-To: <3b5ec9b4$0$62148$ac966d11@news.raex.com>
References: <24,, 3:15pm), <1010724201202.ZM4238@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010725205315.02ace760@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Is it safe to use "scarce" for a resident species that is infrequently 
found, or does this word also have another definition in legal or 
specialized jargon?
   From now on I shall limit my use of "rare" to "var.s" and "ab.s" like 
the melanic *Speyeria* from BC that was shown us recently.

At 09:17 AM 7/25/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Vratislav Richard Eugene Maria John Baptist
>
>Your questions are excellent, and deserve full exploration by us and all
>field bioloists.
>
>I offer one caveat to Michael Gochfeld's highly informative and very
>accurate answer.  He's absolutely correct about the definitions.  In many
>cases the distinctions drawn by Goldfeld do not exist.  There are two views,
>the academic, and the view practiced in the field.  The views practiced in
>the field, unfortunately, blur the distinctions he offers.



 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Wed Jul 25 22:12:25 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:12:25 -0500
Subject: Serious first, fun second.
In-Reply-To: <008701c1153e$727f8540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010725210434.02ad0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 03:17 PM 7/25/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>Chuck Vaughn wrote:
>
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
> > I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
> > Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.
>
>
>not The standardized list of common names. Far from it.
>
>Ron
>
>PS  I forgot to mention that I saw an Ivory Billed Woodpecker in the swamp
>near my house last week. Yes, I was alone,  but what does that have to do
>with anything.
Ron,
    Be sure to get a second opinion on the ID of those mushrooms before you 
eat them next time!
..............Chris


 
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From bthomas at lc3s.com  Wed Jul 25 23:54:29 2001
From: bthomas at lc3s.com (Bob Thomas)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 20:54:29 -0700
Subject: Yosemite
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>, <3B5F40FA.60FB@saber.net>
Message-ID: <vmM77.7647$mO.103658@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>

    The underside of the Lorquin's Admiral is considerably different than
that of the California Sister.  In addition to that, the behavior and flight
characteristics of the Lorquin's Admiral are easily distinguished.  The
Admiral glides with wings open more than 180 degrees - unusual for most
species and not at all like the Sister.  The Admiral is highly territorial
and even will chase off dragonflies in its "zone".
    It is possible that I spotted some California Sisters at a distance, but
most sightings were very close along the trails which made identification of
the underside and flight patterns clear to discriminate.

    Paul, the climate in Placerville (20 minutes from where I live) is very
different than that of Yosemite.  There is a different mix of lepidoptera
also.

Bob Thomas
Butterfly enthusiast since 1966

Cameron Park, California


"Paul Cherubini" <monarch at saber.net> wrote in message
news:3B5F40FA.60FB at saber.net...
> Chuck Vaughn wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
> > I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
> > Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.
>
> Good point Chuck. I agree with you it is highly unlikely Bob
> saw 85 Lorquin Admirals. I live in the Sierra Nevada foothills
> not too far from Yosemite and California Sisters are far more
> common than Lorquin Admirals. These two species so alike that one
> sometimes has to get up pretty close to them to make a positive ID.
>
> Paul Cherubini
> Placerville, Calif.
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>




 
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From Citheronia at aol.com  Thu Jul 26 00:08:39 2001
From: Citheronia at aol.com (Citheronia at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 00:08:39 EDT
Subject: USGS Butterfly/Moth Sites
Message-ID: <17.1904a1da.2890f1c7@aol.com>

Hello all,

I was wondering who I would contact to send lists of Leps found in areas that 
I have collected, and yet are not said to be located in these counties on the 
USGS Butterfly/moth sites. There are many, many of these species, so I would 
like to help in updating the maps on these sites.

Thank you,
Randy Lyttle
Citheronia at aol.com
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 26 00:50:46 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 00:50:46 -0400
Subject: Yosemite
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>, <3B5F40FA.60FB@saber.net> <vmM77.7647$mO.103658@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>
Message-ID: <013c01c1158e$89632500$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Thomas" <bthomas at lc3s.com>


>     The underside of the Lorquin's Admiral is considerably different than
> that of the California Sister.  In addition to that, the behavior and
flight
> characteristics of the Lorquin's Admiral are easily distinguished.  The
> Admiral glides with wings open more than 180 degrees - unusual for most
> species and not at all like the Sister.  The Admiral is highly
territorial
> and even will chase off dragonflies in its "zone".
>     It is possible that I spotted some California Sisters at a distance,
but
> most sightings were very close along the trails which made identification
of
> the underside and flight patterns clear to discriminate.

Having lived in southern California and collected both of these species I
agree with Bob that once familiar with these two, they can be recognized
from a distance most of time by the contrasting flight characteristics
alone.

>
> Bob Thomas
> Butterfly enthusiast since 1966
>


This would qualify you as an expert in my opinion.

Ron



 
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Jul 26 00:58:15 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:58:15 -0600
Subject: Irruption of Painted Lady
Message-ID: <003501c1158f$aae00800$8e63a58e@allez123>

Large numbers of Painted Lady - Vanessa cardui have been noted for at least
the last three days in an area bounded from latitude 49.5 to 50.3 and
longitude 103.7 to 105.3.  (3500 square miles give or take a few feet.)

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3




 
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From monarch at saber.net  Thu Jul 26 01:25:52 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:25:52 -0700
Subject: Yosemite
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>, <3B5F40FA.60FB@saber.net> <vmM77.7647$mO.103658@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com>
Message-ID: <3B5FA9E0.224@saber.net>

Bob Thomas wrote:

> The underside of the Lorquin's Admiral is considerably different than
> that of the California Sister. 

Agreed: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/lor.jpg 

> In addition to that, the behavior and flight characteristics of 
> the Lorquin's Admiral are easily distinguished.  The Admiral glides 
> with wings open more than 180 degrees - unusual for most
> species and not at all like the Sister. 

I disagree. The California Sister glides in the B 52 bomber wing
configuration too. This is why the Sister and Lorquin's are so difficult
for me to tell apart when they are on the wing.  

Anyway, next time I'm in Yosemite I'll be extra careful not to assume
what looks to be a Sister might actually be a Lorquin's.

Paul Cherubini, Placerville, Calif.

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 26 02:18:06 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 02:18:06 -0400
Subject: re, re,Yosemite
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>, <3B5F40FA.60FB@saber.net> <vmM77.7647$mO.103658@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com> <3B5FA9E0.224@saber.net>
Message-ID: <01bf01c1159a$bca28940$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

In deference to Paul, he may be correct and my memory of 30 years ago off.
The limenitis flap and glide is the visual image I have. Of course this is
reinforced by eastern species I continue to see. So what do we have here?
Bob, Paul, Chuck, myself a group of individuals who each thinks they know
want they are talking about - and in reality are each qualified to "know".
All this actually proves in Chuck's point that the only sure way for
_everyone_ to know is to have either a voucher specimen or photograph.

I recently posted a record on the carolina leps site for a new North
Carolina state record of Erynnis lucilius. I would not accept this one by
the "word" of _anyone_ including myself. Which is why I 1) collected the
specimen,  2) examined the genitalia, 3) compared it to figures of spread
specimens in full view butterfly books, and 4) with reared individuals in
my collection from West Virginia (reared by Tom Allen).  Now, even with all
this, I want to go back and find some more to make 200% sure. (Of course in
Yosmite one can not collect without a permit - but pictures are an option.)

RG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cherubini" <monarch at saber.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: Yosemite


> Bob Thomas wrote:
>
> > The underside of the Lorquin's Admiral is considerably different than
> > that of the California Sister.
>
> Agreed: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/lor.jpg
>
> > In addition to that, the behavior and flight characteristics of
> > the Lorquin's Admiral are easily distinguished.  The Admiral glides
> > with wings open more than 180 degrees - unusual for most
> > species and not at all like the Sister.
>
> I disagree. The California Sister glides in the B 52 bomber wing
> configuration too. This is why the Sister and Lorquin's are so difficult
> for me to tell apart when they are on the wing.
>
> Anyway, next time I'm in Yosemite I'll be extra careful not to assume
> what looks to be a Sister might actually be a Lorquin's.
>
> Paul Cherubini, Placerville, Calif.
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Thu Jul 26 03:14:51 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:14:51 -0400
Subject: Serious first, fun second.
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org> <008701c1153e$727f8540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <00ee01c115a2$aa87db40$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

Ron -

This "Birder's" response;

In the first place "Audubon" has been dead for over a century, and he made
all his IDs over the barrel of a shotgun.

The American Birding Association sets ethical codes for behavior while in
the field, but there are NO standards for field identification except those
set by local and state birding organizations, and in the case of first North
American sightings, the American Ornithological Union. There are plenty of
bogus bird sightings that get reported - some are honest mistakes, and
others are the result of poor judgment.  Many of the subsequent debates are
anything but gentle.

 If you think that the birding community universally uses the same ID
standards, your ignorance of the birding world matches our ignorance of the
entomological world.   I also reiterate my earlier comment that there are
more than a few incorrectly identified pinned insect specimens as well as
bird specimens in museums.

Keep writing about skippers and your fieldwork - I learn a lot and don't
have to get annoyed.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net




----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 3:17 PM
Subject: Serious first, fun second.


>
> Chuck Vaughn wrote:
>
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > Are you sure the Lorquin's Admirals were not California Sisters?
> > I've been to Yosemite lots of times and have never seen Lorquin's
> > Admirals there but California Sisters are everywhere.
>
> This is a general editorial and not directed at Bob in any way. The masses
> of birders that have come over into lepping have brought their entire
> vocabulary and way of doing business into this arena - except for one very
> notable item.  My understanding, as a non-birder, is that there are some
> stiff requirements among birders to insure proper identifications. Top on
> this list is confirmation of ID by an accompanying person AND expert
> verification.  I often see bogus listings in their unilateral "sightings"
> of leps. How many of these have now, or will, become dots on maps? No one
> else present, no vouchers, and usually no pictures. BOY, what an honest
and
> accurate group. ?
>
> Can I make an observation?  This indicates something more serious to me
> though. It is that the majority of these folks remain primarily birders,
> and thus serious about birds and not butterflies. This is evidenced by,
and
> why they are much more lax about, butterfly IDing than for birds. In other
> words their interest in butterflies is largely a passing fad - something
> they do on the side while being serious birders. This is evidenced by the
> _fact_ that a very large number (have now completed their butterfly life
> list) are now all "flocking" over to prey on the dragonflies. If they were
> all so honest or accurate, Audubon would not have made any rules relative
> to identification. So if Audubon doesn't blindly, naively, categorically,
> trust their own members - and - are so serious about scientific bird
> accuracy that they are not afraid to "offend" someone by questioning and
> requiring confirmation of identifications - how much more should
> requirements and safeguards be placed on these same folks who have now
> moved over to our leps land?
>
> Gosh, this is like a kid going to a neighbor's house where the rules are
> not so tough. We can go over to leps land and all be instant experts. That
> is a lot more "fun" than the rigidity of birding. Birding is serious,
> butterflies are just fun. How many times has someone posted those exact
> words to me here or in private.  Ron, lighten up, butterflying is just
> fun... we are just having fun... Well, their "fun" is someone else's
> science. There is plenty of fun in lepping. But not by sacrificing the
> serious and scientific part of it. IDing and reporting living organisms -
> as demonstrated by the Audubon rules - is not something to play with.
>
> And people wonder why folks like myself or Chris are not big fans of NABA
> or see a dumbing down of lepidopterology. Further, the NABA names list is
> not The standardized list of common names. Far from it.
>
> Ron
>
> PS  I forgot to mention that I saw an Ivory Billed Woodpecker in the swamp
> near my house last week. Yes, I was alone,  but what does that have to do
> with anything.
>
>
>
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>
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 26 03:24:16 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:24:16 -0400
Subject: Serious first, fun second.
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org> <008701c1153e$727f8540$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <00ee01c115a2$aa87db40$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <000a01c115a3$fad1f1c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clay Taylor" <CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com>
To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>; "Leps-l"
<Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: Serious first, fun second.


> Ron -
>
> This "Birder's" response;
>
> In the first place "Audubon" has been dead for over a century, and he
made
> all his IDs over the barrel of a shotgun.
>
> The American Birding Association sets ethical codes for behavior while in
> the field, but there are NO standards for field identification except
those
> set by local and state birding organizations, and in the case of first
North
> American sightings, the American Ornithological Union. There are plenty
of
> bogus bird sightings that get reported - some are honest mistakes, and
> others are the result of poor judgment.  Many of the subsequent debates
are
> anything but gentle.
>
>  If you think that the birding community universally uses the same ID
> standards, your ignorance of the birding world matches our ignorance of
the
> entomological world.   I also reiterate my earlier comment that there are
> more than a few incorrectly identified pinned insect specimens as well as
> bird specimens in museums.
>
> Keep writing about skippers and your fieldwork - I learn a lot and don't
> have to get annoyed.
>
> Clay Taylor
> Moodus, CT
> ctaylor at att.net

Fair enough and aptly said ;-)   I shall go back under the porch where the
pups belong as I sure don't no nuttin bout no birdin.
Ron

PS    I thought he was still alive. (It would be great if I could just
leave this one liner as is -- but someone would think I was serious. I know
he died last year.)

RG


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Thu Jul 26 06:50:05 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:50:05 -0400
Subject: Toadstools
In-Reply-To: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn@mail.utexas.edu>
        "Re: Serious first, fun second." (Jul 25,  9:12pm)
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org> 
	<5.1.0.14.0.20010725210434.02ad0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <1010726065008.ZM3854@Gochfeld>

Chris chastized Ron:     Be sure to get a second opinion on the ID of 
those mushrooms before you eat them next time!
..............Chris


If you think there are controversies over leps, you should have read the 
heated exchange among some mycologists in the 1950's. Alexander Smith 
(author of several mushroom books) was accused of not being a real 
mycologist because he didn't eat the mushrooms he studied, while he 
accused those who did of being chronically under their influence. 

Les Short (AMNH Ornithologist) said he always tried to eat the birds he 
collected. 

Som do Monarchs really taste worse than Viceroys? I'm sure someone must 
have rendered a formal opinion. 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Thu Jul 26 07:11:48 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:11:48 -0400
Subject: Erynnis vs Sisters vs Admirals
In-Reply-To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle@tils-ttr.org>
        "Re: re, re,Yosemite" (Jul 26,  2:18am)
References: <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>  <3B5F40FA.60FB@saber.net> 
	<vmM77.7647$mO.103658@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com> 
	<3B5FA9E0.224@saber.net> 
	<01bf01c1159a$bca28940$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <1010726071151.ZM3854@Gochfeld>

Ron wrote: 
All this actually proves in Chuck's point that the only sure way for
_everyone_ to know is to have either a voucher specimen or photograph.

And gave as an example the common on Duskywings below: 

I would like to interject that there is a big difference betwee trying 
to be sure of the identification of Erynnis lucilius (Columbine 
Duskywing) and the Admiral-Sister (or many other superficially similar 
species).  Even the reliance on hosts can be uncertain. Harry Pavulaan 
once mentioned that Wild Indigo Duskywings (E. baptisiae) have been 
raised on Columbines. I certainly hope that E. lucilius doesn't use 
Crown Vetch since we assume that ALL duskywings seen around Crown Vetch 
(and there are often hundreds) are E. baptisiae. In my view this is an 
impossible field id (and also photo id), and may not be representative 
of other problem ids. 

The key to what Ron wrote is "everyone". I think that individual's can 
develop field ID skills that leave them with no doubt as Bob Thomas 
indicated.  I was afield once with Art Shapiro and was impressed that he 
id's everyting on the wing in that millisecond before he swung his net. 

And there was a time when even bird identifications weren't accepted 
unless "made over the barrel of a shotgun".

Mike Gochfeld
======================================================
Ron wrote: 

I recently posted a record on the carolina leps site for a new North
Carolina state record of Erynnis lucilius. I would not accept this one 
by the "word" of _anyone_ including myself. Which is why I 1) collected 
the specimen,  2) examined the genitalia, 3) compared it to figures of 
spread specimens in full view butterfly books, and 4) with reared 
individuals in my collection from West Virginia (reared by Tom Allen).  
Now, even with all this, I want to go back and find some more to make 
200% sure. (Of course in Yosmite one can not collect without a permit - 
but pictures are an option.)

RG

 
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From Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se  Thu Jul 26 08:06:11 2001
From: Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se (Niklas Wahlberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:06:11 +0200
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
In-Reply-To: <1010726065008.ZM3854@Gochfeld>
References: <"Chris J. Durden" <drdn@mail.utexas.edu>
 <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20010725210434.02ad0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010726135314.00b4b190@mail.it.su.se>

At 06:50 2001.07.26 -0400, Michael Gochfeld wrote:

>Som do Monarchs really taste worse than Viceroys? I'm sure someone must
>have rendered a formal opinion.
>
>Mike Gochfeld

Hi all,
     This reminds me of something that I've been thinking about for a long 
time. Are brightly coloured butterflies actually bad tasting? There have of 
course been some studies using birds as the innocent tasters, but such 
experiments require quite some infrastructure. What about the human sense 
of taste? Even if human taste is not quite representative of for example 
bird taste or even less representative of spider or predatory bug taste, 
wouldn't it give us some idea of the palatability of the butterflies? For 
instance, a colleague of mine recently told me that he tasted an adult 
Melitaea athalia (heath fritillary) just on the spur of the moment, and it 
apparently tasted really bitter and bad (in his own words "It is utterly 
and horribly bitter, like some relly BAD German liquor"). I've never 
gathered up the courage to taste my study subjects (the checkerspot 
butterflies), even though I assume they are bad tasting based on work done 
by Deane Bowers in the early '80s on a couple of species of Euphydryas. 
Perhaps I should start tasting?? Satyrines for instance are always assumed 
to be tasty to birds and they eat them with apparent relish in cages. But 
are they really tasty (or perhaps tasteless)? Has anybody on this list 
tasted any butterflies? If you have, I would be very interested to hear 
about your experience!

Cheers,
Niklas



Niklas Wahlberg
Department of Zoology
Stockholm University
S-106 91 Stockholm
SWEDEN

Phone: +46 8 164047
Fax:   +46 8 167715

http://www.zoologi.su.se/research/ihp/


 
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From kriegelr at msu.edu  Thu Jul 26 09:11:23 2001
From: kriegelr at msu.edu (Robert Kriegel)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:11:23 -0400
Subject: Serious first, fun second
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010726091123.00ee43c0@pilot.msu.edu>

Clay,

In your birder's response to Ron you wrote, "I also reiterate my earlier
comment that there are more than a few incorrectly identified pinned insect
specimens as well as
bird specimens in museums".

Yes, but those incorrect identifications can be corrected, even if the
taxonomy changes.  An erroneous visual ID will always be hearsay.  Score
one for independent verification : )

By necessity, insect collections whether they be personal or institutional,
are always in the act of becoming -- becoming prepared, becoming labeled,
becoming identified, becoming curated and most recently, becoming
databased.  One of the things I truly enjoy about aggregations of
lepidopterists is that whenever they get together they help each other
identify their material.  One of the differences between experts and
non-experts is that an expert knows when they cannot positively identify a
specimen themselves and who is the best expert to send it to to get a
positive ID.  Some experts can even tell you at a glance that they have
seen that species before but it hasn't been described yet.

So many bugs, so little time!

Bob Kriegel
Bath, MI

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Thu Jul 26 10:37:22 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:37:22 -0400
Subject: collections are in the act of ....
In-Reply-To: Robert Kriegel <kriegelr@msu.edu>
        "Re: Serious first, fun second" (Jul 26,  9:11am)
References: <3.0.3.32.20010726091123.00ee43c0@pilot.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <1010726103726.ZM3854@Gochfeld>

Rob Kriegel wrote.....

.....By necessity, insect collections whether they be personal or 
institutional, are always in the act of becoming -- becoming prepared, 
becoming labeled, becoming identified, becoming curated and most 
recently, becoming databased.  One of the things I truly enjoy about 
aggregations of lepidopterists is that whenever they get together they 
help each other identify their material.  One of the differences between 
experts and...


I can think of at least two more things that happen to collections 
besides being ...data based. 

They get eaten by moths and dermestids if not intensely curated and 
protected. 

They get dispersed when their owner dies or loses interest.  And perhaps 
in the future they get dispersed when their institution loses interest 
in the real reality. I've previously mentioned that Stanford gave away 
the David Starr Jordan fish collection (they probably would have sold it 
if Cal Academy hadn't taken it). Princeton got rid of its famous 
paleontology collection (fortunately Yale Peabody took it). After all 
real biologists needed that space.  Oberlin gave up its herbarium, and 
even Rutgers hasn't figured out how or even whether to permanently house 
its herbarium so it's been inaccessible for months. 

Collections aren't forever if there isn't committment (and some 
investment) in curating. 

[I hear that the same paragraph could have been written about art and 
anthropologic collections]. 

Just scan in that artefact and sell the original. 

Cynical, who me?

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Thu Jul 26 10:51:55 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:51:55 -0500
Subject: Erroneous Information by Experts
Message-ID: <20010726.095159.-174869.0.mbpi@juno.com>

Now that I'm "back in circulation," after dropping out to comply with
other more pressing butterfly-related endeavors,  I came across some
published faux pas that struck me as pretty poor editing for someone like
Robert Michael Pyle.  And this is NOT meant to be "an attack," but a
cautionary  observation that even the most proficient and well-known Yale
graduated PhDs CAN disseminate erroneous information, despite their
credentials (!)

In his book, "Handbook for Butterfly Watchers," there is a drawing of
five chrysalids, ALL of which are incorrectly IDed...no doubt, the result
of editing.  Likewise, in the Stokes book, "The Butterfly Guide," a
Viceroy chrysalis is misidentified as a "Red Spotted Purple..."  These
are both examples of books written for the general public...

Which just goes to show:  everyone is fallible, even the "experts." 
Nobody can "do it all" without making mistakes, as these examples
represent.  The best teacher is "personal experience and observation,"
which is why science is constantly "in flux" with new discoveries...be it
amateur or professional.  There is nothing "wrong" in questioning the
experts/professionals... it keeps them on their toes and forces them to
maintain their grounding in the reality of human fallibility.

We all need the input of others to keep things interesting and push us to
higher levels of understanding and knowledge...which should be a
life-long process.

Smug complacency is the "death" of our existence...challenge to our
presumptuous status quo is our "life force."

M.B. Prondzinski
________________________________________________________________
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From janature at compusmart.ab.ca  Thu Jul 26 11:35:51 2001
From: janature at compusmart.ab.ca (John Acorn)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:35:51 -0600
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <20010726153531Z30939-29467+86@mail.compusmart.ab.ca>

Butterfolk,

I almost hate to admit it, but here are my comments.  For me, it was
interesting to learn that not all of the antipredator toxins in a butterfly
are in its body.  I'll admit, I don't feel like eating the squishy parts. 
However, I'm not above eating a wing or two.  So, a few years back, I
started sampling the wings of butterflies that, for example, were
accidentally killed by the rim of my net.  The only species I tried that was
truly revulsive was the Mustard White (Pieris oleracea).  It's wings taste
the way a pentatomid stink bug smells.  The Cabbage White (P. rapae) has
none of this taste, in my experience, probably a consequence of its
cultivated foodplants here in Edmonton.  Most butterfly wings that I can
remember (P. rapae, Speyeria sp., Cercyonis pegala) taste a bit like oily
rice paper (not that I've ever tasted oily rice paper-- but at the time
that's the image that came to mind).  I do hope that this helps.

John Acorn

 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Thu Jul 26 12:46:03 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:46:03 -0500
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010726135314.00b4b190@mail.it.su.se>
References: <1010726065008.ZM3854@Gochfeld>
 <"Chris J. Durden" <drdn@mail.utexas.edu>
 <B78412EA.2396%aa6g@aa6g.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20010725210434.02ad0ec0@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010726113752.0300bec0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

I usually smell the butterflies I catch. Frequently there are androconial 
odors that can be recognized, remembered and compared between close 
species, and on occasion recognized before the insect is observed.
    There is also the blood odor of a pinched specimen. This can be quite 
strikingly different between closely related species such as *Speyeria 
zerene* s.l. and *Speyeria coronis* s.l. Even more remarkable is the blood 
smell of morphological intermediates between these two, suggesting that 
they may indeed be natural hybrids. Most of these observations were made in 
southern Montana.
    In Central and South America, different species of *Heliconius* have 
characteristic blood odors. This unfortunately is the limit of my chemical 
expertise.
..............Chris Durden

At 02:06 PM 7/26/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>At 06:50 2001.07.26 -0400, Michael Gochfeld wrote:
>
>>Som do Monarchs really taste worse than Viceroys? I'm sure someone must
>>have rendered a formal opinion.
>>
>>Mike Gochfeld
>
>Hi all,
>     This reminds me of something that I've been thinking about for a long 
> time. Are brightly coloured butterflies actually bad tasting? There have 
> of course been some studies using birds as the innocent tasters, but such 
> experiments require quite some infrastructure. What about the human sense 
> of taste? Even if human taste is not quite representative of for example 
> bird taste or even less representative of spider or predatory bug taste, 
> wouldn't it give us some idea of the palatability of the butterflies? For 
> instance, a colleague of mine recently told me that he tasted an adult 
> Melitaea athalia (heath fritillary) just on the spur of the moment, and 
> it apparently tasted really bitter and bad (in his own words "It is 
> utterly and horribly bitter, like some relly BAD German liquor"). I've 
> never gathered up the courage to taste my study subjects (the checkerspot 
> butterflies), even though I assume they are bad tasting based on work 
> done by Deane Bowers in the early '80s on a couple of species of 
> Euphydryas. Perhaps I should start tasting?? Satyrines for instance are 
> always assumed to be tasty to birds and they eat them with apparent 
> relish in cages. But are they really tasty (or perhaps tasteless)? Has 
> anybody on this list tasted any butterflies? If you have, I would be very 
> interested to hear about your experience!
>
>Cheers,
>Niklas
>
>
>
>Niklas Wahlberg
>Department of Zoology
>Stockholm University
>S-106 91 Stockholm
>SWEDEN
>
>Phone: +46 8 164047
>Fax:   +46 8 167715
>
>http://www.zoologi.su.se/research/ihp/
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Thu Jul 26 14:13:30 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:13:30 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
References: <20010726153531Z30939-29467+86@mail.compusmart.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <004401c115fe$ace8d0e0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Butterfolk.... Now that is a lot better that lepers, don't you think? Any
way. Before everyone rushes out to chew the fat, I would encourage anyone
who has allergies to be careful. The birds that throw up after ingesting
monarchs do that for a reason - it is more than not tasting good - they are
"toxic".

I have every now and then caught a butterfly (big or small) that I did not
want to kill but just examine. Then just after netting it or just getting
it out of the net saw another that I either wanted to collect or examine
too.  Not having three hands, I have employed my lips to ever so gently
hold the specimen by the hard margin (costal) of its wings while dealing
with the other specimen(s). This year I have been examining a lot of Tiger
Swallowtails in the NC mountains to gather field info on the undescribed
entity there for those who are working on it. On one occasion, almost
immediately after releasing an undescribed from my mouth, I noticed a mild
irritation in my throat. This lasted for several hours. I assumed I had
breathed in a few of its scales.

As a person who has to take some type of antihistamine every time before I
do into the field (or at the end of the day have massive sinus/headache
problems) There was something about or on the wings of this Tiger that my
throat did not like.
Ron

PS  Here is an example of where a common name (Tiger) is the only one
available as the scientific individual epithet has not been given. Ditto
for Cherry Gaul Azure.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Acorn" <janature at compusmart.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Tasting butterflies


> Butterfolk,
>
> I almost hate to admit it, but here are my comments.  For me, it was
> interesting to learn that not all of the antipredator toxins in a
butterfly
> are in its body.  I'll admit, I don't feel like eating the squishy parts.
> However, I'm not above eating a wing or two.  So, a few years back, I
> started sampling the wings of butterflies that, for example, were
> accidentally killed by the rim of my net.  The only species I tried that
was
> truly revulsive was the Mustard White (Pieris oleracea).  It's wings
taste
> the way a pentatomid stink bug smells.  The Cabbage White (P. rapae) has
> none of this taste, in my experience, probably a consequence of its
> cultivated foodplants here in Edmonton.  Most butterfly wings that I can
> remember (P. rapae, Speyeria sp., Cercyonis pegala) taste a bit like oily
> rice paper (not that I've ever tasted oily rice paper-- but at the time
> that's the image that came to mind).  I do hope that this helps.
>
> John Acorn
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
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From bugzoo at netvision.net.il  Thu Jul 26 14:07:06 2001
From: bugzoo at netvision.net.il (ilan ben yosef)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:07:06 +0200
Subject: african monarchs overwintering?
Message-ID: <3B605C4A.632B4AE2@netvision.net.il>

I would like to have overwintering for my african monarchs.(they can't
pass the winter) is it posible?


 
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From bugzoo at netvision.net.il  Thu Jul 26 14:03:58 2001
From: bugzoo at netvision.net.il (ilan ben yosef)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:03:58 +0200
Subject: pradetor larvas
Message-ID: <3B605B8E.79F5CBD2@netvision.net.il>

I rase african monarch in free flight cage. I had an invasion of
Spodoptera littoralis (Noctuidae), consider to be 1 of the most hard
pest in Israel. when the monarch larvas pupated, still soft, the S.
littoralis larvas of all stages eat them. they became carnivours. is any
one know of similar observations?


 
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From rbenavid at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 26 15:36:16 2001
From: rbenavid at hotmail.com (Rudy Benavides)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:36:16 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <F76hVOJwnzsLqIfQdmE000082a4@hotmail.com>

Have you ever eaten larvae?  If you have watched the tv program _Insectia_ 
with Canadian entomologist Georges Brossard, you may recall the episode he 
did on the Aegiale hesperiaris skippers in Mexico.  The larvae, found at the 
base of yucca and agave plants, are added to the individual bottles of 
Mescal to provide its distinctive flavor.  But indigenous people in Mexico 
also gather the caterpillars, deep fry them, and then season with their 
flavorful spicy sauces.  In that particular television  episode, Georges was 
seen helping his host dig out handfuls of the caterpillars at the base of a 
yucca plant (?), then  showing how they were cooked, and finally helping 
himself to a plateful....yumm.  I can still hear him in his distinctive 
French Candaian accent saying....."ah, there ees notheeng more finer than a 
plate of theese delicious gusanos de Maguey".....or sometheeng like that.

Rudy/Maryland

p.s. Brossard is the founder of the Montreal Insectarium, and the last i 
heard was that he was also involved in creating one for Audobon in New 
Orleans.

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From rbenavid at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 26 16:04:01 2001
From: rbenavid at hotmail.com (Rudy Benavides)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:04:01 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <F138yh133tYwlib4g3S000099ee@hotmail.com>

I meant to include Georges Brossard's website
http://www.insectia.com/fr/
in my last post.

Rudy/MD



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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Thu Jul 26 17:02:43 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:02:43 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AE1@NTFS2>

Rudy,

This reminds of Big Jean Beliveau stating that "...VEE GADDE NOOO ROOKEEE,
BEEELEEE HEEKEEE" in 1960, and also this classic from Jacques Lemaire after
he scored the overtime goal in Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Finals in 1970 (he
was, I think ) a roookeee himself: "WELL, MY AART SHEEE POUND WEN I STEP ON
DA HICE, BUT AFTER KOPPAL MINITS SHEEE DON POND SO WARY MUCH. DEN I SKATE
DOWN DA HICE, TAKE DA PASS FROM [Dickie] DUFF, POOT ER IN DA NET, WE WIN DA
GAME, ITS A GOOOD GOAL..."

Or, one more, this one by the Detroit Red Wings' coach Jacques Demers in
1987 about two weeks after he took over the team which had previously
floundered hopelessly and totally without discipline in last place. It seems
that a veteran defenceman had made a careless mistake in the last minute of
the third period in a tie game, gave up a goal and the Wings lost the game.
Everyone was "used to it". Demers, when asked whether the player would have
a chance to think about his mistake, said something like this:

"Oh, yah, eeee gonna tink about it a lot, eeee gonna ava lotta time to tink
about it wen eeee wake up tomorro mornin in Peoria."

Understand, I grew up in Canada watching "Hockey Night in Canada"  (or
"Ockee Night" in Montreal). I have multitudes of these kinds of memoirs.

Alex 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Rudy Benavides [SMTP:rbenavid at hotmail.com]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:36 PM
> To:	Leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	Re: Tasting butterflies
> 
> Have you ever eaten larvae?  If you have watched the tv program _Insectia_
> 
> with Canadian entomologist Georges Brossard, you may recall the episode he
> 
> did on the Aegiale hesperiaris skippers in Mexico.  The larvae, found at
> the 
> base of yucca and agave plants, are added to the individual bottles of 
> Mescal to provide its distinctive flavor.  But indigenous people in Mexico
> 
> also gather the caterpillars, deep fry them, and then season with their 
> flavorful spicy sauces.  In that particular television  episode, Georges
> was 
> seen helping his host dig out handfuls of the caterpillars at the base of
> a 
> yucca plant (?), then  showing how they were cooked, and finally helping 
> himself to a plateful....yumm.  I can still hear him in his distinctive 
> French Candaian accent saying....."ah, there ees notheeng more finer than
> a 
> plate of theese delicious gusanos de Maguey".....or sometheeng like that.
> 
> Rudy/Maryland
> 
> p.s. Brossard is the founder of the Montreal Insectarium, and the last i 
> heard was that he was also involved in creating one for Audobon in New 
> Orleans.
> 
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From spruance at infinet.com  Thu Jul 26 17:22:17 2001
From: spruance at infinet.com (Eric or Pat Metzler)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:22:17 -0400
Subject: Rare or Threatened and relative abundance status
References: <3b5ec9b4$0$62148$ac966d11@news.raex.com>, <5.1.0.14.0.20010725205315.02ace760@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <3b608be5$0$88189$ac966d11@news.raex.com>

Chris,

I'm not sure about the word scarce.  As for moths, my forte, we don't know
enough to know if they are really rare or not anyway, so the phrase
infrequently seen is accurate as well avoiding all legal trappings (pun
intended).

Why don't you try your words out on some friends and see what kind of
reactions you get.  In the past couple of years I've told many friends about
my avoidance of the word rare.  I get mixed reactions from incredulity to
might work.

And some of my co-authors like the word rare.  When I'm junior author, the
word rare is sometimes still used.  I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Cheers,

Eric

"Chris J. Durden" <drdn at mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:5.1.0.14.0.20010725205315.02ace760 at pop3.norton.antivirus...
> Is it safe to use "scarce" for a resident species that is infrequently
> found, or does this word also have another definition in legal or
> specialized jargon?
>    From now on I shall limit my use of "rare" to "var.s" and "ab.s" like
> the melanic *Speyeria* from BC that was shown us recently.
>
> At 09:17 AM 7/25/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >Dear Vratislav Richard Eugene Maria John Baptist
> >
> >Your questions are excellent, and deserve full exploration by us and all
> >field bioloists.
> >
> >I offer one caveat to Michael Gochfeld's highly informative and very
> >accurate answer.  He's absolutely correct about the definitions.  In many
> >cases the distinctions drawn by Goldfeld do not exist.  There are two
views,
> >the academic, and the view practiced in the field.  The views practiced
in
> >the field, unfortunately, blur the distinctions he offers.
>
>
>
>
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Thu Jul 26 17:56:34 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:56:34 -0400
Subject: USGS Butterfly/Moth Sites
References: <17.1904a1da.2890f1c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B609212.1FCA@mb.sympatico.ca>

Isn't Paul Opler one of the authors of the USGS Lep site?

Peace,
Xi Wang

Citheronia at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I was wondering who I would contact to send lists of Leps found in
> areas that
> I have collected, and yet are not said to be located in these counties
> on the
> USGS Butterfly/moth sites. There are many, many of these species, so I
> would
> like to help in updating the maps on these sites.
> 
> Thank you,
> Randy Lyttle
> Citheronia at aol.com

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Thu Jul 26 18:15:56 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:15:56 -0400
Subject: Butterflies tasting
Message-ID: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

As far as I know, the tasting organs for most, if not all, leps is
located on their legs.  So, when a female wants to oviposit her eggs on
the correct host plant(s), how does she go about locating them?  Can she
also 'smell' the plants with her antennae or something?  

TIA,
Xi Wang

P.S.  It has just occured to me that over the years I've heard many
different pronounciations of 'ae'.  Some use a long a sound, while
others pronounce it like the i in pile.  Is there a correct
pronounciation?  I took a latin course several years ago (when I was in
grade 9), and I think people who spoke classical latin used the latter
pronounciation, but that seems not to be the pronounciation of choice
these days.  And while on the subject, just how are amateurs like myself
supposed to learn correct/popular pronounciations anyway?  I mean, you
see latin names in print all the time, but rarely will you hear it
actually spoken by professionals.  Just how is one supposed to pronounce
something that ends in 'ceae'?

 
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From rbenavid at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 26 20:40:56 2001
From: rbenavid at hotmail.com (Rudy Benavides)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:40:56 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <F499vXsFFsAitVGeSJI00005f78@hotmail.com>

Alex Grkovich wrote..
>
>This reminds of Big Jean Beliveau stating that "...VEE GADDE NOOO ROOKEEE,
>BEEELEEE HEEKEEE" in 1960, and also this classic from Jacques Lemaire after
>he scored the overtime goal in Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Finals in 1970 (he
>was, I think ) a roookeee himself: "WELL, MY AART SHEEE POUND WEN I STEP ON
>DA HICE, BUT AFTER KOPPAL MINITS SHEEE DON POND SO WARY MUCH. DEN I SKATE
>DOWN DA HICE, TAKE DA PASS FROM [Dickie] DUFF, POOT ER IN DA NET, WE WIN DA
>GAME, ITS A GOOOD GOAL..."

GOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!  Sorry, got carried away reading your post.
Love the accents.....and the Insectia show.  But you know, there are an 
awful lot of good nature shows that are made in Canada (and of course I 
include in that our friend John Acorn's Nature Nut series...terrific).  I 
don't watch much tv, but I do enjoy those very much.

Cheers,

Rudy/MD

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From conlan at adnc.com  Thu Jul 26 20:55:08 2001
From: conlan at adnc.com (Chris Conlan)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:55:08 -0800
Subject: pradetor larvas
Message-ID: <200107270120.SAA00359@barley.adnc.com>

There are many species of Lepidoptera that will cannibalize their own 
brothers as well as larva of other species.  I see this all the time in our
lab where we have Helicoverpa zea and Heliothis virescens.  It is common to
see them escape from their containers and break into other containers
housing other species and eat them.  They will eat just about anything they
can get their greedy little jaws around!  I have also seen Spodoptera and
Agrotis cannibalize the cadavers of their dead brothers and once in awhile
they will go after a freshly molted larva or pupa as well.

Chris

----------
From: ilan ben yosef <bugzoo at netvision.net.il>
To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
Subject: pradetor larvas
Date: Thu, Jul 26, 2001, 10:03 AM


I rase african monarch in free flight cage. I had an invasion of
Spodoptera littoralis (Noctuidae), consider to be 1 of the most hard
pest in Israel. when the monarch larvas pupated, still soft, the S.
littoralis larvas of all stages eat them. they became carnivours. is any
one know of similar observations?



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From glaeske.md at sk.sympatico.ca  Thu Jul 26 22:59:31 2001
From: glaeske.md at sk.sympatico.ca (Dr. Daniel Glaeske)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:59:31 -0500
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010726135314.00b4b190@mail.it.su.se>
Message-ID: <NBBBJJHMEOELLHEPKBJPIEMDCCAA.glaeske.md@sk.sympatico.ca>

My two-year old daughter was happily munching on potato chips when she
picked a moribund but still living Phyciodes tharos.  She lost of track of
which hand had the chip and at the buttefly in stead.  She came to her
grandfather with bits of butterfly wing still on her leps with no obvious
reaction.

Daniel Glaeske
St. Victor, SK

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On
Behalf Of Niklas Wahlberg
Sent: July 26, 2001 6:06 AM
To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
Subject: Tasting butterflies?


At 06:50 2001.07.26 -0400, Michael Gochfeld wrote:

>Som do Monarchs really taste worse than Viceroys? I'm sure someone must
>have rendered a formal opinion.
>
>Mike Gochfeld

Hi all,
     This reminds me of something that I've been thinking about for a long
time. Are brightly coloured butterflies actually bad tasting? There have of
course been some studies using birds as the innocent tasters, but such
experiments require quite some infrastructure. What about the human sense
of taste? Even if human taste is not quite representative of for example
bird taste or even less representative of spider or predatory bug taste,
wouldn't it give us some idea of the palatability of the butterflies? For
instance, a colleague of mine recently told me that he tasted an adult
Melitaea athalia (heath fritillary) just on the spur of the moment, and it
apparently tasted really bitter and bad (in his own words "It is utterly
and horribly bitter, like some relly BAD German liquor"). I've never
gathered up the courage to taste my study subjects (the checkerspot
butterflies), even though I assume they are bad tasting based on work done
by Deane Bowers in the early '80s on a couple of species of Euphydryas.
Perhaps I should start tasting?? Satyrines for instance are always assumed
to be tasty to birds and they eat them with apparent relish in cages. But
are they really tasty (or perhaps tasteless)? Has anybody on this list
tasted any butterflies? If you have, I would be very interested to hear
about your experience!

Cheers,
Niklas



Niklas Wahlberg
Department of Zoology
Stockholm University
S-106 91 Stockholm
SWEDEN

Phone: +46 8 164047
Fax:   +46 8 167715

http://www.zoologi.su.se/research/ihp/



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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 27 01:22:41 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:22:41 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>


> P.S.  It has just occured to me that over the years I've heard many
> different pronounciations of 'ae'.  Some use a long a sound, while
> others pronounce it like the i in pile.  Is there a correct
> pronounciation?  I took a latin course several years ago (when I was in
> grade 9), and I think people who spoke classical latin used the latter
> pronounciation, but that seems not to be the pronounciation of choice
> these days.  And while on the subject, just how are amateurs like myself
> supposed to learn correct/popular pronounciations anyway?  I mean, you
> see latin names in print all the time, but rarely will you hear it
> actually spoken by professionals.  Just how is one supposed to pronounce
> something that ends in 'ceae'?
>

It is interesting to hear how lepidopterists pronounce names differently
when they get together. I suppose that with the increased usage of common
names the correct (technical) ones are not heard to much any more.

Many years ago I had the privilege of meeting and spending some time in the
field with Dr A. E. Brower. His son lived in Savannah GA and was a friend
of my friend Dr. R. T. Arbogast. Brower was one of the top moth experts in
the country. He wrote the 1968 updated version of Holland's classic Moth
Book. Brower came up here to Charleston for day of collecting while on a
visit to his son in Savannah (Brower was a resident of Maine). He was
especially interested in a spot where I had found some Underwing Moths -
Catocala. This genus was one of his specialties. Now Brower was well up in
years when we met and I was immediately taken by the trouble I had keeping
up with him - he walked at a joggers pace.

Before I met Dr. Brower,  and afterward, I had/have only heard Catocala
pronounce as - Ka tock a la. -  Brower pronounced it Cat o call a .  We had
corresponded before we met and "Catocala" was of course written by him in
his letters - but I pronounced it my way as I read it.  That day in the
field he immediately corrected me and said,   "it is Cat o call a
not Ka tock a la."  My suspicion all these years is that his pronunciation
is the correct one and all  the rest of us have it wrong. If I recall he
was near 80 when we met. I never heard him use a common name and when we
corresponded and exchanged specimens he also only used the
scientific names for butterflies and moths. I am sure if I go back and dig
out the old letters from Clench, dos Passos, Gray & others we rarely (if
ever) used
common names in our letters. How times have changed in the last 30 years.

I pronounce ae as a hard A as in ate.

Ron


 
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From Sumairp at lycos.com  Fri Jul 27 06:05:05 2001
From: Sumairp at lycos.com (Who?  Me?)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:05:05 GMT
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010726135314.00b4b190@mail.it.su.se>, <NBBBJJHMEOELLHEPKBJPIEMDCCAA.glaeske.md@sk.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3b6135ed.15043120@news.eaa.com.au>

On 26 Jul 2001 21:18:23 -0700, glaeske.md at sk.sympatico.ca (Dr. Daniel
Glaeske) wrote:

>are they really tasty (or perhaps tasteless)? Has anybody on this list
>tasted any butterflies? If you have, I would be very interested to hear
>about your experience!

A few years ago I had to expedite the relaxing of a batch of
Ornithoptera (birdwings), prior to setting. As time was short, instead
of relaxing them for a day or so, I started to inject them with hot
water.

Hot water was placed in a coffee mug, water then drawn up into the
syringe, needle attached, hold the specimen over the mug & insert the
needle into the  "chest" of the thorax and commence injecting.

Excess water then flows from the body orifices and drops down into the
mug. Repeat a few times until the wings start to relax, refilling the
syringe for each specimen (10cc's).

Very simple & straightforward . . . . . except I do tend to be a bit
oblivious to my surroundings when in deep concentration, for I was
also sipping my coffee from a mug identical to that in which the hot
water was held.

Yes, you're right, while momentarily distracted,  I picked up the
wrong mug & took a rather large sip! Oooh yuk, ftpooee. Birdwing Soup!
It will never make the Menu, I can assure you. Tastes like p*ss!

Cheers,
Chris Hocking

May all your Xochiquetzalpapalotl emerge safely!



 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Fri Jul 27 06:22:55 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 06:22:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010726135314.00b4b190@mail.it.su.se>
Message-ID: <29079-3B6140FF-193@storefull-126.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

I have noticed that monarchs have a strong odor, but never tasted one. 


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Fri Jul 27 11:45:17 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:45:17 -0500
Subject: Eating Leps
Message-ID: <20010727.104520.-168899.1.mbpi@juno.com>

Hi all,

I can't imagine why the wings of butterflies are the preferred choice of
human experimental consumption...  Even other insects go for the meatie
bodies, not the wings (!)  The wings are comprised of hairs and
membranes, and I don't know ANY human being that relishes stray mammalian
hairs found in their meals.  It's the body that posesses the major
nutritional components of the insect, not the wings.  Who in their right
mind would want to ingest a "hairy membrane?"  Methinks this bespeaks of
a correlation of butterfly wings with flower petals and "candied violets"
as opposed to their actual imbued composition.

I recently had a child challenge me to eat a chrysalis.  I told him I'd
do it if he could bet me a $100 to do so...  Naturally, he balked.  But
I'm still open to the bet!!!!  I'd be willing to sample anything in the
brassicus or fruit-tree raised butterfly species...but only their bodies,
not their wings.  I've eaten Escargot and sauteed, newly emerged Cicadas
(which tasted like freshly "cut grass" to my discerning palate...), so
I'm open to "unusual culinary experiences."

As for the debate on Latin pronunciation:  I studied classical Latin in
high school, also "just a few years ago..." (tee-hee), and I was taught
the pronunciation for "ae" was a long "i."  However, when I studied
systematics in college, the "ae" was pronounced like a long "e" in every
class I took, regardless of who was teaching it.  Anything ending in an
"eae" was pronounced like TWO long "e's."  Go figure!

Mary Beth Prondzinski
________________________________________________________________
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From janature at compusmart.ab.ca  Fri Jul 27 12:34:58 2001
From: janature at compusmart.ab.ca (John Acorn)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:34:58 -0600
Subject: Eating Leps
Message-ID: <20010727163424Z28989-3112+5067@mail.compusmart.ab.ca>

Ary Beth, and other Butterfolk,

Predators, in their quest for butterfly meat, often get only a mouthful of
wings.  Thus, the wings can serve an antipredator function if they contain
toxins.

As for Latin, there are many systems for Latin pronunciation, and they do
not all agree on things like "ae."  This, in part, is why biologists in
general, and the ICZN in particular, do not endorse any one system.

John Acorn
----------
>From: mbpi at juno.com
>To: LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu
>Subject: Re:  Eating Leps
>Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001, 9:45 AM
>

>Hi all,
>
>I can't imagine why the wings of butterflies are the preferred choice of
>human experimental consumption...  Even other insects go for the meatie
>bodies, not the wings (!)  The wings are comprised of hairs and
>membranes, and I don't know ANY human being that relishes stray mammalian
>hairs found in their meals.  It's the body that posesses the major
>nutritional components of the insect, not the wings.  Who in their right
>mind would want to ingest a "hairy membrane?"  Methinks this bespeaks of
>a correlation of butterfly wings with flower petals and "candied violets"
>as opposed to their actual imbued composition.
>
>I recently had a child challenge me to eat a chrysalis.  I told him I'd
>do it if he could bet me a $100 to do so...  Naturally, he balked.  But
>I'm still open to the bet!!!!  I'd be willing to sample anything in the
>brassicus or fruit-tree raised butterfly species...but only their bodies,
>not their wings.  I've eaten Escargot and sauteed, newly emerged Cicadas
>(which tasted like freshly "cut grass" to my discerning palate...), so
>I'm open to "unusual culinary experiences."
>
>As for the debate on Latin pronunciation:  I studied classical Latin in
>high school, also "just a few years ago..." (tee-hee), and I was taught
>the pronunciation for "ae" was a long "i."  However, when I studied
>systematics in college, the "ae" was pronounced like a long "e" in every
>class I took, regardless of who was teaching it.  Anything ending in an
>"eae" was pronounced like TWO long "e's."  Go figure!
>
>Mary Beth Prondzinski
>________________________________________________________________
>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
>Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> 
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From mothman at belizemail.net  Fri Jul 27 14:38:31 2001
From: mothman at belizemail.net (Matthew Barnes)
Date: 27 Jul 2001 11:38:31 -0700
Subject: unknown neotropical moth(s)
Message-ID: <b07b7bcd.0107271038.32774fdc@posting.google.com>

I'm not often completely stumped by a moth nowadays, but these two
have me mystified.  One is from Jamaica and the other is from Belize -
if they are not the same species they are certainly closely related. 
They can be seen at http://www.tropicalmoths.org/images7/mysterymoths.jpg

I'd be grateful for any ideas as to their identity.

Many thanks

Matthew Barnes
mothman at belizemail.net

 
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From monarch at saber.net  Fri Jul 27 15:20:53 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 12:20:53 -0700
Subject: Eating Leps or their host plants could be worse than drinking a little diluted insecticide
References: <20010727.104520.-168899.1.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3B61BF15.4050@saber.net>

mbpi at juno.com wrote:

> I've eaten Escargot and sauteed, newly emerged Cicadas
> (which tasted like freshly "cut grass" to my discerning palate...), so
> I'm open to "unusual culinary experiences."

In the last two days I've received the following two e-mails about
severe toxic eye reactions of three different people who handled 
milkweed plants or monarch butterfly chrysalids (names of the blinded 
people have been witheld for privacy reasons). Now imagine what could have 
happened if they had eaten the milkweed leaves or monarch chrysalids!

Hi Paul,

I, too, have had terrible problems with milkweed and my eyes.  Last year one 
of my eyes was swollen shut for three days.  It gradually stopped burning and 
returned to normal.  I wear gloves or wash about a hundred times a day!! 
I can handle pupae and my eyes start to itch and I know if I touch my eyes I've had
it!  Now, my husband is a different story.  He was in the greenhouse 
cutting when it happened.  Some of the sap flipped up into his eye. 
Direct hit, undiluted sap.  It's going on two weeks of lost vision.  The
redness is better on the white of his eye and the cornea is almost grown 
completely back.  But the swelling they can't get to go down is causing 
loss of vision.  The eye specialists are shaking their heads and won't even 
comment.  They don't know anything about milkweed, of course.

==================================================

Hi Paul,

I've gotten milkweed in my eye dozens of times, and it is awful.  Each time, 
I nearly lose my vision for about 2 days...everything looks as though I'm seeing 
through a cloud of steam.  I always recover, but I always worry if I'm doing 
permanent damage. Even if I am very careful not to touch my eyes and wash 
my hands when handling milkweed, I may still get this vision thing every few 
weeks.I suspect it can come even from opening a box of caterpillars that is 
warm and somewhat humid...the fumes of the milkweed hitting the eyes.

 
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From mothman at belizemail.net  Fri Jul 27 14:49:05 2001
From: mothman at belizemail.net (Matthew Barnes)
Date: 27 Jul 2001 11:49:05 -0700
Subject: unknown neotropical moth(s) - URL correction
Message-ID: <b07b7bcd.0107271049.19d958f1@posting.google.com>

The correct URL to locate the two unknown neotropical moths is
http://members.fortunecity.com/belizemoths/images7/mysterymoths.jpg

Apologies

Matthew Barnes
mothman at belizemail.net

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 27 16:10:09 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:10:09 -0400
Subject: Eating Leps
References: <20010727.104520.-168899.1.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c116d8$23a2bfa0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: <mbpi at juno.com>
To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Eating Leps


many hairy snips

> As for the debate on Latin pronunciation:  I studied classical Latin in
> high school, also "just a few years ago..." (tee-hee), and I was taught
> the pronunciation for "ae" was a long "i."  However, when I studied
> systematics in college, the "ae" was pronounced like a long "e" in every
> class I took, regardless of who was teaching it.  Anything ending in an
> "eae" was pronounced like TWO long "e's."  Go figure!
>
> Mary Beth Prondzinski
>

I have heard that the "ae" at the beginning of a word is pronounced long
"e" but at the end long "a"?  But what I really want to know is why all the
common names are pronounced so differently in Boston?

By the way, old Charlestonian pronunciations are very similar to that of
old Boston. When I move here over 30 years ago it was heard a lot - it is
now a disappearing dialect. For example "beer" is pronounced the exact same
way Charleston  and Boston. Out and about in old money downtown Charleston
is oot and aboot.

Ron

PS    It must be raining a lot of other places too, or we are not getting
out butter around much.


 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 27 16:22:20 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:22:20 -0400
Subject: unknown neotropical moth(s)
References: <b07b7bcd.0107271038.32774fdc@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c116d9$d6ca9700$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

I could not get the URL to work for me. We have some tropical moth links
listed on our TILS web site. I know there is one for Belize for sure. Have
you tried the moths of Belize site?  If not, hit    http://tils-ttr.org
and check the links section -it is pretty comprehensive and also has some
not often found ones.
Ron

PS  I think I'll post this to the group too as some may not have checked
out that links section yet. We also post some temporary ones there too. For
example the Montreal Insect Show link is there. It is at the top of
individual butterfly sites section.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Barnes" <mothman at belizemail.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: unknown neotropical moth(s)


> I'm not often completely stumped by a moth nowadays, but these two
> have me mystified.  One is from Jamaica and the other is from Belize -
> if they are not the same species they are certainly closely related.
> They can be seen at http://www.tropicalmoths.org/images7/mysterymoths.jpg
>
> I'd be grateful for any ideas as to their identity.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Matthew Barnes
> mothman at belizemail.net
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
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From rjparcelles at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 27 16:22:16 2001
From: rjparcelles at yahoo.com (Bob Parcelles,Jr.)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
In-Reply-To: <29079-3B6140FF-193@storefull-126.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <20010727202216.25522.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>


--- sebrez at webtv.net wrote:
> I have noticed that monarchs have a strong odor, but never
> tasted one. 
> 
> 
>          
> mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     
---------------------------------------------------------------
GREETINGS:-)

IF YOU DO YOU WILL BE SORRY! 

Bob Parcelles, Jr.
Pinellas Park, FL


=====
Bob Parcelles, Jr
Pinellas Park, FL
rjparcelles at yahoo.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri
http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876
 "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
                       --William Shakespeare

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 27 16:27:14 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:27:14 -0400
Subject: unknown neotropical moth(s) - URL correction
References: <b07b7bcd.0107271049.19d958f1@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c116da$8676d1a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Barnes" <mothman at belizemail.net>

It would also help if I would take the time to read the senders mail
address. Especially since I see I recommended you to your own web site.
:-)
Ron


 
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From rjparcelles at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 27 16:27:30 2001
From: rjparcelles at yahoo.com (Bob Parcelles,Jr.)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Eating Leps or their host plants could be worse than drinking a little diluted insecticide
In-Reply-To: <3B61BF15.4050@saber.net>
Message-ID: <20010727202730.26044.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Paul Cherubini <monarch at saber.net> wrote:
> mbpi at juno.com wrote:
> 
> > I've eaten Escargot and sauteed, newly emerged Cicadas
> > (which tasted like freshly "cut grass" to my discerning
> palate...), so
> > I'm open to "unusual culinary experiences."
> 
> In the last two days I've received the following two e-mails
> about
> severe toxic eye reactions of three different people who
> handled 
> milkweed plants or monarch butterfly chrysalids (names of the
> blinded 
> people have been witheld for privacy reasons). Now imagine
> what could have 
> happened if they had eaten the milkweed leaves or monarch
> chrysalids!
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Paul,

I suggest we stamp out milkweed and these horrible tasting
leps. I am sue you could recomend the proper pesticides. Or
perhaps we could all follow Socrates and drink hemlock.

Distastfully yours,

Bob

=====
Bob Parcelles, Jr
Pinellas Park, FL
rjparcelles at yahoo.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri
http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876
 "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
                       --William Shakespeare

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

 
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From eric.w.hossler at vanderbilt.edu  Fri Jul 27 16:37:17 2001
From: eric.w.hossler at vanderbilt.edu (hossleew)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:37:17 -0500
Subject: pronunciations
Message-ID: <3B61FE6C@webgate1.mail.vanderbilt.edu>

Classical Latin, as I was taught in college by professors who persisted in 
exactness, pronounces all C's hard and sounds the same as our "K". "AE" is 
always pronounced like the letter "I", so to answer your question "ceae" 
sounds like "kay-eye."

Then again, in the two thousand plus years since Latin came about, I am sure 
that much has been changed or lost. For example, I hear they teach Latin 
pronunciation slightly differently in England.

Eric Hossler
BS Classics, Class of '01


>===== Original Message From "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org> =====
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
>
>
>> P.S.  It has just occured to me that over the years I've heard many
>> different pronounciations of 'ae'.  Some use a long a sound, while
>> others pronounce it like the i in pile.  Is there a correct
>> pronounciation?  I took a latin course several years ago (when I was in
>> grade 9), and I think people who spoke classical latin used the latter
>> pronounciation, but that seems not to be the pronounciation of choice
>> these days.  And while on the subject, just how are amateurs like myself
>> supposed to learn correct/popular pronounciations anyway?  I mean, you
>> see latin names in print all the time, but rarely will you hear it
>> actually spoken by professionals.  Just how is one supposed to pronounce
>> something that ends in 'ceae'?
>>
>
>It is interesting to hear how lepidopterists pronounce names differently
>when they get together. I suppose that with the increased usage of common
>names the correct (technical) ones are not heard to much any more.
>
>Many years ago I had the privilege of meeting and spending some time in the
>field with Dr A. E. Brower. His son lived in Savannah GA and was a friend
>of my friend Dr. R. T. Arbogast. Brower was one of the top moth experts in
>the country. He wrote the 1968 updated version of Holland's classic Moth
>Book. Brower came up here to Charleston for day of collecting while on a
>visit to his son in Savannah (Brower was a resident of Maine). He was
>especially interested in a spot where I had found some Underwing Moths -
>Catocala. This genus was one of his specialties. Now Brower was well up in
>years when we met and I was immediately taken by the trouble I had keeping
>up with him - he walked at a joggers pace.
>
>Before I met Dr. Brower,  and afterward, I had/have only heard Catocala
>pronounce as - Ka tock a la. -  Brower pronounced it Cat o call a .  We had
>corresponded before we met and "Catocala" was of course written by him in
>his letters - but I pronounced it my way as I read it.  That day in the
>field he immediately corrected me and said,   "it is Cat o call a
>not Ka tock a la."  My suspicion all these years is that his pronunciation
>is the correct one and all  the rest of us have it wrong. If I recall he
>was near 80 when we met. I never heard him use a common name and when we
>corresponded and exchanged specimens he also only used the
>scientific names for butterflies and moths. I am sure if I go back and dig
>out the old letters from Clench, dos Passos, Gray & others we rarely (if
>ever) used
>common names in our letters. How times have changed in the last 30 years.
>
>I pronounce ae as a hard A as in ate.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
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From jdillonaire at rcn.com  Fri Jul 27 17:34:32 2001
From: jdillonaire at rcn.com (Jane Dillonaire)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:34:32 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>, <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>

According to Borror (in _Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms_), the
diphthong "ae" is pronounced as a long e - like in "Pete".  By the way, I
find this book indispensable.  Knowing the meaning of the roots helps me to
remember the species as well as the scientific name.



 
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 27 18:10:52 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:10:52 -0600
Subject: How many butterflies crossed the road?
Message-ID: <000901c116e9$15c975c0$4c62a58e@allez123>

Given that I was driving at 75 kilometres an hour for 25 miles as 75 leps
lept across the road,  how many leps could I estimate to be in that area if
I knew that it was cropland 25 miles to the east and 20 miles to the west.
(Yes, I was going in a north/south direction.)

What would I dare to infer over and above the fact that 5 leps now graced
the front of my vehicle leaving 70 to have continued to fly on somewhere.

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3




 
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From Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk  Fri Jul 27 15:32:16 2001
From: Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk (Neil Jones)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 01 19:32:16 GMT
Subject: Trinidad info
Message-ID: <996262336snz@nwjones.demon.co.uk>

I have been contacted by a friend who is going on a trip to 
Trinidad. He wants to know what identification guides are available
or if there are any particularly good places to visit.

Does any one have any good information?

-- 
Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve


 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Fri Jul 27 19:14:09 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:14:09 -0500
Subject: pronunciations
In-Reply-To: <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>
 <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010727180602.00a97a50@b.pop.kiva.net>

When I listen to plant people, they seem to pronounce "eae" as "ee-ee".   Thus
Ericaceae (the heather family) becomes  ERR - ih - CAY - see - ee.

But then I pronounce antennae "an - TEN - eye", with a long i.  Thus I can 
be assured of being wrong at least half the time.  :-)

I vote for having different pronunciations for animals and plants, on the 
grounds that there is no linguistically complicated situation that can't be 
fixed by making it even more complicated. :-)

Seriously, my understanding is that there is no longer a single accepted 
pronunciation for Latin.
True?

Liz


-------------------------------------------------------------
Liz Day
Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia 
miserulata).
USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous 
forest.
daylight at kiva.net
www.kiva.net/~daylight
-------------------------------------------------------------



 
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From patfoley at csus.edu  Fri Jul 27 19:54:32 2001
From: patfoley at csus.edu (Patrick Foley)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:54:32 -0700
Subject: How many butterflies crossed the road?
References: <000901c116e9$15c975c0$4c62a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <3B61FF38.D78E4894@csus.edu>

Martin,

Imagine that time is frozen, and that during that time, you swept down the road
with a net the area of your car's cross section. The volume you swept out (fast
or slow) is constant (=cross section area * distance traveled). You caught 5
butterflies per that volume. You now have an estimate of the butterfly density
per volume at car height.

Imagine you carry a larger net, one the size of the road itself. You now have
another estimate of the butterfly/volume density, 75/volume of the road
(thinking of the road as a tunnel of whatever height you could observe.

You also have a ratio of car cross section to road cross section 5/75.

Patrick
patfoley at csus.edu


cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

> Given that I was driving at 75 kilometres an hour for 25 miles as 75 leps
> lept across the road,  how many leps could I estimate to be in that area if
> I knew that it was cropland 25 miles to the east and 20 miles to the west.
> (Yes, I was going in a north/south direction.)
>
> What would I dare to infer over and above the fact that 5 leps now graced
> the front of my vehicle leaving 70 to have continued to fly on somewhere.
>
> Martin Bailey,
>
> cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
> phone/fax   306 842-8936
>
> 102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
> Weyburn, SK., Canada.
> S4H 2X3
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 27 18:03:55 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:03:55 -0400
Subject: Butterflies tasting
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <3B61E54B.71B0@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

Well, so far all of the emails have confirmed what my latin teacher has
told me, that the correct pronounciation for the 'ae' combo is like an
'i', and that is what I shall continue to do I suppose (especially since
I've never done it any other way).  
Now, does anyone know how the x in say polyxenes is supposed to be
pronounced?

Peace,
Xi Wang

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 27 18:22:34 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:22:34 -0400
Subject: more about latin names
Message-ID: <3B61E9AA.789B@mb.sympatico.ca>

And while on the subject of latin names, I also remember my latin
teacher saying that there was no letter j in the latin alphabet, and yet
j's are pretty prevalent amongst latin names for leps.  Ex: Charaxes
jasius (Large Blue Charaxes), Junonia villida (Meadow Argus), Jamides
alecto (Metallic Cerulean), Dione juno (Scarce Silver-spotted Flambeau),
Janomima westwoodi (Inquisitive Monkey (where do they come up with
these?)), et cetera.  So, what's the deal here?  How can they have all
these j's in the latin names if j was never a part of the latin
alphabet?  
Furthermore, the letter w in classical latin is pronounced like a v. 
So, westwoodi would be pronounced vestwoodi, but no one seems to
actually say it like that.  Thoughts/comments are welcome.

Peace,
Xi Wang

 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Fri Jul 27 18:32:31 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:32:31 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B61FE6C@webgate1.mail.vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <3B61EBFF.F89@mb.sympatico.ca>

Hi,

hossleew wrote:
> 
> Classical Latin, as I was taught in college by professors who persisted in
> exactness, pronounces all C's hard and sounds the same as our "K". "AE" is
> always pronounced like the letter "I", so to answer your question "ceae"
> sounds like "kay-eye."

Actually, I've been saying the c's hard like that as well.  But i think
the position of the letter matters as well.  For example, in Hyalophora
cecropia, the c is not pronounced like the letter k....although now I'm
not so sure that that's correct anymore.....certainly sounds more
euphonic than the pronounciation 'kakropia'.
 
> Then again, in the two thousand plus years since Latin came about, I am sure
> that much has been changed or lost. For example, I hear they teach Latin
> pronunciation slightly differently in England.
> 
> Eric Hossler
> BS Classics, Class of '01

 
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From spruance at infinet.com  Fri Jul 27 21:03:52 2001
From: spruance at infinet.com (Eric or Pat Metzler)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:03:52 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>, <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>, <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <3b621347$0$62140$ac966d11@news.raex.com>

Good topic, and the answers are already known.  We just have to do our
research.

Don Borror was an expert on the subject.  He taught classes and wrote the
book referenced by Jane Dillonaire.  I have copies of several editions of
his class notes that were the basis for the book.  If you want to talk about
pronounciation, you have to have a copy of Don's book.  It is still
available and inexpensive.

In the meantime, we have to remember two things.

FIRST of all, scientific words are latinized, they are not necessarily
Latin.  For example, a species named after Bethune as bethunei does not
become "beh thu neee iii."  It is "beh thune i."   It is Bethune's name with
a long i on the end.  We don't change Bethune's name just because we
latinized it.  On the other hand, some words, like Patricia, are Latin words
and need no modification in spelling nor pronounciation.  A copy of good
Latin dictionary is very helpful for learning these things.

Also, Borror makes a point of stressing the root of the word when trying to
understand the pronounciation.  Many of the scientific words were created
from Greek roots, thus their pronounciation relies on knowledge of Greek.
As all of us try to apply our high school and college Latin to scientific
names, we will not know the answers until we know the roots of the words,
and from whence they came.  So, add a good Greek dictionary to your list of
books to buy.

For names from Russian, add a Russian dictionary.  You get the idea.

Until the early 20th century, and much later for experts like Borror and
Franclemont, knowledge of Greek and Latin roots was required for persons who
coined a scientific name.  These subjects were commonly taught.  These guys
knew what they were talking about.  If you look at many of Grote's
descriptions, he even gives the scientific name in Greek as well as Latin.

Secondly, Look at different pronounciations of the same word.  People in
"Deh troit" Michigan bristle at persons who say "DEEE troit," and try to get
by saying "Orrr eee gahn" in the state of "Ore eh gun."

So, for common words, like the dae ending of animal family names, or the
aceae ending of family plant names, Borror is the undisputed authority.  For
all others, whether "Cat ah ca lla" or "Cat OH cay lah," you have to know
the roots and the correct combinations.  Everything else is just guessing.

Cheers from Columbus, Ohio

Eric

"Jane Dillonaire" <jdillonaire at rcn.com> wrote in message
news:9jsn87$jo3$1 at bob.news.rcn.net...
> According to Borror (in _Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms_),
the
> diphthong "ae" is pronounced as a long e - like in "Pete".  By the way, I
> find this book indispensable.  Knowing the meaning of the roots helps me
to
> remember the species as well as the scientific name.
>
>



 
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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Fri Jul 27 22:19:10 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 22:19:10 -0400
Subject: more about latin names
References: <3B61E9AA.789B@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <001f01c1170b$b037a380$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: more about latin names


> And while on the subject of latin names, I also remember my latin
> teacher saying that there was no letter j in the latin alphabet, and yet
> j's are pretty prevalent amongst latin names for leps.  Ex: Charaxes
> jasius (Large Blue Charaxes), Junonia villida (Meadow Argus), Jamides
> alecto (Metallic Cerulean), Dione juno (Scarce Silver-spotted Flambeau),
> Janomima westwoodi (Inquisitive Monkey (where do they come up with
> these?)), et cetera.  So, what's the deal here?  How can they have all
> these j's in the latin names if j was never a part of the latin
> alphabet?
> Furthermore, the letter w in classical latin is pronounced like a v.
> So, westwoodi would be pronounced vestwoodi, but no one seems to
> actually say it like that.  Thoughts/comments are welcome.
>
> Peace,
> Xi Wang
>

This is because the IZCN, and I assume the ICBN too, are not actually about
Latin. They are about a nomenclature of word-terms that are latinizations,
and even Latin and Greek  hybrids. So all the terms are corruptions - a
scientific Tbonics if you will. The code is more concerned with gender
agreements and not with letters, syllables, sounds etc. One can just make
up a word and it would work - sockittoum for example. Now it discourages
frivolous or vulgar epithets, but the options of word creations are pretty
wide.
Ron


 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Sat Jul 28 00:39:24 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:39:24 -0500
Subject: pronunciations
In-Reply-To: <3b621347$0$62140$ac966d11@news.raex.com>
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>
 <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
 <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010727231912.00aa0600@b.pop.kiva.net>

For what it's worth:

J.S. Smith, in _Vascular Plant Families_ (1977), says the following stuff, 
and refers readers to a 1966 500-page book on botanical latin by a W.T. 
Stearn, that I gather he got it from.   (There is also an amusing paragraph 
about the differences of opinion that exist on pronunciation.   Not being 
any kind of expert, I wouldn't know.)

(Stuff related to things people have asked:)

"The letters J, U, and W did not occur in the classical [Latin] 
alphabet.  Some ... insist, for instance, that _Castilleja_ should be 
spelled _Castilleia_."

"The dipthongs ae and oe have the sound [of a long e]."

"The consonants c and g are soft (have the sounds "s" and "j") if they are 
followed by ae, e, i, oe, or y.  Otherwise, c is pronounced as "k" and the 
g is hard...."

"An x [at the beginning of a word] is pronounced as a "z", not "ek-z".

Nothing in there gives any guidance to saying "catocala".   Since an actual 
catocala just entered the room, I will leave this to Borror and get off the 
machine now.

cheers,
Liz

-------------------------------------------------------------
Liz Day
Indianapolis, Indiana, central USA  (40 N, ~86 W)
Home of budgerigar Tweeter and the beautiful pink inchworm (Eupithecia 
miserulata).
USDA zone 5b.  Winters ~20F, summers ~85F.  Formerly temperate deciduous 
forest.
daylight at kiva.net
www.kiva.net/~daylight
-------------------------------------------------------------



 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Sat Jul 28 00:53:57 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:53:57 -0500
Subject: pronunciations
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010727180602.00a97a50@b.pop.kiva.net>
References: <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
 <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>
 <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010727232316.028961d0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

True,
    Latin was the international common language of its day and it survived 
in a number of specialized pockets  long after it was lost in general 
usage. Church Latin differed from Legal Latin, differed from Classicists' 
Latin, differed from Scientific (Biologists') Latin.
    Latin became the language of commerce with the expansion of the Roman 
Empire a little over 2k years ago. Before that the common language of 
commerce was Greek. The Roman Empire lingered on culturally long after the 
fall of Rome. The Roman Catholic Church only recently stopped using Latin 
in general services. A Latin diagnosis is still needed for proper 
publication of a new botanical taxon. Latin was used to publish 
entomological papers as late as 1910 in South Africa and as late as the 
1950's in Finland.
    I have always used (my understanding of) a generic "European" 
pronunciation for entomological Latin. I always pronounced *Erebia* as 
Eh-re-bi-a as if it was named after Mount Erebus until in 1957 at the 10th 
International Entomological Congress, I heard Klots, dos Passos and Forbes 
talking about Eh-ree-bee-ya. I have since heard French and Italian 
entomologists use the former pronunciation. Which is correct? As long as we 
can spell the name and understand what we are talking about both are! After 
all, who (other than scholars of Greek) "speaks" Latin anymore? We should 
have respect for diversity.
    It is possible and useful that a Norwegian, a Singaporean and an Indian 
can talk together about Science, in English and understand each other. This 
is functionally no different from a 10th Century Viking, a Venetian 
navigator and an Irish priest talking together in Latin.
    Let us value both Latin and English as languages for international 
communication since Esperanto has apparently not been generally accepted. I 
expect Chinese will be the next international language - are you learning yet?
    I usually hear the plant family as Eri-casey. Then there is 
See-no-nim-fa, Fie-see-oh-dees etc.
...................Chris Durden

At 06:14 PM 7/27/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>When I listen to plant people, they seem to pronounce "eae" as "ee-ee".   Thus
>Ericaceae (the heather family) becomes  ERR - ih - CAY - see - ee.
>
>But then I pronounce antennae "an - TEN - eye", with a long i.  Thus I can 
>be assured of being wrong at least half the time.  :-)
>
>I vote for having different pronunciations for animals and plants, on the 
>grounds that there is no linguistically complicated situation that can't 
>be fixed by making it even more complicated. :-)
>
>Seriously, my understanding is that there is no longer a single accepted 
>pronunciation for Latin.
>True?
>
>Liz
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Liz Day



 
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Sat Jul 28 06:08:43 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:08:43 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>, <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>, <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b621347$0$62140$ac966d11@news.raex.com>
Message-ID: <007301c1174d$4a1204a0$52890a3f@1swch01>

Eric, et al:

Many thanks for the discussion of pronunciation of sci names. I live in
(lepidopteron) isolation here in south Ga, and only my specimens hear what I
call them. I have always pronounced "ae" as long "e" because I had, of all
things, German in college. A rule of thumb in that language is that "ie" and
"ei" takes the long sound of the latter vowel; thus ...stein is ...stine and
...stien is ...steen.

I'll try Amazon for the Borror book.

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric or Pat Metzler" <spruance at infinet.com>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: pronunciations


> Good topic, and the answers are already known.  We just have to do our
> research.
>
> Don Borror was an expert on the subject.  He taught classes and wrote the
> book referenced by Jane Dillonaire.  I have copies of several editions of
> his class notes that were the basis for the book.  If you want to talk
about
> pronounciation, you have to have a copy of Don's book.  It is still
> available and inexpensive.
>
> In the meantime, we have to remember two things.
>
> FIRST of all, scientific words are latinized, they are not necessarily
> Latin.  For example, a species named after Bethune as bethunei does not
> become "beh thu neee iii."  It is "beh thune i."   It is Bethune's name
with
> a long i on the end.  We don't change Bethune's name just because we
> latinized it.  On the other hand, some words, like Patricia, are Latin
words
> and need no modification in spelling nor pronounciation.  A copy of good
> Latin dictionary is very helpful for learning these things.
>
> Also, Borror makes a point of stressing the root of the word when trying
to
> understand the pronounciation.  Many of the scientific words were created
> from Greek roots, thus their pronounciation relies on knowledge of Greek.
> As all of us try to apply our high school and college Latin to scientific
> names, we will not know the answers until we know the roots of the words,
> and from whence they came.  So, add a good Greek dictionary to your list
of
> books to buy.
>
> For names from Russian, add a Russian dictionary.  You get the idea.
>
> Until the early 20th century, and much later for experts like Borror and
> Franclemont, knowledge of Greek and Latin roots was required for persons
who
> coined a scientific name.  These subjects were commonly taught.  These
guys
> knew what they were talking about.  If you look at many of Grote's
> descriptions, he even gives the scientific name in Greek as well as Latin.
>
> Secondly, Look at different pronounciations of the same word.  People in
> "Deh troit" Michigan bristle at persons who say "DEEE troit," and try to
get
> by saying "Orrr eee gahn" in the state of "Ore eh gun."
>
> So, for common words, like the dae ending of animal family names, or the
> aceae ending of family plant names, Borror is the undisputed authority.
For
> all others, whether "Cat ah ca lla" or "Cat OH cay lah," you have to know
> the roots and the correct combinations.  Everything else is just guessing.
>
> Cheers from Columbus, Ohio
>
> Eric
>
> "Jane Dillonaire" <jdillonaire at rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:9jsn87$jo3$1 at bob.news.rcn.net...
> > According to Borror (in _Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms_),
> the
> > diphthong "ae" is pronounced as a long e - like in "Pete".  By the way,
I
> > find this book indispensable.  Knowing the meaning of the roots helps me
> to
> > remember the species as well as the scientific name.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From 1_iron at msn.com  Sat Jul 28 06:10:21 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 06:10:21 -0400
Subject: Butterflies tasting
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca> <3B61E54B.71B0@mb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <007b01c1174d$83f24d60$52890a3f@1swch01>

Hi, Xi;

Like "z" I would say. Do you pronounce your name "Zi"?

Jim Taylor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "gwang" <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Butterflies tasting


> Hi,
> 
> Well, so far all of the emails have confirmed what my latin teacher has
> told me, that the correct pronounciation for the 'ae' combo is like an
> 'i', and that is what I shall continue to do I suppose (especially since
> I've never done it any other way).  
> Now, does anyone know how the x in say polyxenes is supposed to be
> pronounced?
> 
> Peace,
> Xi Wang
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  
> 
> 


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From spruance at infinet.com  Sat Jul 28 11:01:38 2001
From: spruance at infinet.com (spruance at infinet.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 11:01:38 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B60969C.1DF9@mb.sympatico.ca>, <004b01c1165c$293620a0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>, <9jsn87$jo3$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3b621347$0$62140$ac966d11@news.raex.com> <007301c1174d$4a1204a0$52890a3f@1swch01>
Message-ID: <3B62D3D2.2D86D3D1@infinet.com>

Jim,

Good to hear from you.  It's been awhile.

The Borror book is:  Dictionary of word roots and combining forms. 
copyright by Borror in 1960.  The eleventh printing was in 1971, and was
available in paperback from Mayfield Publishing Company in Palo Alto
California in the early 1970's for less than $10.00

If you cannot find it at Amazon, you might try www.abebooks.com  ABE
books is one of the best places to look for used books in the World. 
Last time I looked, ABE books had listing of nearly 1,000 books on
Lepidoptera, butterflies, and moths.  ABE represents all your favorite
dealers, such as Classey, and a host of other dealers you'd never find
on your own.

I acquired some of Borror's class handouts from some of his former
students here at OSU in Columbus.

Best wishes from Columbus Ohio

Eric



1_iron wrote:
> 
> Eric, et al:
> 
> Many thanks for the discussion of pronunciation of sci names. I live in
> (lepidopteron) isolation here in south Ga, and only my specimens hear what I
> call them. I have always pronounced "ae" as long "e" because I had, of all
> things, German in college. A rule of thumb in that language is that "ie" and
> "ei" takes the long sound of the latter vowel; thus ...stein is ...stine and
> ...stien is ...steen.
> 
> I'll try Amazon for the Borror book.
> 
> Jim Taylor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric or Pat Metzler" <spruance at infinet.com>
> To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: pronunciations
> 
> > Good topic, and the answers are already known.  We just have to do our
> > research.
> >
> > Don Borror was an expert on the subject.  He taught classes and wrote the
> > book referenced by Jane Dillonaire.  I have copies of several editions of
> > his class notes that were the basis for the book.  If you want to talk
> about
> > pronounciation, you have to have a copy of Don's book.  It is still
> > available and inexpensive.
> >
> > In the meantime, we have to remember two things.
> >
> > FIRST of all, scientific words are latinized, they are not necessarily
> > Latin.  For example, a species named after Bethune as bethunei does not
> > become "beh thu neee iii."  It is "beh thune i."   It is Bethune's name
> with
> > a long i on the end.  We don't change Bethune's name just because we
> > latinized it.  On the other hand, some words, like Patricia, are Latin
> words
> > and need no modification in spelling nor pronounciation.  A copy of good
> > Latin dictionary is very helpful for learning these things.
> >
> > Also, Borror makes a point of stressing the root of the word when trying
> to
> > understand the pronounciation.  Many of the scientific words were created
> > from Greek roots, thus their pronounciation relies on knowledge of Greek.
> > As all of us try to apply our high school and college Latin to scientific
> > names, we will not know the answers until we know the roots of the words,
> > and from whence they came.  So, add a good Greek dictionary to your list
> of
> > books to buy.
> >
> > For names from Russian, add a Russian dictionary.  You get the idea.
> >
> > Until the early 20th century, and much later for experts like Borror and
> > Franclemont, knowledge of Greek and Latin roots was required for persons
> who
> > coined a scientific name.  These subjects were commonly taught.  These
> guys
> > knew what they were talking about.  If you look at many of Grote's
> > descriptions, he even gives the scientific name in Greek as well as Latin.
> >
> > Secondly, Look at different pronounciations of the same word.  People in
> > "Deh troit" Michigan bristle at persons who say "DEEE troit," and try to
> get
> > by saying "Orrr eee gahn" in the state of "Ore eh gun."
> >
> > So, for common words, like the dae ending of animal family names, or the
> > aceae ending of family plant names, Borror is the undisputed authority.
> For
> > all others, whether "Cat ah ca lla" or "Cat OH cay lah," you have to know
> > the roots and the correct combinations.  Everything else is just guessing.
> >
> > Cheers from Columbus, Ohio
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > "Jane Dillonaire" <jdillonaire at rcn.com> wrote in message
> > news:9jsn87$jo3$1 at bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > According to Borror (in _Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms_),
> > the
> > > diphthong "ae" is pronounced as a long e - like in "Pete".  By the way,
> I
> > > find this book indispensable.  Knowing the meaning of the roots helps me
> > to
> > > remember the species as well as the scientific name.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
> >
> >

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From HpAzures at aol.com  Sat Jul 28 12:07:31 2001
From: HpAzures at aol.com (HpAzures at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:07:31 EDT
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
Message-ID: <c1.118a8d5d.28943d43@aol.com>

All:

NABA has revised the common name of Limenitis arthemis astyanax to 
"Red-spotted Admiral".  I presume this was done in the name of standardizing 
genus names.  Thus, all Limenitis (correctly Basilarchia?) are now 
"Admirals".  However, I wonder how many newcomers will now confuse Red 
Admirals with Red-spotted Admirals?  

People cry about stability in names, but now this will certainly confuse 
newcomers who still see the name "Red-spotted Purple" in their guides but are 
being told that's not correct (I would have suggested "Blue Admiral" for 
astyanax).  Now, Red Admirals will certainly need to be changed to "Red 
Ladies" to comply with standardization.  Viceroys will need to be known as 
"Viceroy Admirals"  

Similarly, Fixsenia favonius ontario, traditionally called the "Northern 
Hairstreak" was changed to "Southern Hairstreak", thus stripped of it's 
subspecific distinction from F. favonius favonius.  Now it's the "Oak 
Hairstreak" because it uses Oak.  I seem to recall that a great number of 
Hairstreaks also use oak...exclusively, like Edwards' Hairstreak!  

What's a lepidopterist to do?  

I consider all of these new NABA common names just that: NABA common-names.  
Nobody, especially anyone posting names on the various discussion groups, is 
obliged to use these names outside of NABA activities.  There is no formally 
established international system for common names, as there is with 
scientific names.  For me, tradional useage prevails, and there will always 
be a Northern Hairstreak, Red-spotted Purple and Olive Hairstreak.  My 
library of guides say so.  

Taxonomists just want to have fun.

Harry Pavulaan
-------------- next part --------------
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From mothman at belizemail.net  Sat Jul 28 11:55:23 2001
From: mothman at belizemail.net (Matthew Barnes)
Date: 28 Jul 2001 08:55:23 -0700
Subject: New Jamaican Moths Website
Message-ID: <b07b7bcd.0107280755.32b14f26@posting.google.com>

Fellow Lepidopterists might possibly be interested in my new website
'Moths of Jamaica' which currently documents 730 of the estimated
1,000 macromoths from that island and illustrates just short of 500 of
these species in colour.  It may be accessed at
http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/jamaicamoth  OR via a link on my 
website 'Moths of Belize' at http://www.tropicalmoths.org

I'm still hoping someone can identify the two unknown bugs I currently
have posted at http://members.fortunecity.com/belizemoths/images7/mysterymoths.jpg

Best Wishes

Matthew J. C. Barnes
mothman at belizemail.net

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From kennk at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jul 28 13:15:23 2001
From: kennk at ix.netcom.com (Kenn Kaufman)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:15:23 -0700
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
Message-ID: <004e01c11788$e43d53a0$6be7323f@default>


Harry Pavulaan wrote:

> NABA has revised the common name of Limenitis arthemis astyanax to
> "Red-spotted Admiral".  I presume this was done in the name of
standardizing
> genus names.  Thus, all Limenitis (correctly Basilarchia?) are now
> "Admirals".  However, I wonder how many newcomers will now confuse Red
> Admirals with Red-spotted Admirals?

My comments are not meant as a defense of NABA (their latest
checklist strikes me as a step backwards in many ways) but as
a clarification.  I just looked at the list, and actually they apply the
name "Red-spotted Admiral" only to Limenitis arthemis in a
larger sense.  They continue to apply "Red-spotted Purple" to
L. a. astyanax, and "White Admiral" to L. a. arthemis.   Not stated,
but presumed, I suppose, is that L. a. rubrofasciata would also
be a White Admiral, and L. a. arizonensis would also be a
Red-spotted Purple, under this system.   In practice, the name
"Red-spotted Admiral" wouldn't apply to anything we would see
in the field or in the trays.   The problem with having such a name
at all is that birders coming into "butterflying" bring along a
prejudice against using English names for subspecies, and
they may think it's "correct" to use the larger group name for
anything in this complex that they see.  ---  Anyone on this list
who has influence at NABA might suggest that their members
be encouraged to continue to use the more precise names for
these taxa, and to not use "Red-spotted Admiral" at all.

Kenn Kaufman
Tucson, AZ
kennk at ix.netcom.com



 
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From gwang at mb.sympatico.ca  Sat Jul 28 16:10:58 2001
From: gwang at mb.sympatico.ca (gwang)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:10:58 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies?
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010726135314.00b4b190@mail.it.su.se>, <29079-3B6140FF-193@storefull-126.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, <Kip87.12256$Me1.247809@e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com>
Message-ID: <3B631C52.6496@mb.sympatico.ca>

Curious, I raise Monarchs, and thus handle tons (not literally) of
milkweed, every summer and I have never had any problems w/ milkweed sap
on my skin.  Perhaps the sap only affects a small portion of the
population?  

Peace,
Xi Wang

Bob Thomas wrote:
> 
> Just don't eat monarchs!
> See the post from Paul regarding milkweed "juice" in-the eye syndrome.
> Really scary stuff.  I remember collecting larvae and raising them as
> science projects in school.  A little milkweed juice on the arm and I had an
> bad welt that itched for days.  I don't need someone to tell me that the
> insect consuming this stuff is probably not safe to put in my mouth!  Lets
> just agree that the lizards and birds are right on this one.
> --
> Bob Thomas
> 
> Cameron Park, California
> 
> P.S.
> The Praying Mantis does not have a problem eating Monarchs - but they also
> eat wasps and bees...
> 
> <sebrez at webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:29079-3B6140FF-193 at storefull-126.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > I have noticed that monarchs have a strong odor, but never tasted one.
> >
> >
> >
> > mail to: sebrez at webtv.net
> >

 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Sat Jul 28 19:35:16 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:35:16 -0500
Subject: more about latin names
Message-ID: <20010728.184048.-88941.1.mbpi@juno.com>

I guess that  means old Ceasar (Julias, to my recollection), "didn't
exist" either (!)

Mary Beth Prondzinski

On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:22:34 -0400 gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca> writes:
> And while on the subject of latin names, I also remember my latin
> teacher saying that there was no letter j in the latin alphabet
>
________________________________________________________________
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From viceroy at anu.ie  Sun Jul 29 01:29:22 2001
From: viceroy at anu.ie (Anne Kilmer)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 06:29:22 +0100
Subject: pronunciations
References: <3B61FE6C@webgate1.mail.vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <3B639F32.6C97E578@anu.ie>

hossleew wrote:
> 
> Classical Latin, as I was taught in college by professors who persisted in
> exactness, pronounces all C's hard and sounds the same as our "K". "AE" is
> always pronounced like the letter "I", so to answer your question "ceae"
> sounds like "kay-eye."
> 
> Then again, in the two thousand plus years since Latin came about, I am sure
> that much has been changed or lost. For example, I hear they teach Latin
> pronunciation slightly differently in England.
> 
> Eric Hossler
> BS Classics, Class of '01
> 
But ... why would you pronounce your scientific names using the
arbitrary and improbable rules applied by your professors to Classical
Latin? 
My brother is a Classics professor, and has told me that he gets an
amazingly wide range of pronunciations going through ... but nobody
knows how Romans pronounced their language, and there were of course
many regional differences, as there are in English now. 

Latin, as the universal language of science, commerce and religion, had
changed a good bit at the point where Linnaeus (whose common name was
Linne) created order out of chaos. 
Therefore, we should be using the Latin handed down by the Church,
probably with a Swedish accent (out of respect).
(Excuse me a minute; I must just talk to this wren on the window sill.)
The Ericaceae therefore, are pronounced eh-rih-Kay-see-ay. Ae is a
long-a sound. The accent goes on the antepenultimate syllable, of
course. Next to next to last. In this case, the Kay. Leave it to Latin
to *expect* more than three syllables in a word.  
If you are from Boston, you will not sound the way I do when you
pronounce these syllables. It really doesn't matter, either. 
I, having had 12 years of Latin before I left high school, pronounce
scientific names with elegance and ease, as the Holy Mother Church
taught me. I can rip through them syllables as to the manor born. 
I have forgotten all the grammar, let alone the declensions and
conjugations, but by golly I can pronounce the hell out of it. 
The C is sometimes a K sound; sometimes an S, according to the vowels it
hangs with, just as in English. 
When "I" makes a consonant sort of sound (Y), we spell it with a J now;
that's where we get Julius.  The damnedest things happen to that letter
J, according to what language is using it; you must have noticed. 
The trick is to sound sure. Thus, even if you are mispronouncing
everything you say, others will quail and imitate you. 

I think Ron and I are on the same page in this one. 
Anne Kilmer
Mayo, Ireland

 
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From Guy_VdP at t-online.de  Sun Jul 29 02:42:37 2001
From: Guy_VdP at t-online.de (Guy Van de Poel & A. Kalus)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:42:37 +0200
Subject: more about latin names
References: <20010728.184048.-88941.1.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c117f9$a8c40a00$751058d9@server>

One of the things I read when still in school was 'De Bello Gallico' (about
the Gallic War).
He brought 'civilisation' (had to murder or enslave them to accept it) to
the French and (Wallonian) Belgians. He even wrote about the Belgians as
being 'the bravest among all Gallians'. Us Flemish are from a later period,
when his work was definitively destroyed.
He signed with Iulius.

Guy.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mbpi at juno.com>
To: <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
Cc: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: zondag 29 juli 2001 1:35
Subject: Re: more about latin names


> I guess that  means old Ceasar (Julias, to my recollection), "didn't
> exist" either (!)
>
> Mary Beth Prondzinski
>
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:22:34 -0400 gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca> writes:
> > And while on the subject of latin names, I also remember my latin
> > teacher saying that there was no letter j in the latin alphabet
> >
> ________________________________________________________________
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From Sumairp at lycos.com  Sun Jul 29 05:39:40 2001
From: Sumairp at lycos.com (Who?  Me?)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:39:40 GMT
Subject: for SBE.Leps
Message-ID: <3b63d976.39196607@news.eaa.com.au>

Looks like the Kiddies are at it again.

I do wish they wouldn't.

Chris Hocking

 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Sun Jul 29 05:10:58 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 05:10:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
References: <004e01c11788$e43d53a0$6be7323f@default>
Message-ID: <18516-3B63D322-6@storefull-123.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

If they had asked me, which they didn't, I'd have opted for "white
banded purple".


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From sebrez at webtv.net  Sun Jul 29 05:22:23 2001
From: sebrez at webtv.net (sebrez at webtv.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 05:22:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: How many butterflies crossed the road?
References: <000901c116e9$15c975c0$4c62a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <18516-3B63D5CF-7@storefull-123.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

   I have noticed that it's not only the ones that get "grilled" on the
front of our cars, but also those that get caught in the down draft and
crash into the road surface. I'd up your total to 10.
    Tiger Swallowtails seem to be especially vulnerable in our area to
vehicular destruction.  


         
mail to: sebrez at webtv.net                     


 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Sun Jul 29 11:17:27 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 10:17:27 -0500
Subject: more about latin names
In-Reply-To: <20010729.062030.-199479.0.mbpi@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010729100831.02890b70@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Don't know!
    Maybe he pronounced it Julius and that has just been repeated over the 
centuries. Maybe the position of the letter influences the way it is 
pronounced. You can look at other languages too, for example there is Mayor 
Giuliani in New York. There must have been some historical precedent for 
that pronunciation.
    Then there is that butterfly that a friend of mine always calls an 
Orange Julius - is it Julia or Iulia. The name in the guide books used to 
be *Dryas julia*. The name in the current guide books is now *Dryas iulia* 
because that is the way it was spelt in the first description. Personally I 
prefer to use Barcant's name (from Trinidad), The Flambeau.
.............Chris Durden

At 06:20 AM 7/29/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Then why don't we call him Jul-jus?!
>
>Mary Beth
>
>On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:19:20 -0500 "Chris J. Durden"
><drdn at mail.utexas.edu> writes:
> > The name was spelt IVLIVS on his coins.
> > ..............Chris Durden
> >
> > At 06:35 PM 7/28/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> > >I guess that  means old Ceasar (Julias, to my recollection),
> > "didn't
> > >exist" either (!)
> > >
> > >Mary Beth Prondzinski
> > >
> > >On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:22:34 -0400 gwang <gwang at mb.sympatico.ca>
> > writes:
> > > > And while on the subject of latin names, I also remember my
> > latin
> > > > teacher saying that there was no letter j in the latin alphabet
> > > >
> > >________________________________________________________________
> > >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
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> >
> >
>
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Sun Jul 29 14:32:23 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:32:23 -0400
Subject: Unknowns
Message-ID: <001901c1185c$d0fa3180$fb8a0a3f@1swch01>

Listers:

I have posted three pics of moths at http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/1_iron1/lst?.dir=/Unknowns&.src=ph&.last=1 
and I would like ID.s. The first is obviously a Prominent, but it doesn't resemble any I have. ????

Jim Taylor

(P.S. This ain't a sneaky test; I really would like to know what they are.)
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From jeff at primus.ca  Sun Jul 29 20:06:14 2001
From: jeff at primus.ca (Jeff Crolla/Martha Hancock)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 20:06:14 -0400
Subject: Unknowns
References: <001901c1185c$d0fa3180$fb8a0a3f@1swch01>
Message-ID: <000801c1188b$740e4ea0$609efed8@default>

#1 is Peridea angulosa, #3 is Plusiodonta compressipalpis (Noctuidae). #2 is a Pyralid and looks to me like its probably Palpita magniferalis (Covell's Plate 58 Fig1). 

Hope this helps

Jeff Crolla
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 1_iron 
  To: Leps-L 
  Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 02:32 PM
  Subject: Unknowns


  Listers:
   
  I have posted three pics of moths at http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/1_iron1/lst?.dir=/Unknowns&.src=ph&.last=1 
  and I would like ID.s. The first is obviously a Prominent, but it doesn't resemble any I have. ????
   
  Jim Taylor
   
  (P.S. This ain't a sneaky test; I really would like to know what they are.)
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From Leptraps at aol.com  Mon Jul 30 01:47:20 2001
From: Leptraps at aol.com (Leptraps at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 01:47:20 EDT
Subject: Dried Specimens
Message-ID: <6a.1144ac3c.28964ee8@aol.com>

Hey, I am back!

I've been to west Texas and Arizona on a collecting trip and found the thread 
of dried specimens, drooping, and storage problems. I was employed for a 
numbers of years and times with The Interior Steel Equipment Co., a 
manufacture of steel cabinets for the storage of museum collections (The 
product line is now manufactured by the Viking Cabinet Co., Chicago, IL). I 
was part of the management team that designed and developed manufacturing 
techniques to produce the finest cabinets in the world. Being a 
Lepidopterist, I solved all of the problems you have with the use of these 
steel cabinets. I now own two double door 48 drawer cabinets, ten single door 
24 drawer cabinets and two single door 11 drawer cabinets. These are air 
tight/light tight cabinets. (It has been said that you could fart in one of 
these cabinets, immediately close the door, open it 50 years later and still 
smell the fart!) I also developed a metal container to hold 3 OZ of PDB with 
a magnetic strip to hold it to the door. I place PDB once every six months in 
each cabinet and I have NEVER had a problem with dermestids. I also use a 
larger container of the same type for a desiccant. I replace the desiccant 
every other month. I also have a museum cabinet with shelves which will hold 
approximately 200 spreading broads and the small amount of dried papered 
material that I may have. I leave spread material on boards over a month. I 
NEVER leave any material, spread on boards, in process specimens or mounted 
specimens out side of a cabinet. Only when I am working on specimens are they 
out of the cabinets. I store papered material in a freezer. When I do receive 
papered material from other Lepidopterists, I put it in my freezer for a 
month to kill any dermestids.

To help in wing positioning, I cut the wing muscles of most skippers and 
larger moths. I degrease with either. I use cyanide as my killing agent.

I learned these techniques from the late Harry Clench and J.F.Gates Clark. I 
have used them for over 30 years. 

Maintaining a collection is a serious matter to me. My current collections is 
25 years in process. I travel around the country collecting material, it is a 
serious financial matter. I protect my collection in high quality drawers (I 
make my drawers from BioQuip kits) and cabinets. 

I occasionally find a specimen that has drooping wings. I simply relax the 
specimen, cut the wing muscles and remount it. 

Unfortunately, I started mounting specimens on seamstress pins as a young 
boy. I mounted over 30,000 specimens before I learned about insect pins. I 
mounted another 15,000 before changing over to insect pins in 1981. I have 
since remounted about 20,000 specimens onto insect pins. The remaining 
specimens were given away or donated to a museum. I still have another 3,000 
specimens to remount. I based my remounting on the quality and scientific 
value of the specimen. 

I will need another cabinet next year. I will purchase a quality 
airtight/light tight cabinet. I may even try a little test of time!

Cheers,

Leroy C. Koehn
202 Redding Road
Georgetown, Kentucky
USA          40324-2622
Tele.: 502-570-9123
Cell: 502-803-5422
E-mail: Leptraps at aol.com

"Let's get among them"
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From 1_iron at msn.com  Mon Jul 30 05:18:18 2001
From: 1_iron at msn.com (1_iron)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:18:18 -0400
Subject: Dried Specimens
References: <6a.1144ac3c.28964ee8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003501c118d8$943b4780$a1890a3f@1swch01>

Leroy wrote in part:
  It has been said that you could fart in one of these cabinets, immediately
  close the door, open it 50 years later and still smell the fart. . . I place PDB 
  once every six months in each cabinet . . .

  Leroy, isn't that a lot like wearing a belt AND suspenders? Talk about double treatment.

  Jim Taylor
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Mon Jul 30 07:13:33 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 07:13:33 -0400
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AEB@NTFS2>

I don't know why some are "pandering" so much to "birders" coming into
"butterflying". What on earth is going on?

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kenn Kaufman [SMTP:kennk at ix.netcom.com]
> Sent:	Saturday, July 28, 2001 1:15 PM
> To:	HpAzures at aol.com; Leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	Re: Red-spotted Admirals??
> 
> 
> Harry Pavulaan wrote:
> 
> > NABA has revised the common name of Limenitis arthemis astyanax to
> > "Red-spotted Admiral".  I presume this was done in the name of
> standardizing
> > genus names.  Thus, all Limenitis (correctly Basilarchia?) are now
> > "Admirals".  However, I wonder how many newcomers will now confuse Red
> > Admirals with Red-spotted Admirals?
> 
> My comments are not meant as a defense of NABA (their latest
> checklist strikes me as a step backwards in many ways) but as
> a clarification.  I just looked at the list, and actually they apply the
> name "Red-spotted Admiral" only to Limenitis arthemis in a
> larger sense.  They continue to apply "Red-spotted Purple" to
> L. a. astyanax, and "White Admiral" to L. a. arthemis.   Not stated,
> but presumed, I suppose, is that L. a. rubrofasciata would also
> be a White Admiral, and L. a. arizonensis would also be a
> Red-spotted Purple, under this system.   In practice, the name
> "Red-spotted Admiral" wouldn't apply to anything we would see
> in the field or in the trays.   The problem with having such a name
> at all is that birders coming into "butterflying" bring along a
> prejudice against using English names for subspecies, and
> they may think it's "correct" to use the larger group name for
> anything in this complex that they see.  ---  Anyone on this list
> who has influence at NABA might suggest that their members
> be encouraged to continue to use the more precise names for
> these taxa, and to not use "Red-spotted Admiral" at all.
> 
> Kenn Kaufman
> Tucson, AZ
> kennk at ix.netcom.com
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Mon Jul 30 07:41:52 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 07:41:52 -0400
Subject: Eating Leps
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AF3@NTFS2>

Boston, What do you mean Boston? People don't talk funny here. By the way,
I'll have a slice of PIZZER and a BEAH. Eh-AH!!!

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Sent:	Friday, July 27, 2001 4:10 PM
> To:	mbpi at juno.com
> Cc:	Leps-l
> Subject:	Re: Eating Leps
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mbpi at juno.com>
> To: <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Eating Leps
> 
> 
> many hairy snips
> 
> > As for the debate on Latin pronunciation:  I studied classical Latin in
> > high school, also "just a few years ago..." (tee-hee), and I was taught
> > the pronunciation for "ae" was a long "i."  However, when I studied
> > systematics in college, the "ae" was pronounced like a long "e" in every
> > class I took, regardless of who was teaching it.  Anything ending in an
> > "eae" was pronounced like TWO long "e's."  Go figure!
> >
> > Mary Beth Prondzinski
> >
> 
> I have heard that the "ae" at the beginning of a word is pronounced long
> "e" but at the end long "a"?  But what I really want to know is why all
> the
> common names are pronounced so differently in Boston?
> 
> By the way, old Charlestonian pronunciations are very similar to that of
> old Boston. When I move here over 30 years ago it was heard a lot - it is
> now a disappearing dialect. For example "beer" is pronounced the exact
> same
> way Charleston  and Boston. Out and about in old money downtown Charleston
> is oot and aboot.
> 
> Ron
> 
> PS    It must be raining a lot of other places too, or we are not getting
> out butter around much.
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Mon Jul 30 07:47:55 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 07:47:55 -0400
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AF4@NTFS2>

Then what are they going to do with the Viceroy? Is it going to become the
"Orange-Brown White-Spotted Monarch-Like Different-than-all-the-Others
Eastern-Southern-Southwestern Admiral"?

I don't understand any of this, just as I don't see why the Southern and
Northern Hairstreaks are now Oak Hairstreaks. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Grkovich, Alex [SMTP:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
> Sent:	Monday, July 30, 2001 7:14 AM
> To:	'kennk at ix.netcom.com'; HpAzures at aol.com; Leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	RE: Red-spotted Admirals??
> 
> I don't know why some are "pandering" so much to "birders" coming into
> "butterflying". What on earth is going on?
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Kenn Kaufman [SMTP:kennk at ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent:	Saturday, July 28, 2001 1:15 PM
> > To:	HpAzures at aol.com; Leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject:	Re: Red-spotted Admirals??
> > 
> > 
> > Harry Pavulaan wrote:
> > 
> > > NABA has revised the common name of Limenitis arthemis astyanax to
> > > "Red-spotted Admiral".  I presume this was done in the name of
> > standardizing
> > > genus names.  Thus, all Limenitis (correctly Basilarchia?) are now
> > > "Admirals".  However, I wonder how many newcomers will now confuse Red
> > > Admirals with Red-spotted Admirals?
> > 
> > My comments are not meant as a defense of NABA (their latest
> > checklist strikes me as a step backwards in many ways) but as
> > a clarification.  I just looked at the list, and actually they apply the
> > name "Red-spotted Admiral" only to Limenitis arthemis in a
> > larger sense.  They continue to apply "Red-spotted Purple" to
> > L. a. astyanax, and "White Admiral" to L. a. arthemis.   Not stated,
> > but presumed, I suppose, is that L. a. rubrofasciata would also
> > be a White Admiral, and L. a. arizonensis would also be a
> > Red-spotted Purple, under this system.   In practice, the name
> > "Red-spotted Admiral" wouldn't apply to anything we would see
> > in the field or in the trays.   The problem with having such a name
> > at all is that birders coming into "butterflying" bring along a
> > prejudice against using English names for subspecies, and
> > they may think it's "correct" to use the larger group name for
> > anything in this complex that they see.  ---  Anyone on this list
> > who has influence at NABA might suggest that their members
> > be encouraged to continue to use the more precise names for
> > these taxa, and to not use "Red-spotted Admiral" at all.
> > 
> > Kenn Kaufman
> > Tucson, AZ
> > kennk at ix.netcom.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > 
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> > 
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
> >  
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  

 
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From hankb at theriver.com  Mon Jul 30 08:47:59 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:47:59 -0700
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AEB@NTFS2>
Message-ID: <3B65577F.F3B5BD61@theriver.com>

"Grkovich, Alex" wrote:
> 
> I don't know why some are "pandering" so much to "birders" coming into
> "butterflying". What on earth is going on?
> 

Alex -
Again I would ask you to relax and take a deep breath.  Why should it
disturb you so much that NABA and its chapters seeks to interest birders
(and photographers, and gardeners, and school children, and just plain
folks - most perhaps without your education in this field) in the
fascinating world of butterflies?  Do you really feel that only
academics and "professionals" have a right to be interested in
lepidoptery?
Nobody minds that you are "in it only for the science". We respect that
and thank you for adding to our knowledge. But why should you mind so
very much what is just a way of communicating among those of us without
your scientific training?  It's a big world out there.  Many folks -
many points of view.  If you disagree, fine - but it would be nice if
you were not so quick to condemn.  It adds nothing to the discussion.
Guess what.  Many of us great unwashed are also getting interested in
odonata.  Will (gasp) beetles be next?  And what if we learn to key out
plants?
Peace!

-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Mon Jul 30 09:19:40 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:19:40 -0400
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AEB@NTFS2>
Message-ID: <004101c118fa$4b0e3f00$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

Alex -

    It's the same old story - money.

    Think of all the money generated by the sales of "butterfly binoculars",
field guides, accessories, etc., and travel dollars that they bring to the
table.  You don't think the Texas Butterfly Festival is put on by the
Mission, TX Chamber of Commerce only because it's a fun event, do you?
Heck, if someone wanted to give you money to show them to a new butterfly
species for their life list, would you turn it down?  If yes, why?

    On the brighter side of the issue, however, is what the birders can
bring to the table - 1) new blood to the field (from the sound of many of
the postings on this list, there are not many younger people studying
butterflies in the field), 2) A huge increase in the numbers of people
seeing things out in the field (yeah, there are bound to be some incorrect
reports, but that is far outweighed by the potential of finding new sites,
etc.), 3) The potential of backing by public and private groups that have
heretofore been advocates for land acquisition, conservation, etc., for bird
species (they fence off Piping Plover nesting areas, but are the host plants
for a critical butterfly species protected? Not in my state.)

        Rather than moan and complain about it, the "traditional" butterfly
community should embrace the good points, try and educate the new people,
and ultimately roll with the changes to make the best of them.  Yes, it may
ultimately be a fad and the birders will lose interest and go away, but I
rather doubt it.

    Since the turn of the century, the ornithological community has changed
from a collector-based discipline to using field sightings,
catch-sample-and-release techniques, and minimally-invasive laboratory
study.  Specimens are still taken, but at a fraction of the former rates.

    Maybe in the future we will be able to catch a butterfly, take a tiny
portion of organic material, run a full-scale genetic analysis on it, and
release it unharmed.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
To: <kennk at ix.netcom.com>; <HpAzures at aol.com>; <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:13 AM
Subject: RE: Red-spotted Admirals??


> I don't know why some are "pandering" so much to "birders" coming into
> "butterflying". What on earth is going on?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kenn Kaufman [SMTP:kennk at ix.netcom.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 1:15 PM
> > To: HpAzures at aol.com; Leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject: Re: Red-spotted Admirals??
> >
> >
> > Harry Pavulaan wrote:
> >
> > > NABA has revised the common name of Limenitis arthemis astyanax to
> > > "Red-spotted Admiral".  I presume this was done in the name of
> > standardizing
> > > genus names.  Thus, all Limenitis (correctly Basilarchia?) are now
> > > "Admirals".  However, I wonder how many newcomers will now confuse Red
> > > Admirals with Red-spotted Admirals?
> >
> > My comments are not meant as a defense of NABA (their latest
> > checklist strikes me as a step backwards in many ways) but as
> > a clarification.  I just looked at the list, and actually they apply the
> > name "Red-spotted Admiral" only to Limenitis arthemis in a
> > larger sense.  They continue to apply "Red-spotted Purple" to
> > L. a. astyanax, and "White Admiral" to L. a. arthemis.   Not stated,
> > but presumed, I suppose, is that L. a. rubrofasciata would also
> > be a White Admiral, and L. a. arizonensis would also be a
> > Red-spotted Purple, under this system.   In practice, the name
> > "Red-spotted Admiral" wouldn't apply to anything we would see
> > in the field or in the trays.   The problem with having such a name
> > at all is that birders coming into "butterflying" bring along a
> > prejudice against using English names for subspecies, and
> > they may think it's "correct" to use the larger group name for
> > anything in this complex that they see.  ---  Anyone on this list
> > who has influence at NABA might suggest that their members
> > be encouraged to continue to use the more precise names for
> > these taxa, and to not use "Red-spotted Admiral" at all.
> >
> > Kenn Kaufman
> > Tucson, AZ
> > kennk at ix.netcom.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >
> >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From rworth at oda.state.or.us  Mon Jul 30 13:52:41 2001
From: rworth at oda.state.or.us (Richard Worth)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:52:41 -0700
Subject: Fwd: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies
Message-ID: <v04220800b78b4c742d70@[192.152.7.83]>

Hey all,

I thought folks might be interested in this latest release.  Seeing 
as how this "dead horse" still has involuntary twiches from time to 
time, I figured people could beat on it a little more until the 
silphids and flies won't even touch it. >;-)

Cheers, Rich

P.S.   I thoroughly enjoyed the Lep Soc Meeting and it seems a good 
time was had by all.


>
>Subject: biotech articles 7/21-27/01
>
>BIOTECH CORN
>July 24, 2001
>Associated Press.
>Philip Brasher
>ARLINGTON, Va. -- The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency was cited as
>saying Tuesday that Bt corn that is genetically engineered to make 
>its own pesticide poses little risk to monarch butterflies, and that 
>while there is a small chance that one in 100,000 monarch 
>caterpillars could be affected by toxic corn pollen, research 
>suggests even those larvae will mature into healthy butterflies.
>Zig Vaituzis, an EPA scientist who led a review of the crop's environmental
>impact, was quoted as saying, "The weight of evidence from the reviewed data
>indicate that there is no unreasonable hazard" to Monarchs or other 
>wildlife although one possible exception is the karner blue 
>butterfly, an endangered species that feeds on lupine plants that 
>could show up near corn crops in northern Wisconsin. Agency 
>officials were cited as saying they don't know how significant the 
>issue is but were consulting with the Fish and Wildlife Service on 
>whether to take action to protect the butterflies.
>The story recounts that Bt corn grabbed worldwide attention in 1999 after a
>laboratory study at Cornell University showed that pollen from the 
>corn would poison monarch larvae. That finding produced a public 
>outcry in Europe and calls from environmental groups to curb the 
>spread of genetically engineered crops.
>The story explains that the EPA's conclusion that the corn is 
>relatively harmless to monarch populations is based in part on field 
>studies coordinated last summer by the Agriculture Department in 
>Maryland, Iowa and Minnesota. Data from the studies have not been 
>published yet but were turned over to EPA for review.
>The agency has declined to release the data because of 
>confidentiality claims by biotech companies involved in the 
>research. Agency officials were cited as saying they hoped to 
>release the data before the Sept. 30 deadline for renewing the Bt 
>corn licenses.
>Critics of the biotech industry said the agency should not renew the 
>registrations until it has released the research data and allowed 
>the public to review and comment on it.
>Jane Rissler of the Union of Concerned Scientists was cited as saying that
>the two types of Bt corn that are up for renewal -- known in the 
>industry as Bt 11 and Mon 810 -- don't appear to produce enough 
>toxin to kill monarchs at pollen levels found in corn fields, 
>adding, "That's good news for monarchs."
>But she said the agency was not justified in allowing the continued planting
>of a third, more toxic type of Bt corn, developed by Syngenta. 
>Syngenta voluntarily dropped the product but has been given until 
>2003 to phase out its use.
>On the Net: EPA's biopesticide program:
>http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/index.htm

Richard A. Worth
Oregon Department of Agriculture
Plant Division
rworth at oda.state.or.us
(503) 986-6461
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From andpph at vaxa.rit.edu  Mon Jul 30 14:49:13 2001
From: andpph at vaxa.rit.edu (ADavidhazy)
Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:49:13 -0500
Subject: IMAGES from SCIENCE exhibition seeks participants - FYI
Message-ID: <3b659e19@news.isc.rit.edu>

School of Photographic Arts & Sciences 
Rochester Institute of Technology

IMAGES from SCIENCE

The School of Photographic Arts & Sciences at the Rochester (New York)
Institute of Technology is proud to organize and sponsor the exhibition, IMAGES
from SCIENCE, scheduled for fall of 2002. The organizers solicit images created
for the recording of scientific endeavors such as oceanography, geology,
biology, engineering, medicine, physics, or other related disciplines. 

IMAGES from SCIENCE is planned to be a showcase of photographs made in pursuit
of science. We would appreciate you sharing this announcement with others to
accomplish our goal of developing this unique international exhibition. 

Acceptance into this juried show will based on the photograph's impact, the
image's aesthetics, the degree of difficulty in the making of the photograph as
well as other related criteria. Judging, will take place in Rochester, March
2002. To be considered for this exhibition digital files must be submitted for
the judging process. A maximum of 4 images may be submitted for judging. JPEG
files with a resolution of 640 x 480 pixels should be mailed to
RITphoto at rit.edu by February 28, 2002. Make sure to include the word IMAGES in
the subject line of the message to which the images are attached. Along with
the e-mail submission, for each image, please include: 

                              * photographer and/or organization's name 
                              * title of the photograph 
                              * subject photographed 
                              * any other relevant data 
                              * imaging equipment used 

As of today (July 1, 2001), National Geographic magazine has agreed to be
partner of the exhibition by providing one of three judges. IMAGES from SCIENCE
will be on display in early fall of 2002 for a period of three weeks. Printed
catalogues and a web gallery will accompany the exhibition. Additional
information available on-line at 

                               http://IMAGES.rit.edu

posted here by Andrew Davidhazy - andpph at rit.edu
School of Photographic Arts & Sciences/RIT


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

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From monarch at saber.net  Mon Jul 30 14:52:38 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 11:52:38 -0700
Subject: Fwd: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies
References: <v04220800b78b4c742d70@[192.152.7.83]>
Message-ID: <3B65ACF6.46BA@saber.net>

> >Jane Rissler of the Union of Concerned Scientists 
> > she said the agency was not justified in allowing the continued planting
> >of a third, more toxic type of Bt corn, developed by Syngenta.
> >Syngenta voluntarily dropped the product but has been given until
> >2003 to phase out its use.

Jane Rissler neglected to mention this third, more toxic type of Bt corn
(Event 176) never gained more than 2% of the Bt corn market. It is not even
an issue anymore since Syngenta voluntarily dropped the product.

Paul Cherubini

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From rjparcelles at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 30 19:23:27 2001
From: rjparcelles at yahoo.com (Bob Parcelles,Jr.)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:23:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Check out Article
Message-ID: <20010730232327.2850.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

Check out this great article by Anne Kilmer...NATURE
POTPOURRI...ISSUE 12   " Butterfly Watching...no game for
sissies"

Go To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri

Bob Parcelles, Jr.
Pinellas Park, FL


=====
Bob Parcelles, Jr
Pinellas Park, FL
rjparcelles at yahoo.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri
http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=976131876
 "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin."
                       --William Shakespeare

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Mon Jul 30 19:30:31 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:30:31 -0400
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AEB@NTFS2> <004101c118fa$4b0e3f00$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <004801c1194f$a034a500$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


Clay Taylor wrote


> Alex -
>     It's the same old story - money.
>     Think of all the money generated by the sales of "butterfly
binoculars",
> field guides, accessories, etc., and travel dollars that they bring to
the
> table.  You don't think the Texas Butterfly Festival is put on by the
> Mission, TX Chamber of Commerce only because it's a fun event, do you?
> Heck, if someone wanted to give you money to show them to a new butterfly
> species for their life list, would you turn it down?  If yes, why?
>

Well, it took guts to say that. Money as a motive and then a corrupter is
such a big topic with me because of all the greed in the church world - Do
they still sell bibles in Christian bookstores?  (My wife works part time
at one. I at times tell her to just quit.)

I think Alex and I come from the same point of view. I don't think people
like he and I are against any of the very _potentially_ positive things the
birders are bringing to the area of the broad multifaceted world of
interest in Lepidoptera. It is what is being destroyed (in our view) of the
scientific aspect of it. And to me, the biggest part of what I mean by
scientific is the preservation of them via biological and taxonomic
information on them.  By lumping all the aphrodites into one Aphrodite
destroys the existent knowledge - there are several Aphrodites - some much
scarcer than others. This knowledge was once in every Field Guide and
state/regional book published _ for new and average lepsters_  till the
dumbed down could-be-written-by-anybody ones started coming out. There are
as many subspecies found in my kid's Little Golden Book of butterflies -
and it only cost $3.

Many of today's Field Guides are raped versions of Klots, Dornfield,
Grath/Tilden, Higgins/Riley and on and on. They are gooooood money makers
though. There is a reason I do not own one single Glassberg book. I agree
with Alex, and challenge those in the east who do not have the old Klots
book to get one and use it for just one season. While some areas are
definately out of date, one might be surprised how ofen it would become
consulted along with Harris, Allen, Gochfeld, Brock, Klassen, Heitzman,
Neilsen, Emmel, and then one would be led naturally to Jordan & Rothschild,
Scudder, Seitz, Blaint, deeper and deeper.

Next, there is no comparison to be made between _birds and Lepidoptera_ in
many many areas. For example, I can not say "between birds and butterflies"
as that would be inaccurate. The equivalent would be "between birds_ and
_butterflies, moths and skippers."  It is dumbed down immediately when one
says "birder - butterflyer".  Thus, when I say there is no comparison
between birds and Lepidoptera - I am not trying to be smart, elitist,
scientific, or any such thing in using the word Lepidoptera. It's just
accurate.

For one (be they professional or avocational) to say "I am a birder" is
exactly the same as saying "I am an Ornithologist" as nothing is left out.
Because Lepidoptera are butterflies, skippers and moths I can not say I am
a butterflyer because most of my interest is in skippers. We have had no
problem calling ourselves lepidopterists for a couple centuries. I don't
mind the terms lepster or lepper as a slang, but butterflyer is way off
base - unless that is all that one is. A moth-er, skipper-er, or
butterfly-er. Requireing a birder to call himself such represents him fine.

Asking a moth-er to call theirself a butterflyer would be a big deal to the
moth-er. The very fact that many cross over birders probably don't see
why - says it all.

Ron


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Mon Jul 30 19:45:23 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:45:23 -0400
Subject: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies
References: <v04220800b78b4c742d70@[192.152.7.83]>
Message-ID: <005701c11951$b3c593c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>

Hi - Rich   Actually it is not a dead horse as long any one "side's" information is later demonstrated to be false. After that, for those in error to continue to spread falsehood just exposes them as frauds or people trying to make a buck off sensationalism. And if they will lie about one thing they will lie about anything.

I Thank you very much for posting this. Not because it fits a side I favor - but because I need all the information to make up my own mind. Personally, I don't like genetically engineered anything. 
Ron

--- Original Message ----- 
  From: Richard Worth 
  To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 1:52 PM
  Subject: Fwd: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies


  Hey all,

  I thought folks might be interested in this latest release. Seeing as how this "dead horse" still has involuntary twiches from time to time, I figured people could beat on it a little more until the silphids and flies won't even touch it. >;-)

  Cheers, Rich

  P.S. I thoroughly enjoyed the Lep Soc Meeting and it seems a good time was had by all.




    Subject: biotech articles 7/21-27/01

    BIOTECH CORN
    July 24, 2001
    Associated Press.
    Philip Brasher
    ARLINGTON, Va. -- The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency was cited as
    saying Tuesday that Bt corn that is genetically engineered to make its own pesticide poses little risk to monarch butterflies, and that while there is a small chance that one in 100,000 monarch caterpillars could be affected by toxic corn pollen, research suggests even those larvae will mature into healthy butterflies.
    Zig Vaituzis, an EPA scientist who led a review of the crop's environmental
    impact, was quoted as saying, "The weight of evidence from the reviewed data
    indicate that there is no unreasonable hazard" to Monarchs or other wildlife although one possible exception is the karner blue butterfly, an endangered species that feeds on lupine plants that could show up near corn crops in northern Wisconsin. Agency officials were cited as saying they don't know how significant the issue is but were consulting with the Fish and Wildlife Service on whether to take action to protect the butterflies.
    The story recounts that Bt corn grabbed worldwide attention in 1999 after a
    laboratory study at Cornell University showed that pollen from the corn would poison monarch larvae. That finding produced a public outcry in Europe and calls from environmental groups to curb the spread of genetically engineered crops.
    The story explains that the EPA's conclusion that the corn is relatively harmless to monarch populations is based in part on field studies coordinated last summer by the Agriculture Department in Maryland, Iowa and Minnesota. Data from the studies have not been published yet but were turned over to EPA for review.
    The agency has declined to release the data because of confidentiality claims by biotech companies involved in the research. Agency officials were cited as saying they hoped to release the data before the Sept. 30 deadline for renewing the Bt corn licenses.
    Critics of the biotech industry said the agency should not renew the registrations until it has released the research data and allowed the public to review and comment on it.
    Jane Rissler of the Union of Concerned Scientists was cited as saying that
    the two types of Bt corn that are up for renewal -- known in the industry as Bt 11 and Mon 810 -- don't appear to produce enough toxin to kill monarchs at pollen levels found in corn fields, adding, "That's good news for monarchs."
    But she said the agency was not justified in allowing the continued planting
    of a third, more toxic type of Bt corn, developed by Syngenta. Syngenta voluntarily dropped the product but has been given until 2003 to phase out its use.
    On the Net: EPA's biopesticide program:
    http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/index.htm


  Richard A. Worth
  Oregon Department of Agriculture
  Plant Division
  rworth at oda.state.or.us
  (503) 986-6461 
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From monarch at saber.net  Mon Jul 30 21:11:08 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:11:08 -0700
Subject: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies
References: <v04220800b78b4c742d70@[192.152.7.83]> <005701c11951$b3c593c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <3B6605AC.5ADC@saber.net>

Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> Personally, I don't like genetically engineered anything.?
> Ron

Hello Ron,

I was wondering what your opinion is of the Biotech Industry
argument that the increased yields made possible by GMO crops
reduces the need to chop down wilderness in order to make room for
crops?  Do you think this is a valid argument and desirable trade-off?

Also, if geneticist Pat Foley is listening, I would be interested in his opinion.
If I am not mistaken, I seem to remember Pat saying that yield improvements
via GMO crops could even make it possible (theoretically) to take some
existing Ag land out of production and restore it to wilderness.

Paul Cherubini

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From gatrelle at tils-ttr.org  Mon Jul 30 23:47:15 2001
From: gatrelle at tils-ttr.org (Ron Gatrelle)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:47:15 -0400
Subject: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies
References: <v04220800b78b4c742d70@[192.152.7.83]> <005701c11951$b3c593c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B6605AC.5ADC@saber.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c11973$8044a3c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cherubini" <monarch at saber.net>
To: <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies


> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
>
> > Personally, I don't like genetically engineered anything.
> > Ron
>
> Hello Ron,
>
> I was wondering what your opinion is of the Biotech Industry
> argument that the increased yields made possible by GMO crops
> reduces the need to chop down wilderness in order to make room for
> crops?  Do you think this is a valid argument and desirable trade-off?
>
> Also, if geneticist Pat Foley is listening, I would be interested in his
opinion.
> If I am not mistaken, I seem to remember Pat saying that yield
improvements
> via GMO crops could even make it possible (theoretically) to take some
> existing Ag land out of production and restore it to wilderness.
>
> Paul Cherubini
>

Hi Paul,

Don't like is the operative part of my statement. I am old enough to be
old-fashioned in many ways when it comes to _new_technology. I at least
admit this to myself. I just don't like the idea of _______________.  To be
wise one has to know their weaknesses as well as their strengths - perhaps
even more so. There is old technology I am totally comfortable with - radio
waves passing through my body and brain 24 hrs a day.  Cell phone
"radiation" - I have my guard up.

Everything about genetic Biotech reminds me of the movie The Fly. We have a
long history of TV and movie si-fi telling the average person to watch out
for the mad scientist. I wonder if this is the base for this in many of us
in the US.  Is the fear fact based or culture based. I think I am willing
to be swayed - but I need a lot of reassurance from good impartial
science - and time.  Now, since I have to admit that my aversion to Biotech
is actually fear based (and I thus naturally lean anti it) I do not
appreciate it at all when scare mongers come along and sway me by what they
say is honest info and then later find out they are just agenda or money
orientated and have falsely applied the information or flat out lied.

There are some people who are very much against blood transfusions due to
their fear of getting AIDS. They would die in the hospital before they
would agree to a simple (safe) transfusion which would save their life.
They are already over the edge and they do not need someone to come along
at tie a lead weight to their phobia.  If genetic engineered whatever is
actually good (or will be once the kinks are worked out) I need to be open
to change. I have heard a lot of negative about BtCorn to humans, animals
and of course Monarchs.  If this turns out to be just a bunch of "they sky
is falling crap" it will really tick me off.  Richard's forwarded post
points in that direction. If I come around to accepting - if not
endorsing - BtCorn and other such products it will not be because I sell
pesticide or it is my natural inclination. It will be because it is
actually pretty safe and the benefits will outweigh the risks.  That is my
up front answer to your question.

My best to you
Ron


 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 31 00:17:56 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:17:56 -0500
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
In-Reply-To: <004801c1194f$a034a500$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AEB@NTFS2>
 <004101c118fa$4b0e3f00$10e3fea9@s0022921733>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010730224028.02890210@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Ron,
    For years I just called myself an Entomologist. Then I moved to a part 
of the country where the man on the street knows what an Entomologist is - 
an Exterminator! As I definitely do not agree with wholesale execution of 
insects, even though I am a collector, I started calling myself a 
Micropaleoentomologist. Since I retired I have backed off and now refer to 
myself as an Historical Biologist. When I am out just enjoying butterflies 
I am an Aurelian.
    Samuel Scudder probably comes closest to a role model for my 
professional avocations.  As for common names for admirals he gives:
      *Basilarchia astyanax*
Gosse: Red spotted purple.
Packard: red spotted purple butterfly.
Ross: orange spotted butterfly.
Maynard: blue-banded butterfly.
Harris: Ephestion butterfly.
Saunders: Ursula butterfly.
Emmons: gooseberry butterfly.
      *Basilarchia proserpina*
The bastard purple.
      *Basilarchia arthemis*
Gosse: The banded purple.
Emmons: Artemis limenite.
Ross: circled emperor.
Maynard: white banded butterfly.
Scudder: sylvan Basilarchia.

............Chris Durden

At 07:30 PM 7/30/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>Clay Taylor wrote
>
>
> > Alex -
> >     It's the same old story - money.
> >     Think of all the money generated by the sales of "butterfly
>binoculars",
> > field guides, accessories, etc., and travel dollars that they bring to
>the
> > table.  You don't think the Texas Butterfly Festival is put on by the
> > Mission, TX Chamber of Commerce only because it's a fun event, do you?
> > Heck, if someone wanted to give you money to show them to a new butterfly
> > species for their life list, would you turn it down?  If yes, why?
> >
>
>Well, it took guts to say that. Money as a motive and then a corrupter is
>such a big topic with me because of all the greed in the church world - Do
>they still sell bibles in Christian bookstores?  (My wife works part time
>at one. I at times tell her to just quit.)
>
>I think Alex and I come from the same point of view. I don't think people
>like he and I are against any of the very _potentially_ positive things the
>birders are bringing to the area of the broad multifaceted world of
>interest in Lepidoptera. It is what is being destroyed (in our view) of the
>scientific aspect of it. And to me, the biggest part of what I mean by
>scientific is the preservation of them via biological and taxonomic
>information on them.  By lumping all the aphrodites into one Aphrodite
>destroys the existent knowledge - there are several Aphrodites - some much
>scarcer than others. This knowledge was once in every Field Guide and
>state/regional book published _ for new and average lepsters_  till the
>dumbed down could-be-written-by-anybody ones started coming out. There are
>as many subspecies found in my kid's Little Golden Book of butterflies -
>and it only cost $3.
>
>Many of today's Field Guides are raped versions of Klots, Dornfield,
>Grath/Tilden, Higgins/Riley and on and on. They are gooooood money makers
>though. There is a reason I do not own one single Glassberg book. I agree
>with Alex, and challenge those in the east who do not have the old Klots
>book to get one and use it for just one season. While some areas are
>definately out of date, one might be surprised how ofen it would become
>consulted along with Harris, Allen, Gochfeld, Brock, Klassen, Heitzman,
>Neilsen, Emmel, and then one would be led naturally to Jordan & Rothschild,
>Scudder, Seitz, Blaint, deeper and deeper.
>
>Next, there is no comparison to be made between _birds and Lepidoptera_ in
>many many areas. For example, I can not say "between birds and butterflies"
>as that would be inaccurate. The equivalent would be "between birds_ and
>_butterflies, moths and skippers."  It is dumbed down immediately when one
>says "birder - butterflyer".  Thus, when I say there is no comparison
>between birds and Lepidoptera - I am not trying to be smart, elitist,
>scientific, or any such thing in using the word Lepidoptera. It's just
>accurate.
>
>For one (be they professional or avocational) to say "I am a birder" is
>exactly the same as saying "I am an Ornithologist" as nothing is left out.
>Because Lepidoptera are butterflies, skippers and moths I can not say I am
>a butterflyer because most of my interest is in skippers. We have had no
>problem calling ourselves lepidopterists for a couple centuries. I don't
>mind the terms lepster or lepper as a slang, but butterflyer is way off
>base - unless that is all that one is. A moth-er, skipper-er, or
>butterfly-er. Requireing a birder to call himself such represents him fine.
>
>Asking a moth-er to call theirself a butterflyer would be a big deal to the
>moth-er. The very fact that many cross over birders probably don't see
>why - says it all.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>



 
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From bmw60 at aol.com  Tue Jul 31 00:26:27 2001
From: bmw60 at aol.com (BMW60)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 04:26:27 GMT
Subject: Arizona Moth Results
Message-ID: <20010731002627.23423.00001764@ng-cm1.aol.com>

Hey all, this is Bill in Tucson.  Had a banner year for the hard to get stuff. 
Seems that a lot of the mainstream stuff was a little scarce though.  A.
Occulea and E. caleta were almost non-existant.  C. splendons a little low but
you could count on seeing 10 or so most nights.  E. oslari started off great. 
We estimated to have 500 individuals in one night at Pena Blanca on the 16th of
July.  The A. paminas started comming in early the same night.  By 10 PM we had
about 500 females on the sheet.  At 2AM the male invasion started and by 4AM we
estimated between 3 and 5 thousand were on the one sheet.  We have never seen
anything like it.  The sheet was so full there was no more room for any more
individuals.  They started to pile up at the base of the sheet and ended up
being 3 inches deep, 6 feet wide and 2 feet in front of the sheet.  We deeply
regretted not having a camera to see such a spectacle but made up for it 2 days
later.  The numbers were about half but still a sight I couldnt imagine being
equalled anywhere.  This time we had the camera.  We managed 6 A. iris these 2
nights also.  Nothing else notable on these 2 nights.  We then went to Harshaw
Creek and had our best night ever for A. patagoniensis and A. iris.  We saw 18
patagoniensis and 11 iris, all males. (Shoot)  Also saw a Daritas howardi, a
first for us at Harshaw.  The activity was quite slow except for what we were
looking for.  (When was the last time that happened)  Our next trip took us to
some unknown road about 10 miles west of Pena Blanca.  We took 4 R. cincta
including 1 female.  S. smithi and A. anona were also present in fair numbers. 
Lots of cool arctiads too.  As usualy A. pamina and E. oslari were present in
ridiculous numbers.  S. montana was also present in large numbers.  Our next
trip took us to the Peloncillo Mountains on the New Mexico border.  Wow,  17 A.
Randa, will our luck never stop?  Time to return to Pena Blanca once again.  9
different Saturnids, (Ties our best night), including H. gloveri which we have
NEVER seen at Pena Blanca.  Also took E. crameri and M. occulta, both hard
catches for us.  Still waiting for our female R. cincta pupa (Courtesy Jim
Tuttle) to emerge so we can start calling.  Hope its not too late in the
season.  Well folks, thats about it.  We will still be hammering it at a
somewhat slower pace from her on out, but will keep going.  Hope everyone else
did as well.  Good hunting,  Bill in Tucson

 
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From ericgibert at yahoo.fr  Tue Jul 31 03:35:16 2001
From: ericgibert at yahoo.fr (Eric Gibert)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 00:35:16 -0700
Subject: ID please... easy one :-)
Message-ID: <d6ef24c.0107302335.1abdf6c2@posting.google.com>

Hello,

I would like your help for the Id of this strange "butterfly" (maybe
it is not!) quite common in southern Europe. As I am French, please
excuse my imperfect English (and lack of vocabulary... I do not have a
dictionary here).

Its body looks like a bulky bee, it flaps its wings very quickly, and,
like a colibri, it can stays on a spot without moving. It has got a
roster (mouthpart) like a butterfly to sucks the flowers.

If you have its english/French common name, or its Latin name, I will
browse the web for more info. I have to say that I am quite curious
about this strange insect which combines bee, butterfly and colibri
:-)

Thank you for your help,

Eric

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 31 05:04:38 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 05:04:38 -0400
Subject: collections are in the act of ....
In-Reply-To: HpAzures@aol.com
        "Re: collections are in the act of ...." (Jul 28, 12:46pm)
References: <ae.184b63fb.28944672@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1010731050442.ZM15486@Gochfeld>

Harry, 

I agree that scanning and electronic documentation of specimens is a 
valuable undertaking; that is if we assume that the collection catalogue 
has already been data-based (a valuable neologism). 

But as you say the permanency of electronic data is in question for 
various reasons. 

I have large quantities of data on punch cards (but alas, no punch card 
reader). I have 8" floppies for my PDP-8 which languishes in my son's 
basement.  

I have 5 1/4 inch floppies filled with text and data generated on a 
CPM-based operating system which we were assured in 1980 would be the 
state of the art. 

If you bought beta-max you know what I mean. 

Yesterday I went to order a new laptop with a very fast CD-rom drive and 
was told that was on it's way to be obsolete. 

So electronic media really need to be curated as vigorously as the 
specimens themselves. 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 31 05:40:07 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 05:40:07 -0400
Subject: Allergic and irritant reactions to plants and insects 
In-Reply-To: Paul Cherubini <monarch@saber.net>
        "Eating Leps or their host plants could be worse than drinking a little diluted insecticide" (Jul 27, 12:20pm)
References: <20010727.104520.-168899.1.mbpi@juno.com>  <3B61BF15.4050@saber.net>
Message-ID: <1010731054013.ZM15486@Gochfeld>

The mention of skin rashes and eye irritation from plants and insects is 
not new, but it is obvious that under certain cases these reactions can 
be severe and debilitating. 

Irritant materials are generally "irritating" to a most people with some 
variability in how individuals respond. And these reactions generally 
involve a direct toxic effect on tissues or cells. Thus fiber glass and 
sandpaper are irritating and there are many plant chemicals that are 
irritants as well. 

Allergic responses tend to be more idiosyncratic. Some are common (for 
example 5-20% of a population might become sensitized to nickel or 
mango) while others are rare (less than 1% of exposed people become 
sensitized). And the reaction involves the immune system. 

But, there may be source variability as well as receptor variability. 
Milkweeds differ in their alkaloid composition, accounting for the 
different palatability of the Monarch's that grow on them. Perhaps they 
vary as well in their ability to inflict painful responses. 

I regularly pull up Common Milkweed by hand and am exposed to the milky 
"sap", but I certainly anticipate that if it ever got in my eye it would 
be irritating. 

Another difference is that irritant reactions may occur immediately 
(within seconds or minutes).  Allergic reactions may occur within 
minutes (immediate hypersensitivity) or may take 24-48 hours to develop 
(delayed hypersensitivity).  These represent different immune 
mechanisms. 

It would be interesting to know how many people response adversely and 
details about the nature of the response (localized at the point of 
contact or general; symmetrical or asymmetrical). 

Michael Gochfeld


 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 31 05:43:00 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 05:43:00 -0400
Subject: sore eyes
In-Reply-To: Paul Cherubini <monarch@saber.net>
        "Eating Leps or their host plants could be worse than drinking a little diluted insecticide" (Jul 27, 12:20pm)
References: <20010727.104520.-168899.1.mbpi@juno.com>  <3B61BF15.4050@saber.net>
Message-ID: <1010731054304.ZM15486@Gochfeld>

I hit send before signing the previous message on allergens and 
irritants. 

However, the last thing I got in my eyes was insect repellant which I 
"carefully" sprayed on my neck and ears.  

The intense burning (fortunately only in one eye) ruined the field trip.

However, it only lasted for about 10 hours (compared to the report of 
milkweed sap conjunctivitis lasting for two days), so I guess if you 
have the choice of what to spray in your eye, go for the repellent. 

Mike Gochfeld 

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 31 06:13:17 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 06:13:17 -0400
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
Message-ID: <1010731061323.ZM23950@Gochfeld>

With regard to David Moskowitz' recent photographing of a Queen (Danaus 
gilippus) in central New Jersey,  Jim Springer wrote: 

-----------------------------------------------------
Mike,

I imagine that this Queen has been human assisted.  Do you know of any 
other reports from NJ?

Thanks,
Jim
=====================================================
GOCHFELD'S RESPONSE

Jim,

I know of no other records from NJ. It sounds like a reasonable thing to 
 "imagine" that it was human assisted, but there's no reason why strong 
 flying Danaus butterflies couldn't show up out of range. 

One kind of assist might be school releases, but I don't know whether 
Queens are widely used for such purposes. 

David looked closely to see what might be a "fingerprint", but 
apparently concluded it probably wasn't.  Also the photographs show an 
extremely fresh individual, suggesting a local emergence rather than a 
long-distance flight. 

Therefore another more likely kind might be horticultural trade in 
Milkweeds.  We  are beginning to see Scarlet Milkweed (Asclepias 
curassavica) in nurseries. If plants are brought up from a more 
tropical region for sale here, they could easily transport a 
caterpillar unharms.  I bought a Pipevine at a Florida nursery and when 
I got it home (NJ) it had six Polydamas larvae on it. They devoured the 
plant thereby committing suicide---so no inadvertent introduction there. 

There have been other southern vagrants in NJ and neighboring states, 
going back a century or more, when presumably human assists would have 
been less frequent.   

The term "vagrant" implies that the creature got to an unusual location 
on its own, so perhaps the term "accidental" is less value laden, since 
 it makes no judgement as to how the occurrence occurred. 

Anyway it's a fascinating record and the suggestion that it might be a 
"western" source will prompt closer scrutiny of David's photos. Perhaps 
those on the leps-list will email David and invite him to email the 
photos to them for examination. 

Mike Gochfeld



=====================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: David Moskowitz [mailto:Dmoskowi at ecolsciences.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:14 AM
To: springer at naba.org
Cc: sightings at naba.org
Subject: Queen in central NJ!!!!!!!!


Dear Jim: I found and photographed a male Queen (yes a Queen) in East
Windsor, NJ yesterday. The butterfly was nectaring on swamp milkweed,
canada thistle, and dogbane in a wet meadow/old field. I have great
photos of the upper and lower surfaces. I can't find any records for
this species in NJ. Burger and Gochfield don't list it, even as
accidental, the USGS web page doesn't show NJ records or even anything 
closer than NC, the Mulberry Wing NY sightings don't include it, and 
it's don't listed as a rare stray in the Butterflies of Delmarva. 

I assume, it is either a release, an escape, or possibly a stray. The 
wher I found it, is only about 1/4 mile from exit 8 on the turnpike and 
there are really only farm fields and a little development in between. 
Maybe it was carried along by a truck or other vehicle?

Now for some details on the butterfly. It was nectaring and patrolling. 
I watched it and photographed it for about 10 minutes before I lost it 
flew through some very dense rose and I lost it. I could not relocate 
it. Unfortunately I did not realize how unusual the sighting was until I 
got home last night and started checking its distribution out. 
Otherwise, I probably would have collected it. But, I did take detailed 
field notes and nice close up photos.

The butterfly is in very good condition. It has a very slight tear (beak 
mark?) on the hind wing margin. There is some loss of scales on the
upper surface of one forewing and a series of lines on the other that 
could suggest the lines of a fingerprint. However, there is no evidence 
on the photos of scale loss on the underside of the wing opposite these 
areas of scale loss on the upper side that would suggest that someone 
had held the wings. I would think that holding the wings in such a way 
that would create an impression of the lines of a fingerprint on one 
surface would certainly remove scales on the other surface. I think I'm 
going to try it with a monarch and see what happens.  The butterfly also
has pretty distinct white scaling along the black veins of the
undersurface of the hindwing.  My books seem to suggest that this is 
related to the western populations of the species.

.

Dave Moskowitz       



 
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From ngd at ceh.ac.uk  Tue Jul 31 07:37:52 2001
From: ngd at ceh.ac.uk (Nick Greatorex-Davies)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:37:52 +0100
Subject: ID please... easy one :-)
Message-ID: <sb66a6bd.009@wpo.nerc.ac.uk>

Eric,

Sounds to me like one of the bee hawk-moths (Lep.: Sphingidae): possibly either the Broad-bordered Bee Hawk-moth (Hamaris fuciformis) or the Narrow-bordered Bee Hawk-moth (Hamaris tityrus). They look most like bees with their partially transparent wings and hover and nectar (with their long proboscis) from flowers like hummingbirds. The Hummingbird Hawk-moth (Macroglossum stellataruum) is another possibility but this has basically brown forewings and orange hind wings.

Regards

Nick Greatorex-Davies
CEH Monks Wood, Huntingdon, UK.

>>> Eric Gibert <ericgibert at yahoo.fr> 31/07/01 08:35:16 >>>
Hello,

I would like your help for the Id of this strange "butterfly" (maybe
it is not!) quite common in southern Europe. As I am French, please
excuse my imperfect English (and lack of vocabulary... I do not have a
dictionary here).

Its body looks like a bulky bee, it flaps its wings very quickly, and,
like a colibri, it can stays on a spot without moving. It has got a
roster (mouthpart) like a butterfly to sucks the flowers.

If you have its english/French common name, or its Latin name, I will
browse the web for more info. I have to say that I am quite curious
about this strange insect which combines bee, butterfly and colibri
:-)

Thank you for your help,

Eric

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

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From kahanpaa at gstar.astro.helsinki.fi  Tue Jul 31 07:08:26 2001
From: kahanpaa at gstar.astro.helsinki.fi (Jere Kahanpaa)
Date: 31 Jul 2001 11:08:26 GMT
Subject: ID please... easy one :-)
References: <d6ef24c.0107302335.1abdf6c2@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <9k63ja$f43$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>

Hi, 

Eric Gibert <ericgibert at yahoo.fr> wrote:
> I would like your help for the Id of this strange "butterfly" (maybe
> it is not!) quite common in southern Europe. As I am French, please
> excuse my imperfect English (and lack of vocabulary... I do not have a
> dictionary here).
> Its body looks like a bulky bee, it flaps its wings very quickly, and,
> like a colibri, it can stays on a spot without moving. It has got a
> roster (mouthpart) like a butterfly to sucks the flowers.
> If you have its english/French common name, or its Latin name, I will
> browse the web for more info. I have to say that I am quite curious
> about this strange insect which combines bee, butterfly and colibri
> :-)

This sound a lot like a Bee Haw-moth (genus Hemaris, french name 'Sphinx Gaz?'). 
You can find images of both collected specimens and moths in flight at

http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/insecta/lepidoptera/ditrysia/sphingoidea/sphingidae/macroglossinae/hemaris/index.htm

Jere Kahanp??

 
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From agrkovich at tmpeng.com  Tue Jul 31 09:49:06 2001
From: agrkovich at tmpeng.com (Grkovich, Alex)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:49:06 -0400
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
Message-ID: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378B0B@NTFS2>

Queens have been seen all up and down the Mississippi Valley, also in sw
Ohio and now in southern Michigan. To me, it is not at all a stretch to
suspect that they would stray into New Jersey.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Michael Gochfeld [SMTP:gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU]
> Sent:	Tuesday, July 31, 2001 6:13 AM
> To:	leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Cc:	dmoskowi at ecolsciences.com; hootowls5 at home.com; springer at naba.org;
> gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU
> Subject:	Queen in NJ: what should its status be
> 
> With regard to David Moskowitz' recent photographing of a Queen (Danaus 
> gilippus) in central New Jersey,  Jim Springer wrote: 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Mike,
> 
> I imagine that this Queen has been human assisted.  Do you know of any 
> other reports from NJ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jim
> =====================================================
> GOCHFELD'S RESPONSE
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I know of no other records from NJ. It sounds like a reasonable thing to 
>  "imagine" that it was human assisted, but there's no reason why strong 
>  flying Danaus butterflies couldn't show up out of range. 
> 
> One kind of assist might be school releases, but I don't know whether 
> Queens are widely used for such purposes. 
> 
> David looked closely to see what might be a "fingerprint", but 
> apparently concluded it probably wasn't.  Also the photographs show an 
> extremely fresh individual, suggesting a local emergence rather than a 
> long-distance flight. 
> 
> Therefore another more likely kind might be horticultural trade in 
> Milkweeds.  We  are beginning to see Scarlet Milkweed (Asclepias 
> curassavica) in nurseries. If plants are brought up from a more 
> tropical region for sale here, they could easily transport a 
> caterpillar unharms.  I bought a Pipevine at a Florida nursery and when 
> I got it home (NJ) it had six Polydamas larvae on it. They devoured the 
> plant thereby committing suicide---so no inadvertent introduction there. 
> 
> There have been other southern vagrants in NJ and neighboring states, 
> going back a century or more, when presumably human assists would have 
> been less frequent.   
> 
> The term "vagrant" implies that the creature got to an unusual location 
> on its own, so perhaps the term "accidental" is less value laden, since 
>  it makes no judgement as to how the occurrence occurred. 
> 
> Anyway it's a fascinating record and the suggestion that it might be a 
> "western" source will prompt closer scrutiny of David's photos. Perhaps 
> those on the leps-list will email David and invite him to email the 
> photos to them for examination. 
> 
> Mike Gochfeld
> 
> 
> 
> =====================================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Moskowitz [mailto:Dmoskowi at ecolsciences.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:14 AM
> To: springer at naba.org
> Cc: sightings at naba.org
> Subject: Queen in central NJ!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Dear Jim: I found and photographed a male Queen (yes a Queen) in East
> Windsor, NJ yesterday. The butterfly was nectaring on swamp milkweed,
> canada thistle, and dogbane in a wet meadow/old field. I have great
> photos of the upper and lower surfaces. I can't find any records for
> this species in NJ. Burger and Gochfield don't list it, even as
> accidental, the USGS web page doesn't show NJ records or even anything 
> closer than NC, the Mulberry Wing NY sightings don't include it, and 
> it's don't listed as a rare stray in the Butterflies of Delmarva. 
> 
> I assume, it is either a release, an escape, or possibly a stray. The 
> wher I found it, is only about 1/4 mile from exit 8 on the turnpike and 
> there are really only farm fields and a little development in between. 
> Maybe it was carried along by a truck or other vehicle?
> 
> Now for some details on the butterfly. It was nectaring and patrolling. 
> I watched it and photographed it for about 10 minutes before I lost it 
> flew through some very dense rose and I lost it. I could not relocate 
> it. Unfortunately I did not realize how unusual the sighting was until I 
> got home last night and started checking its distribution out. 
> Otherwise, I probably would have collected it. But, I did take detailed 
> field notes and nice close up photos.
> 
> The butterfly is in very good condition. It has a very slight tear (beak 
> mark?) on the hind wing margin. There is some loss of scales on the
> upper surface of one forewing and a series of lines on the other that 
> could suggest the lines of a fingerprint. However, there is no evidence 
> on the photos of scale loss on the underside of the wing opposite these 
> areas of scale loss on the upper side that would suggest that someone 
> had held the wings. I would think that holding the wings in such a way 
> that would create an impression of the lines of a fingerprint on one 
> surface would certainly remove scales on the other surface. I think I'm 
> going to try it with a monarch and see what happens.  The butterfly also
> has pretty distinct white scaling along the black veins of the
> undersurface of the hindwing.  My books seem to suggest that this is 
> related to the western populations of the species.
> 
> .
> 
> Dave Moskowitz       
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Jul 31 10:20:32 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:20:32 -0600
Subject: Allergic and irritant reactions to plants and insects
References: <20010727.104520.-168899.1.mbpi@juno.com> <3B61BF15.4050@saber.net>
 <1010731054013.ZM15486@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <004301c119cd$88a21c00$4963a58e@allez123>

I friend of mine was "in to" gathering and eating wild plants.  Milkweed
pods-  he claimed was high in protein.  For human consumption boil pods in
water clearing away the white froth that gathered on the water's surface.
When water was clear, cut up pods and cook in butter.

There is a reason why we stay away from cultivating so many plants.  they
taste awful.

Martin Bailey,

cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
phone/fax   306 842-8936

102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
Weyburn, SK., Canada.
S4H 2X3


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gochfeld" <gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU>
To: <monarch at saber.net>; <LEPS-L at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:40 AM
Subject: Allergic and irritant reactions to plants and insects


> The mention of skin rashes and eye irritation from plants and insects is
> not new, but it is obvious that under certain cases these reactions can
> be severe and debilitating.
>
> Irritant materials are generally "irritating" to a most people with some
> variability in how individuals respond. And these reactions generally
> involve a direct toxic effect on tissues or cells. Thus fiber glass and
> sandpaper are irritating and there are many plant chemicals that are
> irritants as well.
>
> Allergic responses tend to be more idiosyncratic. Some are common (for
> example 5-20% of a population might become sensitized to nickel or
> mango) while others are rare (less than 1% of exposed people become
> sensitized). And the reaction involves the immune system.
>
> But, there may be source variability as well as receptor variability.
> Milkweeds differ in their alkaloid composition, accounting for the
> different palatability of the Monarch's that grow on them. Perhaps they
> vary as well in their ability to inflict painful responses.
>
> I regularly pull up Common Milkweed by hand and am exposed to the milky
> "sap", but I certainly anticipate that if it ever got in my eye it would
> be irritating.
>
> Another difference is that irritant reactions may occur immediately
> (within seconds or minutes).  Allergic reactions may occur within
> minutes (immediate hypersensitivity) or may take 24-48 hours to develop
> (delayed hypersensitivity).  These represent different immune
> mechanisms.
>
> It would be interesting to know how many people response adversely and
> details about the nature of the response (localized at the point of
> contact or general; symmetrical or asymmetrical).
>
> Michael Gochfeld
>
>
>
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>
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From HpAzures at aol.com  Tue Jul 31 10:44:36 2001
From: HpAzures at aol.com (HpAzures at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:44:36 EDT
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
Message-ID: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com>

Mike Gochfeld wrote of the recent Queen report from New Jersey:

<<
It sounds like a reasonable thing to "imagine" that it was human assisted, but there's no reason why strong flying Danaus butterflies couldn't show up out of range. 
>>

NOTE - see: 
http://www.naba.org/sightings/queen1.jpg
http://www.naba.org/sightings/queen2.jpg
http://www.naba.org/sightings/queen3.jpg

I tend to agree with Mike.  While there has been much focus on accidental or deliberate releases of butterflies out of their known range, little credit is given to either the abilities of butterflies to stray out of their "normal" range or on the impact that the increasing numbers of observers are having on reporting.

Queens, remember, are well-known migrants in the midwest, ranging seasonally WAY up into the plains states, even the Great Lakes region.  Check out the map at:

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/lepid/bflyusa/usa/91.htm

While east-coast Queens are not well-documented for such long-distance travels, they do apparently move north and arrive as far as N.C. during most years.  The historical east-coast north record is Martha's Vineyard, MA.  With the increasing numbers of observers nationwide, especially in the urban northeast, and with the ease of reporting (via NABA or various online discussion groups), it comes as no surprise that such observations are being reported.  

Recent Gulf Fritillary reports in the northeast have also been suspect as releases, but there have been several historical records from New York City and Long Island (ref: Shapiro's "Butterflies and Skippers of New York").

I did feel suspicious about the perceived fingerprint on the Queen's wing, but I have seen such markings as the result of light reflections off wings or from other causes.  I would think that if anyone held the butterfly by the middle of the outer part of the forewing, there would have been considerable wing damage.

An internet post last year theorized the odds of an observer coming across an individual butterfly that was released (even one of many from a mass-release).  The odds are apparently astronomical.  It would stand to reason that if an observer chanced upon a representative individual of a natural mass-movement, then there must be many thousands actually moving northward.

My vote?  Keep the record to see if a trend develops either this year or over time.

Which brings about the topic of deliberate releases: If people are going to release butterflies, I would like to suggest that suppliers ought to PLEASE tag or mark their butterflies (at least those being shipped out of their "normal" range) with an obvious mark so at least the first-generation releasees are identifiable as such.  

Harry Pavulaan

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 31 11:05:21 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:05:21 -0400
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
In-Reply-To: "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich@tmpeng.com>
        "RE: Queen in NJ: what should its status be" (Jul 31,  9:49am)
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378B0B@NTFS2>
Message-ID: <1010731110527.ZM15518@Gochfeld>

Alex wrote: 
Queens have been seen all up and down the Mississippi Valley, also in sw
Ohio and now in southern Michigan. To me, it is not at all a stretch to
suspect that they would stray into New Jersey.
==============================================

Is that an invasion this year or historic strays.  In evaluating the 
status of the recent NJ sighting, the added information from a pattern 
of northward invasion would be very valuable indeed. 

Mike Gochfeld

 
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From CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com  Tue Jul 31 11:49:57 2001
From: CTaylor at swarovskioptik.com (Clay Taylor)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:49:57 -0400
Subject: Red-spotted Admirals??
References: <012CDB766CF4D411A5FB00902773FBE5378AEB@NTFS2> <004101c118fa$4b0e3f00$10e3fea9@s0022921733> <004801c1194f$a034a500$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com>
Message-ID: <008801c119d8$73e4f660$10e3fea9@s0022921733>

All -

    Thinking back to a comment that Kenn Kaufman brought up in his message
on 7/28;

"birders coming into "butterflying" bring along a
prejudice against using English names for subspecies"

I think that we birders are not comfortable with that practice because we
were never "brought up" that way by Peterson, Robbins, et. al. in our bird
field guides.  Recent trends in birding are paying attention to subspecies
(see the Sibley field guide, for instance), if for no other selfish reason
than identified subspecies  may in the future become new species (in this
recent era of splitters) and thus add to the Life List ( for you
uninitiated, that's the driving force behind some birders).

I recently made a pilgrimage to Mt. Palomar, CA in search of the Hale
Telescope (the Holy Grail of optics) and butterflies with Mike Klein of San
Diego.  The telescope was serendipity, and the butterflies were almost as
good.  I saw about 15 lifers, most of which Mike referred to by subspecies,
often with an English name for that subspecies.  It was a novel experience
for me, a little weird but not particularly vexing.  Glassberg's Western
guide shows subspecies by photo and text, and what Mike was showing me was
easily referenced in the book.

Since birders are often into "games" (day lists, county lists, etc.,), the
trick will be to get "butterfly listing" down to the subspecies level.  How?
Current field guides, literature. etc., that feature subspecies (the older
publications that Ron refers to are often not easy to find), and guidance
from the "pros" while observing in the field.

We "birders" are a product of our environment, so don't dismiss us out of
hand - help us to correct our flaws.  I'm sure that there will be many who
are eager to learn.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Cc: "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Red-spotted Admirals??


>
> Clay Taylor wrote
>
>
> > Alex -
> >     It's the same old story - money.
> >     Think of all the money generated by the sales of "butterfly
> binoculars",
> > field guides, accessories, etc., and travel dollars that they bring to
> the
> > table.  You don't think the Texas Butterfly Festival is put on by the
> > Mission, TX Chamber of Commerce only because it's a fun event, do you?
> > Heck, if someone wanted to give you money to show them to a new
butterfly
> > species for their life list, would you turn it down?  If yes, why?
> >
>
> Well, it took guts to say that. Money as a motive and then a corrupter is
> such a big topic with me because of all the greed in the church world - Do
> they still sell bibles in Christian bookstores?  (My wife works part time
> at one. I at times tell her to just quit.)
>
> I think Alex and I come from the same point of view. I don't think people
> like he and I are against any of the very _potentially_ positive things
the
> birders are bringing to the area of the broad multifaceted world of
> interest in Lepidoptera. It is what is being destroyed (in our view) of
the
> scientific aspect of it. And to me, the biggest part of what I mean by
> scientific is the preservation of them via biological and taxonomic
> information on them.  By lumping all the aphrodites into one Aphrodite
> destroys the existent knowledge - there are several Aphrodites - some much
> scarcer than others. This knowledge was once in every Field Guide and
> state/regional book published _ for new and average lepsters_  till the
> dumbed down could-be-written-by-anybody ones started coming out. There are
> as many subspecies found in my kid's Little Golden Book of butterflies -
> and it only cost $3.
>
> Many of today's Field Guides are raped versions of Klots, Dornfield,
> Grath/Tilden, Higgins/Riley and on and on. They are gooooood money makers
> though. There is a reason I do not own one single Glassberg book. I agree
> with Alex, and challenge those in the east who do not have the old Klots
> book to get one and use it for just one season. While some areas are
> definately out of date, one might be surprised how ofen it would become
> consulted along with Harris, Allen, Gochfeld, Brock, Klassen, Heitzman,
> Neilsen, Emmel, and then one would be led naturally to Jordan &
Rothschild,
> Scudder, Seitz, Blaint, deeper and deeper.
>
> Next, there is no comparison to be made between _birds and Lepidoptera_ in
> many many areas. For example, I can not say "between birds and
butterflies"
> as that would be inaccurate. The equivalent would be "between birds_ and
> _butterflies, moths and skippers."  It is dumbed down immediately when one
> says "birder - butterflyer".  Thus, when I say there is no comparison
> between birds and Lepidoptera - I am not trying to be smart, elitist,
> scientific, or any such thing in using the word Lepidoptera. It's just
> accurate.
>
> For one (be they professional or avocational) to say "I am a birder" is
> exactly the same as saying "I am an Ornithologist" as nothing is left out.
> Because Lepidoptera are butterflies, skippers and moths I can not say I am
> a butterflyer because most of my interest is in skippers. We have had no
> problem calling ourselves lepidopterists for a couple centuries. I don't
> mind the terms lepster or lepper as a slang, but butterflyer is way off
> base - unless that is all that one is. A moth-er, skipper-er, or
> butterfly-er. Requireing a birder to call himself such represents him
fine.
>
> Asking a moth-er to call theirself a butterflyer would be a big deal to
the
> moth-er. The very fact that many cross over birders probably don't see
> why - says it all.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
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>
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From monarch at saber.net  Tue Jul 31 13:07:53 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:07:53 -0700
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
References: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B66E5E9.19E1@saber.net>

Harry Pavulaan wrote:

>Which brings about the topic of deliberate releases: If people are going 
> to release butterflies, I would like to suggest that suppliers ought to PLEASE 
> tag or mark their butterflies (at least those being shipped out of their "normal" 
> range) with an obvious mark so at least the first-generation releasees are
> identifiable as such.

Harry, the USDA laws already forbid shipping butterflies out of their
natural range for release. Also, the Queen butterfly is not one of the nine
widespread migratory species the USDA allows to be shipped for release. 
Finally,  90+% of all the butterflies shipped for release are just Monarchs and
Painted Ladies. For all these reasons it is extremely unlikely that the Queens
and Gulf Fritillaries sighted in New England were shipped there from a 
southern State. 

With regard to the suggestion of tagging, breeders might be receptive to this
IF it could be demonstated with a mathematical model or cast history evidence that
there was a reasonable chance of an observer coming across an individual 
monarch or Painted Lady that had been deliberately released (even one of many from a 
mass-release).  But the odds appear to be near zero, or perhaps along the lines
of one sighting in a metropolitan area every several years or so.

A couple practical examples: Over the years, monarchs have rarely been seen in 
San Diego and Los Angeles in summer (with a few exceptions such as 
butterfly gardens planted with alot of milkweed and a few isolated wild areas
with alot of milkweed). Since about 1995,  thousands of 
monarchs have been shipped to these cities in summer for wedding and funeral 
releases. This influx of artificial migrants has not increased the frequency of summer 
monarch sightings by the many lep enthusiasts living in these urban areas.  

A bit of math: Say 100 monarchs are released in a residential area of Los Angeles for
someone's funeral. If these 100 butterflies disperse over a 20 square mile area after
two days this means there are 5 monarchs per square mile. That's 5 monarchs
per every 640 acres. Since the average home sits on very roughly 1/5 acre, that's
5 monarchs per every 3,200 homes in the area or one monarch per 640 homes.

Yes the odds of a butterfly observer spotting a deliberately released
monarch do seem astronomical - even in a metropolitan area. One last note:
The average wedding or funeral release involves just 1-3 dozen monarchs
or painted ladies, not hundreds. Few brides or widowers can afford the cost 
of hundreds of butterflies.

Paul Cherubini

 
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From MWalker at gensym.com  Tue Jul 31 14:39:40 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:39:40 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DE8@hqmail.gensym.com>

Rudy,

Is Brossard the crazy fellow that I've seen on films shown at the Montreal
Insectarium?  My family got a kick out of how much he reminded them of me...
Bugs crawling all over his face, talking to the camera when off he runs to
chase down some fly by, tripping over his feet and ending up face down in
the swamp...

My kind of guy...

Mark Walker.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rudy Benavides [mailto:rbenavid at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 12:36 PM
> To: Leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject: Re: Tasting butterflies
> 
> 
> Have you ever eaten larvae?  If you have watched the tv 
> program _Insectia_ 
> with Canadian entomologist Georges Brossard, you may recall 
> the episode he 
> did on the Aegiale hesperiaris skippers in Mexico.  The 
> larvae, found at the 
> base of yucca and agave plants, are added to the individual 
> bottles of 
> Mescal to provide its distinctive flavor.  But indigenous 
> people in Mexico 
> also gather the caterpillars, deep fry them, and then season 
> with their 
> flavorful spicy sauces.  In that particular television  
> episode, Georges was 
> seen helping his host dig out handfuls of the caterpillars at 
> the base of a 
> yucca plant (?), then  showing how they were cooked, and 
> finally helping 
> himself to a plateful....yumm.  I can still hear him in his 
> distinctive 
> French Candaian accent saying....."ah, there ees notheeng 
> more finer than a 
> plate of theese delicious gusanos de Maguey".....or 
> sometheeng like that.
> 
> Rudy/Maryland
> 
> p.s. Brossard is the founder of the Montreal Insectarium, and 
> the last i 
> heard was that he was also involved in creating one for 
> Audobon in New 
> Orleans.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 
>  
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 31 15:05:06 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:05:06 -0500
Subject: collections/records are in the act of ....
In-Reply-To: <1010731050442.ZM15486@Gochfeld>
References: <HpAzures@aol.com "Re: collections are in the act of ...." (Jul 28, 12:46pm)>
 <ae.184b63fb.28944672@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010731133953.00a41320@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Michael,
    I disagree. As biological curators we do not need additional 
obligations of equipment maintenance and conservation. Printed and written 
records have served us well for several thousand years. I see no reason to 
abandon that format now.
    Electronic methods of data storage and access have provided us with 
magnificent tools for data capture, manipulation, standardization, 
matching, recognition that is fast. They have not provided us with a 
century standard of international data preservation. I think it is 
wonderful to publish a data-filled report using current state-of-the-art 
technology, but, without a companion printed permanent record (illustrated 
book) this is ultimately a non-publication because stored copies that are 
decades old or centuries old will be unreadable with the state-of-the-art 
technology of that future time.
    I too have a Kallikac-style shed full of defunct equipment, but I have 
maintained an operating thread of data transcribability from CP/M and OS/9 
to WindowsME. I feel that I have squandered a lot of time that would have 
otherwise been devoted to descriptive science, just trying to use modern 
methods. I have also spent the equivalent of several specimen cabinets 
filled with Cornell drawers and unit trays while following the wild hare of 
computerization. Maybe I can recoup some of this on E-Bay when I sell my 
Osborne schematic chart that is signed by Adam Osborne.
.........Chris Durden

At 05:04 AM 7/31/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Harry,
>
>I agree that scanning and electronic documentation of specimens is a
>valuable undertaking; that is if we assume that the collection catalogue
>has already been data-based (a valuable neologism).
>
>But as you say the permanency of electronic data is in question for
>various reasons.
>
>I have large quantities of data on punch cards (but alas, no punch card
>reader). I have 8" floppies for my PDP-8 which languishes in my son's
>basement.
>
>I have 5 1/4 inch floppies filled with text and data generated on a
>CPM-based operating system which we were assured in 1980 would be the
>state of the art.
>
>If you bought beta-max you know what I mean.
>
>Yesterday I went to order a new laptop with a very fast CD-rom drive and
>was told that was on it's way to be obsolete.
>
>So electronic media really need to be curated as vigorously as the
>specimens themselves.
>
>Mike Gochfeld
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------



 
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From beebuzz at kiva.net  Tue Jul 31 16:57:35 2001
From: beebuzz at kiva.net (Liz Day)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:57:35 -0500
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
In-Reply-To: <3B66E5E9.19E1@saber.net>
References: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20010731155512.00a992b0@b.pop.kiva.net>

 >Say 100 monarchs are released in a residential area. If these 100 
butterflies disperse over a 20 square mile area after two days this means 
there are 5 monarchs per square mile. That's 5 monarchs per every 640 
acres. Since the average home sits on very roughly 1/5 acre, that's 5 
monarchs per every 3,200 homes in the area or one monarch per 640 homes.

That's assuming they don't move.  There may be only one per 640 homes at 
any one time, but if each one flies over 100 homes, that potentially means 
a lot more people might see it.

Just feeling picky,
Liz


 
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From fnjjk1 at uaf.edu  Tue Jul 31 18:02:10 2001
From: fnjjk1 at uaf.edu (James Kruse)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:02:10 -0800
Subject: Allergic and irritant reactions to plants and insects
In-Reply-To: <004301c119cd$88a21c00$4963a58e@allez123>
Message-ID: <B78C6AE2.862%fnjjk1@uaf.edu>

In the midwestern U.S. (Wisconsin at least) I've eaten the flower buds and
flowers of common agriculturally associated milkweed, including the flower
stalks. They are quite good right off the plant and serve as a handy travel
snack (chase off the bees, etc), or fry them up as fritters. Yum! and I'm
still alive. Blooming flowers are a little tastier than the buds, and frying
in fritter batter kills the bitter taste of the milkweed sap. Maybe my blood
would be distasteful to mosquitoes, parasites, bears or vultures?

I will have to try the pods, thanks!

James J. Kruse, Ph.D.
Curator of Entomology
University of Alaska Museum
907 Yukon Drive
Fairbanks, AK, USA 99775-6960
tel 907.474.5579
fax 907.474.1987
http://www.uaf.edu/museum/ento


on 7/31/01 6:20 AM, cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca at cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca wrote:

> I friend of mine was "in to" gathering and eating wild plants.  Milkweed
> pods-  he claimed was high in protein.  For human consumption boil pods in
> water clearing away the white froth that gathered on the water's surface.
> When water was clear, cut up pods and cook in butter.
> 
> There is a reason why we stay away from cultivating so many plants.  they
> taste awful.
> 
> Martin Bailey,
> 
> cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca
> phone/fax   306 842-8936
> 
> 102   1833 Coteau Avenue,
> Weyburn, SK., Canada.
> S4H 2X3
> 
> 


 
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From rbenavid at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 31 19:36:06 2001
From: rbenavid at hotmail.com (Rudy Benavides)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:36:06 -0400
Subject: Tasting butterflies
Message-ID: <F143Faatao8KK8ZtP0k00000a03@hotmail.com>




>Rudy,
>
>Is Brossard the crazy fellow that I've seen on films shown at the Montreal
>Insectarium?  My family got a kick out of how much he reminded them of 
>me...
>Bugs crawling all over his face, talking to the camera when off he runs to
>chase down some fly by, tripping over his feet and ending up face down in
>the swamp...
>
>My kind of guy...
>
>Mark Walker.
>
Mark,

That sure sounds like him.  What did you think of the Montreal Insectarium?  
He designed it and donated his collection to it, and he's now designing one 
for New Orleans.  Check out his website at http:www.insectia.com

Rudy/Md

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From monarch at saber.net  Tue Jul 31 19:31:29 2001
From: monarch at saber.net (Paul Cherubini)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:31:29 -0700
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
References: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com> <4.3.2.7.1.20010731155512.00a992b0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <3B673FD1.383A@saber.net>

Liz Day wrote:

> That's assuming they don't move.  There may be only one per 640 homes at
> any one time, but if each one flies over 100 homes, that potentially means
> a lot more people might see it.

Great point Liz.  So maybe the next step is to look
at the probability that one of those 640 homes would be occupied
by a butterfly watcher and the probability that the watcher would
be out watching when the deliberately released butterfly flew over.

But I am no math or modeling wizard so welcome ideas and input
from the experts in this area. It seems we should eventually be
able to arrive at a model that could predict the probability of
sighting a deliberately released monarch or painted lady based
on different sets of assumptions and circumstances.

Paul Cherubini

 
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From gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu  Tue Jul 31 20:44:43 2001
From: gochfeld at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:44:43 -0400
Subject: chance of encounters
In-Reply-To: Liz Day <beebuzz@kiva.net>
        "Re: Queen in NJ: what should its status be" (Jul 31,  3:57pm)
References: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com> 
	<4.3.2.7.1.20010731155512.00a992b0@b.pop.kiva.net>
Message-ID: <1010731204446.ZM18718@Gochfeld>

Picky Liz wrote: 
 >Say 100 monarchs are released in a residential area. If these 100 
butterflies disperse over a 20 square mile area after two days this 
means 
there are 5 monarchs per square mile. That's 5 monarchs per every 640 
acres. Since the average home sits on very roughly 1/5 acre, that's 5 
monarchs per every 3,200 homes in the area or one monarch per 640 homes.

That's assuming they don't move.  There may be only one per 640 homes at 
any one time, but if each one flies over 100 homes, that potentially 
means 
a lot more people might see it.

Just feeling picky,
Liz
-------------------------------------------------------
In our community, the number of houses with butterfly gardens or even 
with butterfly flowers is less than 10%. So the butterflies aren't 
randomly distributed.  Moreover, they do move.  On a day when we thought 
we had about 3 Monarchs in our yard more or less all day, tagging 
of 12 individuals showed that they were moving around. 

Mike Gochfeld 


 
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From cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca  Tue Jul 31 20:54:04 2001
From: cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca (cmbb at sk.sympatico.ca)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:54:04 -0600
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
References: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com>
 <4.3.2.7.1.20010731155512.00a992b0@b.pop.kiva.net> <3B673FD1.383A@saber.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c11a24$9489fae0$4f62a58e@allez123>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cherubini" <monarch at saber.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Queen in NJ: what should its status be


> Liz Day wrote:
>
> > That's assuming they don't move.  There may be only one per 640 homes at
> > any one time, but if each one flies over 100 homes, that potentially
means
> > a lot more people might see it.
>
> Great point Liz.  So maybe the next step is to look
> at the probability that one of those 640 homes would be occupied
> by a butterfly watcher and the probability that the watcher would
> be out watching when the deliberately released butterfly flew over.
>
> But I am no math or modeling wizard so welcome ideas and input
> from the experts in this area. It seems we should eventually be
> able to arrive at a model that could predict the probability of
> sighting a deliberately released monarch or painted lady based
> on different sets of assumptions and circumstances.
>
> Paul Cherubini
>
>  That was what I was trying to get at when I asked the question, "how many
butterflies crossed the road?"   On the morning in question I travelled west
through cropland.  In one twenty mile stretch 75 + Painted Lady kept
crossing my path.  Later in the day I travelled first back east and then
south.  In one twenty-five mile stretch 100+  Painted Lady were once again
in evidence.  The habitat was the same as in the morning - prairie cropland.

So the question is, what are the parameters that you have to take into
account?  It has been suggested that speed of vehicle does not affect your
count.  What about field of view? That is, I suspect that I only saw
laterally twenty-five - the width of two highway lanes.  Then distance
travelled.  Is that the starting point of any estimation?  If it is in this
case, and combined with potential habitat that can be occupied at any one
time by Vanessa cardui, their numbers this year have to be in the millions.

Martin Bailey








 
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From drdn at mail.utexas.edu  Tue Jul 31 21:23:19 2001
From: drdn at mail.utexas.edu (Chris J. Durden)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:23:19 -0500
Subject: (Fwd) Re: collections/records are in the act of ....
In-Reply-To: <1010731203910.ZM18718@Gochfeld>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010731200631.028b2420@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Michael,
    My beef is with the attenuation of meager curatorial funds by new 
obligations of technological fixes for newly obsolete methods of data storage.
    Technology should be used to create permanent records that do not need 
to be updated! Printed records fill this need perfectly. Records that 
should be permanent must never be stored on transient media alone.
    The first rule is - make a printed label for the specimen.
A bar-code may be added for convenience, but may not always be readable.
    The second rule is - make a printout of the catalog for the archive!
The electronic database or the media on which it is recorded may not be 
always readable.
    The third rule is - publish your catalog.
Several libraries will save your published catalog. Your own institution 
may lose it.
    The fourth rule is - don't let the salesman sell you the Emperor's New 
Clothes.
Expensive vapor-ware and the equipment to run it on may bankrupt the 
institution and create another orphan collection!
............Chris Durden

At 08:39 PM 7/31/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Chris,
>
>In reading your message below, I think the only thing you disagree with
>is my initial statement which was "I agree that scanning and electronic
>documentation of specimens is a >valuable undertaking; that is if we
>assume that the collection catalogue >has already been data-based (a
>valuable neologism)."
> >
>But my next sentence was:
> >But as you say the permanency of electronic data is in question for
> >various reasons.
> >
>With which I think you agree.
>
>We are seeing more and more papers that reference web sites as the
>authority for some statement, with little assurance that the web site
>has valid information (although that probably goes for many books as
>well) or with no guaruntee of permanency (although library permanency
>may be an illusion as well).
>
>I'm sure it's as true for insects as it was for birds, but European
>museum collections didn't escape WW-II unscathed.
>
>Mike Gochfeld
>
>
>
>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:05:06 -0500
>To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
>From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at mail.utexas.edu>
>Subject: Re: collections/records are in the act of ....
>Reply-To: drdn at mail.utexas.edu
>
>Michael,
>     I disagree. As biological curators we do not need additional
>obligations of equipment maintenance and conservation. Printed and
>written
>records have served us well for several thousand years. I see no reason
>to
>abandon that format now.
>     Electronic methods of data storage and access have provided us with
>magnificent tools for data capture, manipulation, standardization,
>matching, recognition that is fast. They have not provided us with a
>century standard of international data preservation. I think it is
>wonderful to publish a data-filled report using current state-of-the-art
>technology, but, without a companion printed permanent record
>(illustrated
>book) this is ultimately a non-publication because stored copies that
>are
>decades old or centuries old will be unreadable with the
>state-of-the-art
>technology of that future time.
>     I too have a Kallikac-style shed full of defunct equipment, but I
>have
>maintained an operating thread of data transcribability from CP/M and
>OS/9
>to WindowsME. I feel that I have squandered a lot of time that would
>have
>otherwise been devoted to descriptive science, just trying to use modern
>methods. I have also spent the equivalent of several specimen cabinets
>filled with Cornell drawers and unit trays while following the wild hare
>of
>computerization. Maybe I can recoup some of this on E-Bay when I sell my
>Osborne schematic chart that is signed by Adam Osborne.
>.........Chris Durden
>
>At 05:04 AM 7/31/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >Harry,
> >
> >I agree that scanning and electronic documentation of specimens is a
> >valuable undertaking; that is if we assume that the collection
>catalogue
> >has already been data-based (a valuable neologism).
> >
> >But as you say the permanency of electronic data is in question for
> >various reasons.
> >
> >I have large quantities of data on punch cards (but alas, no punch card
> >reader). I have 8" floppies for my PDP-8 which languishes in my son's
> >basement.
> >
> >I have 5 1/4 inch floppies filled with text and data generated on a
> >CPM-based operating system which we were assured in 1980 would be the
> >state of the art.
> >
> >If you bought beta-max you know what I mean.
> >
> >Yesterday I went to order a new laptop with a very fast CD-rom drive
>and
> >was told that was on it's way to be obsolete.
> >
> >So electronic media really need to be curated as vigorously as the
> >specimens themselves.
> >
> >Mike Gochfeld
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>
>
>
>
>---End of forwarded mail from drdn at mail.utexas.edu



 
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From mbpi at juno.com  Tue Jul 31 21:10:52 2001
From: mbpi at juno.com (mbpi at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:10:52 -0500
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
Message-ID: <20010731.201054.-211449.1.mbpi@juno.com>

Mike:

I noticed a Queen chrsalis "missing" from one of the emergence chambers
at the Field Museum...which had fallen off the rod it was hanging from. 
I suspected a visitor might have "pilfered" it (!)

Could it be MY missing Queen?!

Seriously, though, sightings of unusual species could also be the result
of a proliferation of "butterfly houses, exhibits, conservatories," etc.,
etc.  All the vigilent monitoring can't possibly stop the determined
renegades from escaping their consigned confinements.  I've chased down
three White Peacocks and one Great Southern White that managed to "slip
out" undetected, and was only successful in retrieving two of the four. 
And those are the only individuals "to my knowledge" (!)

On my days off, all sorts of mayhem breaks loose:  An escaped Julia was
observed "mating" with an incarcerated Julia through the mesh of the
tent's roof (!)  And a Zebra Longwing was observed having "a Field day,"
in the main hall of the museum....

As a side note:  Queens are one of the easiest butterflies to farm for
distribution and pretty slippery in their tactics of escape.  All of the
Queens that I receive are sent as chrysalides.

And to add my commentary on allergic reactions to milkweed:  after
handling hundreds of Queen and Monarch chrysalides over the course of the
summer, I have not experienced any adverse reactions, nor has anyone else
that has helped me handle them.  I've also collected green milkweed pods
in Wisconsin for my sister, who uses them to make "birds" with her second
grade class.  There is plenty of oozing "sap," and I've yet to hear of
any of her children suffering allergic reactions to their crafting with
milkweed pods.  (But then, asbestos was used as an ingredient for a 
"paper mache" recipe in a Teacher's magazine from the early 60's...which
I discovered in the archives of an architectural firm where I worked.)

Mary Beth Prondzinski


Mary Beth

On Tue, 31 Jul 2001 06:13:17 -0400 Michael Gochfeld
<gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU> writes:
> With regard to David Moskowitz' recent photographing of a Queen 
> (Danaus 
> gilippus) in central New Jersey,  Jim Springer wrote: 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Mike,
> 
> I imagine that this Queen has been human assisted.  Do you know of 
> any 
> other reports from NJ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jim
> =====================================================
> GOCHFELD'S RESPONSE
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I know of no other records from NJ. It sounds like a reasonable 
> thing to 
>  "imagine" that it was human assisted, but there's no reason why 
> strong 
>  flying Danaus butterflies couldn't show up out of range. 
> 
> One kind of assist might be school releases, but I don't know 
> whether 
> Queens are widely used for such purposes. 
> 
> David looked closely to see what might be a "fingerprint", but 
> apparently concluded it probably wasn't.  Also the photographs show 
> an 
> extremely fresh individual, suggesting a local emergence rather than 
> a 
> long-distance flight. 
> 
> Therefore another more likely kind might be horticultural trade in 
> Milkweeds.  We  are beginning to see Scarlet Milkweed (Asclepias 
> curassavica) in nurseries. If plants are brought up from a more 
> tropical region for sale here, they could easily transport a 
> caterpillar unharms.  I bought a Pipevine at a Florida nursery and 
> when 
> I got it home (NJ) it had six Polydamas larvae on it. They devoured 
> the 
> plant thereby committing suicide---so no inadvertent introduction 
> there. 
> 
> There have been other southern vagrants in NJ and neighboring 
> states, 
> going back a century or more, when presumably human assists would 
> have 
> been less frequent.   
> 
> The term "vagrant" implies that the creature got to an unusual 
> location 
> on its own, so perhaps the term "accidental" is less value laden, 
> since 
>  it makes no judgement as to how the occurrence occurred. 
> 
> Anyway it's a fascinating record and the suggestion that it might be 
> a 
> "western" source will prompt closer scrutiny of David's photos. 
> Perhaps 
> those on the leps-list will email David and invite him to email the 
> photos to them for examination. 
> 
> Mike Gochfeld
> 
> 
> 
> =====================================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Moskowitz [mailto:Dmoskowi at ecolsciences.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 9:14 AM
> To: springer at naba.org
> Cc: sightings at naba.org
> Subject: Queen in central NJ!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Dear Jim: I found and photographed a male Queen (yes a Queen) in 
> East
> Windsor, NJ yesterday. The butterfly was nectaring on swamp 
> milkweed,
> canada thistle, and dogbane in a wet meadow/old field. I have great
> photos of the upper and lower surfaces. I can't find any records for
> this species in NJ. Burger and Gochfield don't list it, even as
> accidental, the USGS web page doesn't show NJ records or even 
> anything 
> closer than NC, the Mulberry Wing NY sightings don't include it, and 
> 
> it's don't listed as a rare stray in the Butterflies of Delmarva. 
> 
> I assume, it is either a release, an escape, or possibly a stray. 
> The 
> wher I found it, is only about 1/4 mile from exit 8 on the turnpike 
> and 
> there are really only farm fields and a little development in 
> between. 
> Maybe it was carried along by a truck or other vehicle?
> 
> Now for some details on the butterfly. It was nectaring and 
> patrolling. 
> I watched it and photographed it for about 10 minutes before I lost 
> it 
> flew through some very dense rose and I lost it. I could not 
> relocate 
> it. Unfortunately I did not realize how unusual the sighting was 
> until I 
> got home last night and started checking its distribution out. 
> Otherwise, I probably would have collected it. But, I did take 
> detailed 
> field notes and nice close up photos.
> 
> The butterfly is in very good condition. It has a very slight tear 
> (beak 
> mark?) on the hind wing margin. There is some loss of scales on the
> upper surface of one forewing and a series of lines on the other 
> that 
> could suggest the lines of a fingerprint. However, there is no 
> evidence 
> on the photos of scale loss on the underside of the wing opposite 
> these 
> areas of scale loss on the upper side that would suggest that 
> someone 
> had held the wings. I would think that holding the wings in such a 
> way 
> that would create an impression of the lines of a fingerprint on one 
> 
> surface would certainly remove scales on the other surface. I think 
> I'm 
> going to try it with a monarch and see what happens.  The butterfly 
> also
> has pretty distinct white scaling along the black veins of the
> undersurface of the hindwing.  My books seem to suggest that this is 
> 
> related to the western populations of the species.
> 
> .
> 
> Dave Moskowitz       
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
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From jrlyons at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 31 22:03:41 2001
From: jrlyons at bellsouth.net (Joel Lyons)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:03:41 -0500
Subject: Queen in NJ: what should its status be
References: <22.19888ed2.28981e55@aol.com> <4.3.2.7.1.20010731155512.00a992b0@b.pop.kiva.net> <3B673FD1.383A@saber.net>
Message-ID: <3B67637D.BE33C8A1@bellsouth.net>

Hopefully this is some kind of wry satire, eh?

Paul Cherubini wrote:

> Liz Day wrote:
>
> > That's assuming they don't move.  There may be only one per 640 homes at
> > any one time, but if each one flies over 100 homes, that potentially means
> > a lot more people might see it.
>
> Great point Liz.  So maybe the next step is to look
> at the probability that one of those 640 homes would be occupied
> by a butterfly watcher and the probability that the watcher would
> be out watching when the deliberately released butterfly flew over.
>
> But I am no math or modeling wizard so welcome ideas and input
> from the experts in this area. It seems we should eventually be
> able to arrive at a model that could predict the probability of
> sighting a deliberately released monarch or painted lady based
> on different sets of assumptions and circumstances.
>
> Paul Cherubini
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl





 
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From MWalker at gensym.com  Tue Jul 31 22:40:56 2001
From: MWalker at gensym.com (Mark Walker)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:40:56 -0400
Subject: pronunciations
Message-ID: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D279DEE@hqmail.gensym.com>

Like many of the themes discussed on this list, the questioning of proper
pronunciation of _latinized_ names has been a reoccurring one over the
years.  My only contribution to the thread on this go around is thus:

Over the course of what has been many years now, I have gone from a shy,
whispering user of scientific names to a bold, in-spite-of-stumbling
pronouncer of Walkerized names.  I know - this goes against the very concept
of universality, but I have been guided by the shared wisdom on LEPS-L and
have concluded that my pronunciations are just as valid as the next persons.

When you actually find yourself discussing things in public, it's amazing
how different the pronunciations can be.  Sometimes they can be particularly
disparate (bordering on humorous) - usually resulting in bit of a
communications lag not unlike the ones that occurs in transcontinental
analog voice conversations.  This can be quite fun, and happens even to
those who are highly respected in the field.  After a time you figure it
out, mumbling the translation quietly to yourself, and attempt to catch up
on the discussion without missing more than a beat.  I've found this
protocol to be quite universal, and rarely have been met with stern
correction.

I find this a fascinating and wonderful aspect of the naming phenomenon.
Once you figure this out, the use of scientific names can really be fun,
after all.

Mark Walker
Oceanside, CA

> 

 
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From patfoley at csus.edu  Tue Jul 31 23:06:35 2001
From: patfoley at csus.edu (Patrick Foley)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:06:35 -0700
Subject: EPA-GMO corn little or no impact on Monarch Butterflies
References: <v04220800b78b4c742d70@[192.152.7.83]>
 <005701c11951$b3c593c0$9b0f1218@gscrk1.sc.home.com> <3B6605AC.5ADC@saber.net>
Message-ID: <3B67723B.C824F4F1@csus.edu>

Paul and other lepsters,

I think that genetic engineering of crops is an ancient and honorable human
undertaking. It contributes greatly to human welfare, and it is fun. I am speaking of
course, of the genetic engineering in the broad sense, including plant breeding and
the artificial selection of "sports" and also of target gene insertions.

As with everything that gets done in this universe, there are forseen and unforseen
consequences. Plant breeding and culture encouraged a big population buildup in the
early Holocene (I don't want to insult and inflame geologists by mentioning the
common names here). This led to the Parthenon and Virgil, but also to various
plagues, wars and famines, not to mention the Byzantine empire and other
dictatorships.

Contemporary genetic engineering has lots of problems. We know enough of pest control
to suspect that putting out a constant selective force (rather than targeted brutal
repressions) leads to pesticide resistance in most pests. We should have enough
foresight to recognize that taking the seeds out of the hands of farmers (as licenses
effectively do) is socially pernicious (where are the usual pro-militia voices on
this list about this loss of freedom? How would Thomas Jefferson have reacted to
Dupont or Monsanto controlling the genetic future of Monticello? We know -- he helped
found the University of Virginia). And when the next social calamity comes (war,
conquest, natural disasters on a global scale) who will supply the fragments of the
farmers their seeds? This is not an idle whimsy -- disasters always come.

I am in favor of genetic engineering, but I am not in favor of stupid avarice -- and
that is what I see in much of the field today.

Patrick Foley

Paul Cherubini wrote:

> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
>
> > Personally, I don't like genetically engineered anything.
> > Ron
>
> Hello Ron,
>
> I was wondering what your opinion is of the Biotech Industry
> argument that the increased yields made possible by GMO crops
> reduces the need to chop down wilderness in order to make room for
> crops?  Do you think this is a valid argument and desirable trade-off?
>
> Also, if geneticist Pat Foley is listening, I would be interested in his opinion.
> If I am not mistaken, I seem to remember Pat saying that yield improvements
> via GMO crops could even make it possible (theoretically) to take some
> existing Ag land out of production and restore it to wilderness.
>
> Paul Cherubini
>
>
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>
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From hankb at theriver.com  Tue Jul 31 21:40:12 2001
From: hankb at theriver.com (Hank & Priscilla Brodkin)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:40:12 -0700
Subject: Third Portal, AZ, Butterfly Count
Message-ID: <3B675DFC.FD9298DA@theriver.com>

On Saturday, July 28, we had the third Portal Fourth of July Butterfly
Count sponsored by The SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association.  The
weather was mostly clear and the area was on the main lacking in many
nectar sources. 85 species were counted. Here is the list:


Pipevine Swallowtail            B. philenor		97
Black Swallowtail 		P. polyxenes		5
Two-tailed Swallowtail		P. multicaudatus	18
Chiricahua White		N. terlootii		1
Checkered White		P. protodice		59
Orange Sulphur		C. eurytheme		31
Southern Dogface	C. cesonia		4
Cloudless Sulphur	P. sennae		216
Lyside Sulphur		K. lyside		16
Mexican Yellow		E. mexicanum		23
Tailed Orange		E. proterpia		1
Sleepy Orange		E. nicippe		15
Dainty Sulphur		N. iole		45
Juniper Hairstreak	C. gryneus		8
Gray Hairstreak		S. melinus		9
Leda Ministreak		M. leda		4
Western Pygmy-Blue	B. exile		3
Marine Blue		L. marina		14
Ceraunus Blue		H. ceraunus		16
Reakirt's Blue		H. isola		150
Eastern Tailed-Blue	E. comyntas		1
Spring Azure		C. argiolus		40
Acmon Blue		P. acmon		7
Arizona Metalmark	C. arizonensis		2
Ares Metalmark		E. ares		1
Palmer's Metalmark	A. palmerii		1
American Snout		L. carinenta		6
Variagated Fritillary	E. claudia		23
Theona Checkerspot	T. theona		3
Fulvia Checkerspot	T. fulvia		3
Bordered Patch		C. lacinia		37
Tiny Checkerspot	D. dymas		2
Elada Checkerspot	T. elada		74
Texan Crescent		P. texana		34
Pearl Crescent		P. tharos		1
Painted Crescent	P. pictus		3
Satyr Comma 		P. satyrus		2
Mourning Cloak		N. antiopa		8
American Lady		V. virginiensis		85
Painted Lady		V. cardui		182
West Coast Lady		V. annabella		3
Red Admiral		V. atalanta		10
Common Buckeye		J. coenia		40
Tropical Buckeye	J. genoveva		9
Red-spotted Purple	L. arthemis		7
Weidemeyer's Admiral	L. weidemeyerii		3
California Sister	A. bredowii		23
Hackberry Emperor	A. celtis		5
Nabakov's Satyr		C. pyracmon		10
Canyonland Satyr	C. pertepida		1
Red Satyr		M. rubricata		15
Pine Satyr		P. allyni		4
Monarch		D. plexipus		3
Queen		D. gilippus		41
Dull Firetip		P. araxes		4
Silver-spotted Skipper		E. clarus		4
Arizona Skipper		C. arizonensis		8
Golden Banded-Skipper		A. cellus		46
Desert Cloudywing		A. cassica		5
Northern Cloudywing		T. pylades		166
Acacia Skipper		C. hippalus		51
Gold-costa Skipper		C. caicus		8
Golden-headed Scallopwing		S. ceos		32
Arizona Powdered-Skipper		S. zampa		7
Juvenal's Duskywing		E. juvenalis		1 (genitalia examined)
Mournful Duskywing		E. tristis		31
Funereal Duskywing		E. funeralis		11
Common/White Checkered-Skipper		P. communis/albescens		5
White Checkered-Skipper		P. albescens		1 (genitalia examined)
Desert Checkered-Skipper		P. philetas		5
Common Streaky-Skipper		C. nessus		50
Common Sootywing		P. catullus		61
Four-spotted Skipperling		P. polingi		11
Orange Skipperling		C. aurantiacus		36
Pahaska Skipper		H. pahaska		2
Snow's Skipper		P. snowi		2
Taxiles skipper		P. taxiles		7
Moon-marked Skipper		A. lunus		2
Sheep Skipper		A. edwardsi		3
Large Roadside-Skipper		A. exoteria		4
Bronze Roadside-Skipper		A. aenus		22
Cassus Roadside-Skipper		A. cassus		2
Nysa Roadside-Skipper		A. nysa		3
Dotted Roadside-Skipper		A. eos		3
Orange-edged Roadside-Skipper		A. fimbriata		4
Orange-headed Roadside-Skipper		A. phylace		3

-- 
	             Hank & Priscilla Brodkin
	          Carr Canyon, Cochise County, AZ
                   Send Mailto:hankb at theriver.com
             SouthEast Arizona Butterfly Association
          http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/home.html
         "Butterflies of Arizona - a Photographic Guide" 
    by Bob Stewart, Priscilla and Hank Brodkin - due September 2001
         http://www.naba.org/chapters/nabasa/book.html

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk  Tue Jul  3 18:05:22 2001
From: neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk (Neil Jones)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:05:22 +0100
Subject: killing butterflies for fun???
In-Reply-To: <JFELJJILCLMFAAPONDOKCEJICCAA.jhimmel@mindspring.com>
References: <JFELJJILCLMFAAPONDOKCEJICCAA.jhimmel@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <01070323052201.11337@nwjones.demon.co.uk>

On Wednesday 03 July 2002 09:51 pm, jh wrote:
> Not to get into this wasteful argument, nor do I mean to defend what seems
> to be the resurrected Joseph Sugar, but is it really necessary to point out
> that there is a difference in most people's minds between unavoidable
> collisions with insects whilst driving and actively collecting?  While I
> have no beef with insect collectors or collecting (when done responsibly),
> it does no one any good to use absurd arguments when defending a position.

Absolutely right. I have made this point myself on numerous occasions.
The car casualty argument is actually a very very poor point. It _obviously_ 
doesn't address the issue. When you use an invalid argument it tends to 
discredit your case.

<snip>

>
> While I am not a collector, many of the people I respect most in this field
> do kill bugs - for hobby as well as science - and I enjoy seeing their
> collections - and am grateful they exist!  But I would expect that none of
> them would argue in support of their pastime or vocation with that
> over-used car casualty scenario.
>
> Stan - I don't mean to come down on you - this might seem like a rant over
> a picayune point - but I guess I read this driving thing just one too many
> times.

You are right. It is a bad argument to advance. The real issue is that some 
people, misguidedly in my opinion, think it is always wrong to _deliberately_ 
set out to kill insects. This is not what you do when you are driving. 
Insect deaths then are incidental and accidental.


--
Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul  5 09:02:28 2001
From: neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk (Neil Jones)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:02:28 +0100
Subject: killing butterflies for fun???
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0207031516230.22299-100000@aurora.uaf.edu>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.33.0207031516230.22299-100000@aurora.uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <01070514022802.14878@nwjones.demon.co.uk>

On Thursday 04 July 
2002 12:16 am, Kenelm Philip wrote:
> Two people have posted to the effect that killing butterflies while driving
>
> is irrelevant to arguments over collecting:
> > But I would expect that none of them would argue in support of their
> > pastime or vocation with that over-used car casualty scenario.
> >
> > The car casualty argument is actually a very very poor point.
>
> So _why_ is the car casualty argument so poor? In the state of Illinois,
> an estimated 20 million butterflies are killed per _week_ along the road
> system. Compared to that, the depredations of collectors are pretty minor
> (provided they are not affecting endangered species).
>
> Note that in law, if you drive your car carelessly through a crowd and kill
> 100 people, I think you will draw a longer prison term than if you deliber-
> ately murder a single person. 100 shorter sentences add up fast...
>

It really is quite simple. I don't agree with the argument but I understand 
why it is put forward. It is a question of _volition_.  To extend your 
analogy further a driver is driving a roadworthy vehicle down a street quite 
slowly within the legal speed limit, suddenly a small child runs out from 
behind a parked car just feet in front of him and is killed. In this case the 
driver cannot be held to blame because he had no control over what happens.
However driving carelessly though a crowd is something you _have_ control 
over. The same is true for people who accidentally hit butterflies with the 
car it is _accidental_. The objection that these people have is to the 
_deliberate_ killing of butterflies.

When you use an argument what doesn't address the real issue it is seen as 
being evasive.


>
>         From the _butterflies'_ point of view, drivers are far more of a
> menace, and most of the people who object to collecting would probably
> like to think that they are 'speaking for the butterflies'.

> Why is it OK to kill myriads of insects as we go about our lives, but
> positively evil to pick out kill a single insect for one's curiosity
> about the natural world? Curiosity about the natural world is how I go
>about my life--so I fail to see the difference.
>
>                                                Ken Philip

Let me reiterate that I am not interested in banning colllecting. I do not 
believe that it is morally wrong to kill insects. However, some people do.
People do believe in odder things than that. There are people who believe 
that native americans are decended from the lost tribes of israel!

I quote Andrew Lees for two reasons.

1. He was an inspirational conservationist who helped conserve one of my 
favourite wildlife sites in the UK and he died in Madagascar fighting to save 
a tropical forest. Like me he worked to conserve _habitats_ and I like his 
quotation because it fits what I do. 
 
2. When I was asked for help in designing the memorial. I suggested using the 
quote used in his obituary by the organisation for whom he worked. Naturally 
being a butterfly conservationist I would wouldn't I. :-) Using the memorial 
quote myself has therefore an element of irony that appeals to me.

Next time I go to Crymlyn Bog I will have to take some pictures of the 
memorial and the bog itself to put on the web.

--
Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 

From neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul  5 15:42:57 2001
From: neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk (Neil Jones)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:42:57 +0100
Subject: killing butterflies for fun???
In-Reply-To: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D27A580@hqmail.gensym.com>
References: <6AA1CFDDE237D51190160000F805064D27A580@hqmail.gensym.com>
Message-ID: <01070520425702.16081@nwjones.demon.co.uk>

On Friday 05 July 2002 05:00 pm, Mark Walker wrote:
> Neil wrote:
> > When you use an argument what doesn't address the real issue it is seen
> > as being evasive.
>
> I don't understand comments like this.  Those who've used the windshield
> argument (like myself, on occasion), are making their own point which is
> defined by its own issues.  Rejecting an argument based on its not
> addressing YOUR real issue is essentially the same as ignoring the argument
> - which I find far more evasive.
>
> The question is NOT one of volition, it is one of hypocrisy.  The argument
> insists that those who like to throw stones should put them down long
> enough to do some self-examination.
>
> Suppose there was this homosexual whom I constantly berated and hounded and
> publicly condemned because of immoral lifestyle.  

Oh dear, Oh dear,Oh dear. Those Mullahs have really got to you.
Let's get one thing straight, homosexuality is not immoral never mind what 
any interpretation of any ancient holy book says!  No doubt among all the 
hundreds of forms of religion that man has invented for himself there must be 
one, with adherents just in strong as faith as you, that espouses the 
opposite. :-)

People fall in love. They are made that way. Most with the opposite sex but 
some not. They_are_made_that_way. It has _always_ been so.

Myself I have always been exclusively attracted to women, I cannot help it. I 
am made that way.

And then suppose that you
> found out that I was prone to spending hours surfing porn or visiting strip
> joints.  You would accuse me of hypocrisy, and would get irate if I ever
> dared label another as immoral.

Actually Mark. If you want to visit strip joints or surf for porn that is 
entirely your choice. You are actually being just as moralistic as those
who condemn you for collecting butterflies, which is your choice.



> The point is that we are ALL guilty of both intentionally killing insects
> and destroying their habitat.  We KNOW that driving kills bugs, and yet we
> CHOOSE to continue driving out of convenience.  We KNOW that developing
> shopping malls destroys habitat, but yet we CHOOSE to continue to shop at
> them out of convenience.  We KNOW that cultivating acres of produce results
> in spraying and other detrimental effects to the environment, and yet we
> CHOOSE to continue to eat.  We KNOW that buying virtually any product
> contributes to the demise of a species, and yet we CHOOSE to buy and sell.
> We KNOW that intentionally killing life is somehow worse than letting it
> live, and yet we CHOOSE to go to all costs towards eliminating unwanted
> creatures and plants from our immediate surroundings (ants, weeds,
> cockroaches, spiders, mosquitoes, wasps, flies, etc.).


Look Mark. There is a concept in _law_ called Mens Rea. "Guilty Mind".
In order to commit a crime you must have had an attitude of mind that 
directly _intended_ to do so.




> We're all guilty - some of us worse than others.  Those of use that take
> occasional specimens but otherwise are MORE sensitive to the impacts
> described above, do NOT appreciate being berated, hounded, or publicly
> condemned by those out there who are too ignorant to recognize their own
> hypocrisy.

Mark, you are tilting at windmills again!

No one here seriously says that you are wrongabout collecting. Paul Cherubini 
has dug out a weeks old posting just to stir things up again. I wouldn't be 
suprised if Sugar was another of his false identities.

I would have thought since you work with computers you would understand the 
logic. Before you can fix any system you have to understand how it works.

You method for fixing the bad idea doesn't work because it doesn't address 
the argument.

These people, AND_FOR_GOODNESS_SAKE GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD _I AM_NOT_ONE,
are against _deliberately_ going out and killing butterflies. They don't care 
about accidentally killing them. Hypocritical it may be to your highly 
moralistic views but in their equally highly moralistic system that is how it 
is.

If you don't address this point by pointing out the proper need to  collect 
in a _rational_ manner. You are going to loose the argument. PERIOD.


--
Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl