P. glaucus and P. canadensis

Ron Gatrelle gatrelle at tils-ttr.org
Fri Jun 8 00:45:37 EDT 2001

Daniel - I am not a Swallowtail specialists and don't even own a copy of
Tyler et al.  However, my limited contact with this book has shown it to be
(at least in one place) pretty sloppy and in gross taxonomic error. When I
researched Pterourus troilus I needed to consult this so looked it over on
a research trip to the FSCA library Gainesville, Fl. The problems with
their treatment of troilus are detailed in my paper. I will be happy to
send you a copy if you will just email me your address.

For those who remember the discussion I started about P. joanae being a
buried or forgotten species, - (Originally described as a species and to
date never proven to be otherwise) - in Daniel's posted view of this we see
the point of my posts back then (as agreed to by several others including
John Shuey of TNC). Tyler et al is all wet on this one too. As was James
Scott and others. The books and places that retain joannae seem to not be

We even hear now that machaon is not even what we have in NA based on egg
morphology etc.  DNA will prove to have as many flaws as genitalia. We
learned in Mitoura that not only do the facies change from subspecies to
subspecies so do the genitalia - and why not. (In other genera the
genitalia are all the same and worthless for species determination.) If
anybody would really think about it they would realize that the whole
organism is evolving - not just its visible outside" - and in many
directions at once. The only ones that really "know" what belongs with what
is the bugs who are having sex with their own kind.....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Glaeske, MD" <glaeske.md at sk.sympatico.ca>
To: <Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca>
Cc: <drdn at mail.utexas.edu>; <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: P. glaucus and P. canadensis

> I rather thought the solution is Tyler (1994?) was rather elegant -- two
> new world machaon group species, machaon and polyxenes.  Machaon being
> the more northerly species, while polyxenes is likely south american.
> These two species are both yellow winged except where sympatric with the
> distasteful Battus philenor.  Hence, the eastern north american P. p.
> asterius and some populations of coloro/rudkini are black, as are
> "southeastern" populations of machaon (bairdii, joanae, brevicauda)
> while northern and western populations (oregonius, dodi, pikei, brucei,
> hudsonianus, and aliaska for machaon) and southern (central and south
> american ssp. of polyxenes, and zelicaon) were yellow-winged.
> This of course is just a conceptual framework for understanding the
> biogeography of these populations, the question of whether they are
> separate species or not I leave to the experts.  But I still think of
> joanae and brevicauda certainly more closely related to our dodi than
> polyxenes asterias.
> I still wonder if there may have been (or perhaps may still be) isolated
> populations of joanae-like black swallowtails in the eastern US that
> have been extirpated, disrupted, or overlooked because of the massive
> habitat destruction ( and the fact that polyxenes asterias adapted very
> well to these disturbed and urban environments).
> Daniel Glaeske,
> St. Victor, SK


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