Fw: Re: Count Tradition???

[mbpi at juno.com]

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <mbpi at juno.com>
To: gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:21:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Count Tradition???
Message-ID: <20010626.212156.-249127.2.mbpi at juno.com>

I AGREE...  No, I'm not yelling, I'm just naturally LOUD, due to years of
training in theatrical projection...and being the middle child (!)

If scientific evaluation of data is limited to systematics, then we may
as well all give up on having an identity, much less anything else to
offer in the overall scheme of things...

I hardly think this is a case of "throwing out the baby with the bath
water."  There are too many "sensitive" individuals on this listserv who
lash out without the slightest provocation...unless it is "imagined."

M.B. Prondzinski

On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:02:44 -0400 Michael Gochfeld
<gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU> writes:
> Ron's remarks were too abstruse for me. My comments and questions are 
> in 
> CAPS (SOME READERS MAY INTERPRET THIS AS "YELLING" WHICH IS NOT 
> INTENDED). 
> 
> Ron wrote: 
> "Of course Alex's remarks were not "targeted" at the Brodkins. They 
> were
> targeted to an issue, a cultural practice, a tradition that often in 
> 
> many instances is very lean on scientific substance.  I think Alex, 
> like 
> myself, agrees with the rational approach and spirit of Hank and 
> Priscilla. I also think that Alex, like myself, sees Hank and 
> Priscilla 
> as the exception rather than the rule."
> 
> WHEN THE XERCES SOCIETY STARTED THE COUNTS, WERE THEY INTENDED TO BE 
> 
> "SCIENTIFIC"??  THAT DEPENDS ON HOW NARROWLY ONE DEFINES SCIENTIFIC. 
> IF 
> THEY ARE INTENDED TO  EXPERIMENTALLY MANIPULATE A PHENOMENON, THEN 
> NO. 
> BUT IN TERMS OF PROVIDING DATA IN A REASONABLY SYSTEMATIC WAY, THEN 
> THEY 
> SUCCEED, RECOGNIZING THAT ALL DATA----EVEN DATA OBTAINED 
> EXPERIMENTALLY 
> AT HIGH PRICE----HAS ERROR.  THERE IS A WHOLE LITERAT5URE OF ERROR 
> MEASUREMENT, ESTIMATION, AND MODELING IN THE FIELDS OF STATISTICS 
> AND 
> BIOSTATISTICS.  FORTUNATELY IT IS TOO TECHNICAL FOR ME TO READ OR I 
> WOULD PROBABLY BORE MOST READERS WITH IT. 
> 
> BUT THE UPSHOT IS THAT WE BENEFIT FROM MANY KINDS OF DATA THAT IS 
> NOT 
> (AND CAN'T BE) ERROR FREE. 
> In balance I must say that "this is how it works" with some and in 
> some
> quarters - and is how it should work. But here in the eastern US?  I 
> 
> have seen a lot more "our way or the highway" than reason and a 
> spirit 
> of cooperation.
> 
> THIS IS TOO SUBTLE FOR ME, RON.  I GUESS IT DOESN'T REFER TO 
> BUTTERFLY 
> FLOWER PLANTINGS ALONG HIGHWAYS---OR DOES IT. 
> 
>  This "bad attitude" and elitism has come from someplace.
> IS BAD ATTITUDE AN INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE OF ELITISM? 
> 
> THIS DISCUSSION BEGAN NEARLY A CENTURY AGO WITH THE FIRST AUDUBON 
> SOCIETY CHRISTMAS BIRD COUNTS. THERE ARE NUMEROUS PAPERS THAT 
> ATTEMPT TO 
> MAKE "SCIENTIFIC" USE OUT OF THE CBC DATA AND NUMEROUS CRITICISMS OF 
> THE 
> DATA QUALITY, ARGUING THAT THE COUNTS ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC.  
> NONETHELESS, 
> RATHER ELEGANT MAPS HAVE BEEN PRODUCED SHOWING THE WINTER 
> DISTRIBUTION 
> OF BIRDS WHICH (DESPITE THE ABUNDANT OPPORTUNITY FOR ERROR IN OVER 
> 1000 
> CENSUSES OF ABOUT 500 SPECIES), THE MAPS AND PLOTS MAKE SENSE. 
> 
> I ENCOURAGED NABA TO DROP THE 15 MILE CIRCLE, ARGUING THAT 
> BUTTERFLIES 
> AREN'T BIRDS (EVEN THOUGH MANY BUTTERFLY COUNTERS ARE ALSO BIRD 
> COUNTERS). I LOST, BUT STILL THINK THAT IT WOULD BE MORE PRODUCTIVE 
> TO 
> TARGET SPECIFIC HABITATS OF MORE MANAGEABLE SIZE AND COUNT THEM MORE 
> 
> CONSISTENTLY.  BUT, I ALSO AM COMPILER ON THREE 4JC COUNTS, SO I 
> DON'T 
> PREACH WHAT I PRACTICE OR VICE VERSA. 
> 
> mike gochfeld
>  
> 
>  
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