Fwd: Re: A re-subspecies concepts forward.

[warrena at bcc.orst.edu]

This is fine and dandy, but I still have not seen an
actual definition of a subspecies... These posts 
certainly don't offer one... Still waiting...

Andy

Quoting Ron Gatrelle <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>:

> Nature potpourri is a Yahoo!groups chat site
> with 267 members (a little
> smaller than leps-l)  They have picked up this
> thread there from some cross
> postings by the owner of the site - Bob
> Parcelles Jr.   I am here posting
> two of them.  I highly recommend this group.  It
> is _not_ a leps group. It
> is focused on environmental issures and thus has
> people from all wildlife
> fields who subscribe.  The URL is:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri
>
> Here are the two posts.
> __________________________
>
>  "Alex Netherton" <alexnetherton at w...>
> Date:  Sun Nov 25, 2001  3:18 am
> Subject:  Re: [Nature Potpourri] FW: Species
> Concepts (this is long and
> somewhat technical.) a must read
>
>
> "Subspecies have become less and less popular
> since the works of Hennig (1966: Phylogenetic
> Systematics) and the subsequent rapid rise of
> cladistics and the use of cladograms to
> summarize
> relationships (as well as the rapid rise of
> competing
> species concepts). Subspecies are essentially
> never
> used in most animal and plant groups. "
>
> Curious about subspecies not being used in most
> animal groups. I am a
> lifelong Naturalist, and somewhat of a
> generalist. What is an Elaphe
> obsoleta quadrivittata? (In a manual dated
> 1991), or a Thamnophis sirtalis
> semifasciatus? How 'bout Esox americanus
> vermiculatus? Or even Quercus
> rubra borealis?   It looks like it may be time
> to revisit the "species
> concept", and to
> realize that in Carl von Linne's day, all
> species were considered to be
> fixed by divine fiat at the moment of creation,
> *and would never change*.
> Truth is that life itself is very fluid, the
> gene pools that make up
> "species" are very fluid, and that fluidity is
> changing, and in many cases,
> changing before our eyes. The absolute stupidity
> (IMHO) is calling a
> warbler a Yellow Rumped, when there are two
> forms of it, the Audubon's, and
> the Myrtle. Oh sure, they
> interbreed where the ranges overlap, +but do you
> see a raggledy swarm of
> intergrades+?    No, you see a few intergrades,
> with the overwhelming
> majority
> being distinguishable as Myrtles or Audubons.
> Now, of course, this goes on
> in other taxa, and there has to be some genetic
> basis for it, and, in all
> likelihood, this is speciation, going on, right
> under our noses.
> A'Course, I don't feel like challenging Linnaeus
> today; Adam named
> everything, Linnaeus fixed the names for all
> time.
> Alex Netherton
> The Appalachian Naturalist
> Asheville, NC
> http://www.appalachian-naturalist.com
> alex at a...
>
> ___________________
>
> joecoffy3 at a...
> Date:  Sun Nov 25, 2001  4:59 am
> Subject:  Re: [Nature Potpourri] FW: Species
> Concepts
>
> Nice post Alex,
>
> Working with birds all of my professional life.
> I find the subspecies
> concept alive and well. I found the
> entomologists earlier describing
> a whole different set of criteria. Very
> fascinating. I have been very
> interested in sympatric and allopatric
> populations. The dynamic
> equilibrium of most gene pools (in time and
> place just seem to be
> waiting for something to cause population
> differentiation). Fluid is
> certanily the right word. I hope this thread is
> boring no one. if you
> are a birder or bug watcher or collector or herp
> person it should be
> most informative. But the most sophisticated
> "subspecies" work most
> be with plants. I mean the diferences in
> niche,etc.
>
> Bob and I have been recently discussing his work
> with Yellow Warblers
> (golden).
> He has long been trying to find ecological and
> behavioral barriers
> (isolating mechanisms) to substitute for weak
> geographical or physical
> ones. Of
> course in florida there is a very finite
> geological history. But the West
> Indian influence is what makes it utterly
> fascinating. The Florida Keys is
> a
> living workshop for one who is interested in
> zoological subspeciation. More on this later.
>
> Joe Coffy
>
> _________________________
>
> New from Ron: It looks to me that Andy has
> painted a picture of these folks
> re subspecies that is quite different than what
> the paint of themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
>    For subscription and related information
> about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>

----- End forwarded message -----

 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl