Do Monarchs need Paul Cherubini?

[Patrick Foley]

Nigel,

You are misunderstanding my point. I am happy to see anyone questioning Brower's
science. I do not understand why Paul Cherubini appears to question Brower's
scientific integrity.

I gave some of my background because I have asked Cherubini to give some of his.
I notice he still is not answering my key questions.

Patrick Foley

Nigel Venters wrote:

> Well that's the answer for us all then...with your background you can tell
> us about everything...we accept it and we can forget any more questions or
> research...why bother?
> Nigel
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Foley" <patfoley at csus.edu>
> To: "Jim Taylor" <drivingiron at earthlink.net>
> Cc: <monarch at saber.net>; "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Do Monarchs need Paul Cherubini?
>
> > Jim and Rene,
> >
> > Perhaps you are in political agreement with Paul, which I probably am not.
> But
> > whatever your politics, you must admit that Paul constantly attacks Paul
> > Ehrlich, Lincoln Brower and other scientists, that Paul never budges on
> any
> > issue, and that Paul is evasive about his motives. What I also notice is
> that he
> > has started to make similar noises on the professional ecologists' list
> ECOLOG-L
> > in a style that looks to me like a lobbyist or PR man. I am very likely
> wrong,
> > but I want it cleared up.
> >
> > Don't you want to know if you are being spun? Or would you just prefer to
> have
> > your own ideas reflected. I can live with Paul's strident attacks, but I
> want to
> > know where they are coming from? Don't you want to know whether my
> insistent
> > disagreements with Paul are being paid for by a communist-environmentalist
> > consiracy?
> >
> > In answer to your possible question, I am a moderate Democrat with
> slightly
> > hawkish tendencies who believes we should socialize medicine but leave
> most of
> > the rest of the free-market as alone as possible. I am paid to teach
> biology to
> > students at CSUS, and I have been given no political or environmental
> agenda by
> > the head of my department or anyone else. The only contract money I have
> > received in the past five years has been as a consultant on extinction
> issues by
> > Southern Edison and by NOAA, and neither sums were enough to buy a vote
> much
> > less a PR man. I work (gratis) with my wife on the epidemiology of
> tick-borne
> > disease. Ten years ago I worked half-time as a scientist (not a lobbyist
> or PR
> > man) for the California Forestry Association studying Northern Spotted Owl
> > population dynamics. My 1986 PhD at UCDavis was on the theory of
> population
> > genetics in small populations, but most of my research work since then has
> been
> > ecology or epidemiology. I have no prejudice against government or
> business, but
> > my eyes are open, I do vote, do know what a lobbyist does, do know what
> the
> > Wise-Use movement is. I have surely been biased, as most biologists have,
> > towards an environmentalist view, by doing research on the natural world,
> thus
> > seeing what is really happening to it. I object to evasion and to
> obliviousness.
> >
> > Patrick Foley
> > patfoley at csus.edu
> >
> > Jim Taylor wrote:
> >
> > > List + Pat:
> > >
> > > I, for one, find Paul to be a calm and reasoning voice midst large
> > > quantities of smoke and mirrors. He is almost always under attack -
> > > frequently strident - and he keeps his cool.
> > >
> > > Jim Taylor
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Patrick Foley" <patfoley at csus.edu>
> > > To: <monarch at saber.net>
> > > Cc: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> > > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 8:52 PM
> > > Subject: Do Monarchs need Paul Cherubini?
> > >
> > > > Dear Lepsters,
> > > >
> > > > Am I the only one who has noticed that
> > > >
> > > > 1) Paul Cherubini has accused me of embracing dishonest science
> although I
> > > am
> > > > clearly on record against scientific error while recognizing that
> error is
> > > part of
> > > > the business of science. Somehow Paul thinks that when Paul Ehrlich
> > > predicts the
> > > > future, all environmentalists should feel responsible if he is wrong.
> > > There is a
> > > > difference between scientific research and speculative prophecy. Most
> of
> > > us
> > > > understand this. Paul pretends not to.
> > > >
> > > > 2) Paul Cherubini has not answered my question concerning his
> financial
> > > interests
> > > > in the Monarch business.
> > > >
> > > > 3) Paul Cherubini has yet to answer the claims that he takes on false
> > > email
> > > > identities for lobbying purposes.
> > > >
> > > > I want to make it clear that while I disagree with many things Paul
> says,
> > > he
> > > > certainly knows a lot about Monarchs. But I cannot trust anything he
> says
> > > until he
> > > > answers these questions. Can you?
> > > >
> > > > Patrick Foley
> > > > patfoley at csus.edu
> > > >
> > > > Paul Cherubini wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Pat wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Jim, I also am dubious about Brower's figures, but I can't
> > > > > > find out how he calculated them except hearsay.
> > > > > > Does anyone have a pointer to a Brower paper which clears this up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat, here is the paper that Brower is preparing:
> > > > > http://www.saber.net/~monarch/kustbrower.JPG
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is well established that many corporations have lied,
> > > > > > cheated and stolen using bogus science. Consider the tobacco
> industry
> > > > > > alone, but there are plenty of examples. Academic fraud occurs but
> is
> > > > > > relatively rare.  Any honest person who has worked for
> > > > > > industry (as I have) knows how much pressure there is to fudge.
> > > > > > Are you disagreeing with me from principle or are you being paid
> to do
> > > > > > so?
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat, I guess we disagree about what constitutes academic dishonesty.
> > > When
> > > > > a scientist slants or distorts data or the interpretation of data in
> a
> > > way that
> > > > > overstates a human health or environmental concern, I consider it
> > > academic
> > > > > dishonesty. However, you apparently feel that if a scientist slants
> or
> > > distorts
> > > > > in order to draw attention to an environmental concern, then it
> should
> > > be
> > > > > considered merely exaggerating or overstating the concern.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, in regard to Paul Ehrlich's predictions of ecosystem
> > > > > collapse and global famine during the 80's and 90's you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Paul Ehrlich does exaggerate, but almost all of the dangers he
> > > identifies are
> > > > > real, do need attention, and have gotten attention precisely because
> of
> > > > > doomsayers like him."
> > > > >
> > > > > Ehrlich: (considered merely exaggerating)
> > > > >
> > > > >  -  "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s and
> > > > >   1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite
> > > > >   of any crash programs embarked upon now. . America's vast
> > > > >   agricultural surpluses are gone."
> > > > >
> > > > > -  America in 1984 would have food shortages so severe that steak
> > > > >   would be $12 a pound, the U.S. unemployment rate would be 27
> > > > >   percent, and India would be an anarchy because of nationwide
> > > > >   food riots.
> > > > >
> > > > > -  "a minimum of ten million people, most of them children,
> > > > >   will starve to death during each year of the 1970s. But this is a
> > > > >   mere handful compared to the numbers that will be starving
> > > > >   before the end of the century"
> > > > >
> > > > >  -  "Before 1985, mankind will enter a genuine age of scarcity .
> > > > >   in which the accessible supplies of 13 key minerals will be
> > > > >   facing depletion."
> > > > >
> > > > > Tobacco executive (considered lying or using bogus science)
> > > > >
> > > > > - "I do not believe that nicotine is addictive"
> > > > >
> > > > >
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