Do Monarchs need Paul Cherubini?

[Joel Lyons]

Bob Parcelles,Jr. wrote:

> --- Patrick Foley <patfoley at csus.edu> wrote:
> > Dear Lepsters,
> >
> > When I write about the need for more scientific understanding of
> > Monarchs, some
> > of you tell me that I am being elitest.
> >
> > When I call Paul Cherubini on his rude and ill-justified attacks on
> > the
> > scientific integrity of Lincoln Brower and Paul Ehrlich, some of
> > you tell me I
> > am being rude and strident.
> >
> > When I point out that the world does have environmental problems
> > that need
> > fixing, and that it is more worthy of a human to work on them than
> > to attack
> > those who work on them, some of you tell me that I am simply wrong.
> >
> > When I point out that Paul Cherubini has been evasive about
> > fundamental issues
> > of honesty on this and other email lists, what are you telling him?
> >
> > I do not want to silence Paul on this list, I want to know who it
> > is that I
> > spend so much time struggling with. I readily admit that Paul knows
> > more about
> > Monarchs than I do (although some of what he knows appears to be
> > wrong). I
> > readily admit that I learn from his observations, and need to
> > rethink difficult
> > issues due to his criticisms. Does Paul learn anything from this
> > list? Even
> > after being soundly refuted (as I see it) on some issues he raises
> > the same
> > points on this and other lists as if no one had every shown that
> > his ideas were
> > doubtful. I am not asking Paul to recant. I just want these debates
> > to get to a
> > higher level.
> >
> > The reason science (whether conducted by PhD's or not) makes
> > progress is that we
> > realize when we are wrong, and if there are unsettled issues, we do
> > not pretend
> > (as I see Paul doing) that they have been settled on his side. A
> > good scientist,
> > an honest mind, admits doubt. When I teach students about
> > speciation, I
> > dutifully explain Ernst Mayr's theories, even though I think he is
> > wrong about
> > several. To do otherwise would be to mislead the students about the
> > diversity of
> > ideas. In the ongoing debate about nonlocal butterfly releases, I
> > recognized
> > several of the points my "opponents" made, while searching for a
> > consensus. And
> > at no time did I suggest that anyone was wrong because they did not
> > have a PhD.
> > I did suggest a deeper understanding of evolution, ecology and
> > epidemiology was
> > needed, and that little empirical work directly settled the
> > question. When I see
> > a similar openness in a person, I recognize a scientist.
> >
> > There are settled scientific questions. The Earth is about 4.6
> > Billion years
> > old. There are about 6 billion people on earth, and the annual
> > growth rate is
> > about 1.5%, and most of us would like to own ranches and drive
> > large trucks up
> > and down the green earth until there is no green earth left. This
> > is not a
> > debating issue. This is the world any honest human can see. And
> > something needs
> > to be done about it. Whether you are a socialist, a Chicago school
> > economist, a
> > libertarian biker or an African Bushman, your future is shrinking
> > unless you get
> > your mind and your heart in gear soon.
> >
> > This isn't about me and Paul Cherubini, this is about recognizing
> > the problems
> > and solving them. If you don't want to help, get out of the way and
> > let Brower,
> > Ehrlich and the other "doomsayers" deal with the mess we are all
> > making. If
> > environmentalism makes you feel so guilty that you can't see the
> > obvious and you
> > can't think straight, grow up. As Clint Eastwood said in the film
> > Unforgiven,
> > "We've all got it coming, kid."
> >
> > Patrick Foley
> > patfoley at csus.edu
> >
>
> Excellent Pat,
>
> I think this thread has brought out the inherent differences to
> befound on this list. Lepidoptery is so beseiged by such divergent
> interests, all being attacked by one faction or another that breeders
> like Rene have to feel protective of Paul because he is "supportive"
> of them. this does not excuse the attacks on sicentists and their
> integrity. Chuck is still in a dream world. If you do not see bogey
> men you are blind and naive my friend. I think I expouse no
> "conspriacy theories. Any one who sees no concerted effort to do away
> with our wild lands and utilize our natural reesources with unbridled
> lust is either on the "payroll" or a dam gfool. we need none of these
> people trying to stifle science or the excahnge of ideas.
>
> This guy's Message
>
> "Joel Lyons (jrlyons at bellsouth.net)
> Subject: Re: Do Monarchs need Paul Cherubini?
>
> "This is badly spelled equivocating self
>  congratulating by assocation crap."
>
> This shows his stupidty and the spontaneity of an asshole. I have no
> ego problem with having worked and known some people whose names are
> know to the public. I have paid my dues to society, our military,
> science and the environment and still work 18 hours a day. Joel, what
> the hell have you done?  If my post offended you why did you not just
> delete it keep your mouth shut! What o you do except flame a person
> who has neuropathy in his hands. I will meet you anywhere for a
> spelling bee and kick your smart-ass arse when you lose!
>
> And Paul, all you do is start trouble and anybody who can not see
> through a good deal of your "data" just fell of the turnup truck. Get
> a life. This debate has gone on ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
>
> I am getting tired of some of the apologists for these anti science
> idiots. There is a tremendous amoint of fascinating material to be
> shared about butterflies and moths without this continual posturing.
> I have only tried to satirize the flamers and I have been quiter easy
> on on replying to some of the absurdity I read here.
>
> For people who love and work with a group of organisms so dependant
> on the preservation and proper management of ecosytems to be so anti
> environment is beyond comprehension. I have no predujudice against
> any form of fancier. I carry 6 nets in my field vehicle. I have close
> focusoing binocs. I will probably rejoin NABA. Breeders right now are
> doing the most important work and are at this moment the busiest on
> the Miami Blue Butterfly Restoration Project. I think most are great
> people annd they are educating a lot of people on leps. while having
> some concern about the genetics of releases it is no big deal since
> butterflys are short lived.
>
> Part of the science process is to challenge results when mistakes are
> found in the methodology, failure of retesting giving the same
> statistical results or contrary data. The forum is peer review.
> Otherwise, personal attacks on scientists who make their living on
> their integrity and reputation is slanderous and should not be
> encouraged by anyone. People who do this should be subject to legal
> remedies. To support  this  "crap" as a few of you do and many
> staying silent is preposterous. If I was Lincoln Brower I would have
> let a civil judge decide this matter years ago.
>
> Enough. This list is not imporant enough at the present time to
> warrant spell checking. I am tired from doing Earth Day for kids the
> past 14 hours (oops! More self equivocating).
>
> Besides, Joel is the only one who has the time to point typos out
> anyway.

   And I pulled all of this off in TWO SENTENCES.

>
>
> rjp
>
> PS: Ron Gatrelle has a hell of a list going!
>
> =====
> Bob Parcelles, Jr
> Pinellas Park, FL
> RJP Associates & Clean Millennium Movement (C2M)
> rjparcelles at yahoo.com
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri
> "Change your thoughts and you change your world."
> - Norman Vincent Peale
>
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