Endangered species act

[Andrew Warren]

For the record, the collector Ron is referring to below is named:

John Kemner (not Kimner)

Species that have been named to honor Kemner include:

Piruna kemneri Freeman
Dalla kemneri Steinhauser
Paratrytone kemneri Steinhauser
Halotus jonaveriorum Burns (named after John Kemner and Avery Freeman)

John currently lives in Oaxaca with his wife.

My understanding of the events are that Kemner specimens confiscated from
private collections in the US were deposited in US museums (more than
one museum including the USNM, AMNH, CMNH and AME, at least).  Material
confiscated directly from Kemner all went to the Museo de Zoologia
in Mexico City, where it has all been spread and curated into their
collection (most of this material was still papered- there were around
15,000 specimens or so that ended up at the Museo de Zoologia).

Andy Warren


On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Shuey" <jshuey at tnc.org>
> Subject: RE: Endangered species act
> 
> 
> > As to the innocents who have been visited by F&WS law enforcement - I
> > personally know three such people.  All of them had extensive dealings
> with
> > folks who have pleaded guilty to violations of the Endangered Species Act
> or
> > the Lacy Act.  All three had many hundreds of specimens that were
> "illegal",
> > and that were at least temporarily confiscated while legal cases were
> made
> > against others (I saw one such stash of "evidence" temporarily stored at
> a
> > museum).  At least one of these friends had their specimens returned to
> > them - grand fathered into legality (and I don't know about the others
> but I
> > assume that they have their specimens back as well).
> >
> 
> F&WS have come to me twice.  Once in regard to the Tom Kral situation and
> the other relative to John Kimner.
> 
> I had exchanged some specimens with Tom and letters.  I had no relative
> specimens and none were taken from my possession.  The Tom Kral situation
> was a non event relative to me.
> 
> I had purchased a number of specimens from John Kimner. (A great naturalist
> and a guy who got screwed by not having all the right paperwork.   I
> understand that the Smithsonian and many other Museums and professionals
> were happed  to encourage his collecting in Mexico and to accept the
> taxonomic gold mine and scientifc data he supplied _free_ to them.)  My 40
> or 50 Kimner specimens were confiscated and were not returned to me.   It
> is interesting that the agent who I worked with thought I would get them
> back.  But I only got the schmidt boxes I sent them in back.  I was under
> the impression that all permits were in order when I boutht them - mostly
> skippers.   None of the Museums had to give back any of their Kimner
> specimens (although I know that in the case of the Allyn Museum, Lee Miller
> had to practically take F&W to court to keep them from taking the various
> Kimner specimens including some that had been designated as types of new
> species.)
> 
> > Granted, I may seem unpatriotic to some folks of this list for defending
> our
> > government (as you know, others have fought and died so that we can enjoy
> > the right to bitch about our government).  But to negatively categorize
> > every person who works for F&WS as "thugs with guns and power"
> demonstrates
> > a lethal combination of both ignorance and stupidity that is difficult
> > tolerate.
> 
> In both instances I dealt with agent _Mr. _____.  I found him very
> courteous and professional.  He called in advance and made appointments.
> In the Kimner situation he visited my home and we determined that I needed
> to give him the specimens.  He left without the specimens and allowed me to
> inventory and document the material and pack it.  During this time my
> mother broke her hip.  He allowed me several weeks more to take care of
> that and not "worry about the bugs".   When I had everything together I
> called him and he returned and took the specimens and provided me with
> proper receipts etc.  I was in no way treated as guilty of anything.
> 
> I know several others who were investigated during that time and their
> "stories" are much different than mine.  The worst was one individual who
> was visited unannounced by an agent at his dental office and told to leave
> immediately.  This individual had nothing in the way of specimens from Kral
> but way so intimidated he gave up a couple of 1940ish old specimens of
> listed entities.   I mentioned this situation to my agent Mr. _____.  He
> said he personally knew the other agent and said he was a hot dog.  My
> agent then told me a story how this other agent had come upon some duck
> poachers.  When one of the poachers said " hey, this one is still alive."
> The agent grabbed the duck and beat its head against something and said
> "not now."
> 
> I have also worked with various people in DNR, Forest Service, and F&W who
> were not law enforcement agents in those agencies.  I have found _all_ of
> them to be very nice people, reasonable, pro-collecting (one person only
> for science - but all the others pro avocational collecting).  The bottom
> line for me is that I have never met a DNR, FS, or F&W agent or biologist
> who I did not like.  All I have encountered are fine people, as John Shuey
> sated.
> 
> I have heard of "bad apples" though - like the one I mentioned above.  This
> should actually be expected as there are loose cannons and bad apples in
> every walk of life.  We need not have blinders on nor be on witch hunts.
> If one stays on the right side of the law one is usually pretty "safe" -
> but not always.   If we treat people with dignity, the normal (non-whacko)
> person will respond in kind.
> 
> Ron Gatrelle
> 
> PS   If my Mexican specimens were returned to Mexico - that is fine with
> me.  If they ended up at the Smithsonian (which is what I heard) that is
> not OK, and I'd like em back.  I fail to see why a private researcher
> should be penalized but a public or government one rewarded for the
> situation.
> 
> PPS  There is doubtless something for everyone to be unhappy about in this
> post as it is middle of the road.   There is such a thing as a Militant
> Moderates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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