[leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in the news yet this winter?

Johnson, Kurt JohnsonK at Coudert.com
Wed Feb 13 10:18:42 EST 2002


I don't think Orley or Lincoln benefit financially.  If someone like Lincoln
was "sane" in the usual American way, they would retire and finally "enjoy
life" instead of being dedicated to what he(they) sees as a real problem for
the Monarch  What does he really have to gain by living 24-7 for the
Monarch?  fame?--he already has it; recognition as a scientist?-- he already
has it?  money?-- he already is an Emeritas Professor with a pension etc.
Same with Orley.... Orley LOSES money on Monarch Watch.... the organization
always has financial difficulties and, as with all "doers for the love of
it" Orley throws in his own money to prop it up.  When folk came to NY for
Monarch Watch, we here pitched in out of our own pockets for planes, places
to stay etc.  Its not like the NY Parks Dept. pays for that....NY Parks is
happy to sponsor the event and provide infrastructure but we lepidopterists
have always had to provide the scientific people ourselves, at our own
cost.... So, I think the answer is, No, none of us get money for this... we
lose money because of it.... not to mention sleep.  I also thought I was
going to have a chance to "retire".... we'll see.

anyway, for what its worth...

KURT

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Walker [mailto:MWalker at gensym.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:23 AM
To: 'Johnson, Kurt'; 'Paul Cherubini'; 'leps-l at lists.yale.edu'
Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in
the news yet this winter?


I'm going to step way out on a controversial limb here, and ask the
following question:

Do Lincoln Brower and Orley Taylor benefit financially from Monarchs and the
associated media attention they arouse?

It's a fair question, and the answer would help me sort out this ongoing mud
flinging.  Accusations of conflict of interest over Paul's financial
interests in pesticides and butterfly releases have been made here
repeatedly (which I also have no facts on), so I thought I'd dare the
question.

Thanks for any help,

Mark Walker
confused, skeptical, suspicious, and currently way in the red over my
passion for lepidoptera

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnson, Kurt [mailto:JohnsonK at Coudert.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:12 PM
> To: Johnson, Kurt; 'Paul Cherubini'; 'leps-l at lists.yale.edu'
> Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in
> the news yet this winter?
> 
> 
> I finally read the rest of this original post by Paul.  We 
> HAVE made the
> good news of the last months available to many many people 
> over our less
> publically visible grass-roots network and yes, its true, the 
> major news
> media like the "negative" (as in everything in the news) and 
> therefore don't
> often pickup the positive...a fact of life and "journalism".  
> The "upswing"
> earlier this year was good news and we all acknowledged it.  
> I have emails
> from Brower being very happy about it etc.  I think Paul 
> makes an unfair
> characterization (I won't say it's a caricature) of both the 
> details of the
> Mexican/North America research toward/ and the nature of, the current
> protocol being adopted on the ground in Mexico.  And it is 
> certainly NOT
> directly connected to demands for money; the fact is that WWF 
> has waited
> months and months and months to even solicit, or be able to 
> solicit, any
> money with its new Monarch Trust entity in Mexico, even 
> though many fellow
> travellers were hoping it would begin to do so.  It has 
> waited all that
> time, in fact, and still not totally in action, to iron out 
> details of the
> scientific protocols and wrinkles in the domestic 
> implementation of it,
> given realities in Mexico.  Also, my experience with scientists on the
> ground in Mexico completely flies in the face of Paul's 
> characterization
> that they are neither objective or not informing people of 
> all the facts
> etc.  This is a delicate area and, in the long run, I suppose 
> best to error
> on the side of caution.  I can't really take the time to 
> address all the
> issues but I really thinks Paul's post below is an unfair, 
> and not fully
> informed, characterization.  If he is concerned about that 
> graph than simply
> email Lincoln Brower, or Orley directly about it and I am 
> sure he will get a
> straightforward answer about their view of it.  
> 
> best,
> KURT
> Dr. Kurt Johnson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnson, Kurt 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:12 PM
> To: 'Paul Cherubini'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Cc: TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in
> the news yet this winter?
> 
> 
> Well there had been some good news until today (Febr. 12) -- 
> front page of
> NY Times and A Section based on report by Dr. L. Brower and 
> Dr. O. Taylor of
> massive die-offs (80% and upwards at the major reserves-- the 
> worst ever!).
> This is going to play out very difficultly now I think.  
> There had been some
> good news up until this very recent event.
> 
> KURT
> Dr. Kurt Johnson
> re:
> Monarch Watch in New York City, a program partnered with the 
> NYC Dept. of
> Parks and Recreation
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Cherubini [mailto:monarch at saber.net]
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 1:24 AM
> To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Cc: TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in the
> news yet this winter?
> 
> 
> Perhaps because the overwintering population is about 35% higher than
> normal and a whopping 3-4 times larger than last winter.
> http://www.saber.net/~monarch/post.jpg  Since the days of 
> Rachel Carson
> and Paul Ehrlich it has seemed unfashionable to report good 
> environmental
> news.
> 
> But monarchs will be in the national news again within days - 
> in the news,
> of
> course, to report trouble. Across the world media stories 
> will soon appear
> showcasing the heavy snow storm and freeze related mortality 
> that occurred
> in Mexico about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> http://www.saber.net/~monarch/kust1.JPG
> http://www.saber.net/~monarch/kust3.jpg
> http://www.saber.net/~monarch/kust2.jpg
> 
> As in all such press releases over the past 20 years, the scientists
> will likely try to link the butterfly mortality to some man-caused
> disturbance
> of the forest (like forest thinning). No where in the 
> articles will this
> graph
> http://www.saber.net/~monarch/post.jpg be shown.  Nor will 
> the articles
> mention that for 13 years monarch scientists have mistakenly been
> predicting the imminent collapse of the monarch migration due to
> deforestation, urban sprawl, pesticide and herbicide use and most
> recently, genetically modified crops. It's just not 
> fashionable to hold
> doomsayer scientists accountable.
> 
> One focus of the upcoming media stories about the storm in Mexico
> will likely be why scientists urgently need more $$$$$$ to figure out
> what an ideal forest canopy structure needs to be created in Mexico
> to minimize butterfly mortality in future storm events. Another focus
> will be why the local people need millions more dollars in support
> money (farm subsidy type payments) in exchange for not harvesting the
> forests.
> 
> All this will sound very reasonable to the lay public and granting
> institutions.  They will never consider the possibility that rare
> catastrophic
> storm related mortality events have been a normal part of the 
> life history
> of the monarch for centuries.  They will never see this graph
> http://www.saber.net/~monarch/post.jpg and thus will
> never know that the monarch population can more than fully
> recover in just 8 months after a catastrophic storm event.
> 
> In other words, they will not know that the monarch population has
> remained stable for decades and therefore that past and 
> ongoing forestry
> practices in Mexico have not adversely affected the size of 
> the monarch
> migration phenomenon.
> 
> Even more disturbing to me personally is that the scientists have not
> made the local people living in and around the monarch 
> sanctuaries aware of
> this graph http://www.saber.net/~monarch/post.jpg and therefore do not
> know that forestry practices in recent decades have not 
> adversely affected
> the the monarch migration phenomenon.
> 
> Paul Cherubini
> Placerville, Calif.
> 
> Photos by David Kust and were lifted from the Journey North website,
> http://www.learner.org/jnorth/spring2002/species/monarch/Updat
e020702.html
without permission, in order to make downloading easy and fast
for leps-l subscribers.

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