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Colin Foley
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Sun Jun 9 12:26:21 EDT 2002
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>Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 21:43:08 -0500
>From: Greg Nielsen <g_nielse at bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
>Sender: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu
>To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
>Reply-to: g_nielse at bellsouth.net
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>
>Jorge,
>
>I never saw any evidence of cannibalism with Pseudolycaena. I raised groups
>of them together in plastic shoe boxes and never saw antisocial behavior. I
>remember finding 3 mature larvae on a single leaf of Inga (The big, flat
>seedpod variety with the edible cotton candy around the seeds), one on top
>and two below all eating together at a single damage hole.
>
>I guess you wouldn't call this gregarious behavior ( like Mechanitis
>larvae) but I have also found larvae of other common, widespread Hairstreaks
>like Theritas hemon and Panthiades pelion in loose groups of 5-10 on
>adjacent leaves. P. pelion is attended by ants and it could be an advantage
>to live in groups but P. marsyas and P. pelion aren't attended by ants.
>
>Greg Nielsen
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jorge Bizarro" <bizarro at bio.ufpr.br>
>To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
>Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 12:29 PM
>Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
>
>
> > Hi Greg
> >
> > This is a very interesting piece of information, why? - because Luis Otero
> > told me that Pseudolycaena and Evenus regalis are canibalistic: from a
>given
> > egg mass, if left "ensemble" ONLY ONE pupates to adult. I've found some
> > isolated Pseudolycaena larvae from time to time (on Erythrina speciosa
> > flowers, by the way), not knowing what it was and, really, only one
> > survived.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Greg Nielsen" <g_nielse at bellsouth.net>
> > To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 11:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
> >
> >
> > > In Colombia, Pseudolycaena marsyas lays eggs in groups of 7-12 and the
> > > larvae are gregarious for the first couple of instars on tender new
>growth
> > > leaves. Later instars are usually found on separate older leaves but
> > > sometimes you find 2 or 3 larvae on the same leaf.
> > >
> > > Greg Nielsen
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jorge Bizarro" <bizarro at bio.ufpr.br>
> > > To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:22 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yes, I agree; indeed , my question was on the oddity of all the
> > gregarious
> > > > species that I was able to rear, in diferent families, from egg to
>pupa
> > > > (Actinotes run away from each other after 5 th instar) presenting
>female
> > > > emergence first. I confess they were not too many. So it would be
> > > > interesting to know of others in this condition, to see how far the
> > > > phenomenon is spead out among Lepidoptera; for instance:
> > > >
> > > > Asterocampa spp.
> > > > Eucheira socialis
> > > > Baronia brevicornis
> > > > Thaumatopeia sp, (Pine processionary)
> > > > Dione sp. (Heliconian)
> > > > Euphydryas spp.
> > > >
> > > > Besides: is anyone aware of gregarious Lycaenidae... I can't remember
>a
> > > > single one, but there are a few in Riodinidae (or Riodininae?).
> > > >
> > > > If there isn't a single gregarious species of Lycaenidae, that would
>be
> > > > something really remarkable, for some reason.
> > > >
> > > > Jorge
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Nigel Venters" <nigelventers at ntlworld.com>
> > > > To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:51 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Neil Jones wrote:
> > > > > > The simple explanation as to why males usually hatch first is that
> > > they
> > > > > > develop quicker, being smaller. The larvae pupate earlier and
> > > therefore
> > > > > the
> > > > > > adults emerge earlier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well this is an easy explanation that I have seen written many times
> > > > > before...but I ask myself...why? If it were not advantageous for the
> > > males
> > > > > to hatch first (generally)...then they wouldn't have developed this
> > > > strategy
> > > > > in the first place....also using your own rule of thumb...if we
>apply
> > it
> > > > to
> > > > > the original question...then we must assume that all gregarious
> > > species...
> > > > > where the females hatch first..... the females will be smaller than
> > the
> > > > > males...I don't think so. There must be more to it than this. Try
>some
> > > > hand
> > > > > pairing with Papilio or Nymphalid males less than 3 days old and see
> > how
> > > > you
> > > > > get on.
> > > > > Nigel
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Neil Jones" <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>
> > > > > To: "Nigel Venters" <nigelventers at ntlworld.com>;
> > <bizarro at bio.ufpr.br>;
> > > > > <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; "leps-talk"
><TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:37 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Monday 20 May 2002 09:51 pm, Nigel Venters wrote:
> > > > > > > Here's a shot at it!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In many species males usually hatch first as their claspers and
> > > > aedeagus
> > > > > > > need to harden fully before they can mate successfully..often a
> > few
> > > > > > > days...this allows some dispersion to take place to reduce the
> > > chance
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > pairing with a female from their own brood.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think that this is the ultimate reason for males emerging
> > > > earlier.
> > > > > > When you look at the length of the adult life span ability to
>harden
> > > and
> > > > > mate
> > > > > > earlier would be likely to be subject to high evolutionary
> > pressures.
> > > > > > It would be unlikely that evolution would deliberately delay
>mating
> > > > > > for this reason alone. Even the dispersal argument wouldn't
> > > necessarily
> > > > be
> > > > > > advantagious. It depends on the size of the population in small
> > > > > populations
> > > > > > The Allee Effect could even increase the risk of local
>extinctions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The simple explanation as to why males usually hatch first is that
> > > they
> > > > > > develop quicker, being smaller. The larvae pupate earlier and
> > > therefore
> > > > > the
> > > > > > adults emerge earlier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are other intincitve mechanisms that work against sibling
> > > matings.
> > > > > > Instictive measures like this are not uncommon. There is one in
>Homo
> > > > > sapiens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe in gregarious species...as there is a high concentration
>of
> > > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > brood in exactly the same place...nature by allowing the females
> > to
> > > > > hatch
> > > > > > > first causes an even further dispersion to occur before the
>males
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > same brood to hatch, mature and start to pair, thus making it
> > > unlikely
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > pair with a sibling. Nigel
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
> > > > > > NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
> > > > > > "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for
>the
> > > > > > butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at
>Crymlyn
> > > Bog
> > > > > > National Nature Reserve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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