[leps-talk] English has become the lingua franca

Wed May 8 23:38:40 EDT 2002

Hmm-- Esperanto left out a few billion people! (and though I met many, even
thirty years ago, who advocated it, I couldn't get a complete Esperanto sentence
out of any of them....)

Del luego,

Woody

Michael Gochfeld wrote:

> Ron,
> Ironically, English has become the lingua franca (I presume French once held
> that distinction).  It offers many disadvantages in terms of grammar, but
> Esperanto (a dream of the 1950's never really caught on).  That would have
> given us the opportunity to coin a whole new bunch of vernacular names. MIKE
> GOCHFELD
>
> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Niklas Wahlberg" <Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se>
> > To: "leps-talk" <TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] Dutch Names !!! No Finnish names!
> >
> > > No, no! I think Finnish names are even better! There are even less people
> > > speaking it in the world and we have such wonderfully long names. How
> > about
> > > punakeltaverkkoperhonen (Euphydryas aurinia)??!! :-D And the great thing
> > is
> > > that you pronounce it like you pronounce the latin names...
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Niklas
> > >
> > > PS its almost summer here, saw a male auroraperhonen (Anthocharis
> > > cardamines) and a couple of lanttuperhonen (Pieris napi) on my way to
> > work
> > > this morning.
> >
> > Remember that I just got back so I am in a time warp on this thread -
> > working my way up.
> >
> > The posts by Niklas and Guy are actually very important.  We in the US are
> > so myopic when we view everything.  We see "English" as the language of the
> > gods - the original and real human tongue.   It is well to remind us that
> > in other lands and cultures "we" do not have the faintest idea of what the
> > common names of "their" butterflies are.  An auroraperhonen, what's that?
> > When the Finn reply's to us that it is a *Anthocharis cardamines* we go,
> > oooh, I know what that is.   Well, at least we should _know_ what that is.
> >
> > Herein lies the bedrock of Scientific Epithets - latinization.  Scientific
> > zoological, botanical, bacteriological etc. names are in a universal
> > language spoken and understood by all scientists the world over.  And not
> > only they but in MOST biotic areas, by all the amateurs in that area also.
> > Latinization is the universal language of nomenclature and is known and
> > accepted by all professionals and amateurs the world over, and has been
> > such for a couple hundred years.
> >
> > We could give common names to slime mold or lice or mites all day long and
> > have them broadcast every day by CNN and accompanied by close up pictures
> > with each name -  and there would be no mass rush to buy the latest Guide
> > to Mites and Lice or to purchase microscopes.   This should not even need
> > to be said, but _the_ reason _so many_folks get involved with things like
> > birds (not snakes) and butterflies (not spiders) is because they are so
> > appealing to the human eye and spirit.   Their names (terms of
> > identification) are almost irrelevant.  As James said, this idea that we
> > _have_ to have a earthy name in a common tongue or no one will be
> > interested is a myth (big lie - his word).
> >
> > At the same time I see no harm in having two sets of names. One a universal
> > and correct scientific one and the other a common (English, Finn, Chinese,
> > Zulu etc. one).  I also see benefit in this as some people, especially new
> > comers, do relate better _at first_ with terms in their own familiar
> > tongue.  The title of this thread is "Dutch Names !!! No Finnish names!"
> > I say yes, Dutch, Finnish, English, Korean.  But no one of these languages
> > should be imposed upon the rest of the world as what all "common names" of
> > butterflies should be.
> >
> > Sadly, many of those of English orientation in the US and Canada don't seem
> > to quite get this.  They push for English names for the whole world.   Yet
> > it never never never never occurs to them that ORANGE TIP is just as
> > "foreign" to a Mongolian as AURORAPERHONEN is to anyone in the US and
> > Canada.  So let's just stick with one "language"  that is already
> > universal - scientific latinization - on the world wide level.  Everyone,
> > has to learn those linguistic terms and at the same time no one national
> > group is exalted above the  rest of humanity by having their language
> > become the Official Names Language (e.g. English).  (The United Nations has
> > recently issues a report that they are alarmed and concerned about the
> > hundreds of languages - and the unique culture-thoughts they convey -
> > around the world that are becoming _extinct_.  In the view of some, English
> > is the Kudzu of the linguistic world.)
> >
> > At the national and regional linguistic levels common names are fine - even
> > preferred at an entry level.  If I did not wholeheartedly believe in the
> > value and utility of a standardized set of common English names of
> > butterflies and skippers for the US and Canada (excluding Quebec if they
> > want, and Miami if they want) I would not be spending so much of my time
> > (LIFE- the most valuable thing I have) working _hard_ to find and publish
> > the most widely used names as found in the Standardized Common North
> > American Butterfly Names SC-NABN at http://www.tils-ttr.org
> >
> > The fact that I know, and have said here, how much more important
> > Scientific epithets are is apples and oranges.  As I have stated before,
> > latinized scientific "names" are not really even names.  They are proper
> > scientific definations - just like Au is for gold.  They convey evolutional
> > relationships and biological history.  While the _names_ Dainty Sulphur,
> > Orange Sulphur, Cloudless Sulphur, and Lyside Sulphur - are all _called_
> > "Sulphurs", the term sulphur here is just a slang term.  That is, it has no
> > proper origin (it is arbitrary to a particular culture) or scientific
> > application (it is does not convey accurate relationships) .
> >
> > One the other hand Nathalis iole, Colias eurytheme, Phoebis sennae eubule,
> > and Kricogonia lyside, are not names.  They are latinized epithets formed
> > in compliance with the rules of the International Commission on Zoological
> > Nomenclature (this is why the C in Colias is capitalized and the e in
> > eurytheme is not) and as such are scientific conveyances of the
> > hierarchical organic relationship of these organisms.   This is why only
> > latinized scientific names _can be_ the Correct "names" of organic
> > entities.
> >
> > Ron Gatrelle
> >
> > PS  I will get my field report up ..... sometime.
> >
> >
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