[leps-talk] English has become the lingua franca

Thu May 9 11:06:09 EDT 2002

Chris read my post.  I did not say that that scientific names should not
change!!  I have said a hundred times on this list that they should be
changing that that reflects new knowledge and I hope they change frequently.

I have also said that field identifiable forms do not change their looks
just because the taxonomy changes.  The common butterfly name can stay the
same (unless of course it is split)  But renaming genera does not nave to
affect common names.  Finding out that there is a more appropriate name for
a species or subspecies by the rules or by historical use does not have to
change the common name.  All of these changes in the scientific names are
good.

Barb

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On
Behalf Of Chris J. Durden
Sent: May 9, 2002 1:35 AM
To: tiLS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
Cc: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
Subject: RE: [leps-talk] English has become the lingua franca

Barb,
    That is not a problem but an asset! Change of name is usually at the
generic level as more is discovered about relationships; or at the specific
level as old errors are corrected and subspecies are recognized as full
species. I see no problem with a passage from the Araxes Pyrrhopyge to the
Arizona Apphyrothrix if that is what the latest taxonomic opinion requires.
These kind of changes do not happen that often and are usually long overdue
when they do. I have difficulty thinking of this one as the Arizona
Firetail as its tail is not really fiery. You would probably recognize a
Leto Speyery and a Cybely Speyery and probably even a Carpenter's-like
Speyery but you might want to make one or more of these a trinomial
according to the taxonomic opinion of the moment on subspecific
relationship.
    The Compton Tortoiseshell (named by Gosse after Compton in the Eastern
Townships of Quebec, where he found it) is an entrenched name of many and
old usage. The recent misspelling of Compton's should be corrected as it
was not named after a person.
    " I would advocate this approach for coining new common names for those
species that did not have a well established American (or Canadian) English
common name." - - - this lets the old favorite names off the hook and the
scientists will just have to look these up.
..................Chris

At 01:06 AM 5/9/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Chris,
>
>The main problem with your proposal is that it ties the names to a
>particular taxonomic interpretation.. There is a lot of flux in the
>scientific names of butterflies AND THAT IS GOOD - things are being
>discovered and new alignments made.  There will be some as the result in
>common names but far less.  So a ssp becomes a species name - no big deal.
>So a species is sunk to ssp level - still no problem.  Compton's
>Tortoiseshell will be Compton's Tortoiseshell (unless NABA trashes the
name)
>no matter what happens to the scientific name.
>
>Barb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris J. Durden [mailto:drdn at mail.utexas.edu]
>Sent: May 9, 2002 1:03 AM
>To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
>Cc: tiLS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [leps-talk] English has become the lingua franca
>
>
>I have noticed that in some languages like French the default common name
>for a species is formed by vernacularizing the scientific name. If we
>applied this useful rule to English we could enjoy such names as the
>Antiope Nymphaly, the Plexippe Danay, the Rape Pieris, Macoun's Oenean and
>Fritz(gaertner)'s Celaenorrhine. This was tried in the 19th Century as
>noted by Scudder but did not seem to catch on. The advantage to this system
>would be that those who knew the scientific names would know which species
>was being talked about and others would no longer be intimidated by Latin
>word order and foreign-sounding words.
>     I would advocate this approach for coining new common names for those
>species that did not have a well established American (or Canadian) English
>common name. Another benefit would be that no common name would be longer
>than two or three words.
>     Remember that kids have no trouble with words they learn early. My
>mother was a gardener and she claimed my first word was Rhododendron.
>................Chris Durden
>
>
>At 11:38 PM 5/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hmm-- Esperanto left out a few billion people! (and though I met many,
even
> >thirty years ago, who advocated it, I couldn't get a complete Esperanto
> >sentence
> >out of any of them....)
> >
> >Del luego,
> >
> >Woody
> >
> >Michael Gochfeld wrote:
> >
> > > Ron,
> > > Ironically, English has become the lingua franca (I presume French
once
> > held
> > > that distinction).  It offers many disadvantages in terms of grammar,
>but
> > > Esperanto (a dream of the 1950's never really caught on).  That would
>have
> > > given us the opportunity to coin a whole new bunch of vernacular
names.
> > MIKE
> > > GOCHFELD
> > >
> > > Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Niklas Wahlberg" <Niklas.Wahlberg at zoologi.su.se>
> > > > To: "leps-talk" <TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:17 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] Dutch Names !!! No Finnish names!
> > > >
> > > > > No, no! I think Finnish names are even better! There are even less
> > people
> > > > > speaking it in the world and we have such wonderfully long names.
>How
> > > > about
> > > > > punakeltaverkkoperhonen (Euphydryas aurinia)??!! :-D And the great
> > thing
> > > > is
> > > > > that you pronounce it like you pronounce the latin names...
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Niklas
> > > > >
> > > > > PS its almost summer here, saw a male auroraperhonen (Anthocharis
> > > > > cardamines) and a couple of lanttuperhonen (Pieris napi) on my way
>to
> > > > work
> > > > > this morning.
> > > >
>
>
>
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