[leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence

Jorge Bizarro bizarro at bio.ufpr.br
Fri May 24 14:22:50 EDT 2002


Yes, I agree; indeed , my question was on the oddity of all the gregarious
species that I was able to rear, in diferent families, from egg to pupa
(Actinotes run away from each other after 5 th instar) presenting female
emergence first. I confess they were not too many. So it would be
interesting to know of others in this condition, to see how far the
phenomenon is spead out among Lepidoptera; for instance:

Asterocampa spp.
Eucheira socialis
Baronia brevicornis
Thaumatopeia sp, (Pine processionary)
Dione sp. (Heliconian)
Euphydryas spp.

Besides: is anyone aware of gregarious Lycaenidae... I can't remember a
single one, but there are a few in Riodinidae (or Riodininae?).

If there isn't a single gregarious species of Lycaenidae, that would be
something really remarkable, for some reason.

Jorge

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Venters" <nigelventers at ntlworld.com>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence


> Neil Jones wrote:
> > The simple explanation as to why males usually hatch first is that they
> > develop quicker, being smaller. The larvae pupate earlier and therefore
> the
> > adults emerge earlier.
>
> Well this is an easy explanation that I have seen written many times
> before...but I ask myself...why? If it were not advantageous for the males
> to hatch first (generally)...then they wouldn't have developed this
strategy
> in the first place....also using your own rule of thumb...if we apply it
to
> the original question...then we must assume that all gregarious species...
> where the females hatch first..... the females will be smaller than the
> males...I don't think so. There must be more to it than this. Try some
hand
> pairing with Papilio or Nymphalid males less than 3 days old and see how
you
> get on.
> Nigel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil Jones" <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>
> To: "Nigel Venters" <nigelventers at ntlworld.com>; <bizarro at bio.ufpr.br>;
> <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; "leps-talk" <TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
>
>
> > On Monday 20 May 2002 09:51 pm, Nigel Venters wrote:
> > > Here's a shot at it!
> > >
> > > In many species males usually hatch first as their claspers and
aedeagus
> > > need to harden fully before they can mate successfully..often a few
> > > days...this  allows some dispersion to take place to reduce the chance
> of
> > > pairing with a female from their own brood.
> >
> >
> > I don't think that this is the ultimate reason for males emerging
earlier.
> > When you look at the length of the adult life span ability to harden and
> mate
> > earlier would be likely to be subject to high evolutionary pressures.
> > It would be unlikely that evolution would deliberately delay mating
> > for this reason alone. Even the dispersal argument wouldn't necessarily
be
> > advantagious. It depends on the size of the population in small
> populations
> > The Allee Effect could even increase the risk of local extinctions.
> >
> > The simple explanation as to why males usually hatch first is that they
> > develop quicker, being smaller. The larvae pupate earlier and therefore
> the
> > adults emerge earlier.
> >
> > There are other intincitve mechanisms that work against sibling matings.
> > Instictive measures like this are not uncommon. There is one in Homo
> sapiens.
> >
> > > Maybe in gregarious species...as there is a high concentration of the
> same
> > > brood in exactly the same place...nature by allowing the females to
> hatch
> > > first causes an even further dispersion to occur before the males from
> the
> > > same brood to hatch, mature and start to pair, thus making it unlikely
> to
> > > pair with a sibling. Nigel
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > --
> > Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
> > NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
> > "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> > butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> > National Nature Reserve
>
>
>
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