lepsters and lepers and the Miami Blue

[Anne Kilmer]

As always, Patrick is right on target.

HOWEVER, the first thing to do in every discussion is to define your terms.
Some of us use the word creationists to describe a particular group of 
religious fundamentalists who believe that the Bible, written by God, is 
precisely and literally true, every word of it: Jonah, Noah, Adam and 
Eve, and even the six-day workweek. Some of us here are in that category.

Others of us use the word creationists to describe everyone who thinks 
God created the world. Many of us are in that category, whether or not 
we use that word to describe ourselves.

Any discussion in which you have not agreed on one of these definitions 
of the word "creationist" is basically an awesome waste of everyone's time.

The leps list folks have occasionally suggested that there is a time and 
a place for this discussion, and this ain't it. I lean to that opinion 
myself, and am happy to see bugs discussed here, and bugs and the nature 
of God discussed on leps talk.

As I am subscribed to both lists, I am confused when the combatants, 
pushing and shoving and rolling on the floor, Blazing Saddles style, go 
splashing into all the lists they've subscribed to.

I am a fan of chaos, and have therefore named one of my kittens Thorn, 
after a rune meaning power, energy and chaos. It reminds me that if you 
push too hard it makes a mess and the job doesn't get done.

And meanwhile, as for the alleged Miami Blue, whether the bug spotted in 
the Keys be Hemiargus thomasi bethunebakeri, Cyclargus thomasi 
bethunebakeri, or some other fella, we'll be hearing all about it 
tonight at Gumbo Limbo Nature Center in Boca Raton. (7 p.m; all are 
welcome. This would be a good time for us to sink our differences and 
all agree to work together for our own good, as well as the good of the 
butterflies.
My brother Jesus thinks so, too. ;-)
Cheers
Anne Kilmer
Chief
Miami Blue Crew
(Also ViceChairman-Operations/Task Force Director
Miami Blue Butterfly Restoration Project)


Patrick Foley wrote:

> Lepsters one and all,
> 
> I have been lurking without comment the last couple of months since I am
> extremely busy and because everyone has been right and didn't need
> argument.
> 
> I am sorry to see anyone who love leps leave a list which does in some
> way represent the Lepidopterists Society.
> 
> Please lurk, lick your wounds and post again Ron, ... even if you are
> able to believe 3 impossible things before breakfast. (sure to be corrected
> by a Carroll fan. Incidentally Lewis Carroll was at Oxford at the time
> of the famous Huxley-Wilberforce  Darwinism  debate. Did the Reverend
> Dodgeson attend the debate? Did he ever comment on the
> debate? He owned one book of Darwin's. The Expression of Emotions in MAn
> and the Animals, which has pictures of facial expressions of galvanized
> people. But his library at death shows no other interest in Darwin.)
> 
> (And in related news, the Universe may well be headed for a Big Crunch
> (the Big Bang in Reverse) due to dark energy which may be the scientists
> way of describing Satanic Influence! Is there any way to get out this fix?)
> 
> As a scientist Ron, I assure you my unhappiness at being called an
> atheist or an agnostic, is probably similar to you being called a Zorastrian
> or a
> Muslim? I mean aren't all those Middle Eastern religions about the same?
> Aren't all
> scientists reductionist materialists ready to hook the Pope up with electrodes
> to
> diagnosis his neurological condition?
> 
> Most scientists are scientists because they feel a strong need (as all people
> do)
> to figure out what is going on. Some people get scared by the implications of
> the
> real world, some people settle for less.  Scientists keep trying. That is our
> one virtue.
> Don't deny us that. "Religious" people often have many virtues. Faith may be
> one,
> but it is not a virtue for scientists.
> 
> Are scientists intolerant of religious ideas? Mostly not. We are intolerant of
> arguments
> that can't be settled, indoctrination of children with mistaken ideas (such as
> creationism),
> and the undue influence religious fundamentalism has on domestic and foreign
> policy,
> an influence that is largely pernicious. As a citizen, I respect your right to
> say anything you want.
> But as a citizen, I want the world to be run by people who know what is going
> on, rather than
> by Jerry Falwell, Osama bin Laden, Dubya Bush and cronies.
> 
> I respect Ron's knowledge of Butterfly subspecies in the American SE, and most
> scientists,
> even if they argued with his ideas, would pay them some attention. But
> creationism and evolution
> is my area of expertise and the expertise of science not religion. I have a
> PhD in evolutionary genetics.
> Paleontologists, molecular biologists, geologists and many others have studied
> the
> problem. We speak almost with one voice to say "Creationism is not science it
> is religion."
> We do not say there is no God. We do not say God did not create the world. We
> say that the
> attempt to show that intelligent design is needed to get the world we have is
> not science or
> it is bad science. It is either untestable (in its more grandiose claims) or
> in its clear cut claims it is wrong.
> Complexity can arise spontaneously and has often in the course of geological
> time. Models show
> that complexity does not require design. Does this mean God could not be
> tinkering around with things?
> No. What Gof can or cannot do is pretty hard to test. So preach what you want.
> It soed not offend me.
> But don't tell me it is science. That does. But not enough to want a lepster
> off the list.
> 
> Patrick
> patfoley at csus.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




 
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