Sparring Bugs Question

[MexicoDoug at aol.com]

Nigel,

If I read your (and Chip's) messages between the lines, both of you seem to 
suggest that because the smaller (male) butterfly is looking for a mate he 
becomes more aggressive.  I am certainly with you there.  Then both of you 
seem to make a small leap of faith in the assumption that an aggresive male 
on the prowl can engender fear--observed as a dramatic  fleeing flight-- in a 
much larger butterfly.  

My question focused more on the "Why" that a large insect would take the fear 
to heart instead of moving on ignoring the little fellow and going merrily 
along.  The is a probably hypothetical question as I doubt any observers of 
these scenarios have ever seen a large bug indifferent.  But what could 
possible happen if the little guy caught up to the big one - what damage 
could be done.  Chip seemed to suggest that the large bug (Monarch basically 
in the case) could not see behind him, such that an approach from behind is a 
blind spot of danger, which is basically saying it fools the big guy.

Without getting too nitpicky, I guess I should be happy with all your 
explanations.  Lingering questions though, are:  

Has anyone ever seen (an confirmed) a female participate in sparring (not 
just fleeing)?  

and given a Monarch has bad vision how do they manage to execute such a 
precision mating (combat) ritual?  Sound pretty convincing that they only 
"have eyes for their love, and no one else".  I suppose we could imagine the 
Monarch only has 5 things it can 'visualize' well then:
1. Mate  2. Predator -everything else regardless of size that registers in 
its vision (which could be a small spider-monster with wings that looks like 
a Snout) 3. Good Flowers  4. Good  place to sleep  5.  That special tree in 
Michoacan

#2 above has me doubting as when nectaring the Monarch usually sees me and 
takes flight, but the little caterpillars and other insects on the nectar 
sources do not disturb it in the slightest.

Exactly what damage has been observed inflicted in any case of sparring 
butterflies, even two like males?  Why does one quit and the other prevail, 
if it is just a dance, can the loser simply go to Arthur Murray's flight 
school and come back like Charles Atlas?  When is sparring obligatory in the 
butterfly world-why?-, Might losing be caused when your flight muscles can no 
longer keep up and you risk plummeting to the ground and eaten by something 
else? If it isn't size, what is the formula for getting to the top of the 
hierarchy?  Did someone not eat enough wheaties as a caterpiller?  Surely 
something is testable here and this behavior has be subjected to some rigor?

The African Migrations of Libythea## (I looked at the link below and see just 
how similar the your world's "Beaks" are to our world's "Snouts") you have 
observed were quite interesting.  I would not exactly say that the aggression 
is forgotton during dramatic migrations here, depending on the moods of the 
participants, as there are always a few bugs somewhere in the trees that 
interrupt the random masses with challenges to send them packing.  But that 
is more of a complementary observation when there are trees, etc. around.

http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/insecta/lepidoptera/ditrysia/papilionoide

a/nymphalidae/libytheinae/libythea/celtis-1v.jpg

Thanks,
Douglas Dawn
stelenes at pobox.com
Monterrey, Mexico

Doug,
This is quite a normal male activity for quite a few species of butterfly. 
Even well known migrants like carienta when in a sedentary phase, it's 
European cousin, which looks very similar, is Libythea celtis and acts in the 
same way. Males often have a favourite perch, from which they fly of and 
chase any females of their own species in the hope of pairing. These perches 
are pugnaciously defended by the males, and they often return to the exact 
same twig after a chase. If another male of the same species is now occupying 
the twig, when the butterfly returns...a fight ensues...and the dominant male 
gains the perch. They don't care too much what flies by...but they always see 
anything that does as a threat...and chase it away. It's amazing how small 
butterfly species defend their perches and chase away even the largest 
butterfly that flies by. This is a well known trait of many species and is 
often observed by patient observers. In your case...the passing Monarchs just 
want to move on after such an attack...they have no interest in defending any 
territory. I have seen huge migrations (Multi-millions of them!) of Libythea 
in Africa...where all this bad behaviour is forgotten and they are quite 
happy to co-exist in dense populations without the least sign of aggression.
hope this is of interest.
Nigel 


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <A HREF="mailto:MexicoDoug at aol.com">MexicoDoug at aol.com</A> 
> To: <A HREF="mailto:Leps-l at lists.yale.edu">Leps-l at lists.yale.edu</A> 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Sparring Bugs Question
> 
> 
> Chip (glad to see you are still close to Leps-L),
> 
> You most certainly do know carinenta though by another name.  carinenta is 
> what I call the Snout Butterfly, _Libytheana carinenta_, though I noticed 
> at least on the NFWS-Opler, Harry et.al. site that _bachmanii_  was the 
> previous name for the US, and suspect is still in common use while the 
> species is (are) still being sorted out.  As I recall it has always been 
> carinenta here in Mexico, so I don't have to worry about that name...
> 
> http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/lepid/bflyusa/usa/145.htm
> 
> Snouts definitely migrate, though not in the relatively orderly fasion of 
> Monarchs, more like Pierids which in some lucky places fill the air like 
> snowflakes (perhaps somewhat but not too much an exaggeration).  It seems, 
> from my location, many emerge here and head to South Texas or thereabouts.  
> Since the Snout has the intersting nose-palpae, perhaps the Monarch episode 
> I describe (very common) gives other evolutionary justification for these 
> structures, besides being the petiole (stalk of the leaf that attaches to 
> the stem), but then when I have even seen Rounded Metalmarks do the same, 
> your vision explanation is the only one that makes sense to me so far.  But 
> if a Monarch can recognize its mate, it ought to recognize size - unless - 
> ?? - perhaps size is not very much a part of mate recognition...
> 
> Best.  Doug Dawn
> stelenes at pobox.com
> Monterrey, Mexico
> 
> 
> 
> >> Asunto:Re: Sparring Bugs Question 
>> Fecha:10/22/2002 10:32:44 AM Central Daylight Time
>> De:<A HREF="mailto:chip at ku.edu">chip at ku.edu</A>
>> Para:<A HREF="mailto:MexicoDoug at aol.com">MexicoDoug at aol.com</A>
>> Enviado por Internet 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Doug: Are you describing the behavior of territorial/mate-seeking males? 
>> Male monarchs will sometime chase birds for a few meters. I've also seen 
>> migrating monarchs chased by drone honey bees when I've had the scent of a 
>> queen in the air. The monarchs get goosed along their way. I imagine that 
>> the evasive behavior is simply predator avoidance. Their vision is not 
>> that good especially if something is approaching them from below and 
>> behind. If something approaches them rapidly, they may just get out of the 
>> way. (Drones will chase most anything that moves including medium sized 
>> birds if a queen scent is present.) And, what is carinenta for those of us 
>> who don't know this beastie?
>> 
>> 
>> Chip
>> 
>> >>> 
>>> plexippus apparently in migration pauses in the territory of carinenta.  
>>> carinenta jets out to meet plexippus and buzzes his tail in a "Top Gun" 
>>> style aerial roll, causing plexippus to skedaddle to mama as fast as he 
>>> can.
>>> 
>> >>> Why is plexippus threatened by carinenta specifically, or more 
>>> generally what are little fellows packing to cause the bug guys such f
>>> ear.  Douglas Dawn
>>> stelenes at pobox.com
>>> Monterrey, Mexico
>> 
> 
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