Sparring Bugs Question

Thu Oct 24 04:10:24 EDT 2002

Doug,

I just read Chip's answer concerning the ping-pong ball....this is a great description...the thing is that reflex action comes into play...whenever and whatever threatens the butterfly...when it has no interest in defending a territory. Stopping to check what is that's chasing you, before you take action is not a good survival strategy!

As for your questions

 >>>Has anyone ever seen (an confirmed) a female participate in sparring (not just fleeing)?<<< 

I have never seen a female participating in this action, she has much more to lose as she is carrying the next generation...males are more expendable!

>>Exactly what damage has been observed inflicted in any case of sparring butterflies?<<<

Some examples...The costal vein of the forewing in the African Charaxes are serrated and sharp. Charaxes are strongly territorial...I have seen wings cut clean off in fights. Caligos from Central and South American also lose wings in interaction... these attacks are often directed at the junction of the costal vein..and complete wing loss is not uncommon.

>>>The African Migrations of Libythea## (I looked at the link below and see just how similar the your world's "Beaks" are to our world's "Snouts") you have observed were quite interesting.  I would not exactly say that the aggression is forgotton during dramatic migrations here, depending on the moods of the participants, as there are always a few bugs somewhere in the trees that interrupt the random masses with challenges to send them packing.  But that is more of a complementary observation when there are trees, etc. around.<<<

We also call them Snouts...I have never head of them being called "Beaks" but there again I tend to use Latin names when discussing species. What I meant about aggression in the migrating butterflies....was that there was no aggression between the migrating butterflies.

regards
Nigel

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MexicoDoug at aol.com 
  To: nigelventers at ntlworld.com ; Leps-l at lists.yale.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 4:16 PM
  Subject: Re: Sparring Bugs Question

  Nigel,

  If I read your (and Chip's) messages between the lines, both of you seem to suggest that because the smaller (male) butterfly is looking for a mate he becomes more aggressive.  I am certainly with you there.  Then both of you seem to make a small leap of faith in the assumption that an aggresive male on the prowl can engender fear--observed as a dramatic  fleeing flight-- in a much larger butterfly.  

  My question focused more on the "Why" that a large insect would take the fear to heart instead of moving on ignoring the little fellow and going merrily along.  The is a probably hypothetical question as I doubt any observers of these scenarios have ever seen a large bug indifferent.  But what could possible happen if the little guy caught up to the big one - what damage could be done.  Chip seemed to suggest that the large bug (Monarch basically in the case) could not see behind him, such that an approach from behind is a blind spot of danger, which is basically saying it fools the big guy.

  Without getting too nitpicky, I guess I should be happy with all your explanations.  Lingering questions though, are:  

  Has anyone ever seen (an confirmed) a female participate in sparring (not just fleeing)?  

  and given a Monarch has bad vision how do they manage to execute such a precision mating (combat) ritual?  Sound pretty convincing that they only "have eyes for their love, and no one else".  I suppose we could imagine the Monarch only has 5 things it can 'visualize' well then:
  1. Mate  2. Predator -everything else regardless of size that registers in its vision (which could be a small spider-monster with wings that looks like a Snout) 3. Good Flowers  4. Good  place to sleep  5.  That special tree in Michoacan

  #2 above has me doubting as when nectaring the Monarch usually sees me and takes flight, but the little caterpillars and other insects on the nectar sources do not disturb it in the slightest.

  Exactly what damage has been observed inflicted in any case of sparring butterflies, even two like males?  Why does one quit and the other prevail, if it is just a dance, can the loser simply go to Arthur Murray's flight school and come back like Charles Atlas?  When is sparring obligatory in the butterfly world-why?-, Might losing be caused when your flight muscles can no longer keep up and you risk plummeting to the ground and eaten by something else? If it isn't size, what is the formula for getting to the top of the hierarchy?  Did someone not eat enough wheaties as a caterpiller?  Surely something is testable here and this behavior has be subjected to some rigor?

  The African Migrations of Libythea## (I looked at the link below and see just how similar the your world's "Beaks" are to our world's "Snouts") you have observed were quite interesting.  I would not exactly say that the aggression is forgotton during dramatic migrations here, depending on the moods of the participants, as there are always a few bugs somewhere in the trees that interrupt the random masses with challenges to send them packing.  But that is more of a complementary observation when there are trees, etc. around.

  http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/insecta/lepidoptera/ditrysia/papilionoidea/nymphalidae/libytheinae/libythea/celtis-1v.jpg

  Thanks,
  Douglas Dawn
  stelenes at pobox.com
  Monterrey, Mexico

  Doug,
  This is quite a normal male activity for quite a few species of butterfly. Even well known migrants like carienta when in a sedentary phase, it's European cousin, which looks very similar, is Libythea celtis and acts in the same way. Males often have a favourite perch, from which they fly of and chase any females of their own species in the hope of pairing. These perches are pugnaciously defended by the males, and they often return to the exact same twig after a chase. If another male of the same species is now occupying the twig, when the butterfly returns...a fight ensues...and the dominant male gains the perch. They don't care too much what flies by...but they always see anything that does as a threat...and chase it away. It's amazing how small butterfly species defend their perches and chase away even the largest butterfly that flies by. This is a well known tr! ait of many species and is often observed by patient observers. In your case...the passing Monarchs just want to move on after such an attack...they have no interest in defending any territory. I have seen huge migrations (Multi-millions of them!) of Libythea in Africa...where all this bad behaviour is forgotten and they are quite happy to co-exist in dense populations without the least sign of aggression.
  hope this is of interest.
  Nigel 

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: MexicoDoug at aol.com 
    To: Leps-l at lists.yale.edu 
    Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:22 PM
    Subject: Re: Sparring Bugs Question

    Chip (glad to see you are still close to Leps-L),

    You most certainly do know carinenta though by another name.  carinenta is what I call the Snout Butterfly, _Libytheana carinenta_, though I noticed at least on the NFWS-Opler, Harry et.al. site that _bachmanii_  was the previous name for the US, and suspect is still in common use while the species is (are) still being sorted out.  As I recall it has always been carinenta here in Mexico, so I don't have to worry about that name...

    http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/lepid/bflyusa/usa/145.htm

    Snouts definitely migrate, though not in the relatively orderly fasion of Monarchs, more like Pierids which in some lucky places fill the air like snowflakes (perhaps somewhat but not too much an exaggeration).  It seems, from my location, many emerge here and head to South Texas or thereabouts.  Since the Snout has the intersting nose-palpae, perhaps the Monarch episode I describe (very common) gives other evolutionary justification for these structures, besides being the petiole (stalk of the leaf that attaches to the stem), but then when I have even seen Rounded Metalmarks do the same, your vision explanation is the only one that makes sense to me so far.  But if a Monarch can recognize its mate, it ought to recognize size - unless - ?? - perhaps size is not very much a part of mate recognition...

    Best.  Doug Dawn
    stelenes at pobox.com
    Monterrey, Mexico

      Asunto:Re: Sparring Bugs Question 
      Fecha:10/22/2002 10:32:44 AM Central Daylight Time
      De:chip at ku.edu
      Para:MexicoDoug at aol.com
      Enviado por Internet 

      Doug: Are you describing the behavior of territorial/mate-seeking males? Male monarchs will sometime chase birds for a few meters. I've also seen migrating monarchs chased by drone honey bees when I've had the scent of a queen in the air. The monarchs get goosed along their way. I imagine that the evasive behavior is simply predator avoidance. Their vision is not that good especially if something is approaching them from below and behind. If something approaches them rapidly, they may just get out of the way. (Drones will chase most anything that moves including medium sized birds if a queen scent is present.) And, what is carinenta for those of us who don't know this beastie?

      Chip

        plexippus apparently in migration pauses in the territory of carinenta.  carinenta jets out to meet plexippus and buzzes his tail in a "Top Gun" style aerial roll, causing plexippus to skedaddle to mama as fast as he can.

        Why is plexippus threatened by carinenta specifically, or more generally what are little fellows packing to cause the bug guys such fear.  Douglas Dawn
        stelenes at pobox.com
        Monterrey, Mexico

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