[leps-talk] Releasers -

Sat Apr 26 21:20:24 EDT 2003

Well, this has all been amusing...  Something here is happening, but you
don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?   I could prescribe you some
Mellaril...  cb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suncoast" <rbaker26 at tampabay.rr.com>
To: <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>; <tils-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>;
<leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [leps-talk] Releasers -

Anne Kilmer wrote :-
"As far as I know, commercial breeders have addressed the problems that
NABA cites"

Anne couldn't possibly be more wrong!

Neil Jones wrote: I suspect what I have to say may produce an emotional
response this is not my
intention . I am speaking as an honest scientific type.

Neil I offer to waste my time only because you think you are so darn
logical.

Neil Jones wrote: The IBBA has singularly and totally failed to address
NABA's concerns.

My Comment: NABA- ie (well you know mostly who). Propigandic concerns
relates to "consumptive butterfly endeavors" which in my mind must mean the
release industry. It does not protest the industrial butterfly gardener
which when enticing large broods of plant baited butterflies will sure bring
about plagues in their own rights. I wonder then will they be able to afford
to write a few volumes about the diseases that will surely prevail (at
times) on that turf when this happens? I wonder but then I can only wonder
because I can not predict what they (naba or the butterflies) will do or
even what butterflies might be affected. But perhaps in these artificial
environs the opportunity maybe afforded.

Neil Jones wrote: It is
obvious, clear and unequivocal. This is strong language but it is motivated
by absolute logical reality. If my response angers you please accept that
this is not my intention. I have  known this stuff since I was a little kid.
To me it is so simple that I find it extraordinarily frustrating when other
people cannot see it.

The argument the IBBA propose  is fatally flawed.  For me to explain this it
is necessary for me to delve back into the origins of modern science, to a
concept at its very base.

Let us examine one of the fundamental concepts advocated by the IBBA and its
members. Continuously repeated by the membership this mantra is a central
tenet of their philosophy.

"There is  no evidence that releases do any harm".

For  the purpose of making the point I will concentrate on the question  of
disease, but it applies equally to any of the aspects. This argument  is
flawed.  So old and basic is this fallacy  that it even has a name in Latin!

- "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" - An Argument from Ignorance.

Put simply the argument fails because "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence
of
Absence"

My Comment: You fail to understand that the butterfly breeder must work from
clean stock in sanitary conditions. Sick stock dies or grows improperly and
fails. That would not be good for the butterfly, or the business person.
There are a very few butterflies that the professional qualifies as a
reasonable release butterfly. This is a very narrow scope and specialized.
With this comes specialized concerns that are addressed.
-I do not presume to speak for the IBBA. I speak from what I know and from
what I have learned and seen of others.

Neil Jones wrote: To explain this further let me advance the following
similar but false
argument. " The SARS virus can do me no harm." and the false basis for this
argument "There is no evidence that a Welshman has ever been infected by the
virus." Using this flawed logic since I am a Welshman I cannot be harmed by
it, since there is no evidence that I can.
Of course this argument is complete rubbish. SARS is new so there has rarely
been an opportunity for my fellow countrymen to be exposed, but it directly
parallels the releasers argument on disease.

My Comment: To believe that you are imminent danger of the SARS virus is to
live in fear (that is no way to live). I'd say if the Welch man is going to
engage himself in risky behaviors -such as travel to a know area where SARS
is being proliferated he better wear the protective protocol.
Can we predict if an engineered strain of soya bean will cause a bean
famine? No! Can we predict if a pigeon will wipe out all of NY's finest. No!
It is elitist "middle class" thinking to believe that each garden we grow
does not have an immediate affect and _a potential_. That I agree with.

Neil Jones wrote: NABA are perfectly right to argue that the IBBA are wrong.
Such a basic flaw
in  logic can only indicate one of two things. The proposer is either trying
deliberately to mislead, or is incompetant at the very basics and
fundamentals of science. I'm sorry if this upsets people. Logic is neither
polite nor impolite it just exists. It is no more related to feeling than
the
eight times table. If you can spot a flaw in my logic we can debate it
civilly.

Putting it simply if you use this argument from ignorance you are displaying
to the world what can at best only be described as incompetance.

My Comment: The argument you set forth here relies on the key word being
ignorance. When below you turn around show how little is known. It also
seems to me you are not aware of the clean stock fundamental of the industry
but now I repeat my mantra.

Neil Jones wrote: We know very very little about butterfly diseases.  I once
spent several days
in the British Library going through abstract journals by literally the
trolley load. I examined hundreds of them trying to find information on the
wild ecology of one of the best known insect pathogens, Bacillus
thurigiensis. I did not find a single paper that dealt with its natural
behaviour in the wild. (The only thing I have ever see in a brief mention of
a Bacillus causing disease in Papilio homerus, The endangered Jamaican
Swallowtail) If anyone knows of any please tell me!

My Comment: Neil there are tons of stuff about the insecticide Bacillus
thurigiensis. Start with the net and move on from there. Some other diseases
are few to be named such as the dreaded & studied Oe. Ophryocystis
elektroscirrha catch a few wild Monarch (milk weed) butterfly and you will
see this in the scales- esp. abdominal, 100x V 400x. -Check it out!
Also check out the journal of insect pathology for some good bites of info..
Another -generalized bacterial infection, such is like the compromised human
being attacked by their natural flora or rather naturally prevalent
environmental flora. This would happen in compromised individuals (to much
humidity etc...) and ultimately results in larval illness & death. There is
not a specifically known factor or cure. The breeder does not "treat' this
the stock is a waste! There is some more that is specific but that is enough
for us to chew on in a general discussion to clear up ignorance! Release
industry is specific to a few decent butterflies.

Pesticide is a different subject but VERY relevant and something anyone who
has environmental concerns should put some though to. As well as wearing
personal protection. Such as (currently recommended)))) DEET for misquotes.

Neil Jones wrote: Since we know so little it is foolish to claim there is no
evidence of an
effect. Nobody is looking!

My Comment: Specialists are looking! Release industry is specific to a few
decent performing butterflies.
Perhaps we mix up the problem of pressure to over regulate industry by
extremists vs. good/rational science.

Neil Jones wrote: Finally, in my defence, if you think my language is strong
on this, Bob Pyle
is on record as describing releasers arguments as "biological crap". That is
a rational, logical, scientists view of it. One with a Phd in Butterfly
Ecology from Yale too.

My Comment:  Not very eloquent for a yaleite or is it? Or perhaps it was a
statement for the good ole boys?
--
Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

My Comment: People who know enough to care! And people that care enough
really to know.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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