[leps-talk] Re: Brower replies- The most recent ranting aboutmonarch butterfly conservation

Charles Bordelon legitintellexit at earthlink.net
Thu Oct 9 22:40:13 EDT 2003


Well, then it's a no-brainer as to who the weed-lepidopterists are, then,
isn't it?  cb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Woody Woods" <woody.woods at umb.edu>
To: "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>; "'Charles Bordelon '"
<legitintellexit at earthlink.net>; <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>;
<tils-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; <brower at sbc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [leps-talk] Re: Brower replies- The most recent ranting
aboutmonarch butterfly conservation


> Not only from this list but also from the literature, I am increasingly
> seeing the Monarch as our foremost charismatic weed species-- an
> evolutionary compliment to D. plexippus, really-- an evolutionarily
flexible
> species, including (possible) subspecies, that has worked out a number of
> strategies over its considerable geographic range.
>
> There is so much to be learned here!
>
> I really think this should make the Monarch a poster-lep for all camps.
> Mostly, the hotly contested threads here have been about the eastern
> N.A.-Mexico population. As important as that population is on all levels,
> from conservation to classroom to taxonomy to physiology, it's not the
only
> Monarch population.
>
> I'm asking-- shouldn't we be learning more about other less-studied
> life-history/migratory patterns of the other populations of this overall
> remarkably successful and innovative species? I think there are textbook
> "box" lessons from this to be written yet.
>
> Woody
>
> *************************************************
> William A. Woods Jr.
> Department of Biology
> University of Massachusetts Boston
> 100 Morrissey Blvd
> Boston, MA 02125
>
> Lab: 617-287-6642
> Fax: 617-287-6650
> *************************************************
>
> > From: "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
> > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:52:47 -0400
> > To: 'Charles Bordelon ' <legitintellexit at earthlink.net>,
> > "'neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk '" <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>,
> > "'tils-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com '" <tils-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> > Cc: "'leps-l at lists.yale.edu '" <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>,
"'brower at sbc.edu '"
> > <brower at sbc.edu>
> > Subject: RE: [leps-talk] Re: Brower replies- The most recent ranting
about
> > monarch butterfly conservation
> >
> > I agree entirely with Charlie...this whole thing is getting pretty
> > tiresome...and I was wondering the very same thing as he...what about
the
> > Mexican Government?
> >
> > Another thing that troubles me about Dr. Brower's post below is this:
Why
> > such an emotional introduction to his statement? Was Mr. Cherubimi
actually
> > "ranting"? It did not appear that way to me...Mr. Cherubimi (and do not
> > think that am picking sides here, because I'm not...habitat destruction
is a
> > sad fact everywhere...not only in northern Mexico...it's a significant
> > problem right here in northeastern Massachusetts)is and has been
presenting,
> > with his own documentation...counterpoints to Dr. Brower...whatever the
> > merits of these counterpoints...and unless I'm forgetting something, he
also
> > accuses no one of "ranting"...
> >
> > And, who exactly are the "anti-conservationists"? Here's a question: Can
a
> > passionate Lepidopterist, professional or vocational (or in-between, as
some
> > are on this list), an "anti-conservationist"? I think not...
> >
> > I myself am not, of course, hoping that the Monarch disappears...I only
wish
> > to know the truth...and decade after decade of what is more and more
> > appearing to be "the same old story" (that "the sky is falling"...)
makes me
> > wonder and perhaps makes me even suspicious...
> >
> > And that matter of the $100 million just doesn't help...
> >
> > Again, Monarchs are all over the place here in New England...
> >
> > And that storm and cold front was a natural act, an act of God, if you
> > will...not at all an issue of conservation...of course the monarch
survived
> > it, the species has no doubt survivieed thousands of such storms...and
> > perhaps even benefitted from that storm...and there are too many rumors
> > making the rounds of "dead butterflies" coming to life when normal
weather
> > conditins returned, also rumors (backed up by photos, unless these are
> > fraudulent) of certain folks trampling all over the piles of inanimate
> > butterflies, supposedly to get "evidence" of the "disaster"...
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Charles Bordelon
> > To: neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk; tils-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: leps-l at lists.yale.edu; brower at sbc.edu
> > Sent: 10/9/03 4:47 PM
> > Subject: [leps-talk] Re: Brower replies- The most recent ranting about
> > monarch butterfly conservation
> >
> > Are we to assume Monarchs are too stupid to find other sites?  All this
> > talk
> > and number-crunching is dung in the real world. What did house sparrows
> > do
> > before there were houses?  Barn swallows before barns?  Ratings,
> > ratings,
> > rantings...  So what?  You can't tell me such a successful insect
> > couldn't
> > adapt.  We'll destroy ourselves before every resource is depleted.  Go
> > to
> > the Mexican Government.  This whole Monarch business is not only moot,
> > it's
> > completely boring.  cb
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>
> > To: <tils-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> > Cc: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; <brower at sbc.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 1:49 PM
> > Subject: Brower replies- The most recent ranting about monarch butterfly
> > conservation
> >
> >
> >> Professor Brower asked me to pass on this message to these lists.
> >>
> >> Neil Jones
> >>
> >> From: Lincoln P. Brower brower at sbc.edu
> >> Subject: The most recent ranting about monarch butterfly conservation
> >> by Mr. Cherubini.
> >>
> >>
> >> To whom it may concern:
> >>
> >> To those who may seriously consider taking Mr. Paul Cherubini's
> >> October 2003 criticisms of L. P. Brower's recent (4 October 2003)
> >> lecture to the Pacific Grove Museum of Natural History in California,
> >> I suggest perusing the following three scientific papers:
> >>
> >> 1) Brower, L.P., Kust, D.R., Rendon-Salinas, E., Serrano, E.G.,
> >> Kust, K.R., Miller, J., Fernandez del Rey, C., &amp; Pape, K. (In
> >> press  2003). Catastrophic winter storm mortality of monarch
> >> butterflies in Mexico during January 2002. In: The Monarch Butterfly:
> >> Biology and Conservation (Editors. K.M. Oberhauser  M.
> >> Solensky). Cornell University Press, Ithaca.
> >>
> >> 2) Brower, L.P., Castilleja, G., Peralta, A., Lopez-Garcia, J.,
> >> Bojorquez-Tapia, L., Diaz, S., Melgarejo, D.,  Missrie, M.
> >> (2002). Quantitative changes in forest quality in a principal
> >> overwintering area of the monarch butterfly in Mexico: 1971 to
> >> 1999. Conservation Biology, 16, 346-359.
> >>
> >> 3) Bojorquez, L.A., Brower, L.P., Castilleja, G.,
> >> Sánchez-Colón, S., Hernández, M., Calvert, W.H., Díaz, S.,
> >> Gómez-Priego, P., Alcantar, G., Melgarejo, E.D., Solares, M.J.,
> >> Gutiérrez, L., Juárez, M.d.L. (2003). Mapping expert
> >> knowledge: redesigning the monarch butterfly biosphere reserve.
> >> Conservation Biology, 17, 367 - 379.
> >>
> >> The first paper (still in press) documents the winter storm mortality
> >> of overwintering monarch butterflies in Mexico that occurred in
> >> January 2002. One quarter of a billion monarchs were estimated
> >> to have been killed in two of several known colonies, all of which
> >> were impacted by a powerful and widespread storm and cold
> >> front. The second publication documents that the monarchs'
> >> overwintering forest within the 1986 presidentially decreed reserve
> >> has been degraded by 44% as well as heavily fragmented over a 28 year
> >> period, through January 1999. The third publication describes the
> >> process and rationale by which the new 2000 presidential decree
> >> increased the supposedly protected overwintering area from 62 to 217
> >> square miles. Research in progress with colleagues from the
> >> University of Mexico, NASA, Lynchburg College and Sweet Briar College
> >> indicates that extensive illegal logging is currently occurring
> >> within the supposedly protected areas. When these data are published,
> >> they will be available for public scrutiny.
> >>
> >> The exact number of years it will take for the current and increasing
> >> logging to irreversibly disrupt the migration of the monarch's
> >> eastern population is always an unknown. What we do know is
> >> that the forests within the tiny area of Mexico in which hundreds of
> >> millions of monarchs overwinter is being rapidly degraded.
> >> Denial of this is yet another example of the ostrich-like behavior of
> >> the more extreme members of the anti-conservation movement who choose
> >> to obfuscate hard scientific evidence in order to advance their
> >> political positions.
> >>
> >> Lincoln P. Brower
> >> Research Professor of Biology
> >> Sweet Briar College
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> >>
> >> http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > TILS Motto: "We can not protect that which we do not know" © 1999
> >
> > Subscribe:  TILS-leps-talk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
> > Post message: TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> > Archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TILS-leps-talk/messages
> > Unsubscribe:  TILS-leps-talk-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> > For more information: http://www.tils-ttr.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > CAUTION PLEASE NOTE: The information contained in this transmission is
> > intended to be sent only to the stated recipient of the transmission. If
the
> > reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the intended
> > recipient's agent, you are hereby notified that we do not intend to
waive
> > any privilege that might ordinarily be attached to this communication.
Any
> > dissemination, distribution or copying of the information contained in
this
> > transmission is therefore prohibited. You are further asked to notify us
of
> > any such error in transmission as soon as possible at the telephone
> > number/email address shown above. Thank you for your cooperation.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/CCYolB/TM
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> >
> > TILS Motto: "We can not protect that which we do not know" © 1999
> >
> > Subscribe:  TILS-leps-talk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
> > Post message: TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> > Archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TILS-leps-talk/messages
> > Unsubscribe:  TILS-leps-talk-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> > For more information: http://www.tils-ttr.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 


More information about the Leps-l mailing list