[leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club

John Shuey jshuey at TNC.ORG
Mon Mar 8 09:48:13 EST 2004

It's interesting the garbage people believe.

First, while I'm not the most rabid supporter of the Sierra Club, its
interesting to note that unlike most organizations, they have "true"
elections of their leadership with multiple candidates nominated by real
members - and this year's election is hotly contested and could well change
the face of the organization.  The bottom line is that here is an
organization that seems to reflect their memberships desires - and if you
don't like what's going on in the Sierra Club - then join and vote!  I'm
pretty sure that you can pick up some of the national news coverage of the
election by simply searching the internet.

Second - the tirade about the endangered species act and the "evidence"
presented are just plain ignorant!  Red Tailed Hawks - Federally Endangered
??  - not even remotely a chance.  This is a classic bait and switch
argument.  It is against the law in the country to kill ANY migratory bird
without a permit.  This particular law has nothing to do with endangered
species.  But then - ignorant people seldom check the facts - so why not
just merge the two things and re-enforce those preconceptions??

Second - at least in the Midwest, you can easily get a depredation permit by
asking a CO.  So if a farmer has solid evidence that 1.5lb bird is killing
his live stock (must be in the guinea pig farming business), then you can
indeed get a permit to kill the said predator.

Two of my favorite quotes combine nicely to sum up this type of argument.
Agent Molder of X-Files fame used to say "I want to believe".  Add in
Indiana Congressman's Earl Landgrebe famous lines "Don't confuse me with the
facts", and you have the grasping at non-sense in support of preconceptions
that I read below.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
  Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:16 AM
  To: 'monarch at saber.net'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
  Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
  Subject: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors

  The Sierra Club is just another example of the "radical environmentalist"
  movement that threatens the freedom of citizens in this country. One
  just WHO is secretly lurking behind such organizations, probably even
  unbeknown to many of the honest folks who lead these groups. Certainly
  conservation has to be at the forefront of the minds of all of us, and
  certainly IS there...But...the messages that are conveyed in their
  in which they advertise for new members (I just received one and it is now
  in the trash) are misleading and are plainly not truthful in all regards.

  For example, hearings are on-going in terms of revising the (dangerously
  flawed) Endangered Species Act...The message here in the advertisement is
  "Save all of this threatened wildlife..." which is of course the goal of
  of us...What is NOT conveyed is the other side of the coin...Here is an

  About two weeks ago I read in the Boston Globe an article (in Section 1)
  about a man is eastern Mass. who is currently (I believe that I do not
  understand this incorrectly, but I disavow any responsibility in this
  if I am in error...) being prosecuted for killing a Red Tailed Hawk (an
  "Endangered Species") which was threatening (killing) his
  first, isn't the MAN'S interest and livelihood and FREEDOM on his own
  property, first and foremost (..."...for the Common Welfare..." as was
  written in the Declaration of Independence of our Republic) above that of
  animal? And Red Tailed Hawks are now abundant in eastern Massachusetts, we
  have a colony of them in the conservation area behind our own property...I
  actually saw one near downtown Boston yesterday...So why on earth are they

  We need to write to Congress (Representatives Pombo, Walden and Cardoza)
  about the shortcomings of this dangerously flawed Act.

  And no more money for the "Sierra Club"...


  > -----Original Message-----
  > From:      Paul Cherubini [SMTP:monarch at saber.net]
  > Sent:      Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:18 PM
  > To:      leps-l at lists.yale.edu
  > Subject:      Re: Fwd: Monarch saviors
  > Richard Worth wrote:
  > >
  > > FYI.  Some good news
  > > Butterfly Bodyguards
  > > illegal logging has put the monarch's survival at risk.
  > > To its rescue has come a Mexican butterfly patrol, including
  > > 500 police as well as environmental inspectors and helicopters.
  > > So far, the effort has netted 28 illegal loggers and nearly 5,000
  > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood.
  > This Sierra Magazine article failed to inform the reader that
  > the harvested trees in this case were growing way below the
  > altitude where the monarchs cluster.  Therefore the "5,000
  > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood" did not actually represent any monarch
  > cluster habitat that was lost.  It follows that even if more of this
  > "illegal" type harvesting should occur in the future, it will not pose a
  > threat to the monarch. Thus the butterfly patrol people aren't really
  > "rescuing" the monarch.
  > You see a few years ago, American monarch biologists arbitrarily
  > enlarged the Monarch Reserve boundaries way beyond and below
  > the altitude where the monarchs cluster.  Understandably, some of
  > the local people are angry about being deprived of access to
  > large areas of forest which the butterflies don't actually need or
  > use.
  > Here is another actual case history of some illegal (apparently)
  > logging within the Chincua Monarch Reserve a few years ago
  > and my explanation as to why is it does not pose a threat to the
  > monarch: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/chincualog.jpg
  > Paul Cherubini
  > El Dorado, Calif.
  >  ------------------------------------------------------------
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