[leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors

[Grkovich, Alex]

Responses inserted...

Alex

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jonathan Sylvestre [SMTP:josylvestre at sympatico.ca]
> Sent:	Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:10 PM
> To:	leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	Re: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> 
> I think you just dont understand what i said, I will try to explain you
> 
> First, i will ignore this :
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Why?

> "But for what does "nature" exist, for what was it created? Or for
> > what specifically has Man been created? Man was created to be the
> Steward,
> > the Caretaker of nature, he was called to KNOW it, to study it, even to
> > enter into Communion with it...They were created actually, for each
> > other...Now, of course, Man was NOT created to destroy nature "
> 
> because i dont think that man was CREATED for something and NATURE was
> created for something....  
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Well, then, specifically for what do you suppose
he was created, except to be the caretaker of the Creation? What other
reason would we be here? We certainly aren't here to destroy it... I don't
see that as any great mystery, really...

> Religion have no place in scientific discutions
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Why not? If God (whoever He is, we don't have to
hash and rehash that here...) created the Universe, then He is also the
Author of Science...this is unless everything just happened by itself...this
we can all decide for ourselves...

> Just the fact that you splitted man and nature tell me that you cansider
> man
> as not a part of nature..
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Oh, he's an integral part of it! He depends upon
it, and it actually depends upon him in return. Like it or not, we are
here...Where did I indicate otherwise? 

> By the way, I dont think this is the subject.
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Well, this subject and the below subject are, I
think, inter-related, because we are speaking of man's relationship to
nature...

> First, I said that "virgin" place should be kept with limited access. That
> mean that we should keep "original ecosystems" so that we can study it,
> and
> preserve it for the next generations. 
	[Grkovich, Alex]  OK, agreed...

> Only the nature can take care of
> nature. The man can't take care of nature [Grkovich, Alex]   ...but he
> will have to learn, won't he...
>  , the man can't take care of its
> own species.. so how he can take care of million of species ???
	[Grkovich, Alex]  That IS the problem, isn't it...and it's a big
one, and fighting among ourselves will not do either us or nature any
good...
>  we just
> begin to understand how complex is the life.
	[Grkovich, Alex]  It is, for certain...
>  
> Secondly, i never said that collector cause butterflies extinctions. I
> meant
> that in some place, butterflies collecting should be limited only for
> study.
	[Grkovich, Alex]  It already is...in many places...

> Collecting butterflies help knowing them and then protect them and educate
> people.
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Agreed...

> I agree you with one point, you said :
> 
> "I hope that Jonathan is NOT saying that man
> > must be consigned, perhaps as "sub-humans" to the cities, because it
> seems
> > to me that this is precisely part of the problem...People are losing
> contact
> > with, the knowledge of, and the intimacy with, nature...People are more
> and
> > more being herded into, consigned to the (ugly) cities, where youth see
> > little more day after day than concrete, ugly buildings, and everything
> else
> > that goes along with this drudgery.."
> 
> Yes, man should keep contact with nature to know it and protect it... but
> how can 7 billion of people can have contact with nature ?  in many "Parc"
> (the parc was created for that), they have problem with to too great
> density
> of visitor... just imagine if everyone decide to go into forest tomorrow
> ???
> 
> Im sorry, my egnlish is not very well.. so maybe i dont choose the rigths
> word
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Where are you from, Jonathan? If you happen to be
from Quebec Province, then I hope to meet up with you sometime and collect
there...I have always been fascinated with the Province...

> I have a question for you, do you live in a city ?
	[Grkovich, Alex]  Yes and no...in a suburb...I don't like the big
city...I go there to work every day...Jonathan, we agree on almost
everything...!

> Jo
> 
> 
> "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE5012C9487 at NTFS2...
> > Well, I was going to just ignore this post from Jonathan (I answered him
> > off-line) as I myself am sick of this thread and also sick of certain
> > perhaps baseless remarks that I myself have regrettably made in it,
> but...
> >
> > Jonathan, perhaps unknowingly, makes a couple of statements which to me
> > appear to be in keeping with that of which Ayn Rand wrote...
> >
> > For example, Jonathan states that "virgin" places should be kept with
> "very
> > limited access"...in other words, man should be kept out of the forests,
> > away from "nature" (so that "nature", presumably should be "saved" from
> > man?)...But for what does "nature" exist, for what was it created? Or
> for
> > what specifically has Man been created? Man was created to be the
> Steward,
> > the Caretaker of nature, he was called to KNOW it, to study it, even to
> > enter into Communion with it...They were created actually, for each
> > other...Now, of course, Man was NOT created to destroy nature ( and I
> > emphasize that I DO NOT want to see it destroyed...what a terrible life
> it
> > would be without it), and in part having so done, he is in fact also in
> part
> > rejecting that high calling...I hope that Jonathan is NOT saying that
> man
> > must be consigned, perhaps as "sub-humans" to the cities, because it
> seems
> > to me that this is precisely part of the problem...People are losing
> contact
> > with, the knowledge of, and the intimacy with, nature...People are more
> and
> > more being herded into, consigned to the (ugly) cities, where youth see
> > little more day after day than concrete, ugly buildings, and everything
> else
> > that goes along with this drudgery...Man was NOT called to a "sub-human"
> > life of city drudgery; he has a higher calling in which he is to KNOW
> the
> > Creation, and to UNDERSTAND it (as it was written, "...you shall name
> > them...")
> >
> > And...of course, if man is to study nature, well, then of course he has
> to
> > continue to collect specimens for scientific study, doesn't he? Has the
> > taxonomic study of Lepidoptera in recent years declined, or expanded? I
> > would definitely say the latter...It seems to me that we are in fact at
> the
> > present time only SCRATCHING at the taxonomic study of our Butterflies
> and
> > Skippers, and even less than that on our Moths...
> >
> > And...as far as "collectors" causing butterfly extinctions are
> concerned,
> we
> > all know that numerous studies have been made by scientists including
> Paul
> > Opler, Paul Ehrlich etc. in which experiments were made, where
> deliberate
> > attempts to wipe out a butterfly colony by overcollecting in the colony
> > proved impossible...The idea of "collectors" causing extinctions of
> > butterfly species/subspecies has never been documented anywhere and must
> be
> > considered as a total myth...And the truth of the extinction of
> Mitchell's
> > Satyr in NJ is now becoming widely known..."Collectors" did not cause
> the
> > butterfly to disappear in NJ as "someone" wrote (and it probably still
> > exists there unknown to us)...it was loss of habitat resulting from
> > excessive development, and in at least one case, a colony was destroyed
> by
> > overgrowth of sedges caused by the cessation of mowing of the vegetation
> > where the colony existed (under a power line - and there is another
> rumored
> > cause of this extinction)...As it has been pointed out, "collectors"
> have
> > collected for decades in Michigan's Mitchell's colonies, without the
> loss
> of
> > a single colony, and I also hear that more colonies have been discovered
> in
> > Michigan, as well as in several other states (so just WHY is the species
> > "endangered"???)...But a freeway is NOW being planned in Michigan that
> would
> > extend RIGHT THROUGH a major colony...
> >
> > I also have the text of an interesting editorial by Dr. James A. Scott,
> > which deals with a number of these very sensitive topics...I will
> forward
> it
> > off-line according to request...
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jonathan Sylvestre [SMTP:josylvestre at sympatico.ca]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:59 AM
> > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> > >
> > >
> > > "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com> a écrit dans le message de
> > > news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE5C8B3BF at NTFS2...
> > >
> > > "why is there so much pressure from groups like the Sierra Club to
> deny
> > > people access to forests?
> > > Why in Yosemite Valle, for example, do pamphlets state that "butterfly
> > > collecting" is "ILLEGAL"? Who's behind this? You know, I agree with
> > > President Bush on selective logging...selective loggings and fire
> > > management
> > > are despeately needed...don't "orgs" such as the one we've been
> discussing
> > > know this? Why would I be denied access to and colleting of
> butterflies
> in
> > > a
> > > National Forest?  "
> > >
> > > Its the same everywhere... the problem is not can we collect
> butterflies
> > > or
> > > not ? or can we go in the forests ?  The problem is how many people
> can
> > > collect butterflies before making all species endangered or extinct ?
> And
> > > How many people can have access to the forest before making it like a
> > > ctity
> > > park on cutted grass with undred of trails everywhere etc...
> > >
> > > I think that we must keep "virgin" place with a very limited access...
> > > its
> > > the price to pay for overpopulation, if we want to keep the
> biodiversity
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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