Parasites and Monarchs

Ron Gatrelle gatrelle at
Fri Apr 8 20:23:52 EDT 2005

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hugh McGuinness" <hmcguinness at>
To: <leps-l at>
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: Parasites and Monarchs

RG wrote:  "At this point someone always chimes in that "humans" are the
problem because we are bringing about _unnatural_ changes.  This is the
silliest thing anyone can say because it renders humans as not being a
part of nature - puts us outside nature = natural process.  We are just
as natural as any other organism and we can do things that shift the
ecological balance just like anything else - from volcanoes to rain
forests to meteors to milk. "

The word "natural" loses its meaning if humans are included in nature,
at least in the sense of nature being discussed in this thread. We
distinguish between natural and synthetic (human-made) objects,

So spider webs are "synthetic".   Trails (roads) in the woods made by deer
and other critters are synthetic too then.  Silk, synthetic.  Flight,
synthetic.  Nest building, syntyetic.  Traps, synthetic.  Self defence and
weapons, synthetic.

problems, consequences because it is a very useful distinction for
understanding the state of the environment of the planet. We now have
incontrovertible proof that humans have increased the rate of
extinction, put a hole in ozone, introduced novel chemicals that have
wrought ecological havoc (e.g. thinning of egg shells by DDT to name one
of myriad examples), depleted fish stocks and altered marine and
limnological ecology, set rivers on fire, etc.

Humans are just ANOTHER primate.  What are you a creationist who thinks
humanity was put here for some special "stewardship" purpose by God?   If
not, then, this is menaingless.  Gripe at evolution for causing us to have
too danamic a brain, for being able to make better roads than deer,
structures than spides, flight than winged things, shelters than beaver,
tools and weapons than Chimps.  We don't _do_ anything other creatures do,
we just do it differently and more efficiently.   If Zebra could make
rockets to get rid of the lions they'd do it.  Then the leopards could put
them on trial for genocide before they got fired on too.

If humans are a part of nature then these problems cease to exist as
problems that require solution: "whatever humans do is just a part of
nature and therefore okay."
There is no okay or not okay in nature.  No such thing as right, wrong, and
certainly not "sin".  Nature is an organized chaos where random events
thrust everything into an unknown future. But since humans are not part of
nature, can you point to the lit. references stating where in our evolution
we ceased to be a part of nature.  What evolutionary "event" or threashold
was the passage from part of all of natutre to extranatural.   How can we
prevent any other organisms from doing this same horrible thing.

This kind of thinking is naive at best or part of a right-wing agenda to
continue with the economic policies that brought us these problems in the
first place.
No, it is YOUR human values and opinions.   Your moral views.   Nature is
without "morality", that is only found in religion.   Nature only has cause
and effect.  But, I'm glad to know that there were no problems before the
USA became a nation (since this is the causation of all the world's ills
and natural disasters).   It's also comforting to know that the left wing
communists of the USSR, Korea and Cuba etc. were / are model
environmentalists and that the left wing is only to be praised.



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