From billcor at mcn.org Fri Jul 8 00:45:50 2022 From: billcor at mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 21:45:50 -0700 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Message-ID: Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius From mg930 at eohsi.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 8 17:13:47 2022 From: mg930 at eohsi.rutgers.edu (Michael Gochfeld) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 21:13:47 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. On a different note: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. MIKE GOCHFELD ________________________________ From: Leps-l on behalf of Bill Cornelius Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM To: Leps list Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billcor at mcn.org Fri Jul 8 18:01:34 2022 From: billcor at mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 15:01:34 -0700 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know they try to put more distance between us when I chase them, but that seems like an obvious survival trait. If I come back the next day they seem to avoid me, at least they're more skittish. might be the air temp causes them to react sooner etc. but here's one data point for "friendly" behavior: A Polygonia claimed the area in back of my shop and would often cruise through when the garage door was open. finally he blundered into a big garden spider web hanging from the rafter. I liked his company and couldn't stand to let him get eaten so I carefully pulled the web off him before the spider showed up, and let him continue patrolling. the next day I was in the same spot when he came through, he flew within a foot of me and repeated the same friendly behavior with no concern even when I was moving, likewise whenever we were in the shop at the same time. Deer will drop their fauns near a road because big predators tend to avoid roads, even when the deer occasionally get hit by cars. It doesn't mean they like cars. It's hard to not-anthropomorphize intent since it's our only reference, but the same neuronal response can have a different name and still mean the same thing, we just don't have the same capacity for social expression. Do dogs Cannispomorphize? Do butterflies arthropmorphize? Somebody please offer more data points on this. Thanks Bill :) On Jul 8, 2022, at 2:13 PM, Michael Gochfeld wrote: > It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. > > On a different note: > > Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. > > MIKE GOCHFELD > > From: Leps-l on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM > To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans > > Hi List: > > I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. > > thanks > Bill Cornelius > _______________________________________________ > Leps-l mailing list > Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshuey at TNC.ORG Fri Jul 8 19:46:37 2022 From: jshuey at TNC.ORG (John Shuey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 23:46:37 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. Crows are known to recognize faces that do evil to them. See - https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760666490/crows-are-they-scary-or-just-scary-smart john From: Leps-l On Behalf Of Michael Gochfeld Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:14 PM To: Bill Cornelius ; Leps list Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. On a different note: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. MIKE GOCHFELD ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From billcor at mcn.org Fri Jul 8 21:10:28 2022 From: billcor at mcn.org (Bill Cornelius) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 18:10:28 -0700 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> Hi John: That's an interesting article. Do you know of anything similar concerning butterflies? I have a bet with a state parks ranger, but she has to prove butterflies don't remember individuals. I'm pretty sure that's an impossible proof to begin with but I still need to show something besides my own observation & opinion or she can claim default. Bill :) On Jul 8, 2022, at 4:46 PM, John Shuey wrote: > Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. > > Crows are known to recognize faces that do evil to them. See -https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760666490/crows-are-they-scary-or-just-scary-smart > > john > > > From: Leps-l On Behalf Of Michael Gochfeld > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:14 PM > To: Bill Cornelius ; Leps list > Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans > > It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. > > On a different note: > > Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. > > MIKE GOCHFELD > > From: Leps-l on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM > To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans > > Hi List: > > I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. > > thanks > Bill Cornelius > _______________________________________________ > Leps-l mailing list > Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ > Leps-l mailing list > Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu > https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jshuey at TNC.ORG Fri Jul 8 22:29:36 2022 From: jshuey at TNC.ORG (John Shuey) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 02:29:36 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> References: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> Message-ID: The closest thing I'm aware of is Heliconius butterflies "trap lining" nectar sources - meaning that individual bugs follow pretty much the exact same route visiting flowers each day. Implying that there is some sort of memory at work that spans the night. I think this came out of Larry Gilbert's Costa Rica field work back in the 80's (assuming that my memory is better than a bug's). john Please consider the environment before printing this email ________________________________ John A Shuey, PhD Director of Conservation Science jshuey at tnc.org 317.829.3898 - direct 317.951.8818 - front desk 317.917.2478 - Fax nature.org The Nature Conservancy Indiana Field Office 620 E. Ohio St. Indianapolis, IN 46202 [http://nature.org/images/emailsig_logo.gif] From: Bill Cornelius Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 9:10 PM To: John Shuey ; Leps list Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi John: That's an interesting article. Do you know of anything similar concerning butterflies? I have a bet with a state parks ranger, but she has to prove butterflies don't remember individuals. I'm pretty sure that's an impossible proof to begin with but I still need to show something besides my own observation & opinion or she can claim default. Bill :) On Jul 8, 2022, at 4:46 PM, John Shuey > wrote: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. Crows are known to recognize faces that do evil to them. See -https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760666490/crows-are-they-scary-or-just-scary-smart john From: Leps-l > On Behalf Of Michael Gochfeld Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:14 PM To: Bill Cornelius >; Leps list > Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. On a different note: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. MIKE GOCHFELD ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 53 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3343 bytes Desc: image002.gif URL: From rkuhlman at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 08:05:00 2022 From: rkuhlman at hotmail.com (Roger Kuhlman) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 12:05:00 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> References: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> Message-ID: A researcher of Butterfly behavior could well find that butterflies show no evidence for long-lasting memory of Individuals. That is not impossible and I would be surprised if it has not already been done. Roger Kuhlman Ann Arbor, Michigan ________________________________ From: Leps-l on behalf of Bill Cornelius Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 9:10 PM To: John Shuey ; Leps list Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi John: That's an interesting article. Do you know of anything similar concerning butterflies? I have a bet with a state parks ranger, but she has to prove butterflies don't remember individuals. I'm pretty sure that's an impossible proof to begin with but I still need to show something besides my own observation & opinion or she can claim default. Bill :) On Jul 8, 2022, at 4:46 PM, John Shuey > wrote: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. Crows are known to recognize faces that do evil to them. See -https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760666490/crows-are-they-scary-or-just-scary-smart john From: Leps-l > On Behalf Of Michael Gochfeld Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:14 PM To: Bill Cornelius >; Leps list > Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. On a different note: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. MIKE GOCHFELD ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jadams at daltonstate.edu Sat Jul 9 12:20:13 2022 From: jadams at daltonstate.edu (James Adams) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 16:20:13 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: References: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> Message-ID: Roger, Yes, I agree it is quite possible that someone has done some work on this. The problem may be that, if the findings were that the butterflies show no recognition of individual human beings, the results were never published. I, and many others, might find it interesting if and only if the butterflies DID show recognition of individuals, which is why, if virtually no such literature exists, then every study that has been done has shown no recognition of individuals. Again, it would seem possible only in species that set up somewhat longer lasting territories, where the butterflies were likely to encounter the same individuals on a regular basis. For species that live a very short time as adults, there would be no reason to evolve this behavior, and even in those species that do live longer, recognizing individuals of other species would have to be something meaningful in the evolution of the species of butterfly. James James K. Adams Professor of Biology, Dalton State College 706-272-4427; 678-767-5938 visit the Georgia Lepidoptera website at www.galeps.org/ [1509647971326_PastedImage] ________________________________ From: Leps-l on behalf of Roger Kuhlman Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 8:05 AM To: Bill Cornelius ; Leps List Subject: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans A researcher of Butterfly behavior could well find that butterflies show no evidence for long-lasting memory of Individuals. That is not impossible and I would be surprised if it has not already been done. Roger Kuhlman Ann Arbor, Michigan ________________________________ From: Leps-l on behalf of Bill Cornelius Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 9:10 PM To: John Shuey ; Leps list Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi John: That's an interesting article. Do you know of anything similar concerning butterflies? I have a bet with a state parks ranger, but she has to prove butterflies don't remember individuals. I'm pretty sure that's an impossible proof to begin with but I still need to show something besides my own observation & opinion or she can claim default. Bill :) On Jul 8, 2022, at 4:46 PM, John Shuey > wrote: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. Crows are known to recognize faces that do evil to them. See -https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760666490/crows-are-they-scary-or-just-scary-smart john From: Leps-l > On Behalf Of Michael Gochfeld Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:14 PM To: Bill Cornelius >; Leps list > Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. On a different note: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. MIKE GOCHFELD ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l ________________________________ DALTON STATE COLLEGE EMAIL This email message is being sent from a Dalton State College email account. The owner of this account has no authority to validate, terminate, or verify account information. If this email requests you take any action requiring you to provide your user credentials (such as clicking an embedded link), the account has been compromised and should be reported to abuse at daltonstate.edu. IMPORTANT/CONFIDENTIAL: This message contains information from Dalton State College, which may be privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, employee, or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify abuse at daltonstate.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-1509647971.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 53422 bytes Desc: Outlook-1509647971.jpg URL: From jshuey at TNC.ORG Sat Jul 9 12:42:53 2022 From: jshuey at TNC.ORG (John Shuey) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 16:42:53 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans In-Reply-To: References: <19851004-DBC7-43E6-95B0-DD66F909E31D@mcn.org> Message-ID: To build on James' statement - Heliconius are very long lived as adults (perhaps >6 months), and as I recall, the memory function about where good flowers are located was touted as an evolutionary adaptation to their long life span. But again - I remembering from papers that I read over 30 years ago.... j From: Leps-l On Behalf Of James Adams Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 12:20 PM To: Roger Kuhlman ; Bill Cornelius ; Leps list Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Roger, Yes, I agree it is quite possible that someone has done some work on this. The problem may be that, if the findings were that the butterflies show no recognition of individual human beings, the results were never published. I, and many others, might find it interesting if and only if the butterflies DID show recognition of individuals, which is why, if virtually no such literature exists, then every study that has been done has shown no recognition of individuals. Again, it would seem possible only in species that set up somewhat longer lasting territories, where the butterflies were likely to encounter the same individuals on a regular basis. For species that live a very short time as adults, there would be no reason to evolve this behavior, and even in those species that do live longer, recognizing individuals of other species would have to be something meaningful in the evolution of the species of butterfly. James James K. Adams Professor of Biology, Dalton State College 706-272-4427; 678-767-5938 visit the Georgia Lepidoptera website at www.galeps.org/ [1509647971326_PastedImage] ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Roger Kuhlman > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 8:05 AM To: Bill Cornelius >; Leps List > Subject: [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans A researcher of Butterfly behavior could well find that butterflies show no evidence for long-lasting memory of Individuals. That is not impossible and I would be surprised if it has not already been done. Roger Kuhlman Ann Arbor, Michigan ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 9:10 PM To: John Shuey >; Leps list > Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi John: That's an interesting article. Do you know of anything similar concerning butterflies? I have a bet with a state parks ranger, but she has to prove butterflies don't remember individuals. I'm pretty sure that's an impossible proof to begin with but I still need to show something besides my own observation & opinion or she can claim default. Bill :) On Jul 8, 2022, at 4:46 PM, John Shuey > wrote: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. Crows are known to recognize faces that do evil to them. See -https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760666490/crows-are-they-scary-or-just-scary-smart john From: Leps-l > On Behalf Of Michael Gochfeld Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 5:14 PM To: Bill Cornelius >; Leps list > Subject: Re: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans It shouldn't be a surprise that an insect can recognized a food-giver or a threat. Whether and how they classify these and to what extent they can distinguish individuals can be tested. How long they "remember" ----not sure. Whether they recognize visually or olfactory, and whether it is the person or the body language would be good to study. On a different note: Although everyone knows that birds are superior beings, it surprised me that Common Terns could recognize a threat arriving in an orange VW van from one year to the next and fly out to attack and stain the vehicle before the person even got out, having not seen the vehicle or person for 10 months. MIKE GOCHFELD ________________________________ From: Leps-l > on behalf of Bill Cornelius > Sent: Friday, July 8, 2022 12:45 AM To: Leps list > Subject: [Leps-l] looking for info about butterfly recognition of individual humans Hi List: I read some time ago, before fact checking was an industry, that some reared Heliconius charithonia will recognize individual people that have acted threateningly or non threateningly towards them and react correspondingly days or weeks later. Can anyone send me any info on that? My own experience with Polygonias indicates they do have that capability. I'm looking for support but any info will do. thanks Bill Cornelius _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fleps-l&data=05%7C01%7Cmg930%40eohsi.rutgers.edu%7C5fcc1203f22f4be7f8a308da609cbfec%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C637928523958446938%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QX3oKHQ%2Fhz%2Fj%2FL%2BGkSLDZ6tbpBmjJnXJ%2B7%2Fkft4fKGk%3D&reserved=0 _______________________________________________ Leps-l mailing list Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l ________________________________ DALTON STATE COLLEGE EMAIL This email message is being sent from a Dalton State College email account. The owner of this account has no authority to validate, terminate, or verify account information. If this email requests you take any action requiring you to provide your user credentials (such as clicking an embedded link), the account has been compromised and should be reported to abuse at daltonstate.edu. IMPORTANT/CONFIDENTIAL: This message contains information from Dalton State College, which may be privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, employee, or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify abuse at daltonstate.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 53422 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From rbunzie at msn.com Fri Jul 29 15:05:12 2022 From: rbunzie at msn.com (Richard Sobonya) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 19:05:12 +0000 Subject: [Leps-l] emergence of Euscirrhopterus in Arizona Message-ID: On July 27, 2022 I traveled west on Rt. 86 in southern Arizona and stopped at the unincorporated area of San Simon (Subway, gas station, general store) at about 3 PM MST. This area, especially by the store lights and gas pumps, had hundreds of Euscirrhopterus cosyra, the staghorn cholla moth. The area is low sandy desert that sometime floods; I believe monsoon rains this summer and last had spread over this area. I had never seen this moth on any previous stops. The gas station/casino at Why, Arizona, 20 miles west, had no moths. Most moths were gone by July 28 (new moon). Rich Sobonya Richard Sobonya 4957 N. Circulo Bujia Tucson Arizona 85718 "Twice happy is the man who has a hobby, for he has two worlds in which to live." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcech at nyc.rr.com Fri Jul 29 15:17:41 2022 From: rcech at nyc.rr.com (rcech) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:41 -0400 Subject: [Leps-l] emergence of Euscirrhopterus in Arizona In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5fdd5c00-0d30-4ad4-8a3d-16f1ac096e91@DM6NAM12FT064.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com> Cool, bit I guess the obvious followup question is Why Not Why?Sent from my T-Mobile 5G Device -------- Original message --------From: Richard Sobonya Date: 7/29/22 3:05 PM (GMT-05:00) To: leps-l at mailman.yale.edu Subject: [Leps-l] emergence of Euscirrhopterus in Arizona On July 27, 2022 I traveled west on Rt. 86 in southern Arizona and stopped at the unincorporated area of San Simon (Subway, gas station, general store) at about 3 PM MST. This area, especially by the store lights and gas pumps, had hundreds of Euscirrhopterus cosyra, the staghorn cholla moth. The area is low sandy desert that sometime floods; I believe monsoon rains this summer and last had spread over this area. I had never seen this moth on any previous stops. The gas station/casino at Why, Arizona, 20 miles west, had no moths. Most moths were gone by July 28 (new moon). ? Rich Sobonya ? Richard Sobonya 4957 N. Circulo Bujia Tucson Arizona 85718 ? ??? ?Twice happy is the man who has a hobby, for ???? he has two worlds in which to live.? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: